The Smiley Smile Message Board

It seems to me that from around 1978 on Dennis became a pretty poor drummer in live concerts. Especially at the Knebworth 1980 concert, and pretty much every live recording that I have heard from that period on. I was just watching the Seattle 1983 video and I was surprised at just how bad he was playing. He just seemed to be banging away, with no real regard to being "technically correct". One every uptempo song he seemed to play basically the same cymbal and drum "crash, boom, crash, boom etc" beat. What do you guys think? Did his alcoholism and drug problems make him playing get worse over time?

He played some great stuff on their early records and in early live performances. Like the TAMI Show.

Seems like he wasn't the same drummer towards the end. Could have something to do with the various injuries to his hands & feet throughout the years, but I'm sure there are more reasons. Some concerts it doesn't even look like his drum set is even set up with mics.

On the Seattle 1983 film, Mike Kowalski plays on a second drum kit along with Dennis, but I can't really make out two distinct drummers at once.

With all respect, he was never a great drummer. He played really good live in the late 60's/early 70's, but after his hand injury, kind of lost it. He drummed with a lot of energy, fun to watch, but technically, played really poor. Knebworth for example, Keith Moon-energy, but otherwise, not that great. TAMI Show? Full power, but a simple backbeat.

Dennis was a great drummer!

If you just got home from a Neil Peart drum clinic at Guitar Center and you pop in the Knebworth DVD, sure, you'll think he sucks, but he played what was right and good for the Beach Boys, and he was completely in tune with Brian's really heavy bottom-y, rolling  piano/songwriting style.

Dennis was pretty much self taught and he often bettered live what guys like Hal Blaine and Jim Gordon put down in the studio as professional session musicians. Not to mention all the great tracks he, himself provided for many many great Beach Boys songs.

Sure, he was more of a clubber than an "artist" but his playing simply felt good! Watching him on the Knebworth DVD, I think he kicks ass. He was a bit sloppy, sure, but he was doing a lot of goofing off and playing around, which affected his playing a bit, but it was a live gig and they all seemed to be having fun. I'm sure this translated to the audience.... Therefore Dennis was doing his job and doing it well!

It's funny how the best drummers: the most necessary and useful, are the ones who can play a simple straight beat, not lose it, and make it feel really good. But no one talks about them or charts out their playing in drum magazines.... But who really cares?

I don't often use such rudimentary terms to describe my disdain for any specific musician, but Neil Peart fucking sucks. Yes, I know he's a technical wizard. Yes, I know he has about two dozen different drums in his setup. His playing is boring as fucking hell.

I'd put Dennis in the same league as Ringo Starr - perfect drummer for the band they were in.

I get a real kick out of watching Dennis drum on the Knebworth DVD. Man is he hitting those skins hard or what? The intro to California Girls is priceless... ***BUH BUH BUH BUH BUH*** I really like his drumming style throughout his career but I'm sure there were plenty of concerts where he was too far out of it and played quite sloppy (hence the extra/sober drummer).

Trying not to steer away from the topic at hand... but Ringo was a freaking awesome drummer. I think his playing and influence goes beyond being the "perfect drummer for the band he was in". Not saying that Mike's Beard was leaning towards it, but I've never understood the "Ringo was an amateur drummer" argument.

Sorry, I may have taken that the wrong way.  :-[
They were perfect drummers for the band they were in... which were THE perfect bands.

Don't know about the reasons, but -

I am not fond of his work on the 1973 live set. Esp. in songs like 'Help Me Rhonda', he smashes the entire song to smithereens (in an insensitive way). Perhaps other songs by other artists fare better by such an approach, but the BBs catalogue deserves better, IMHO.

Wasn't Ricky Fataar drumming for them in 1973?

Ai... should I stand corrected? AGD, help!

That's Ricky Fataar, not Dennis.  MILES different drummer.  And, it has been discussed on other forums, there's some question whether his approach was superior to Dennis' on the older material.

I never get tired of banging this drum (so to speak):  Dennis Wilson was one of my very favorite drummers.  Why?  Because he understood that a drummer needs to know four things:  start, 2, 4, end.  That's ALL that is necessary, about 75% of the time.  And Dennis could make a simple drum part sound like the end of the friggin' world.

