2004 Dutch interview

[puni puni]

http://spectropop.com/archive/digest/d1613.htm (CTRL+F "Brian Wilson interview")

What is the source of this? I can't find any info about it other than it supposedly came from a Dutch journal, as said in the post.

The transcription may have been sourced from http://www.comiclist.com/smileshop/viewtopic.php?t=2253&sid=d00493bdc8e3de4f4dc29c91cf688353 (dead link)

Discussing whether or not BDW's supposed ramblings are true is a tired subject, what's more important is whether this material was actually published, where/when it was published, and whether it prompted a real response from Melinda like it says it did.

[Wirestone]

It's definitely real. Brian does an interview like that every few years, when he's especially stressed and / or depressed. Jean and Melinda know enough not to go after journalists in situations like this. They just deal with it and move on.

[Andrew G. Doe]

It's definitely real. Brian does an interview like that every few years, when he's especially stressed and / or depressed. Jean and Melinda know enough not to go after journalists in situations like this. They just deal with it and move on.

Frankly, it's an odd kind of management that would not only let someone like Brian do such an interview in a bad state of mind but also not ask to vet it before publication (or at least interrupt during it). Surely Jean and/or Melinda should know enough to reschedule ?

[Wirestone]

My impression reading it is that Jean was away for much of the interview. It would indeed have been strange had she been there watching.

But truly distressing, nonetheless. One if the tragedies of someone in BWs situation is that he understands his situation sometimes, in stark terms.

[The Heartical Don]

Ha -

I recognized the text immediately, there are a couple of small (parts of) phrases that I recall from 10 years ago; and moreover, 'always afraid', or 'afraid all of the time', were English translations of the Dutch title of the article itself. It appeared in the cultural supplement of our quality newspaper De Volkskrant (July 9, 2004), and the interviewer was Gijsbert Kamer, a respected music journalist (he addresses Brian with 'U', which is courteous Dutch for 'you'; in all other pop interviews 'je' and 'jij' are used to ask questions, the informal ways of addressing others).

For those interested, here is a link to the original piece: http://www.volkskrant.nl/vk/nl/2676/Cultuur/article/detail/723272/2004/07/09/Altijd-bang.dhtml

[Sheriff John Stone]

I agree with AGD. It might've been a good idea to vet or reschedule that interview. I found this response to be very interesting, though:

Brian: I can't make any decisions anymore. I also can't say no. I'm too weak, really I'm too weak. Everything has to be done for me.

[the captain]

I found this response to be very interesting, though:

Brian: I can't make any decisions anymore. I also can't say no. I'm too weak, really I'm too weak. Everything has to be done for me.

Sheriff, I can see what makes that quote seem interesting, especially as it plays into one of the predominant narratives about modern-day Brian: that he can't and doesn't do anything and his management or handlers do everything. But speaking as someone with depression issues running through his family, the quote doesn't surprise me or strike me as especially important. I don't claim any authority here whatsoever, as everyone is different and I don't know Brian outside of the public persona and music--I'm just sharing my experience.

I have family members who are regular, productive members of society, holding down professional careers and living seemingly normal lives, who have said very similar things here and there when the depression is flaring up (or weighting them down). The dramatic, dark feelings come out and those are the sentiments you hear. Then what? Then they get dressed, go to work, go out with friends, and do all the same things everyone else does. It's an honest statement describing the moment's feelings--I'm worthless, I'm useless--but it passes. It wouldn't surprise me at all if that's all we're seeing there: Brian at a bad moment. (Not some glimpse into the "reality" of his puppet status, for example.)

[The Heartical Don]

I found this response to be very interesting, though:

Brian: I can't make any decisions anymore. I also can't say no. I'm too weak, really I'm too weak. Everything has to be done for me.

Sheriff, I can see what makes that quote seem interesting, especially as it plays into one of the predominant narratives about modern-day Brian: that he can't and doesn't do anything and his management or handlers do everything. But speaking as someone with depression issues running through his family, the quote doesn't surprise me or strike me as especially important. I don't claim any authority here whatsoever, as everyone is different and I don't know Brian outside of the public persona and music--I'm just sharing my experience.

