History of Mike's reputation

[Magic Transistor Radio]

I am only 32, and got really into the Beach Boys in 1998 when I saw Endless Harmony doc. Shortly there after I discovered the hostility that much of the media and fans have toward Mike. And I understand it, to a degree. Thankfully this message board is more fair to him. Other message boards are constantly F*** Mike Love, I hate Mike Love, etc.   

Anyway, my question is, how far back does this hostility toward Mike go. We're people thinking that way back in the 70s? 60s? Was there some event (HOF speach / article written / Celebration album    ) that really got this going? Or was it just a series of events? Or the fact that the Wilsons were the 'cool' Beach Boys and they disliked Mike?

Anyone have ideas of when and why?

[the captain]

Well I think some of the Pet Sounds / Smile sessions / post-Smile fall-apart era articles have pretty firmly laid groundwork that says "Brian Wilson: super genius," including plenty by the band's own publicist, Derek Taylor (although by others as well). Even if that isn't overtly anti-Mike, it certainly hints at it. And in the mid-70s, David Leaf wrote his book which pretty firmly divided the Beach Boys into camps: artists (Wilsons) and businessmen/hacks (others). And the truth is, the story gets so easy to tell, I think many people prefer believing it to being reasonable about the complexities of human nature and interaction.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I understand the point of your post, but I have to state some opinions first.

I think the overwhelming majority of fans like Mike Love. Since almost all of his recorded work has been excellent; I'm assuming most fans dig that. I know from seeing The Beach Boys in concert several times that the fans like and appreciate what Mike does live. For many fans, he was/is the highlight of the show. I see their reactions in the stands; I hear what they're saying on the way back to their cars.

Mike does several interviews a year. For the most part, they're pretty good, at least they've gotten better. I would think that the journalists appreciate that, too. Mike's the same way on TV; he appears friendly and accomodating.

So, who doesn't like Mike Love. Yeah, there's a small percentage of fans and journalists and musicians out there who can't stand him. Those are obviously Brian Wilson fans and their feelings are based on Mike's musical differences with Brian Wilson. If Brian is a genius and Mike doesn't see eye to eye with Brian, what does that make Mike? I personally don't think Mike's lawsuits have damaged his reputation that much; a little, but not much, basically because he won most of them.

To answer your question, Magic Transistor Radio, I think the hostility started with David Leaf's book. David pleaded his case quite effectively.

[Reggie Dunbar]

I believe Luther has it right as far as the chronology goes. The vilification of Mr. Love seems to be an organic entity, dying and being reborn. Brian's shift from fun 'n sun topics to "ego music" was the end of goofy, corny Mike, and the maturity of what he really is. A bitter, insecure and petty man who got hell of a ride out of his cousins and when that wasn't enough he imploded the group and called in the legal teams. Rieley and Leaf both threw him under the bus, or told the truth - it's subjective to your interpretation. I'd take their words before those of a phony spiritualist-slash-wifebeater control freak any day. And the ego.........

The Beach Boys would have succeeded without Mike.  And flourished.

Mike would be pumping gas and croaking for a top forty band if kismet hadn't blessed him.

Mike is a tool. Greedy, self obsessed - ad nauseum.

The Beach Boys wouldn't be the same without Mike.

Mike must never make another solo album again.

I like Mike, warts and all.

[oldsurferdude]

I believe Luther has it right as far as the chronology goes. The vilification of Mr. Love seems to be an organic entity, dying and being reborn. Brian's shift from fun 'n sun topics to "ego music" was the end of goofy, corny Mike, and the maturity of what he really is. A bitter, insecure and petty man who got hell of a ride out of his cousins and when that wasn't enough he imploded the group and called in the legal teams. Rieley and Leaf both threw him under the bus, or told the truth - it's subjective to your interpretation. I'd take their words before those of a phony spiritualist-slash-wifebeater control freak any day. And the ego.........

The Beach Boys would have succeeded without Mike.  And flourished.

Mike would be pumping gas and croaking for a top forty band if kismet hadn't blessed him.

Mike is a tool. Greedy, self obsessed - ad nauseum.

The Beach Boys wouldn't be the same without Mike.

Mike must never make another solo album again.

I like Mike, warts and all. 

