Aeijtzsche's Annual Assortment of potentially unsolvable BB mysteries.

[guitarfool2002]

I think that the info in the liner notes assigning the two mandolins is actually because of Carol Kaye mishearing the accordion triple-bellow shake as Mandolins for her song-by-song commentary.  They took her input very seriously.

As for this:

4. Regular 6 string electric doubling the bass. This part sounds like a Telecaster to me simply doubling the bass, similar to what Don Peake did later on J5's "I Want You Back" with his Tele. Same tone. It's best heard on the arpeggios right near the line "but let's talk about it" just before the drum fill back into the regular groove for the ending.

I believe that this is the Dano bass.  My reason for thinking there's a dano bass on the track at all is based on a very short moment near the end of the session where the player rolls down the open strings, e-b-g-d-a- down to low, bass e.  After I heard that, I wondered what it was doing, and figured that it is the bass that plays the arpeggios.  Then I noticed that the bridge bassline actually really fattens up, so I believe the dano doubles the bassline exactly there, playing exactly what presumably Carol and Lyle are playing.

I understand the time factor - I'm up against that as well - but if you get a chance and could send me an idea of where on the session tapes I can hear this, I'll check it out. I didn't make it through all of them last night, but when I heard those arpeggios being doubled on those tapes of the bridge, it hit me as a Telecaster sound, and I wouldn't say this if I had not spent a great deal of time transcribing Don Peake's Tele double of Wilton Felder on the Jackson 5 cut a few years ago, and that has nearly the same blend of sounds - especially when you hear it isolated from the track. The notes on WIBN aren't as "tic-toc" sounding as a Dano usually is, but I'm definitely not ruling anything out.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Ok.  Not sure what track it is on the CD, but on it is entitled "(Take 17-20)" by the SOT people, start at about 2:25 in--the take breaks down and you hear the basses and piano go for a bit and then as it's breaking up you hear the acoustic guitar do a slow strum, then in the left channel the "dano" goes down the open strings, although it stops at low A.

We also get a pretty good crack at the acoustic there--definitely not an octave mandolin or something.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Also, and credit must go to Scott here for pointing this out to me, but just listening for a few minutes trying to find that spot:  Why is it so hard for whoever is playing the lick to get it just right?  If this is Barney Kessel playing a guitar, you would think he could: a) get it in tune.  b) get the notes to ring properly.  Even up that high on the neck.  And you know what--it still just sounds weird.  It really does sound like some weird ukelele from space sometimes.  But when whoever it is is just noodling, it doesn't sound quite as odd.

One photo could have saved all this trouble!

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Is this a photo from the WIBN session?  If so, why are there so few from it?  It more or less has to be either WIBN or IJWMFTT.  Is that Steve Douglas?  Looks like they're still setting up and learning the parts?




Also interesting side note part 59:  Carl thought that the intro to WIBN was a harp, at least for the interviews quoted in the Box Set booklet.

[bossaroo]

it certainly sounds like a mandolin. or two for that matter.

I think Kessel played the mando-guitar in the photo.
he was really a guitarist, which might explain the issues with his playing., and it's possible Brian liked the slightly out-of-sync tuning on the mandolin

[guitarfool2002]

Is this a photo from the WIBN session?  If so, why are there so few from it?  It more or less has to be either WIBN or IJWMFTT.  Is that Steve Douglas?  Looks like they're still setting up and learning the parts?




Also interesting side note part 59:  Carl thought that the intro to WIBN was a harp, at least for the interviews quoted in the Box Set booklet.

Thanks for the track info, and please re-post the photo! Nothing appeared in the actual post.

Just for comparison, I listened to the version played in Michigan '66, and whether it was Al or Carl trying the intro, they played it wrong. I thought hearing a live version close to the source - where Brian would have probably taught them the actual part to play live, would be neat to hear but that didn't happen. Now my obsessiveness will lead me to track down all live versions from 66-67 to compare them to the original.

A few later live versions (90's and beyond) doubled the guitar with keyboard. Didn't like that too much.

[Jay]

I wonder if it was an actual harp, but a really old one? Listen to Harpo Marx of The Marx Brothers play. I can occasionally hear that weird echo in the harps that he played that is in the WIBN intro. Yeah, I know....I'm probably way off. It's just an idea.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

http://s3.postimage.org/bw5xfxt8a/bw001.jpg

What happens if you cut and paste that?

