The Smiley Smile Message Board

I think Mike probably feels that Melinda, and Brian's "handlers", have limited his access to Brian in recent years - specifically his request to be alone in a room with his cousin to write songs. In that respect, it's no different than the Landy years. But the rest of you probably have a different take on this situation. Probably.

Get the popcorn ready, boys.

From what I've heard, Mike's wife is pretty domineering as well...

Before this thread devolves, I think there's some truth to the OP's statement.

Regarding Mike and Brian writing music, there are three songs on TWGMTR that credit Mike and Brian (among others) - Isn't It Time, Spring Vacation, and Beaches in Mind.  Does anybody know the extent of Brian and Mike's contributions to these songs?  Were they Brian / Joe Thomas songs that Mike tweaked a lyric to, thus earning a credit?  Maybe Brian and Joe instrumental tracks that Mike separately wrote lyrics for?  Maybe Mike ideas that Brian arranged at a later date?  

There's probably something to that.  But I think most of it, at the core, can be boiled down to...  'but, I'm a genius too'.

Mike supplied the lyric to "Spring Vacation" at Brian's request: the other two... not a clue. Anyone ?

Brian had also already written some of the "Spring Vacation" chorus lyrics -- IIRC, the "hallelujah" bit, and possibly the "easy money" line, too.

As for "Isn't It Time," I believe that was one of the few (only?) TWGMTR songs written at the session.  Millas and Peterik brought in the percussion / uke riff, and Brian, Mike and Joe built the rest of the song around it on the spot. I think this is one of the reasons Mike pushed the song so much, and supported the alternate version -- it was a song on the album where he had real buy-in from the beginning.

I'm sure he feels that way.

The question, though, is whether it's true. From all evidence, including the testimony of folks who know BW firsthand, it's not.

Maybe this is a question for a different thread, but what's the deal with the alternate version?  Were these lyrics that Mike, or whoever, decided to change before the C50 Tour started? 

I think there's definitely some truth to this.  Mike isn't the only one who has had this opinion.

did Brian and Mike ever write "alone in a room"? if so, has it happened since the 6os? we know the two of them never had the most amiable relationship, regardless of Landy, Melinda, "handlers", or whoever else.


I think it's just a lame excuse on Mike's part. he's not really interested in making new music. he's finally got everything exactly the way he wants it: he is the front and center star of the show, he's playing 95% hits and songs that are 25-50 years old, and he is essentially the head of the Beach Boys organization... he controls the name, the dates, and the deals.


I could be wrong. but if Mike really does just want time to get alone with his cousin, he is fooling himself if he thinks Melinda or anyone but Brian is keeping it from happening. Brian knows exactly what he wants at this stage in the game.

Again, though, Brian and Mike were on the road for dozens of dates in 2012. Brian was without Melinda or managers for large periods of time. If Mike ever wanted to work with Brian, or fool around with a song, all he had to do was go to Brian's dressing room and knock.

That didn't happen.

Such certainty !  Such insight !!! Such insider knowledge !!!!!  No wonder it was so easy for you to get your name up on the video screen - you know who has the negatives, and where the bodies are buried. I bend my knee and bow my head in tribute, I am as nothing to your Olympian omniscience. All hail bossaroo !!   :bow :bow :bow :bow :bow :bow :bow :bow :bow :bow :bow :bow :bow :bow :bow :bow

Probably...

I agree with bossaroo 100%. Mike is a bitter old man willing to blame anybody since BW won't work with him anymore.

Jim Peterik put out a book recently. He devotes a few pages at the end to his association with Brian and the Beach Boys.  I believe that he basically says in that book that "Isn't It Time" originated with Millas, and then Peterik worked on it with him. Peterik doesn't it say it outright, but the strong implication is that a completed song of some kind was submitted to Brian and Mike, and then those two gave their opinions on the then-existing lyrics. Peterik says that the original lyric "isn't it time to catch another wave" was vetoed by Brian and Mike and was changed. I may not be relating this with 100% accuracy; check out Peterik's book for the exact wording.

For what it's worth, in the book (which I don't own, but quickly leafed through when I stumbled on it at a book sale) Peterik also offers the opinion that the remaining group members didn't want to do the reunion, and that Joe Thomas had to talk them all into it. Peterik says that this is because the Beach Boys "don't like each other," or something to that effect.

settle down big guy, I never claimed to be certain of anything hence the use of phrases like "I think" and "I could be wrong". I do feel fairly certain however that Brian has no desire to be alone in a room with Mike Love, because... does ANYBODY??

and the only reason I got my name on the video screen is because Mike liked my photoshop of him shooting lightning bolts out of his fingers, apparently missing the joke altogether.

Probably...

That would have been a very different song, but I actually like how that rolls off the tongue. It would have fit nicely in the track.

Something something formula, something something baldness, something something drugs, something something probably, something something Cam's the worst to ever post here, something something Evan Landy, something something here goes twenty-five pages of nonsense.

Maybe I'm wrong but I think Scott Bennet has managed to get in the room alone with Brian to write.  Brian goes to the deli on his own.  I'm sure if he had any desire to write/visit Mike he would do so.  I think it's absurd to liken it to the Landy years.  Brian doesn't have someone monitoring and videotaping everything he does.

Mike probably has a deep resentment for Brian and the people around him. Probably blames Brian for how the public views him, Brian being the hero and Mike being the villain.

It really is sad but Mike and Brian have a relationship that's beyond repair.

I've always interpreted Mike's wish to write with Brian "in a room" to be in a studio setting. They collaborated together in the early/mid-1960's in various studios, in the late 1960's in Brian's home studio, in 1972 in Holland, in 1974 at Caribou, in the mid-1970's at Brother Studio, in 1977 at M.I.U., and on and on.

It didn't/doesn't seem practical OR REALISTIC for Mike and Brian to write new material while on the road during C50.  There was so much going on - interviews, photo sessions, rehearsals, TV appearances, travel, and other distractions that crop up with such a major tour. Also, there were family members present for some of the tour and you couldn't really blame anyone for wanting to take it in and enjoy as much of the festivities as possible. And, not to single out Brian, but I used to wonder how he even held up physically for the duration of the tour. We know he had some back issues, but just the shock his system must've been going through to undertake such a long tour after NOT touring like that for decades. It's hard for me to imagine that writing new songs with Mike or anyone would've been feasible or any kind of a priority.

