How good a guitar player was Carl?

[Magic Transistor Radio]

I don't play guitar, so I really don't know. He didn't have to 'show off' like Hendrix or many of the heavy metal guitar players. But then again, it seems like it would be pretty tough to play and sing a song like Good Vibrations or God Only Knows. So I would like to here from any guitar players.

[shelter]

The Beach Boys' guitar parts often have some tricky chords but they're generally not that hard to play.

But I'd say that if you're in your mid teens and you can pull off those Chuck Berry riffs as well as Carl did at the time, you're surely a talented guitarist.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

I get the sense that the Beach Boys were much more songwriters and producers than excellent  instrumentalists. Although, the Wilsons, Bruce and even Al were capable at playing the basics in several things. I am guessing that Carl was better player than Al, or were they about the same? Who was the best piano player?

[adamghost]

Bruce Johnston far and away the best keyboard player in the band, but I would award second best to Dennis.  Brian had more technical knowledge, but Dennis had more range as a player, I think.  People who knew them better can tell me if that's not right.

I'm pretty sure the whole band, even Mike, could play at least rudimentary keyboards.

[Don_Zabu]

Didn't he do the guitar solo on "It's About Time"?

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I thought that was Ed Carter...?

[adamghost]

If I had to think of one word to describe Carl Wilson's playing, it would be "solid."  The guy was not a blazer, but he could play extremely complicated guitar parts and sing over them effortlessly.  Try playing the figure to "Sloop John B" and singing a harmony over it.  Have fun.  I've done it and having done so, I won't ever disrespect Carl's guitar playing.  I bet it would give Clapton a moment's pause.  I was in the studio once cutting a remake of the song with Jerry Cole -- THE Jerry Cole -- and even he struggled with it.  Everything isn't about knowing your scales and playing them with lightning speed.

The Beach Boys, the Wilsons in particular, were all first rate foundational players.  This is a concept that gets lost on a lot of musicians who just rate things in terms of technical ability...but if no one's establishing the groove and the chord progression, all the technical ability in the world just makes for a crap arrangement.  You see this all the time with bad bar bands...everyone's showing off their chops and no one's laying down the mortar.  

Give a listen to "My Diane" on MIU ALBUM or "I Wanna Pick You Up" on LOVE YOU...Denny on drums, Brian on piano, Carl on guitar (and possibly bass on "Diane").  Basic doesn't even begin to describe the playing...but what power.  POW.  Everything locks.  It's like a brick wall.  Give me that over a noodle-rama any day.

[adamghost]

Great example of the Beach Boys foundational playing style (though Dennis isn't on drums) here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8lqmU4ky4Y

Brian's piano is solid as a rock, quarter-note chords right hand, bass line in left.  Carl doubles the bass line on guitar and does a good approximation of Joe Walsh's guitar solo.  Al's guitar is audible doing the solo, and he's playing a part that tonally (with use of chorus) doubles and reinforces the clavinet...which in turn is underpinning Brian's piano...AND the bass line.  Drums syncopate more than a Beach Boys song usually does, but heavy on the low frequency part of the drums, a la Dennis (even though it's Bobby Figueroa)...much more toms than cymbals to keep the bottom end stomping and stay out of the frequency range of the vocals.

[adamghost]

Here's another good one.  A good bit of overdubbing of the vocals in post, but the music sounds 100% live to me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVKCRpOewco

Bruce, Brian and Mike Meros all double the chords on three separate keyboards that have slightly different timbres.  Carl doubles the bass line throughout while singing lead (and playing triplets while singing harmony on the chorus).  Dennis' drumming, as usual, stomps, heavy on the bottom of the kit.  Watch how often he plays the cymbals...not much....the high frequency is given over to the tambourine.  It's all toms and snare.  Particularly notice his fill at 3:13 and his drumming at the outro of the song.  It stomps.  No cymbals.  All toms.  Technically simple.  Fabulous attack and tone.  Everything locks together perfectly.

[markcharles75]

Technically speaking, could Carl blast off a solo like Steve Vai?  Or rip a blues solo for 15 minutes like Stevie Ray?  No.  But so what?  How does that fit into the Beach Boys world.  It doesn't.  Songs like God Only Knows do not require it.  There is no place for it.  If you want that "type" of guitar playing, there are tons of shred players to listen to.  Personally speaking, I think that mindset of "ok middle of song, time for your solo" is outdated long ago.  But there are some people who love that.  I get bored when I see, particularly if its long and done bad, a 10 minute solo, especially a blues jam.  Yawn.  It does not interest me.

