Tones by Mr. Carl Wilson

[c-man]

Is it possible that back then, Brian never played them entire tracks? ... You can  see where they would think the album wasn't going anywhere.

That's a great question. I don't know if I have ever considered it. We've heard people like Vosse talk about getting rough mixes of songs pieced together, but what about the band? Without knowing otherwise, it would seem logical that he'd give them possible mixes of the album, or at least songs and groups of songs. But ... did he? I have no idea.

Bruce, Mike and Alan all had mixes of complete SMiLE tracks that they either talked about or shared with Byron Preiss, Brad Elliott, or other writers in the late '70s and early '80s.  But were they given to them by Brian in '66-'67, or did they get them from Carl & Desper in '72? 

[Andrew G. Doe]

In 1980, Alan had - and for all I know, still has - a goodly number of Smile-era acetates.

[the captain]

In 1980, Alan had - and for all I know, still has - a goodly number of Smile-era acetates.

Might they be from when it was being revisited in the early 70s, though? It may be impossible to know, but Andrew, do you think he and/or the others had heard as much as there was reasonably available to hear at the time in '66/'67, or do you think they were blindly touching the snake, the tree trunk, etc. as opposed to the elephant?

[Bicyclerider]

The Beach Boys considering Smile to be fragments was because the songs were recorded, and often rerecorded, in sections or "fragments."  When Brian asked the boys to do vocals, they would work on backing vocals for one section of one song, and then might jump to a section of a different song, and then go on to a third.  Then Brian would write a new section to a song and bring them back to record vocals for that (Heroes and Vegetables in particular).  So you could certainly see how they would get the impression that all there was was fragments that Brian hadn't decided how to put together.  And the fact he would change his mind and take sections from one song and put them in another (Child into Vegetables, OMP fade into Heroes, Worms' Bicycle Rider into Heroes, Great Shape out of Heroes, etc.) couldn't have helped.

Carl attended many of the sessions and of all the Boys he would have had the best understanding of what Brian's intentions for the songs were.  If you look at the 12 track list, how many of the songs had "completed" backing tracks edited together that the Boys could have heard?  Heroes briefly had a completed track with vocals (cantina) but it was immediately rejected and more "fragments" recorded.  Wind Chimes had a complete track but then Brian rerecorded the verse and the coda - they may never have heard the "completed" track as we have on the GV box set and as Mike Vosse did on the acetate (of course we've never heard the acetate mix either).  Surf's Up - first section only, the Boys weren't there for the December solo version, probably only heard it in 70-71 (they would have heard the TV doc version though).  Elements, Great Shape, Cabinessence (only mixes at the time were partial verse/chorus/fade mixes with varying degrees of vocals on each), Vegetables, Child (I doubt many of them heard the completed instrumental mix, since the vocals are all on sections, not on a completed track), Old Master Painter - none had completed backing tracks edited together at the time, at least that we've heard.  So excluding GV, I would say Worms and Wonderful were the two songs that they most likely heard complete tracks for back in 66-April 67.

We need to hear those Alan/Bruce/Parks acetates!

[Ian]

My understanding of acetates is that they are for listening to at home a few times-they deteriorate on repeated plays-so many acetates from the 60s would be in poor shape-depending on how many times they were listened to

[Andrew G. Doe]

Depending on the condition of the stylus, an acetate is good for 10, maybe 15 plays, after which, all you get is surface noise.

[Mahalo]

With this in mind, what is the likelyhood that anybody who has some of these precious acetates could have them copied for posterity?

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

When we, or any other 'Smile Historian' talk about how the Boys really did a number on Brian by not letting him complete the album, I think we all think of the tracks as we hear them now-as full, complete songs. It would seem logical that Bri would play them full tracks, but we know that during this time, Brian wasn't always 'logical'. Imagine for a second, though, that all the guys were hearing were these small snippets, and then they were being asked to do vocals that weren't really 'vocals' per se, but chants, or animal noises, or water noises. And you had the record company breathing down your neck for the album, which is already not going to be ready by the original release date. I used to be of the opinion that SMiLE was this real black and white issue: Brian was a genius, and The Boys were idiots for not liking the music and pretty much forcing Brian to quit the album. While I still think the music is amazing, and I think that at one time Brian was a musical genius, as time goes on I start to see things from the Boys perspective a little bit more. 

