The Smiley Smile Message Board

Something that has always bugged me...
 Any theories on why Brian sided with Mike and Al in 1977 before the MIU sessions? Previously, he'd voted with Carl and Dennis, but all of a sudden that changed...

Mike found the key to the padlock on Brian's fridge that Marilyn had been hiding from him.

Fast forward two years and the result was very predictable....

I had always assumed it was because of Landy v.1 and money. I would like to hear a more authoritative answer as well.

I'd guess drugs had a lot to do with it. Maybe the post-Landy Brian wanted to stay clean (for a time anyway). And Carl and Dennis had their own substance issues, so maybe the more dynamic and lively Mike n Al faction swayed Brian. Money is never too far from decision making, so maybe also siding with Mike and Al represented the best prospect for bucks. The Mike-favoured retro 15BO made the top 10, whereas the Brian & Carl Love You album made no.56. Carl wasn't writing, Dennis was into his solo thing. And this was only 4 years after Endless Summer.

I think summer 1977 is when Brian's vote departed from the previously solid Wilson voting block.

I think the 1977 September break-up of the band and subsequent meeting at 10452 two weeks later had a lot to do with it.

Ahhh...fixed my post. For some reason, though, I thought the fact that Brian gave his vote in favor of the TM Dynamic Duo led up to the fight, but I see I have it backwards. Still, though, what Brian side with Mike, considering the tension between the two (captured for posterity at the Largo show earlier in the year)?

Loaf, you touched on something that I was already thinking about...maybe by this point, Brian too preferred the idea of them being a retro band. It would make sense, because those were songs *he* had written and had become famous for.

When Brian "came back" in 1976, and for many, many years after that, BB fans/media/band members/general music fans/record companies/etc were waiting for Brian to make deep, emotional, complex, progressive (?), artistic, hit, timeless - you fill in the adjective, but you know what I mean - music. And they are still waiting. MIU? L.A. Light Album? Keepin' The Summer Alive? BB1985? BW1988? Still Cruisin'? Imagination? GIOMH? What I Really Want For Christmas? That Lucky Old Sun? TWGMTR?

So, in 1977 Brian voted to make - and did make - more vintage Beach Boys-like music? A lot of it, actually. Maybe he knew something (about himself) that we didn't?

So "Adult Child", most of it written in '77, was vintage Beach Boys music, right Sheriff?

Didn't the CBS contract signed in 1977 force him to side with Mike and Al?

Not exactly, but it did have more of a retro rather than forward thinking sound although the synth textures predated new wave, and had a very punk DIY approach (as opposed to sound)

Just for the sake of our keeping our timeline straight, Adult/Child was written and recorded before these things (the break-up, the subsequent meeting, and the vote) happened.

Um, yeah.

"H.E.L.P. Is On The Way" (1970 Beach Boys)
"Games Two Can Play" (1970 Beach Boys)
"On Broadway" (oldie/cover)
"Shortenin' Bread" (oldie/cover/whatever)

"Life Is For The Living", "Still I Dream Of It", "Deep Purple", "It's Over Now" - Dick Reynolds-influenced, vintage 1964 Beach Boys Christmas Album-sounding

"Lines", "It's Trying To Say", "Everybody Wants To Live", "Hey Little Tomboy" - very simplistic, very Brian, not groundbreaking or earth shattering

Hey, I like Adult Child. I think it has been overrated a bit through the years. The vocals were too embarrassing to release, however. Again, I like it but it's not special music. It's referred to as "the Big Band album", yet there is hardly any Big Band sound, maybe a track or two. Other than Brian's vocals, yeah, it's Beach Boys music, very typical 1976/77 Beach Boys music.

I think Love You tanking was a major issue. For Brian, that was the first time since Friends that he'd made a serious effort at putting together a complete, artistically satisfying album. There's an interview around the time where he's basically dumbfounded about the label not viewing "Roller Skating Child" as a hit single. He said he put a lot of work into it, but they just weren't feeling it.

I think he realized that rather than struggle for his art and face tons of grief, he could just sign along with whatever Mike put together and cash the checks. All Brian had to do was add bass notes and chords to a couple of Mike Love's hooks and maybe submit a song or two he'd been goofing around with. Al or Bruce or whoever would put everything else together for him. If he was in the mood, the band would even humor him and let him arrange - although he usually wasn't in the mood.

I'm sure he also recognized that Al and Mike were less likely to get him in trouble with drugs.

Letting Mike do all the work pretty much went fine until KTSA, when the label decided it could care less about new BBs output. Without even needing to get it together a bit for an album, Brian basically just let himself go completely. Enter Landy.

Correct me if anything is incorrect:

The band did for all intent and purpose split up in Sept. 1977, but leading up to and even after they "patched it up", there were two separate camps within the band, who flew separately, drove in separate cars, etc. while on tour. The Wilsons, and Love-Jardine, with Brian's sporadic appearances putting him with the Wilsons...in other words, the camp that was into partying and the camp that was not. That's obvious, been reported often.

Consider their contract issues. They were having literally several million dollars waved in front of them, most notably by CBS. But they still had a few albums due to close out their existing contract with Warners, and that was to be fulfilled before they could sign with CBS, cash in on lucrative advances and other CBS offerings, and begin recording an album for CBS.