[KokoMoses]

"A bitter, insecure and petty man who got hell of a ride out of his cousins and when that wasn't enough he imploded the group and called in the legal teams"

I'd say Carl and Dennis certainly benifitted much in the same way by being so blessed as to be born the younger siblings of Brian. And Al was certainly blessed to have gone to the same high shool, played football with (and broke the leg of) Brian. David was blessed to have lived across the street. Blah Blah!

Didn't Mike also write a bunch of pretty damn great and defining lyrics and also sing a mean bass vocal but could also sing lead and provide a unique counterpoint to Brian's soaring falsetto? I seem to recall something like that... Wasn't Mike also more of an outgoing person than Brian, Carl, or Al? A bit more of a forceful personality? Aren't those the things that usually make up a person who is willing to be a frontman for a band?

So, was Brian also lucky to have a cousin with some ambition other than punping gas and who was clever with all the above things? And wasn't he lucky to have a Chuck Berry obsessed little brother who played guitar and who also had an angelic voice? Wasn't he lucky to have a middle brother who was a surfer and who suggested writing a song about surfing, and who was also willing to take on learning the drums and playing them for Brian at the drop of a hat? (trust me, as a drummer, you can either play drums or you simply can't. It's not all that easy, or easy at all) Wasn't Brian also lucky to have Al as a friend? Another guy with ambition as a musician who posessed a great voice that fit in and melded with the Wilson's own voices perfectly? Oh, and Al also played guitar!!!!!

See? A single genius pounding away alone at a piano doesn't make a band!!!!

[the captain]

Didn't Mike also write a bunch of pretty damn great and defining lyrics ... also more of an outgoing person than Brian, Carl, or Al? ... And wasn't [Brian] lucky to have a Chuck Berry obsessed little brother ... Wasn't he lucky to have a middle brother ... who was also willing to take on learning the drums and playing them for Brian at the drop of a hat? ... Wasn't Brian also lucky to have Al ... guy with ambition as a musician who posessed a great voice that fit in and melded with the Wilson's own voices perfectly?

See? A single genius pounding away alone at a piano doesn't make a band!!!!

Yep. Being the most talented member of the group--which I think pretty much everyone would say Brian was--doesn't invalidate the other members' contributions, which were substantial in the case of this band. And of course, let's not forget David Marks' integral contributions early on. Or Blondie's and Ricky's contributions. Or Bruce's. Or the touring musicians'. Or the studio musicians'. I think Brian Wilson ranks among the best half dozen or so popular musicians of the past 100 years, but that doesn't mean there weren't plenty of people around him doing great things to his music, as well as making their own.

[Reggie Dunbar]

  Gee, Mike....er Erik. Touch a nerve ?.

  The exclamation point store called, they're running out.  Take a pill. Only a solitary opinion
  expressed. I suspect there are many others that won't come forth in fear of your wrath.
  Oh no, I'll be quoted in red text. I don't want that as my legacy on a
 forum based largely on speculation.


By the bye, you forgot to give the turbaned one his props for the sax playing.  

[Jason]

Ignorance and his f****t friend Subjectivity rear their ugly heads again. It's only a matter of time before Bullshit steps in and we have a real war on here.

[KokoMoses]

Sure Reggie, you touched something of a nerve! And for a bunch of knuckleheads whittling their time away on a Beach Boys message board, it shouldn't be completely unexpected. It's safe to assume we're all not a bunch of Cocktail soundtrack purchasing casual fans here.

And I know your dreaded red letter quote wasn't so much a quote from YOU but rather a compact paraphrasing of the general Leafian/Priore mode of thought! .... Solitary opinion expressed? Fair enough! But this begs the mention of what a message board is vs. a blog! A solitary opinion expressed in a message board is a solitary expression "walking into a bar" vs.  a solitary expression drinking alone in one's own bedroom, which would resemble a blog, if that makes any sense.... A snarling description of Mike as "A bitter, insecure and petty man who got hell of a ride out of his cousins and when that wasn't enough he imploded the group and called in the legal teams" posted on a message board will most certainly summon the turban-wearing, Kokomo karaoke-ing Mike love-ing few out from under their rocks!

Er.... not that the "imploding the goup/calling in the lagal teams" part isn't..... true!  

 

[grillo]

In High School during the eighties I swore that if I ever saw ML walking down the street I'd punch him, and I thought it would be a good deed for the world.
Now, if I saw or met Mike, I'd shake his hand and thank him for all the great songs.

[Custom Machine]

IMO, it was David Leaf's book, more than anything, the was the most significant force trashing Mike's reputation.  Not that Mike, or any other member of the group, for that matter, has a sterling record.  And, Mike himself certainly has earned the wrath of others with some of his actions.