The following has absolutely nothing to do with condoning, agreeing with, or supporting anything that Dr. Landy did to and with Brian. But...while under the care of Eugene Landy, Brian Wilson:

- produced 15 Big Ones
- composed and produced The Beach Boys Love You
- performed at a few concerts in 1983
- performed at The D.C. Beach Party in 1984
- contributed to The Beach Boys 1985 album and accompanying videos
- performed with the group at Live Aid in 1985
- appeared with the group on various TV shows during 1985-86
- appeared on the "Rock & Roll To The Rescue" and "California Dreamin" recordings and videos
- contributed to the "Wipe Out" recording and video
- contributed to the Still Cruisin' album
- appeared with the group on Full House
- appeared with the group on the 1989 syndicated TV series, Endless Summer

I'm obviously missing a few contributions and appearances, however, during Dr. Landy's treatment, Brian was able to "walk that line" between being a Beach Boy and having a solo career. It was only after Landy was removed that Brian began to focus almost exclusively as a solo artist. I'm not saying why; you can come to your own conclusions. But, for some reason, Brian went from being a Beach Boy, albeit part-time, to NOT being one...

Call me picky, call me pedantic (but don't call me late for dinner...) but if Brian was suddenly seized with the desire to visit Mike, it's a bit more than a quick once around the block: Mike lives in Incline Village, Nevada. 465 miles, a seven hour drive.  ;D

That said, I can see no reason why he'd want to anyway. So, the mootest of moot points.

Probably.

Um... like two solo albums, one released one (thankfully) not ?  ;D

I thought he saw first hand what happens when Brian is forced to write while on tour?

Depending on who the “remaining members” are that Peterik is referencing, he could be either spot-on or completely off in that characterization.

There was another recent Peterik interview (published June 11, including some discussion of his work with Brian and the BB’s) where he appears to have been muzzled (or is muzzling himself on that topic):

Whitman: This is supposed to be Brian’s vision of what would have been the next Beach Boys album, correct? He made
That’s Why God Made the Radio and then he wasn’t in The Beach Boys anymore. What’s up with that?

Peterik: I can’t talk about that, but anyway … how about those Bears?

From: http://www.technologytell.com/entertainment/63061/true-survivor-songwritermelodic-rocker-jim-peterik-interviewed/

SJS, nevermind that scene where Landy bullies BW to make "let's go to heaven in my car" in L&M  ::)

If you go on YouTube and look at the footage from the Wembley Show at the end of the C50 Tour, Brian is all smiles.  Maybe he was relieved that it was over. 

I think a book can be written on the whole 2012 BB Saga. 

Hurry, hurry, hurry folks step right up to the Beach Boy circus, The best show in town.

And I think this detail, mentioned by several folks now, is particularly damning in terms of the position that Mike wants to write with Brian alone.

It speaks, potentially, to a bunch of different possibilities. How much did/does Mike really want or need to write with Brian? How much does Brian want to write with Mike?

Given the tone and context of interviews Mike has given post-2012, my total guess is that if he had knocked on Brian’s door during the tour and tried time after time to write and Brian turned him down, he would mention that in some interviews. But who knows? I think, and again, just guessing, that much like many relationships in life, sometimes people don’t want to admit that someone is rejecting them in any form. Some of what may be going on is that Brian just doesn’t really want to write songs with Mike (though he has demonstrated he does want to perform and record with him), and Mike doesn’t want to admit that Brian, and not whatever “people around him”, doesn’t particularly want to write with Mike. Certainly, the “why didn’t they write on tour?” question works both ways; I haven’t heard any reports that Brian was knocking on Mike’s door specifically to write.  

On the another point about the handlers. There are no people like that in BW's organization, they are just Mike's boogeymen for why BW wants nothing to do with him.

Beg to differ, but according to what Paul Dano related late last year, Brian loves Mike, says he's a good man. I'd say their personal relationship - when they get a chance to exercise it - is more than amicable. The problem is between the camps, not the individuals. Probably.

I think, like many rich/famous/successful groups, there is also an element of not being confrontational in person. That is, they may get along reasonably well when talking about the past or shooting the s**t, but still have “issues”, but don’t really voice them face-to-face. Then manager and agents and partners get an ear full later on and sometimes end up having to be the bad guy.

There is usually an element of “camps” complicating a personal relationship. But I think, sometimes, the degree to which Brian and Mike get along and enjoy each other’s company may be slightly overstated. I don’t tend to think it’s *all* the “camps.” (And I’m not saying much of anyone here has made such a sweeping generalization). 

It was just an anecdote, but someone posted recently they had been to the Capitol tower and talked to someone who was there when the TWGMTR album was being recorded, and they seemed to get the sense that the guys all hate each other and “everything is an argument.” I weigh such anecdotes accordingly, but it’s something worth thinking about.

Agreed. And if Mike lived closer than Nevada, I think things would still be the same way.

Is there a single collaborator in the entire history of the band, other than Mike, who consistently has made demands for a certain amount/type of participation, and put pressure in order to try and make a writing partnering a certain, specific way? To the point where during the 1960s when Brian was dealing with so much other emotional issues, that Brian had to additionally deal with the weight of a guilt trip, and felt the need to continually make promises to try and appease Mike and keep him off his back for the then-current project?

I think the answer is no.

Does any other collaborator, family or not, come close to that type of relationship? The only person who seemed to come close was Landy, who seemed to demand a level of participation, as well as use leverage to make sure he got his way come hell or high water. The comparison ends there, since obviously Landy used many unethical tactics, but my point is that it's a very rare thing for Brian to have to deal with, as far as I know.

In other words, Brian meeting up with just Mike (and nobody else present) would be Brian putting himself into a situation that is unlike most other songwriting situations he's used to being in. Yes, it worked for a number of years back in the 1960s, but guess what? People grow up and move on; relationships change. Is it any wonder that this is a situation which Brian may feel he'd like to avoid? Brian should not have a collaborator who is in any kind of political position (due to history, family, etc) to make demands.  I know Mike cowrote a lot of hits and feels this is "owed" to him; but Brian is the best songwriter of his generation (even without Mike), and Mike (despite being talented) is not... plus, Brian shouldn't have to deal with any "demands" type grief at this point, *especially* considering his history. Brian gets to have that privilege and Mike refuses to deal with that reality.

Do I know what the exact parameters of the Joe Thomas/ Brian Wilson songwriting team is like? No, I can't say I do. But I have a feeling that Joe, as well as virtually all other collaborators past and present, have no political power/leverage to make demands or to try and put pressure for things to be "their" way.  

The irony is that I'm sure (based on Mike's own previous comments) that Mike feels that Brian is being "manipulated" by his wife (an insulting insinuation), but it seems that Mike wants to be the one who gets to "manipulate" Brian. If Mike feels Brian is so susceptible to manipulation, why would Mike feel that Mike's own personality wouldn't also be able to (however inadvertently) "manipulate" Brian? Or is it okay when he does it, but not ok when everyone else supposedly does it?

Does Mike feel he has some special magic, ethical, soothing touch when it comes to interacting with Brian which makes Mike's own actions NOT quantifiable as manipulation, but that everyone elses' actions ARE manipulation? How does that work? Seriously. Oh I know: Mike is family, so he gets to feel absolved from ever being part of a manipulative contingent, even though he appears to also the ONLY guy besides Landy to ever make songwriting demands of the type he does. Hypocrisy seems to fuel his logic. Does anyone "get" it? I certainly don't. I feel sorry for Mike, but I don't get where he's coming from; there's ZERO self-awareness.

