Hodgepodge

[Cam Mott]

If you are right, it is then Popular Music which was four times as popular. Are we done now?

I'm not part of that equation. I don't think sales equals quality. You were the one who said it. If you disagree with your own premise feel free to admit it.

It has nothing to do with my or your opinion beyond our one vote or no vote, the genre ranks itself imo. Unless the charts have been just my opinion all this time.

[Jim V.]

If you are right, it is then Popular Music which was four times as popular. Are we done now?

I'm not part of that equation. I don't think sales equals quality. You were the one who said it. If you disagree with your own premise feel free to admit it.

It has nothing to do with my or your opinion beyond our one vote or no vote, the genre ranks itself imo. Unless the charts have been just my opinion all this time.

So you stand by the fact that Summer In Paradise is one of the worst ever works by a major artist, due to the fact that it barely sold into the thousands? It is interesting that you have no problem saying "Kokomo" is "better" than "This Whole World" cuz it sold more copies, but when it's "Who Let the Dogs Out" versus "Kokomo" with "Who Let the Dogs" out selling more copies you will not admit the same.

It's almost like you won't say what could be taken as a bad word about a certain singer. It's odd.

And it leads me to believe that no one should listen to you about "Old Man River" or any other subject dealing with Mike Love or any other Beach Boy, due to your obvious infatuation with one Doctor Love.

[KDS]

I was looking at the Billboard charts when NPP came out. 

Looking at the stuff in the Top 20, I can say once and for all that there is absolutely no way possible that sales equals quality. 

Wasn't Good Vibrations kept out of the #1 spot by the novelty song "Westchester Cathedral"?  It was either Good Vibrations or I Can See For Miles by The Who.  Either way, it's a farce. 

When The Beach Boys released Sunflower it was the lowest charting Beach Boys LP at that time, and I don't think it cracked the Top 100.  It's now regarded as one of their best all-time albums. 

Another case in point, this summer One Direction is playing concerts at football stadiums while Brian Wilson is playing relatively small venues.

[Nicko1234]

I was looking at the Billboard charts when NPP came out. 

Looking at the stuff in the Top 20, I can say once and for all that there is absolutely no way possible that sales equals quality. 

Wasn't Good Vibrations kept out of the #1 spot by the novelty song "Westchester Cathedral"?  It was either Good Vibrations or I Can See For Miles by The Who.  Either way, it's a farce. 

When The Beach Boys released Sunflower it was the lowest charting Beach Boys LP at that time, and I don't think it cracked the Top 100.  It's now regarded as one of their best all-time albums. 

Another case in point, this summer One Direction is playing concerts at football stadiums while Brian Wilson is playing relatively small venues.

I think you are a little mistaken there. Good Vibrations got to number one and then Winchester Cathedral knocked it off the top spot. It also won the Grammy though.

Brian certainly isn`t playing small venues in the U.K. that`s for sure...

[KDS]

I was looking at the Billboard charts when NPP came out. 

Looking at the stuff in the Top 20, I can say once and for all that there is absolutely no way possible that sales equals quality. 

Wasn't Good Vibrations kept out of the #1 spot by the novelty song "Westchester Cathedral"?  It was either Good Vibrations or I Can See For Miles by The Who.  Either way, it's a farce. 

When The Beach Boys released Sunflower it was the lowest charting Beach Boys LP at that time, and I don't think it cracked the Top 100.  It's now regarded as one of their best all-time albums. 

Another case in point, this summer One Direction is playing concerts at football stadiums while Brian Wilson is playing relatively small venues.

I think you are a little mistaken there. Good Vibrations got to number one and then Winchester Cathedral knocked it off the top spot. It also won the Grammy though.

Brian certainly isn`t playing small venues in the U.K. that`s for sure...

Maybe that's what I was thinking of.  But just the plain fact that Winchester Cathedral went to #1 at all in 1967, when there was so much great music coming down, just shows how quality doesn't equal sales. 

I know Brian's playing bigger venues across the pond because in general, Brian Wilson's full catalog seems to be much more appreciated in the UK than here in the states.  Which is why the UK in general also gets fuller Beach Boys setlists than we do here. 

[Smilin Ed H]

I want an Old Man River box!

[KDS]

How about a CD that contains an hour long version of "Shortnin Bread." 