So sure, there are different levels of proficiency on the guitar.  The genius of Brian was his chord progressions, melodies, ability to put together gorgeous harmonies and production skills.  No shredders needed.  Just the COLOR of the guitar, one of the many instruments he used to paint the picture, particulary in his latter productions. 

[Magic Transistor Radio]

Technically speaking, could Carl blast off a solo like Steve Vai?  Or rip a blues solo for 15 minutes like Stevie Ray?  No.  But so what?  How does that fit into the Beach Boys world.  It doesn't.  Songs like God Only Knows do not require it.  There is no place for it.  If you want that "type" of guitar playing, there are tons of shred players to listen to.  Personally speaking, I think that mindset of "ok middle of song, time for your solo" is outdated long ago.  But there are some people who love that.  I get bored when I see, particularly if its long and done bad, a 10 minute solo, especially a blues jam.  Yawn.  It does not interest me.

So sure, there are different levels of proficiency on the guitar.  The genius of Brian was his chord progressions, melodies, ability to put together gorgeous harmonies and production skills.  No shredders needed.  Just the COLOR of the guitar, one of the many instruments he used to paint the picture, particulary in his latter productions. 

I agree with you. However, the Beach Boys do have some songs with extended instrumental sections, such as Feel Flows. But the only thing that shows off, at least live, is the flute. There are some some brief guitar solos on several BB rock songs, but more of a Chuck Berry riff then Stevie Ray. I am not a Stevie Ray fan, nor do I care for heavy metal. But I do like the Doors and Pink Floyd. I suppose that they don't really show off either, but sort of lay it down, like Feel Flows or the bridge to Leaving this Town.

[c-man]

I thought that was Ed Carter...?

Nope, according to Desper it's Carl on the record.  And Carl always played it live.  You might be thinking of "Bluebirds Over The Mountain":  Eddie C. plays the screaming lead licks all over that one.

[ReggieDunbar]

I'd say that Carl was one really good guitar player! But I don't think he ranges all the way up to great or fantastic, fabolous or anything

Did Carl compose any of the guitar parts or solos for the 1961-1971 catalog? Or did he just play what he was told to? Big difference

//RD

[Mahalo]

Carl shredded, no questions about it. I would take someone who holds it down while singing those wonderful songs than one who is technically astounding but lacks in the soul dept. Carl Wilson is one of the MOST underrated guitarists in the universe of guitar geeks, but we know better!!

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I thought that was Ed Carter...?

Nope, according to Desper it's Carl on the record.  And Carl always played it live.  You might be thinking of "Bluebirds Over The Mountain":  Eddie C. plays the screaming lead licks all over that one.

Ahh ok cool...

[metal flake paint]

Did Carl compose any of the guitar parts or solos for the 1961-1971 catalog? Or did he just play what he was told to? Big difference

//RD

Quite sure he composed the guitar solo for "Dance, Dance, Dance", hence his co-writer credit.

[adamghost]

He wrote the main riff on "Dance, Dance, Dance" I think...but I would say he wrote most of his own solos.  I've worked most of them out for cover bands and he tends to have a pretty specific style, kind of a Chuck Berry thing that expands to accommodate Brian's unorthodox chord structures.  A lot of first position stuff and riffs off the chord inversions.  Kind of tricky given what he has to solo over sometimes...the chord sequence for the solo to "Be True To Your School," for example, is insane.  I can't imagine how he ever kept that straight.  He did do the solo on "Dance Dance Dance," for example, which is pretty awesome.  He apparently also played the opening solo on "Fun Fun Fun" but was doubled by Glenn Campbell.

[c-man]

He wrote the main riff on "Dance, Dance, Dance" I think...but I would say he wrote most of his own solos.  I've worked most of them out for cover bands and he tends to have a pretty specific style, kind of a Chuck Berry thing that expands to accommodate Brian's unorthodox chord structures.  A lot of first position stuff and riffs off the chord inversions.  Kind of tricky given what he has to solo over sometimes...the chord sequence for the solo to "Be True To Your School," for example, is insane.  I can't imagine how he ever kept that straight.  He did do the solo on "Dance Dance Dance," for example, which is pretty awesome.  He apparently also played the opening solo on "Fun Fun Fun" but was doubled by Glenn Campbell.

