New Mike interview in HuffPost

[Jim V.]

Does anybody know which 13 songs Mike asked for credit for, but was denied?

[SurfRiderHawaii]

Is it just me are just about all the Mike lovers/Kokomaoists from the UK?   Maybe having lived their lives in such gloomy weather, they have really bought into Mike's "Summer in Paradise" fantasy. 

My big problem with Mike (and he is an asshole, I've met the guy off script and personal) is that he has cemented himself as a traveling nostalgia act when he could recording and touring still as the Beach Boys and still be relevent. That's my opinion.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Summer In Paradise fantasy?

I can tell you, as an LA native who grew up in Manhattan Beach: it's really not a fantasy!

Go bike riding down the strand on any 4th of July (past many spots name checked in their songs) and it's nothing but Beach Boys blasting from decks, the beach, cars!

Not a fantasy in the least and classic Beach Boys will never really be nostalgia. Never ever. And it will always be relevant.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

Summer In Paradise fantasy?

I can tell you, as an LA native who grew up in Manhattan Beach: it's really not a fantasy!

Go bike riding down the strand on any 4th of July (past many spots name checked in their songs) and it's nothing but Beach Boys blasting from decks, the beach, cars!

Not a fantasy in the least and classic Beach Boys will never really be nostalgia. Never ever. And it will always be relevant.

Damm you Mira Costa High. There goes that theory. Ha.  Hey, I went to Redondo High Pinder. Small world.

K, you get a full pass on being any kind of Kokomaoists!

[CenturyDeprived]

guitarfool, do you think Brian Wilson ever felt sorry or bad or sad that Mike Love did not get the credit and royalties for the songs that Mike contributed to?

I'm not guitarfool, but I'll chime in on this too... I almost think that in the first few years of the band, and even in the years preceding the band's formation, BW + ML likely developed a dysfunctional relationship which was dictated by their personalities. ML being more dominant, and BW being more passive and wanting to avoid conflict. I think ML has a bully streak in him. That's an outside observation, and I say that having known bullies in my life... feel free to tell me how crazy I am for saying such a thing, but that's what it seems like to me.

So I'm guessing that BW already had some brewing longstanding resentment in the back of his mind against ML in some fashion, which only grew in the mid 60s when the two men's artistic differences (and views for what the direction of the band should be) grew apart more and more. But I speculate that the seeds of this were already in BW's head years earlier than '65/'66 when they really started butting heads. Maybe this even went back to their childhoods. I assume that in the late 1950s, BW + ML 's relationship pre BBs must have shared some similarities with how their relationship evolved/devolved to when the band + money + fame came into play.

We're talking personalities that clash, but they are family, and that just complicates the sh*t out of everything.  So I think that, based on a resentment for being psychologically bullied to some degree, however small, that 1960s BW probably didn't feel as sorry or bad as he would have otherwise (if ML's personality were different). 1960s BW probably knew it was a f*cked up situation that wasn't fair to ML (which it certainly wasn't), but again, in avoiding conflict as was BW's pattern, he just didn't want to touch the hairy situation with a 10-foot pole. And of course, that doesn't make it right.

I really, really doubt it was any kind of black-and-white evil concerted effort to screw someone over for years, but more something that included many factors, like BW thinking "this person has f*cked with my artistic vision and has given me emotional hardships to some degree, so why am I gonna make some kind of effort to fix this". I sincerely think this likely approximates some of the thoughts that BW had about ML at the time. I empathize with this resentment, though its very existence is simply my educated guess. ML defenders can say all they want about how this is untrue, but nobody except BW can know for sure. And sadly, even if BW categorically stated this is/was the case, there would be people saying he was being fed the answer. And the messed up thing is, since BW's latter-day answers (like on Beautiful Dreamer) are doubted by many people (for real, legit reasons of thinking he is being fed some answers), it enables history to be re-written by people with different agendas, and further complicates the wacky BBs story, which is almost like a SMiLE puzzle in and of itself.  