Brian was upset by the way his songs had been rejected and the music he was offering which was more personal in nature was not considered for release. Judge the quality of that music for yourself, but he was stung by the rejection. And he was tired of the band, period. He didn't like working with them, he didn't want to work with them, he didn't want to write with Mike, etc.

Consider all of the band members were pretty much feeling the same way about each other at this specific time, they were not getting along and would probably have preferred not having to deal with each other.

Yet there was a multi-million dollar carrot being dangled in front of them by CBS among others to keep working and releasing music.

And...as Warners had done, CBS put a specific clause into their contract for the BB's: Brian had to be involved in the recording process, I think the percentage was even spelled out as 70% of the music had to involve Brian for the contract to be met.

And Brian at that point just wasn't into working with the band. Did he slack off just to meet the contract? Judge for yourself.

Carl wanted to do new music and progressive sounding recordings, but he wasn't in the shape to do it at this time. Mike wanted to stay the course that had fans filling the arenas, but he couldn't produce much of anything. Dennis was on his own solo album kick, obviously, but even he wasn't the kind of leader who could run the whole band's musical direction, much less produce a full album. Al - wild card.

So Mike finds the MIU deal, studio and living quarters far removed from LA and the distractions for all involved, and it would cross off another thing Warners needed contractually before they could cash the multi-million dollar CBS checks and jump labels with their new deal.

Brian had done Love You, the Adult Child music was rejected...why not go along for the ride? Is he that much of a presence on MIU? Do his contributions really stand out?

It could be a case of the band needing his name to be on the project, Brian at that point probably couldn't give a sh*t what they put out, there was a deal in the works, Carl was in bad shape and Dennis was erratic...maybe he figured all they need me to do is show up, the contract requirement that my name is somewhere on this stuff gets filled, and I basically don't need to do much more than that. Since, perhaps, what he did offer them in the recent past apparently was not what they wanted from him, or what was even at some point not good enough to promote. Who knows.

So the guy is in the middle of needing to be involved contractually for the band's sake, but not wanting to do much with them, a mutual feeling within the band in general at that time. Plus, CBS was calling and waving big checks.

They gave Warners MIU, the rejected Christmas album, and off to CBS to record some new music for an album and be able to get those big checks.

Where soon after, according to legend, Walter Yetnikoff declared "I think I've just been f***ed" after he heard the songs they worked up for the album.  :)

Why did Brian "side" the way he did? I naturally don't know exactly, I think he'd obviously be best to ask that, but put into context of what was happening musically and personally with his bandmates and family members, maybe it was the path of least resistance considering neither Carl nor Dennis seemed either willing or able to pick up the slack and move forward. And Brian apparently owed CBS 70% participation on the albums, even though that came as his "executive producer" name credit more than actual contributions to the subsequent album(s).

Not so much corrections as two further points.

1 - The MIU sessions were pretty much a direct result of signing with CBS while still owing Reprise an album without realising it. In other words, blind panic.

2 - given the session dates and track titles, I'm increasingly of the opinion that no Christmas album was ever delivered to Reprise, much less rejected. The sessions wrapped in early December 1977, and seasonal songs were recorded in tandem with their secular equivalents, thus demolishing the long-held supposition that MIU evolved out of a putative Christmas album. Finally - and as ever I stand to be corrected on this - there's just the sole source for there being such an album, the title, the track listing and that it was set to be released in 1977 but was rejected.

Surprised they didn't go the route of the old standby for contractual obligations, the live album.

Okay, the following is just a theory, and likely 100% bullshit...

Carl had been rejecting Brian's work for a minute by that point. The MT Vernon & Fairway story is well known, and I imagine that stung. The original mix of 15 Big Ones was supposedly rejected, with Carl tweaking it no little bit. Carl had  to finish up Love You when Brian apparently lost interest. Most of us have heard the boots of the Love You piano demos, featuring Brian playing the songs on the piano with Mike apparently digging the material. There is a less heard longer version of the I'll Bet He's Nice demo, with Mike talking about the last song being a 'motherfucker' and basically praising the hell out of whatever the previous song was. So... maybe Brian at this time felt that Mike appreciated his songs more than Carl did, and since he was more in favor of celebrating the oldies that he wrote rather than the more progressive period where he was less involved...well, maybe that's why he voted with Mike and Al.

Just a thought, and I'm sure I'm wrong.

By 1977 Mike was Brian's biggest musical supporter. He would applaud a Brian Wilson turd while hoping to write lyrics to it. Why wouldn't Brian side with his cousin?

Did Brian dislike Carl's production alterations to the 15 Big Ones and Love You tracks?  Or did he take these alterations as criticisms of his own work?  Also, AGD mentioned in a different thread a while back that there was resistance from within the band to the big band approach he took with some of the Adult/Child tracks.  Were Carl or Dennis among those resisting?

Consider that the bigger issue may have been that Carl was not in good shape at this time, he may have wanted to produce more at this time but some felt he wasn't able to do it due to various health/substance issues, yet they still had the Warner Bros. contract to fulfill and needed a new album.

So who else would that task fall on? Dennis? Like Carl he wasn't up for it. Mike? He didn't produce. Brian? He didn't really want to be involved any more than he had to, right? He lost interest in working with the band, yet every contract the band had depended on having Brian involved in the music.

So Mike and Al come along with a ready-made travel plan, complete with recording studio, living arrangements, a chance to get out of LA, and someone willing and able to actually work on an album.

