BWPS: How much input did Brian have?

[Andrew G. Doe]

Brian did ALL of his work on SMiLE in 1966-67; he never re-visited it again for any length of time. 2004's BWPS was the work of Darian Sahanaja, Jeff Foskett, and some Van Dyke Parks.

Van Dyke Parks would never, ever, ever have had anything to do with this if it had been the level of sham you suggest. He would have steered miles clear of it, if it had been a sham or a charade to resurrect Brian's career. He has far more integrity than that.

I think Jeff's involvement was minimal.

For the record, my involvement was also minimal. 

[rb]

Does anyone have a copy of the old post, I forget which board it was on, regarding an early (BWPS) tracklisting that included "Time To Get Alone" and "Diamondhead"?  That story is fascinating, as well.  Who came up with this early list?  If Brian, did he simply change his mind, or did someone talk him out of this lineup?  I would like to know more about what went down early in the process.

Prayer/Time To Get Alone /Bicycle Rider / Link/ Diamond Head/ Worms / H&V / Holidays / Link / Old Master Painter / Sunshine / Wonderful / Link / Cabinessence / Link / Wind Chimes / Fall Breaks / Veg / Fire / Dada / Cool Cool / Workshop / Surf's Up

The list I recall seeing was a bit longer, had at least one song included twice (aside from "Link", that is) and was most decidedly not in Brian's hand. Also, it was not a BWPS tracklisting per se, but a proposed live running order. It's a suble difference, but an important one. I understand that there were at least two proposed track orders before the one they finally settled on.

Yer absolutely right... try this instead:

Prayer/Time To Get Alone /Bicycle Rider / Link/ Diamond Head/ Worms / H&V / Holidays / Link / Old Master Painter / Sunshine / Wonderful / Link / Look/ Link / Child / Link / Cabinessence / Link / Wind Chimes / Fall Breaks / Veg / Fire / Dada / Cool Cool / Workshop / Surf's Up ... I missed a line of it on the lil'scrap of paper upon which the list is kept, waiting for the day when I finally assemble it (like I'll ever get around to it.)

[Roger Ryan]

Andrew wrote:
Well, Brian's famed for saying things that are, shall we say, less than completely accurate, merely because he thinks it's what the other party wants to hear.

This is what bothers me about the Darian/Brian sequencing sessions.  Darian is a fan and was involved in Priore's book, and presumably shares some of the same preconceptions about Smile and its' sequencing as Priore.  Brian, wanting to please Darian, no doubt picked up cues from him as to how he thought it should go, and may have gone along with it "because it's what the other party wants to hear."  I don't think it's a coincidence that the Priore sequence is followed with only a couple of exceptions (Surf's Up, I Wanna Be Around/Workshop), that Wind Chimes is air, Dada is water, etc. 

But there is no way to ignore the 37 years in between the original conception of "SMiLE" and the completion of BWPS. The myth, speculation, bootlegs, Dominic Priore, the other Beach Boys and the entire music industry had an influence on how the album was completed and received. As has been stated a number of times, BWPS was a reimagining of the original sessions, not an attempt to restore or reconstruct what the original concept was. The cool thing is that it works. The new lyrics bring a whole new dimension to the material and the sequencing plays beautifully. Neither Priore nor anyone else publically proposed the second movement which is pure brilliance. "On A Holiday" was in the first movement for a while until it was decided to move it to the third. The whole "Workshop" must come after "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" theory was ignored. "Sunshine" became an unpredictably perfect intro to "Cabin Essence"; "Good Vibrations" became the surprise finale. Also, it might be pointed out, that while the third movement contains the tracks we have all associated with "The Elements", only "Mrs. O'Leary Cow" is specifically associated with an element; neither Brian, Darian nor the liner notes try to convince the listener the third movement is an "Elements Suite". BWPS is certainly influenced by the expectations built up over time, but the new twists Brian, Darian and Van Dyke put in there kept the project fresh, vital and complete.

Looking at the original proposed line-up posted above, I'm really glad the sequence mutated to what it is now; that original line-up reads more like the ordinary fan's mix tape (apart from the admittedly bizarre choices between "Prayer" and "H & V" anyway).

[Wilsonista]

Brian did ALL of his work on SMiLE in 1966-67; he never re-visited it again for any length of time. 2004's BWPS was the work of Darian Sahanaja, Jeff Foskett, and some Van Dyke Parks.

Van Dyke Parks would never, ever, ever have had anything to do with this if it had been the level of sham you suggest. He would have steered miles clear of it, if it had been a sham or a charade to resurrect Brian's career. He has far more integrity than that.