Iggy Pop gives it four stars "Scared the Hell outta me!!!!!" 

[Cam Mott]

If you are right, it is then Popular Music which was four times as popular. Are we done now?

I'm not part of that equation. I don't think sales equals quality. You were the one who said it. If you disagree with your own premise feel free to admit it.

It has nothing to do with my or your opinion beyond our one vote or no vote, the genre ranks itself imo. Unless the charts have been just my opinion all this time.

So you stand by the fact that Summer In Paradise is one of the worst ever works by a major artist, due to the fact that it barely sold into the thousands? It is interesting that you have no problem saying "Kokomo" is "better" than "This Whole World" cuz it sold more copies, but when it's "Who Let the Dogs Out" versus "Kokomo" with "Who Let the Dogs" out selling more copies you will not admit the same.

It's almost like you won't say what could be taken as a bad word about a certain singer. It's odd.

And it leads me to believe that no one should listen to you about "Old Man River" or any other subject dealing with Mike Love or any other Beach Boy, due to your obvious infatuation with one Doctor Love.

I see, well thanks for sharing. Again.

[Cam Mott]

Carlin says Mike/Boys supposedly call it on work for OMR and then on the next page he says work continued on OMR. Anybody have a timeline of the OMR recordings?

[clack]

OMR being abandoned is hardly some big scandal. It was an odd choice for a cover song in the first place, considering the times and the desperate condition of the band in the marketplace. All that time, effort, and money spent on a cover that would be album filler at best, and at worst might not even make the final cut.

It's the routine give-and-take that every band must go through. What gives it interest in the saga of the Beach Boys is that the band has now become a democracy, and Brian -- for the first time -- is no longer calling all the shots.

All that said, it's a shame that OMR was never finished. Even incomplete, it's a minor gem.

[Nicko1234]

OMR being abandoned is hardly some big scandal. It was an odd choice for a cover song in the first place, considering the times and the desperate condition of the band in the marketplace. All that time, effort, and money spent on a cover that would be album filler at best, and at worst might not even make the final cut.

It's the routine give-and-take that every band must go through. What gives it interest in the saga of the Beach Boys is that the band has now become a democracy, and Brian -- for the first time -- is no longer calling all the shots.

All that said, it's a shame that OMR was never finished. Even incomplete, it's a minor gem.

100% agreed.

[Douchepool]

Sooner or later the band had to realize that work needed to be done in order to keep the band moving forward. Endless takes of Ol' Man River, despite its status as a small treasure, were simply a distraction. Michael was right to point it out after a while. But since the band was a "democracy" at this point, the fact that the work stopped on the track is proof positive that clearly most of the rest of the band agreed with the sentiment.

I don't see that as being anti-Brian or pro-Michael; it's just the truth.

[JK]

Nearest Faraway Place needed to be further away.  [a lot further] 

 

I think the main offender in my eyes----and a true embarrasment in Beach Boy Land----is "All I Want To Do", the whole gosh-darn song, not just the "blue" fade. As for 20/20 in general: Maybe the peaks are too high and the troughs too low. I'll get back to it one day...

[Cam Mott]

Sooner or later the band had to realize that work needed to be done in order to keep the band moving forward. Endless takes of Ol' Man River, despite its status as a small treasure, were simply a distraction. Michael was right to point it out after a while. But since the band was a "democracy" at this point, the fact that the work stopped on the track is proof positive that clearly most of the rest of the band agreed with the sentiment.

I don't see that as being anti-Brian or pro-Michael; it's just the truth.

I agree. If Brian had told Mike that he was done with Mike's experiments and the band wasn't going to spend anymore time and money on it I bet no one would think anything of it.  (Waiting for Mike experiment jokes)  It seems like there is always a suggestion that the Band was almost always in some kind of conflict or resistance to Brian but to me it seems like they almost never were and they did almost everything Brian ever asked and worked very hard at it, whether they understood it or not, in almost every instance. I mean, OMR seems like it might be the rare or even singular example of the band drawing a line for Brian and still it seems the Band had already worked very hard numerous times trying to realize Brian's visions for the song.

Carlin seems to say that OFAH/OMR was continuing work on OMR after Mike/Band's declaration they were out, yet the date for OFAH/OMR on the two-fer is May 1968 while the date for OMR on Hawthorne is shown as later in June 1968. BB history is hard.