That's my guess...Brian taking the path of least resistance and perhaps the path where he'd need to be less involved while still being involved for contracts' sake.

Basically what I already spelled out in my post above.  :lol




PS: It was apparently Mike who directly questioned Brian's musical direction after hearing a few tracks from A.C, but Carl as well, I believe, wasn't 100% behind Brian's productions and music in general at this time, including questioning having Brian on stage if he was going to be erratic, apparently. Feel free to correct this, but I don't think Carl's support was all that loyal or consistent for his brother's musical contributions at this time and into the next decade or more.

I heard that the voting issue in 1977 was down to the fact that Diane Rovell had Brian's power of attorney as regards Brian's vote in BRI matters.  And she sided with Mike and Alan in September of 1977.  Brian went along for the ride.  I do recall seeing the band in October of 1977, in Champaign, IL.  Mike mentioned on stage that they were just one state over, recording their "...next two albums."  I always wondered if this meant they were trying to sell WB a Christmas album and simultaneously make their first CBS album at MIU.  Because the CBS album was supposed to have come out in the Spring of 1978, not 1979.

I read the album situation as after Love You, they still owed Warners two albums for that existing contract to be met before getting started with CBS, and Adult Child had been shelved so the MIU plan was more to get the Warners album obligation met so they could move on and start recording something new for CBS. This might line up with Mike's "next two albums" comment, those two albums perhaps being what could complete their Warners contract. And when they did finally get working on the new CBS album with Brian even going to Florida to work on it, it was already behind schedule, and those sessions produced what prompted Walter Yetnikoff to make his infamous comment. Keep in mind that it might say something about the state of who could produce an album within the band at this time with the decision to get Bruce involved as producer, ostensibly to provide the album with "a hit"...one attempt at a hit turned out to be the disco remake of Here Comes The Night.  ;D

I've thought about this numerous times over the decades and never found the definitive answer. If anybody knows of any related interviews I would love to read them.

Did Brian actually lose interest in the Love You songs, or did he feel that he finished them and that they were fine the way he left them? Obviously "somebody" felt that the songs needed something a little extra. Was it just Carl or was it a consensus? When it was decided that Carl would add some things (mostly guitar parts), was Brian OK with it? I always thought that he was because Carl ultimately got a credit, instead of hiding his and others' contributions which later became commonplace.

I read somewhere that Brian told a sound engineer, around the time of Love You, that he felt that he lost his flame. That when he was young he had a flame, an ability to make music easily and he didnt have it anymore. I always thought that to be very telling about why he took a backseat on production on so many songs and let the others give it a try.

What if Brian felt he didnt know how to finish Love You? Kind of like what happened with Smile, he knew where he wanted to go, but lost his way and then retreated.

In any case, I dont feel anything is missing about that album. I love both his demos (the few I've heard) and the finished songs. Its the most sincere Brian musical output since Pet Sounds and I will always rank it second in my list :)

About this thread's topic, the whole MIU/LA era is a bit obscure to me. The only thing I can add is that Brian sounds really relaxed in the MIU songs, almost like he was enjoying himself singing them. Take Matchpoint of our Love as an example, best Brian vocals in those years! Maybe he was just happy not having to think about musical direction, creativity intent, production, etc. He just went in as a singer and he nailed it.

Anyways, just my 2 cents.

The massive decline in his skills as a pop master is there on both albums, more so on MIU.  The story about the tour bus driver seeing Brian is tragic, as it was so obvious he was in need of medical help and didn't get it until years later.

I haven't heard this one, please do tell more. Although I guess I can guess the gist of it...

Anyone who's heard the Love You tracks in their original state will tell you that if Brian thought they were fine, his judgement was way off at that point. They were barely past the demo stage. Carl did everyone a service.

I have heard the tracks in their original state, and I know that Carl did everyone a service, but it doesn't answer the question WHY Brian left them in that original state. Did he LIKE them that way, or did he quit on them? Yes, I think Carl improved them, but in a rawer, simpler way, the earlier tracks weren't THAT bad.

And, was it a band and/or a record company decision to do the additional work - or just Carl's idea?   

I think abuse of amphetamines can cause paranoia.

I personally prefer Carl's vocal on the demo version of The Night Was So Young. On the released version, was it at the wrong speed, or was he strung out on horse during the session?

I heard "Night Was So Young" was about someone.  Who was it about?

Debbie Keil.

That's what I thought.

I'm guessing... the latter.

Kind of figured...not a popular opinion, but I was not a fan of his vocals from 15 BO onwards, with a few exceptions (BB85 immediately springs to mind)

Personally, I think Carl sounds fine again from the L.A. album on. Different to his younger self, but not as stewed sounding like on 15BO/LY/MIU. Brian sounds better than Carl does on MIU, probably because Landy didn't let him snort cocaine for a while.

Good Timin' aside (and that was from 1974 anyway), I couldn't stand his vocals on LA Light, but part of it was because the songs were quite frankly boring as hell.

I once literally fell asleep while listening to Full Sail.  ;D

I agree that Brian is the star of miu. His singing is great and my Diane is the best thing on the lp. If only the other songs he had to sing didn't have such banal lyrics.

What about 'Baby Blue'?