[guitarfool2002]

http://s3.postimage.org/bw5xfxt8a/bw001.jpg

What happens if you cut and paste that?

And there is the photo! Thanks! I agree with the timing of it, obviously Gold Star, Pet Sounds-era to my eyes, and wish there were more like it...

Also notice the headphones lined up in front of the monitor to the right (as Hal wore for WIBN), and a flute and clarinet case on top of the upright piano behind Douglas, if those offer any clues.

[OBLiO]

@guitarfool... that full picture showing the headstock is great. And yeah it looks like a custom Gibson... if it doesn't have a name it should be called a Gibson 12-string "Ring-a-Ding"... possibly factory ordered.

@aeijtzsche that little star spangled banner thingy... I tried finding a spot for it in WIBN but it doesn't really fit anywhere... maybe it was something they were trying to fit into the sustaining G chord...

@jon stebbins and andrew.... the credit for bass on the doors album went to Ray Manzarek, but I thought Larry Knechtel played bass on some of those tracks. Also, the Good Vibrations line she plays in the trailer... I thought that part was on guitar and palm-muted... then the bass comes in on the walk down. I need to listen again. There is an L.A. Weekly article where the claim she played on Light My Fire is made, too. On the "giving the benefit of the doubt" front, I did a theatre gig where shows were recorded and then used later on cd's given to the band as reference. I found myself asking is that me or the other bassist on a particular recording.  We had to create our own bass lines because we were reading piano charts and I don't remember playing this or that. I guess for her she remembers playing everything.  I agree, it needs to be researched.

@ebbandflow your vids are great... hope it was okay to put a link up. Question: where does the info come from regarding the recording of the guitars? That they were recorded in the control room and direct to console. Doesn't mean a mic couldn't be used in the control room, but if the guitar is custom it could have an output, as well.

[Andrew G. Doe]

@jon stebbins and andrew.... the credit for bass on the doors album went to Ray Manzarek, but I thought Larry Knechtel played bass on some of those tracks. Also, the Good Vibrations line she plays in the trailer... I thought that part was on guitar and palm-muted... then the bass comes in on the walk down. I need to listen again. There is an L.A. Weekly article where the claim she played on Light My Fire is made, too. On the "giving the benefit of the doubt" front, I did a theatre gig where shows were recorded and then used later on cd's given to the band as reference. I found myself asking is that me or the other bassist on a particular recording.  We had to create our own bass lines because we were reading piano charts and I don't remember playing this or that. I guess for her she remembers playing everything.  I agree, it needs to be researched.

Don't know as much about The Doors as I did back in the 80s, but all bar one track on The Doors has Ray's Fender Rhodes Bass instead of a real one, and the other one isn't CK. A friend of mine asked her about that several years ago, and according to him she modified her story and said she got confused and that it was the Blue Cheer single version she played on, an excuse which is so full of holes as to be laughable (assuming my friend wasn't pulling my leg, of coruse). Apparently a pukka bass player was later called in to beef up Ray's bass on the QT, but they were male.

As for her presence on the released "GV", my source for that is impeccable. And posts here. 

[Ebb and Flow]

I lean towards the Brian at Gold Star '66 photos being from the IJWMFTT session, but that's a gut feeling based on absolutely no evidence.  If there were more photos of the musicians you could know for sure.  Is the complete photo set available on a site like Getty or elsewhere?  Even if someone could get a hold of watermarked low-res images it might be possible to figure out which session they were taken at.

@ebbandflow your vids are great... hope it was okay to put a link up.

Of course!  I just don't want anyone to go away thinking that I claim to be a total expert on these matters...I yield the floor to Josh and the two Craigs when it comes to these things, and it's always fascinating to read their insights.

Question: where does the info come from regarding the recording of the guitars? That they were recorded in the control room and direct to console. Doesn't mean a mic couldn't be used in the control room, but if the guitar is custom it could have an output, as well.

From listening to the session tape for WIBN it's made clear that Hal is wearing headphones in order to hear the guitars to know when to hit the first beat (He even gets pissed at Brian for yelling into the talkback mic!).  I think this is part of what makes the "ringy-ding" guitar sound present on Pet Sounds so unique, but obviously the instrument used is key to that as well.

