The Smiley Smile Message Board

In his old old old (hee hee) book LLVS, Dom talks about a Heroes and Villains Part Two being a reality. As part of the discussion, he mentions the following:

The 45 master tapes for "Heroes & Villains Pt. 1," "Heroes & Villains Pt. 2," "I Get Around," "Fun, Fun, Fun," "Be True To Your School," "The Warmth of the Sun," "Don't Worry Baby"  (and probably five more of the early hits) are all missing from both The Beach Boys' and Capitol's tape library. Engineer Mark Linett did manage to find other sources for these tunes.

Along with this WIBN was also lost. We know that was pulled from the NYC Copy Tape of Pet Sounds. Does anyone (Bgas) know what sources were used for the others? Just wondering.

As a personal aside, I always thought it was stupid that back in 1986 Capitol used that really bad rough mix of WIBN for Made In USA and countless other comps done at that time. Guess Larry Walsh was lazy (he really disliked the Beach Boys and their music). But, if he could only find that rough mix, why didn't he pull the Sunshine Dream master from 1982 and use the single version off of that. Another generation down sure, but at least its the right mix.

Bob

A bunch of those tapes were actually found back in 2009.

http://www.newtimesslo.com/cover/3164/the-reel-deal/

The tapes that were discovered in 2009 were multitrack tapes. Not 45 single master tapes, I think.

You are correct.  A different story altogether about the multitracks.

From my understanding, Capitol had two methods of storing 45 masters: First, the 45 masters could be on their own reel/hub, in their own box.  You can imagine with as many 45's as Capitol released, how many boxes/reels that would be from a storage standpoint.  Second, Capitol would take the masters for all of the singles from all artists released during a specific time period (i.e. a month), and splice them end-to-end on a single large reel to conserve space.  This is known as a "phono reel."  The masters for a number of Beach Boys singles that couldn't be found on their own reel were eventually found on their respective phono reel.  That's how the unreleased alternate single mix of "Little Honda" on KEEP AN EYE ON SUMMER 1965 was found -- it was spliced into a phono reel, even though the 45 release was cancelled.

So I believe Domenic's statement was written well before all of the vault research was done by Alan Boyd and Mark Linett -- which included the research into Capitol's massive set of phono reels.

Lee

H & V pt 1 of course is still missing and we've had to be content with the less than stellar sound quality copy tape.  There is no evidence that there was a completed single mix of Pt. 2 although the mono mix attempts on UM and on TSS suggest one was attempted, but I think it most likely one was never completed because Brian immediately went on to do more recording (fade and verse remakes, Intro, etc.).

Does anyone know if the master tapes were used for the "U.S. Singles Collection" box set from 2008? I love that box set, aside from the fact that a few of the tracks are realllly loud.

Not in all cases, at least. Don't Worry Baby and California Girls are two examples where the 45 masters were not used. You can check them against the 1999 Greatest Hits Vols. 1 & 2 which do use the 45 masters.

Thanks. But they are the original 45 mixes right? Just a generation (or two) removed from the master?

Thanks Lee, I was wondering about that. Bruce Spizer has written extensively about the Beatles Capitol releases and even has notes about what was done to each tape and how it was stored etc. He mentions the phono reel setup. So I was wondering if that could have been the case with the boys. We need a book like his on the Beach Boys releases. It's interesting stuff.

No, both songs that I mention are LP mixes on the U.S. Singles collection, not the 45 mixes, hence not from the 45 masters.

Wow Dirk -- I hadn't noticed that until I just pulled out those CDs.  "Don't Worry Baby" and "California Girls" are examples where the true 45 masters (as opposed to the mono album masters) have longer fadeouts.  On the "DWB" 45 you can very faintly hear Brian start up with a high part after his last "Don't Worry Baby, oo oo oo oo" -- probably like he did on the alternate take on the MADE IN CALIFORNIA box set.  On the mono album master you can barely hear the "oo oo oo oo" at all.  On the "California Girls" 45 master the fade starts after Hal Blaine's "dum dum dum dum dum dum" quarter-note triplets, where the mono album mix is well into its fade by the time Hal hits the triplets.  Plus the 45 master has a brighter high-end on Hal's drum kit.