Agreed, very nice vocals on Baby Blue. Also, whether you like the arrangement or not, Carl's vocals are great on Here Comes The Night. Yes, by L.A., Carl had cleaned up and was vocally back to form.

In my opinion, that string of albums - L.A. Light Album, KTSA, BB1985, Still Cruisin', Summer In Paradise - is Carl's best vocal work...ever. He was the star of those albums; it's too bad he didn't have better material to work with. I think Carl grew as a singer and I liked his more mature voice.

Carl's voice matured in 1978... late that year and early the next he got very focused on improving his vocals, range, etc.  His vocals, in my view, from LA LIGHT on, are stellar, the best he was ever singing.

I also don't understand the constant bashing of LA LIGHT... it was an excellent CBS debut at the time, and the last of the Beach Boys albums to feature contributions from all.  There's some brilliant stuff on there; everyone, with the exception of Brian, is bringing their best game - and it fit very well with the time... alongside two other excellent albums from other 60s icons... BACK TO THE EGG from WINGS, and McGUINN, CLARK & HILLMAN (Byrds).

The primary problem with the album is a weak side two, which, I suspect, had more to do with internal politics and the lack of finished material, more than anything else.

Ditto MIU, which, while suffering from some weaker than average songs, is a strong, lush production, and a real gift, sonically, to those of us reeling from the wonderful songs but weak production of 15 BIG ONES and LOVE YOU.

Couldn't it just be that Brian agreed with who he agreed and disagreed with who he disagreed? We always try to second guess Brian's motive and feelings.

Crap...I forgot about that! Yeah. obviously throw it in. And yeah, his vocals are the best part of the disco HCTN, but...can't even listen to it, really.

What kills the album for me is that it is so boring . Not only do I prefer MIU, I actually prefer KTSA (except Oh Darlin-which to me the version with Brian on lead is better- and Endless Harmony). Goin South is in my bottom five songs they've ever done.

Wow.  I love that song (except the line "Frisco Bay".  It's "San Francisco", buddy).

Tell that to Otis.

I know I can probably research and find some answers to this, but I'm curious since this discussion went beyond 1977 and into the CBS era.

After Keepin The Summer Alive in 1980, especially the years 1981-83 up to Dennis passing, the Beach Boys had no new studio albums. Obviously Carl did his solo record, but beyond that I'm curious of the reasons why there was such an obvious drop-off in the recording area. From 15BO onward to KTSA, the band had at least been consistent with releasing something every year...success of those releases notwithstanding.

How was CBS reacting to their band which they had given a pretty lucrative album deal simply not recording or releasing anything for several years? And again, was there a specific reason or was it a whole mess of reasons?

Beach Boys 85 is just a disappointment.  Not much of anything on there to get excited about.

CBS was probably too busy going after Boston for their even longer no-album gap. :lol

I'm pretty sure they were both talking about that bay in Texas.

<<After Keepin The Summer Alive in 1980, especially the years 1981-83 up to Dennis passing, the Beach Boys had no new studio albums. Obviously Carl did his solo record, but beyond that I'm curious of the reasons why there was such an obvious drop-off in the recording area. From 15BO onward to KTSA, the band had at least been consistent with releasing something every year...success of those releases notwithstanding.

How was CBS reacting to their band which they had given a pretty lucrative album deal simply not recording or releasing anything for several years? And again, was there a specific reason or was it a whole mess of reasons?>>

I remember hearing through those in the know that CBS was pretty anxious for new material by 1982.  At May/June live shows Al was pushing Runaway as the next single; their live cover was submitted to CBS, as everyone knows, but turned down as CBS wanted original material.  At one show I attended he also mentioned the Beach Boys as having cut a new version of California Dreaming (no doubt the version on Mikes Rock & Roll collection the following year).

The most interesting thing I heard in 1982... from insiders... was a plan to produce a new Beach Boys album with all guest producers.  One of those mentioned was Lindsay Buckingham.  By '83, that idea had been tabled, allegedly because Buckingham wanted to produce the entire album.

I think it was because Brian wasn't in condition to take part and the record company wanted him to be involved in any bb album they'd release

Yup...he was talking to Earl Mankey.

Too bad he didn't.

Agree that BB 85 contains some of Carl's very finest vocal work.

His vocals on Adult/Child - and some of Love You - are his absolute nadir however; I can barely listen to Everybody Wants To Live, he's slurry and sounds like he's off his face and not in an entertainingly amusing way, he just sounds awful. Listen to his vocal in the third verse - the guy is piddled, or worse.

And yet... even strung out in No-Man's Land, Carl still sounds better than almost anyone else.

True, dat. The names Val Garay and Barry Gibb were also mentioned.

True, but I find it difficult to imagine a sober man singing those lyrics.

Don't know, but it's one of my favorite unreleased songs!

This X 1,000,000,000

With regards to the situation in 1977 I find this particular interview quite telling (the 2nd part after Surfin' USA in particular):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSLclEJ0IAQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSLclEJ0IAQ)

Obviously he lacked self-confidence and also he found it difficult to come up with subject matter/conceptual frameworks for new material.

For the Love You and Adult Child projects he had written about the stuff he went through at the time and hardly anyone cared. So why bother?

If you match up the timelines, it looks like Brian gave up on Love You as soon as Landy was moved out of the picture. Sessions for Love You stopped in mid-November '76. According to the LA Times obit for Landy, he was fired in early December '76. So probably the second people started to tell Brian that Landy's time was up, Brian stopped working on the album.

