Don't F**k With the Formula

[SenorPotatoHead]

This is not a defense of Mike, or the others, nor is it meant as a slag to Brian, or the others - but:   There is always this presentation of Brian as the totally nice, sensitive, genius artist guy and basically the others were lucky and should have shut up, done their jobs and completely supported Brian no matter what.  I often feel that way too, but it's easy to feel that way in hindsight, and especially when you are only an observer and not actually in the know.  And I think the other guys probably did feel that way to some extent or more, but they also knew Brian closely and had to deal with him - good and bad (whereas most of us, or all of us, really don't know Brian and never have had to deal with him on a daily basis)
There's a quote by Brian in the Pet Sounds documentary where he relays telling Mike love, who was upset that Brian was working with Tony Asher on the album, that (paraphrasing) "It's just for this album and we'll do another album after."  Indicating that he gave Mike the impression that he would work with Mike next time out, which he did on GV, but when it came to the album proper (Smile) he was working with Parks.   So Brian maybe wasn't always so sensitive about other peoples feelings, his own, yes, but maybe not others.  No big fault there - everybody can be self absorbed at times and thoughtless about others, especially I suppose when you are "a genius creating cutting edge, masterpieces of modern pop" etc.  
Mike maybe could be a dink, but Brian also probably could be a dink too (albeit in a more passive aggressive sort of way). Throw Murry into the mix and there's another dink.  
Maybe I'm a dink for saying this though, but so be it.  

[clack]

Whether Mike said it or not, some variation on this quote must have been made by many another music biz person at one time or another in their career -- Berry Gordy for sure.

[Empire Of Love]

My thoughts

- Michael saying "Don't f*** With The Formula" isn't some great crime, it was his opinion and many would argue he was right.  Even if you feel he was completely wrong, you can't hate on somebody for having a different opinion than yours, people should be able to discuss things they disagree with, that's how we all learn.  I don't see anything egregious about that statement if he ever even made it.  It's just an opinion, man.

An opinion, yes. Mike's, no. Suppose I'd asked Voyle Giilmore, and he'd said it was a Capitol suit and not Mike. End of discussion. 

You stated that "eff with the formula" is an opinion but not Mike's opinion.  If you meant simply to say that it is not a direct quote, then I misunderstood.  Do you agree that it was his opinion even if not his direct quote?  Or do you think it was not his opinion?

"An opinion, yes. Mike's, no." Seriously, I have to spell it out for you ?  Apparently. Very well. "Dfwtf" is an opinion, but it wasn't Mike's opinion. According to Mike, who was there. Of course, that renders the claim invalid in some eyes, which was my subordinate point.

We dare not question Mike when other eye witnesses claim he held the position.  After all, most people who find themselves on the wrong side of history freely admit they were wrong and don't try to re-write the story.  Why would Mike be any different?

Really Andrew, this entire part of the conversation is centered around multiple witnesses contradicting Mike's rather recent revisionism over his original thoughts re: Pet Sounds and Smile.  We are trying to get to the bottom of it, you take Mike's word as gospel.  Why do you pretend there is no contrary evidence and everyone who disagrees with you and he-who-has-the-most-to-lose do so simply because Mike said so?  Not very honest of you Andrew.

[The LEGENDARY OSD]

Mike Love: "I call it 'acid alliteration. The [lyrics are] far out. But do they relate like 'Surfin' USA', like 'Fun, Fun, Fun,' like 'California Girls', like 'I Get Around'? Perhaps not! So that's the distinction. See, I'm into success. These words equal successful hit records; those words don't."

LOL

Is this a real quote?  Because again, according to Andrew, Cam, FP, and the gang, Mike's opinion was not of the "don't eff with the formula crowd." Except there it is, in his own words.

"...I'm into success." REALLY??? Embarrassing solo outings, "Every One's in LuHv With Me-oops, You", "Sumahrishi", "Pieceeze Brohthers" to name a few. Care to explain, myKe??

[SMiLE Brian]

Success in Mike's mind = crass tacky sh*t for the rest of the fan base.

