The Smiley Smile Message Board

A lifetime ban was imposed on AGD. This decision was unanimous by all three mods and was agreed with by the SS board administrator. There are multiple reasons for this ban. Multiple posters complained of bullying and provided backup support. This involved a long term misuse of the PM function of this board. AGD has utilized the PM function to bully those he disagreed with, in some cases those who posted content that he disagreed with, up to and including labeling them trolls and threats that he would personally have them banned. Over the period of the better part of a decade, there have been contacts made to new members, always through PM and not public, using false information, rumors, and innuendo leveled against Brian and Melinda Wilson, their children and associates, as well as band members, information which was presented as coming from inside sources yet information which has been proven false.  AGD used his status as a respected historian to present his stories and innuendo as fact, backing it up with what were called impeccable or unimpeachable sources. One example was a suggestion that one or several posters through the years were really Melinda Wilson, a charge easily proven false yet had apparently come from an impeccable source. This has been ongoing to the point where the posters contacted with this kind of information and worse, even more personal issues involving the Wilson family and various band members, was offered as inside information from not just a respected source but impeccable sources beyond that, and there is no way to tell how many people believed or continue to believe false information. Some of it turned out to be not only false, but potentially libelous.

Good decision. I know both firsthand and through others how horrible he could be. Some of it is genuinely shocking.

Wow.

Amazing! Yet, you allow other assholes to run amuck in here with nary a word said. Over the years it has become quite apparent that this place masquerades as a Beach Boys fan board. It is quite the opposite. This place is nothing more than a Brianista veneration site. You are driving away the knowledgeable people from this site one person at a time. I don't know whether AGD did what you say or not, but I can tell you that I never received nothing but polite correspondence. If you act civil, most times you will be treated with the same respect. People need to learn that in here, and if not being civil is the criteria for banning, then you better start getting the ban hammer out, because there is plenty to go around. You talk about libel, libel? Then you better go back and read the board again. The stuff that gets posted in here just blows my mind. This place used to be great, now it just reeks. I am totally disgusted and saddened at what this place has become.

Yeah. That's big.

I am very sorry you feel that way. You should know me better than this. Andrew and I have been friends for over 10 years, off the board. In fact, in the past I have been accused (on more than one occasion, mind you) of being biased towards Andrew, and maybe at times that has been true.  He certainly has been given more slack than the average poster (when the process for permanent bands was '3 strikes and your out', he actually was on more than that). As as for the other posters mentioned? If we're talking about the same people, well, both had been suspended previously (by me, I might add) , one of them for an entire year. At the end of the day, right is right, regardless of whomever it is. So , no, I do not generally  treat one 'side' better than the other, and I am extremely hurt and offended to be accused otherwise.

So this decision was not made lightly, and to be frank, I'm sick to my stomach over it. But it was the right call.

As far as 'nary a word to be said', speaking for myself...I tend to handle most matters privately, if at all possible.. So just because nothing public appears to be happening, doesn't mean nothing actually is being done.

While the information surprises me, I see no reason to question the facts presented, given that they were presented by Charles LePage with unanimity from the moderators.
Given the facts, it's hard to avoid the result.

You do realize that rules are for everyone, right? BBs historian or not. Let me tell you sth. - I've got the same message about Melinda RIGHT after I said positive nice things about her in some thread. Among other things, he said she might marry Brian for money. Is that OK? Of course, I didn't believe it and stood behind my words. And - lo and behold - I was right! Ray Lawlor came into picture and confirmed in detailed post that she's good and every bashing towards her was unfair. Mr. Doe had to admit his being wrong in public but it turns out he continued spreading desinformation after that? pm'ing newbies and stuff. Do you approve it? Add to it calling people names and being rude, labeling such as beep*weasels, *beep*wits etc. I thought an author should be above it, be objective and not poke his nose and mind his business about what little arguments, even non-BBs arguments posters delve into. Just correct the dates and stuff, sth. like that.

Billy, I am sorry that you feel offended. What I had to say was to the Mods as a whole (team) and not directly aimed at you. Also, you know that in the past that I have defended the Mods in here quite often. It is a challenging job, to say the least. Since the newest Mod has been installed, this place has virtually run amuck. His cronies get away with all kinds of crap while others who won't tow his company line come under fire. As for Andrew, he takes an awful lot of sh*t in this place. I know I would lose my temper if I was under the types of attacks that he is under on a rather daily basis around here. Again, as I stated earlier, if you act civil, you will be treated civil. Have you ever noticed that he only acted like that with certain people? I have had disagreements with Andrew in the past, but he never treated me badly. How come? Because I didn't flat out attack him for his views like a few here do with regularity, with his every post. You reap what you sow.

Are you directing this all at Emily and me? I expressed surprise, not displeasure (or pleasure...I actually don't care). And she posted acceptance of the decision.

Point taken though it's tough to tell from "wow"; it can mean different things. From the context I thought it was disapproving of his ban.

This wasn't an easy thing to consider or do for anyone.  Andrew was one of the very few people who contacted me after I was falsely accused of abusing my privileges on this message board many years ago to let me know he found out my accuser wasn't a reliable or believable source of information.  I'll always appreciate him for that.  But when the moderators let me know what was going on with Andrew now, I had to agree with the course of action.

Absolutely. It's a loss, because Andrew is an exacting and able historian. But you gotta do what you gotta do. And in this case it sounds right.

Given that the allegations in question concern messages that most posters aren't able to see or judge, this discussion is generally going to be uninformed. It's unfortunate for all concerned.

That it's come to this... So sad.

This is all so surreal.

Here's a question, then; why would you allow him 'more strikes' than anyone else? I mean, for years people have said that there was unfair bias here, and you (moderators) would say that no, it isn't that way. And now here you are saying that yeah, in fact you have let certain people get away with more than they should. I don't see how that's right. I understand that I am not a frequent poster, yet I used to post here under a different name and left. Why? Because I felt AGD got away with doing pretty much whatever he wanted. I guess that moving forward, I'd just like to see some consistency. I know that moderating can be rough, but you just can't knowingly let somebody get away with stuff because you've been friends with him for 10 years.

Because it wasn't intentional. It wasn't until I looked at everything and really looked at how things have been that I realized how bad I've screwed up. I wasn't trying to let my judgment get so clouded., and for that I'm sorry as hell.

lifetime is a long time sometimes!  I was at this Church, actually plenty of times when two people stood up in front of everyone and took each other for a lifetime.  In some cases I've seen this lifetime performed several times for people who said they had already promised  a life time to one or two others.  Guess lifetime isn't always lifetime sometimes is what I''m sayin".  Seems it's easier to give another chance than have me explain things , don't you agree?

That's fair, and I appreciate your honesty  :)

Holy Mackerel Dandy!!!  I've shared posts, opinions and the occasional correspondence with Andrew via various related forums for over a dozen years.  NEVER has he ever tried ANY of 'this' with me.  He was true to his point of view but I saw that he had respect for other 'takes' on fact and history albeit begrudgingly.  But he did.

I know too that he has been quite ill for a couple of years and MAYBE...just maybe...his 'meds' might have tossed him for a loop?   THAT...or worry?  I don't know.  This will have an entirely negative impact on his lengthy and painstakingly precise work and his site/book as they relate to the Beach Boys.  How horrible to have your passions bring you to your knees.

sh*t!!!

This!

.

The thing I'd like to know is why it took so long for these allegations to come to light. When I co-modded with Billy and Klaas I never heard anything like this...and if I had something would have been done a lot sooner.

The mods made the right decision. Some will certainly grumble but the proof presented here is damning.

I need to ask something just so I am clear. How private is a Private Message? Due to the fact that we are often asked to do this when threads start to get out hand, I am concerned that maybe our Private Messages are not all that private. According to what is being said by Chuck and a few others here, it seems AGD is being banned for something what we have all been asked to do. Would something like this still have happened had this all taken place through regular email? I mean misinformation is posted here ad nauseum. Even libelous type comments are here in threads and often enough, nothing is done about them. Right or wrong, if Private Messages are being read by the Mods, then I do not consider this method private. A lesson to be learned, if this indeed is the case. Thanks!

I'm surprised that the constant accusation of certain members being on Mike's payroll hasn't been taken more seriously by the management.

Well that was sudden. I can hear OSD setting up party streamers already....

Seems to me that it is all subjective. There have been many things posted here that I totally abhor, yet some Mods and members see nothing wrong with any of it. Some respect and self control would go a long way and make the Mods lives much easier in here, not to mention easier on some of us members too.

What I want to know is why would he go about saying such things about Brian, his family and friends? What could he possibly have to gain from doing so? ???

I am not sure what to say...
I've known Andrew for, off and on, roughly 40 years.  I've never had the pleasure of meeting him, but count him as one of my "core" friends, going back to my old fanzine days and other friends like Derek Bill, Peter Reum, Steve Peters, BGAS, etc.
I don't post on here frequently (except for recently sparring with Mr. Pamplin), but when I lurk, I usually go automatically to any thread to which Andrew has posted a response.  As others have noted, he's the "go-to" person for historical information (whereas I try to be the "go-to" person for hysterical information).
I trust the mods have made a well-thought out decision, an extremely difficult decision, and I can't argue with the validity of that decision.
It's just that I can't imagine this board without Andrew.

People here say a lot of things about all of the band members. Why is any of it said? The hate that manifests itself over this band is astounding. Never in my wildest dreams did I expect to read the crap that gets posted in this forum. I suppose that I was naive, but the goings on in here really took me by surprise. Until coming in here, every Beach Boys fan that I ever met were nice people. I'd be totally embarrassed to bring another Beach Boys fan in here.

I'm aware that board is well known for its arguing, haven't some associates of the band referred to the board as toxic?

It wasn't always this way.

On a different note, the seat I'm sitting in currently is rather uncomfortable. I should get a new one...

It must be a pin cushion.

:lol

Lost your head again.

This is a sad turn of affairs. I liked AGD, pricks, warts and all. I always got the impression that he is deeply unhappy and that was why he acted (or rather reacted) the way he does. But I am pretty sure he is also the kind of guy who despises pity, so I'll move on, without pity.

Sail on dude.

I guess so. There are indeed a lot of positives to talk about instead, such as the wealth of knowledgeable posters and a good mod team.

Sometimes the desire to 'be right' clouds all better judgement and convinces one to embrace delusions (all are susceptible to this, lest ye think you are safe). The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. For a man devoted so rigorously to fact and fact-checking, the search for 'the truth' can just as easily rot one's convictions as reinforce them.  I strongly doubt AGD embarked on his course of actions with the intention to slander Brian or Melinda, even if that is what he accomplished in the end.

This! And it would involve a minimum of loss of face on all sides. The voice of reason.

The sad thing is, this will likely haunt him for the rest of his "career" in the Beach Boys research field.

Interesting idea.

a big loss of information to this board. how disappointing  :-[

Just an idea - if he's working for Mike (and we've all seen the pictures) and Mike's aim in the 2004 lawsuit was to stop Brian touring, then perhaps...

So instead of a ban he gets a promotion? Now we just need to find someone who is able to confirm if his responses are true or not.

  At times AGD was infuriating but his knowledge of The Beach Boys provided the necessary balance...I didn't dislike him. This is a sad turn of events on an increasingly sad forum.

Not forwards but sideways, as I see it.   

Exactly, this board is a great place in the end. No other board allows such freedom to talk about any subject on the band or other topics.

  "Great place in the end"...sure, if your definition of greatness is an eternal pissing contest between Brian and Mike fans with little sense of objectivity or reason. Am I 50/50 down the middle between Brian and Mike? Of course not, Brian is the man. Freedom to discuss any and all topics on a message board is a great thing, but your criteria for greatness differs from mine.

Is a Hot Dog really a sandwich?  How much will I miss AGD?   Picture him in the castle all alone,old but not used up.  Hope this is temporary at best as far as ban goes.  ASG is like a brother, kick his ass every chance you get, but still sleep in same room at night and talk.  Info, some needed some not.  Still think he was the gondola driver at the Venican in Vegas.

But you missed what I said about needing someone to confirm his answers are true - after all they seem to be accusing him of untruths - and if we can find someone who can do that, why don't they just use them instead.

Definition or criteria of "greatness" can be whatever the poster wants it to be. Whether it meets your terms or objectivity is irrelevant. There are those, I'm sure, who may feel the same about your posts. Bottom line is that yes, it's a great place in the end and with this recent action, an even greater place.

How are you planning to celebrate this occasion? Can we all be invited? ;D

OSD, you are a sad, sad man.

I must admit to having difficulties with the fact that the banning of AGD has been announced in the "Welcome" section. Surely this is off-putting to potential newbies? How about moving it to the Sandbox, mods? Just trying to be helpful...

Tickets are going fast. I may have to add another celebration or two. Scalpers everywhere.  ;D

Can I interest anyone in a healthy newtritious snack.

:lol

Beer?

I'm disappointed it came to this. If it's true, I'm disappointed he felt the need to say what he said. He isn't the only one, but he is one I respect. I've learnt more from him than from anyone else on the board and was enjoying his recent, rather academic thread about the Boys in 1964 - the kind of the thread the board needs to keep relevant and, above all, to keep its head above the inane mudslinging that, sadly, passes for debate these days.  From my personal point of view, the only objectionable pm I've had has come from a shithead who does his best to stir, though even then, I thought,"f*** it. Guy's an idiot," and went about my day. Unfortunately, in recent times, the whole atmosphere of the board has soured and, I think, there were times when things might have been dealt with more effectively. I only have your word for what happened but I'm sure none of the mods bear a grudge (and Billy clearly likes the guy) and wouldn't make this up, so I'm not questioning you, but the context of some of the "ass-hattery "(to quote AGD) that's been going on here also needs to take a hit.

Thirded.

And seconded.

I wonder how guitarfool feels about this?  ::)

I'm also curious whether or not he fessed up.

Time for that beer, I think. What a day.

Newtritious? Do you have anything for vegetarians?

Nope, in my case you are utterly wrong. Arguments I can handle, but the hate stuff that appears in here is not what I expected from a group of people who spend good amounts of time in here due to their fandom of the band. There was a time when I had dislikes of some band members, but as it turned out quite a bit of it was over things that turned out (through research) to be untrue. There are some remarkable people here who have spent good parts of their lives debunking myths and getting to the truth, and to them I am grateful. That is what I expected to find here, not all this other crap that gets posted here. For some, they think too high of their own opinions rather than facing the truth, and it is part of the reason why the myths perpetuate instead of dying on the vine.

To be honest this never should have even been a thread. Moderators have never started threads about anyone's banning until now. Moderators also don't owe anyone an explanation for their decision making. Make the decision, apologize for nothing, and move on. Trying to complicate the matter further isn't worth it. However, since this thread exists and an unwarranted level of attention has been drawn to a matter that should have been settled as soon as it was known to the management, how long DID the moderators know about this before taking action?

Meet?
-------------------

I still can't get over this banning of Andrew.  I'm not saying that he didn't do what people say he did.  Not saying that at all except for the fact that in the dozen plus years I've associated with him I NEVER experienced anything of the sort with him.  As far as he knew...I was just one of many fans.  So?

I'd submit that there must be a reason why Andrew fell from favour there and here.  And I would suggest that it has something to do with health issues and/or meds.  No one in their 'right' mind would do these things.  So if his mind isn't right...THAT can be corrected.  To find a LONG TIME asset  guilty w/o ascertaining as to why things unfolded as they did MIGHT be a tad hasty.

Geez.  In a very real and positive sense he certainly gave a LOT more than he took. :hat

If there's a victim, the perpetrator is not absolved from guilt because he or she may not be in the right frame of mind. The numbers don't lie...it seems several people had an issue that needed to be resolved and the moderators did what they had to do.