It could be that Brian needed someone like Murry to spur him on, to keep his confidence up - a la Landy. It could also be that he was stung for a bit by Landy's opportunism. Or it could all be a coincidence, and Brian gave on up on Love You for different reasons. Regardless, Carl came in, polished Love You up, and perhaps Brian thought, "Hey, this stuff wasn't half-bad." Brian hits the studio to record his big band tracks, only to have members of the group give him a supreme WTF! reaction. And that about did Brian in, along with the label rejecting "Roller Skating Child" and the Love You album from a promotional standpoint. He finally handed in his ticket to the Mike Love Show, and the rest is history.

I gotta say first off that "Roller Skating Child" should've been the single. I know that "Honkin' Down the Highway" wasn't a horrible choice either and that tanked, but I just feel that "Roller Skating Child" was such a rockin' little record that I'd want my jockey to play, with a Mike Love lead, and pretty great vocals all around (well maybe not Brian's).


I don't know about that Ian. Recordings and sessions listed from this era say otherwise. At the very least they already had some newly recorded Brian stuff in the can, such as "Stevie" (produced by Dennis) and "Sweetie". Also, I know "I'm a Man" (an original tune, not Steve Winwood's or Bo Diddley's) was talked about. I also see there were some "Brian Wilson" sessions around these times, but as he did not seem to want to go solo at this point I'm assuming these were really just Beach Boys sessions.

Quite possibly the most annoying lyrics in the entire BB's cataloge: 'The cigarette butt when you throw it in the water goes fsssshhh/But the trick is you shouldn't laugh/Coz if you start laughing you're just a coward...'

Huh?

You ever throw a cig butt in the toilet?  it goes ssssst....   but the trick of the trick... 
what's so hard to understand about that? 

I tried.  He said something about a short walk off a dock or something like that. Maybe that's how Brian Wilson came up with that line about another bucket of sand, another walk on the pier.

Right. When we first moved to SE Texas from Northern California in 2003, somebody in my office made a comment about Frisco and I got all hot and bothered until I figured out he was talking about a town in Texas. Closest water is Lewisville Lake, though. At least he wasn't a Dodgers fan.

There was actually quite a lot of recording in the '80-'81 era -- that's where "Be My Baby" comes from, "Why Don't They Let Us Fall In Love" -- but the tracks just weren't that great.  "Let Us Fall In Love" is kind of what a lot of it sounded like, and that's one of the  better ones, I believe.

Double huh?

Yeah I get that a cigarette butt would be extinguished when thrown in water, but a) so what? What kind of a lyric is that?, b) Why on earth would a cigarette butt being extinguished be a cause of amusement?, and c) If, for some strange reason, I were to laugh at such a thing, why would it make me a coward to do so?

Am I missing something?

My guess is that it was a combination of being to concerned with the mental and physical state of Brian and Dennis, as well as the lack of participation from Carl during the majority of 1981 and 1982. Don't forget, the band as a concert attraction during that period was decidedly sub-par and chaotic(to put it kindly). I really can't see that formation of the group(With Adrian Baker in place of Carl) being all that productive in the studio. That being said, I would love to someday being able to hear the unreleased Sweetie from I believe 1981.

They probably should have released Stevie as a one-off single.

Or wait, they could've finished Goin' to the Beach, right? :-D

Am I the only person here who actually likes Goin' To The Beach?  :lol

Goin' To The Beach kicks ass. Plus that cigarette-part in Everybody Wants To Live is awesome. One of the best late-BB lyrics. If you don't get it, you just don't. It can't be explained.

Always thought it was about mortality and one's reaction to the fact of death.  A wonderful lyric.

All of that song`s lyrics sound like placeholders.

The Everybody Wants... lyrics are atrocious. There's nothing to 'get'. If there is, someone, please: explain.

Stevie, on the other hand, is one of the top 3 or 4 best BB songs of the '80's :) Wish it'd been on MIC. (Did Brian object to it's inclusion I wonder, perhaps because of painful memories of when it was recorded, of Dennis, or problems with the subject matter?)

I like "Goin' To The Beach". The album could've used another summer-y song. I put it right after "Keepin' The Summer Alive" and before "Oh Darlin". Keepin' The Summer Alive only has ten songs; it would've benefited from another one or two or three. Six songwriters in the group... ???

Yeah and every one of them massively off form. And was Dennis even really in the group at this point? Had he offered up a gem from Bambu would it have been accepted?

It was the Free Livers (Dennis & Carl) vs. The Conservatives (Mike & Al). I think in the end Brian respects Mike's decision making the most. Gaines mentions this in his book.

Well there ya go!  IF Gaines said it, it has to be true...

Re: the Everybody Wants to Live lyrics, I think for a while he wrote about pretty much anything that came to his mind, unfiltered. That's what many fans love about Love You, among other things. He certainly stopped that approach when Adult Child got rejected. Brianisms in lyrical form either weren't even written anymore to begin with or didn't see release, safe for some very few exceptions.

A song doesn't have to be explained, it speaks for itself. Stevie has good lyrics, but in my opinion is a pretty dull composition.