I have family members who are regular, productive members of society, holding down professional careers and living seemingly normal lives, who have said very similar things here and there when the depression is flaring up (or weighting them down). The dramatic, dark feelings come out and those are the sentiments you hear. Then what? Then they get dressed, go to work, go out with friends, and do all the same things everyone else does. It's an honest statement describing the moment's feelings--I'm worthless, I'm useless--but it passes. It wouldn't surprise me at all if that's all we're seeing there: Brian at a bad moment. (Not some glimpse into the "reality" of his puppet status, for example.)

One of the best posts I ever read here; a compliment is in order.

I know a couple of things about depression, and this is one of them. The brain is 'locked' in some fixed state, for the time being. It is thought that the messenger substance glutamate in the brain can, though it being present in too high states, create 'valleys', in which the patient is temporarily trapped; dark, ruminative states are the results, feelings of helplessness and guilt prevail, and self-accusation may occur. Verbal utterances are in line with this state.

But all of this is not representative of what normally constitutes personality and character of the subject in question, as you eloquently illustrate.

[ToneBender631]

I found this response to be very interesting, though:

Brian: I can't make any decisions anymore. I also can't say no. I'm too weak, really I'm too weak. Everything has to be done for me.

Sheriff, I can see what makes that quote seem interesting, especially as it plays into one of the predominant narratives about modern-day Brian: that he can't and doesn't do anything and his management or handlers do everything. But speaking as someone with depression issues running through his family, the quote doesn't surprise me or strike me as especially important. I don't claim any authority here whatsoever, as everyone is different and I don't know Brian outside of the public persona and music--I'm just sharing my experience.

I have family members who are regular, productive members of society, holding down professional careers and living seemingly normal lives, who have said very similar things here and there when the depression is flaring up (or weighting them down). The dramatic, dark feelings come out and those are the sentiments you hear. Then what? Then they get dressed, go to work, go out with friends, and do all the same things everyone else does. It's an honest statement describing the moment's feelings--I'm worthless, I'm useless--but it passes. It wouldn't surprise me at all if that's all we're seeing there: Brian at a bad moment. (Not some glimpse into the "reality" of his puppet status, for example.)

One of the best posts I ever read here; a compliment is in order.

I know a couple of things about depression, and this is one of them. The brain is 'locked' in some fixed state, for the time being. It is thought that the messenger substance glutamate in the brain can, though it being present in too high states, create 'valleys', in which the patient is temporarily trapped; dark, ruminative states are the results, feelings of helplessness and guilt prevail, and self-accusation may occur. Verbal utterances are in line with this state.

But all of this is not representative of what normally constitutes personality and character of the subject in question, as you eloquently illustrate.

It's also worth pointing out that this was right in the midst of the Smile stuff, which would've contributed significantly to the pressures that weighed on his minds on a daily basis at that time. I hope people don't use this interview from 10 years ago, done during one of the more stressful periods of his life, as indicative of his daily existence now. There are plenty of interviews post-Smile where Brian speaks about the weight of the world being lifted off of his shoulders after the album came out.   

[Sheriff John Stone]

I found this response to be very interesting, though:

Brian: I can't make any decisions anymore. I also can't say no. I'm too weak, really I'm too weak. Everything has to be done for me.

Sheriff, I can see what makes that quote seem interesting, especially as it plays into one of the predominant narratives about modern-day Brian: that he can't and doesn't do anything and his management or handlers do everything. But speaking as someone with depression issues running through his family, the quote doesn't surprise me or strike me as especially important. I don't claim any authority here whatsoever, as everyone is different and I don't know Brian outside of the public persona and music--I'm just sharing my experience.