I think Jeff's involvement was minimal.

How about "non-existant"?

And thank you, Jon. You posted exactly what I wanted to post on the subject.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Brian did ALL of his work on SMiLE in 1966-67; he never re-visited it again for any length of time. 2004's BWPS was the work of Darian Sahanaja, Jeff Foskett, and some Van Dyke Parks.

Van Dyke Parks would never, ever, ever have had anything to do with this if it had been the level of sham you suggest. He would have steered miles clear of it, if it had been a sham or a charade to resurrect Brian's career. He has far more integrity than that.

I think Jeff's involvement was minimal.

How about "non-existant"?

And thank you, Jon. You posted exactly what I wanted to post on the subject.

Since it was my original quote (Old Rake did not list the source), I will respond.

The BWPS CD is a note for note reproduction of the live presentation from February 2004. I have no documented proof ( I don't think we're supposed to have any), but I have to believe that Jeff Foskett had SOME input into the live presentation, therefore, would automatically give him input into the recorded version.

Also, Old Rake said that Van Dyke Parks would never, ever, ever, have anything to do with it if it was the level of sham I suggested. Just to clarify what I said - the sham was making it appear that Brian was FINISHING IT. When Van Dyke Parks saw the competency that Darian displayed upon meeting, you probably couldn't keep Van Dyke Parks away. I'm sure he was very aware of the publicity this was going to generate. 

Also, buddhat said, "I think it's tempting to be cynical and treat the whole thing as a fraud, just because being a Smile fan always seems to go hand in hand with frustrations and disappointments". No, I don't consider myself a cynic, just a realist. In my heart, I truly wished that Brian would've made a significant contribution to the production of 2004's BWPS. I simply believe that Brian's significant contribution was 3 or 4 days in the studio singing lead vocals. From what I've recently read (and observed from Brian's recent TV appearances), I don't think he's finished very much for a long, long time.

[endofposts]

For the benefit of those that didn't read the 13 page interview with Darian at CrutchfieldAdvisor.com, I'm quoting a section here.  Specifically, on the subject of Darian working with Van Dyke Parks and Brian.  It would seem that Brian was more involved that some would claim, unless Darian isn't telling the truth (the interviewer is Lindsay Planer):

LP: What was it like working with Van Dyke Parks?

DS: Whew! Man. Well, I just saw him again last week at the CMJ panel discussion . . . anyway, he is from another era. What a gem of a human being.

LP: I always considered his aura as a 21st Century Mark Twain.

DS: Right on, totally. He is so eloquent and there again is an example of another iconoclast who was into his own thing. I was sort of worried that they [Van Dyke Parks and Brian Wilson] were both gonna be weirded out by revisiting this. Maybe they were both feeling as if they were past that point in their lives when they could no longer identify with where they were in 1967. I noticed it when they got together for the first time — well, let's be clear, he came because Brian asked him.

LP: Just like in 1967.

DS: Exactly. I found out somewhat later that Van Dyke was also very wary of what was going on. He was concerned about what was happening to their music.

LP: Because of past experience dealing with The Beach Boys' camp?

DS: Yes. But, see, you talk to him now and he is so relieved. That was a word that he used over and over when we were working. He'd say, "I have such a sense of relief . . . this is such a relief!" And I really didn't understand what he meant at the time because all I wanted to do was just to respect the integrity of what they were doing. That was my primary concern and focus. I'd sort of take notes and at that juncture, all we wanted was to perform it live.

So, my role was to try and facilitate their ideas. They wrote the notes and words and I just figured out what was feasible within the context of our band, the voices, and instrumentation. We'd review a piece or a link for instance. I'd play it from my iBook, they would hear it. Brian might hum the melody line and then the next day Van Dyke would come back with the lyrics. I never questioned if they were new or vintage. He would just come in scratching his head saying, "Here is an idea I had about this and that and how it could connect here or there."

LP: How about the lyrical tag at the end of "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow?"

DS: Now, at the time, that seemed to me to have been a brand new idea, although the concept was something that he [Van Dyke Parks] had always wanted to express. It was important to Van Dyke that this be a moment of cleansing and it was extremely important that it be the voice of Brian Wilson.

LP: There are a couple of sections and even some completed songs that were introduced as part of the SMiLE-era canon. We obviously can't say they were meant for SMiLE, since it did not tangibly exist. But for instance, why was "He Gives Speeches" left off?

DS: I have no idea. It was one of the tracks that I played to Brian and he just said "Nah, junk that, I don't want it." I didn't question it any further. I liken it to a cinematic director filming a bunch of scenes for a movie and there is going to be some stuff left on the cutting room floor. That's how I looked at it.