The opening solo on "Fun Fun Fun" was played live, with no double, by whomever played the main rhythm part on the song...Campbell is not on the AFM sheet and we don't have the tracking session tape, so we can't say for sure if it was Carl or Glen, only that Glen has said he's on it.  Carl definitely doubled it...during the vocal overdub, and also played the middle solo on an overdub.  One thing I find really interesting about "Dance Dance Dance" (which DOES feature Campbell, doubling Carl's main 12-string riff on an acoustic 6-string) is that Carl played the solo live on the basic track, instead of overdubbing it.  I'm not sure he ever did that on any other song, except maybe "409" or "Surfin' Safari".

[TdHabib]

Adam I've heard you say that Bruce is the best keyboard player in the band before, and I'm just curious as to what you think makes his style so impressive. Perhaps I'm confusing his syrupy tendencies in the songwriting department with his instrumental prowess.

[Myk Luhv]

OH sh*t, TDHABIB BNRINGING THE PAIN

[adamghost]

Adam I've heard you say that Bruce is the best keyboard player in the band before, and I'm just curious as to what you think makes his style so impressive. Perhaps I'm confusing his syrupy tendencies in the songwriting department with his instrumental prowess.

My first reason for saying that is that the Wrecking Crew guys held his playing in very high esteem...I think Hal Blaine said in his book that he had a feel on an organ that was better than any he'd ever heard.  When I did a session with them his name came up again and it was clear they viewed Bruce as a player "who could hang."  Those guys were not easily impressed.  David Marks has also singled out his playing out for praise, and commented that you'd never know it from what he does onstage.

But you can tell from watching him play, too.  Look no further than the live version of "The Nearest Faraway Place" that was just posted.  It's schmaltzy, yeah -- a lot of classically trained players ARE schmaltzy -- but technically it's miles past anything the other guys in the band could do.

Now having said that, let's make a distinction between technical musicianship and good taste!  I actually highlighted the Wilsons' playing upthread for just this very reason, because I think a lot of players could learn from their hard-hitting, minimalist style.  It's been said of Johnston that he doesn't have a rock and roll bone in his body, and to his credit, I've heard him admit as much himself...and yeah, his solo "Disney Girls" on youtube was a pretty rough go to watch -- it made Manilow seem understated!  I've played with musicians that are similar to Bruce, guys who had thorough training in chord theory, the classics, sang in choir and band, etc., and you will find they often have blind spots in terms of taste, understanding what's good and isn't good about rock music, and just playing with the right kind of emphasis.  They come from a place where there are rules, and they are loath to break them.

However -- and this is a big however -- these kinds of players are first rate in terms of precision, understanding complicated chord theory, exacting in matters of pitch, etc.  They're the kinds of guys that you can give a tough assignment to and they'll know what to do.  If it's a technical issue of execution, you don't have to explain stuff to these kinds of guys...if you do, it's usually something like "play harder." There's a reason Brian started using Bruce in the studio...the guy was, from all accounts, a fantastically quick study.  Brian didn't have to explain a complicated vocal part to Bruce twice.  On a technical level, Bruce probably "got" what Brian was going for quicker than any of the other guys.  

So yeah...rock and roller, not so much.  First rate utility dude that you can plug into almost any situation...definitely.  Best keyboard player in the band?  By any technical measure, no question.  He's in a league of musicianship above all the other guys (not counting Blondie, Ricky and David)...but that said, it may not always have been the best style of playing for the Beach Boys music.  But his live work with the band in the early '70s was pretty impressive.  It's a shame to see him so underutilized these days, but I assume that's how he wants it.  70 is not 25.

[hypehat]

Well said, that man.

[busy doin nothin]

adamghost -- thanks for your excellent analysis in this thread.  I pretty much agree with everything you've said.  I am no guitar expert -- a marginal player myself, I am more proficient in piano, but no expert there either.  But I know what I enjoy hearing.  I think you correctly identify what the Wilsons had, more than anything else, was the ability to express themselves through music and instruments, which is more important than technical brilliance.  A certain basic proficiency is essential of course, but beyond that, it is what you convey through the instruments that matters.