[OBLiO]

@jon stebbins and andrew.... the credit for bass on the doors album went to Ray Manzarek, but I thought Larry Knechtel played bass on some of those tracks. Also, the Good Vibrations line she plays in the trailer... I thought that part was on guitar and palm-muted... then the bass comes in on the walk down. I need to listen again. There is an L.A. Weekly article where the claim she played on Light My Fire is made, too. On the "giving the benefit of the doubt" front, I did a theatre gig where shows were recorded and then used later on cd's given to the band as reference. I found myself asking is that me or the other bassist on a particular recording.  We had to create our own bass lines because we were reading piano charts and I don't remember playing this or that. I guess for her she remembers playing everything.  I agree, it needs to be researched.

Don't know as much about The Doors as I did back in the 80s, but all bar one track on The Doors has Ray's Fender Rhodes Bass instead of a real one, and the other one isn't CK. A friend of mine asked her about that several years ago, and according to him she modified her story and said she got confused and that it was the Blue Cheer single version she played on, an excuse which is so full of holes as to be laughable (assuming my friend wasn't pulling my leg, of coruse). Apparently a pukka bass player was later called in to beef up Ray's bass on the QT, but they were male.

As for her presence on the released "GV", my source for that is impeccable. And posts here. 

Real quick so we don't get too off topic for the thread... oops too late... I just listened to the stereo version of Light My Fire and there is a bass in the right channel... the key bass is in the left channel. I have an idea for a time machine that involves collecting light particles from any given time and reconstructing any scene from the past and playing it like a movie. But will it work?

Just listened to Good Vibrations and I still hear that line as guitar... it sounds like a bass where the tape is damaged. The bass comes in on the 2nd half of the verse. That line is bass? I am sleepy so maybe I need to try again tomorrow.

[OBLiO]

@ebbandflow Ok thanks. Yes... the ringy ding is the thing... I like this board, too.

edit: fixed quote

[Chris Moise]

Don't know as much about The Doors as I did back in the 80s, but all bar one track on The Doors has Ray's Fender Rhodes Bass instead of a real one..

Ray's piano bass was recorded with the basic track but Larry Knetchel was brought in to overdub bass guitar on several songs. Soul Kitchen, 20th Century Fox, Light My Fire, I Looked at You and a few more have a real bass plus Ray's piano bass. Listen to the I Looked at You intro...that bass sound screams wrecking crew.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

I wonder if it was an actual harp, but a really old one?

[c-man]

I wonder if it was an actual harp, but a really old one? Listen to Harpo Marx of The Marx Brothers play. I can occasionally hear that weird echo in the harps that he played that is in the WIBN intro. Yeah, I know....I'm probably way off. It's just an idea.

If it was an actual harp, I think Brian would have said so when he was asked what it was.  Instead, he said "It's two guitars - one played high up on the neck and the other one played regular".  That still leaves open the possibility that at least one of the guitars was a "special" model.  For modern-day Brian, that's a pretty indepth answer.  I'm well aware that he sometimes gives stock one-word answers, but he's oftentimes very informative when it comes to explanations about specific sounds on their records.  I recall a radio interview he did in '88 or so with the late great Timothy White.  Brian made a point of explaining how they got the opening sound on "Do It Again" by putting a very small milisecond delay on the drum. 

[c-man]

Just listened to Good Vibrations and I still hear that line as guitar... it sounds like a bass where the tape is damaged. The bass comes in on the 2nd half of the verse. That line is bass? I am sleepy so maybe I need to try again tomorrow.

On the RELEASED version of "Good Vibrations", the main line played behind Carl's vocal is played on a Fender bass (by Ray Pohlman) up high on the neck.  The second bass line that comes in hafway through the verse is the upright bass, played by Lyle Ritz.  There is no guitar on that part of this version of the song (a later alternate version has Carl playing that main line on his guitar, but none of that was used in the 45 edit).  There WERE two guitar players on the session that produced the track used for the verses in the final version, but they were tacet until the choruses, and those choruses weren't used.     