I only care about the music...lyrics are usually not important to me :/

I guess my post above was invisible or something.  The first two verses are downer existential stuff, whereas the chorus tries to provide a positive answer.  The cigarette is, or may be seen as, symbolic.  It has reached the end of its useful life and is snuffed out.  But the concept of death is not often faced.  It's routinely ignored, pushed aside with humour, comedy being the flipside of tragedy, so the sad narrator is saying that if you laugh and fail to face the idea of death, you're just a coward.

Is that making too much of it?  Perhaps.  I dunno.  That's just how the song seemed to me when I first heard it and have done so ever since.  Brian had written existential stuff before, using metaphor (I'm a rock in a landslide, leaf on a windy day), so it's kind of in tune with that.

Nice fire wind, never though of the song's lyrics like that before. They totally make sense in that context.

Snappy opening sentence sentence aside, a decent take on the lyrics, thanks. They just really jar with me, I can't get passed them (or carl's awful delivery), which is odd coz usually poor and/or unusual lyrics don't bother me in the slightest. I think it's the self-help speak feel to them that i find off-putting...

As with most great lyrics, there's stuff to "get" and stuff to just feel. Separated from the music, the lyrics come across as just plain odd. But when you combine them with the hesitant mood of the verses and jubilant rapture that is the chorus (well, maybe "jubilant rapture" is pushing it a bit) it all makes perfect sense.

It's just like Fire Wind said. Stuff happens and death lurks. But everybody wants to live.

What's great about Brian's best lyrics is that you don't have to spend years scrutinizing riddles (unlike sometimes with Dylan and the likes). Brian says what he wants to say direct, but underneath the simple surface there's so much wisdom hidden, except it's not really hidden. His lyrics are a bit like... trees. One look, and you're like "well, it's a tree". But when you look more closely, you realize it's an amazing thing that generates the air we breathe. And breathing is a-okay with me, always dug it!

I thought I was the only one bored by the L.A. song material. I like "Angel Come Home", though, and "Full Sail" actually grew a little bit on me. Still, it's an album I would never listen to if it wasn't a Beach Boys album.



I didn't know that version existed, I just checked it out on YouTube. When was that vocal recorded?

A little bit before, and IIRC, it was during the brief bit of time when Brian was working hard at the very start of the sessions. Most likely, on 22 Jan 1980.

I think L.A. is a great album to fall asleep to. :-D

Good Timin' is about as good as anything they did and while few of the other songs really stand out the album as a whole is a wonderful listen. I like it way better than TWGMTR.

It has a great, chill, glitz factor about it.

Good Timin, Full Sail, Angel Come Home, Baby Blue are all lovely songs. I even like HCTN!

"I just feel that "Roller Skating Child" was such a rockin' little record that I'd want my jockey to play, with a Mike Love lead, and pretty great vocals all around (well maybe not Brian's)."

Child would have been a great single except that it needs some additional overdubs.  The lack of a bass line (other than moog) really hurts it sonically.  There's a live version from the 1979 Nassau FM broadcast with a great bass line that really kicks it.  A little disco bass and it could have been a big hit.

I also like Goin to the Beach.

I know people think "Roller Skating Child" would be better if it was done like the live version, but that bass is exactly like the bass part you hear on all the up-tempo songs on MIU. Basically, like "She's Got Rhythm". It's an OK sound, but pretty damn generic. Gimme dat Love You outer space sound, pleas.

I'm with you there, Mr.Cohen.

Oh yeah, great album. HCTN is shite, but I either love or at least really like the rest - yep, even Goin' South. Post-Love You, I rate LA Light Album way above all other albums, with BB 85 in second place and TWGMTR a distant third.

"I know people think "Roller Skating Child" would be better if it was done like the live version, but that bass is exactly like the bass part you hear on all the up-tempo songs on MIU. Basically, like "She's Got Rhythm". It's an OK sound, but pretty damn generic. Gimme dat Love You outer space sound, please"

That Love You outer space sound didn't work on radio in 1977.  And radio, in those days, ruled.  As good as Carl's mix of Love You was, none of those songs had a chance in hell on the radio, even had they benefited from WB promotion.

I had heard that a live version of Roller Skating Child was considered as a follow-up disco single in the spring/summer of '79.

You know what else didn't stand a chance in hell in the late '70s on the radio? Everything else the Beach Boys tried. Their big hit, "R&R Music", had tons of Love You overtones.  "HTCN" was a mega-flop. MIU was considered a joke. Brian, at least, brought an edge with Love You and an indentifiable sound.

They could've promoted "Roller Skating Child" with footage of Mike doing his late '70s "marching foot stomp" dance alone in a room, with a picture of Mike in a turban on the cover of the single. In liner notes, the steps to the "Mike Love Stomp" dance would've been outlined.

Also, on this same topic, I wonder what Brian would've picked as the singles from MIU and KTSA. "Wontcha Come Out Tonight?" and "Some of Your Love" always struck me as Brian's big attempts at hit singles - well, those two and "Goin' On". "Wontcha Come Out Tonight" sports one of Brian's last classic "tags". "Some of Your Love" has a ballad interlude (Carl's "kiss me, baby" part), a nicce touch Brian would rarely bother with by that point in his career, and there's that awesome transition back into the chorus for the finale. I always felt like when Brian complained later on that he couldn't always write a hit when the group needed it, he was referencing songs like that. He really tried...