Murry's ethical shadiness on business dealings (despite his letters to BW stating how ethically sound a father he was) must've rubbed off on BW to a degree, but I think a big part of the equation was BW having some resentment against the person (ML) who was being legitimately wronged by being uncredited for years. And certainly, who knows how much of ML's "questionable" behavior over the years stems from his own resentment (which he apparently kept inside for 30 years) about the unfair songwriting credits situation? Those feelings don't just stay inside someone. They are gonna come out, TM or no TM. Basically, how much of everything on both sides is due to grudges?

So tragic how dysfunctional family behavior (from many sides) has been a huge thorn in the side of this wonderful band (duh, but I felt it needed to be said anyway).

Just an outsider's humble opinion.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Summer In Paradise fantasy?

I can tell you, as an LA native who grew up in Manhattan Beach: it's really not a fantasy!

Go bike riding down the strand on any 4th of July (past many spots name checked in their songs) and it's nothing but Beach Boys blasting from decks, the beach, cars!

Not a fantasy in the least and classic Beach Boys will never really be nostalgia. Never ever. And it will always be relevant.

Damm you Mira Costa High. There goes that theory. Ha.  Hey, I went to Redondo High Pinder. Small world.

K, you get a full pass on being any kind of Kokomaoists!

If it helps, I was not particularly loyal to Mira Costa as most of my friends eithdr went to Redondo High, Hawthorne High or PV High

Cheers: fellow South Bay kid!

[SurfRiderHawaii]

Summer In Paradise fantasy?

I can tell you, as an LA native who grew up in Manhattan Beach: it's really not a fantasy!

Go bike riding down the strand on any 4th of July (past many spots name checked in their songs) and it's nothing but Beach Boys blasting from decks, the beach, cars!

Not a fantasy in the least and classic Beach Boys will never really be nostalgia. Never ever. And it will always be relevant.

Damm you Mira Costa High. There goes that theory. Ha.  Hey, I went to Redondo High Pinder. Small world.

K, you get a full pass on being any kind of Kokomaoists!

If it helps, I was not particularly loyal to Mira Costa as most of my friends eithdr went to Redondo High, Hawthorne High or PV High

Cheers: fellow South Bay kid!

How bout your boardwalk on the 4th of July.  Now, that was quite the party.  Maybe still is.
I had friends everywhere, even Torrance High, Ha. Good basketball around there cept Morningside always kicked our butts.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Does anybody know which 13 songs Mike asked for credit for, but was denied?

In a Goldmine interview with Mike - forget the year, might be 1992 - the number of songs was 79, and one specific title mentioned that didn't make the cut was "Surfin' USA".

My big problem with Mike (and he is an asshole, I've met the guy off script and personal) is that he has cemented himself as a traveling nostalgia act when he could recording and touring still as the Beach Boys and still be relevent. That's my opinion.

I've met Mike 'off screen' as well, and for more than 10 minutes, and my experience was entirely different: so, who is 'right' here ?

Relevant ? The Beach Boys in toto haven't been relevant since, oh, 1973. Brian isn't 'relevant'. Done some fine, outstanding work since 1999 but nothign's altered the course of music as it did back in 1963-66.

OK, that's my contribution for the day - I'm off to a village in Wiltshire to go see a 14th century tithe barn and a possibly 9th century, indisputably Saxon, church. Why ? Because I want to. I'm just a rock & roll animal, huh ?  

[Iron Horse-Apples]

Again I'll try reason.

To me, this is nothing to do with lawsuits and royalties. It is to do with this. I'm being told I'm wrong to have an opinion of someone. In no uncertain terms.
Whether you like someone or not is an entirely subjective thing based on your personal moral compass.

An example, which happens to be true.

My wife and I both know someone who never shuts up. You literally cannot get a word in edgeways.

I don't mind. I find this person interesting and to me its a harmless character flaw.

My wife cannot stand this person and finds her behavior the height of rudeness.