Ultimately, Brian just needs to be the guy who gets to decide who he works with (and the parameters of that relationship), and Brian gets to decide how much influence he absorbs from his wife's suggestions (just like Mike and his own wife's suggestions which are surely made regularly). It's not 1965 anymore, but somebody in the group forgot to grow up and realize that things change.

The room is Mike's code word for total control as it always has been.

Let me preface this by saying that the following remarks are the rankest speculation:

I think Mike is nostalgic for the Wilson/Love mid-60s heyday, and believes that if he and Brian can just get alone somewhere around a piano, that they can regain that old magic. Mike is probably fooling himself here, that magic is forever gone along with his hair, but you can't fault a guy for dreaming, can you? Brian, on the other hand, has moved on.

I think that you are right on the money with that observation.

I can't fault a guy for dreaming; I CAN fault a guy for dreaming and then additionally demanding, publicly complaining, making accusations, ruining a reunion, etc as a result of his "dreams" not coming true anymore due to a little thing called reality.

Ultimatums suck.

I suspect there's probably a degree of truth in the above…


… and I think this is probably true too.

I reckon – and I have no evidence to support this whatsoever – but I reckon Mike and Brian can still share a beer and laugh at old times – and the antics of boards like this – when (if?) they get together socially. Working/writing together might be a different matter but, y'know, that's their business, not mine. I'll speculate but the days when I thought I was entitled to an opinion are gone.

sh*t, I'm 51 and long for my 24-y-o hey day but no matter how many pushbikes I buy, how much I spend on my hifi and how many Jethro Tull CDs I listen to, it ain't gonna happen.  Doesn't stop me fantasising though.  Don't all guys long to be back in their prime? It's no crime. Kudos to Brian if he has moved on; kudos to Mike for continuing to play great music like he's still in 20s – no-one gets hurt, we all benefit (when we allow ourselves, that is).

Nothing like calling a person out in public to put the pressure on. He didn't ruin the reunion for me. I went to two shows. Everyone was at the shows that I attended. Reality is a bitch and everyone has to deal with it. I don't see Brian any worse for the wear from Mike cajoling him to write new songs. In the end Brian did what he always does in the studio; run the show and do his own thing.

The only "worse for the wear" fallout created by Mike that I saw inflicted on Brian was when Brian wrote in the LA Times article about how hurt and bummed out he was about Mike ending the reunion (which Mike later justified in part by stating his "room" deprivation claims were valid reasons for doing what he did, "set end date" aside - you know if Mike got the room he wanted, the set end date would have been a non-issue).

I know everyone has feelings, and I can't deny Mike's right to feel his own feelings anymore than I can deny anyone else's, but as you said: reality is a bitch, and I think Mike was/is not dealing with reality. It's easier to go on endless tours and pretend that the problem and "room" issue could never have even an iota to do with himself. He IMO is in denial about that, and it is very sad. Maybe the reason why the room didn't happen is not ALL due to Mike... maybe there were other factors at play... but I think it's foolish to think it's completely in no way shape or form due to Mike, his demanding personality, and his track record of shaky lyrics (with occasional exceptions) and endless 1960s song lyric regurgitated references for decades. That's got to, at the very least, be a *part* of it.

The M&B show is Mike's less physically toxic version of Denny's jug of vodka and orange juice; a bottomless distraction that help avoids dealing with the reality in which the songwriting partnership (which he tremendously values and misses) has simply changed, for reasons that surely are valid to Brian, but that Mike must deny are real.

As I've said before, I bet Mike would have gotten some "room" time bit by bit if he'd stuck it out and NOT made demands and public complaints. He lost out. We lost out too.

I'm pretty sure that Melinda's liberation of Brian from Landy was just a case of hopping out of the frying pan and into the fire.

Correct, touring M&B is Mike's addiction to escape the reality of the broken relationships of the real BBs.

Meh...don't sweat it.  Doe-boy can't stand it when he's not the only one spouting faux insider knowledge on the board.

I was just highlighting things that Brian did WITH The Beach Boys, my point being that was able to do solo things AND contribute, albeit part-time, to The Beach Boys.

I really think that a scenario where Brian was doing both a solo thing as well as some BB involvement could have happened if C50 hadn't imploded. I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility.

Seems like an agenda is being pushed to distract from the NPP tour and L&M movie. Next week's talking points will be how the NPP tour's setlist is not as good as the M&B UK shows.

I'll be able to do a firsthand comparison on setlist after next Tuesday 8)

You think so? More an addiction to touring IMO but not that its a bad thing. Many artists who don't need the money continue touring.

Be fascinated to hear your report, Billy.

And if Brian doesn't have that desire, he should quit telling Mike he does. IF that is true, I could see how it might be the source of some of Mike's suspicions about "those around Brian". Brian keeps saying he wants to do this with you but somehow it doesn't happen. Pure speculation.

Carl Wilson's passing and the resultant changes in circumstances surrounding the group must be a large factor.

Ps thank goodness Brian and Mike didn't go with the "catch a wave" lyric for Isn't It Time.

AGD - damn I love being a Beach Boys fan! Has anything changed in the last 30+ years? Weren't we having the same Mike/Brian squabbles back then (meaning US = fans, not you and I). Nothing ever changes.

Now imagine this happening on the C50 tour. Phone rings in Mike's room. "Mike, this is Brian. I have an idea for a song and there is a piano downstairs in the conference room. Wanna meet up?"

That is all that would have to happen. It used to happen, now it doesn't. It isn't age, it's Brian just saying been there, done that. Nothing against Mike except Brian finds it easier to work with someone who doesn't always want to work the words surfing/beach/honey into every song. Good Lord Mike, you wrote Warmth Of The Sun, Good vibrations, Big Sur and yes one of my personal faves, Goin' On. Write those type of lyrics and Brian would call in a heartbeat.

 

But Brian has never complained that he's being denied access to Mike, or that he has a great unfulfilled desire to write with him. Only Mike has ever voiced these complaints; only Mike seemed to be unhappy with the situation.

In that case, one would expect Mike to take some action to remedy matters, especially given that Brian and he spent more time together in 2012 than they had for nearly 40 years. But it's easier for him to complain to the press and cast aspersions at Melinda.

Indeed, it was ever thus, the main difference being that back in they day - that is, pre-internet - our disagreements and debates were far more civilised. Trolls, f*ckwits and sh*tweasels were yet to evolve (or should that be devolve ?). It was a simpler, better time. Damn, but I miss it. The land of lost content. There were giants in those days, real fans. Now, we get mental midgets. It's enough to make the Pope cuss.

When did Brian tell Mike he wanted to write with him, Cam? Your statement suggests he's still saying that, but I don't recall a single interview or public statement within the last nine years or so in which BW said he wanted to write new songs with Mike. Record with him, yes. Tour with him, yes. Otherwise, I'm stumped. Might you have a link?