Lee

Also, listen to the saxes on the intro, much harder sounding. Throughout the 45 mix the drums are more out front, as are Bruce's vocals on the chorus. Brian falsetto sounds more out front too. Then we get to the fade. Brian smoothed all that out on the LP mix.

Also, if you listen to Andrew Sandoval's 1998 stereo mix on the first Endless Harmony you will notice how much his stereo mix follows the 45 mono mix with the horns, drums and vocals. Mark Linett's stereo mix sounds more like the LP mono mix.

Why would they use the mono LP versions? Reminds me of the Beatles CD single collection where they took the Please Please Me LP master and took Please Please Me, Love Me Do, Ask Me Why and PS I Love You from there rather than going to the original single masters. The difference is that when these tracks were copied for the LP master, they tacked on alot of echo and compression. So using the mono LP masters it is not ok when advertising the singles as from the original mixes. How many times did we have the mono Shut Down Vol. 2 version of Fun Fun Fun before they finally started pulling out the original mono single mix.

Either they didn't take the time to look for the singles or they didn't realize that there were differences. In the case of DWB & CG maybe Brian nixed including them, as Greatest Hits 1 & 2 are the only CD's to ever release them, or LP's for that matter.

Lee, check out the :34 mark of Don't Worry Baby on GH vol.2. Notice how much lower the background vocals are as compared to the LP mix (up like the stereo mix).

So are California Girls and Don't Worry Baby the only two songs on the U.S. Singles Collection that don't use the original 45 mixes? I'm trying to make sure I have all the proper single mixes in place, like others here I'm sure. Thanks in advance.

Ok, you guys made me go back to look at all of my CDs with California Girls on them (the original mono mix). Strangely enough, even though it uses some of the wrong 45 mixes (mono Shut Down Fun Fun Fun), the original Reader's Digest 2 CD set from the 1980's uses the 45 mix of California Girls. Cue's up at 2:47 running time and has the longer fade out.

BTW, the GH's 1-3 from 1999 are some really great sounding CDs. Was always weird that the wrong version of Fun Fun Fun got on there.

What are the differences with Shut Down? Is it just the fade or are there other differences?

Single version of Fun Fun Fun has the organ in the break pushed up louder than the regular mono version. Listen to GH 1 and then Sounds Of Summer. SOS has the 45 mix.

I just checked. The correct version of DWB 45 mix is also on the Summer Crush CD from Starbucks.

I was somehow unaware that so many songs had different mixes or edits for their 45 release versus their album release.

This is extremely aggravating news.

Is there a list of songs this applies to?

Does this list possibly include original CD sources for each?

OH MY GOD.

I know about Fun Fun Fun, but you mentioned Shut Down too in you post. I checked all the albums and CD's that I have and they all (mono's) sound pretty much the same to me.

I think Bob meant that the "Fun, Fun, Fun" on the Reader's Digest collection uses the SHUT DOWN VOL. II mono LP version instead of the 45 version.

Lee

Thanks Lee. The RD, Made In USA, and GH Volume 1 all use the mono fun fun fun from Shut Down Vol. 2. So do so many others. As I said earlier, I wish they would have been more careful assembling these comps.

I've been listening to a lot of these 45 mixes today, and the differences mainly range from slight to imperceptible. In most cases it's just minor variations of instrument/vocal levels or occasionally longer fades. Few of them seem majorly different from their LP counterparts as was the case with some of the early Stones mixes. The exceptions are likely ones you're already aware of: "Be True to Your School" (re-recorded entirely), "Little St. Nick" and the cool unused single mix of "Little Honda" from the Keep an Eye on Summer copyright comp.

This got me thinking about the latest round of Analogue Productions reissues, where it was discovered by listeners that some of the songs on those albums that were picked as singles were sourced from lesser generations because the original masters had been moved over to isolated reels or phono reels that were later discarded. I'm not sure of the exact songs (I seem to remember "Little Deuce Coupe being mentioned) but am I right in thinking that the procedure Capitol/ Brian used at the time was to remix the songs once they had been cut from the LP reel and transferred, thus the variations in overall sound between LP vs. singles pressings? It would cool to get to the bottom of all this.