Now according to Cam Motts argument, someone needs to be wrong here. He has consistently said so.

No one side is going to convince the other of anything, or find common ground if it has boiled down to "I'm right and your wrong"

(Yes, I know I had that exact exchange with Cam. I was joking. I thought he was as well. Frighteningly it seems he was not)

The best we can hope to achieve is "Lets agree to differ"


And I also have a message for Pinder.

I've agreed what a lot of what you, and some others have said. In no way have I questioned your tastes or said you're wrong to think as you do. I think your basic premise of "Mike is an arsehole, so what" would be a great place to wrap this up.

I in no way associate your's, or Dancing Bear's, or any of the other people who have raised valid points with Cam Motts inane ramblings. Personally I would be highly embarrassed if he were the poster boy for my argument.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

Well, what else Mike did showed himself not to be the man of spiritual integrety he likes to portray himself. Quite the opposite.

Quite a different situation than posing for photos in your formal gear. Gee, since BRIMEL nixed you AGD, your nose has turned a Love-ly shade of brown.  

[Nicko1234]

I have to admire the way that you guys continue to drag this out. Especially as the group members are not interesting people. They've led interesting lives but are not interesting people. Hard to think of many comments that any of them have made in interviews that have been intelligent, perceptive, groundbreaking etc. I reckon Mike would piss himself if he saw how much attention was being paid to a promotional interview he has probably already forgotten.

The music is all important...

[Mike's Beard]

Look, with all due respect, any opinion can be debated into becoming a fact if the parameters are restricted to what the person with the opinion says they should be. ... That's a convenient way of shutting down anyone who disagrees with whatever the topic is or was.

And that's the preferred tactic of Kokomaoists near and far.

You have to understand what a great guy Mike is -- as long as you use this special, narrow perspective that excludes the nonstop parade of shittiness he's pelted Brian Wilson and Carl Wilson and Dennis Wilson and Al Jardine with for the last 50 years.

But do you not see a double standard? Mike may have a asshole streak in him but what about the guy who f***ed his brother's and bandmate's wives, beat his women up, had a child with his underage cousin and became an alcoholic mess who would disrupt concerts with his drunken, abusive behaviour - why should this guy get a free pass while Mike's less than admirable qualities are put under the microscope every time the guy's name comes up?
Or how about the guy who had an affair with his wives sister while fantasizing about their other underage sister, tried to give hard drugs to his children, cut his children out of his life for years and didn't lift a finger to stop a bandmate being cut out of songwriting credits he deserved, back at a time when he still generally had his mental facilities intact - same deal?

This debate over credits has nothing to do with liking or disliking someone (BTW I'm fans of ALL the BBs), it's about right and wrong and Mike getting the shaft over songs he wrote lyrics to is wrong. Feel free to dislike Mike, that is not the issue here.

Who's ever said Mike's a great guy?

No one other than maybe Bruce?

Mike is an asshole in a band full of assholes in a profession full of assholes. End of story. If you can't deal with that, Pet Sounds/Smile are there for you to focus on while I get 50 years of great stuff

Nicely put; the only guy who seemed like an out and out nice guy all the time was Carl.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

I don't think anyone's saying they should get a free ride.  I offered some reasons as to why they possibly do though about 5 pages ago.

Why don't you start a thread criticising Brain and Dennis and see how it pans out? Serious suggestion.

[Mike's Beard]

Because (a) I'm fans of both of them and couldn't possibly harbour the level of hatred Mike's detractors seem to have in spades needed to justify my time in doing so and
(b) the outcome would be all too predictable anyway as anyone labelled 'Wilson' seem to be placed on such a pedestal, that for many their actions seem to be above criticism. Read back on this thread for details.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

No, you read back on the thread. Read all the posts where I've said I don't hate Mike. Read all the posts were I've tried to take the middle ground. Read all the posts were I've said "lets agree to differ"

Actually why bother when you can just keep rehashing the same arguments ad nauseum?