Well said!  ;D

Judging by the quality of Brian's output over the past 20 years, I would disagree.
*Nothing* can compare to the Landy years ( thank God)

BW was lucky to survive that! :(

Yes, and Brian looks happier.  His smile is natural and not forced like it was in the Landy years.  The talking out of the side of his mouth has also pretty much gone.  He is in a far better place now.  ;D

I'm pretty sure that this is one of the most brainless observations in the entire history of this forum.

No... no that's unfair. I'm not pretty sure, or even probably sure: I'm certain.  :)

Definitely. I wasn't trying to place any blame on Brian. I was just looking at the evidence at hand that indicates Brian doesn't seem to have a strong desire to write with Mike, and that may play into why Mike keeps talking about wanting to work with Brian without addressing Brian's feelings, because those feelings may not be something that makes Mike feel very good.

Mike hasn't talked much, especially lately, about Brian's position on whether he (Brian) wants to write with Mike.

To the degree it appears Mike didn't pursue a songwriting situation with Brian in 2012, a possible defense of his could actually be that Brian doesn't appear to want to do it, so he didn't pursue it. But in order to do that, he'd have to admit that Brian doesn't want to write with him.

Not to mention, Brian probably doesn't want to deeply hurt Mike's feelings by outright saying that he doesn't desire to write with him.  That's a tough, heartbreaking thing to say, and Brian isn't good at that kind of stuff.

If Brian has been wishy-washy about not having outright said so (if he indeed feels that way), well then yes, that's on him (Brian) for not being fully honest and forthcoming. I doubt Brian felt in 2012 that he never wanted to write anything with Mike ever again. I just think Brian wants to not feel pressure about how much control Mike gets over the process, the lyrics, etc. That's why there's someone else there playing interference.

Brian probably just wants the process to be fun (like any songwriter would), and for the participants to not bring awkwardness to the table. Who wants to write in an awkward situation where a fellow bandmate (who's felt slighted for decades for both completely legit, as well as blown-out-of-proportions reasons) is perhaps putting on a half-smile because he's not getting his full way? Brian can sense that stuff, and it's gonna hinder the process.  And truthfully, Brian has people around him for better or for worse (usually for better) attempting to help him out a bit advice-wise in the quality control department.

Didn't someone say awhile back that it was a particular BW bandmate's job to make sure Brian no longer recycles the Shortenin' Bread riff into new material? I don't think Brian was sitting around getting butt-hurt and offended by a bandmate's polite comments and suggestions, but if someone from BW's band (an outsider! the horror!) dared question anything Mike brought to the table, I bet Mike would get relatively more hurt about it, and then again say that Brian is being "controlled" and that the controllers are screwing up the creative process. Brian has been to hell and back, and he has a carefully crafted safety net around him to help him out. That net took years to create a situation that Brian was comfortable in, and it needs to be respected, as Brian is a fragile guy; I do not think Mike respected that safety net whatsoever (if it meant compromising Mike's all-so-important "needs"), and that Mike probably largely viewed it as a threat. It's sad.

IMO, Brian's needs run deeper, and are far more important to his own well-being than Mike's needs are to Mike's own. Emotionally super-sensitive musical geniuses with a history of mental illness get to have priority. Sorry, but it's true. Alan seems to respect that. Mike not so much, and it's always everyone else's fault but his own.

I'm hoping to post Brian's opening night setlist by late Thursday, or at least Friday. :)

I'm going to have to scribble the whole thing down because I don't have earlier shows to work from. Normally (C50, etc.), I just write the most recent setlist down and make changes as they come.

Yes, I'm a nerd....

I can't wait to see it! 8)

Reminds me of something Andy Paley said back in the days of the first solo album sessions, along the lines of "I've been brought in to keep Brian honest, to stop him reworking old riffs". That would be the same Andy Paley, then, who co-authored with BW "Desert Drive", an example of multiple copyright infringements so blatant that even Alan would have to applaud.  ;D

This forum needs more nerds. Nerds more needs. Whatever.  ;D

True, but perhaps without the riff-recycling police, it would be even worse!

I ain't fallin' for THIS again.  The weekly Mike Bar B Q.

Brian has better hair.  And he writes better music.

Bye.

My 2 cents. From the RS story in 2012

"Mike's an entertainer," says Foskett. "Brian is an artist. There's room for both, but it's a fundamental difference, and pretty hard to reconcile.".....

and

One afternoon in February, the Beach Boys crowd into the control room at Ocean Way to listen to the suite. John Stamos, the actor (a serious Beach Boys fan who often performs with Mike Love's band), stands in the back, twirling his sunglasses. When the music ends, the room falls silent. Finally, Stamos breaks the ice. "Magical," he says. Love, sitting next to me on a leather couch, has another reaction, which he demonstrates by putting his fingers into the shape of a gun, placing it under his chin and shooting himself in the head. "It's brilliant, beautiful, but I didn't write it, so it doesn't have that silver cloud on the cumulus nimbus," he says. "It's more cumulus than I probably would do."


http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/the-beach-boys-last-wave-20120621?page=3


Maybe he was there and saw Mike do it but after reading this in June of that year, is there any reason Brian would want to write with Mike? Probably the most insensitive action imaginable.

Add some wins the thread! :lol

The following words by Jon Stebbins have always rung truer to me than anything else as to why things are the way they are/why the C50 ended on a sour note/why Brian and Mike are working independently of one another now etc:

"“Since Carl died in the late ’90s, Mike has basically been the man.  He runs the operations, and he runs the show and I think for the 50th anniversary tour, he had to step back.  Night after night after night after night, Mike is making less money getting reminded that Brian is more popular than him and he has to answer to people instead of calling all the shots himself.”

Is it really though?

Yes it REALLY is.

To put it bluntly
Brian was not under the "care" of Landy.

I don't know if Jason Fine, the guy who wrote that article for Rolling Stone, is still the guy working on Brian's book (Brian recently said they had to switch guys, so I'm not sure if Fine is the before or after in that scenario), but as an aside, that was one of the best (and one of few) excellent pieces written on the reunion, and published as it happened no less. For a guy who went on to work on the "Brian Book", he seemed to do a good job of talking to Mike as well and getting Mike at ease.

It's funny, while I'm well aware of the precarious nature of any BB project and know they can blow anything at any time, I remember thinking the cover blurb for that issue ("The FRAGILE Beach Boys Reunion") and one of the lines in the story (referring to it being one of the most unlikely reunions ever mounted) seemed a bit hyperbolic. The end of the C50 tour proved that those words were far from hyperbolic.