I have family members who are regular, productive members of society, holding down professional careers and living seemingly normal lives, who have said very similar things here and there when the depression is flaring up (or weighting them down). The dramatic, dark feelings come out and those are the sentiments you hear. Then what? Then they get dressed, go to work, go out with friends, and do all the same things everyone else does. It's an honest statement describing the moment's feelings--I'm worthless, I'm useless--but it passes. It wouldn't surprise me at all if that's all we're seeing there: Brian at a bad moment. (Not some glimpse into the "reality" of his puppet status, for example.)

One of the best posts I ever read here; a compliment is in order.

I know a couple of things about depression, and this is one of them. The brain is 'locked' in some fixed state, for the time being. It is thought that the messenger substance glutamate in the brain can, though it being present in too high states, create 'valleys', in which the patient is temporarily trapped; dark, ruminative states are the results, feelings of helplessness and guilt prevail, and self-accusation may occur. Verbal utterances are in line with this state.

But all of this is not representative of what normally constitutes personality and character of the subject in question, as you eloquently illustrate.

And, I did start my above post with saying that the interview should've been vetted or re-scheduled.

I also have friends and family members with depression issues. Actually, I work with depressed individuals every day. And that might be a major reason why I struggle with Brian's "career". Each day I am fortunate to see people coming to the assistance of people with emotional disabilities including depression. Individuals who need assistance in the employment area might receive job coaches. Individuals who are seeking to be more independent with day-to-day living such as cooking, banking, computers skills, and other everyday chores receive habilitation support staff. Some individuals merely want to "venture out" into society, even if that simply means going to the park or a mall or just going for a drive; they might receive companion services.

These support persons provide wonderful services whose objective is simply to help. In some ways it's more a vocation than an occupation. They truly want to see the patient or client or person accomplish their goal(s). In some cases they want to see the person succeed so bad that they (the support person) might actually "do" the task for the person. No harm intended, just going a little more than the extra step. Their heart is in the right place.

I do think there is a major - A MAJOR - difference in the circumstances of the people The Captain and The Heartical Don and I are referring to (and I don't mean to speak for them and I mean no disrespect) and Brian Wilson. Yes, people who have depression share many of the same symptoms. But Brian Wilson is a very distinct and unique case. He is an artist, a composer, arranger, producer, and performer. It is one thing to help and support people in everyday situations, supporting them and occasionally actually "doing the work". It's another thing when others are "doing the work" for Brian Wilson. We are talking about an individual's art. The art can't help but be compromised to some extent. Repeat to some extent. That's my point.

This example might be apples and oranges but what the heck. An individual with a disability wants to paint a picture. It's one thing, and a perfectly fine thing to make suggestions and provide encouragement. But once you start imposing your ideas on the person and actually start picking up the brush and painting the picture for them, the picture becomes less theirs and more yours. Who really painted the picture? Whose name goes on the picture? I don't know...it's just a personal thing with me.

And, in the above interview, it appeared (again, to me) that Brian's art was being compromised by others. And, he didn't exactly sound too happy about it either. Yes, depression can absolutely bring out worthless, trapped, dark sentiments...and sometimes true, ACCURATE sentiments, too.

[the captain]

I don't mean to get into long posts and rebuttals, but I want to clarify my main point: what he said doesn't necessarily reflect what's real, just what he felt at the time. If that's the case, it doesn't matter what he makes it sound like, how helpless or helped he comes across, because it's what he's saying, not what he's doing. I realize I could be wrong just as easily as I could be right, and the vast majority of us here have no idea. So that's all I have to say on the matter here and now.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I don't mean to get into long posts and rebuttals, but I want to clarify my main point: what he said doesn't necessarily reflect what's real, just what he felt at the time. If that's the case, it doesn't matter what he makes it sound like, how helpless or helped he comes across, because it's what he's saying, not what he's doing. I realize I could be wrong just as easily as I could be right, and the vast majority of us here have no idea. So that's all I have to say on the matter here and now.

Fair enough. And I don't have the energy to debate it today either. Now, tomorrow?

[halblaineisgood]

.