<You know what else didn't stand a chance in hell in the late '70s on the radio? Everything else the Beach Boys tried. Their big hit, "R&R Music", had tons of Love You overtones.  "HTCN" was a mega-flop. MIU was considered a joke. Brian, at least, brought an edge with Love You and an indentifiable sound.>

R&RM got airplay because in sounded like Surfin' USA on the radio.  Period.  Yeah, there's synth on it... and the voices are rough... but those are the only connections to Love You.

it sounded like the Beach Boys of old.  It was a hit record (the single version). 

I was in radio at the time and nobody wanted to touch Love You.  During that time period, Peggy Sue made it in the top 60 (in my view, Matchpoint of Our Love would have done even better), Almost Summer made it into the top 30, Good Timin' hit 40, and despite all the naysayers, HCTN hit 44.  In Carbondale, Illinois (where I was), St. Louis, Chicago, all around the Midwest, all of those songs did even better in select markets.  And none of them sounded remotely like Love You.  They did, however, sound like The Beach Boys.

I've always been a fan of the artistic merit of Love You... I purchased it the day it was released and, as they say, loved it.  But it's unfinished, barely past the demo stage (imagine what a classic track Airplane would have been with some real production).  It is the product of a man in a hurry, trying to finish as quickly as he can with as little outside help as possible.  In spite of all that, and because of who wrote and produced it, it's still a classic Beach Boys album.  But they couldn't have possibly released a less commercial album in the Spring of 1977 than Love You.  And they knew it.  And Warner Brothers knew it.  And so did the rest of us.

If you ask me, "Airplane" has a much elaborate arrangement than "Almost Summer". Besides the horn parts, that song is instrumentally about as simple as humanly possible. Just keyboards and basses playing standard eighth and quarter notes. It's carried by a great melody and a few bits of harmony.

You're right, Steve. As far as radio, the audience always seemed to want The Beach Boys to sound like, well, The Beach Boys. You can add "Come Go With Me" and "The Beach Boys Medley" which were also hits during that time period. We know it was frustrating for the group to release some tremendous songs/records that flopped, only to have weaker material become hits. But, it also explains why they kept going "back to the well" over and over. You (and I don't mean you, Steve) might not agree with that, but at least you have to understand or empathize with it/them.

I think Mike made a fatal error in the late '70s thinking people wanted the BBs to still do "Be True To Your School"/"Pom Pom Play Girl"  high school level material. The lyrics to songs like "Some of Your Love" and "Almost Summer" are literally toxic. People wanted the BBs to rock, and they wanted them to do songs about dancing and love. What they didn't want, however, was men in their 30s singing about high school experiences.

"I think Mike made a fatal error in the late '70s thinking people wanted the BBs to still do "Be True To Your School"/"Pom Pom Play Girl"  high school level material. The lyrics to songs like "Some of Your Love" and "Almost Summer" are literally toxic. People wanted the BBs to rock, and they wanted them to do songs about dancing and love. What they didn't want, however, was men in their 30s singing about high school experiences."

I beg to differ.  Having been in the audiences, they didn't give a damn about that stuff.  Otherwise, Marcella would have been a hit.  Nobody cared.   For more mature rock with Harmony - a logical extension of the early 70s sound, they had the Eagles.  Audiences at that time wanted Endless Summer Part 2.  They wanted it in the live shows - and wanted it on record.  Nostalgia.  That's why Rock & Roll Music and Almost Summer were hits.  At shows in 1976, 1977, 1978 there was a palpable drop in energy whenever the Beach Boys played anything new or different.  At one show I was at (November 1977), the college audience was ENRAGED when the Beach Boys began playing Country Pie, which was a decent rocker.  Ditto Roller Skating Child.  One audience next to me started bitching... "Why do they have to play that new sh*t?"  They wanted the oldies or new songs that sounded like oldies and spoke to High School life, partying, cars, girls and beach.
 


 

It's pretty amazing that they didn't release "Some Of Your Love" as a single. Not because it's amazing or anything, just that it seems like a song they'd at least try as a single.

I kinda sorta agree with that line of thinking. It sounds like they really tried to make this song a "single" sounding type of song... but failed. I wonder if even they knew that themselves, or was this ever in consideration as a single? Odd to not put this out, and to release "Living with a Heartache" (?!) as a single.  

I want to like "Some Of Your Love", and I almost half do because I'm a BB freak, but to my ears it's probably the single most recycled-sounding song in all of the BB released catalog. Surfers may recycle now (at least in another 12 years, but how about the BB songsmiths themselves recycle now in 1980?) It's like, here's the riff from "Child of Winter"... well actually it's also the riff from the tag of "Wontcha Come Out Tonight?"... but we hope you don't notice, and casual listeners notice wouldn't that because those source material songs weren't hit songs. But wait... here's the part from "Be True to Your School"... and now here's the lyric (and title no less) from "Kiss Me Baby".  C'mon guys. C'mon.

The BB song referencing/recycling machine was in full swing already, and while I can take it in very small doses (Carl's "You Still Believe in Me" vocal at the end of Brian's Back is shockingly/jaw-droppingly excellent, and I don't mind Bruce's "God Only Knows" coda in "Oh Darlin"), but "Some of Your Love" goes to a level of recycling not seen in any given single BB-related track (with the exceptions of "Beach Boys Medley", obviously, and "Smart Girls"). Yowzers. Not cool.