Mike's reaction to Brian's suite is more symbolic to me than it is inflammatory. I've run into tons of people like this. They kind of appear to be joking, but they come across like a total d**k. I do appreciate that Mike followed up and explained his reaction, and it certainly underlines the differing opinions and philosophies about music. It's also telling that Mike doesn't just seem to be thrown by the suite because of its somber nature, but also specifically cites that *he* didn't write it. Who would have thought that John Stamos likes a Brian Wilson-penned album-ending suite on a Beach Boys album more than Mike Love.

It is insensitive, and beyond "locker room" type of talk. It's just plain sh*tty. I know they josh with each other sometimes, but these aren't a pair of grizzled standup comedians f*cking with each other; one of them is proven to be highly sensitive, even if he can sometimes roll with tough talk. Summer's Gone is heartbreaking art, damnit. I say that in all sincerity. Can anyone conceive of a different collaborator having the nards to do/say that type of juvenile gunshot-miming action after hearing such a beautiful and heartfelt song? I can't. It's kinda sick, and I don't feel that's an exaggeration. It made me cringe the first time I read it in 2012. And to do it in front of an interviewer no less? No perceived problem at all with this? Those two have a twisted relationship.

I do not know how the RS interview could not leave all BB fans with a bad taste in their mouths. For people who don't question the sensitivity of that incident, I do wonder what words/actions/mimes would register as questionable on their sensitivity scale. Is *anything* par for the course with Mike? I know: maybe he could find another sick way to mime his feelings about how dark Lay Down Burden was, without Mike's silver cloud. Would that be going too far? That's only a step or two removed.

Next, maybe Brian could mock George Harrison's tragic passing right in front of Mike when he hears Mike's heartfelt tune, Pisces Brothers.

I just had the thought pop into my head that 20 years ago, Brian did make fun of Mike on camera, by having Al hold his nose while singing, and also the "senile" joking comment from the Stars & Stripes video. But I kinda feel like that type of thing is more in the past with Brian (being 20 years ago); I doubt he'd do that type of thing in public these days. I also think the suicide gesture is kicking the insensitive thing up several notches compared to those instances. IMHO.

Anyway... Even for those people who think that Brian can "take" that type of communication style from Mike without any problems whatsoever… Surely you can't blame people surrounding Brian for thinking that that type of communication is inappropriate or insensitive at best, and for wanting Brian to not be exposed to that type of crap. Maybe Brian can "take it", but I also don't think he'd dish out that type of response himself regarding sensitive art (should Mike sincerely attempt to write a very sensitive song).

The most important thing I take away from the Summer's Gone RS debacle: if Mike was left to his own devices and was not questioned by others, we'd have different and inferior "positive" lyrics to Til I Die and Summer's Gone, perhaps the two most moving songs in the catalog. It's good for him to have a checks and balances system if Mike is (or was) to be a part of Brian's most sensitive music, because dude hasn't been a cowriter on many deeply sensitive tunes in decades, and I don't think he has that touch anymore.

It's certainly down there

"Magical," he says. Love, sitting next to me on a leather couch, has another reaction, which he demonstrates by putting his fingers into the shape of a gun, placing it under his chin and shooting himself in the head. "It's brilliant, beautiful, but I didn't write it, so it doesn't have that silver cloud on the cumulus nimbus," he says. "It's more cumulus than I probably would do."


I have friends that do this to me all the time. And I to them. But if an outsider did it (and has), I would say "What is your issue??". But people I know, I just laugh or ask "you don't like it?" So Mike gets a pass from me on that. And also, let me say this. I don't know Mike Love. Not many do. BUT, as a 56 year old person with extensive dealings with all types of people, those who want all positivity and no negatives in their art, what ever that may be, usually have enough negatives in their lives to want a release from that.  Mike is DRIVEN. Always trying to please......someone. Reminds me a friend whom I watched twist into knots when his mother was visiting him and she said "Have you seen your brother's new house. Its so nice. Why can't you have a big house like that?" He tripped over himself trying to explain that he was working on it. Sad.

As I remember it has been over the past 20 some years and as recent as pre-C50. One I seem to remember was at a Thanksgiving Brian and Mike shared, one I think was when they were together on top of Capitol maybe, and another was during the pre-C50 discussions I think. Then he did ask Mike to write with him during TWGMTR right? I don't think it is in Brian interviews, it is in Mike interviews I believe.

I keep forgetting about the ridiculous myopia in this forum.

Yeah, it must be an insurmountable bitch when folks here don't buy into your own spin. And, as is crass as it is, your deridingly incessant insults are infamously  smothered in your usual blend of arrogance. Run away from it as far and as fast as you can but you easily qualify for being as much a part of the problem as anyone. Has " fuckwits, shitweasels, mental midgets" become your rosetta stone for how far you've evolved? Or should that be devolved?  

such an idiotic statement.

Mike trying to sound poetic and just coming off like an ass. per usual

I dunno...with a statement as out of line as yours was, I'm surprised they weren't harsher . Even the biggest anti-Melinda person wouldn't imply she was worse than landy

From a idiotic man. Mike, thank BW for once.....

Anybody saying Melinda is worse than Landy are a complete nutcase.

Mike used to be a pretty good wordsmith. These days, I think he uses complicated words to try and reinforce that point. Problem is, he often uses them awkwardly (as in this instance) or misuses them altogether, as in his frequent misuse of the word "alliteration" to describe things that aren't.

 Who won? It ended up on the record as Brian intended, right?

And add to that someone that enjoys throwing petrol on a fire.

As far as I know, yes. Although, Brian from what I read wanted the album to be called "Summer's Gone" (which I think is much more poignant), which Mike objected to the "negativity" of... so that portion of Brian's vision was unfortunately compromised. Not as bad as it could've been, with the song being butchered with upbeat lyrics though. Probably because some meddling "outsider" stepped in, or perhaps Brian just put his foot down, Summer's Gone (the song) came out unscathed. Good old Jon Bon Jovi - I never knew he had it in him.

On top of the Capitol building, he asked Mike to write lyrics for an already composed tune.

Which Mike refused to do.

As to the other cases, without documentation, I'm afraid I can give much credit to your statement. If they're just coming from Mike, though, they're scarcely impartial reports.

You know you are fuct when the guy accused of being on Mike's payroll to spread anti-Brian/Melinda sentiment tells you that your anti-Melinda statement is "one of the most brainless observations in the entire history of this forum."

Mods, seriously, this kind of slander, against a band members family member, with zero basis in fact, should not be tolerated.  If Mike or Brian says or does something crazy it's fair game.  Hell, if Melinda said or did something crazy it's fair game.  But this is a baseless accusation as it equates Brian's loving wife with the evil Eugene Landy.  Someone please call this guy out if it hasn't happened already.