And for me the thread is very much about like and dislike and being told my subjective view is wrong. Me and Pinder both. We're the only two on here who seem interested in resolving this amicably.

[Mike's Beard]

 So is my subjective view wrong Stephen? Can I pull that card everytime someone disagrees with me? And the phrase "agree to disagree" becomes worthless when you then again jump into the discussion with gusto to state your views. You also seem to think I have you tagged as a 'Myke hater/basher', clearly you are not but they certainly exist and often without any foundation in reality . Not so much on this board, but within the internet they are legion.

I do struggle to understand why some people hate the guy so much. I tend to reserve my hate for people that have pissed me off in real life, not some old guy from a rock band, thousands of miles away. Can he be a douche? For sure. Do I roll my eyes whenever he mentions the word 'humble' in the same sentence when talking about himself? Absolutely. Do I think TM is a pile of sh*t and wish he'd shut up talking about it? Pretty much.
However in Mike I'm not looking for a best friend, a potential husband or life teacher, but as a guy who fronts my favourite band he pretty much fits the bill. To quote what Pinder has already said "Mike can be an asshole, so what?"

[Iron Horse-Apples]

So is my subjective view wrong Stephen? Can I pull that card everytime someone disagrees with me? And the phrase "agree to disagree" becomes worthless when you then again jump into the discussion with gusto to state your views. You also seem to think I have you tagged as a 'Myke hater/basher', clearly you are not but they certainly exist. Not so much on this board, but within the internet they are legion.

Of course your view isn't wrong, I take it that was rhetorical and I hope I haven't made anyone feel their view is wrong (unless they've tried to do so to me)

And yes, I keep being pulled back in despite telling myself not to.

I don't like the mindless youtube / bloo crowd either. A minority on here though will peg you as a Myke hater if you voice the slightest critism. I'm fully aware this cuts both ways though.

I do struggle to understand why some people hate the guy so much. I tend to reserve my hate for people that have pissed me off in real life, not some old guy from a rock band, thousands of miles away. Can he be a douche? For sure. Do I roll my eyes whenever he mentions the word 'humble' in the same sentence when talking about himself? Absolutely. Do I think TM is a pile of sh*t and wish he'd shut up talking about it? Pretty much.
However in Mike I'm not looking for a best friend, a potential husband or life teacher, but as a guy who fronts my favourite band he pretty much fits the bill.

Absolutely. And as has been said, he's an arsehole, but he's our arsehole.

Even if we do limit ourselves to the rights and wrongs of the courtcase, this is still subjective. Legally he hd every right to sue Brian. I can think of a million legal rulings though which have been morally questionable. For me, I find it abhorrent that Mike could sue the person to whom he owes everything. There is no way I'd ever do anything like that. If folk disagree with that, that's fine. Just depends how you view things. It all comes back to this.....

My wife and I both know someone who never shuts up. You literally cannot get a word in edgeways.

I don't mind. I find this person interesting and to me its a harmless character flaw.

My wife cannot stand this person and finds her behavior the height of rudeness.

[Nicko1234]

Absolutely. And as has been said, he's an arsehole, but he's our arsehole.

Even if we do limit ourselves to the rights and wrongs of the courtcase, this is still subjective. Legally he hd every right to sue Brian. I can think of a million legal rulings though which have been morally questionable. For me, I find it abhorrent that Mike could sue the person to whom he owes everything. There is no way I'd ever do anything like that. If folk disagree with that, that's fine. Just depends how you view things. It all comes back to this.....

Unless you've been in that position, I'm not sure how anyone could make that assertion with any certainty.

When Spandau Ballet started out I doubt the other members ever thought they would sue Gary Kemp but they did.

The same goes for The Smiths drummer taking Morrissey and Johnny Marr to court.

When people think they have been screwed in business then everything else goes out of the window...