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

I wonder if it was an actual harp, but a really old one? Listen to Harpo Marx of The Marx Brothers play. I can occasionally hear that weird echo in the harps that he played that is in the WIBN intro. Yeah, I know....I'm probably way off. It's just an idea.

If it was an actual harp, I think Brian would have said so when he was asked what it was.  Instead, he said "It's two guitars - one played high up on the neck and the other one played regular".  That still leaves open the possibility that at least one of the guitars was a "special" model.  For modern-day Brian, that's a pretty indepth answer.  I'm well aware that he sometimes gives stock one-word answers, but he's oftentimes very informative when it comes to explanations about specific sounds on their records.  I recall a radio interview he did in '88 or so with the late great Timothy White.  Brian made a point of explaining how they got the opening sound on "Do It Again" by putting a very small milisecond delay on the drum. 

Yeah, it's very clear from the session tape that it's not a harp--but that so many people think it is (Including Carl Wilson ipse) drives home my point about how strange a sound it is.

I suspect Brian would go into more detail if caught in the right mood and asked in a musicianly way.  I've always thought the best way to interview Brian would be to do it with the interviewer and Brian at two keyboards, and the interviewer should be a decent pianist.  The interviewer could play little riffs--which I think would get Brian talking a bit more.  If a future interview of Brian brought out a 12-string and said to Brian something like: "So the intro to WIBN is quite famous, and rightly so--you always manged to evoke new sounds, so much on this that a lot of people think it was a harp, or keyboards.  Is it true that it's just a regular old guitar played up high, like this?  (interview plays lick here.)"

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Just listened to Good Vibrations and I still hear that line as guitar... it sounds like a bass where the tape is damaged. The bass comes in on the 2nd half of the verse. That line is bass? I am sleepy so maybe I need to try again tomorrow.

On the RELEASED version of "Good Vibrations", the main line played behind Carl's vocal is played on a Fender bass (by Ray Pohlman) up high on the neck.  The second bass line that comes in hafway through the verse is the upright bass, played by Lyle Ritz.  There is no guitar on that part of this version of the song (a later alternate version has Carl playing that main line on his guitar, but none of that was used in the 45 edit).  There WERE two guitar players on the session that produced the track used for the verses in the final version, but they were tacet until the choruses, and those choruses weren't used.     

That Fender bass sound is just classic Ray Pohlman, too.  I've never been able to definitively tell if that great sound he gets is all palm muting or if the built-in Fender mute colors the sound as well--I get pretty close with palm muting.  But just listening to GV then comparing that with IJWMFTT or Here Today, and you can tell it is the same player.  Carol doesn't quite get the same sound, even when she goes for it.  Which she certainly doesn't when she demonstrates the line these days, going for a much smoother sound.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

OK, after even more listens thru of the complete session, I'm more convinced than ever that it's just a 12-string guitar.  Hearing the noodling and more than anything, the tuning, sometimes it sounds almost like a strat, twangy even. 

So that leaves a few questions nonetheless, if I'm right.  Why is it hard for the guitarist to get quite right?  It is kind of a tricky lick, but not for BK.  Was Jerry Cole playing it and for some reason having a hard time of it?  Why does it sound so strange up there that people think it's a harp?

Still good questions--It really would be great to know exactly what instrument, even if it's just a type of guitar, that plays the line.  I wish I knew what those guy's go to 12-string electric was in those days.

[guitarfool2002]

I also listened late last night (free time... ) to the full session tapes. I couldn't get a few things out of my mind, and some have already been touched on by others since last night. Here it goes, bear with me:

Contained in this thread there are people posting who are authorities in the areas we are discussing. C-man is the go to guy and the authority on the session info and the AFM contracts from these dates. Who played what, and when it was recorded, and that information can be clarified to the "Nth" degree by C-man. Josh literally wrote the book on the WIBN session, as detailed and as lovingly researched as any info about any Beach Boys session that has ever been done. Ebb and Flow has a fantastic visual and audio resource, well-researched and fact-based, through the "Behind The Sounds" video on the song. Others - musicians, researchers, studio people, people who have recorded similar parts, have added their 2 cents as well.