Anybody remember Brian Battles?  He was the creative designer, and later the editor, for the Break Away With Brian Wilson newsletter back in the mid 90's to the early 2000's.  When my wife and I got together with him and his wife shortly after he began this assignment, it was quite apparent that, even though we were close in age, I was a long time fan and he was a relatively recent convert.  As such, Brian Battles had bought into the idea that Brain Wilson was a creative genus (with which I totally and completely agree) whose creative drive had been diminished only because his cousin, brothers, and the other band members had thwarted his desire and ability.  When I tried to explain to Brian (Battles) that the issue was really much more involved and complicated than that, he would have none of it.  I haven't had any contact with Brian Battles (who is a heck of a nice guy) in years, but it would be interesting to see if his opinion still stands, or if he has gained an understanding that no one is perfect and the Beach Boys, as an institution, are a very complicated entity.

And, all that being said, I think ericdavid5000's post accurately and logically reflects that fact that Mike's legacy has taken a definite turn upward in the past couple of years.  (And Reggie Dunbar, if you don't like that statement, calm down!  Break away, do the side step two step (or whaever it's called) and take a chill pill yourself!  Brian's legacy is intact and secure as one of the greatest composers of the 20th century, or any century, for that matter.)

[Reggie Dunbar]

Well folks, you're making me feel guilty for issuing a fairly common, or unoriginal statement.
It's too late to issue a retraction, and it would be disingenuous of me to go that way.
I reckon it goes to show that democracy will always bow to diplomacy. I'm not going to play
the martyr card and follow the flock, but I will bone up on the sensitivity regarding Mr. Love.

You know, it wasn't so long ago that a thread like this would become a field day to tee off on the much deserving Lovester, but evidently the tide has turned in his favor. Why, is the question. I recall chiming in sometime around a year ago when he was trashing Melinda and the consensus was "That's Mike".....By the way, my original post said a few nice things about him, and there's a lot of truth in there. If any of you are related to, or are Mike, I apologize for the manner of my opinion, but stand firm in my beliefs. Sorry.

[The Heartical Don]

It is not that bad that this question pops up every now and then. My problems with Mike have boiled down to the following points:

- suing a cousin who clearly, to some 7 billion inhabitants of this planet, was and is mentally challenged and has no real way to defend himself (except taking a passive and 'uninterested' stance);

- stepping in at pivotal points and harming/delaying/stopping projects that all humans minus one want to see becoming reality: SMiLE, Pet Sounds Sessions Box, and most probably a SMiLE 3CD box in 1997;

- if reports are correct: making tiny insults towards Brian, that he full well knew were neglible to 6.999.999.999 humans... except to Brian.

Oh, I forgot: being the worst comedian on the planet.

For the rest, he is a fine man, in whom I take much pleasure.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

Really though, I think you have to give Domenic Priore his 'credit' (for lack of a better word) here, also. LLVS! Is pretty much a Pro-Brian, Anti-Mike Love book. As well as the last SMiLE book he wrote a couple of years back. He takes every opportunity to bash the Lovester. When I was first getting into SMiLE, I read LLVS!, and by the time I finished it I hated Mike Love. HATED him. And I think it's because a lot of Domenic's opinions come across as facts. I would blame that book just as much as Leaf's book for contributing to the outpouring of hate towards Mike Love.

[gxios]

From the first time I saw the Boys in concert in 1971 as a 17 year old, my fellow BB fans and I all thought it would be best if Mike toned down the corny jokes.  A lot of them seemed forced ("...Yes- take a load off your feet by elevating your consciousness!!").  But it became clearer the more shows I attended that the live band needed a more forceful frontman- Carl was always very shy at the mic until later in the 1970's; Dennis relied on his looks- never said too much until the heavy alcohol years; Al never said anything; Bruce usually did the announcement type stuff ("Voter registration out front". "Anybody see the Moody Blues last night?".)  So it was always down to Mike.  As the crowds got bigger, Mike did seem to tone it down and become more of a host, and when I have seen them in recent years my cringe reaction has been idle.  I met Mike after a show once- 1972 at Ocean City, MD- he, Al, and Dennis came out to a parking lot area next to the beach and chatted to anyone who wanted to chat.  It was clear that both Dennis and Mike were checking out the female talent but they weren't real obvious or aggressive- Dennis left after a few minutes with friends.  Mike listened attentively to my 18 year old blathering about liking all the new stuff, being a big fan, etc, and never let on that it was tiresome- he seemed happy that we all came out to the show.  So while part of me says he's nothing more than Eddie Haskell all grown up, he's also a decent and friendly guy.  There are plenty of jerks in show business, and if you got rid of them there would be few decent bands.  Hell, Van Dyke Parks is quoted in a recent Ugly Things issue stating that Terry Melcher thought David Crosby was the worst person he ever met in the music business- Manson was second! Ouch!! Mike Love combined hard work and good luck to get where he is- just like most successful people.