[SenorPotatoHead]

F*cking with the formula is not always a good thing either, let's recall (note the tale of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde)  

[ontor pertawst]

Good thing it was Brian Wilson and not Bela Lugosi fucking with the formula, then. Otherwise the end of SMiLE could've turned out like the end of Bride of the Monster.



"He tampered in God's domain."

[SMiLE Brian]

Ontor!

[CenturyDeprived]

There's a quote by Brian in the Pet Sounds documentary where he relays telling Mike love, who was upset that Brian was working with Tony Asher on the album, that (paraphrasing) "It's just for this album and we'll do another album after."  Indicating that he gave Mike the impression that he would work with Mike next time out, which he did on GV, but when it came to the album proper (Smile) he was working with Parks.   

I don't know why it's so far-fetched for people to think that Brian felt pressured into making that kind of concession/promise. 

[Sheriff John Stone]

My guess is this sentiment was expressed by Mike and the Capital suits and maybe some fans as well.
EoL

SOME fans? Look at the history of the group and Brian Wilson. SOME fans? Are you sure you don't want to change that to MOST fans?

You think most fans of BB and BW have held to the don't eff with the formula opinion?

I don't think it, I know it.

The fans weren't "calling" or asking Brian Wilson to change. It wasn't being reflected in record sales. It was Brian Wilson the artist/musician who was changing...or evolving. And, Brian was able to walk that line, staying one step ahead of the competition, staying one step ahead of the fans, - and he made it work. Why? Because, even though he was moving forward, he was still in touch with his fan base. His fans still, um, liked(!) his music. His music was still commercial, or, it was still commercial ENOUGH. He was still making music that his fans WANTED to hear. Fans went to Brian for "something" and he would deliver. And then that changed. Brian changed it.

His fans didn't want "Heroes And Villains" and  Smiley Smile. They didn't want Friends. Or Sunflower. Or The Beach Boys Love You. And on and on. Fans of The Beach Boys wanted them for something specific - the formula - and once Brian changed the formula, he lost them. And he never got them back.

Check out the best-selling Beach Boys' singles in the 1970's. "Rock And Roll Music", "Come Go With Me", "The Beach Boys Medley". Throw in "Almost Summer". Move into the 80's and you have "Getcha Back" and "Kokomo". Not to get into semantics with "Kokomo" but it's formula. Beach Boys' fans know what they want from The Beach Boys. Endless Summer's success wasn't just a product of nostalgia. It's an album of Beach Boys' songs that fans WANT to play on their record players!

Why didn't Brian Wilson succeed commercially as a solo artist? That would take about 38 pages on this board, but maybe it's simply because Brian Wilson ain't The Beach Boys. And that's what fans wanted from Brian. And, when I say fans, I'm not talking about the 5-10% of Beach Boys' fans who still buy his records and frequent his concerts. I'm talking about the other 90% of The Beach Boys' fans. The ones who are longing for fun, summer love, and good vibrations. Fans "use" artists. They want certain "things" from their bands. Fans of The Beach Boys - again those other 90%, not the people on this board - want the formula.

Brian Wilson can't buy a hit. He can't even get his singles to chart. His albums come, stay for a week or two or three, and leave. And, then in 2012, The Beach Boys release an album and it goes to No. 3. Again, another 38 pages would be necessary to explain why. But I think it's more than a coincidence that Brian Wilson, the solo artist, struggles, and, as soon as it's Brian Wilson AND The Beach Boys, the album goes to No. 3. I think it was because the fans wanted and EXPECTED - the formula. The fans almost got it. Almost.

I'm not one of those 90% of Beach Boys' fans who want the formula, fans who won't settle for anything else, fans who aren't even open for anything else. I'm in the other 5-10%. But I think I can at least understand them, the 90%. And, for me anyway, it explains a lot of the commercial successes and failures of Brian Wilson and The Beach Boys.

[CenturyDeprived]

My guess is this sentiment was expressed by Mike and the Capital suits and maybe some fans as well.
EoL

SOME fans? Look at the history of the group and Brian Wilson. SOME fans? Are you sure you don't want to change that to MOST fans?

You think most fans of BB and BW have held to the don't eff with the formula opinion?