After all of this, are we any closer to answering the original question, namely who is playing what and what are they playing on that intro? It felt like it all came around in a loop, and the bottom line remains we still think two 12-string electric guitars played that part. We've looked at AFM sheets, listened to every session tape available, and it feels like we're at the starting gate again. Brian said as much, that two 12-string electrics played that part.

I'm almost confident after hearing from folks who I'd consider authorities or at least very knowledgeable with Gibsons and mandolins in general to say that the instrument in the photo was a custom made instrument done by Gibson, and used by Barney to play and read  mandolin parts using familiar guitar shapes. Just like a 6-string banjo - the sound is there, the notes can be read and played in standard tuning, yet it's not an "authentic" banjo to do Scruggs-style rolls and whatnot. Exactly the vibe of a hybrid mandolin like the one Barney is holding. One post I've read suggested Gibson would go out of their way for Barney to fill requests or make something custom for him: At the time Barney was among the elite of jazz guitarists, and he was a Gibson endorser as well as having his own signature model guitar in Gibson's line.

And I'm also 99% confident that the instrument Barney is holding in the photo was not used to play the WIBN intro, above all because it appears to be an acoustic instrument. I think if we were to ask Barney's sons about this, it might confirm information about that particular instrument rather than the actual session.

I'll have more on Barney in a bit.

My thought is this: Can we make an appeal to those who collect, gather, and research BB's photos and vintage artciles and news clippings for anything related to the studio in this time period, anywhere around early 1966 when Pet Sounds was being recorded? Maybe there is a photo somewhere, a lost photo of something from an obscure fan magazine, that could at least clarify some questions, perhaps a photo of Jerry Cole playing a certain model guitar or Barney playing something that would tie it together. Or even something that went "unused" through the various Pet Sounds reissue projects which might shed some light. I'd like to think something exists which hasn't been widely seen that could help.

Does that sound like a possible "next step" to take in this research?

[guitarfool2002]

Listen to this segment:

Just before take 17, someone is noodling bebop jazz runs on the 12-string. Someone on the studio floor - right channel - around 12 seconds into the tape says "Hey, hold down the noise in the booth!", and after that - in the left channel, Carol Kaye laughs, then a bit later says something that sounds like "it got quiet in here, but...(trails off)". And one of the 12-string players starts clowning around with the intro, deliberately playing it wrong, which makes the musicians on the floor laugh.

Question: If the two 12-strings were direct into the board ready for a take, and Hal needed headphones to hear them play the intro, how were the players on the studio floor hearing the noodling and playing going on in the booth? Were they wearing headphones as well, or was it as simple an answer as the guys in booth were being heard through the playback monitors in the studio between takes? The only thing you'd normally hear without headphones would be Brian or Levine getting on the talkback, which is why Hal needed the headphones to time his entrance after the guitar intro.

Just wondering...

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Bebop runs that sound awfully Kesselesque, eh?

I think it must be a combination of the talkback and Hal maybe pantomiming going deaf or something.  In the beginning, a couple of people on the floor comment about how they can't hear when to come in and Hal says "watch me and you'll know."

[guitarfool2002]

Bebop runs that sound awfully Kesselesque, eh?

I think it must be a combination of the talkback and Hal maybe pantomiming going deaf or something.  In the beginning, a couple of people on the floor comment about how they can't hear when to come in and Hal says "watch me and you'll know."

Bebop for sure!

There is a quote in the Guitar Player article where Tommy mentions the noise you'd have in the booth when these guys were together. "When we got Billy Strange, Glen Campbell, and Jerry Cole at a session you couldn't hear yourself think. One would be playing loud, and the others would be showing off, trying to outdo each other. It was like World War III..."

It sounds like the WIBN session at times! Noodling and more noodling on the 12 strings. At least the one guy is practicing the actual part.

What caught my ear was their reaction on the studio floor to the 12 string guitars playing that way...they seemed to be hearing that noodling on the studio floor, and without headphones how would they have heard a direct signal? I thought Hal was the only one who could hear them with his 'phones.

And, upon listening again, who was playing that "Star Spangled Banner" based riff? I know I've heard that in a song, but cannot remember the song or artist. Whoever it is at Gold Star plays it over and over again, just riffing it constantly on what seems like every break between takes. That had to get annoying...but maybe it was an "in joke" of some kind? Knowing what that damn riff is from could solve that!