Amazing how the members who have a more moderate view of the band are the people who have never had any serious issues with Andrew. How odd! ;)

I get that.  You too Doc.

Also, the alleged spreading of false and potentially libelous information about Brian, his family, and people in his employ while at the same time saying that comments implying that he was on Michael's payroll were potentially libelous is just a smidge hypocritical on Andrew's part.

I guess when it's always "the other guy" who is greedy, it's always "the other guy" who is potentially libelous.

I think there are other experts on this board like Jon Stebbins, c-man and myself.  But I think the board will suffer from Andrew's absence because he somehow found the time to post all the time. The rest of us like the board but aren't as devoted to it as him.  Having an expert on hand for every topic may no longer be possible. And while I think I've become an expert, I have nowhere near the long term fandom connections of Andrew. He was already contributing articles to bb fanzines when Dennis was still a member! Sad indeed.

Also want to add: he may rub some people the wrong way but the website he created is the best ever on any music group!!! And he graciously offered to create the gigs/sessions section of that site just so I could have a place to post my research. And every time I send him an update to that site he zealously adds it! He loves the bbs!

Googling "Smiley Smile message board" or something similar and "smiley smile andrew doe" is one of the top search results. Google "Andrew Doe" and "andrew doe smiley smile" is one of the top results. He's posted more and more frequently then anyone here, regardless of his actions, he was an integral part of this board and it's a shame it had to end like this.

I think this thread is somewhat unfair.

People are saying that AGD did ... things. Things that weren't nice. They're not things that any of us can see, though, because they were sent via private message.

I respect that the moderators took the actions they needed to take. But a whole thread of speculating about and throwing brickbats at someone who isn't able to defend himself on the forum seems off to me.

Weirdly, I agree with almost everyone, though they seem to disagree with each other.
I agree that Mr. Doe was a huge asset to this board over the many years he was here. Go back through threads and he shows up with hard data that settles or informs complicated questions. He was, in some ways, the backbone of the board's knowledge base and I was very pleased to have the opportunity to interact with someone whose work I respect. I also never personally had a negative interaction with him. And am unhappy to hear he's unwell.
I'm also not a hard-and-fast rules person generally. I think enforcing rules should be conditional and I don't think it's unreasonable for rules to be bent, as I understand they had been in the past, for someone who brings so much to the board. Though, of course every effort should be made to bring even the most solid or impressive contributor in line with the rules.
But, there's a point where rules can't be bent anymore. If Mr. Doe was intentionally spreading malicious misinformation (an idea that surprises me but I've been surprised by people before, and if all the mods and Mr. LePage agree on something that was so against their interests I would find it even more surprising that it's not true) then that's a step too far.
So, it's an enormous shame and something that I wish could be reconciled in some way, but given the circumstances, I think the decision had to be what it was.

Well, had the mods banned him without explaining why, or even announce it, there would have been endless speculation about the reason. And hadn't they left this thread open for discussion, someone would've started another thread about it. Better to keep the discussion in the same thread as the explanation.

Sorry to hear this news.

I looked through AGD's posting history and I didn't see anything out of the ordinary or ban worthy. What happened? (I have a feeling I am not the only one who feels out of the loop)

This happened.

I wonder if he was given the chance to defend himself? Or was it that cut and dry? I'm not asking for specifics, just wondering how bad something has to be where you get the lifetime ban, and not get to defend yourself?

This wasn't an isolated incident


Agreed.

.

This message board will not last forever.  It is, however, bigger than one person's contributions.   

@bgas: exactly.

So, I am guessing then that bootleg trade/share talk better cease in PM's, as well. It will get you banned on the board for being an illegal activity and I assume if someone shares it with the Mods it makes it just illegal as say, libel.

It may well be that way for you, but AGD was/is the single most person in this place supplying the facts. And that is a fact. None of the experts post in here nearly as much as Andrew has.

I've often thought that Andrew should have been a mod. His board presence was that strong.

Strong board pressence does not equal qualified moderator, otherwise OSD and SB should be qualified as well.

I don't think that anybody can say for a fact that whatever he did wasn't ban-worthy. On the surface it may seem outlandish, but if he was doing something truly sinister, than they did what they had to do. Nobody knows for sure, except AGD and the mods. The biggest mistake they've seemed to have made is not being a bit harder on him in the past when they should've been. Billy admitted as much.

I banned him twice during my time as moderator; this must have been the third strike.

It was.

Nothing else needs explanation. The mods did what they had to do. They were completely within their protocol.

Absolutely not. This has nothing to do with a person's historical knowledge. This has to do with temperament and behavior (libelous behavior) which goes over the line.

Look. I still find it incredulous that Andrew did the things that were detailed in Chuck's initial post. As Emily mentioned, I've been surprised before and misread people before, so anything is possible.

In light of his exhaustive contributions to the world of BB research, it stands to reason that he must have engaged in activity which proved so libelous, so abhorrent, that it rendered his legacy moot. As it stands, I take the opinions of the mods at face value; Chuck needed to do what he had to do. I thought Andrew was a better man than that, but apparently he's deeply, sadly flawed. I hope he takes the opportunity to do some badly needed soul searching and come out a better man. He's become this generation's Brad Elliott.

Well, then the one thing that this exercise has proved, at least to me, is that Private Messages are NOT private. I will never use that feature in here again.

They are as private as the two parties involved in each private conversation allow them to be.  And, while they are a means to share information that shouldn't be shared publicly, they aren't a means to say things that shouldn't be shared anywhere.

Well, in the context that the Mods asked us to use them, then yes, sometimes they can be things that wouldn't be shared here on the board, which is why they asked us to use PM's. Had this been done using email would you ban for the same offense?

The mods are there to moderate Smiley Smile not everyone's lives.

Doe's ban is all for the best. Something changed with Andrew in the past three years that made him a bully on the board.

I lost all respect for Andrew when he deleted me as a facebook friend because I didn't believe that Denni Leanne was really Dennis's daughter. We had been friends for some time when this happened. If someone does that to me over a lie then never apologizes, that's it. His ex girlfriend, can't remember her name, did the same thing. AGD thinks he's God's gift to women and Beach Boys fans. Karma is a bitch.

.

We can do without this kind of axegrinding drivel - not relevant to the ban in question and contributing to the speculative tendency of this thread; Billy & Charles, could you please address?

I imagine they would've if they involved bullying of any kind.

 If you're bullying someone, if it's by PM, then it should be brought to the attention of the moderators. The only reason that this is an issue is because of who it is; it seems a lot of people want to give it a pass because he's a great BB historian. That doesn't give him a right to bully people. To be honest, there were a lot of times through the years that he bullied people right out in the open. Whether you liked him or not (and to be honest here, I didn't care for him for a long while, but sort of grew to like him), you can't claim that that kind of behavior is acceptable.

Very true.

Yeah, that wasn't needed.

 :rock

Reap what you sow.
(I looked and couldn't find a farmer emoticon)

If very true, make sure, then, these rules are governed consistently.  If Andrew has legitimately breached rules and been banned, then so be it; I am not privy to the proof but imagine it cuts both ways - but please ensure the same rules are held up for the other bullies and dubious human being excuses who f*** this place up.

To quote Pretty Funky in the Rocky book thread, "I just think it's a bit rich he joins the board and straight away thinks that earns him the right to insult members and put posters down......That's AGD's gig!  "

This was a funny in Rocky's thread yet sad and very true! AGD became known to some on the board, not as a historian, but a cyber bully. Post something he thought stupid, or a misspelling/typo, and you might well incur his wrath. Some very nice people were attacked.

Though he formally worshiped at the temple of Brian's genius, he apparently did something that ousted him from access to Brian's camp. From then on he promoted ML as a genius equal to Brian. (In my mind, he lost his credibilty then and there. Thus the running joke of him being on Mike's payroll).

Post something negatitve about Mike and you might well get a scathing, nasty PM from Doe.

PMs are private except when someone starts sending unsolicited phony, libel info about other people...

I agree Donna, karma is a bitch!

I second that. You don't even need to name names to figure out who they are.

Funny, it don't take much guessing who is pro & con regarding AGD. ;)

 :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup

DrBeachBoy, sadly, the ends justify the means with some people!

(sigh) The bigger they are, the harder they fall.

AGD in happier times...

(http://i68.tinypic.com/2hxq3jd.jpg)

I really don't like the kicking around someone who's not here aspect of this thread.

+1 (or whatever the kids do these days. Click "Like"? I "like" that?)  :)

I agree. This was extremely hard for me, and I'm sick to my stomach over having to do this (literally; this whole thing is playing hell with my ulcer). That said, this decision was not made lightly, and it was the right thing to do, end of story. Not much more to be said.

While I'm sure it would just lead to cries of censorship or whatever, I'd consider locking the thread.

And what the heck, just in case that happens, I'll add a few cents. Maybe more than two.

This is a message board. Just a message board. It doesn't matter much in real life. It's great fun, and as one of the people who was here from the start (and around its predecessors for a couple years--not as long as some, but longer than most), obviously I enjoy it here (sometimes? most of the time?). But it doesn't matter. People come, people go. Boards come, boards go. There is a ton of knowledge to be worked out, and there is a lot of fun to be had working it out. (I'm thinking of the great vocal thread, for example.) There are other topics being discussed, whether in the general music forum or the sandbox, by some really smart people. There is music being shared by talented board members.

A lot goes on, and will continue to go on, either on this board or--if the doom-and-gloomers are right--somewhere else. One ban won't break the internet. Banned people are still online elsewhere. Life goes on for them and us until it doesn't, but let's not over-dramatize. It just doesn't matter that much.

Mods do their jobs as well as they can: it's absurd to think there's some secret cabal in which they're trying to f*** some segment of us. Members mostly are cool, participating in discussions they want to and avoiding those they don't. A few pests pop up here and there and that's just the internet. Stop me if you've heard this before, but it just doesn't matter that much. It's tedious that a few people seem so wholly dedicated to worshiping or damning this or that band member or fellow board member, but that's life: there are pathetic assholes everywhere. But also let's not pretend the board was some haven until recently. There were always fights. Fights killed and birthed other boards. Whatever. (Insert "doesn't matter that much" phrase.)

But I agree with those above that an ongoing bitchfest about someone who can't weigh in himself is pretty pathetic. If you find it fun, you may want to mock my dead grandparents, too. Even easier targets, in that they're very unlikely to be posting pretty much everywhere else online other than here. (In fact I don't believe any of them were remotely competent on any computer, ever. So it would be REALLY easy.) Dancing on graves might seem fun and it's sure easy, but it's unseemly.

Can we grow up a little? If we're going to be nasty, at least have the courage to be nasty to people still around here. But maybe we can even avoid being nasty to each other quite so often.

Now if you'll excuse me, typing doesn't get me any drunker, so I've got work to do. 

Very well said, cap'n.  think I am going to lock it after all...nothing more that really needs to be said.

I'll lock it when I get home after work, in case there's some more people who need to get stuff of their chest.  I am monitoring in between customers  though and if it does get out of hand, then I'll take action

Billy, I hope you feel better with your ulcer. Maybe breakout some Mike Love TM tapes. :p

Hey, I wanna feel BETTER,  not die lol.

 :lol But you can learn how to fly through TM!

I already can fly....I'm Batman.

That's right billyman! :lol

.

A few things I want to clarify before this thread gets locked.

Firstly, congrats to the people blaming the mods for the state of the board right now. Perhaps this place would be better if we took Andrew’s advice on a board overhaul. You know, the overhaul where he said that all perma-banned members should be let back onto the board? Because I really want to how No Pier Pressure is a “steaming pile of dogshit” again. I really want to see other posters be compared to suicide bombers. I really want to see Debbie KL get harassed in every thread she posts on again. I really want the image of Joe Thomas throwing himself from a high-rise implanted in my mind again. Sarcasm aside, you people are utterly ridiculous. Perhaps it’s the fact that the C50 ended in shambles (to a lot of fans), perhaps it’s the fact that No Pier Pressure was such a divisive album, perhaps it was the slew of Mike Love comments about Brian that got people enraged in the first place over the last few years. Bans had to occur because people were losing their temper. But no, let’s blame it on the mods instead. Unreal…but not surprising in the least.

Secondly. Andrew was banned for writing some very terrible stuff in PMs…whether bullying or potentially libelous information. I know this because (a) I was sent one (b) I’ve heard from two very respected posters about things they were sent regarding Melinda. Heck, RangeRover came out in this very thread and said she got this stuff along these lines. DrBeachBoy you think some posts on this board are libelous? I’d love to see what you think of these PMs then. Anyone who doesn’t believe these allegations (or doesn’t find them damaging enough to warrant a ban) who is also close to Andrew, I suggest you ask Andrew personally if he would be comfortable with these PMs coming out. There’s a reason these were kept “private” in the first place.

Thirdly. This talk about “civility” is repulsive to me in this thread. I suspected that Cincinnati Kid was basing his stance on certain subjects on bad information a couple weeks ago. I gave my two cents about it. Next thing I know Andrew G Doe is taunting me THREE times publicly on the board. He even revived my “goodbye” thread to mock the fact that I came back. And no, I’m not crying or whining about this, just that some of you seem to care so much about this “civility”, yet it’s okay for Andrew to treat people like sh*t even when he’s clearly in the wrong.

Fourth. Some of you are acting like this thread is so incredibly unfair to Andrew because he’s not here to defend himself. Here’s something that’s actually unfair: reading Melinda come under attack in a PM, where she can’t defend herself. This information WAS spread to people, and was Melinda able to defend herself? Was her family when they came under the same attacks? HELL NO! Another thing: some of you in this very thread bitch and whine that OSD and Smile Brian are still apart of this board even though they engage in trollish behavior. You spend a paragraph whining about that, yet nary a word about a NOTED and RESPECTED Beach Boys historian spreading trash about The Wilson family and their friends…no that’s okay, and we need to make a special AGD section, with a referee to make sure he’s telling the truth. You realize how utterly ridiculous that sounds?

Do whatever you want with the thread Billy. But I suggest you and the other mods further detail why this ban took place, because it appears that people here just aren’t getting the severity of this.

THANK you. I'm not able to give detailed responses right now because I'm at work but you nailed it. I'm in a pickle in that I have proof,but I can't post it without breaking confidentiality, so I'm 100% reliant on those affected (whether it was harassment PMs, threats, or libelous gossip) by said PMs to give their side. I could solve this real quick by just posting the forwarded PMs I received, but , again, that would violate confidentiality.
But yeah, you hit it out of the ballpark with your response

Hit the nail on the fuckin head.

Same here (the latter, NOT the former), which put me in a very awkward position as you might guess. Kept quiet because , again, I was told in confidence and I will *not* break that (nor will I ever post specifics, even now).

The thread never should have been started. If one was started by a member asking what happened, all that needed to be said was that Andrew was banned. End of story. Otherwise, +1 to what rab said. Very well put.

I think it had to be started because people out there deserve to know that bad information was sent around regarding Melinda Wilson. Who knows how many people that information was directly spread to (and then subsequently sent to). For the sake of Melinda Wilson's reputation I think it had to be outed that information from Andrew G Doe regarding Melinda may not be factual.

And before anyone asks, yes, it would've been the same if it was Mike or Jackie getting slandered. I've had to step in a few times there, too.

This is a thread full of people doing what AGD was banned for.

Didn't it sort of become public ''info'' as well, in the BW book thread? It got derailed after somebody posted ''insider info'' about what a controlling b*tch Melinda apparently was.

No PM abuse is going on in this thread to my knowledge, nor any slander.

That played a huge part in how we got to this point, yes. And for the record, Cincinnati Kid did not get his info from Andrew, but the person he talked to did...

