Hey Little Tomboy/MIU Brian

[Jim V.]

So onto a VERY important topic, "Hey Little Tomboy".

Anyways on two places on Wikipedia, it says something about it being composed in 1974. I'm like 98 percent positive that isn't true, but whoever put that, did it twice, and must have some reasoning. Anybody got any info?

Also, what the hell was up with Brian's voice during MIU? Or basically just "Wontcha Come Out Tonight" and "Match Point of Our Love". How did he sound so smooth? Is there any real info on that?

[adamghost]

Two reasons Brian sounded smoother would probably be denial of access to cigarettes and very canny mixing (compare the MIU and CHRISTMAS mixes).

[Jim V.]

Really ? Losing the cigs did that for him? Shoot.

Didn't landy make him quit again in 82? cuz i can't say his voice really sounded that much better by BB85 or BW88 though. i mean he sounded pretty good on Imagination and Smile but yeah, he still didn't have that same smoothness.

As far as the mixing, i'm sure they used some trickery, but at that time, there was only so much they could do to make him sound good. The technology just wasnt there. So its still quite an achievement that he sounded like that, especially after hearing something like "Back Home" or "Love is a Woman".

[adamghost]

True, but if you listen close, his vocals aren't quite as good as they seem on first blush.  And you could do a lot in the '70s to cover things up, multiple punches, triple tracking, all manner of reverb.  The only voice technology we have now that wasn't available in some form in the late '70s was pitch correction...one big difference was that Brian wasn't at the helm for M.I.U. so there was probably a more concerted effort to get better vocals out of Brian, and to get them to fly in the mix, than for LOVE YOU and 15 BIG ONES.  I've heard the outtakes of Brian's leads for LIGHT ALBUM and KTSA and they are almost uniformly ass, so whatever he got back for MIU was transitory.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Yeah but right after MIU he was back to the same old Brian.

As far as the second Landy era...notice how he got a somewhat stronger falsetto back for a while. Then, in 1991, he began smoking again. He quit in 1994, but the damage had already been done. Compare his vocals on the *original" Rainbow Eyes, or "Someone to Love" to anything from OCA. He lost all power behind his voice.

[Jim V.]

True, but if you listen close, his vocals aren't quite as good as they seem on first blush.  And you could do a lot in the '70s to cover things up, multiple punches, triple tracking, all manner of reverb.  The only voice technology we have now that wasn't available in some form in the late '70s was pitch correction...one big difference was that Brian wasn't at the helm for M.I.U. so there was probably a more concerted effort to get better vocals out of Brian, and to get them to fly in the mix, than for LOVE YOU and 15 BIG ONES.  I've heard the outtakes of Brian's leads for LIGHT ALBUM and KTSA and they are almost uniformly ass, so whatever he got back for MIU was transitory.

I mean its obvious (to me at least) that his voice on those two MIU tracks was still closer to 15BO and LY than the stuff before. And he still sounded like balls on "Hey Little Tomboy". Which was ok on Love You because the songs were good. And that falsetto on "She's Got Rhythm" is just...yuck. But yeah, I know all about punching in, reverb, and all that, and it can't actually change your voice. I'm not arguing, but I'm just saying you can only make somebody sound so good. And after hearing Brian on those albums or after on the LA demos and KTSA, you wouldn't think its the same guy. It somewhat leads you back to that conclusion that maybe it was all a game on his part; although honestly I don't think it is.

[Ganz Allein]

Another thing to consider is that on Matchpoint, Brian's vocal attack is softer. It seems that when he'd really go for it on a vocal back then, the phlegm and croaking started coming out, along with a loss of control. Also, smoking really diminishes your lung capacity, so if Brian quit smoking temporarily during the MIU timeframe, that definitely would've helped.

But I suspect that maybe Brian really was deliberately pushing his voice back then to the point where it was difficult to control - maybe a passive-aggressive reaction to the "Brian's Back" campaign and being forced to tour.  At times during that era (e.g., parts of Love You, the Mike Douglas show), it sounded like Brian had forgotten good phrasing and vocal attack techniques. But when you listen to some of the Love You demos, parts of A/C, or even the Cocaine Sessions, you hear Brian's deeper voice, but it's much more controlled and clear.

[Jim V.]

Another thing to consider is that on Matchpoint, Brian's vocal attack is softer. It seems that when he'd really go for it on a vocal back then, the phlegm and croaking started coming out, along with a loss of control. Also, smoking really diminishes your lung capacity, so if Brian quit smoking temporarily during the MIU timeframe, that definitely would've helped.