LP: Is the same thing true of the "rock with me Henry" lyrics to the song "Wonderful?"

DS: Again, I played that for Brian and he didn't like that either. That was probably yet another variation and a lot of the SMiLE music really is a lot a variation of themes. "Wind Chimes" has all sorts of recurring different variations — it was just where Brian's head was at the time. He sort of, without knowing it, created this new modular approach to recording with "Good Vibrations."

He just wanted to try different grooves, different instrumentation, and different tempos. It was maybe one idea and he'd go over it and over it and spend a whole day just working on a riff. Then the next day, he'd come in and work on another riff.

And it was like that for "Heroes And Villains," "Wind Chimes," and "Vega-Tables," and any host of the songs. They would cut variations of it in hopes that Brian would put it all together in a way that made sense. However, he wasn't able to do that back then.

[Wirestone]

Brian finished Smile.

We can twist around as much as we want, but the damn thing is finished.

What's more, it's finished in a better and more complete way than many would have ever hoped.

As for Brian's contributions --

Brian worked with Van and Darian to put it together. Brian presented the album live. Brian was in the studio as tracks were recorded and played keyboards.

Brian sang backup and lead vocals.

Sure, he had nothing whatsoever to do with it. Right.

[Andrew G. Doe]

No-one ever said he had nothing to do with BWPS. We're just questioning the extent of his involvement, based on what others involved have said in public. That's all.

And no, it's not finished. A version has been presented, but it can never be finished.

[Sheriff John Stone]

As for Brian's contributions --

Brian was in the studio as tracks were recorded and played keyboards.

Since the recording of the CD was a note for note reproduction of the live presentation, what were Brian's contributions in the studio as the tracks were being recorded, if he was in fact in the studio AS THE TRACKS WERE BEING RECORDED, not after?

And what parts of what songs did Brian play keyboards on? I'm not denying that he played something, that way they can list his name on the musician's credits.

[Ron]

for instance, why was "He Gives Speeches" left off?

DS: I have no idea. It was one of the tracks that I played to Brian and he just said "Nah, junk that, I don't want it." I didn't question it any further.

That pretty much tells the story right there, doesn't it? 

[Wilsonista]

No-one ever said he had nothing to do with BWPS. We're just questioning the extent of his involvement, based on what others involved have said in public. That's all.

And no, it's not finished. A version has been presented, but it can never be finished.

Why isn't it "finished"? I mean the original composeer and the original lyricist added elements that weren't there in all of those bootlegs right?

If Van Dyke had never been involved with the 2003 work, then I would absolutely agree with you. But bringing him in changed everything. Dramatically.

[Wilsonista]

Brian did ALL of his work on SMiLE in 1966-67; he never re-visited it again for any length of time. 2004's BWPS was the work of Darian Sahanaja, Jeff Foskett, and some Van Dyke Parks.

Van Dyke Parks would never, ever, ever have had anything to do with this if it had been the level of sham you suggest. He would have steered miles clear of it, if it had been a sham or a charade to resurrect Brian's career. He has far more integrity than that.

I think Jeff's involvement was minimal.

How about "non-existant"?

And thank you, Jon. You posted exactly what I wanted to post on the subject.

Since it was my original quote (Old Rake did not list the source), I will respond.

The BWPS CD is a note for note reproduction of the live presentation from February 2004. I have no documented proof ( I don't think we're supposed to have any), but I have to believe that Jeff Foskett had SOME input into the live presentation, therefore, would automatically give him input into the recorded version.

Also, Old Rake said that Van Dyke Parks would never, ever, ever, have anything to do with it if it was the level of sham I suggested. Just to clarify what I said - the sham was making it appear that Brian was FINISHING IT. When Van Dyke Parks saw the competency that Darian displayed upon meeting, you probably couldn't keep Van Dyke Parks away. I'm sure he was very aware of the publicity this was going to generate. 

Also, buddhat said, "I think it's tempting to be cynical and treat the whole thing as a fraud, just because being a Smile fan always seems to go hand in hand with frustrations and disappointments". No, I don't consider myself a cynic, just a realist. In my heart, I truly wished that Brian would've made a significant contribution to the production of 2004's BWPS. I simply believe that Brian's significant contribution was 3 or 4 days in the studio singing lead vocals. From what I've recently read (and observed from Brian's recent TV appearances), I don't think he's finished very much for a long, long time.