I don't think it, I know it.

The fans weren't "calling" or asking Brian Wilson to change. It wasn't being reflected in record sales. It was Brian Wilson the artist/musician who was changing...or evolving. And, Brian was able to walk that line, staying one step ahead of the competition, staying one step ahead of the fans, - and he made it work. Why? Because, even though he was moving forward, he was still in touch with his fan base. His fans still, um, liked(!) his music. His music was still commercial, or, it was still commercial ENOUGH. He was still making music that his fans WANTED to hear. Fans went to Brian for "something" and he would deliver. And then that changed. Brian changed it.

His fans didn't want "Heroes And Villains" and  Smiley Smile. They didn't want Friends. Or Sunflower. Or The Beach Boys Love You. And on and on. Fans of The Beach Boys wanted them for something specific - the formula - and once Brian changed the formula, he lost them. And he never got them back.

Check out the best-selling Beach Boys' singles in the 1970's. "Rock And Roll Music", "Come Go With Me", "The Beach Boys Medley". Throw in "Almost Summer". Move into the 80's and you have "Getcha Back" and "Kokomo". Not to get into semantics with "Kokomo" but it's formula. Beach Boys' know what they want from The Beach Boys. Endless Summer success was not just a product of nostalgia. It's Beach Boys' songs that fans want to play on their record players!

Why didn't Brian Wilson succeed commercially as a solo artist? That would take about 38 pages on this board, but maybe it's simply because Brian Wilson ain't The Beach Boys. And that's what fans wanted from Brian. And, when I say fans, I'm not talking about the 5-10% of Beach Boys' fans who still buy his records and frequent his concerts. I'm talking about the other 90% of The Beach Boys' fans. The ones who are longing for fun, summer love, and good vibrations. Fans "use" artists. They want certain "things" from their bands. Fans of The Beach Boys - again those other 90%, not the people on this board - want the formula.

Brian Wilson can't buy a hit. He can't even get his singles to chart. His albums come, stay for a week or two or three, and leave. And, then in 2012, The Beach Boys release an album and it goes to No. 3. Again, another 38 pages would be necessary to explain why. But I think it's more than a coincidence that Brian Wilson, the solo artist, struggles, and, as soon as it's Brian Wilson AND The Beach Boys, the album goes to No. 3. I think it was because the fans wanted and EXPECTED - the formula. The fans almost got it. Almost.

I'm not one of those 90% of Beach Boys' fans who want the formula, fans who won't settle for anything else, fans who aren't even open for anything else. I'm in the other 5-10%. But I think I can at least understand them, the 90%. And, for me anyway, it explains a lot of the commercial successes and failures of Brian Wilson and The Beach Boys.

There's more to a music career than just monetary success and sales. As Brian seems to be most proud of the Gershwin album (which was not a giant hot seller), it shows that while the man still absolutely values and wants success, he also (especially with hinsight) can realize that projects that aren't huge hits still have significant artistic and personal value to him, not to mention the fans who love such work.  Otherwise he'd say that "Concert" was his fave BB album instead of "Friends" or "Love You". Granted his choice changes in interviews, but the slower-selling albums don't have the cooties to Brian by virtue of chart performance.

Yes, he aimed high with Gershwin - they got some fancy well-known guy to master the album, hoping to get it awards - but ultimately, I don't think that project was approached with the mindset of "THIS MUST BE A HIT"/ "WHERE'S THE HOOK?". Sometimes the man wants to make art, and have the hit potential be secondary, and he deserves and deserved support without pushback when that desire came to him. Both then and now.

I think that even if Brian had been given unconditional support from Mike and more from the Boys back in '66/'67, if they all banded together and helped him finish SMiLE (even if it took helping Brian out with the physical cutting/splicing of mountains of tapes if need be)... if the album had not sold well, but the band still believed in Brian and didn't show pushback/resistance, that Brian ON HIS OWN, SOLE VOLITION might well have tried to go back to a more commercial type sound soon after. Hell, there's a glimpse of that with Breakaway. But he should have gotten more support - he needed to get that music out of him, and to not experience being worn down by those around him...and while it's fair to empathize with why his mates (especially Mike) were scared and didn't "get" it... hard as I'm sure it was to deal with Brian at the time, an artist of Brian's caliber still deserved better. Not just by Capitol, but by his mates (Mike most of all). PERIOD.  