[Nicko1234]

Nearest Faraway Place needed to be further away.  [a lot further] 

 

I think the main offender in my eyes----and a true embarrasment in Beach Boy Land----is "All I Want To Do", the whole gosh-darn song, not just the "blue" fade. As for 20/20 in general: Maybe the peaks are too high and the troughs too low. I'll get back to it one day...

I somewhat agree about All I Want to Do but they did at least make a good job of it in concert (though I am glad that plans for Mike to sing it again in 2004 never materialized).

As for The Nearest Faraway Place, I think that gets a bad rap. A very pretty tune and I believe that it was so popular when Bruce performed it live that the other members were actually jealous of the reception it got. I may be alone in this but I would quite like to see Bruce do this one in concert again...

[Douchepool]

I agree. If Brian had told Mike that he was done with Mike's experiments and the band wasn't going to spend anymore time and money on it I bet no one would think anything of it.  (Waiting for Mike experiment jokes)  It seems like there is always a suggestion that the Band was almost always in some kind of conflict or resistance to Brian but to me it seems like they almost never were and they did almost everything Brian ever asked and worked very hard at it whether they understood it or not in almost every instance. I mean, OMR seems like it might be the rare or even singular example of the band drawing a line for Brian and still it seems the Band had already worked very hard numerous times trying to realize Brian's visions for the song.

Carlin seems to say that OFAH/OMR was continuing work on OMR after Mike/Band's declaration they were out, yet the date for OFAH/OMR on the two-fer is May 1968 while the date for OMR on Hawthorne is shown as later in June 1968. BB history is hard.

Old Leafish bias with regard to the band still runs deep.

The band went above and beyond to accommodate Brian in the post-Smile period, but sooner or later people need to realize that the Beach Boys made their decisions in the moment. I'm quite sure they were unconcerned with the musings of a bunch of people on a forum on the same topics nearly fifty years later. They were in it to make music and money. When the latter was in danger of running out, going through endless takes of Ol' Man River was not an option. I don't blame Michael for speaking up one bit. You can be Mr. Artist all you want, but you can't eat endless takes of Ol' Man River.

[CenturyDeprived]

Sooner or later the band had to realize that work needed to be done in order to keep the band moving forward. Endless takes of Ol' Man River, despite its status as a small treasure, were simply a distraction. Michael was right to point it out after a while. But since the band was a "democracy" at this point, the fact that the work stopped on the track is proof positive that clearly most of the rest of the band agreed with the sentiment.

I don't see that as being anti-Brian or pro-Michael; it's just the truth.

Well it's good that the band and Mike didn't stop the "endless" takes of Pet Sounds tracks and Good Vibrations. Those had to feel like many, many (well beyond the "typical") takes/tries, but most likely there was no cocky explosion of hurtful rejection on the same level. I'm sure in an alternate universe, that could have well happened, and maybe we wouldn't have had those projects released at all (shudder to think).

And yes, I can understand that the band (and Mike in particular) might have lost confidence in Brian due to SMiLE's non-completion, which could have affected their stance for OMR sessions... but again, the irony is that it's probably that very loss of confidence, which when it began to unmistakably show with one member's particular reaction, that helped feed into Brian's uncertainty and indecision. He fed off of and truly needed enthusiasm (as many real artists do), and a lack of it (in fact, the eventual 180 degree complete opposite by Mike) is probably just as much to blame.

[Douchepool]

Well it's good that the band and Mike didn't stop the "endless" takes of Pet Sounds tracks and Good Vibrations. Those had to feel like many, many (well beyond the "typical") takes/tries, but most likely there was no cocky explosion of hurtful rejection on the same level. I'm sure in an alternate universe, that could have well happened, and maybe we wouldn't have had those projects released at all (shudder to think).

Apples and oranges. Brian was still at the acme of his talent at that time and could produce results.

And yes, I can understand that the band (and Mike in particular) might have lost confidence in Brian due to SMiLE's non-completion, which could have affected their stance for OMR sessions... but again, the irony is that it's probably that very loss of confidence, which when it began to unmistakably show with one member's particular reaction, that helped feed into Brian's uncertainty and indecision. He fed off of and truly needed enthusiasm (as many real artists do), and a lack of it (in fact, the eventual 180 degree complete opposite by Mike) is probably just as much to blame.