[RioGrande]

[Sheriff, I can see what makes that quote seem interesting, especially as it plays into one of the predominant narratives about modern-day Brian: that he can't and doesn't do anything and his management or handlers do everything. But speaking as someone with depression issues running through his family, the quote doesn't surprise me or strike me as especially important. I don't claim any authority here whatsoever, as everyone is different and I don't know Brian outside of the public persona and music--I'm just sharing my experience.

I have family members who are regular, productive members of society, holding down professional careers and living seemingly normal lives, who have said very similar things here and there when the depression is flaring up (or weighting them down). The dramatic, dark feelings come out and those are the sentiments you hear. Then what? Then they get dressed, go to work, go out with friends, and do all the same things everyone else does. It's an honest statement describing the moment's feelings--I'm worthless, I'm useless--but it passes. It wouldn't surprise me at all if that's all we're seeing there: Brian at a bad moment. (Not some glimpse into the "reality" of his puppet status, for example.)

It's great when someone, like the Captain, says exactly what you think, only much better than you could have done. And a professional, like the Don, agrees.

[halblaineisgood]

.

[puni puni]

Ha -

I recognized the text immediately, there are a couple of small (parts of) phrases that I recall from 10 years ago; and moreover, 'always afraid', or 'afraid all of the time', were English translations of the Dutch title of the article itself. It appeared in the cultural supplement of our quality newspaper De Volkskrant (July 9, 2004), and the interviewer was Gijsbert Kamer, a respected music journalist (he addresses Brian with 'U', which is courteous Dutch for 'you'; in all other pop interviews 'je' and 'jij' are used to ask questions, the informal ways of addressing others).

For those interested, here is a link to the original piece: http://www.volkskrant.nl/vk/nl/2676/Cultuur/article/detail/723272/2004/07/09/Altijd-bang.dhtml

Great work! Thanks

[bgas]

[Sheriff, I can see what makes that quote seem interesting, especially as it plays into one of the predominant narratives about modern-day Brian: that he can't and doesn't do anything and his management or handlers do everything. But speaking as someone with depression issues running through his family, the quote doesn't surprise me or strike me as especially important. I don't claim any authority here whatsoever, as everyone is different and I don't know Brian outside of the public persona and music--I'm just sharing my experience.

I have family members who are regular, productive members of society, holding down professional careers and living seemingly normal lives, who have said very similar things here and there when the depression is flaring up (or weighting them down). The dramatic, dark feelings come out and those are the sentiments you hear. Then what? Then they get dressed, go to work, go out with friends, and do all the same things everyone else does. It's an honest statement describing the moment's feelings--I'm worthless, I'm useless--but it passes. It wouldn't surprise me at all if that's all we're seeing there: Brian at a bad moment. (Not some glimpse into the "reality" of his puppet status, for example.)

It's great when someone, like the Captain, says exactly what you think, only much better than you could have done. And a professional, like the Don, agrees.

And then when someone like Rio Grande says exactly what you think about that post that said exactly what you think, it's even better.

HAH!!  SSMSS at work , methinks !  (Smiley Smile Mutual Support System)

[Wirestone]

I think it's important to note that Brian's work has always been incredibly collaborative -- that his height of composing / arranging / producing / arranging every single note lasted for (at most) a couple of albums -- and that before and after that point he used other musicians and producers for suggestions, ideas, motivation, etc. (Just one example -- Chuck Britz would surely be credited as a co-producer if Brian were making his classic records today.)

As his illness worsened, I think it's possible that others contributed more, but I'm not sure that the way he approached his creative work changed in some fundamental way. It becomes a question of extent and practicality. If Brian only contributes 30 percent or 20 percent to a song, rather than 50 or 60 percent, does that make the song irrelevant? And if a session needs to be done, or a date needs to be played, and Brian isn't feeling great and others take up the slack, does that poison the well forever?