That said, Brian's music is typically furthered significantly in terms of quality when all the Boys are involved.  

[ontor pertawst]

SJS, voice of the Silent Majority, Keeper of the Formula. It's good BW didn't pay attention to such mean-spirited career advice, "Heroes and Villains" alone was worth it!

 I like how he seems to think BW underachieved somehow, that having all of those hits, changing the face of pop music, influencing generations, bringing joy and hope to mopey goofballs dealing with breakups by ingesting Pet Sounds, AND a bunch of diverse experiments and different styles wasn't enough. He should somehow be having #1 singles in his 70s too. I wonder if Mike Love should be held to those standards too, I mean he certainly kept with the formula and despite Queen Latifah's help, Pisces Brothers didn't burn up the charts or make much of an impact on anyone.

[filledeplage]

SJS, voice of the Silent Majority, Keeper of the Formula. It's good BW didn't pay attention to such mean-spirited career advice, "Heroes and Villains" alone was worth it!

 I like how he seems to think BW underachieved somehow, that having all of those hits, changing the face of pop music, influencing generations, bringing joy and hope to mopey goofballs dealing with breakups by ingesting Pet Sounds, AND a bunch of diverse experiments and different styles wasn't enough. He should somehow be having #1 singles in his 70s too. I wonder if Mike Love should be held to those standards too, I mean he certainly kept with the formula and despite Queen Latifah's help, Pisces Brothers didn't burn up the charts or make much of an impact on anyone.

Ontor - did you read my post where Capitol released Then I Kissed Her/Mountain of Love, from 1965, in the UK in 1967? Complete with a promo video!

And with commentary from 2 band members who were unhappy that pre-Pet Sounds material was being released two years after the fact?

Does that not shock you? Or would you just rather ignore objective facts and keep up the insults? I happen to dislike people being falsely accused.

There is plenty to debunk this "formula" nonsense.  SJS doesn't deserve abuse anymore than any other poster.  Singling out people undermines cred. Jmho.

And if he us supporting a formula the trail leads to Capitol.

[SMiLE Brian]

Don't f*** with the formula of defending Mike Love to the death. Such a touchy group of people around "the lounge singer"

[filledeplage]

Don't f*** with the formula of defending Mike Love to the death. Such a touchy group of people around "the lounge singer"

Smile Brian - I provided plenty of evidence to debunk this nonsense.

Clearly you may not be receptive to that evidence.

[Debbie KL]

SJS, voice of the Silent Majority, Keeper of the Formula. It's good BW didn't pay attention to such mean-spirited career advice, "Heroes and Villains" alone was worth it!

 I like how he seems to think BW underachieved somehow, that having all of those hits, changing the face of pop music, influencing generations, bringing joy and hope to mopey goofballs dealing with breakups by ingesting Pet Sounds, AND a bunch of diverse experiments and different styles wasn't enough. He should somehow be having #1 singles in his 70s too. I wonder if Mike Love should be held to those standards too, I mean he certainly kept with the formula and despite Queen Latifah's help, Pisces Brothers didn't burn up the charts or make much of an impact on anyone.

Yep, what a shame that "God Only Knows" proved to be such a dismal failure in the long run...  That certainly f**ked with the formula.  This is all so absurd.  Surf music was hardly hip or selling in the later 60's or 70's.  I was there and I was a fan.  We were all looking for something more interesting as far as musical concepts were concerned.  We didn't stop loving those gorgeous compositions, harmonies, nor productions.  But we wanted something more thought-provoking and quite a few of us were growing with Brian.  Describing Brian's actions in response to an awareness of this as what caused the BBs decline in sales is certainly re-writing history.  I seriously doubt "Shut Down Vol III" would have sold any better...in fact...  

[filledeplage]

SJS, voice of the Silent Majority, Keeper of the Formula. It's good BW didn't pay attention to such mean-spirited career advice, "Heroes and Villains" alone was worth it!