I don't buy the argument that Brian was pushed back against so badly. He still finished Pet Sounds and Good Vibrations and came within maybe a couple of months of finishing Smile. Later on when the contributions were inconsistent and few and far between, it probably wasn't worth it to go on and on with tons of Ol' Man River when it wasn't really going anywhere.

[CenturyDeprived]

Sooner or later the band had to realize that work needed to be done in order to keep the band moving forward. Endless takes of Ol' Man River, despite its status as a small treasure, were simply a distraction. Michael was right to point it out after a while. But since the band was a "democracy" at this point, the fact that the work stopped on the track is proof positive that clearly most of the rest of the band agreed with the sentiment.

I don't see that as being anti-Brian or pro-Michael; it's just the truth.

I agree. If Brian had told Mike that he was done with Mike's experiments and the band wasn't going to spend anymore time and money on it I bet no one would think anything of it.  (Waiting for Mike experiment jokes)  It seems like there is always a suggestion that the Band was almost always in some kind of conflict or resistance to Brian but to me it seems like they almost never were and they did almost everything Brian ever asked and worked very hard at it, whether they understood it or not, in almost every instance. I mean, OMR seems like it might be the rare or even singular example of the band drawing a line for Brian and still it seems the Band had already worked very hard numerous times trying to realize Brian's visions for the song.

Carlin seems to say that OFAH/OMR was continuing work on OMR after Mike/Band's declaration they were out, yet the date for OFAH/OMR on the two-fer is May 1968 while the date for OMR on Hawthorne is shown as later in June 1968. BB history is hard.

Problem with your analogy is: Brian experimenting had already shown a history of incredible music, such as Pet Sounds and Good Vibrations. What experiment did Mike ever have up his sleeve? Brian had already proved himself; the OMR sessions weren't done during the Surfin' Safari era, where Brian experimenting was an unproven entity. Granted, SMiLE's lack of completion had to have colored their thinking, but Brian still had a track record of kicking ass in the experimental/boundary-pushing department.

And why is it that the projects that Mike seemed to resist the most (SMiLE, OMR, etc) - the ones that Mike displayed a sour/bitter attitude towards (despite admittedly working on for a time) - just happened to be the ones Brian wound up not finishing?  Could it possibly, just possibly be because Mike felt left out of the creative process that HE felt he was entitled to being a part of, and that his attitude problem stemmed in part from that? (A human reaction, granted, but regrettable all the same). Mike didn't have a magic wand to make Brian finish or not finish a given project, but he could absolutely make *a* difference, and be the tipping point either way.

I feel that if Mike hadn't been the cowriter of Good Vibrations, that Mike's attitude toward the "endless" Good Vibrations sessions might have become equally, or even moreso, OMR-style hostile. And I say that even if Brian hypothetically had another lyricist who had written "hooky" and "relatable" lyrics for the song. Mike would have lost his patience with GV sessions sooner. You know he would have. I just think Mike was much more motivated to be encouraging for Brian to finish difficult projects if he was the lyricist.

Plus, if he didn't feel like writing with Mike, choosing a cover song with already written lyrics may have been a passive aggressive move, as to avoid dealing with hearing lip about another Mike-less collab.

[CenturyDeprived]

Well it's good that the band and Mike didn't stop the "endless" takes of Pet Sounds tracks and Good Vibrations. Those had to feel like many, many (well beyond the "typical") takes/tries, but most likely there was no cocky explosion of hurtful rejection on the same level. I'm sure in an alternate universe, that could have well happened, and maybe we wouldn't have had those projects released at all (shudder to think).

Apples and oranges. Brian was still at the acme of his talent at that time and could produce results.

And yes, I can understand that the band (and Mike in particular) might have lost confidence in Brian due to SMiLE's non-completion, which could have affected their stance for OMR sessions... but again, the irony is that it's probably that very loss of confidence, which when it began to unmistakably show with one member's particular reaction, that helped feed into Brian's uncertainty and indecision. He fed off of and truly needed enthusiasm (as many real artists do), and a lack of it (in fact, the eventual 180 degree complete opposite by Mike) is probably just as much to blame.