But I suspect that maybe Brian really was deliberately pushing his voice back then to the point where it was difficult to control - maybe a passive-aggressive reaction to the "Brian's Back" campaign and being forced to tour.  At times during that era (e.g., parts of Love You, the Mike Douglas show), it sounded like Brian had forgotten good phrasing and vocal attack techniques. But when you listen to some of the Love You demos, parts of A/C, or even the Cocaine Sessions, you hear Brian's deeper voice, but it's much more controlled and clear.

This brings me to another question, how exactly did he "forget" his phrasing and vocal attack techniques? Because I mean, you can just tell by listening to something like the original H&V and then the '04 version. He just doesn't do it like he used to. Whereas, Dylan may not have the same voice he has, but he still has that ability to phrase his lyrics in that special way he always did (or however he wants). Brian doesn't seem to have that control. Do you think he purposely just became less disciplined? Because you can't blame it on the 80's Landy treatment, since its been happening since like the mid 70s. I dont know.

[runnersdialzero]

As someone else said - I really, really do think the fact that he had stopped with the coke and cigarettes and was all around much healthier was causing his voice to revert back to how it was before, although obviously it'd never be quite the same. I also really, really, really don't think any amount of reverb or any kind of studio trickery could have made Brian sound THAT good on MIU.

After he started smoking and doing drugs again, his voice again suffered, but by that point enough damage had been done that it would never sound like it would again on MIU.

Concerning the difference between his voice on the two songs mentioned here and "Tomboy", the latter was mostly recorded a while earlier while he still had his Love You style of voice going on.

As far as his discipline and phrasing - this happens over time with most singers, really, Dylan is an exception. Given Brian's huge history of mental illness and drugs and the sh*t that Landy was giving him, I think it's natural that his voice has gotten a bit more slurred and lacking in control over time.

Also - Brian leads on rough mixes of the LA stuff? What's out there?

[Jim V.]

Runners, I don't think there were any songs on LA that were supposed to have Brian on leads. I think they were just referring to demos like "I'm Begging You Please", which although being a pretty decent tune, definitely does not have some of the better BW vocals I've ever heard.

[Sheriff John Stone]

If Brian's MIU vocals were "covered up" by things like multiple punches, triple tracking, and reverb, it's a shame nobody thought of that for 15 Big Ones/Love You and after MIU, because he never sounded that good again. Here all along I thought it was the stopping of smoking, the stopping of cocaine use, and just basically getting his voice back into shape through recording and touring. I also thought he might've been relaxed for the MIU sessions, which was evident on the Our Team documentary.

I recently wrote about MIU in a recent thread about initial reactions when albums came out, but I'll reiterate here since it's a specific thread on Brian's vocals. I first became a fan in 1974 when my sister bought Endless Summer, and in 1975 when my buddy bought the Spirit Of America 8-track for his car. So, the only Beach Boys' music I was exposed to was the the early stuff - with classic Brian Wilson vocals. Imagine my shock when the first two "new" Beach Boys' albums I bought were 15 Big Ones and Love You.

I was obsessed with what happened to Brian, specifically his voice. I watched in horror and amazement in 1976 when Brian appeared on Mike Douglas, Saturday Night Live, and the NBC-TV special. It was as if I had my own private mantra - thiscantbethesameguywhowroteand sangthoseoldbeachboyssongs. Of the millions of Beach Boys' fans around the world, I felt that nobody was as obsessed with Brian's "condition" as me. Keep in mind that at that time there was no internet, message boards, or YouTube, so you had very limited access to what was going on with the group. So, from April 1977 to October 1978, all I had to go on were the hoarse vocals from 15 Big Ones and Love You. I tried to look for bright spots, signs if you will, that Brian could still sing. There was the falsetto on "In The Still Of The Night", his high part on "Airplane", even the last line of "Let's Put Our Hearts Together". I even saw the band in concert for the first time in June 1978, and, although Brian looked better and played much bass, he didn't sing significantly.

Now, it's a hot autumn night, I go to the record store, see MIU in the album bin, and hurry to pay for it and rush home. When I dropped the needle on that record, and heard Brian singing "She's Got Ryhthm", well, I can't describe the elation. Then came his lead on "Wontcha Come Out Tonight", and the best, which was "Matchpoint Of Our Love". But the one that caught me off guard was the last one. I thought "Winds Of Change" - and the album - was over. And, all of a sudden, out comes this emotional Brian falsetto, "WON'T LAST FOREVER...."