I'm fine with the ban as long as there is hard evidence of what AGD has been accused of.  The only thing I question is was he ever confronted about this previously?  From what people say this has been going on for a while now.  I think it could have been taken care of before it got out of hand considering this all happened through PMs.  I mean, guitarfool openly accused AGD of the pm issue last year, but I don't have all of the info here.

I don't see why the fact that AGD was uncivil is an excuse to be uncivil in discussing him.

That's actually not what I said, but it got twisted into that. 

No. But some bullying. And bullying about bullying. And bullying moderators to bully bullies.

These allegations are certainly not recent, or at least I gleaned that much from Chuck's OP. If that's the case, why did it take so long for people to come forward with this?

Exactly! And that is what is so wrong with this place. This place is toxic, no doubt about that. We are a bunch of hypocrites, plain & simple.

Needed proof from people willing to come forward.  As far as the slander side of it, I had gotten PMs but didn't know they were also being sent to others as well.  In fact, when a 'person' asked me if I had heard of 'such and such' happening a certain way, I initially played dumb.

As for the PM abuse, well, it did.

You know what the best way to fix that is? For *all* of us (you, me, whomever) to make a concentrated effort to change that, starting with ourselves.

Ah, sorry, I was just going off what I remembered.

Just adding up the results.  It seems that while there is a handful of 'winners' here, today, as a result of what has happened...most of us are losers as a result of what it was which ultimately prompted the site protectorate to make the decision that it did.  And the BIGGEST loser of all?  Andrew.

Sadly...no matter the cause or the reasons for what occurred...it HAD to be done.  Billy...I feel your pain brother.  For the 'winners'...I feel YOUR pain as well.  And Andrew...I feel your pain most of all.

Now this...THIS...is the definitive example of what they call a clusterfuck.  Ultimately everybody loses. :(

I'll miss Andrew for sure. The mods made the right decision, though. Not an easy one, but the right one.

By what we're reading here, apparently GF ws right.

It would seem so. I also agree with whoever said it above that if someone was told something that they now know to be untrue, it might be helpful to say what it was because other people might have been told the same and might still believe it.

The damage most likely has been done. I don't think damage control will mean much after this.

Maybe, maybe not.

+10

Leaving my own personal bias aside, I still don't know what would propel him to engage in this destructive vendetta. I'm oddly fascinated by it. I really am.

A personal attack against a man's family is something far beyond debates over auto tune. And that would apply to Mike's family as well.

Anyone who would engage in such behavior deserves the olde English tar and feather. There's no moral relativism going on here...it's the third rail.

No hypocrisy, just common sense.

Anyone who would want to PM about it, feel free.

My theory is that he managed to piss off someone in Brian's circle and was ousted from it. I can't think of any other reason why someone like him would do this. Maybe it was health issues, and if so, that's really sad. But I guess we may never know.

If that's the case, then one of his friends should confront him on it and help him work through it. As was mentioned, he wasn't like that back in the old Cabinessence board days. Something is off, and he needs to reflect on that.

This is all a bunch of high school level bullshit.  Sigh.

Brian and Melinda are public figures. Under U.S. law, it's basically impossible to libel (slander is spoken so it doesn't apply here) anyone who is a public figure. AGD likely said something out of bounds -- although goodness knows many have speculated about Melinda's motives in the past and an incredibly unflattering story about her appears in the Stebbins FAQ book -- but there shouldn't be a legal question here.

But this is all depressing and beside the point, I suppose.

Cheers, as they say. It's a shame about the gloaters, though no surprise, sadly. Maybe they should just go down to the pub and have a beer and celebrate.

Firstly - great post.
Secondly - to back up your argument - Andrew should have considered 'if you can't do the time, don't do the crime'. 
Thirdly - see the bit in yellow above.  I responded to the suggestions that he  had his own page by saying that we would need someone to make sure he was telling the truth.  I meant it to sound ridiculous because it seems we can't rely on his historical accuracy.  I hope no one took this seriously.  I couldn't imagine anyone would.
Fourthly - I understood from what Charles LePage said that the PM's were private but that there are 2 people privy to them and that the other person had reported them to the administrator - I may be wrong but that seemed logical.

May I also compliment rab2591 on an extremely good and IMO fair post.

AGD is undeniably knowledgeable about the history of the Beach Boys and no doubt his expertise will be missed but just like anyone who seriously breaks the rules, there are consequences so it is hardly fair to suggest that the ban was unreasonable. The action taken seems to have been unavoidable - except by AGD, who didn't make enough of an effort to avoid it.

I would like to add 2 cents, which I hope is from a mature, relatively objective standpoint. I have seen many of AGD's comments and replies over the past few years here. I don't have any particular axe to grind against him by any means, and yes, his factual contribution to BB scholarship and the board content has been substantial, but I found his overall know-it-all, imperious tone, and belittling replies to innocent, albeit mistaken, posts here to be quite insufferable, although I was (and am) quite prepared to accept that he is a decent guy overall (as some British friends have told me.) Being smug  in and of itself certainly doesn't merit a lifetime ban, but there is clearly a side of him that goes hand in hand with his interest in and priceless work for the band, an obvious unmet emotional need that is at least partially fulfilled by being an authority figure (please don't attack me for being an amateur psychologist, I am just common-sensically extrapolating from what I have observed here). I'm sorry that he is not here and able to respond, but this affects all of us and we should feel OK about expressing our opinions about the issue as long as it's not gratuitously insulting to him.

I would never have thought that he would engage in abusing his power via PM to attack Melinda or others that he apparently bears grudges against, or even just aggressively perpetuate scurrilous information, if that's all it amounts to, but I can see how that kind of behavior could conceivably go hand in hand with his obvious desire to and obsession with always being the ultimate insider. Whether any of his sentiments and negativity was deserved or not, that is unacceptable behavior, as is harassing newcomers here in any way, and so, regardless of his valuable historical contributions here, IMO the ban is warranted. :(

It seems that Andrew does indeed deserve the ban, based on what has been laid out by the mods and others.  I won't argue with that decision.

However, I do want to comment on the general snarkiness of some folks on message boards in general, not just this one.  Back in the "old days" of newspapers, if one wanted to submit a "letter to the editor" and have it printed, you needed to sign your actual name to the letter.  You couldn't just anonymously state your opinion, you needed to be accountable by putting your name to the letter.  However, the internet allows people to post whatever crap they want, without (at least most) people knowing who you actually are.  A lot of this went on in the Rocky thread, for example, and I was right there, posting crap, but at least my identity is out there. 

Maybe, before we post stuff that is borderline "bullying", we should imagine that the person to whom we are directing the post is in the same room with us. 

bgas - I'm trying to look at both sides of the coin and I believe it is important to give "the devil his due." (Yes, Andrew, I am using quotation marks!)  :quote

Charles was truly honorable in being balanced, while sharing the story of Andrew having his back, and that he would always appreciate the gesture.  Lord knows, I have gone the "ten rounds" with Andrew.  But, notwithstanding his sometimes cantankerous ways (which he relatively is still too young for) I truly respect his scholarship. 

But, as you mention, bgas, and I think wisely so, it is the PM function which has been been the most problematic.  And, I think it is important, still to make the "punishment fit the crime." You are also correct, in that "a mind is a terrible thing to waste." I try to look beyond the vitriol, directly to the facts and what he brings to this table.

It still boggles my mind to think that my "Beach Boys" (including any and all) have been faction-ized not unlike the political parties with which we align ourselves.  It would have been unthinkable to not think of them as one band, in the 60's, going along the same road, taking the off-ramp occasionally but getting back on the same road, as they did during C50.       

Having a forum to discuss this greatest of music is a privilege, not a right. I thank Charles as host and the mods who have to field all kinds of stuff, giving of their time and expertise. 

Perhaps, after some time passes, and the dust settles, Andrew could be permitted to return without the PM function.  Bgas - this, I think was the smartest suggestion I had read in the thread, because the PM was the largest problem, and I think it would have been a better "fit" for the crime.  Thanks, for looking at things in that way.  ;) 

It's most encouraging to see this avenue being pursued, whether or not anything ever comes of it.   

Where did you get that info on libel?  This is what I found, "In United States law, public figure is a term applied in the context of defamation actions (libel and slander) as well as invasion of privacy. A public figure (such as a politician, celebrity, or business leader) cannot base a lawsuit on incorrect harmful statements unless there is proof that the writer or publisher acted with actual malice (knowledge of falsity or reckless disregard for the truth).[1] The burden of proof in defamation actions is higher in the case of a public figure."  

I agree wholeheartedly that all of this is very depressing.  It is obvious in the posts by Mr. LePage and the mods that this was a painful thing for them to address, that they considered Andrew a friend, and they did what they believed that they had to do.  I haven't seen any of the referenced pm's, but this wouldn't be a light-hearted decision for anyone.  I too, personally enjoyed chats with Andrew on FB about the English ancient sites and countryside.  I certainly wish no ill will on him, but I'm not going to second-guess a clearly difficult decision when I lack the full accounting of what happened.  

I feel fairly certain that I don't want a full accounting, since it was indicated that Melinda and her children were attacked and it's something that I know that I'd never want to read. This doesn't just apply to the Wilsons, either.  Some of you know that I have defended Harriet Johnston and her family here as well.  Legalities aside, it's just cruel and inappropriate.  These are real humans, after all.  With that said, I suspect there isn't one among us who hasn't regretted repeating gossip that we later learned was untrue.  I think the only thing to do at that point is to correct what was said and defend the person, as Emily suggested earlier. 

I want to clarify my position too.

Banning AGD is probably for the best. (I even think it's probably good for him too) But I would like to have seen him given a chance to publicly respond. Maybe he was and refused. I dunno.

But since he was using his position in order to tell lies and manipulate people's views, that is a pretty shitty thing to do, and ultimately he deserved to be cut off, banished, and excommunicated from the Church Of The Smiley-Smileers.

Five thumbs up for this masterpiece of logic from one(me) who was the recipient of one of his well crafted, classless, arrogant, pugnacious PMs.  :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup

DebbieKL - Wirestone, I think, is looking the general difference between "media and non-media" or "private and public" defendants or plaintiffs.  What you found looks correct, but it can be taken a step further.  The court would evaluate and determine the status. Wirestone is correct that it is a high bar to reach and sometimes the goalpost gets moved by the court.  And, that they (Brian and Melinda) are public figures.  

Sometimes for "purposes of a particular controversy" a person (private citizen and non-celebrity) can be considered a "public figure," when otherwise, they might not be.  So, for an example could be an "activist" who has been a "private figure," could become a "public figure" for the purposes of the controversy.  It is correct that it is connected to privacy/intrusion of seclusion.    

Because it was a PM, I don't know what was written.  Yes, they are all real humans, I agree.     ;)

A few things I want to clarify from my previous post.

- I inadvertently made it sound like I got a libelous/nasty PM from Andrew G. Doe...which is not the case. What I got was a message that had false information in it. I don't know whether Doe's sources are the ones giving him bad intel or what. But regardless, I wanted to clarify that. Doe was nothing but cordial to me in PMs. But his intel in that instance (relating to Melinda and her story) was indeed wrong.

- Angua, apologies for misunderstanding you. With all the ridiculous bullshit that takes place here, your sarcasm sounded like something that could've been said seriously by a handful of other members. Sorry again!

I think the mods should be commended for making the tough call despite it being unpopular with some.

Yes.

I still say, since it was private and the person it was sent to was not threatened in any way, then it should have been taken care of privately. Mike Love and his wife have had some very nasty stuff written on this board and less severe action was taken. While I do not condone spreading false and incorrect information, it just seems that the punishment was harsher for a PM than an actual board infraction of the same type. That stuff was put out there for any and all to see.

OSD was villified for what he said and did get banned for awhile.  It is worth noting, OSD didn't develop a rep for sending threatening msgs to people with whom he disagreed.

Just sayin'.

I don't know any of that. I only know what Chuck & Rab have posted and it is not what you are saying. The lifetime ban was for writing the same type of stuff that OSD wrote and he went full public with his statements. At least Andrew shared his views or information privately.

2drbeachboy: I usually agree with you but not in this case. Secretly telling bad stuff about someone while being all nice in public is cowardly imo.

Word.

Like him or not, OSD was always upfront about his biases, but he was never two-faced about his beliefs.

Apples and oranges.  Mike is bashed for his own words and actions.  No one is making things up about Mike and no one is posting information that was supposed to be private.  The allegation against AGD is that he spread false information and information that sounds like it was quite private.  Both instances have nasty in common, but then the similarities end.  AGD has publicly been nasty on this board for years and has not suffered the consequences to the same degree others have.  I am not presently objecting to this prior inequality, but to compare the nastiness of, say, OSD to what it is alleged that ADG did is completely unfair and reeks of bias on the part of everyone here making this absurd comparison.  Go and re-read the initial post, setting aside your bias, and you will see clearly there is no comparison.

The punishment seems harsh?  So you agree that the punishment should fit the crime.  But we are all largely ignorant of the crime.  How then do you conclude that the punishment was too harsh?  To draw this conclusion is nothing less than to accuse the three mods and board admin of either being inept or of lying.

Regarding handling the matter privately, three mods and the board admin (who almost never makes an appearance here, yet he found this particular situation warranted a statement) felt strongly enough to make the ban public.  This tells me that either all four people are complete fools or the infractions are serious enough to warrant this kind of action.  Consider this action was predicated upon full agreement between four people, at least two claiming friendship with AGD, and yet this is the course of action they chose.  They all surely realize the implications of their actions and chose to do it this way anyway.  On the other hand we who know almost nothing about what occurred suppose to know better how this should have been handled?  I understand we are all permitted to have an opinion but an opinion from complete ignorance fails to persuade me.

In addition, AGD has been given special treatment for at least as long as I have been a member of this board.  Perhaps this warrants special consideration in the manner of his ban.  With great power, as they say, comes great responsibility.  If you take the mods (and admin) decision and words at face value, AGD has abused this power for a long, long time.  That being the case a public ban does not seem out of line.  Until we have more details, and I doubt we ever will, I accept the unified voice of the mods/admin as an accurate representation of what occurred (over the better part of a decade no less) and that it warranted a public ban.  We may have questions and we may choose to ask them publicly, but to suppose from ignorance that it should have been handled differently or that the punishment was too harsh is the height of hubris.

EoL

It was that *and* the PM harassment issue; it wasn't just the one thing.


Correct.

Thank you...did a better job of summing it up than I did.

No apology necessary - I just don't want everyone to think I'm that stupid! :-)

First off, you can't much harsher than a lifetime ban. I know what OSD did and that bordered on or could have been a lifetime ban. As I see it, something done in private like this is different than posting publicly. Posting the Jacqueline stuff in public is far worse than if he sent it privately. Again, in both cases what was said was wrong, but I am seeing this more about how the information was disseminated. Let me see if I got this right; something bad is said about Mike Love & family, then a finite ban. If it is about Brian Wilson & family, then an infinite ban. Is that about right?

One problem with this conversation is that most of us don't really know the details of what happened - so it's a matter of trusting the mods and Charles LePage, or not.

Having said that, I don't know what OSD has said about Mike Love's wife. I didn't see it. But, I think there's a real difference between making a concerted effort to lead people to believe something that you know isn't true and 'saying something bad' about someone.

So if Andrew Doe did the former, which is my understanding, that's not comparable to the latter. Or, if it is compared, it suffers from the comparison.

So I don't quite agree with EoL - it's not apples and oranges - it's an over-ripe kind of icky orange vs. a toxic bacteria-ridden orange.

I'm not necessarily saying that is the difference, but it's the difference between my understanding of what Andrew is alleged to have done and my understanding of what OSD is alleged to have done. If my understanding is wrong, then my analogy may not apply.

I have been harping on this stuff for years in here. Stay out of the Beach Boys personal lives. Had this been heeded, then none of this would have taken place with AGD now or earlier with OSD.