I don't buy the argument that Brian was pushed back against so badly. He still finished Pet Sounds and Good Vibrations and came within maybe a couple of months of finishing Smile. Later on when the contributions were inconsistent and few and far between, it probably wasn't worth it to go on and on with tons of Ol' Man River when it wasn't really going anywhere.

The definition of "so badly" is not yours to make; it's Brian's. You and I do not have a right to say how hurt or how not hurt Brian was allowed to get by Mike (and possibly the Boys') reactions.  Brian is the only guy who gets to say it, and he went out of his way to say it in an interview years later. As far as I recall, excepting the C50-implosion, Brian has rarely talked smack about Mike hurting his (Brian's) feelings in interviews, even though I'm sure there were many instances throughout the years, and I would be surprised if any other band member would come close in that department.

The fact that OMR was mentioned along with the "cocky" and hurtful connotations, as well as Brian's statements on Beautiful Dreamer, were rare windows into Brian honestly and out-and-out saying how he felt about Mike pushing back in the studio. They were strong words and took guts for Brian to say, and I don't think he would have mentioned them if the pushback wasn't very hurtful to him.

[CenturyDeprived]

OMR being abandoned is hardly some big scandal. It was an odd choice for a cover song in the first place, considering the times and the desperate condition of the band in the marketplace. All that time, effort, and money spent on a cover that would be album filler at best, and at worst might not even make the final cut.

It's the routine give-and-take that every band must go through. What gives it interest in the saga of the Beach Boys is that the band has now become a democracy, and Brian -- for the first time -- is no longer calling all the shots.

All that said, it's a shame that OMR was never finished. Even incomplete, it's a minor gem.

The same could probably be said for "Sloop John B"; odd choice for a cover. But it worked. Doesn't mean that a finished OMR would be as good, or would be a SJB-level hit, but I don't think that it being an odd choice is especially relevant, given that Brian turned odd cover choices into gold not long before.

[Mike's Beard]

The BIG difference was by 20/20 the whole band was writing/producing material. In '66 they had no choice but to wait for Brian to deliver the goods no matter how long/many takes it took.

[Nicko1234]

The definition of "so badly" is not yours to make; it's Brian's. You and I do not have a right to say how hurt or how not hurt Brian was allowed to get by Mike (and possibly the Boys') reactions.  Brian is the only guy who gets to say it, and he went out of his way to say it in an interview years later. As far as I recall, excepting the C50-implosion, Brian has rarely talked smack about Mike hurting his (Brian's) feelings in interviews, even though I'm sure there were many instances throughout the years, and I would be surprised if any other band member would come close in that department.

The fact that OMR was mentioned along with the "cocky" and hurtful connotations, as well as Brian's statements on Beautiful Dreamer, were rare windows into Brian honestly and out-and-out saying how he felt about Mike pushing back in the studio. They were strong words and took guts for Brian to say, and I don't think he would have mentioned them if the pushback wasn't very hurtful to him.

While Brian was clearly hurt, OMR was mentioned because he was asked about it surely.

And several of the band members had to face rejection at times (Al possibly the most affected and he was still having songs rejected 40+ years later). That`s part of being in a band. Brian was apparently hurt by the response to Gimme Some Lovin (I think) and Mount Vernon and Fairway as well. That doesn`t make the other band members bad guys though and I certainly wouldn`t say they were more responsive to other band members` songs than they were to Brian`s. In fact, one complaint in the past was that they should have given Dennis`s songs the same reception they gave to Brian`s...

[CenturyDeprived]

The definition of "so badly" is not yours to make; it's Brian's. You and I do not have a right to say how hurt or how not hurt Brian was allowed to get by Mike (and possibly the Boys') reactions.  Brian is the only guy who gets to say it, and he went out of his way to say it in an interview years later. As far as I recall, excepting the C50-implosion, Brian has rarely talked smack about Mike hurting his (Brian's) feelings in interviews, even though I'm sure there were many instances throughout the years, and I would be surprised if any other band member would come close in that department.

The fact that OMR was mentioned along with the "cocky" and hurtful connotations, as well as Brian's statements on Beautiful Dreamer, were rare windows into Brian honestly and out-and-out saying how he felt about Mike pushing back in the studio. They were strong words and took guts for Brian to say, and I don't think he would have mentioned them if the pushback wasn't very hurtful to him.