[mikeyj]

I would blame that book just as much as Leaf's book for contributing to the outpouring of hate towards Mike Love.

Perhaps you are right, but surely that book sold nowhere near the amounts that the Leaf book sold?

[Smilin Ed H]

He doesn't come out of the Dennis story particularly well either.

[Sheriff John Stone]

He doesn't come out of the Dennis story particularly well either.

Ed, your point, which is true, encapsules my overall take on Mike.

I don't sympathize with Mike Love. He got on that proverbial woodie fifty years ago and rode it all the way to fame, wealth, and I assume overall happiness. As some have stated, there was some luck involved (we could fill up a hundred pages with rock & rollers in the same situation), but also a lot of pain along the way. And that is where I can empathize with Mike.

Mike's role in the SMiLE era is well documented, but I can empathize with him, or his position. I would've objected to the drugs, the hangers-on, and, yes, some of Van Dyke Parks' lyrics. I'm not saying Mike was right or wrong, I'm just sayin' that I probably would've felt the same way.

I can also see myself reacting much like Mike when Endless Summer/Spirit Of America hit, although I think the other guys felt more like Mike than many are willing to admit. That direction/decision to "go back" to the old-style Beach Boys is largely blamed on Mike Love, but I'd love to read the meeting minutes and see the votes.

And, the lawsuits, or, specifically, THE lawsuit....If I contributed some lyrics to a couple dozen Beach Boys' songs - and go no credit for it - yeah, I'd be pissed. And, if I could contact an attorney, spend a couple of minutes on a witness stand, and gain a couple of million dollars for it, yeah, I'd do that. If I/we are honest, that lawsuit had absolutely nothing to do with Brian Wilson personally. Did Mike get "sue crazy" after that? Yes. But that last SMiLE-related one was the only stupid one.

Now, the "Dennis story"....I know - ABSOLUTELY KNOW - that I would've reacted to Dennis the same way that Mike did. When Dennis asked Mike to help with a lyric or two, I would've been happy to contribute, just like Mike did. But, if Dennis showed up at a concert drunk, stoned, late, not prepared, or Dennis was saying inappropriate things to the audience, I would've been pissed - just like Mike. Yeah, it would've ended up in a physical altercation, I know myself.

That's why I just can't hammer Mike for some of his "problems" with some of his bandmates. I wouldn't know how to deal with them. But, if you look at Brian's and Dennis's track record, not many other guys (or girls) could either.

[Wirestone]

You cannot blame David Leaf or Dom Priore for Mike's actions.

They are well-documented and easy to assemble in a way that makes him look horrendous.

[Cam Mott]

I agree with anyone who thinks we aren't even close to understanding the group. What is good from a goose is evil from a gander, one collaborating lyricist is a coat-tail riding hack-leach while another, with much less accomplishment, is a co-equal co-creator. My belief is we put too much blame on the actions of some and we dismiss too much the blame of the actions of others but that has corrected a bunch over the past few years.

Not to be overly dramatic...shah....but I don't think anyone comes even close to understanding the love and respect due and within the group.  All heroes, no villians.

[Amy B.]

My views on Mike have become more nuanced. I can understand some of Mike's behavior, like his exasperation over the behavior of the Wilson brothers. I can even understand him feeling threatened when Brian took on other collaborators for entire albums. I can understand Mike's frustration over the Mike bad/Brian perfect thing. Mike's baseball cap/Hawaiian shirt/stuck-in-the-early-60s-a-la-that-resort-in-Dirty-Dancing thing is irritating, but not really his fault. It's just who he is, although it comes off looking phony, and you end up wondering what he's really like. Unfortunately I think it's adversely affected the Beach Boys' reputation, and that probably contributes to people's resentment of Mike.