Might they be from when it was being revisited in the early 70s, though? It may be impossible to know, but Andrew, do you think he and/or the others had heard as much as there was reasonably available to hear at the time in '66/'67, or do you think they were blindly touching the snake, the tree trunk, etc. as opposed to the elephant?

Absolutely brilliant discussion, here. It really does cast the BB's opinions of SMiLE in a whole new light.

[Dancing Bear]

I've just thought about something. Desper worked to the band till and including the recording of C&tP, that should be spring '72 tops. Mike was still talking about a Smile release in November '72 (Wonderbilly). We have Desper's account of what happened while he was onboard - not much - but after that, did Carl work more on the tapes, while Rieley was still around? Jack wrote some weird stuff about the 60s / 70s nature of the Smile tapes.

One more thing: in 71/72 I don't believe they would use acetates. I think cassette was already king.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Steve didn't work on CATP per se - that was engineered by Steve Moffitt - but he did engineer the two tracks Dennis offered for the project.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

This is turning into a great discussion!
I can't remember right off the top of my head exactly when Carl tried to put SMiLE together, but I remember a comment from him like 'Something keeps stopping us from finishing the album, but I don't know what  it is'. Interesting.

One thing I've wondered is this: When Carl started trying to put a SMiLE album together, was that during the WB years, when they were pretty much signed to Warners with the intention that at some point the album would be delivered? Now if memory serves me correctly, those were some lean times. I find it hard to believe that if there was quite a few finished tracks, then they couldn't have finished up the couple that weren't done yet and got the album out. We know at this point that the BB's got to a point where they were pretty much about 'finished product' and 'money'. If there was any money to be had by releasing the album, they would have done it, Brian's dissaproval be damned. That leads me to believe even more that by that point, everything that had been completed ( or near completion) had already been released. There must have just been a ton of pieces on tape, so much so that they wouldn't even know where to start.

[Sheriff John Stone]

That leads me to believe even more that by that point, everything that had been completed ( or near completion) had already been released. There must have just been a ton of pieces on tape, so much so that they wouldn't even know where to start.

Yeah, I've wondered about that also, the "finishing" of SMiLE in the early 1970's. I specifically wondered if they were going to re-record all of the songs (like Brian did with BWPS) or incorporate the old with the new - like 1971's "Surf's Up".

[TdHabib]

That leads me to believe even more that by that point, everything that had been completed ( or near completion) had already been released. There must have just been a ton of pieces on tape, so much so that they wouldn't even know where to start.

Yeah, I've wondered about that also, the "finishing" of SMiLE in the early 1970's. I specifically wondered if they were going to re-record all of the songs (like Brian did with BWPS) or incorporate the old with the new - like 1971's "Surf's Up".

I recall a quote from Carl that they transfered all of the 66 + 67 stuff to safety tape; so that might imply that they wer incorporating old with new...

[Chris Brown]

That leads me to believe even more that by that point, everything that had been completed ( or near completion) had already been released. There must have just been a ton of pieces on tape, so much so that they wouldn't even know where to start.

Yeah, I've wondered about that also, the "finishing" of SMiLE in the early 1970's. I specifically wondered if they were going to re-record all of the songs (like Brian did with BWPS) or incorporate the old with the new - like 1971's "Surf's Up".

I recall a quote from Carl that they transfered all of the 66 + 67 stuff to safety tape; so that might imply that they wer incorporating old with new...

Yeah, I think the idea was to take what Brian had done, record whatever was needed (mostly lead vocals) and put it out.  Without Brian's cooperation, though, it was pretty much an impossible task from the start. 

[A Million Units In Jan!]

Isn't there a quote from Stephen Desper about how some of the tape had actually been thrown away, some of it cut up? And he and Carl had to 'tape' the tapes back together?

And we wonder where some of the missing pieces are!!

[c-man]

Isn't there a quote from Stephen Desper about how some of the tape had actually been thrown away, some of it cut up? And he and Carl had to 'tape' the tapes back together?

And we wonder where some of the missing pieces are!!

"The Old Master Painter" 4-track had been "accidentally" thrown out and was repaired in this manner. 

[A Million Units In Jan!]

Ok. I couldn't remember if it was just one track, or a bunch of tracks.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I've heard it was just a small section of "Fire", like maybe an inch or two.

[roll plymouth rock]

Has anyone heard the Tones vocals? And what was Dennis working on at the time of Tones? I wonder if the 72 smile would've included Tones, Cool Water, Can't Wait Too Long, etc... Also, I can see the project seeming to be a big challenge if the fragments were spread across tape, etc...