EoL

I know I'm late coming to the table, but I just wanted to muse.  At least for ME there's been significant changes in the past 30 years.  About this time 30 years ago I would have been dreading 2nd Grade, and knowing only the name of the BB band plus a few overplayed songs.  Sometimes you guys think back to concerts, events, albums, and articles that are older than I, and I wind up feeling like a kid standing on the periphery of a group of grown-ups having a deep conversation.  My own personal view of the BB in general has turned into a wake-up call with each twist and turn new to me.  The very first thing I knew of them was red white and blue, and that was an absolute wonderful time to be just starting to learn how to be patriotic along with every school child.  But from then on for me it's been a series of learning something that is already long past, but wishing it wasn't true and chiding myself that it's already long past so I'd better just accept it.  Yeah, at least for me there's been significant changes these past 30 years.

 Is the top of the Capitol building Mike Love's room? I think not.  :lol

The Capitol incident has Brian saying he wants to write with Mike, so I guess that is one to my point. He asked Mike to write with him for TWGMTR so that's two to my point. You won't accept the rest on so I guess we are done at 2 and 0.

Wait! Did Mike mean "Summer's Gone" is "probably" more cumulus than he would do, using the word "probably" to suggest the he's leaving the door open for more cumulus?

With apologies to CD and Cam.  ;D

Very likely...Almost certainly...he must mean he now renounces his long touted positivity and is now embracing the cumulus.   8)

 :lol

The answer seems somewhat cloudy...

Actually, Brian ended up changing it from Summer's Gone to That's Why God Made The Radio not because of any complaint from Mike (as far as we know), but because after having so much fun working with the guys again, he decided it might not be the last Beach Boys album after all. This is per Joe Thomas in an interview from the summer of 2012.

But then Mike decided a few months later that it probably will be. If you get my drift.  :-\

Got it.  I guess I had it backwards a bit. It still seems like a somewhat tragic artistic abortion though. Brian was thinking ahead, planning an overall arc of a musical and artistic statement, and it got cut off at the knees. I'm glad we got NPP, but it's sad that his initial artistic intentions got compromised. Hasn't he been through that enough? It's emotionally traumatic; if ever there was a guy who deserves unconditional artistic support, it's BDW. Not all bands should be democracies.

We are all entitled to our opinions, even Dr. Love, however, it seems to me that the difference between Mike and Brian goes beyond Fosket's observation.  Mike has no appreciation for Brian the artist.

To Mike, a song's value is strictly based on units sold, so in his view "Kokomo" is greater than "Surfs Up".

I am not sure how you can be a fan Brian Wilson and not be overwhelmed by the TWGMTR closing suite. It is something that I had waited 36 years for.

What always strikes me about these conversations that we delve into about Mike and Brian is this:  Everybody acts like it's so shocking, and so horrible that the two can't play nice with each other, when we ALL have family members, friends, people we've known that we're completely estranged from!

This happens in every family.  Some people just rub each other the wrong way.  It's a fucking MIRACLE that Brian and Mike were able to play together for the 50th celebration tour.  I've got a half-sister and a uncle that are fighting over about $1000 worth of life insurance proceeds right now.  They both think they're right.  The rest of us think they're crazy.

I worked for a guy for a few years, he was the nicest guy in the world but the job just run me down.  I'd never go back to work for him, even though I really like the guy and he's a hell of a human being.  You couldn't, literally, pay me enough money to take that job again. 


Brian and Mike are in a similar place.  They gave us a pretty good run, they worked together solid for 10 years, then spotty for another 20 years, then off and on for another 20 years.  They gave us a lot of great music.  Let them agree to disagree.

You are so right, Ron, it's sad. Very, Very well said.

To be honest, I don't think this issue bothers Mike OR Brian nearly as much as it does us. I think* they're both happier apart. So, really, as much as it sucks for us as fans of the band, in the end it's worked out for the best.

On a different note...am I the only one who thinks this whole thread is pointless? Neither side is going to back down and say 'you know what? I was wrong, you have raised good points'. All we've been doing is argue the same points over and over . Very few of us know any semblance of what actually went on/goes on behind the scenes, so a lot of this is based on speculation. Those of us who DO know a bit can't really say anything anyway, so at the end of the day...what's the point?

I'm half tempted to move this to the Sandbox.

I love it when a plan comes together so well that you can't see the sunlight through the joins.  ;D

I must needs qualify my sweeping statement by noting I've been on this forum, and its direct antecedents since February 1998. There's been dumb, dumber... and now this.  :)


Word. Chuckie's ten commandments were framed over six years ago, and are probably need of a reboot. Especially #2.

I'm half inclined to agree with you. Probably.

Mike also resides in Fairbanks Ranch, California, part of the greater Rancho Santa Fe section of northern San Diego County.

Not only is this thread pointless, it's not the first one of its kind, and it certainly won't be the last :)

What was that quote about "Brian Wilson" acting for straight white males in the same capacity as "Judy Garland" does for the gay community? People love drama, tragedy and narrative arcs, and they love inserting themselves into them. It validates their own emotions.

We don't actually know sh*t about "Brian Wilson" or "Mike Love", and that's the way it should be.

I like that. Well said.

The bulk of the problem resides with those who don't know how much they don't know.

Agree with Billy, Loaf...and find it "manufactured conflict."

"Prolly." (Text-speak.)

Could not resist!  :lol

Another thing less to do with any particular instance with Brian and Mike and more to do with human nature is the possibility that at some points over the years Mike has brought up writing stuff together, and Brian’s essentially going “suuuure, yeah, let’s do that some time”, sort of in the same way your parents would give that response when you were a kid and asked to go to Disneyland or something. In other words, placate just enough to get through the conversation, and nothing more. Sort of like when he used to say he burned the Smile tapes just to get the conversation on to something else.

That being said, I again have to agree with Wirestone. There is little to no evidence Brian has wanted to write with Mike post-C50 or even during or in the immediate run up C50. (And even then, he and/or Joe did invite Mike to add lyrics to several songs, perhaps a placating/political move). And in pre or post-C50 instances where someone has said they do want to write together, it’s usually Mike mentioning it, not Brian.

At this stage, there is so much personal BS and business/politics involved, I think the most likely way to ever get them together is through some intermediary. Essentially what Joe Thomas did on C50, but since Mike has apparently soured on Joe, someone else. Preferably, a Jerry Schilling manager-type that truly would be working for all of them. But there’s no way I can see that they can just call each other up, write an ENTIRE album together, AND record and release it without someone massaging the situation as it goes along, both politically and musically.  

As for albums, if TWGMTR winds up being the swan song for The Beach Boys, I think its a fitting sending to their recording career. 

I still think that, eventually at some point, Brian, Al, Mike, and Bruce (and maybe David, Blondie, Ricky) will be onstage together again at some point.  I don't think it'll be a full tour, but likely for a one-off / farewell type show. 

My attitude with C50 now is that we got a better than expected album, and a better than expected tour (which unfortunately hasn't been properly documented with a decent live release, but that's another story).  Those of us who saw the tour should consider ourselves lucky since that was a nice moment in time.  The show I saw three years ago this past Monday night is in my top ten concerts of all time. 

It was what it was.  It was great.  And its over. 