 I like how he seems to think BW underachieved somehow, that having all of those hits, changing the face of pop music, influencing generations, bringing joy and hope to mopey goofballs dealing with breakups by ingesting Pet Sounds, AND a bunch of diverse experiments and different styles wasn't enough. He should somehow be having #1 singles in his 70s too. I wonder if Mike Love should be held to those standards too, I mean he certainly kept with the formula and despite Queen Latifah's help, Pisces Brothers didn't burn up the charts or make much of an impact on anyone.

Yep, what a shame that "God Only Knows" proved to be such a dismal failure in the long run...  That certainly f**ked with the formula.  This is all so absurd.  Surf music was hardly hip or selling in the later 60's or 70's.  I was there and I was a fan.  We were all looking for something more interesting as far as musical concepts were concerned.  We didn't stop loving those gorgeous compositions, harmonies, nor productions.  But we wanted something more thought-provoking and quite a few of us were growing with Brian.  Describing Brian's actions in response to an awareness of this as what caused the BBs decline in sales is certainly re-writing history.  I seriously doubt "Shut Down Vol III" would have sold any better...in fact...  

What really undermined the band? Or who? If the record company under promoted the albums, who's the problem?

Yes, it is absurd. But not all of the music was ever painted with a surf, car or girl brush. It was more diverse from the outset.  There is something on each album that is thought provoking and profound.  They didn't become gorgeous become on Pet Sounds.  They were evolving all along.

The hate here creates imbalance and discord. 

[CenturyDeprived]

SJS, voice of the Silent Majority, Keeper of the Formula. It's good BW didn't pay attention to such mean-spirited career advice, "Heroes and Villains" alone was worth it!

 I like how he seems to think BW underachieved somehow, that having all of those hits, changing the face of pop music, influencing generations, bringing joy and hope to mopey goofballs dealing with breakups by ingesting Pet Sounds, AND a bunch of diverse experiments and different styles wasn't enough. He should somehow be having #1 singles in his 70s too. I wonder if Mike Love should be held to those standards too, I mean he certainly kept with the formula and despite Queen Latifah's help, Pisces Brothers didn't burn up the charts or make much of an impact on anyone.

Yep, what a shame that "God Only Knows" proved to be such a dismal failure in the long run...  That certainly f**ked with the formula.  This is all so absurd.  Surf music was hardly hip or selling in the later 60's or 70's.  I was there and I was a fan.  We were all looking for something more interesting as far as musical concepts were concerned.  We didn't stop loving those gorgeous compositions, harmonies, nor productions.  But we wanted something more thought-provoking and quite a few of us were growing with Brian.  Describing Brian's actions in response to an awareness of this as what caused the BBs decline in sales is certainly re-writing history.  I seriously doubt "Shut Down Vol III" would have sold any better...in fact...  

What really undermined the band? Or who? If the record company under promoted the albums, who's the problem?

Yes, it is absurd. But not all of the music was ever painted with a surf, car or girl brush. It was more diverse from the outset.  There is something on each album that is thought provoking and profound.  They didn't become gorgeous become on Pet Sounds.  They were evolving all along.

The hate here creates imbalance and discord.  

I don't think anybody doesn't blame the record company for underproduction being part of the problem. But it wasn't the whole problem.  And yes, Brian was evolving all along, until he evolved too far for some, a quantum leap beyond what some people around him could comprehend, but what future generations would come to appreciate deeply... and that's when the internal bandmate pushback took hold more than ever before.  It's unfortunate, and it should not be qualified as not being unfortunate. What's done is done, and nobody needs to be a "bad guy", but let's not say it isn't a bummer that Brian's mates, spearheaded by Mike, weren't more open-minded.

The discussion here is not a matter of hate, or at least not for me. I don't hate any member of this band. But posters who are too hardline into defending the "formula" quote/sentiment need to give a little, and realize that in hindsight the sentiment (or quote, if it was actually said) may have been short-sighted. Just maybe a little.