And ultimately, what's the alternative? If, SJS, you've seen how people with such illnesses benefit from coaching, then why shouldn't Brian benefit in that way? Should he simply not play music in public or release records? And what if he indeed wants to do so, regardless of his illness? Or does this turn into a story of others manipulating him for their own ends again?

[Sheriff John Stone]

As his illness worsened, I think it's possible that others contributed more, but I'm not sure that the way he approached his creative work changed in some fundamental way. It becomes a question of extent and practicality.

Yes, it becomes a question of extent.

If Brian only contributes 30 percent or 20 percent to a song, rather than 50 or 60 percent, does that make the song irrelevant?

Not totally irrelevant, but less relevant.

And if a session needs to be done, or a date needs to be played, and Brian isn't feeling great and others take up the slack, does that poison the well forever?

See the above responses. The less Brian contribution, the less I'm interested. I don't have the same emotional response to the others who may be performing "duties" for Brian.

And ultimately, what's the alternative?

Credit the album and the concerts as The Brian Wilson Band. It'll never happen for obvious reasons that don't need to be discussed. But, at least it would be honest and not deceptive.

If, SJS, you've seen how people with such illnesses benefit from coaching, then why shouldn't Brian benefit in that way?

Brian should benefit in that way. But, like I intimated in my above post, when the coaching turns into actually doing the work for the person - like writing the music, producing the track, picking the final tracklisting, sequencing the album, choosing the artists to duet with, etc. - as much as it is well-intentioned, it becomes more and more the vision of the collaborators and less and less the vision of Brian Wilson. And that's important to me. And, like I mentioned above, art is a unique and personal thing. It's one thing to help a person learn how to use a computer. It's another thing to write/arrange/produce/record music for them - and then have them call it their work.    

Should he simply not play music in public or release records?

Not simply, no. This might surprise you, but there is a lot of what Melinda does with Brian that I agree with. Influencing the music end of his "career" is not one of them. I think Brian should've released albums when HE HAD enough material to fill an album. Don't artists/musicians record albums because they have something they want to say and actually have enough songs to fill such album? Didn't the live albums and covers albums and numerous re-recordings send up a red flag? And, yes, it depends on the project as to whether I feel it should've been released. I didn't agree with Pet Sounds Live being released on CD, chiseling together GIOMH, quickly throwing out a Christmas album that incorporated old Beach Boys' Christmas songs/re-recordings, the Disney album, and you know how I feel about the re-recording of the SMiLE tracks. I think Melinda's philosophy of a constant flow of Brian Wilson releases did him a disservice. And, I think the albums reflect that.    

And what if he indeed wants to do so, regardless of his illness?

If he indeed wants to do those things, sure. But that's really the question, isn't it. In addition to being mentally ill, many times Brian is full of sh*t, has a problem telling the truth, and is known for playing games with people. So, YOU have to make up your mind as to what you believe, and I'll make up mine.

Or does this turn into a story of others manipulating him for their own ends again?

I won't go as far as saying he is manipulated. I do think ideas are formulated by OTHERS and presented to him. As I mentioned ad nauseum, I preferred it when the ideas originated with Brian, especially musical ideas. I think it's a combination of the people making the ideas/suggestions being very persuasive (I'll leave it at that) and Brian "just going along". At that's not to say that ALL of the ideas come from others. I've never said that. Now I'm going to repeat myself. The more ideas and suggestions that come from others, the less come from Brian, the less the project becomes Brian Wilson's. And I prefer more Brian Wilson than less.

Finally (I hear people clapping ), the recent Jeff Beck "episode" encapsules a lot of what I'm trying to say and how I feel....Jeff Beck was brought in to collaborate with Brian. Whose idea was that? First we see the photos of a smiling Brian and Jeff together in the studio. Surely they must be hitting it off, sharing ideas and making great music together. Then we see photos of Brian at the board. I'll bet he's producing those new Wilson/Beck tracks. Then we start to read things from Brian's "associates" about the Beach Boys' genius and the British Guitar God "huddled together" in the studio; the results should be mind-blowing.