With OSD, it was his first suspension (and it lasted for about a year). With Andrew, it was his 3rd. And again, it was also the other PMs he was sending, which resulted in at least two people either asking me to delete their account or just not posting ever again.

The thing is that I doubt anyone would believe anything OSD could say about Mike's personal life, in the case of AGD he was using his credibility to fool new members with baseless information presented as insider info, and several took the bait either from AGD, or people who had gotten that information from AGD, as can be seen in the BW book thread.

Maybe, to those of us who know his antics, but it wasn't just about Mike. It was about his wife and daughter.

Which is why he was suspended as long as he was for a first time offense  (which was normally 7 days- we have since moved away from the 3 strike system). He has not done it again, but if he had, it would be permanent. You might have forgotten, but I went pretty ballistic at that point.

But still would anyone believe it? OSD is not just notorious here, go over to any Mike Love video on YouTube, and you're bound to find a comment by him there, usually with someone dismissing him as a troll. Anybody can tell that OSD has a strong hatred about Mike, so anything he says about him or his family can be easily dismissed but, according to Charles, AGD was posting false and harmful info about Melinda and her children, but he had the appearance of trustworthiness due to his extensive BBs knowledge.

I know OSD is looked upon as a dumb oaf in here, but let me tell you, he knows his sh*t and he knows exactly what he is doing. He's dumb as a fox, as the saying goes. As I keep trying to tell people, I agree that what he is accused of is wrong. I am not denying that. My beef is with "does the punishment fit the crime?" Strikes trump the actual offense here, as I understand it. So, the lifetime ban is due to Strike 3 Called and not what he is being accused of. OSD did a similar thing, only publicly and received a lesser sentence because he was 0-1 at the plate at the time of his postings.

You understand incorrectly. The OSD incident was a few years ago; things have changed since then (and the rules have been updated as of Dec of last year) . Heck, I'm the only mod still around from back then! I guarantee you things would've been different if it happened now. I know that may not mean much coming from me apparently, but it's the truth.

I wonder if OSD/AGD's punishments had been reversed....would we still be having this same conversation?

Billy, I am looking at this Mod decision as a group thing. I am not calling out any one person. Honestly, I would have no issues with banning OSD. He rarely adds to any thread in here, but derails quite a few. I make no bones about my dislike of what he does and/or adds to this place. And I do believe you when you say things would have been handled differently had it happened since the rules changed. Just so I am straight on this; you are telling me that if AGD had zero or only one strike against him, then he would have received a finite ban, instead of a lifetime ban?

No, because OSD is not respected and revered as AGD was/is.

Oh, so status makes a difference too. The old Preferential Treatment banning. I got it!

OSD's only target is Mike Love, not bullying other members like AGD did on trivia and band opinions.

I'm saying that we wouldn't be talking about it, of even have a thread about it if it were OSD, because OSD isn't known as an "elder" who's been involved in the BB's community for 40+ years.

No, they both would've gotten lifetimes.

And it's hard for me *not* to take it personally; I feel like I'm being attacked, and that I could walk on water right this minute and still get crap. I'm this close to saying the hell with this board.

For the record, I approached GF and lowbacca about this, and after the 3 of us talking, I approached Chuck for a second opinion. We were all in agreement, but I had done the initial groundwork. So now that *that* is out there...everybody still feel the same way?

Besides, OSD is often looked at as a troll anyway.

Gotcha, and so true.

Just like if Ian, or c-man, or Jon Stebbins were banned. People would get their panties in a twist simply because they are "known names" in the bb's world.

I will tell you why from my perspective. He is one of a handful of people here that when he posts, it has meaning to the thread. Usually, no horseshitting around. You can depend on getting a meaningful answer from him. There will be no one here on a regular basis to provide that function. That is a very big deal to me and should be a very big deal to the board. From all my years on the net, this is the only place that HAD a resident historian to draw from.

Don't feel attacked. You keep saying that the four of you made the final decision together. On the whole, I don't like what was done, but I also understand that you guys have a job to do.

Please don't do that. I don't know who's attacking you----if anyone is, they are in the tiniest of minorities.

And that is why this bothers and hurts me so bad, aside from us being friends. That is why this was so disappointing and painful for me. I didn't want it to have to come to this. But it did, and what's done is done.

Okay, so I read this entire thread. People are alleging bullying and threatening, but nobody has given an example. Certainly someone would have something verbatim to back that up.

Seems to me that from recent conversations with AGD, his general knowledge of the Beach Boys, and just overall common sense, he knows that so much as scratching your butt sideways when it comes to *anything* to do with the Beach Boys will get you a letter from an attorney. I'm curious as to what exactly was said.

Frankly, I'm surprised he even was on this board recently given his disgust with people's attitudes and questioning his proven knowledge.

To be quite truthful, he has told me in confidence some pretty damning things about certain individuals within the Beach Boys' "camp" (and, to be fair, some pretty redeeming things as well); but there's something that I can say about that: everything he has ever told me has also been told to me by others who have even stronger connections than he does. So either he's not "spreading lies," or somehow he conspired with a couple dozen people to back him up on the "lies."

I have everything, from the complaints from other members, to the PMs, you name it. I have screenshots too. Am I going to post it here? Heck no...if you had filed a complaint with a mod and asked something to stay confidential, wouldn't it be prudent NOT to out someone like that? Conversely, if you had gotten in trouble over something said in confidence, would you want said contents published? I would imagine not.  So no, I will not be posting anything verbatim for several reasons.


Can only speak for what I myself received (directly and indirectly) , but I followed through on some investigating on my own on one of the things referenced, and have proof that the said allegation was not true. That is one. I left it alone, but several other members here got the same PM.

Like the majority here, I've never had a single ban. To have 2 strikes, yet continue to throw caution to the wind was only going to end this way.

You live by the sword, you die by the sword.

Sad result, but supported 100%.

Man, I really don't get your angle here.  Say for instance that all of the revelations of this thread came out, but AGD was considered too great an asset to lose, and was allowed to stay.  Do you not see that he'd be damaged goods from hereon in?  How his version of history would be called into question?  How his "meaningful answers" and "no horseshitting around" might be somewhat undermined by the revelation that he's been spreading lies for, we're told, the better part of a decade?  Do you not see that every time that he might attempt to settle a dispute from now on by invoking some sort of confidential insider source, his credibility would be called into question?  (Hell, I think we should be going back to look at some of the older threads he's weighed into in that way, and checking that we got to the right conclusions.)

If you are bemoaning the loss of an important historian, then please realise that the actions under discussion are not the actions of a historian.  They are the actions of a liar...  or else, charitably, the acts of someone who isn't checking the information that he's receiving from third parties.  I leave it to you to decide whether AGD was the sort of person who checked facts or not.

That's pretty much what I meant, Debbie. And this is a real side discussion, but the point is that "actual malice" is quite difficult to prove because it involves knowing someone's state of mind, which is basically impossible. As a result, there are very few libel lawsuits in the U.S. from famous people -- as distinguished from the U.K. So yes, you could definitely libel a famous person in the United States, but unless they're able to prove you're out to get them, there's little legally to stop you. Or you could just claim it was parody (this is what "The People vs. Larry Flynt" was about).

But the SS board is a privately owned space, and Chuck has the absolute right to decide what appears here. And involving BW and Melinda's kids -- if that's indeed what happened -- really goes beyond the pale. No way that they're public figures.

Certainly an historian shown to deliberately lie about his subject has sacrificed his reputation.

I do: lock it. The topic served its purpose in that the info that can be shared has been. Everyone has vented for days, and we're mostly left with the same old nonsense repetitions. Who's meaner? Who's trollier (tm)? What about that one time when such-and-such happened? Remember, I said blah blah blah. Not important. Move on.

I'm good Billy.  What was done was what needed to be done.  You guys nailed it and I'm behind you for it.   That said...I'm not glad that it happened.  But to let it go would have been worse.  F A R worse.  I still maintain that Andrew needs some help here.  Something is obviously wrong.  All his 'maneuvering' can't undo all of the good he did along the way...but it doesn't augment it either.  It was wrong.  100% wrong.  I'm sure, though, that he didn't do it for the 'fun' of it

I will remain his friend.

I only wish that he could come back to explain his actions or apologize.  Not that he would want to, but with this it's kind of left hanging in the wind.

I am indeed going to lock it. If the other mods have something additional to say, it can be unlocked then..

edit

actually will open it back up for  a few hours...lock it either when I get home or I go on break..

LuHv to hear people talking smack especially when they don't know what the hell they're saying.  Perhaps a little research on this very board would enlighten you. When I got banned, quite a few kind souls here were nice enough to ask the mods to unban me. Eventually, they did. People threw me a "welcome back OSD party which took up a few pages. I was genuinely humbled by the response. There was even a Part Two.

Why was I banned? Because I issued an unsavory comment about myKe luHv surrounded by a bunch of women all of whom I had never seen before! I had no idea who they were but nonetheless, the hammer came down before I could right a terribly wrong post.

As far as not being an "elder", once again,  I have been a fan since the beginning, which is longer than the Doester. I've had the privilege of doing things with the ORIGINAL group and even after that that I could never imagine. Let's just say I was in the right place at the right time, or just plain lucky.

I could care less if you love AGD and hate me. It's water off a duck's back, but get your facts straight.

I mean he doesn't call himself ''old'' surferdude for nothing, LuHv him or not, he is definitely an ''elder''.

Three years ago I was the victim of a similar smear PM campaign by Doe. One day I started to get PMs from people telling me that had received a PM by Doe, unsolicited,  containing untrue derogatory info about me. Doe had apparently conducted, and shared, a detailed background investigation on me. Adding his own fabricated derogatory details. Sound familiar?

Add that to his nasty PM attacks on new members, this latest PM smear, and a bunch of stuff we are not privy to and you have strike 3, 4, 5 and 6.

We still have Doe's researcher on the board, C-man. So as far as I am concerned, it's a win win!

 >:D
 Did you loan Brian your pencil so he could play the snare on "Surfin"? Did Mike steal your first girlfriend?  :lol  >:D

Way back WHHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEN some loud braggart named Mike put OSD down and said his school was great!

What is your version then of what is the truth versus what is not? Considering you most likely wouldn't know what was actually said, it would be difficult to make a public call either way on fact versus fiction, yet that's what you seem to be doing based on whatever damning things were told to you in confidence. If you know something that was said relative to all of this, which you know is the truth, what is it?

For a Mod, you sure are confrontational. I thought you guys were locking this thread?

I gave examples. I can give more but what's the point? Charles and Billy have spelled it out quite clearly!

And how do you know that these "damming things" are even true? Your post is more validation of why he has been banned! And shouldn't such an "esteemed historian and author" not be spreading malicious gossip?

I locked it, but reopened it for another 24 hours...probably the *last* 24 hours. When I locked it earlier, I had no idea ORR was in the middle of a response! (sorry about that...). I think by tomorrow night, everyone who needed to have their say (on both sides) will have done so.

.

I actually meant ORR, not OSD. Acronyms give me hives.

Now, I got those  PMs too, the ones ORR was talking about, about him. So, are you calling *me* a liar? It's not he said/she said.

I myself have no interest in the evidence upside-down SMiLE! has. No offense to him, but I'm not exactly an outsider here.

Look everybody! An AGD wannabe. Spoken in true Doeophonic pattern.  >:D

Hey, you have your wanna be in Smile Brian. Fair is fair. ;)

I have tossed and turned for a while now about whether or not I should comment on the topic in this thread. I have a lot to say about it all but simply cannot put what I want to say in words. I really wish circumstances were different but they are not and it is that for which I am most saddened. I have no understanding of why this has transpired nor knowledge of the context or contents contained in the PM's other than what has been discussed in the open forum and from the odd present and past contributor to this board asking for my opinion on certain things.  I will say however that the mod's have done the right thing without question and I say this having supported AGD many, many times. I cannot with this. I hope that we can all move on from the speculative nature of the relationship dynamic. I think that you would be amazed that for such a complex and talented individual that Brian is he leads a very simplified and normal life. Even more so on the road whilst touring.

Well said, in all respects.

Vindication! Thanks Billy!!!

Sadly, I lost some Board friends who believed that crap.

Even worse, I believed it too about you. I know I apologized privately, but now I'm doing it publicly.

This is such a mess.

Thank you Billy!

I never heard it, and I never believed it!

I was kidding. It sounds awful though.

I was here 3 years ago, and I don't remember hearing anything negative about you, ORR. Does it have anything to do with that brief period of you being banned?

Glad you're back, though. :)

Well, we've got another person confirming AGD was a big mouth.  How many people did the man blab to?  And how many people thought they were special receiving the dirt?  Whether the information was true or false that is not cool.

Thankfully Billy, when he realized it was a widespread problem, did something about it AND owned up to his mistake publicly.  Not many people would do that.

EoL

Can anyone tell me if WHAM is reforming and opening up for the Beach Boys during the 2016 Summer Tour??

Having George and Andrew posting on this board, and answering questions about their music would be groovy!!

Just be sure to "Wake Me Up, Before you Go - Go"!!!



Dogbone

I've read all the comments, debated myself about posting or not. I don't know AGD well, just from this board and facebook. He was one of the people that alerted me to the whole Denni Leann fiasco - and I didn't know that person well, either, just someone I would chat with occasionally on facebook. That whole episode was a shocker that my mind is still trying to make sense out of, it was just so freaking weird! I never saw AGD bash any members of the Beach Boys, their family or friends. Not saying what is alleged here never happened, but I never saw that side of the man. And I do wonder if what he said to others on the board here was any worse than some of the stuff that is officially in print (Beach Boys FAQ comes to mind). There has been so much rumour and speculation surrounding our favorite group for so many years...decades, it can be hard to tell what is true and what is not.

This.

If someone started spamming board members that you beat your kids, your wife was an alcoholic, or any other vile thing that can be made up, just for the sake of spite, what would you think then? Edit: I have no idea what was PMd about the Wilson family. My post is hypothetical.

It's against the law for starters. As to the perpetrators status on the Board, his reputation matters not. The Board administration has a standard of ethics on which they oversee membership.

edit...misunderstood

The voices of reason. Lock it before there are more unnecessary misunderstandings.

Sounds like the mods are being brave here, and I feel like supporting them for it. 

I'm totally bummed to hear that AGD has received a lifetime ban.

Mods, was he given a chance to respond to the allegations?

And it's way too early to consider locking this thread. It's only been going on for a couple of days so far. I just found out about the ban and haven't even had the chance to read most of the posts.

But you can read the locked threads.

Heh...so AGD is getting badmouthed for "blabbing" now. Yet Bob Hanes is an angel??? Geez...he was the king of telling people "secrets" and people finding out that he pretty much told everybody. (Gawd, I miss that guy, though...I wish he could have been here to see The Smile Sessions...)

I have been very vocal about objecting to the "Wifeandmanagers"  and "Me-Landy" labels that several members here continue to use as an insult to Melinda and to imply Landy-like manipulation. I'm not an insider, and I don't know any of these people personally, but I find it insulting and borderline slanderous to compare the man's wife to someone who abused, manipulated and almost killed him, and I've said so in several threads.

Several times I've gotten PM's from Andrew telling me how wrong I was about Melinda. Terse. Not particularly bullying., but definitely in the "I know stuff you don't" category.   I'm wise enough to know not to engage in that kind of bait, so I ignored the PM's; but I have no doubt that, had I responded, I would have gotten the AGD version of just how vile Melinda is. As a result, I don't have any difficulty believing that things could have gotten out of hand with other board members.

It's too bad. I often disagreed with AGD's anti-Melinda agenda and his Mike Love pushing, but he was quick to call BS on some areas that needed it: the Loren and Rocky threads come to mind, in particular.