Hey Jude - people do things in their own time.  Each band has a full schedule of events coming up.  And what is this "evidence" of "writing together?" Does it mean you are on "speed dial?"

Writing together as "illusory" as a trip to Disneyland is ridiculous. Those two principals are still in a business together.  BRI.

What you or I see or don't see is of no consequence...that band does it's own stuff, in its own way, in its own timeline.  When they are "good and ready" you'll get a good surprise.  C50 was one of the best kept secrets in history.  They won't be telling anyone (nor should they) if and when they have plans.  It is a Facebook/social media mentality.

Relax and enjoy the music.  Please.  ;)

First, my take on it as a fan, then the admin stuff will follow in another post, so there is no confusion.

The last paragraph, Sheriff, is just not true. I'm surprised Andrew or anyone else who has researched the timeline of various sessions and shows has not stepped in to correct some obvious omissions and errors in this. Let's get down to brass tacks here and I'll take a shot at pointing out some of the obvious ones.

A good portion of Brian's musical activity after Landy was given the boot was devoted to making music for the Beach Boys, or at least being involved in projects for them.

We had the Andy Paley sessions, which would also involve Don Was and his crew of session players. According to Paley, as those songs were being worked up, Brian was arranging and writing with the Beach Boys' voices in mind, specifically assigning parts to each band member in some cases as he went through the arrangement.

Prior to that, there is a Pulse magazine article from Fall '95 where Don Was spelled it out relative to the documentary he was making: "Halfway through the movie, what Brian said to me was, 'I want more than anything to make a Beach Boys album, but YOU go talk to them', so I did and they were all anxious to work with him. Since the film is partly about him repairing his damaged relationships, I thought, fine - let's get it on film, even if it's uncomfortable. They were all receptive to that, but ultimately the lawsuits prevented it from happening."

Again: "the lawsuits prevented it from happening".

Fast forward: Was gets into the work currently being done musically after the film was completed and out: "Wilson is now writing songs with Mike Love again, and Was says that "of the 40 new songs we've got, a handful are as good as anything he's written".

This "40 new songs" includes the Paley material, Soul Searchin, Still A Mystery, the Baywatch Nights thing, etc.

And what happened? Carl vetoed the new songs. Brian had been writing new songs post-Landy with the Beach Boys in mind, and Carl didn't want Soul Searchin or what could be the other songs in general that were chosen on a Beach Boys album. Instead of Paley, Was, Was' stable of session players, and collaborations with Mike, they tried to set up Brian to write with Sean O'Hagan.

And Brian wasn't into that...considering he had started writing original material with his cousin Mike for the Beach Boys as soon as the lawsuits got cleared up, songs which Brian and Mike and Don Was seemed to be excited about, and Carl didn't want them on the album.

Fast-forward: Mike's idea to do the country covers album Stars And Stripes. This was something of a trend at the time for those who don't remember, there was a tribute to the Eagles that sold tons of copies and got this whole country tribute thing underway, since labels like to ride coattails to sales any chance they can.

So the Beach Boys got Joe Thomas on board to produce, but the exec producers had a stipulation that Brian be involved. So he was, but wasn't because the band apparently didn't have much for him to do or didn't do much, however the spin. But it felt more contractual that he had to be there.

But...he was there as a Beach Boy, in the subsequent videos and also on the Letterman show singing "Little Deuce Coupe" with a singer named James House. And the Letterman cameras gave Brian plenty of close-up time because having him singing live on TV with the band was an event.

Having him sing background vocals to James House when given such an opportunity? Draw your own conclusions how that absurdity was allowed to happen.

Fast forward again: The Pet Sounds Sessions. Most of us know the story about Mike and the liner notes and such. How about this:

A limited-run tour was offered to the Beach Boys to perform Pet Sounds live as a tie-in.

Carl vetoed it. Find the reasons why, they're out there.

Right after this, Carl's health began to deteriorate. We have threads on this board explaining more of what went on in-depth with BRI and all of the behind-the-scenes happenings, so search them. But for a time Mike brought David Marks back to fill in for Carl.

Then after Carl's passing, it was chaos. You had Al Jardine and Mike basically at each others throats after Mike had launched a campaign to throw Al out of the band, and they were not on friendly terms to put it mildly. So the Beach Boys brand was literally in chaos. And immediately after, we got Mike's "Endless Summer Band" which wasn't all that great, we got Al's "Family And Friends" band, and we got Brian launching his first solo tour on the back of Imagination, a tour which I happened to see at Symphony Hall in Boston.

Now, Sheriff, and others -

How exactly was Brian not into the Beach Boys' activities immediately after Landy was out of the picture? He wrote songs with the Beach Boys in mind, recorded demos and full tracks with Andy Paley, he wrote with Mike Love, he got the band in the studio to cut songs with Don Was...Carl vetoed it.

He got into the Stars And Stripes thing, appearing on stage, video, and TV with the Beach Boys as they tried to boot-scoot their way onto the country charts and even sang backup for a country singer on Letterman to promote the album. It underperformed.

There was the Pet Sounds box, a subsequent mini-tour to promote it got vetoed by Carl.

While doing the Don Was documentary, he wanted to work with the Beach Boys and Don Was reached out, but the lawsuits prevented it from happening.

And after Carl's passing, the band's whole identity and structure was in chaos. And Mike eventually got his touring band, Al got sued for getting his own, and Brian eventually did his own tour too.

So...questions or additions? That last paragraph if not the entire point of the post I'm replying to just isn't supported by the facts.

:lol  OK, if I use that statement elsewhere? No amount of truth was ever truer. :)

I didn't say it was immediate...

Right. Immediate, that word makes all the difference. How about 3-4 years?

Anyway, consider those years between Landy getting the boot and Carl's passing which threw the whole band dynamic  into chaos (legally, personally, and professionally), and you'll see plenty of Beach Boys activities from Brian Wilson which refutes the original claims in the post above. It's too bad Carl vetoed at least a few of the plans that seemed to have potential and one which saw Brian and Mike writing new songs together, and it's too bad the lawsuit got in the way of Don Was' plans to work with them, and all the rest of the barricades that were put up.

All, anyone that reads the history of The Beach Boys, or has lived through it like some of us have, know that is a band (and I love them so much) that has let the opportunity train pull out of the station time and time again while they wait on the platform hoping for a better one to come along. And then have then boarded what looked like a better train, only to find out its all polish and no engine.

The problems are numerous. With all the stuff that happened to them, its a wonder that good things have happened at all. In the latter stages of their career, it has been others who have made those things happen. The ball really started rolling again for them after the Good Vibrations boxset. And that would never of happened without David and Mark pushing like crazy to make it as good as it was. The two-fers also helped in that area. It got people thinking about the music again.

But as we know the blunders continued. Pushing aside Don Was for Sean O'Hagan? REALLY? Bruce, what the hell were you thinking? There were also rumblings at the time, as it was told to me, that the group just did not like Andy Paley. I don't know that back story, but I heard it enough that it started to make sense to me why other decisions around that time were being made.