[Debbie KL]

SJS, voice of the Silent Majority, Keeper of the Formula. It's good BW didn't pay attention to such mean-spirited career advice, "Heroes and Villains" alone was worth it!

 I like how he seems to think BW underachieved somehow, that having all of those hits, changing the face of pop music, influencing generations, bringing joy and hope to mopey goofballs dealing with breakups by ingesting Pet Sounds, AND a bunch of diverse experiments and different styles wasn't enough. He should somehow be having #1 singles in his 70s too. I wonder if Mike Love should be held to those standards too, I mean he certainly kept with the formula and despite Queen Latifah's help, Pisces Brothers didn't burn up the charts or make much of an impact on anyone.

Yep, what a shame that "God Only Knows" proved to be such a dismal failure in the long run...  That certainly f**ked with the formula.  This is all so absurd.  Surf music was hardly hip or selling in the later 60's or 70's.  I was there and I was a fan.  We were all looking for something more interesting as far as musical concepts were concerned.  We didn't stop loving those gorgeous compositions, harmonies, nor productions.  But we wanted something more thought-provoking and quite a few of us were growing with Brian.  Describing Brian's actions in response to an awareness of this as what caused the BBs decline in sales is certainly re-writing history.  I seriously doubt "Shut Down Vol III" would have sold any better...in fact...  

What really undermined the band? Or who? If the record company under promoted the albums, who's the problem?

Yes, it is absurd. But not all of the music was ever painted with a surf, car or girl brush. It was more diverse from the outset.  There is something on each album that is thought provoking and profound.  They didn't become gorgeous become on Pet Sounds.  They were evolving all along.

The hate here creates imbalance and discord. 

I think my comment was pretty clear that the old stuff was beautiful too.  And of course, such songs as "In My Room" were introspective.  I'm talking about the old image that was incredibly uncool in the late 60's/early 70's.  There was at least as much pressure to be "groovy" then as it is to be "hip" now.  Brian got that.  I'm not even certain what you're arguing with, since it seems to be what I already said.

[filledeplage]

SJS, voice of the Silent Majority, Keeper of the Formula. It's good BW didn't pay attention to such mean-spirited career advice, "Heroes and Villains" alone was worth it!

 I like how he seems to think BW underachieved somehow, that having all of those hits, changing the face of pop music, influencing generations, bringing joy and hope to mopey goofballs dealing with breakups by ingesting Pet Sounds, AND a bunch of diverse experiments and different styles wasn't enough. He should somehow be having #1 singles in his 70s too. I wonder if Mike Love should be held to those standards too, I mean he certainly kept with the formula and despite Queen Latifah's help, Pisces Brothers didn't burn up the charts or make much of an impact on anyone.

Yep, what a shame that "God Only Knows" proved to be such a dismal failure in the long run...  That certainly f**ked with the formula.  This is all so absurd.  Surf music was hardly hip or selling in the later 60's or 70's.  I was there and I was a fan.  We were all looking for something more interesting as far as musical concepts were concerned.  We didn't stop loving those gorgeous compositions, harmonies, nor productions.  But we wanted something more thought-provoking and quite a few of us were growing with Brian.  Describing Brian's actions in response to an awareness of this as what caused the BBs decline in sales is certainly re-writing history.  I seriously doubt "Shut Down Vol III" would have sold any better...in fact...  

What really undermined the band? Or who? If the record company under promoted the albums, who's the problem?

Yes, it is absurd. But not all of the music was ever painted with a surf, car or girl brush. It was more diverse from the outset.  There is something on each album that is thought provoking and profound.  They didn't become gorgeous become on Pet Sounds.  They were evolving all along.

The hate here creates imbalance and discord.  

I don't think anybody doesn't blame the record company for underproduction being part of the problem. But it wasn't the whole problem.  And yes, Brian was evolving all along, until he evolved too far for some, a quantum leap beyond what some people around him could comprehend, but what future generations would come to appreciate deeply... and that's when the pushback took hold more than ever before.

The discussion here is not a matter of hate, or at least not for me. I don't hate any member of this band. But posters who are too hardline into defending the "formula" quote/sentiment need to give a little, and realize that in hindsight the sentiment (or quote, if it was actually said) may have been short-sighted. Just maybe a little.