I won't miss his condescending attitude. But, I will miss his actual (not agenda fueled) knowledge.

.

Based on what has been posted in this thread, what was the truth you're hinting at versus what were the lies?

There have also been posters who have received private messages and as a result did not feel comfortable posting here again, and no longer do as a result. It is a shame that the private message system has been used in such a detrimental way, or in a way to personally attack or intimidate people, or spread lies and gossip, instead of being used as a tool to reach out and communicate with other members on a personal level rather than on the board.

Some good friendships have been formed, and some good contacts have been made. It is unfortunate that some used it instead to destroy people and reputations, and do so under the banner of privacy so no one would know of the abuses if they did happen.

There is no way to know how many members have received private messages in the past that were either offensive, unwelcome, or designed to spread lies or gossip about others, unless or until more members who received them come forward to report them.

I have debated whether to post in this thread or not...

For those of you that are newer members, an introduction may first be in order...  I am the former editor and publisher of Endless Summer Quarterly, and I've been a Beach Boys fan and collector for around 45 years. I would put my Beach Boys collection in the top 10 in the U.S., only behind some of the uber-collectors like Bgas, Jim, Panayiotis, and a couple more.  I handed over the editorial reigns of ESQ to David Beard around 15 years ago, when my professional and family priorities caused me not to have sufficient time to dedicate to the magazine, however in full disclosure I still maintain a financial interest in ESQ as a silent partner.  Although I've been a member of this board from the very start, I've kept a rather quiet persona around here, preferring to post mainly in the threads that deal objectively with the band's history and music.

I consider AGD a colleague in the quest to uncover as much factual information about the Beach Boys as possible.  I've learned more from him than just about anyone else on this board (perhaps c-man excepted).  I'll admit that I've been peeved at him occasionally for one of his smarmy public admonitions when I've gotten my facts incorrect, however I've gotten just as many PM's offering me the opportunity to correct myself before he posted anything.  I've just looked through my dozens of PM's from him, and I don't have a single one that could be considered "gossipy" or defamatory toward any individual on or outside this message board.  I don't dispute the reports by others that that he did; I am only speaking from my personal experience.  Andrew knew that I had no interest in that type of discussion.

I've always tried to maintain a neutral stance toward the Beach Boys.  I am a Brian fan first, but I don't hate the touring band.  I think they serve a purpose in continuing to deliver the Beach Boys' music to the masses.  But I've watched as this board has appeared to degenerate into a battle of the BW versus BB camps, with, in my opinion as a third-party observer, negative posts directed at Mike going seemingly unpunished and those threads allowed to flourish, while threads that are even slightly critical of Brian are steered in a direction that will cause them to go away.

AGD's permanent ban from this board is a MAJOR loss that further takes this board away from being a source of historical information, to being a forum for personal sparring and negativity.  This will be my last post on this board, as I try to find another place where the emphasis is on scholarly discussion of the band's music.  And if that place doesn't exist, I may have to create it...

Lee Dempsey

Couldn't agree more. 

We've lost another one. *sigh*

I'm incredibly sorry to see you go, Lee.

Yup.

Wasn't this actually AGDs 4th ban?

Why do you think it's ok for the rules to be do bent for this guy? Have you considered - what if the allegations are correct they are) - would you still keep him here? Even aside from the PMs, he was an asshole. Constantly insulting others and going off on anyone about the tiniest  factual inaccuracy. He was the most toxic person on this board and I'm glad to see him go.

Give it some time. I think the board will turn back into another golden era. It all happens in cycles after all.

Sorry for anyone who disagrees with me. Agd was the only person on this board I dislked...everyone else is genuinely cool.

Well said Woodstock and very true. I've heard it was more than 4 bans but whatever it is, he's gone thankfully. It's all well and good to have to have facts and figures but when that person has a universe sized chip on his shoulder for anyone who steps out of HIS line of thinking, then it's not gonna turn out well. Those who are crying in their beer, I wouldn't put it past the anointed one to create his own board, be the CEO (he always wanted to be) and soul moderator. For the agdster, it's all about the power.  ::)

Seems to me and again this is strictly my opinion from what I've seen go on in here, but for the most part he treated people as they treated him. Sure, he gave a lot of sh*t, but he took a lot too. I didn't agree with everything that he said and often argued about them, but I did so respectfully and he reciprocated. That seems to be lost on some people around here. Like Lee, I received PM's from Andrew and never once did I receive anything like what he is accused of sending. As far as I am concerned, his positives outweighed his negatives, but that's just me and I am apparently not alone in feeling that way.

.

Although this doesn't really surprise me, Lee, you will be so missed. One more gracious poster to make their exit...

Actually, you're right, sort of...one was reversed shortly after because I had misread his original post initially.

Creating a message board is easy.  Moderating it is much harder, especially with the volume of people and messages on this board.  Now, if someone were to start a message board with very little activity, then the moderating would be fairly effortless, depending on what off topic messages and activity was allowed.

It's not the fact he said anything, it's what he said. Some of which turned out not only to be false, but would definitely result in a defamation suit if made public. Now, to play devil's advocate, it could be that he was getting bad information from somebody with an axe to grind (and in one specific case, I know for a fact he was intentionally given bad info).  Again, you may feel differently if you had known specifics, but I hope you can respect why I cannot go into specific details publicly, and why I will not.

For the most parts, yeah. It was the other times that became the problem.

I am very sorry to see you go. I can definitely understand and respect your decision, and can relate to it. I've considered the same thing several times over the past year, but decided against it. I hope one day you do reconsider.

Billy, the biggest issue is that we are all here for different reasons. Some are here to learn and some are here to gossip. If the scholars and historians leave, then we ain't gonna be doin' much learin'. If what AGD did is considered bad, just wait until the gossipers are ruling the board.

I had also received a similarly toned PM from Andrew after I had made comments defending David Leaf's and Domenic Priore's work. Like Cyncie, I kept my temper in check. Had I been in a different mood, it very easily could have escalated into a full out flame war.

Couldn't agree more - though we're talking about a handful of people only. Look at the way AGD's last thread was almost derailed.

Have the explanations given in detail by both Billy and Charles not been enough? One of the issues has been that the gossip and gossipers were in fact ruling the board and doing so in a way that would be hidden unless someone reported what they received. How does the line blur between history and scholarship and veer off into negative comments about personal lives and marriage, and that is just what has been reported publicly in this thread. Is there a justification for challenging things like marriage and family related to the band, or for spreading gossip about other board members' personal lives if the goal is or was history and scholarship?

Same here, Lee. Sorry to see you go, but I understand why.

Look, you and I will never agree on anything. I just find it amazing that the folks who have the most public issues with AGD are the ones who received these PM's. I find it quite strange that he wouldn't have shared those findings with the people who are backing him now and also received PM's that did not include said gossip. Since nothing has been shared, I will not state that it did not happen, because I only know what has been stated here, but I have my doubts based on my own dealings with him. I also know about the public stuff that goes on here where nary a word is said about it. This place teeters on libel constantly. Hell, when this first popped up on the board, you were the first person who came to mind. I figured you dug up the dirt to get him banned. It is no secret that you two had your issues. Honestly, I'd like to know just how old these PM's are.

Again, you do not read what has been described and detailed and instead take shots at me. Since you don't know what was or wasn't involved, why do you continue to make assumptions and post things you have no clue about?

There were PM's reported in the past year that involved board members who were new sign-ups, relatively new members, and members who had no personal issues or disputes to speak of. And in at least one case that was reported, a board member who received one of the PM's felt uncomfortable enough to leave and no longer participate because of it. There were also PM's that got into personal issues involving other board members - NOT public figures or band associates - which had no place on this or any other fan forum.

Those are the facts.

You find it surprising? It's called vindictive behavior. DrBB, we get your opinion! You refuse to believe and accept. Now you are accusing Mods of digging this stuff up? My, my.  

Record stuck in a scratch.....

Yes, sadly, Prince has been found dead...

No pot shots being taken, it is an honest assessment of how I feel about you. You come off as a know it all and act like a dictator as a Mod. We can take this to email if you want. I will not use the PM function in this place.

I don't know if GF got these or not, but please understand...*I* saw them with my own eyes. If it was one reported to me, I insisted on screen shots. I did indeed get several. Not old. I normally don't share private mod discussions publicly, but I will do so this one time...I am the one who handled this, with the support of the admins. I insisted that I would not take any action until there were three (3) different people reporting them. *


As for the other PMs, same thing. Now, I got those myself as well, but never said anything because I kept things in confidence. Now, I will *never* divulge their contents publicly, but I will say that I know for a fact others have been told the same things, because they told me (and again I got screenshots). So, I'm glad that you are not questioning the fact that these PMs exist, because it wouldn't be Guitarfool's integrity you'd be questioning, it'd be  mine.

* edit- 3 different board members, not moderators!

Your assessment posted publicly about how everything unfolded was completely wrong in this case, and if there are any doubts then consider that what was said in the comment I'm quoting here is exactly, 100% true as written. And consider that before posting comments that are simply not accurate or true, no matter how strongly you believe them.

I agree with guitarfool (Post No. 269) And Mr. Dempsey, instead of leaving you could improve this place by posting what you know. Seems like Mr. Doe is mother who left the house and everybody is kids who can't take responsibility on their shoulders. C'mon, folks.

Hmmm. Just occurred to me that at least one of those people who received one of THE emails has a habit of sending his/her own to people he disagrees with. No nasty gossip, just a desperate attempt to be smart-mouthed. Like I said earlier, I just presumed the guy is a dick and let it be

This is sad to hear.

If you don't mind me asking, how bad? If it's out of hand, let's talk about this privately.

I agree. Let's make this a better place...by making this a better place.

I did no such thing. I had no idea how it all went down until Billy just explained it. But you know how one thinks in their head when they first read something that is shocking? Well, when Chuck posted the ban, the first person who popped in my head was you. Sorry, to think like that, but seeing all of the things that have gone on in this place since you became a Mod, convinced me that you might do something like that. Maybe I have you pegged all wrong, and honestly I hope I am completely wrong,  but that is how you come off when I read what you post.

Then that was my failing.  I should've been clearer initially

Billy explained it in the post yesterday, yet you still went public with your comments and cast doubt on my actions. If I said you were completely wrong, and that your 'dictator' comment can be disproven by simply asking another mod about it instead of making assertions against me that are as strong as that one, would it make a difference?

This is how lies and spreading info which is untrue about people - no matter who they are, public or private - can affect them personally. If I'm the dictator here that apparently some have been saying I am, ask the other mods for proof of it. If there is no proof, then consider the sources of those lies.

Every decision made is made with the full support of each of us mods. That's been the way it works since the board's inception. The faces may have changed, but we don't make major decisions on the fly like that. Also, none of us is going to just do something for the hell of it against the others' wishes. We are a team.

Let me tell you something, I can think any way I like. It is how I see you. I never said anyone else does and I also stated that I hope I am wrong in my assessment. We talked (PM'd) about this in the past about how you come off when I read your posts. This should come as no surprise. I just haven't seen any change. The dictator comment is an overall assessment, not just this one thing. At first I just thought you were feeling your way around being a Mod, and maybe you still are. I would have taken this to email and did this privately, but you decided to respond back to me in here.

No, you should not post something about me or anyone based on lies or misinformation because it's your right to think that way. In this case, a fellow mod just explained it yet again, which means whatever you're thinking and then posting is simply not the way things are, nor were they ever that way. It's simply not the truth. There are no dictators, there are no rogue moderators who make decisions and do things on their own. That is the truth.

No, not out of hand. Had it been, I would've contacted you. I just ignored it.

Oh, and that should have come with a thanks, Billy. I appreciate it.

Billy, I thought a lot of the Melinda talk was happening during and right after C50. That was over 3 plus years ago. I am amazed that after all of the discussions that happened then, and with of the postings by Ray that that line of questioning would have died a long time ago. This was why I was asking for the age of the PM's. It is hard to fathom that this talk has still been going on recently.

Hey, then ban me.

The truth is the truth whether you want to accept it or not. After having it explained multiple times by other moderators, a reply like this is not only uncalled for but totally out of line. It's too bad you can't accept the truth and choose instead to believe whatever lies you want to believe.

The ones with me stopped, but not with others. That's why the thing with newer members came up.  That's also why I mentioned it was a combination of things, because the other PMs* didn't stop.

edit

*the other types of PMs, I meant. Sorry...browsing the board while listening to MiC to remind myself why I'm here in the first place. Yeah, I may be in the minority but I prefer the 1975 version of In the Back Of My Mind to the original. Anyway, where were we...?

I vote that some of the PMs get posted...I'm 100% serious. Because I'm truly getting sick and tired of reading drbeachboy and others not understand in the slightest the severity of what was sent to people. This has gone from blaming the mods, to talk of allowing AGD back on the board in limited capacity, to Lee Dempsey leaving the board.

And Lee, go ahead and make another board. But this PM problem is just a symptom of a larger issue which will most certainly see itself on any forum...there seems to be quite a dislike of Melinda from certain people behind the scenes. This dislike has apparently lead to a bit of false information being spread about her...gossip if you will...and this gossip has found it's way onto this very forum (in a private capacity). I find it funny that drbeachboy is worried about gossipers taking control of the forum, because in the PMs from Doe I was privy to I saw a tremendous amount of gossip about Melinda. It's okay for a supposed historian and scholar to gossip, but it's not okay for average joe to gossip. Gotcha ::) Common sense tells me that a person with the reputation of a "historian" spreading gossip is far worse than some random non-credible bloke spreading that same gossip.

I'm truly mind-blown by the ignorance in this thread. Again, I fully vote for a release of certain PMs in question. DrBeachBoy said that when this thread came to light, he "figured" that Guitarfool had dug up dirt on Doe. It wasn't until actual information was put forth that such a thought was put to rest. The same thing applies to this thread - no one is understanding the severity of this because the mods won't release the PMs. If you want this confusion to persist in a very unhealthy manner, if you want this forum to fall apart because of distrust of this information, keep on keeping people in the dark.

I vote against it. And if I do get outvoted, I will never post the contents of the PMs on this board. Not the ones I received. Now, if someone else does and it's a consensus, then whatever, but I don't feel right about it one bit.

This is as good as the GOP race.

May I ask why? I very much respect any decision you make Billy, and trust that you're always trying to do the right thing. But it seems apparent that some people aren't getting the severity of this issue. I don't know if the mods haven't clearly explained themselves, or if it's the lack of hard evidence being put on the table. Frankly, I'd think the fact that both you and Chuck LePage were in agreement on this issue speaks volumes for the severity of what happened.

The other Moderators was just Billy, and I thank him for doing that. I guess what this all comes down to is this: A lot of us see what goes on in this place. Rarely is it addressed in the threads, let alone with bannings, especially of the lifetime variety. Yet, Mikey & AGD are given lifetime bans for stuff done that is not even public to the board. It's tough to accept that after seeing what goes on here publicly. Looking at this from the outside, it seems a little weird. Some very good people are beginning to leave this place over what happened here these past few days. That tells me something. So what's done is done, and I have said my peace. I'll either accept what has gone down and stay or I will not and leave. Again, I thank Billy for his explanations and for sharing as much info as he could.

Because I was raised to believe that your word is your bond, and I made a promise, which even now I am going keep. I don't give an oatmeal pudding sh*t if it 'helps my position' or not, I just can't break my word and post anything publicly. I just can't.

I totally understand and respect that Billy.

My best hope is that people understand your integrity, and understand how tough of a call the ban was for you (given your friendship with Andrew throughout the years). I hope that would be enough to finally lay this issue to rest for everyone here.

Me too...me too.