And yes, there were people, including some in Brian's own family, who were calling Melinda "Mel-Landy". Ginger Blake even said the life that Brian was living with Melinda was "the surrendered Brian Wilson" that had grown complacent.  Mike Love told Don Was, which Was repeated, that if Brian was off his meds, the would write better songs. So everyone has an angle. Its so sad, but that is how business runs. Look at the history of CCR and you will see brother against brother. It happens.

I didn't say worse.  I implied that I believe Melinda is also controlling Brian and the message.

Heh...dramatic much?

Brian's recent songs sound pretty good to me.  Although, I'm not sure what time period Mike is referring to here. 

Come on now, you had to know that saying that was going ruffle a few feathers, right?

Do you have proof to back up your libelous statement?

Exactly, Billy!

There was also the collaboration with Status Quo on Funx3.  They did UK tv appearances with Brian.  I couldn't believe he was there!  This was all around the same time as Stars and Stripes so I guess he really was back with the band.

Of course there's no proof. It's typical, unfortunately.

Yeah, looking at the post history it seems to be a trend.

Cue Queen's 1979 hit song now...

Billy is wearing a Freddie Mercury outfit! :hat

And consider those angles too. After a divorce, actually it would have been over a decade at least after the divorce, can anyone reasonably expect a friend or relative to have good things to say about a new relationship? Feelings are still raw, the negativity of the whole thing still colors opinions and forms biases against people, it's a part of everyday life and something that happens in nearly every case of divorce or even a relationship gone bad for whatever reason. It's not positive, and that comes out. In this case, consider too how much contact she actually had with Brian in the intervening years. Weigh the words and opinions with that.

As for the Mike comment, what screams out to me at least is look at the conditions being set up or implied. So Brian was writing with Mike, he was writing for the Beach Boys, they had Don Was ready to pull it together in the studio, they even had a handful of original songs and collaborations that some of these participants seemed excited about...

But Mike thought they weren't good enough, or he could be doing better songs? I won't even get into the reason he gave, but look at that kind of opinion at face value. They wanted Brian back working with the band, he was willing and able and did. Mike wanted to write songs with Brian, they wrote songs together as soon as the lawsuit cleared up. They wanted material for a new album, if you believe Don Was (and I have no reason not to) they had a supply of up to 40 songs to choose from, and we have a few that we can hear were worked up in the studio. Carl vetoed Soul Searchin, that we know. But how about the other 3 dozen on hand and whatever Mike and Brian were writing together at that time?

But now it's an issue of quality? So it wasn't Brian's participation, it wasn't his willingness to participate, it didn't involve him wanting to work with the Beach Boys on new music because he got involved in doing just that...

...instead it's the quality of the songs and songwriting? Is it just me that sees more than a few issues revolving around that? For one, it paints a different picture to say the songs Brian and Mike were writing didn't meet whatever standards of "quality" seem to have been in place than it does to find other reasons why they didn't write together much after that. Not to mention the fact the Beach Boys basically were in ruins after 1998 in several ways.

If anyone believes that the Mike vs. Brian angle is a uniquely complicated knot, step into the world of the Kinks!

http://ultimateclassicrock.com/dave-davies-kinks-mick-avory/ (http://ultimateclassicrock.com/dave-davies-kinks-mick-avory/)


Somewhere in the bizarro world, where up is down and dogs sleep with cats, there is a Kink-centric Andrew G. Doe type. A man who has devoted decades of his life to investigating Kinksonian miutiae. This man is privy to insider information, and he will guard it...with his honor, with his life. And he will lord over you with said information. Yay verily.

:lol

PICTURES!!!!  I DEMAND PICTURES 

As a matter of fact, I think it should be a mod requirement to post their own pics in Freddie Mercury outfits

Dictionary definition of "out of the frying pan and into the fire": said when you move from a bad or difficult situation to one that is worse.

You were saying ?  ;D

He ain't saying nothing no more....that job has been laid off.

He hath been smitheth with thine mighty banhammer?

Thou has been banished with thy mighty ban hammer.

Such a beautiful thing. As if all the jimmies in the world had been rustled and were suddenly unrustled.

Might one say there's a sudden Job vacancy ?

I'll get my coat...

At least your family's fighting.  There's a lot of ignoring going on in mine.  Most of my paternal side are racist Bible-beaters.  My late father seems to have been the one notable exception since he married my dark skinned Isan mother.  The entire immediate family is treated like the black sheep.

I voiced an opinion counselor.  Get your terminology correct.

How the f*** are you posting after being banned?

He was never banned or the ban was lifted.

How many times does this clown have to ruin our circus.

Can't have a circus without clowns, dontchasee.

He was banned, I saw the confirmation.  I never lifted his ban, and neither did GF.

I just Re banned him.

Just how bad does someone have to be to get banned?

You have to be a super duper meanie head.

Or the real nobody. ;)

Nobody is real, nobody to get hung about.

Am I reading this right? AGD banned?
 nah

"It's like deja vu all over again" - Yogi Berra

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php?PHPSESSID=1571a9def68cdf47edaf212fdec35761&topic=18376.msg479663#msg479663 (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php?PHPSESSID=1571a9def68cdf47edaf212fdec35761&topic=18376.msg479663#msg479663)

Uh uh...it was Job who was banned...and then found a way to sneak past it and post again....and then was banned again.

That's horrible... It's sad when people get caught up in being 'right' and get to a point where they want to be so right that they won't even speak to their loved ones. 

We're all beating a horse that's been dead for years, but another thing to always keep in mind specifically about the 'Boys is that in my opinion, nobody in the family had any idea how to deal with Brian's mental illness, never handled it very well, and to this day still don't understand it.  Mike has known Brian for 70 years and still doesn't get the illness thing.  That's another typical reaction, though, usually when you get a loved one with a sickness like that the people immediately around him or her have no clue what it means or how to deal with it.  They do a lot of blaming and pointing fingers, and searching for answers to questions that don't have answers.  They spend all kinds of time in denial, and they keep hoping it'll get better when usually it's a problem with no solution, only treatment.  Mike's still around the blaming phase.  I give him a pass on that, personally, because if it happened in my family I probably wouldn't have a good understanding of it either. 

So after you attempt to understand that, have the exact same guy become a drug addict on top of it.  Now try to understand or find a solution to *that*. 

When people say mean, hateful things it's because they've been hurt by something or are afraid of something.  That's just psychology 101.  Mike says a lot of mean, hateful things.  Figure the rest of it out!

Now after ALL of that, drip on top of it that these mf'rs are SEVENTY now.  Nothing changes in the minds of 70 year olds.  That ship has sailed...

A question I've often asked myself, and increasingly frequently...

I'm so glad he's gone. Even when he was only posting about which songs he liked he came across as really obnoxious and confrontational.