[A Million Units In Jan!]

Well, I don't know why a '72 SMiLE would have included Can't Wait Too Long or Cool Cool Water, as those aren't really songs that were even originally included. Tones maybe, but that's probably even a stretch. Most likley it would be the same songs as the original, as there was a ton of covers and booklets waiting to be used-unless they were destroyed by that point.

Does anyone know when Capitol finally scrapped all those booklets and LP covers?

[c-man]

Well, I don't know why a '72 SMiLE would have included Can't Wait Too Long or Cool Cool Water, as those aren't really songs that were even originally included. Tones maybe, but that's probably even a stretch. Most likley it would be the same songs as the original, as there was a ton of covers and booklets waiting to be used-unless they were destroyed by that point.

Does anyone know when Capitol finally scrapped all those booklets and LP covers?

I don't know when they were scrapped, but they couldn't have been used in '72...because they had "Capitol Records" printed on them, and the '72 SMiLE would've been a Warner release. 

[c-man]

Has anyone heard the Tones vocals? And what was Dennis working on at the time of Tones? I wonder if the 72 smile would've included Tones, Cool Water, Can't Wait Too Long, etc... Also, I can see the project seeming to be a big challenge if the fragments were spread across tape, etc...

Dennis recorded a track (with Carl, Bruce, and Billy Hinsche) under the working title "I Don't Know".  That was in January, a couple of months before Carl did "Tones".

[roll plymouth rock]

Has anyone heard the Tones vocals? And what was Dennis working on at the time of Tones? I wonder if the 72 smile would've included Tones, Cool Water, Can't Wait Too Long, etc... Also, I can see the project seeming to be a big challenge if the fragments were spread across tape, etc...

Dennis recorded a track (with Carl, Bruce, and Billy Hinsche) under the working title "I Don't Know".  That was in January, a couple of months before Carl did "Tones".

Is it booted??

[BiG GRiN]

Has anyone heard the Tones vocals? And what was Dennis working on at the time of Tones? I wonder if the 72 smile would've included Tones, Cool Water, Can't Wait Too Long, etc... Also, I can see the project seeming to be a big challenge if the fragments were spread across tape, etc...

Dennis recorded a track (with Carl, Bruce, and Billy Hinsche) under the working title "I Don't Know".  That was in January, a couple of months before Carl did "Tones".

Is it booted??

I have two versions of the song 'I Don't Know' I found on the web, not on bootlegs, just as a single mp3.

one is labeled:  "Dennis Wilson - I Don't Know (piano demo acetate)" (1mn 08s)
Dennis plays piano alone,  with poor sound quality.
In my opinion, it can be a fragment of the real 'I don't know' from Smile era;

and the other:  "I Don't Know (dennis wilson) mono 1-12-67" (2mn 28s)
full orchestration (guitars, drums, bass...), with better sound;
My opinion, it's the other song titled "I don't know" recorded in 1977 by Dennis; it doesn't sounds like a Smile era song.

Mystery, always mystery around SMiLE!

[c-man]

Has anyone heard the Tones vocals? And what was Dennis working on at the time of Tones? I wonder if the 72 smile would've included Tones, Cool Water, Can't Wait Too Long, etc... Also, I can see the project seeming to be a big challenge if the fragments were spread across tape, etc...

Dennis recorded a track (with Carl, Bruce, and Billy Hinsche) under the working title "I Don't Know".  That was in January, a couple of months before Carl did "Tones".

Is it booted??

I have two versions of the song 'I Don't Know' I found on the web, not on bootlegs, just as a single mp3.

one is labeled:  "Dennis Wilson - I Don't Know (piano demo acetate)" (1mn 08s)
Dennis plays piano alone,  with poor sound quality.
In my opinion, it can be a fragment of the real 'I don't know' from Smile era;

and the other:  "I Don't Know (dennis wilson) mono 1-12-67" (2mn 28s)
full orchestration (guitars, drums, bass...), with better sound;
My opinion, it's the other song titled "I don't know" recorded in 1977 by Dennis; it doesn't sounds like a Smile era song.

Mystery, always mystery around SMiLE!

The "other song" titled "I Don't Know" recorded in 1977 by Dennis is, in fact, "Love Remember Me" as included in the new "Bambu: The Caribou Sessions", Disc Two of "Pacific Ocean Blue:  Legacy Edition".  So if the "mono 1-12-67" (2mn 28s) track isn't THAT...it could be the SMiLE-era "I Don't Know".