Billy and the other mods are great, honest, and kind guys

See, that is part of the problem with some of us. We are friendly with AGD. We know how he operates publicly and with us personally and privately. What he has been banned for seems very unlikely for him to do that sort of thing. It's why we are having a tough time wrapping our heads around this whole thing.

I agree with Billy. We have the three Mods and the board owner all in agreement.  No matter what was done, it seems for Lee, DrBB, and others that Doe can do no wrong. Their bias trumps rational judgement between right and wrong. So for some, posting PMs will just bring comments like, "that's not so bad" or, "I've gotten worse". As well as publicizing this slander against the Wilson family.

Then there are those who say Doe isn't here to defend himself.  This is a Moderated message board. Billy, for one, is as fair and honest guy I know. He was friends with Doe for a long time. To think he did this without careful deliberation is just wrong!

I told you what he did to me and you ignore it. You are ignoring all the examples posted.

Well if the explanation for his actions was made clear, who's to say you wouldn't still doubt that he did what he did?

And Billy was one of the people who was good friends with Andrew for years and years. Yet the evidence that Billy found was enough to ban Andrew. That should tell you a lot.

Can we create a section on the board where we can make threads and talk about AGD

.

Agree

Hi Mods,
Would you object to someone who's received one of said PMs posting the information contained therein?

I think THAT is against board rules Emily.  It is, if I'm not mistaken, a ban-worthy offense.

I don't like seeing the mods take abuse for taking care of something that CLEARLY had to be dealt with.  Wrong is wrong.  They aren't.  I will continue to maintain that Andrew is off his game.  Until THAT was dealt with...something HAD to be done.

We have been talking about it. I'm on the fence myself, leaning towards absolutely no ,  and wouldn't post mine, but if we decided it was ok I'd support it. I'd hold off on that though.

Sad to see you go, but I understand.  Sad that these days, one has to be a fan of Brian OR a fan of Mike...but not both.

I know exactly what you mean. I myself happen to be a fan of both.

My question is why hasn't Melinda or Brian said anything on here about it or made a statement here after all it is they that he was Defaming, i think if they were to post something saying that they agree that AGD should have been banned then I think the debate would end. I (and most fans on here) would agree with what they say about the situation because they are the ones being spoken negatively by AGD,I'm assuming they know about this situation. IMO I think they should tell us their thoughts about it and then the thread can be locked and they should have the last word on it.

At least everyone loves Al  ;D

they should make that into a TV show. "Everyone Loves Al" lol

Just an observation:  Did anyone notice Mr. Doe's tag line?  

The four sweetest words in my vocabulary: "This poster is ignored".

Is this a self-fulfilling prophecy?

+1

 :o It was meant to be!

He's the Nostradamus of the Beach Boys world.. :lol

What you're not seeing is that when a derogatory comment or even a slanderous one is sent in a message, there is the issue of the person or persons being slandered having their own name dragged into something they have no reason to be dragged into publicly. If there is a reported message where a board member's personal life is brought up and derogatory or even libelous comments are made, and that person has no idea it even happened, would it be fair to them or their reputations to have it broadcast publicly? Absolutely not.

What makes this even more disgusting is that many of these comments and rumors and all the gossip was done under the protection of this board's private message system and rules. It meant someone could if they chose to effectively short-circuit the board rules about personal attacks or worse, and use the PM system to hide the activities, never to be seen by anyone. That is what happened in this case and I'm sure others which are still unknown.

There are limits. Personal lives, children, marriage, even what people do in the privacy of their own homes should not be fodder for gossip being sent by "insiders" or anyone else. If some of that gossip turned out to be false and slanderous, and in this case both would apply in several cases, not to mention in violation of the board rules had they been posted publicly, it makes the attempts to hide the activity even more devious in nature.

There are already reports still coming in about similar messages received by board members. There are messages which have been received and reported which would be unfair to the person whose name was included in the lies or gossip if they were to come out. There are some cases which go beyond any standards of respect or decency for other people, board members and public figures alike. And there are others which were reported by the recipients exactly as has been described in the course of this thread, where members were literally chased off of the board because of messages they received.

Any messages that a member feels should be reported because they cross a line, please report them. There is no way at this point to know just how widespread all of this was, and it is insulting to have the notion that it even happened challenged by those who simply don't have the facts, or that the integrity of the moderators is being questioned over this after the process that led to the action was described and detailed numerous times.

Does anyone think there is a justification for any board member to spread gossip and rumors about other board members' private lives, make comments about family members who have no involvement in any of this, and also include public figures like the Wilsons or even things concerning band members in those rumors and comments in the same ways? I hope not.

It seems AGD managed to form a cult of personality of sorts that some are having trouble breaking from.

.

Bgas, I don't know the guy but he did slander me in unsolicited PMs to members. And I don't think my situation, two yesrs gone, had anything to do with the present situation.

Guitarfool is a Mod and doing his job. Why, because some just don't get it.. I imagine they are keeping the thread open so people can vent and have their say.

As with any thread, if you find it upsetting, don't read it. Insulting a Mod, just doing his best, doesn't help matters.

I agree it should be locked but I am not a Mod and there are no doubt factors I am not privy to.

This is silly.  The thread is just spinning in circles.  Arguing back and forth, to what end?  Close the thread.

Billy, I don't know you, but I do believe you and the other mods did the right thing.  A sad day indeed.

I once backed up something you said (a while back) and received a pm from doe telling me not to listen to anything you have to say. Hah.

I don't think we can move much further past where this thread is now. Doe is gone and we'll see what it's like without him.

if andrew's comments are no longer welcome, then nothing i ever said or posted is worth a damn either. this board is dying quickly.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cPN3Fv2aJhE

They're worth a damn to me, and to pretty much everyone here.

Yeah, Steve is the fucking man! I need more stories about your adult activity center days.... :hat

I personally like "Careless Whisper".
I think George Michael really nailed that one.  The saxophone melody is amazing.

Another favorite is "Last Christmas".   Such a fun filled Christmas number!!
My holidays are filled with hope when I hear that one!!

Is Wham reforming to do shows during the Holidays with the Beach Boys??  Thought I heard a rumour!
Or maybe my Alzheimer's is setting in again!!

Am I in the right place??    :3d

Dogbone

Love and Mercy to you and your friends tonight; i think it's time to close the thread. 

Hello Susan.

Hi Charles. 

(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/27/27097e7a6edd6001713509891ae8623e8f65d614fd4720d382742949f204f4e7.jpg)

He was kinda beautiful...

As am I

(https://scontent.fhou1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/v/t1.0-9/12107949_1162155723797802_5694706222648855160_n.jpg?oh=5618c6f889fddbfd2af7caaf6d0f3824&oe=57A4EFE8) 

In a different kind of way...

Hi Susan,
 I hope all is well with you. I haven't seen you in here for awhile.

This is EXACTLY my point.  

Amen.

Dogbone

I can already see a clearing through the fog and...sniff, sniff...the air even has a refreshing fragrance!  :happydance

Hi, Susan!

Hi MD!

Close it and let's have some Mike v Brian threads...

God Only Knows

Man...reading through this thread, youre all a bunch of idiots. Stick a knife in it, this board is done.

That attitude certainly isn't going to make it any better...completely uncalled for.

Considering that you took the time to do that, who's the idiot?

Says the Trumpbert.

And missing correct punctuation, too!

Okay, NOW it is time to lock it...poor grammar, spelling, and/or punctuation makes me a sad panda

Reopening and moving to the Sandbox

Groovy!

I just learned about this and it's difficult to process - it just doesn't sound like something AGD would do, at least not if he was in his right mind.  I'm not doubting he did whatever he is being alleged to have done, and deserved banning, but something is just not right about the whole situation.  I noticed someone upstream mentioned they knew of at least one "insider" who was deliberately feeding AGD misinformation.  Could this have been a deliberate "set up" from those who wanted him ousted from the Brian circle?  I know a conspiracy theory is pretty far fetched, but the lack of logic in the whole situation (from AGD who was always so particular about logic and grammar and interpreting what exactly is meant by what someone says) is so bizarre and atypical of AGD, at least the AGD I knew and met and spent some brief time with.

On the other hand, I feel deprived that I never received any of these slanderous and scandalous PM's!

My understanding is one of the people who has been giving him info 'switched sides' himself, if you follow me.

Given his personality and willingness to spread the info around, I'd say he probably managed to get kicked out of Brian's camp on his own.

And his bunk "I know something you don't" act when he really didn't wore thin.

Ok, here's an idea, question. What if Andrew were to write out a "statement", or explanation for everything he's accused of? Would a mod be willing to post it, or let it be posted by another member?

If this has been reopened then maybe AGD should be allowed to come in and defend himself. Amazing that as soon as a thread is closed at Hoffman this then reemerges.

I would love to read such a statement.

I don't want AGD back in any form. How many chances does this guy get?

At least one more to explain himself.

I was asked to reopen it before Hoffman was closed...took me a bit because I didn't read my PMs until after the fact

That's the thing...he was on #3, but really could've (and should've...) been more.  Something like that will not happen again, regardless of who it is.

.

Come on Billy, that cannot be a coincidence. Also seeing Chuck there and maybe another mod just before the thread gets closed. Something smells rotten in Denmark.

:woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot

I've felt the sting of AGD's ire, but I harbored no ill will. He was just too informative and entertaining to write off for his... "personality flaws." They bugged me, and I wished he would have toned it down, but he was as much a target on this forum as Mike Love is, and grew increasingly frustrated-- along with many of us-- over the C50 Wars. Yes, he became rude and dismissive, because he kept having to deal with a bunch of idiots spouting the exact same crap back and forth day after day after day. He was forced into a corner.

Now, my question is: where does scholarly research end and a man's opinion begin? Is it AGD's fault that we expected him to be a perfect, neutral arbiter of facts, and to avoid the sort of public gossiping and guessing games that many of us take part in?

How certain are we that this info he allegedly passed on was, in fact, false? How certain are we that AGD himself did not actually believe the purported information to be true, and was therefore knowingly misleading people, as alleged? If AGD was knowingly misleading people, why was he doing it?

I know at least one moderator has reported that he confirmed that at least one bit of information that AGD allegedly disseminated was a falsehood. However, I'm ignorant of the contents of these messages, so I don't know if the bit that was debunked was "Brian Wilson killed Zeppo Wilson and Melinda hid the body" or if it's "Brian is finally sick and tired of 'Be My Baby'." Was this alleged falsehood so twisted that AGD's reputation would never recover, or was it something far less damning but false nonetheless?

Are message boards democracies? Do the moderators or site owner owe us anything at all, other than promises to abide by the rules they made?

Either way, I think this situation was going to be ugly no matter what and it's been handled with a respectful degree of openness, while still abiding by board rules. My sincerest hope-- and Billy's post are reassuring on this point-- is that this action was taken because the situation was just so messed up, and there was no hope of salvaging AGD's place on this board. Unfortunately, the rancorous relationship between AGD and Guitarfool has made some posters choose sides, which is unfortunate, because it's bad enough to lose AGD without everyone digging in deeper in the foxholes of discord.

Ummm, anyone can feel free to PM me? Since that's what all the cool kids have been doing all along, apparently. I'm never the cool kid, not even on a Beach Boys message board...

Also, I vote that the mods should delete all posts that don't contain actual words and ban anyone who posts more than three of said messages.

(Just in case message boards are really democracies)

I can confirm that the thread over on the Steve Hoffman board (which was actually a thread initially started about something unrelated to anything to do with this board) was still active at the time this thread was reopened. I saw this thread reopened on the main board page where it lists all of the most recent posts across all of the different forums, and then went to the Hoffman board where "that" thread was still up and active.

I can't speak to much of anything else, but if there is an accusation that this tread was reopened after the Hoffman thread was closed, that is verifiably incorrect.

Why would the Hoffman thread be closed?  Unless posters were repeating the slanderous accusations that AGD was apparently making.  Too bad because Bellagio could have responded to the situation in some way over there.

I don't think timing has to perfect. Even within hours on the same day is not a coincidence. Chuck showing up in Hoffman out of the blue. He rarely comes here besides showing up in there. Just sayin'....

Coincidence?  I think not.  Just saying.

Thank you.

Let me say this:  people don't get temporarily or permanently banned from this message board for nothing.  The reasons may not always be to everyone's liking or understanding, but a lot of investigation, discussion, and soul searching takes place before such actions.  

One example: Mikie.  I personally objected to him being on this board, as 1) he had been banned from Susan's board, and 2) he threatened me and my family.  But, I did not push the point, as I trust the moderators here, and they allowed him to be here.  Until, apparently, he did something, or enough of something, to get banned.  

Even the worst of troublemakers gets every chance to clean up their act.   When they don't, moderators moderate.

Well said.

 I feel bad now, though, because if I had known Mikie had threatened you and your family, I never would've let him on here.

Of course! You rarely come out to play. But really, for people to post stuff about somebody who cannot defend them self is not right. You see Hoffman closed that thread real quick.

I still don't know why this thread is even open. "What's the point of beating a dead horse?" he asked, before clicking "Post."

I agree, not being able to respond on the Hoffman thread was frustrating.

If AGD would like us to post his thoughts about the banning, he can get it to me directly, either by email or on Facebook, and I will seriously consider posting it in this thread.

I guess I got off really well then only being cyber-stalked for 10 days and publicly psychoanalyzed by Mikie here (even though he's never met me).  Happily, I wasn't even involved when he decided to publicly self-destruct on SS later to assure his lifetime ban.  The mods took care of it all because they're responsible people who aren't particularly into public lies. 

But you all can apparently still chat with the guy since he's on the Hoffman boards - and it's clearly full of all the rejects from this board - the racists, the misogynists, the cyber-stalkers - they're all there if you miss them so much.

I don't qualify for any of the above, so I think an apology is in order. Mods?

Yeah, I won't be apologizing over that comment.  I didn't reference you personally, nor did I say the entire board was made up of such people.  But I'm seeing the banned creeps all there, now that someone tipped me off to look.  If you're there too, congratulations.  Have fun.

Well, you can grow a pair and apologise to me, then.

Smiling Ed's a good guy...not like the group referenced.

Thanks, Billy. As ever, I appreciate it.

The Hoffman board has a membership of over 55,000 members (for a frame of reference, it appears the Smiley Smile board has a bit over 3,300), so to generalize in any way about that board because of a few former members of this board is unfair.

I have mixed feelings about the Hoffman board (I pretty much ignore a lot of the audiophile wankery; and some of their moderating is very much more questionable and subjective), but there are a ton of intelligent fans and experts and industry people on that board. 99.999999% of that board has nothing to do with the Beach Boys, let alone a few former SS posters.

While I want the Smiley Smile Board to thrive (it's the only BB board still going folks) and the Hoffman board rarely offers an insight into the BBs that Smiley Smile hasn't already offered, I would encourage folks to check that board out for a myriad of music related topics (both on the audio side of things and just general music discussion), as well as film/TV/photography, and so on.

I'm guessing (and I have no info on the subject) that the thread in question over on the Hoffman board was deleted because it was almost entirely a thread simply pissing and moaning about *another* unrelated message board, with a bit of inflammatory paraphrased bits of alleged info from PMs thrown in for good measure. I'm surprised that thread lasted as long as it did, and it's also a bummer for whomever it was that started that thread, which was started about some unrelated thing to do with a Beach Boys fan twitter feed or something.

+1

Being female, I don't especially care to grow a pair.  If you took my comment personally, I have no idea why.  Please explain?  If there was a direct insult, of course, I'll apologize.  Unless you're one of the guys I mentioned, how were you personally insulted?