This got me thinking about the latest round of Analogue Productions reissues, where it was discovered by listeners that some of the songs on those albums that were picked as singles were sourced from lesser generations because the original masters had been moved over to isolated reels or phono reels that were later discarded. I'm not sure of the exact songs (I seem to remember "Little Deuce Coupe being mentioned) but am I right in thinking that the procedure Capitol/ Brian used at the time was to remix the songs once they had been cut from the LP reel and transferred, thus the variations in overall sound between LP vs. singles pressings? It would cool to get to the bottom of all this.
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I just got one of the Analogue Productions LPs in the mail today.  It shows pictures of the back of the tape boxes for the mono mix of Surfer Girl and Surfin' Safari LPs.  Each box has some interesting markings on a few songs-

Surfer Girl (Replaced 5-4-67)
Surfin Safari (Back In 5-4-67)
Surfin' (Back In 5-4-67)


What the heck was going on in May of 1967?  Was Brian trying to cut up his old master tapes while setting the Smile tapes on fire at the same time?

I just got one of the Analogue Productions LPs in the mail today.  It shows pictures of the back of the tape boxes for the mono mix of Surfer Girl and Surfin' Safari LPs.  Each box has some interesting markings on a few songs-

Surfer Girl (Replaced 5-4-67)
Surfin Safari (Back In 5-4-67)
Surfin' (Back In 5-4-67)


What the heck was going on in May of 1967?  Was Brian trying to cut up his old master tapes while setting the Smile tapes on fire at the same time?


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Sounds like when the Capitol Star Line relreases were done. Just putting that out there. Can you put up scans of the tape box covers. I live for that stuff :).

Or maybe that was when he got the idea for Stacks-o-Tracks? Your Star Line idea seems more plausible though.

Sure!  Here's a photo of the insert from the Analogue Productions album.  Interesting stuff:

https://flic.kr/p/xyUsPR

Interesting that at the top of Surfer Girl there is a green sticker that says "Acetate - DO NOT BAKE."  Then at the bottom, there is a red sticker that says "BAKED 12-02-05."

That is totally nuts ... acetate tapes should never be baked; hopefully the 'baked' sticker is wrong. Baking an acetate tape will likely make any problems worse ... baking is only for backcoated tape anyway, which was not even introduced until 1969, and generally doesn't affect tape older than 1974.

Maybe someone baked it in 2005, then later on someone else discovered that you shouldn't bake acetate tapes? How Capitol let someone who doesn't know that handle and alter original Beach Boys masters is beyond me.

Baking solves the problem of 'sticky shed syndrome', which is the glue on the binder slowly turning to liquid ... it dries it out and 're-glues' it to the tape.

Acetate tapes often suffer from the opposite problem -- they're dry and brittle. If you bake them, you'll make it worse ... they can easily snap if not played on a machine with a gentle transport.

Acetate tape can also suffer from a less-known problem called 'vinegar syndrome' ... which is basically what it sounds like; a deterioration that produces a (sometimes pretty strong) vinegar odor. Though no one seems to know how to handle this ... or what exactly the implications are. The tape usually plays back okay in my experience.

If the 'Surfer Girl' master is on Scotch 111, it's likely just fine and would not have any problems (other than being brittle or maybe shedding a little). Sadly, I've heard stories of engineers and labels simply baking tapes as a matter of course before transferring for reissue projects.

I'm guessing it might be on Scotch 201, which the successor to 111 (the studio standard since the late '40s) and was introduced in 1962. This particular tape is not stable and sheds in a way that seems like it might be sticky shed, but it's definitely not because the tape is not backcoated, and is not polyester ... it's acetate. So that might explain why someone decided it was a good idea to bake it.  Might have dried up whatever was gunking things up though ... and probably damaged the tape in other ways as well. I don't think anyone knows how to handle problematic 201 though ... I would maybe just try 'cleaning' the tape with something like a dry cotton ball before it passes over the heads to get a clean transfer.