[Mike's Beard]

Again, for me it wouldn't be about the money (and I say this as someone who is never going to have a fraction of the money Mike Love has) but just wanting people to know that I wrote the words for songs as great as California Girls. Maybe for some it was a stoop that Mike waited for Brian's legal team to do all the legwork of taking a huge publishing company to court and only staking a claim for what was his after a favourable ruling, but again, if Brian had done the right thing back in 1965 none of this would have been necessary.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

Unless you've been in that position, I'm not sure how anyone could make that assertion with any certainty.

Well, I'm talking about what I would or would not do in a given situation, so yes, I can make that assertion with certainty. My scruples would not allow me to sue the person to whom I owed my success.

Whether you believe me or not is an entirely different matter.

[Cam Mott]

Anyways, some of us are starting to get personal so.....

Still don't see how the timing of the suits delegitimized the claims. Brian's claims were valid even though it had been decades and he had never previously filed a claim. What happened still happened regardless of the timing of the suit.  Mike's claims were still valid for the same reasons and just as Brian did he presented his evidence and a jury made an award. And again has not Brian admitted that Mike was wronged?  Brian was the guy working directly with Mike, Brian was also the co-publisher,
Brian signed the forms without Mike credited, and Brian says he knew Mike was not being properly credited but....we still have Murry. We'll always have Murry.  Here's lookin' at you kids.

[KittyKat]

I don't understand, at all, why anyone would think that Brian should never be sued by people who "owe him everything." He's not God. And actually, Brian owes the Beach Boys quite a lot for helping him make hit records (not just Mike, the entire group). Brian never had a hit without the Beach Boys, either by himself or producing other people. There must be something about the sound of their voices, because Brian used the same session musicians on his outside productions. Also, the Beach Boys toured while Brian stayed home. It's not just  a matter of them making money that they sent back to Brian, but the fact they kept the band in the public eye by doing that. Heck, they were doing TV appearances without Brian due to his not wanting to do them, and for those who don't get the connection between touring and record sales, they surely must understand why TV appearances are important. And yes, if I did perform work that would otherwise have helped me pay the bills had I received proper credit, I would sue.  I agree with the point that Mike shouldn't have waited so long to sue. I also think he shouldn't have needed to sue. But Brian and/or Murry didn't credit him.  If people like Ray Kennedy had that right to pursue a remedy get their name put on a Brian Wilson song, then so did Mike.

[guitarfool2002]

Does anybody know which 13 songs Mike asked for credit for, but was denied?

In a Goldmine interview with Mike - forget the year, might be 1992 - the number of songs was 79, and one specific title mentioned that didn't make the cut was "Surfin' USA".

That must have been before the lawsuit was officially drawn up, because every news account I've seen, video and print, cites the "35 songs" as the ones Mike won the case on, and that number was shaved down from 48 in the initial claim. Maybe the 79 was the original number and the legal team decided they couldn't prove that many so they trimmed the list.

Or maybe Mike was either mistaken or exaggerating in that interview, as it's more than double what he eventually won in court.

Here's a December 14, 1994 AP report of the lawsuit with those details:

[Nicko1234]

Well, I'm talking about what I would or would not do in a given situation, so yes, I can make that assertion with certainty. My scruples would not allow me to sue the person to whom I owed my success.

Whether you believe me or not is an entirely different matter.

Well as you presumably haven't been in the situation, no you can't.

I'm sure many men before they get married say that their scruples would not allow them to be unfaithful. I'm sure they believe it just as you believe what you're saying. Doesn't make it true though...

[Andrew G. Doe]

Quite a different situation than posing for photos in your formal gear. Gee, since BRIMEL nixed you AGD, your nose has turned a Love-ly shade of brown.  

Wore the penguin suit because that was the dress code for Henley. Totally not my choice. As for your amusing insistence that I'm in some/any way being shunned by BriMel, well that would be pretty hard for them to do seeing as there's never been any connection there anyway: quite the reverse, as anyone with any true grasp of the situation knows. But you keep on thinkin' Butch, that's what you're good at.