I’m sure Andrew will buck up, will continue to contribute to the saga as only he can. He has seen worse.
I am reminded of a soirée years ago. He was in officer’s uniform, glass of Maker’s Mark in hand, light and shadow
stressing his tilted jaw, and letting it be known—to a circle of maidens no less—that his cousin Prince Vassily
was in town for a spell, bunking with Andrew himself. One lass called him out—suggesting that Vassily had
in fact recently passed on—whereupon Andrew broke into a falsetto take on the bridge from “No Go Showboat.”
The girls positively swooned. He can maintain his balance.

Obviously not as many as you get.

My lip is quivering as a single tear rolls down my cheek.

I'm still trying to make sense of this story, but I know one thing-- I like it

At this point, the whole thread is a pressure trip on Billy.,, ::)

So did any moderator have any discussion about any of these matters with AGD before banning?

Actually, I did, on Facebook,  specifically about the 'bullying'  PMs. As I saw them with my own eyes , I let him know that there was no question. I am the one who contacted him. I'd had discussions with him previously about this...in fact, all of his previous bans/suspensions were done by me. When I reinstated him the last time, I told him that this had to be the last time, that I couldn't make any exceptions any longer.

Certainly feels like it

And to follow up on Cam's thought; which one of you were in the Book Depository and which one of you were on the grassy knoll? Because you know, there has to be a conspiracy going on here.

I'm the one who shot the Kennedys (being a time traveler helps), faked the moon landing, cost the Bills the Super Bowl 4 years running, and created climate change.

But i didn't shoot the deputy!

And new coke/crystal Pepsi. ;)

Hey crystal pepsi was awesome.

I don't remember what New Coke tasted like, though I can't imagine it would be any worse than Tab *shudder*

I shot tupac. I didn't kill him, though.

After all, it was you and me...

At one year old, I convinced M&B to make SIP in 1992.... ;)

Mikie was one of the guys I missed around here. But threatening somebody's family? No...that's just not cool in any way.

If you had said Speed Turtle, I'd have hung you myself :lol

It's a Castillo thing... ;D

I talked Brian into recording GIOMH  just to piss over Andrew.  ;D

Just give it up, guys. The mods did what they had to do. No amount of this thread is going to make them change their minds...at least I don't think that's gonna be the case.

Did any other Mods join you on the "bully" knoll? ;)
I take it he was not asked about the secondhand information?

.

Crystal Pepsi is actually back!

(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/~xMAAOSw1S9WeB~o/$_1.JPG)

I don't think it has hit "regular" shelves yet, but it has already been distributed via some sweepstakes-type things and possibly test marketed in some areas.

Here's an old vs. new comparison:

(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13094216_1346546422028619_4814811505053037545_n.jpg?oh=e67cb282065ba7ee2c6414b3da1e8512&oe=57B6DCA4)

Instead of constantly asking Billy why he did what he did, why don't you guys go to the source himself, AGD?

 I don't get why in the world this was opened back up to begin with, unless Billy is a glutton for punishment. Or gluttony in general. Maybe he's gluten free, and needs more glutton.

Opened it back up because the discussion was moving elsewhere....rather keep it here.

.

Hi. I came here looking for information about the album For Life by The AGD Band but instead found a lot of bickering about someone else. It's not the first time I got tricked into coming here. Years ago, I was looking for some pictures of young men in bathing suit attire (I googled "beach + boys") but all I saw were a few 70+ year old men who were clearly not sexy at all. I think the internet is broken.

A lot of books coming down the pike.

We got Mike's opus, closely followed by Brian's perspective. We may even get a fascinating manuscript from Rocky.

But will the world be ready for this?

(http://i68.tinypic.com/257gefd.jpg)

:lol

.

That one did not work

Foward by Oldsurferdude??? >:D

He really nails that smug smile down.

You reopened the can of worms, Billy. As long this stays open it will continue to haunt you. At least it was calm in here after you closed it. Did the Hoffman people put pressure on Chuck to reopen this up?

Ultimately, the questions aren't going to stop until AGD explains his actions here or elsewhere.   

Not to my knowledge. I do know several people complained to me that it was happening over at Hoffman, and asking why I closed the thread here.

And even then, they might not

Very true.  People will believe what they want. 

Sadly, yeah, that's human nature. It can be frustrating at times  to say the least.

After reading through this whole thread I'm not sure if I feel entertained or utterly confused....  :lol

Are there 2 Mikies?
http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,41.msg25.html#msg25 (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,41.msg25.html#msg25)

  Good Mikie and his evil twin, apparently.

Perspective people - this is an one Internet message board concerned with the Beach Boys.  It's not the only music message board that discusses the Beach Boys.  It's not the only outlet for serious commentary on the Beach Boys music (ESQ, blogs, other music websites).  AGD will not wither away and perish for lack of access to this board to post his ruminations and critical comments.  He actually has his own website! 

I am confident AGD will somehow survive being banned from one message board, and return in another forum like a Phoenix from the ashes, his sarcasm, Beach Boys knowledge and critical faculties intact.

He's silently fact checking and correcting us even now!

They held my cat at gunpoint until I conceded.

By implication. Don't be disingenuous.

I get that you won't apologise; that you've been hurt by some of the others - but not by me.

Some of you guys are bigger fans of AGD than the BBs.... ::)

Better than the most outrageous soap opera on here...not sure whats happening tbh..maybe even a little scared  :ahh. AGD pm'd me once so I don't feel too left out though it was nothing like what seems to be alleged here.

To sum up:

AGD works for Mike Love and sends pm's to people in support of Mike with possible lies re: the Brian camp?
Mikie threatened someones family and maybe did some other stuff?
OSD is really AGD?
SMiLE Brian is really OSD?

I like the Beach Boys!

I'm OSD, he's OSD, she's OSD, we're all OSD!

 :lol

That's better than everyone being AGD, for sure.  ;)

It's like the movie sparticus!

Yes! One of the best scenes!

With all due respect, aren't  you being a little thin skinned?

Smilin Ed H, I don't think Debbie KL's comment was directed at you.

Nah, not really.

Just amazing that two Beach Boys' threads get closed down there, while this on reopens and all over AGD's banning, all on the same day. I cannot get over how badly this whole thing has been handled. I am thinking that either a lack of Common Sense or your cat being held at gunpoint would cause/allow a mess like this to happen. Betting the pussycat handled his problem like a good pussycat would.

It wasn't...whole thing was a misunderstanding.  

Two? What was the other one?

Twas a Pet Sounds thread that was closed after folks moved there to discuss AGD when the other thread was closed.

No.  I don't know the exact state of our relationship in 2005, but we will presume from that link that it was okay.  In 2010, when I saw that he had registered here after being banned from the Shut Down board, I advised the moderators here I would abide by their decision to allow him here, but also advised them of the behavior and comments I had witnessed.  And, not incredibly at all, he eventually wore out his welcome on this message board.

So, by all means, lament the absence of Mikie, AGD, and anyone else you miss.  I miss them too.  But all these years, they have had the opportunity to create their own online communities and show us how to do it right.  Yet, when they aren't allowed here, or choose to not be here, they simply move to another forum, until they aren't welcome there either.  Why is that?

When is this going to stop? Seriously...when? Ever? AGD could be a pain and if he crossed the line so be it but seriously....years and years of this from the usual suspects. Explain to me what the difference is between this stuff and listening to two 9 year olds laughing at each others fart noises. Several people have already tried to politely point this out in this very thread and on it will go. For better or for worse at least Andrew was a walking encyclopedia of Beach Boys history and had a reason for being here.

The big difference is that fart noises are actually funny. 

To quote Andrew, "There's a host of good, good folk here making important contributions, and significant original research has resulted. Then there's the trolls, malcontents and general bottom feeders, who do none of this, being content to disrupt for the sake of disruptings sake. Sad."

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,22829.msg540931.html#msg540931

When the line between the former and the latter disappears, when the former becomes the latter, for any reason, an intolerable situation emerges.

On the other hand, if all you have left in here are the trolls, malcontents and general bottom feeders, then it doesn't leave this place in too good of shape. I understand that not all of the good contributors will leave, but by doing what you are doing you are running the the risk of losing the people who make SmileySmile a special place to visit. It's been quite quiet in here already.

If we are willing to tolerate contributors who are "trolls, malcontents and general bottom feeders" out of a fear of the message board collapsing without them, then we should shut down the board right now.   

There's no rule against being 'annoying'*, but there is for bullying.

*'annoying' being in the eye of the beholder. It's subjective. If there was a rule against it, there'd be a few other people banned

Then it's up to us who are here to make the board a better place.

Make Smiley Smile Great Again!

Exactly. Do we allow Rocky back in for the same reason, ratings? Of course not.

Because you expect 9 years to laugh at fart noises. I don't expect a supposedly well-respected historian and "fact-checker" to spread infantile gossip behind the scenes (which then traveled to other posters). Mike's Beard, I read your little whine on the Hoffman board, to make things perfectly clear (short of drawing this out in crayon): We've all had to read for the last year or two the Cincinnati Kid's opinions on certain subjects (opinions that really seemed to be based on bad information). He bragged about his source, that we would all be surprised if we knew who it was. Turns out his "source" was getting his info from Andrew G Doe. Turns out that information was wrong. If you can't easily see the danger in young posters being spread bad information based on that incident, then trying to explain this is an exercise in futility.

If a poster is using the board's PM function to spread malicious and potentially libelous gossip behind the scenes that involves Brian's CHILDREN/adoption for god's sake I would hope the mods would ban that person no matter WHO it was. That it was being spread by someone who we're all supposed to trust to have the right information is honestly even worse.

Perhaps it all was second hand information - but let's then ask who that information came from, and why on earth it seems like Andrew didn't fact-check this information before spreading it to those who didn't know any better. And also, why was all of this negativity aimed at one person? Honestly, the sum total of what I've found out the last couple weeks makes me realize just how hated of a person Melinda Wilson is in certain circles. All of that speculation, gossip, and flat out wrong allegations were spread to this very board. And then subsequently spread to other posters.

And now this is getting to the point where you guys are trying to vilify Charles LePage (who is gracious enough to run this flippin board) for trying to do the right thing. Seriously, I hope the mods release this information in some fashion, because I think it would shut a lot of people up here.

Of course, some exodus of Doe followers will happen when Lee Dempsey finds or makes the promised land of boards. However, Charles is exactly right - these problems will show up on any board where these people are allowed on...and best of luck to that, because we see how it has played out time and time again.

It never stopped being great.  Not when it branched off from the Smile Shoppe in 2004.  Not when "the exodus" occurred in 2006.  And not now.

Slight correction...the info came from Andrew, but was third-hand. Somebody who Andrew talked to, talked to CK.


Part of it was briefly mentioned on the Hoffman board (including an accusation that I was never told directly, and was ludicrous to the point that I would've never believed it if Andrew had told me) before the thread was killed. That said, I think short of actually posting the screenshots, there are those who STILL wouldn't believe it; I mean, for f***'s sake, you'd think people would've believed ME, knowing how tight Andrew and I were for years.

Yeah, I did say that CK's source was getting their info from AGD. Unless I'm misunderstanding you.

I misread it as 'his source was Andrew G Doe'. I'm gonna go lie down now :lol

Haha it's no problem, Billy ;D There's too much to keep up with regarding this situation methinks.


Exactly! Both you and Charles have been an integral part of this forum for how many years now? I would think, based on your years of good service, that people would give you guys enough respect to accept your judgement in this case. Sad that for some that's not happening.

Billy deserves his own monument in Texas for holding this board together! 8)

That's the spirit!

Rab, Maybe calm down and re-read what my gripe is. I never said Andrew didn't foul up or compared the perceived trolls to him. The guy is done here and yet the same "annoying" people carry on business as usual. Never satisfied, never happy unless they are "annoying" people.

Some fine points Rab. Can't argue with the most of it.

As I've said elsewhere I wasn't party to the misinformation being spread, missed the brief revelations on the Hoff board. The most I know a out it is what I've just read here, that it seems to involve Brian, the adoption of his children and some hatred from some quarters towards Melinda. That conjures up some terrible speculative thoughts that make me wish I hadn't read the post at all.

So do the allegations get posted so there's no ambiguity, or do we just move on and get back to focussing on the music… and maybe delete this thread, as, to be honest, these hints and spoilers ain't good.

John is right.  Let's take the focus back to the music.  There is plenty of history and history makers here.

peace.

This bs you and Empire of Love keep saying about my "opinions over the past couple years" really needs to stop.  You don't even know that what I was told was in anyway malicious towards Melinda or the family (guess what, it wasn't).  Turns out it wasn't 100% false anyway.  So I'd appreciate it if you would stop throwing my named through the mud for some supposed opinions that aren't actually mine.  

The second to last sentence above is bordering on... well it's getting close to what started all this nonsense.

Actually none of this nonsense would have started if Empire of Love didn't twist my post into something else entirely just to start some drama.  Guess he got his wish.

No YOU are implying that false information you got is not 100 100% false. How would you actually know that to be the case. How can you make that assertion?

Ok..rather than worry about who started what, let's worry about who is going to finish it. My vote is on me. 8)

 All kidding aside, let's move on, put Friends on the cd player/iPod/turntable , and then we'll have world peace

Yes, your post was twisted around. It doesn't dispute the fact that you received false information and used it to base your opinions on certain topics publicly (and you continually bragged about "source" throughout the last couple). That this information wasn't 100% false still leaves a good percentage that was false. And no one was granted a wish here. Had potentially libelous comments not been made in the first place (and apparent bullying) I wouldn't be wasting my time writing this post, and AGD would probably still be a prominent part of this board. You know what I do wish? I wish that Melinda wasn't the target of some fairly disgusting gossip...that way now I wouldn't be privy to the behind-the-scenes plumbing of this fandom, and I'd actually still have passion for the history of this band.

Perfect album to leave behind all this nonsense. Think I'll spin that on the turntable now :listening

The same way I know that it's mostly false.  Billy asked to keep this stuff private, so I'm not going to share any details.

Yeah, I totally get what you're saying.  I'm sorry that I'm probably sounding harsh, but it's just that my " info" had nothing to do with these libelous/bullying PMs that AGD was sending out.  I don't want people to get the idea that I was spreading that type of info around.   

Agreed, I finally got around to ordering Sunflower and have really enjoyed listening to the full album almost non-stop. 

Was it your first time hearing it? It's in my top 5...love, love, LOVE it.

For me (and this changes every few months it seems), it's

1) Friends
2) 20/20
3)Wild Honey
4) Sunflower
5) Pet Sounds

I had listened to it on Spotify a few times, but I don't have premium, so I couldn't listen to it whenever I wanted. 

Here's my top five (and it changes a lot as well)

1) SD/SN
2) Sunflower
3) Pet Sounds
4) MIU (like I said it changes lol)
5) TWGMTR (probably more sentimental since it's the only album released in my lifetime and all of the excitement around C50)

Good list CK...I got news for you...MIU is 6th, Holland is 7th, and TWGMTR is 8th for me, rounded off by Smiley Smile and So Tough to round out my top 10.  I actually enjoy MIU quite a bit, save the first and last cuts.

Good to know I'm not the only one!  Seems like nobody else likes it.  :lol  Winds of Change is probably in my top three songs from the album.  MIU is one of the few albums that'll I'll play all the way through without skipping tracks.     

I don't care what anybody says...I LOVE Matchpoint of our Love, and Pitter Patter is one of my favorite post-1972 songs.

Can't cut for Winds of Change, though...Al sounds like Kermit the Frog getting a colonoscopy.

Yes!  Those two are what I listen to most along with My Diane.  Amazing vocal from Brian on Matchpoint.   

Thanks for putting that image in my head, now that's all I think about when I listen to it lol. 

I don't care what anybody says, MIU is one of the beach boys's best albums.  ;D

You people are crazy!
Actually, I'll admit MIU has begun to grow on me....

:lol    For reals, the song makes me thing of the Muppet movie where Kermit is singing, right before he gets hit by that car. :lol :lol

I love My Diane, but I'm partial to the unsweetened version.