I love your citing My Diane and I Wanna Pick You Up -- two of my all-time favorite tracks.  They are very simple but the playing DOES sound phenomenal, as you say.  There is some emotional component to the three brilliant brothers, all musical geniuses in their own way, making music together.

I would be interested to hear your opinions on Ricky and Blondie.  Personally I really love the playing on the Flame album.  Again, though a large part of the greatness is probably how tight the Flame were as a unit, presumably in part because the drummer, bassist, and one guitarist were brothers (just like the Wilson). 

I treasure certain moments from Carl as a guitarist -- like his brief solo on Long Promised Road, that brings tears to my eyes.  It just speaks in a way that so many longer, more elaborate solos do not.  (Now someone will probably post that it's not Carl).

I find that Bruce's  Old Grey Whistle Test performance of Disney Girls is  nauseating just as you do, even though he certainly plays some complicated chords.  I'd rather hear a version from Brian at that time ('75?) -- it would be much simpler, but more sincere. 

And as you point out, Denny did become a great keyboard player and incorporated phenomenal keyboard textures and playing -- most if not all of it done by himself -- into his 70s work.

[guitarfool2002]

This is a tough question to answer, and so far the answers have been very interesting! I have a slightly different take on it.

The most impressive and maybe the most amazing aspect of Carl Wilson's guitar playing is the fact that he was so influential before he was 18 years old. I'll say it another way: While he was still in high school he was recording songs which kids and adults were learning on their own.

I think Carl's best work, and I mean this as an all-encompassing standard of judging his influence, was on the pre-Beatlemania Beach Boys albums. His guitar work on those albums is not only technically good, but thanks to the technology and the studios they were using, it sounds amazing and I'd argue even more than Dick Dale at the time Carl Wilson had THE California Fender guitar sound which everyone is in love with. Sparkling clear, reverb drenched, cherry Fender equipment right from the factory, being recorded with some of the finest recording equipment possible. Dick Dale was the father of the sound, sure, the Ventures had their niche, but Dick Dale's records are more dirty-sounding than those early Beach Boys records. Carl's tone is crystal clear, and just cuts right through the mix.

Again, the thing to point out is he was still in high school! A teenage guitarist playing Dick Dale and Bill Doggett records as good as Carl was, and also adding a stamp of personality to the original songs, is quite an accomplishment.

And when those records became hits, just as Carole Kaye had her "Beach Boys pick" which producers would ask her to use, there were producers asking for session players to play like the Beach Boys' sound, which was in the early days Carl Wilson. Impressive for a teen guitarist.

Here is the point where I might stray a bit from other opinions...in the years after that initial blast of success, did Carl Wilson improve as a guitarist? Or was he playing the same kinds of leads as he had played in 1963 into the 1970's? There is the point to consider. Obviously he was a lead singer, a harmony singer, and a bandleader for all intents and purposes so his musical plate was full. But up until a point in the 70's and apart from a few highlights, did he get better as a guitarist? After you have that much success at such an early age, and you have a bag of tricks as a guitarist which you hear other people copying and using on their own records, why change your sound? At that point Carl didn't need to change because it fit what his band needed. This was apparently a conflict within the Beatles as well, and caused tension among the three guitarists when some felt others were not "keeping up" with the current sounds.

Would Carl have been a good session man like those Wrecking Crew members? Brian wanted him on some sessions when he was available, obviously he trusted Carl that way. But that was family, rather than a "job" where time is money and you're playing for clients. Those so inclined, listen to the California Girls material and hear who was making the most mistakes take after take. That's one time, one song, but if that were not family he'd probably not be hired back to play for that producer after making that many "bloopers".

Carl's best and most influential work was the first group of Beach Boys albums and singles, and they still hold up today as technically proficient, brilliant sounding recordings which might be the definition of the classic "Fender Sound" of guitar in the 60's.

[Mike's Beard]

It must be noted that in the early days the emphasis on Carl was very much that of a 'lead guitarist' role. He was arguably the least vocally present member of the group. Then pretty much overnight around the time of "Good Vibrations" it seemed to dawn on everyone that Carl was the most vocally talented member of the band and he basically became the lead vocalist. As the groups sound had always had it's foundation in Brian's strange piano chord sequences and interlocking multi harmonies there was never any room for blazing Hendrix like solos in the music and that combined with his ever increasing vocal duties meant there was little need for Carl to progress his playing to a technically higher level.