I was near tears, tears of joy. This was what I had been waiting for. He's back! The voice is back! I immediately played the album again, and I've been a fan of MIU ever since. And, never again did I have a reaction nearly this positive to a new Beach Boys' album, either as a group or solo. And that's been 32 years now. You can imagine my disappointment when L.A. Light Album came out, not so much because of the material, but because Brian was nowhere to be found. Brian also had no real extended leads on Keepin' The Summer Alive. So, after the trifecta of 15 Big Ones/Love You/MIU, where Brian was all over those records, he dissappeared - vocally. What happenned? Of all the great mysteries that IS The Beach Boys, the fall of Brian after MIU is the one that perplexes me the most. Well, other than SMiLE I guess...

[c-man]

What happenned? Of all the great mysteries that IS The Beach Boys, the fall of Brian after MIU is the one that perplexes me the most. Well, other than SMiLE I guess...

What I find really interesting, is that Brian (by all accounts including his) was reportedly MISERABLE during the recording of MIU...stuck out in the middle of godforsaken Iowa (no offence...I live pretty close to the MIU, so I can get away with saying that!), in the dead of frozen winter, depressed and isolated, not in charge, and yet he turns in friggin' GREAT vocals!  Whereas on the previous two albums, he WAS in charge (of the music production...obviously Landy was bullying him around, but at MIU he had Stan and Rocky bullying him around, AND someone else in charge of the album's production), writing songs about subjects HE felt like writing about (as opposed to MIU, where Mike and Al obviously controlled the lyrical themes of his songs)...but he sounded like CRUD.  Just doesn't make sense, does it??

[runnersdialzero]

If Brian's MIU vocals were "covered up" by things like multiple punches, triple tracking, and reverb, it's a shame nobody thought of that for 15 Big Ones/Love You and after MIU, because he never sounded that good again. Here all along I thought it was the stopping of smoking, the stopping of cocaine use, and just basically getting his voice back into shape through recording and touring. I also thought he might've been relaxed for the MIU sessions, which was evident on the Our Team documentary.

Again, there's no way effects and reverb could have made Brian sound THAT good. Punch ins could have made for an overall better vocal, but that's still Brian singing with no real trickery involved - he really did just sound great around then.

[c-man]

If Brian's MIU vocals were "covered up" by things like multiple punches, triple tracking, and reverb, it's a shame nobody thought of that for 15 Big Ones/Love You and after MIU, because he never sounded that good again. Here all along I thought it was the stopping of smoking, the stopping of cocaine use, and just basically getting his voice back into shape through recording and touring. I also thought he might've been relaxed for the MIU sessions, which was evident on the Our Team documentary.

Again, there's no way effects and reverb could have made Brian sound THAT good. Punch ins could have made for an overall better vocal, but that's still Brian singing with no real trickery involved - he really did just sound great around then.

Lack of cigarettes can sure do that...listen to Dylan in his Nashville Skyline era...sweet, sweet vocals.  An it's cause he quite smoking for that time.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Same as recordings done with pitch correction. The pitch may be "fixed" somewhat, but you can't change the actual timbre of someone's voice.

[Mike's Beard]

While Brian's leads on MIU  are pretty spot on it's a shame he didn't help with the harmonies a bit more. On many a song all I can hear is pretty much Al stacked on Al stacked on Al...

I cant sing to save my life so I'll ask anyone here who does ; What's generally harder to sing Beach Boy wise? The leads or the harmony and counter harmonies? Of course I realise it depends on the song in question to a degree which is why I ask "in general".

[Fall Breaks]

Didn't I read somewhere (I'm beginning to doubt it since noone else has brought it up) that Al sweetened some of Brian's better MIU vocals by doubling them very subtly, thus making Brian sound better than the previous two, and most following, records.

[Sheriff John Stone]

While Brian's leads on MIU  are pretty spot on it's a shame he didn't help with the harmonies a bit more. On many a song all I can hear is pretty much Al stacked on Al stacked on Al...