CD - today I was shocked reading what chicanery Capitol was up to in 1967, releasing minor work, 2 years post release, in the UK, which picked up the huge support that fell by the wayside in the States.  Apparently others weren't.

Those facts are not unimportant and I guess the law would call it "exculpatory" in nature.  Meaning that it would tend to show someone wasn't guilty.  That would be the band members. It should be persuasive. But never reaches a faction that is disinclined to consider alternatives. Or do a little research, instead of just running their mouths. A lot of the posters have been to college (not a requirement, of course) so why not "raise the bar?"

It was unreasonable of Capitol, and clearly didn't appreciate the "gorgeous" work cited above. As was a Best of Vol. 1 only eight weeks post Pet Sounds. They were already conspiring at the record company to "milk the early work," to the detriment of the later work.

This isn't a game of win or lose.  We all lose with this divisiveness.

Instead of posters being likewise shocked and perhaps being more open minded, and tolerant, it is more of the same.  

Discussion of he-said, she-said, during the course of recording, seems a little voyeuristic, and shows no respect for that "what happens in Vegas" that we all want, in terms of privacy.  Can't the band 's business remain businesslike? I don't care what was said; I care what was accomplished.

[filledeplage]

SJS, voice of the Silent Majority, Keeper of the Formula. It's good BW didn't pay attention to such mean-spirited career advice, "Heroes and Villains" alone was worth it!

 I like how he seems to think BW underachieved somehow, that having all of those hits, changing the face of pop music, influencing generations, bringing joy and hope to mopey goofballs dealing with breakups by ingesting Pet Sounds, AND a bunch of diverse experiments and different styles wasn't enough. He should somehow be having #1 singles in his 70s too. I wonder if Mike Love should be held to those standards too, I mean he certainly kept with the formula and despite Queen Latifah's help, Pisces Brothers didn't burn up the charts or make much of an impact on anyone.

Yep, what a shame that "God Only Knows" proved to be such a dismal failure in the long run...  That certainly f**ked with the formula.  This is all so absurd.  Surf music was hardly hip or selling in the later 60's or 70's.  I was there and I was a fan.  We were all looking for something more interesting as far as musical concepts were concerned.  We didn't stop loving those gorgeous compositions, harmonies, nor productions.  But we wanted something more thought-provoking and quite a few of us were growing with Brian.  Describing Brian's actions in response to an awareness of this as what caused the BBs decline in sales is certainly re-writing history.  I seriously doubt "Shut Down Vol III" would have sold any better...in fact...  

What really undermined the band? Or who? If the record company under promoted the albums, who's the problem?

Yes, it is absurd. But not all of the music was ever painted with a surf, car or girl brush. It was more diverse from the outset.  There is something on each album that is thought provoking and profound.  They didn't become gorgeous become on Pet Sounds.  They were evolving all along.

The hate here creates imbalance and discord. 

I think my comment was pretty clear that the old stuff was beautiful too.  And of course, such songs as "In My Room" were introspective.  I'm talking about the old image that was incredibly uncool in the late 60's/early 70's.  There was at least as much pressure to be "groovy" then as it is to be "hip" now.  Brian got that.  I'm not even certain what you're arguing with, since it seems to be what I already said.

Debbie - the "uncool" window was shortened, in a way with "Do It Again" and people found it not just nostalgic but a sort of comfort zone. It was OK to think about the beach, and fun, while war-weary from Vietnam.  Everything didn't have to be serious and an exercise in intellectualism.

The GOK comment wasn't that clear to me. My bad if I misunderstood. It was on Side B, (what was the record company thinking?) and it didn't follow the single release pattern of a "new" song with an older one on side B.

We used GOK for the " mother-son" at my son's wedding.  I guess that's the "long run." 

[Chocolate Shake Man]

This is not a defense of Mike, or the others, nor is it meant as a slag to Brian, or the others - but:   There is always this presentation of Brian as the totally nice, sensitive, genius artist guy and basically the others were lucky and should have shut up, done their jobs and completely supported Brian no matter what.