While Brian was clearly hurt, OMR was mentioned because he was asked about it surely.

And several of the band members had to face rejection at times (Al possibly the most affected and he was still having songs rejected 40+ years later). That`s part of being in a band. Brian was apparently hurt by the response to Gimme Some Lovin (I think) and Mount Vernon and Fairway as well. That doesn`t make the other band members bad guys though and I certainly wouldn`t say they were more responsive to other band members` songs than they were to Brian`s. In fact, one complaint in the past was that they should have given Dennis`s songs the same reception they gave to Brian`s...

It's true that rejection can be part of being in a band. Undoubtedly. But a few things to note -  let's not fool ourselves into thinking that absolutely anything said/done at anytime is simply par for the course for all people just for "being in a band". Brian surely did/does not handle rejection well, that's undeniable. But he was/is a special case. He has emotional problems, coupled with immense genius, and people in his orbit should not treat him a certain harsh way. They should know better, and learn from experience. At a certain point in his life, he needed to be treated with unconditional love and support, beyond what a "well-adjusted" normal person like Mike may have been able to comprehend. And hey, Mike wasn't a psychology major, and grew up in the 40s with dysfunction in his family. I get it.

It's not a matter of anyone being a "bad" guy, but perhaps it can be said that somebody *may* acted like a jerk in a particular instance with their actions, with regards to the particlar manner in which they lashed out.  Or if one wants to be very understanding, one can say he may have unfortunately acted in a manner that was regrettable, and this may possibly have had unintended consequences. If it means that possibly the world lost out on some Brian compositions which never existed due to Brian retreating, feeling stung by Mike's manner of cocky hurtfulness (and don't just dismiss this as an absolute impossibility), then it's understandable that people are bugged by what may have went down between those guys.

Just because Brian did work on more material in the coming months, that material was largely not up to his usual level. The songs you mentioned (Good Time, I Just Got My Pay, Loop De Loop, When Girls Get Together, Where is She, Soulful Old Man Sunshine, Walkin) have their moments, some more than others. But with a few exceptions, I don't think he was pushing himself to his best at that time (beyond OMR, the arrangement for which was pretty out of this world). Just listen to the insane beauty with the vocals on OMR. It's stunning, and dare I say, the band never again achieved quite this level of true, pure bliss with a Brian-arranged vocal arrangement. It was the end of an era; maybe Brian didn't want to endure another incident like that again. And when he did push himself to dig emotionally deep with Til I Die, well, we all know what happened with the history of that song too... it's a miracle it got finished and released, considering the further pushback Brian received from a particular bandmate, who couldn't possibly be the same one we were talking about a moment ago...  

Regarding Al : Al's material which got rejected probably was pretty mediocre. And I say that as an Al fan. Yeah, he got less respect than he deserved, which continues to this day - in no small part likely because he is not blood family. It's not really comparable to the boundary-pushing material that Brian was working on, which was and remains far more interesting. I know the band was on some level a business, but sometimes the business end has to take a back seat.

I also have lots of respect for Al for having the selflessness and guts to say that Dennis maybe didn't get the respect he deserved. It's called mature hindsight. I'd have heaps more respect if Mike would say even a tiny bit of an equivalent when it comes to regret for maybe being too harsh with his cousin at times, who had emotional illness that Mike himself didn't fully grasp at the time. But Mike doesn't say stuff like that; he's ALWAYS on the defensive. In an alternate universe, an emotionally mature Mike slips in a message like this in an interview, thus lending to some healing; in turn Brian is touched, and this leads Brian to slip in a message in an interview, stating how Mike doesn't always get the level of public respect he deserves a lyricist... and then we'll have world peace. But seriously, except the world peace thing, I think we'd see more healing if Dr. Love did some reaching out, Al-style.

[Moon Dawg]

The BIG difference was by 20/20 the whole band was writing/producing material. In '66 they had no choice but to wait for Brian to deliver the goods no matter how long/many takes it took.

  Moreover, Brian was still perceived by the others as artistically infallible in 1966. That had changed, forever, by the time of OMR and 20/20.

  I like 20/20 well enough, but in no way is it on the same level as SUNFLOWER or SURF'S UP. 20/20, while generally good, has no context as an album. Kind of like the 1965 Presley LP ELVIS FOR EVERYONE - just a collection of cuts.