I'm gonna respectfully disagree, mikes beard. I hear Brian's high voice on many of MIU's songs, especially "Hey Little Tomboy", "Kona Coast", "Wontcha Come Out Tonight", "Belles Of Paris", "Pitter Patter", and "Diane". Actually, as much as I love Brian's lead vocals, I have to admit that, while I'm glad he was in the mix with his high part, some sound a little shaky. The harmonies weren't as polished as the following Bruce-produced albums, which might be considered by some to be too slick.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Didn't I read somewhere (I'm beginning to doubt it since noone else has brought it up) that Al sweetened some of Brian's better MIU vocals by doubling them very subtly, thus making Brian sound better than the previous two, and most following, records.

Do you mean that the doubled voice (the second voice added) was Al's?

[Fall Breaks]

Didn't I read somewhere (I'm beginning to doubt it since noone else has brought it up) that Al sweetened some of Brian's better MIU vocals by doubling them very subtly, thus making Brian sound better than the previous two, and most following, records.

Do you mean that the doubled voice (the second voice added) was Al's?

Exactly, sorry for not being clearer. Sort of like Desper said Carl had done with the second part of Surf's Up (but due to tape deterioration), I guess.

[Jim V.]

Also, one more thing....was the  "Winter Symphony" lead by Brian? That wasn't too bad either.

Any anyways, now that we've kinda drifted that way, why weren't there any Brian leads on LA or KTSA?

Or for that matter, only 1 Brian song on LA? I know "I'm Begging You Please" and "California Feelin" were recorded during that era, why not put those on the album. Or was Brian against "CF" being on the album (although I'm pretty sure he was just against it being on MIU).

On KTSA, he was almost invisible too, although he was heavily involved in recording it, besides like "Goin On" and "When Girls Get Together" (which is from like 10 years before).

I don't know, just seems like either he didn't wanna be on the front lines or that they were finally annoyed by his somewhat "embarassing" vocals.

[Mike's Beard]

While Brian's leads on MIU  are pretty spot on it's a shame he didn't help with the harmonies a bit more. On many a song all I can hear is pretty much Al stacked on Al stacked on Al...

I'm gonna respectfully disagree, mikes beard. I hear Brian's high voice on many of MIU's songs, especially "Hey Little Tomboy", "Kona Coast", "Wontcha Come Out Tonight", "Belles Of Paris", "Pitter Patter", and "Diane". Actually, as much as I love Brian's lead vocals, I have to admit that, while I'm glad he was in the mix with his high part, some sound a little shaky. The harmonies weren't as polished as the following Bruce-produced albums, which might be considered by some to be too slick.

I was mainly thinking of "Come Go With Me" I think when I typed that post. Everytime I hear the opening of that song I visualise an army of Al clones "DOM"ing!
Must admit it's been awhile since I last heard M.I.U so my memory may be a little fuzzy. Good enough excuse as any to did it out again I suppose.

[runnersdialzero]

Didn't I read somewhere (I'm beginning to doubt it since noone else has brought it up) that Al sweetened some of Brian's better MIU vocals by doubling them very subtly, thus making Brian sound better than the previous two, and most following, records.

That doesn't sound right to me, I don't think it's true.

Also, one more thing....was the  "Winter Symphony" lead by Brian? That wasn't too bad either.

Yep, I believe from around the same time, too.

[Fall Breaks]

Didn't I read somewhere (I'm beginning to doubt it since noone else has brought it up) that Al sweetened some of Brian's better MIU vocals by doubling them very subtly, thus making Brian sound better than the previous two, and most following, records.

That doesn't sound right to me, I don't think it's true.

I know, I doubt it myself. Although Brian and Al sounded alike pre-Brian's voice change, that similarity certainly was gone by 1977. So noone else remembers reading this?

[adamghost]

I don't know.  I'm not saying Brian's voice wasn't better, but I am telling you a very careful listen to the vocals and you can tell there was some very clever mixing going on.  The Al doubling theory wouldn't surprise me.  That aside, I do think a lot of it has to do with someone other than himself producing this session.  Even to this day I understand Brian does better vocals when someone's riding him.  The difference could very well just be someone in the control booth going "no, Brian, do it again."  And come to think of it, Brian couldn't just walk out and go home.  He was stuck in Iowa.  That might be your answer right there.

I've heard a bunch of outtakes from the KTSA and LA era and there's only one where Brian turns in a passable lead vocal, and that was on a cover of an old '50s song.  He tried to sing "California Feeling" and you can tell how seriously he takes it by singing "it was such a beautiful day...[then dryly:]...like most days!"  I think they tried to get him on there but his lead vocals just weren't cutting it.  I think he's doing a lot of the falsettos on KTSA, so they were really trying to have him sing as much as possible.