Here's what I DON'T get: Mike's insistence on stating things like, "my cousin Brian is brilliant, but he's got a lot of people controlling him," or "My cousin Dennis was great, but he really had a lot of problems with drugs." Uh-uh, Mike. You have every right to feel that way, but don't air your dirty laundry in the press. Not sure if it's true that he used to say things on stage like, "My cousin Brian wrote this music, but now he's sitting at home while we do all the work." Sure it was true, but not very gracious to say, particularly when people are at a concert to be entertained, not exposed to your family problems. Also, his willingness to put out crappy music contributes to his reputation as the commerciality-over-art guy (and yes, you could say that about all the BBs to some extent). What also annoys me is his tendency to not step up to the plate at crucial junctions that might have helped his reputation. He lacks a certain graciousness. He could have commented on BWPS, if only to say it's amazing that Brian was able to put it out. Instead he just said he hadn't had time to listen. That makes him seem petty. He could have congratulated Brian on his solo touring, which any way you look at it is a huge triumph. (I mean, Brian was in really rough shape earlier in his life, and Mike knows this more than most.) He could have done this while at the same time promoting the idea of a BB reunion. But advocating only a BB reunion just makes him seem self-serving. And I understand him wanting credit for lyrics, but his contributions to some of those songs was so minuscule that again, he seems petty. People help each other with a few lyrics here and there all the time, and you don't see lawsuits popping up over these things. Adding a few lyrics is more like editing than co-writing, anyway.

So all in all, I don't think Mike deserves a sterling reputation, although he's not the devil some make him out to be either. The weird thing is that the pendulum seems to be swinging to the opposite of what it was in some circles, meaning Brian-phony good/Mike-really good.

[tpesky]

I think Mike himself has done alot to help his legacy the past few yeas as well. I think he has mellowed and is more in touch with his place/their place in in history. He has toned down his inflammatory comments in alot of interviews.  At concerts, he takes a more laid back approach as well. It seemed like the shows after 83 became extremely Mike centric, with a few exceptions. I'm not saying it was his fault for that happening, the set list, Carl's increased passiveness, lack of Dennis all contributed but it didn't help the bands image cause people focused on his poor jokes, and cringe worthy moments as well his nasal voice. Now today, while Mike is still the front man , he is toned down, he doesnt have huge monologues as much and thats a good thing. He seems comfortable and thats a good thing. I appreciate him more as part of the band.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Amy, I agree that Mike could/could've been more gracious with some of his comments, couldn't we all. But, I view it as Mike just trying to give an honest answer to a legitimate question posed to him. I mean, some interviewer asked him the question(s) and deserved an honest answer.

If somebody asked Mike about the drugs that plagued the group, well, Brian and Dennis's names are gonna come up. The only alternative would be for Mike to refuse to answer, or, as you mentioned, be a little less direct. As far as BWPS, I have a feeling Mike isn't impressed by it, so, again, why be dishonest and falsely praise it. Same with Brian's touring. I have mentioned several times on this board (and got hammered for it) that Brian's performance in concert is overrated, with his band being the real stars. Maybe Mike feels the same way.

Yes, Mike can come off as arrogant. But at least he's honest, which is more than I can say for our beloved Brian - and sometimes Al and Bruce (read some of the insanity that comes out of them). I find Mike's honesty refreshing, actually.

[Smilin Ed H]

It's clear from early stories that there was conflict between the Wilsons and their cousin, as well as a lot of love.  I guess if Mike was a dick in Dennis' eyes, he must have thought the same of Dennis. I don't like a lot of what Love has done - I think he has cheapened the artistic reputation of the band (though he's doing a gteat job in concert these days),  Unfortunately, in a lot of people's eyes (fans and non-fans alike), this has had the effect of diminishing his role as one of the lead singers of a great band and a co-writer of some of the best pop/rock songs out there - and the lack of recognition he gets from critics is shameful. He must have seen things disintegrating around him, especially after 73 with the Wilsons on drugs and drink (particularly Brian and Dennis), Dennis' solo success offering a different route to a major songwriter - it could've been the end of not only his gravy train but the soul of the group, his life's work, if you will, so he w anted to return to the good ol' days and the songs (or songs in the manner of) that they were known for.  In some ways, Landy was doing the same with Brian to help him recharge.

As for his own stuff: if his first solo album had been released, it certainly wouldn't have hurt his reputation; the one that was released smacks of easy listening and his singing is too nasal to bear.  Like a lot of BB work - a bad choice.