First point. I think it is an insult to Van Dyke Parks to insinuate that he was gleefully waiting for a huge payday.  Am I reading that correctly? You would think Parks would set side his integrity for the sake of getting some publicity and gain out ofBWPS? The man is the complete opposite of Mike Love. Parks has always conducted his career with the utmost integrity.  For Mike, "will it sell" is always the first notion. For Parks, that doesn't even enter into the equation.

And Brian's contribution to BWPS was it was his music. So what if he didn't do the fucking grunt work? Darian did that. I'll share a story with you that explains  my opinion on the subject.

My wife and I were fortunate enough to have spent some time with both Darian and Probyn Gregory in New Orleans after Bran's show at Jazzfest last year. (it was gumbo at the Gumbo Shop in the French Quarter, but I digress) I, of course was peppering Darian with questions about the SMiLE CD and he was happy to indulge me. Dee (who keeps pretty quiet around discussions like this) flat out asks Darian (I had been telling her about the comments over the last 2 and a half years about Brian's true involvement with the project) "what do say to those who say the CD is just Darian's fanmix?" He looked shocked as hell. Probyn then interjected, "Darian's track list might be more interesting than what we did play". Darian asks "what do you mean by 'Darian's fanmix?" I explain the rumours and the scutlebutt and the cynicism. He responds, "I was just doing what I was told. Every decision was Brian's". Darian, of course did the hard work or researching the material which he then presented to Brian, but it was ultimately Brian's decision. Nobody did it for him. It wasn't Melinda approving of the final sequencing,  it was Brian.

[MDC]

Very interesting thread - in fact it prompted me to register and post after lurking for awhile. For whatever it is worth (see AGD's earlier post above) in my Katrina charity call from Brian I  asked him which parts of the 2d movement were newly written (I was thinking of the melody lines in SFC and CIFOTM). He immediately answered that oh no, the 2d movement was all written back in the 60s. I then asked specifically about the melody in the verse of CIFOTM and he said that it was written in the 60s. Before I could ask anything more the conversation was over. Now who knows, maybe Brian was thinking of the chorus to Child or the basic track or whatever, but I like to think that the melody in fact was original and would have been sung by Dennis.
Also, what Darian said about uncovering Child vocals was that he could hear in the headphone bleed a whole additional layer of background vocals, not a melody line. I also remember reading about him finding the clarinet line in SFC, but I can't remember where I read it. Love this thread, keep it going.

[Glenn Greenberg]

Great story about Darian and Probyn, RobMac.

Thanks for sharing it!

[c-man]

Bottom line..."SMiLE" wasn't finished in the '60s.
It was finished in the 2000s.  By the same guys who started it.  Assisted by a
huge fan/musician.
It was then performed live, in its newly-finished entirety, and then recorded again
from scratch, and released.  To huge acclaim.

End of story.

OK, now you all may continue.

[buddhahat]

Thanks MDC and Robmac for your posts.

It's very reasurring to hear Darian's reaction to the idea that it was his fanmix and this does lend creedence to the hope that this is predominately Brian and VDP's work imo. It's also fascinating to hear that Brian has said that the 2nd movement, melodies etc., were all already there in the 60s. Of course he may be mistaken but this does imply that these 'new' melodies could well be vintage 66/67. I agree Dennis would've sounded great singing that Child lyric!

Also, Sherrif John Stone, I didn't wish to imply that having reservations about the authenticity of BWPS automatically makes one a cynic. I have just read some very cynical posts and these have effected my perception of BWPS. I've ended up questioning the authenticity of the album which makes listening to it less of a pleasure. I have the same experience when listening to the original sessions sometimes - the 'what might have beens' cloud my enjoyment of the music. To hear that Darian inists this is predominately Brian/VDPs work is reassuring and renews my love for BWPS!!

[Sir Rob]

Yes, it is re-assuring.  But then, as Mandy Rice Davis said...no, no, banish the thought!

[Rocker]

I guess Brian and Van Dyke think that Smile may be finished, but there's no question that it would be another album in the 60s. What they finished is Smile '04 and not Smile'66/'67

[Jeff Mason]

One clarification ---

Andrew's in one sense wrong -- as a composition, Smile was most certainly finished by the release of BWPS.

As an album, the 1966/7 sessions cannot and will not ever be finished.

The structure of the music is done but the production is not finishable.

Keep this distinction in mind as you discuss.  It is vital.  Carry on.