No, they shouldn't have "shut up" and "supported Brian no matter what." However, I don't see why Brian needed to opposed quite so consistently. Again, to go over some of the historical record, some of which is noted in quotations which I have given, we have the music of Pet Sounds being characterized as "stupid songs"; we have people in the group not supporting Good Vibrations, calling it "too modern," and "too long."

This is followed up by Smile, for which the band "started to question Brian about the lyric content." There doesn't seem to be much opposition during the Wild Honey era, except this is the period in which the band opposed Brian's working with Redwood; then we know at least one Beach Boy who had a problem with the Friends album; this was soon followed by the debacle over Ol' Man River, where, according to Peter Carlin, the band grew aggravated over Brian's experimentations and apparently called an end to the sessions with Brian concluding that "Mike was really cocky about that one,"; after that we have the Breakaway single, which Al is on record as finding disappointing and frustrating because of it being "underproduced" by Brian. This criticism was not just limited to Cotton Fields though, as Al noted that Brian under-producing songs was "typical of his late 60s mentality." Perhaps this explains Al's critique of Brian's production of Cotton Fields as "stilted and stiff."

As far as I can tell, there isn't much criticism of Brian's Sunflower work, but Bruce notes that one member of the band outwardly put down Brian's major contribution to Surf's Up, Til I Die. After that, we have reports that the band rejected Brian's Mount Vernon and Fairway. Not sure if there are any quotes on record about anyone's personal feelings about it. Then when Brian makes his comeback in the mid-70s, Dennis criticizes his first work, 15 Big Ones, noting "People have waited all this time, anticipating a new Beach Boys album, and I hated to give them this. It was a great mistake to put Brian in full control. He was always the absolute producer, but little did he know that in his absence, people grew up, people became as sensitive as the next guy. Why do I relinquish my rights as an artist? The whole process was a little bruising."

In the ensuing years since, we have both Mike and Bruce publicly criticizing Brian's first solo album, Carl ending the mid-90s sessions, and Mike insinuating that Summer's Gone makes him want to kill himself.

Added to this are the very good points that guitarfool makes about Brian being harassed by his father about the direction his music was taking even before Pet Sounds and then after it too.

Now there's a lot of talk about how the internal friction is normal in bands but I'd be curious if you could find many examples out there where the creative leader of a band received this much consistent opposition (let alone  opposition to music as good as Help Me Rhonda, Pet Sounds, Good Vibrations, Smile, Friends, and Til I Die) and the band was all the better for it. This is not to say that everything Brian did was pure gold. I mean I certainly can't fault Dennis for not liking 15 Big Ones and yes, Brian's songs were less commercial from Pet Sounds forward (in the immediate sense). But it seems as if almost everything Brian did from 1966 forward was opposed, disliked, or put down by someone in the band and before that he had to face criticism from his father. And this is only rendered more frustrating when taking into account that the music he was making was better than just about any other music from the same period.

There's a quote by Brian in the Pet Sounds documentary where he relays telling Mike love, who was upset that Brian was working with Tony Asher on the album, that (paraphrasing) "It's just for this album and we'll do another album after."  Indicating that he gave Mike the impression that he would work with Mike next time out, which he did on GV, but when it came to the album proper (Smile) he was working with Parks.   So Brian maybe wasn't always so sensitive about other peoples feelings, his own, yes, but maybe not others.  No big fault there - everybody can be self absorbed at times and thoughtless about others, especially I suppose when you are "a genius creating cutting edge, masterpieces of modern pop" etc.  

There's a quote from Brian from the A&E Biography where he makes a deal with Mike about how Pet Sounds is the only album he's going to make that's like that. He doesn't say anything about how the deal was that he does this one with an outside artist and the next one he'd do with Mike. Maybe he says something different in the Pet Sounds bio though. I could watch it again but a quote would be very time-saving!  

Nevertheless, what a strange deal to make.

[Mike's Beard]

Congrats guys on totally missing the point of what SJS was making.

[SMiLE Brian]

That he can barely contain his bile of hating Brian Wilson.

[Mike's Beard]

I thought that was apparently my job?