I had a brief conversation with Mike Love in 1980 about Some of Your Love.  August 10, 1980, Louisville, KY.  I'd gone to cover the show for the radio station I was working for; we were giving airplay to Peter Noone's new wave band The Tremblers and their excellent debut LP.  The Tremblers were opening for the Beach Boys; backstage well before the show we interviewed Peter, who was one of the nicest guys I'd met in the band.  He was excited that one of us had brought an original pressing of Pet Sounds (not me) and insisted on taking us upstairs and personally introducing us to Carl and Bruce, in the restaurant of the hotel.  The show was great; Dennis was there... they even pulled out Santa Ana Winds, one of my favorite tracks from KTSA.

After the show I ran into Mike in the hotel bar.  He was nursing a beer (!) and looking rather morose.  I introduced myself, complimented him on the show and the album.  I knew Goin' On and and Living With A Heartache had stiffed.  I don't know whether I was trying to cheer him up or scrambling for something to say but I remarked that I thought "Some of Your Love" would make a great single off the album.  He looked at me for a moment, said, "Thanks."  He paused for a moment, took a sip, then said, "the label thinks School Days should be the next single."

End of conversation.  What I didn't do was ask why the title song never went out as a single.  That was one track everyone liked at the station.  But by then, summer was almost over.

It does have some recycled riffs - Brian's love of the "some-some-some of"/"come-come-come out"/"run-run-runnin" riff is up there with "Shortenin' Bread" - but it's also one of that last songs with really classic Beach Boys harmonies. You've got the vocal stack, the counterpoints, and everything. The length of the tag bothers me a lot, though. That was a bad change in Brian's songwriting in the '70s. He went from leaving us wanting more of his tags in the '60s to milking every tag for what it's worth. As indulgent as the tag to "Marcella" is for a BB fan, I wonder if it would've went over better on the radio if he'd gotten to the point and faded out quicker.

I know longer songs were the big thing in the '70s for serious rock groups, but Brian's genius is best displayed in the 2 minute to 2:30 song.

The chorus of Some of Your Love comes from a track recorded at MIU in 1977 called Mike Come Back to LA.  I've heard this on a you tube video (a promotional film called OUR TEAM) about the making of MIU.  The film shows Brian pounding out the riff on the piano... then features footage of the vocal recording session with the Beach Boys, Billy Hinsche, et. al.  The vocal parts are quite a bit more complex and interesting than the ones on Some of Your Love.  Worth checking out.

One of the most intriguing and fascinating piece of footage ever filmed of Brian....IMO....

Brian sounds like his younger self in that little bit I could hear of him on Mike Come back to LA.

He was getting more of his old voice back. And then he lost it in the following years and hasn't had the same voice since.

The juxtaposition between what it's like when Brian is in the studio vs. when he's not is interesting. Even at the stage in his career, he brought a real creative vibe to the studio. People are laughing and goofing around. Then you see the footage of Brian working on KTSA a few years later and that sense of reckless abandon in the studio is gone. He's just at work now.

That's true, but "The Night was So Young" is such a terrific song it could have been an all-time classic with a great Carl vocal. I first heard that song when the box set came out in 1993 and I thought it was Brian singing except for the "Why she has to hi-ii-ii-de" (and it's corresponding line in the third verse), which it the only time in the song to me when Carl sounded like Carl.

I think it's already an all-time classic and I love Carl's voice on it. It's rougher and more shaded than we're used to, but it fits the feel of the song so so well.

I think Carl was fine on Love You. IMO he really lost it in the '80s when started singing all those cheesy Mike Love concepts with exaggerated delivery. I want to throw up when he sings on "Still Cruisin'". You'd do anything for a buck at this point, wouldn't you?

That's how I feel, too. Carl's singing in a lower register and he sounds a little somber, but isn't that how you feel at 3:00 AM when you're at the kitchen sink drinking a glass of milk and thinking about your girlfriend? I think it's a great interpretation of the lyrics.

To me, his singing sounded like it was recorded at the wrong speed, or like he was half asleep.

Did you just call "The Night Was So Young" an all-time classic? It's overreaching, to say the least. Brian would've nailed it much better.

HCTN got tons of radio play where I lived.  It sounded great on the radio, fit right in.

Brian didn't nail it on the demo so he gave it to Carl to sing. Check out the acapella-only track; it's really good.

'The Night Was So Young' was, up to that point in 1977, the best new Brian Wilson song since 'Til I Die'. It would stay as the best Brian-written song until 'Melt Away'. Well, maybe 'Good Timin'', but that was written years before. In fact the Love You album is an all-time classic in the Beach Boys' discography, and with the exception of TWGMTR, their last great album. And TNWSY is the best song on it. In my opinion, of course. When I first heard this song, it blew my ears back. I figured the Beach Boys didn't do anything good after Holland. It was really something to be proven wrong...with such a magnificent tune at that.

Carl doesn't have to sing smooth, sweet and heavenly all the time to be beautiful. There's a nice wounded warmth in his voice on TNWSY.

+!, as they say on the Hoffman board

I love the song...I just don't care for Carl's vocals on there. :/

I like most of the songs on Love You, too. Other than "Good Time" though I care neither for the vocals, nor the arrangements and the overall sound. Someone should rerecord the whole thing. :)