[LostArt]

Yeah, see, that goes back to what I said earlier.  Of course we got SMiLE 2004, because that’s when it was assembled for presentation to us.  Yeah, it would have been different in October, 1966.  It would have been different still in December, 1966.  And it would have been different again in April, 1967.  But it was left unfinished.  They didn’t get it done.  It really is a shame.  It would have been fantastic.  There is really nothing that can be done, 40 years later, to ‘finish’ those original recordings.  We will never hear a ‘SMiLE ’66-’67’, because it doesn’t exist (unless Brian has a ‘special’ reel of tape stashed away somewhere).  I think Brian and Van Dyke, with Darian’s help, gave us the next best thing.  I know some of you folks find the new recordings unlistenable, but I think it’s great.  Seeing Brian and the band perform this music live was, hands down, the best concert experience that I’ve ever had, and I have seen some good ones in my nearly 50 years.  That said, c’mon box set.

[rb]

Is there enough material, in the opinion of those who have heard the vast majority of the 66/67 tapes, to construct what could be deemed a completed SMiLE album right now? (My definition of 'completed album' is pretty loose, but it wouldn't include the versions of songs heard on 20/20 or Surf's Up.)

[Jeff Mason]

Is there enough material, in the opinion of those who have heard the vast majority of the 66/67 tapes, to construct what could be deemed a completed SMiLE album right now? (My definition of 'completed album' is pretty loose, but it wouldn't include the versions of songs heard on 20/20 or Surf's Up.)

No.  Too much unfinished.  Surf's Up, Do You Like Worms, etc.

[Old Rake]

First point. I think it is an insult to Van Dyke Parks to insinuate that he was gleefully waiting for a huge payday.  Am I reading that correctly? You would think Parks would set side his integrity for the sake of getting some publicity and gain out ofBWPS? The man is the complete opposite of Mike Love. Parks has always conducted his career with the utmost integrity.  For Mike, "will it sell" is always the first notion. For Parks, that doesn't even enter into the equation.

I could not agree with that more. If you honestly think Van Dyke was in it for the payday or the publicity, or if it was just a matter of "wow, that Darian's pretty good, I guess let's finish it with him then" then YOU DO NOT KNOW VAN DYKE PARKS, full stop. I said it before and I'll say it again: Van Dyke Parks would NEVER have been involved with the completion of this album if it had been any kind of sham to make it seem like Brian was active again. NEVER EVER NEVER.

The whole thing was a raw wound with Van Dyke in his life. He would have not for one second revisited it unless he felt it was 100% done with purity and integrity, and that his co-writer was anything but 100% involved.

You are welcome to ask him yourself.

And further: of COURSE this album reflects the subsequent history of Smile, and of COURSE it reflects some of the stuff that Priore believed, via Darian Sahanaja. Further, it reflects just some interesting musical connections that the collaborative folks made NOW, in 2004 or whatever. And it probably also reflects some stuff from 1966 or 67 that we just weren't aware of. And there's probably a goodly chunk of stuff that Priore was just RIGHT about. Its all of the above, and its place historically necessitates that it is all of the above.

It was NOT EVER meant to be an accurate rendition of "What Smile Would Have Looked Like In 1967."

What I don't understand is why that MATTERS to people. Is it good? Is it listenable? Your milage varies, but I'd say absolutely, yes, it is. It is a listenable, coherent, cogent rendition of a composition partially written in 1966 and partially written in 2004 in the style of 1966. It is a recorded performance of "SMILE: THE COMPOSITION."

If you want to trace the album's roots historically, and absolutely that still matters to me, that's something wholly seperate from the modern album, and always should be. There's a lot we can learn from the modern Smile in terms of certain historical things -- like the vintage melody on "Worms" and the likely-vintage one on "Child" and the possibly-vintage one on "Dada," for example. But is it EXACTLY HOW IT WAS SUPPOSED TO GO BACK THEN?

Of course not. It couldn't be. It shouldn't be. It should reflect how the artists, at the time they rendered it, felt about the material.. Otherwise its not an honest album.

[JRauch]

Fascinating topic!

One thing that I love about "BWPS" is the fact that there are a lot of references to it´s one history. For example the pirates/bootlegers on "On A Holiday" and of course Brian's prayer at the beginning of "In Blue Hawaii". Or the little links between some tracks that are a variation of other parts. I think these references are enriching the album a lot. They add another dimension. You could say that the album is not only about american history or the elements, but also about itself.

And am I the only one who thinks that the second movement was MEANT TO BE? It fits and flows so well that it's impossible for me to imagine a different order.

[Cam Mott]

Darian asks "what do you mean by 'Darian's fanmix?" I explain the rumours and the scutlebutt and the cynicism. He responds, "I was just doing what I was told. Every decision was Brian's".  

Did he mean it was Brian's decision to use Darian's fanmix?