A few weeks later Jeff Beck is quoted as saying that Brian barely acknowledged him, sat silently in the studio, barely offered a suggestion, didn't get much done, and on and on. But, what if Jeff Beck didn't come out and say those things and the songs got released (and maybe some will)? Fans would be saying, "Brian and Jeff collaborated great." "Those were Brian's ideas, I just know it." "In the studio Brian is a different person." Do you see how it works? How am I supposed to feel about any Wilson/Beck tracks that might come out, knowing what I/we know now? That's the whole issue in a nutshell right there. Hey, I get it. I know how things work with the photos and the optimistic pronouncements. It just that I've seen this "game" played over and over, going all the way back to 1976 with the Brian Is Back campaign. It gets tiring. Actually, I'm jaded. And cynical. Being a fan of Brian Wilson has worn me down.

This is all I have to say tonight. You'll be happy to know that I'm burning out on this subject and I don't have anything else to say tonight. Maybe tomorrow...

[Jonathan Blum]

It's also worth pointing out that this was right in the midst of the Smile stuff, which would've contributed significantly to the pressures that weighed on his minds on a daily basis at that time.

The transcript is dated from August -- Smile wasn't actually released until more than a month later, they may well still have been doing overdubs around that time.  They'd had the first concerts by then, but the main item on the interview agenda was GIOMH.

So yeah, not surprised Brian was disengaged around that time.  It's still painful to read him on a downswing, though...

Cheers,
Jon Blum

[Andrew G. Doe]

It's also worth pointing out that this was right in the midst of the Smile stuff, which would've contributed significantly to the pressures that weighed on his minds on a daily basis at that time.

The transcript is dated from August -- Smile wasn't actually released until more than a month later, they may well still have been doing overdubs around that time.  They'd had the first concerts by then, but the main item on the interview agenda was GIOMH.

So yeah, not surprised Brian was disengaged around that time.  It's still painful to read him on a downswing, though...

Cheers,
Jon Blum

The sessions wrapped in June and while Brian was in London the following month the final mix was sent over a hi res link for approval. Thus BWPS wasn't a factor in August. It was done and dusted.

[ToneBender631]

It's also worth pointing out that this was right in the midst of the Smile stuff, which would've contributed significantly to the pressures that weighed on his minds on a daily basis at that time.

The transcript is dated from August -- Smile wasn't actually released until more than a month later, they may well still have been doing overdubs around that time.  They'd had the first concerts by then, but the main item on the interview agenda was GIOMH.

So yeah, not surprised Brian was disengaged around that time.  It's still painful to read him on a downswing, though...

Cheers,
Jon Blum

The sessions wrapped in June and while Brian was in London the following month the final mix was sent over a hi res link for approval. Thus BWPS wasn't a factor in August. It was done and dusted.

Right, so the Smile album was about a month+ from being released. Do you think Brian might have felt any stress about the upcoming release of an album that had already been dubbed "the greatest album ever" for the prior 37 years without it actually being released? Is it possible that the anticipatory stress may have been weighing on him, while also being out promoting another album? 

[Andrew G. Doe]

No. Brian doesn't live in the past unless he's reminded of it.

[ToneBender631]

No. Brian doesn't live in the past unless he's reminded of it.

Well that's kind of a curious response. Wouldn't releasing an album that was in fact from his past be the very definition of "living in the past"?

From the interview:

"A newly recorded version of Smile is in the make. These days Brian has to do the vocals and he is "nervous as
....". Because now all the memories are coming back from the sixties. 'Sometime it takes me two hours to do one line.'"

----

Which part of that statement suggests that he wasn't stressed about the recording and eventual release of Smile?

[Jonathan Blum]

"A newly recorded version of Smile is in the make. These days Brian has to do the vocals and he is "nervous as
....". Because now all the memories are coming back from the sixties. 'Sometime it takes me two hours to do one line.'"

Certainly doesn't sound like it's the GIOMH sessions he's talking about there...

Cheers,
Jon Blum