I understand, and I don't hold any negative feelings towards you. I was sent bad info myself directly from AGD, and though it wasn't libelous, it was yet another drop in the bucket of what seems to be a rather negative outlook about Melinda and her story. So I hope you can understand my frustration about all of this. Again, no hard feelings.

Paul J B, I did indeed misread your post, and furthermore I should've clarified that most of that post wasn't directed at you, but at those who seems hellbent on blaming anyone who isn't Andrew regarding this situation.

John Manning, honestly I hope one of the mods will further explain what exactly happened. Though Chuck and Billy did their best to make it clear in this thread, there is still room for speculation. Hopefully the facts will come out in some way or form so this topic can finally be put to rest.

Charles, Billy, and I explained what happened in the course of this thread as related to the mods and the decision.

I think the explanations you guys gave made things very clear. But without the evidence put forth I can see why confusion would still exist to some people. Like DrBeachBoy explained, they had nothing but cordial discourse (publicly and privately) with AGD...so many find these accusations hard to believe. In fact, besides a few minor incidents when I inadvertently screwed up a fact, I had no issues with Andrew...had I not seen some evidence for myself I'd be fairly confused as well.

Ok, then why reopen this friggin' thread again if you were so thorough in your explanation? You can't have it both ways. You invited this all on yourself. Plus, the people being talked about cannot even defend themselves. At this point you are just doing more dumping on.

There has been too much lying and distorting about not only this decision but decisions made by moderators in general. I do not post on the Hoffman forum, I am not a member of the Hoffman forum, but I saw some of the quotes before they got pulled, and I saw who was posting them. I have been the scapegoat for any number of people to blame and be slammed for certain things that were done, if not everything certain people do not agree with, and I at least deserve a chance to reply. Especially after seeing silly, mind-numbingly simple issues like the time of day when this thread was reopened to a timeline in years of when Charles made certain statements about Mikie get dredged up and become even more dirt to be thrown where there is absolutely no basis in the truth and no grounds to throw any dirt.

There have already been statements by Billy, Klaas when he was a moderator, and myself that have said clearly and absolutely airtight factually how the moderator decisions work. They are discussed and decided as a group. There are no individuals going around banning people out of spite or based on personal grudges. That has NEVER happened since I have been a moderator, and Billy can back that up. If anyone still believes that is not the case, every word of every mod discussion is archived and available. It should not need to reach that point.

To see those members who are still active here among those who have been banned from this forum posting comments on that Hoffman board was disgusting. If you don't want to believe what three moderators and the board admin have already put on the record as the truth, you are liars for still suggesting otherwise.

The Mikie situation. Enough is enough. I've had it being the patsy or the one blamed exclusively for this. Everything that happened is archived. Everything discussed is archived. To see Lee Dempsey, Alan Smith, and any number of other posters still insisting on making this an issue to keep beating the drum, either you have been told the wrong information, you have been lied to, or you're choosing to post lies on the board. Whatever the case, Mikie was given multiple chances - off the board through PM - to respond publicly and correct the false information he was posting on top of the multiple infractions of the board rules that had led up to warnings and bans. He did not do that.

To Lee Dempsey, Bgas, and the others: Whatever you were told and whatever you may believe enough to continue posting, Mikie was not banned permanently for posting a cartoon on this board. Mike's Beard posted the cartoon, and got a 7-day timeout after multiple complaints were lodged. The reasons why Mikie was banned were handled confidentially and will remain so. But whatever you may have been told, I was not the sole moderator who banned him out of spite, he was not banned permanently for posting a cartoon, he was not banned permanently for what he thought was my grudge against him for losing an argument or some nonsense, and he was not banned without agreement from the mods who were on the case. Full agreement, and multiple chances given to right the wrongs.

So yes, Bgas, I get the last word on that one.

To Alan Smith, et al...That's the truth. The actual words are archived and will back up everything. I noticed an attempt to dig up a 2005 message from Charles was made, however as Charles himself already made clear, his situations with Mikie happened several years AFTER 2005, and if Charles' word isn't enough to end this nonsense, there are archives of that too. Charles is right. No need to dredge up 11 year old posts to try to insinuate otherwise to the board membership. I'd say an apology might be in order, but that's your call. Charles didn't deserve that, and yes I'm both calling out the action and defending him.

To Dr. Beach Boy - again, here was a case with the timing of the threads being closed where the truth is the truth and I guess it was up to HeyJude to come on and set the record straight after the words of mods and board admins wasn't enough. I'd also say an apology may be in order.

And I'd also suggest further you check your facts before making accusatory posts or challenging people and their word publicly. I'm leaving out whatever issues you continue to shove in my face, whether here or behind my back on that Hoffman thread, because it's obvious you have issues that you want to hold on to despite hearing the actual truth. But I'd say it is a damn shame and also beyond frustrating to see someone continue to hammer away at things that were already explained and clarified. At some point perhaps you should consider stepping up and saying "I'm sorry, I got it wrong" instead of beating the same drum endlessly and claiming a right to post opinions.

As far as issues with Andrew Doe, once again every mod and admin involved has described and explained the process. It should be case closed, but it is not. If there are still people trying to claim that I was the instigator of this out of a grudge or based on malice from personal issues, that is a lie. And it is offensive to continue reading this and other lies over and over again. But - in the case of the Hoffman board posts, consider those sources and what kinds of axes they have to grind.

If it comes down to it, it will not be flattering to those involved to see descriptions posted of why they were banned, with all the things that went into it. So...it should end.

And in terms of my own "issues" with Andrew Doe that someone alluded to, I kept that out of the process of discussing and weighing the options that led to the ban. If I could use a megaphone to shout that even louder, I kept whatever some people seem to think led to me pushing for a ban out of the process.

I could have made a big case when certain things did go down. Like finding out Andrew was contacting members privately in an effort to have me discredited and force my removal from the forum.

Will any of the Hoffman posters or those hammering this issue into the ground here step up and admit they got messages about that, about trying to sh*t-can me and call for new mods to be elected?

No one had to. Because it turned out the same kind of thing was done to another board member, and people actually came forward in this very thread to admit they received those kinds of messages.

And I myself had in the past - prior to any of that garbage - received a message about another well-known board member that not only insulted him, but also found out others received even worse where the family members were included.

Nice stuff, right? Let's defend insults and innuendo leveled at other board members and their families. Not just band members and their families, mind you, but fellow board members who have no skin in whatever sick game all of this is a part of. Done in private, of course, never to be challenged and never to be put on a board. Yet, it was sent to multiple recipients who reported similar messages about this and other members. Sad, sad stuff.

I've just about had it watching as all of this goes down. Seeing Charles challenged on the basis of searching for and digging up an 11 year old message to try to discredit him without knowing a damn thing about the actual situation was a tipping point.

It's either "all about the music" as a reason for coming here, or it's all about digging up dirt, trying to ruin and discredit people, and above that using lies and innuendo when the truth has been put on the public record for all to read more than enough times.

It could be all about the music. Unfortunately it seems to be, with some, not quite the reason for coming here. That's it. I'm tired of seeing good people get smeared, have their reputations wrecked, and their word called into question by lies and liars. If someone isn't sure of the truth, consider asking what the truth is before using a lie or distortion to ruin people.

There is a difference between arguing about concert dates and what albums are good or bad, and lying or spreading rumors about people and their personal lives across this community. At least most people would agree with that, unfortunately some prefer to deal in lies and destruction. The latter should not be welcome here or on any board.

I can and will definitely back that up. Look, let's be real...not everybody is going to like everybody here. That's normal, that's human nature. Hell, there's a member or two (four, actually)  on this board that I absolutely despise , and i wish they could get off this board, and never come back, but they're still here. Why? Because they haven't done anything ban-worthy. Yet I banned a close friend. Why? Because it was the right thing to do. If we mods were as bad as claimed, don't you think we'd go around banning people for disagreeing with us? GF is 100% right, and that is not us.

You know why this thread was reopened? Because people were still discussing it, on other boards and occasionally on other threads. We reopened this thread not for people to pile on Andrew (which makes me extremely conflicted and uncomfortable), but for us all to clear the air, BOTH SIDES, once and for all. I admit, I'm ready for this to end, and even though I was reluctant to reopen the thread, I admit that, once again, it is the right thing to do. Why? Because it my honest to God hope that we can move past this, and go back to the music. I don't care if your favorite member is Brian, Mike, Dennis, Carl, Al, Ricky, Blondie, Bruce (do they even exist?)...we're here. That means we are fans, right? That means we all have something in common. Let's concentrate on that.

I hope my words and thoughts were conveyed to everyone's understanding. This is not a 'beatings will continue until morale improves' type board. Man, I've been on boards that were, where if you so much as said one word to a mod in disagreement, your post would be deleted and there would be severe consequences. This isn't that place.

Now, I hope these can be my final thoughts on the matter.

Listening to Wild Honey right now. There are days when it is my favorite Beach Boys album. One of the highlights of my life came a few years ago, when I went through a phase where I only listened to this local college radio station that played mainly indie music (of all genres) or more obscure music. If a Beach Boys song was played, it was always one of the 'deep cuts'. So, you have no idea where the ONE AND ONLY time my band got played on the radio happened to be on KTRU, between 'Aren't You Glad' and Tom Waits's 'Howling at the Moon'.

Now look who is doing the calling out here. First off, I never mentioned you publicly on the Hoffman board. I was the one who asked people there not to discuss the AGD stuff over there. I knew that the thread would be closed straight away. Not fair to to the OP who's thread had nothing to do with the AGD situation here.

Second, I will not apologize for what I see as a lousy job as a mod. You cop an attitude with anyone who does not agree with you. You come off as moderating your own arguments. It puts anyone who questions what you write, in jeopardy. Some people feel as though they have to tread lightly with you on everything. I tried letting you know about this privately, but nothing changed after that exchange.

Lastly, if you cannot see what a bad idea it was to reopen this thread, then I honestly have to question the decision making here. I am sorry that I have to say these things, somebody had to.

Every other thread was turning into, "where is AGD"thread or "just give him a probation" thread. People wanted to have their final say or spray and some gave their support. I get that we live in a generation of "why" and we like to know everything their is to know about what, who and ultimately why. But the decision was made, if you don't like it email him or send him a message on Facebook.

That is indeed true. Although I could not post there, I did lurk and read the thread, and you did indeed say it was a bad idea to discuss it.

 

That, however, should not be the case. As I said in my own post above, if that were true, wouldn't GF ban anyone who disagrees with him? Wouldn't you have gotten banned for your responses to him? That has not happened, because that is not how he or any of us operate.


And again, the reason why this thread was reopened was summed up by what I said, and what 18th just posted too. The discussion is going to happen whether we want it to or not (and I quite frankly am sick to death of it). Better here than in other threads, or indeed elsewhere online if possible. I mean, what if someone vents on another board because they feel they can't do it here, and in the process gets his or herself banned there on account of it? That'd be jacked up, but it's possible.

If lots of users (even on different music forums) repeatedly express having issues with a certain mod, is that not a red flag? Is there no appropriate course of action? Here's an idea: try using someone else. See if the complaints continue. Maybe ask the people of the board who they would like to lead them. Yeah, it's a long shot: I doubt Guitarfool will give up his position of power in a gesture of humility, but the fact that nothing comes of all of the vocal complaining is confusing to say the least.

Guitarfool is a superb Moderator. The Board is lucky to have him!

Define "lots." 

And to answer your question, not necessarily.  If you could give me an example of someone who was banned temporarily or permanently that didn't deserve it, that would be worth looking into.   Mikie and AGD?  I'm surprised Billy and everyone displayed the patience with them that they did.

Affirmative. Those people at the Hoffman had no right discussing anything related to other (read: this) board, in public. It's really bizarre that they would question the moderation of Smiley Smile forum - what do they care? They're happy posting there then deal with it. It's even worse to single out guitarfool when he repeatedly explained that every decision is made by 3 mods. I'd assume the posters over there imagine things where they aren't. It's understandable that GF would like to stand for and defend himself. Who would like to find out people actually had been saying sth. unflattering and untrue about them at different place(s)? It's not cool.

Something that I think needs to be addressed is that Guitarfool came under a lot of scrutiny after the Mikie and Runnersdialzero bans. I think the consensus among many vocal posters was that these two posters were unfairly banned by Guitarfool (that he was the driving force behind those bans).

Subsequently he became a target for a lot of potshots, he was constantly backed into corners by some posters, and thus I think Guitarfool became rightfully defensive. He was called out on Beach Boys Britain by Andrew G Doe for being "too thin skinned, not even close to impartial", pursuing "vendettas at brain-numbing length and "not above trying to disrupt a thread by introducing irrelevant points". Keep in mind these points were made after he was unfairly vilified for supposedly banning Runners/Mikie on his own volition. Guitarfool then reopened a locked thread to defend that specific charge made by Andrew, and he was further vilified for doing that (thus, upon one or two other similar instances, I think people attempt to make the case that he abuses his power).

I think many bans that have occurred here recently are much like the one regarding this very thread: the specific reasons have been kept mostly secretive. This leaves room for a lot of speculation about the nature of the bans. That in mind, it has been made crystal clear that ALL bans are made by collective decision among the mods. Also keep in mind that months ago Billy made it clear that there was no one he saw on the permanent ban list that he wanted back on this forum. I'm not sure what Runnersdialzero did to deserve a ban - and I honestly miss the guy. He would more than always make me laugh a lot. That being said, I have the utmost respect for the decisions that Billy, Guitarfool, and Smile Holland made, and trust their judgement.

I'm also not specifically sure what Mikie did to get banned. I conversed with him on occasion, and we PM'd from time to time. I never had a run-in that I remember with the guy. That being said, I found it disgusting when I saw Debbie KL get harassed in nearly every thread she went to by Mikie and Mike's Beard. I'm sure whatever Mikie got banned for it was enough for Billy to cut the cord. And given the years of great service that Billy has given this board, I think we all need to respect his integrity regarding these decisions.

This has been a crazy four+ years of Beach Boys fandom - the Smile Sessions came out, Beach Boys reunion occurred (tour and album), some three solo albums were released by Brian, many statements were made by Mike that resulted in controversy, the C50 breakup, etc etc. SO much has gone on here that has created a lot of turmoil on this forum. We're all passionate about this band, many of us do have a favorite side (even if some don't want to admit it), and that creates a breeding ground for ban-able offenses.

Anyways, my point is that the correlation between all that has gone on in the Beach Boys world and an active mod newly joining the ranks cannot be overlooked. Is Guitarfool a perfect mod? I don't think anyone can be a perfect mod. But given the atmosphere of this fandom (and the personalities that we interact with daily here) I think that Smile Holland, Guitarfool, Lowbacca, and Billy have tried to handle each and every dicey situation the best that they can.

Craig is the best thing to ever happen to this board because there has been a ton of toxicity that has been perpetrated by a certain circle that is now being dealt with. Anybody who has a problem with Craig, or any of the mods and how they do their job should leave instead of obsessing over a decision that is likely not going to reversed.

I think this thread is a terrible place to discuss Guitarfool's tenure as a moderator, as it is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. However, I think we should discuss Guitarfool's tenure as moderator elsewhere.

 :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup

Billy, Craig wrote a damn treatise above my reply. To take that long to read it, I had to reply.

As for this thread alone, if people just wanted to express whether they agree with it or not, that is one thing, but allowing for all of the speculation and all, when the banned cannot defend themselves is not fair. That was all I was getting at. Sad that it is becoming a board civil war in here.

I am claiming the movie rights.

If the banned have anything to say, they can send an email, and the moderators can decide if it can or should be published here.  Mikie has already contacted me recently by email, and I'd be glad to check with him to see if he would like to be represented here by his comments to me.