Looking at that photo though, the box doesn't even look correct for the period. It looks like a 1980s-'90s Ampex box. The label sheet is obviously original though. So they might have used a replacement box, or maybe the tape is actually a later copy ... which is highly likely to need baking if it's an '80s'-90s Ampex tape (not acetate). The "Surfin' Safari" box looks original.

One interesting thing is how this vintage, priceless collectible has all these modern stickers and bar codes on it ... like, it's a beautiful artefact of the past but still a commercially viable work tape. Imagine if someone found some handwritten Beach Boys lyrics and decided to put a bunch of stickers on it!

When I first saw "Acetate DO NOT BAKE" stickers on photos of BB tapes, my assumption, and this is purely an assumption on my part, was that when Capitol engineers identified a Mylar/Tenzar/polyester based tape that was of a formulation not known to have stiction issues, they placed a sticker on the tape to indicate that the tape should not be baked. Lacking a sticker that said "Tape formulation not known for stiction problems DO NOT BAKE", they simply used the sticker for acetate tapes, which, although incorrectly identifying the tape as acetate, correctly imparted the information "DO NOT BAKE".

What is an acetate tape?  Isn't an acetate a groove based record cut on cheap plastic or "lacquer"?

The question is why does it have a 'do not bake' sticker, and a 'baked' sticker?

You should really not bake any tape from the 1960s. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that most BB masters from the '60s are on Scotch 201, 202, 203, or 111.

202 and 203 are both poly, and baking will definitely damage the tape. They are not backcoated, so it will not do any good anyway. The problem with these tapes is that the oxide will flake right off the poly because it's dried... you're left with something resembling actual "scotch tape" ... i.e., transparent clear tape without a sound! you can take your fingernail and scrape the oxide off on any reel of 202 or 203 if you want to. Baking the tape will make this problem worse, drying it out even more ... because the tape is already dried out ... this is the opposite of sticky shed, where the tape is wet, and needs to be dried to re-glue the backcoating (remember, 202 and 203 don't even have backcoating).

111 is acetate ... the oxide does not flake off like 202/203, but the tape itself is brittle and can break easily. Baking will only make it more brittle and prone to breaking.

201 is the wild card I suppose, and definitely has problems that might make someone want to bake it. To me, it does seem to be a 'wet' problem ... that is, the tape seems to gunk up heads, etc. Not as bad as real sticky shed ... I would say these tapes are playable on the right transport. The problem is, 201 is acetate ... so if you bake it, you might be 'curing' a problem but creating a potentially worse other problem ... I doubt baking does any good anyway ... but I would absolutely NEVER bake any master on 201, certainly not an iconic BB recording!

Scotch 206 was one of the first backcoated tapes, introduced in 1969. This tape also does not need baking ... but it probably wouldn't damage the tape to do so (I wouldn't).

Acetate is a material. Prior to the introduction of plastic tape types, the actual tape itself was made from acetate material. This is not to be confused with what's called 'acetates' ... the demo records cut for artists to take home. Those were made from acetate too ... but totally a different scenario.

The track itself would presumably be the same though ... since it would be on one track of the 8-track. Only the vocals might vary, or the mastering/EQ.

IIRC, didn't Chuck Britz remix Surfer Girl in 1967? That could be when the remix was substituted on the master tape.

An acetate tape has a base material made of cellulose acetate. It is one of two common types of backing materials used for magnetic recording tape, the other being a type of polyester. The biggest disadvantage of acetate tapes was that they can easily break. Polyester tapes can stretch, but were typically considered more robust because of their increased strength. Magnetic oxide particles, along with a binder to make them stick to the base material, as well as a lubricant, were deposited on either the acetate or polyester base to make a magnetic recording tape.

As far as an acetate record is concerned, in the early days cellulose acetate was used as the material in which the cutter carved a groove, hence the practice of calling such a record an acetate. By the time the Beach Boys were making records cellulose acetate had been replaced by a lacquer material, but the term acetate persisted, although such records are also referred to as lacquers.