Let me show you why Dennis was a great drummer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJFd_i2gOdk -- "Only With You" on the HOLLAND album.  The drums are understated, basic.  And Ricky sounds bored out of his mind, even though he plays beautifully.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoYk2mgE8A8 -- "I Wanna Pick You Up" on the LOVE YOU album.  Dennis this time.  The drums are even MORE basic.  And yet they SLAM.  And the whole track slams.  Dennis doesn't have the chops to play footsy with the beat.  So he just puts everything he has into what he can do.  (It didn't seem fair to point to the monster kick snare of "Honkin' Down The Highway" -- that's almost cheating)

Now I grant you, some of the difference is in Earle Mankey's engineering skills, but even so, you need a particular kind of drummer with a particular kind of attitude to get that slamming of a sound.  Part of what makes it slam is the simplicity, but you can't just zone out.  You have to really lay into the drums and also want to play like that.  I can tell you this because when I want that kind of sound on my own records...I play it myself!  Because I cannot find a "real" drummer who understands how to do it.  And live?  Yeah, he was erratic, but he also added fire.  When he was on, he was amazing.  Sadly, the on days were more and more rare from 1980 on...but even on KNEBWORTH, what he loses on technical points (and keep in mind he'd only been back in the band for a very short time at that point), he gains in just making the band compelling.

Don't believe me?  Then let me play for you one of the greatest drummers of all time, Mr. Al Jackson, Jr.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l73FkH3v7yg

Technically, he and Dennis are on complete opposite sides of the spectrum.  But they accomplish the same thing with the same approach.  Keep it simple, keep the beat, and kill it.  It slams.

My two favorite drummers in rock 'n' roll.  I guarantee you with either of those guys behind the skins, the whole room is a movin'.

Re: Ringo...they say his time was nearly flawless.  And man, that's the whole point, isn't it?  I mean, I know professional drummers that can play amazing fills but can't really keep time very well.

Great posts, Adam.  I agree 100%.  Rock n' roll was never about technical skills (until maybe the prog/fusion era, which most would say isn't really r n' r...I shan't go there).  It was about having fun and kickin' ass.  Yeah, Dennis, man.  He had it.  I loved the days when you could listen to a drummer and know immediately who it was.  Dennis, Ringo, Bonham, Moon.  You don't hear guys like that anymore.

I think I read it in the Preiss book, Dorinda Morgan said something along  the lines, she found it refreshing that Dennis played without a lot of fills that so many drummers ,recording at her studio ,were using at the time.


Sometimes less is more.

Two great examples of great late-period Dennis live drumming:  the Midnight Special (1979, especially on Good Vibrations and Rock 'n' Roll Music), and Washington D.C. (1980, especially Sloop John B. for instance...a drummer friend of mine saw that and said, "He was a GREAT drummer").  Also Long Beach 1981 (Do It Again, School Days).   Unfortuantely he was drunk at a lot of the post 1977 shows, but those examples IMO show him playing with fire and gusto.

Testify!!!!  8)

Re: Ringo, was it John who, when asked if Ringo was the best drummer in the world, laughed and said "Ringo isn't even the best drummer in the Beatles!"

I have to disagree here. I think Neil Peart is one of the most exciting drummers I have ever seen live in concert. Other favorite drummers of mine include Ringo, Bill Bruford, any of Zappa's drummers from about 1973 on, Bonham, Moon, etc. And I enjoy DW's performances on the Long Beach '81 and Seattle '83 shows.

Least favorite drummers? How about Tommy Lee from Motley Crue and Lars Ulrich from Metallica? Both are very overrated in my opinion. Also the double drumming of the Grateful Dead used to disintegrate in concert a lot. Nick Mason is kind of boring on drums but I still loves me some Floyd. Peter Chris was very sloppy but that was supposed to be alcohol induced. Some of the worst drumming I have seen (and heard) was John Lennon in the Let It Be movie trying to play along with "Octopus's Garden".

For some great Dennis drumming, how about "When I Grow Up (To Be Man)" and "Girl Don't Tell Me"?

Its fun to talk about Dennis' drumming...but the way this thread premise is posed seems kind of stupid to me. try this...

WAS BRIAN A GOOD SINGER?

It seems to me that from around 1976 on Brian became a pretty poor singer in live concerts. Especially at the Queen Mary 1981 concert, and pretty much every live recording that I have heard from that period on. etc... etc... etc...

Back to the subject at hand...Dennis was a great drummer. His feel and power were among the best in 60's/'70's rock. Watch the '69 Olympia concert... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vJT5TyMEwI
His drumming has been complimented by so many other drummers (Hal Blaine, Max Weinberg, Taylor Hawkins etc...) not to mention Bobby Fig. Ricky F. and Mike K. who all loved the way Dennis played. But I don't need any expert to tell me he was good. The way he played always felt right. It enhanced the music and never got in the way. It was never about technique, he didn't really have any, he just played with heart. To me a concert like Knebworth '80 illustrates that he was by far the most passionate Beach Boy, and to watch him play, sloppy as it may be at times, is pure rock and roll joy. He gave the Beach Boys their testicles for sure. I was watching Seattle '83 with a friend, and Dennis is not in good shape, his stamina is gone...but we were laughing at how hard Mike Kowalski was working to keep up with Dennis, who just floors it on every song, with the least amount of wasted motion...he just powers his way through. Dennis was at his best from mid '64 until Brian started making him play soft in '66. And then again he was great from '68 when they got a brass section until '71 when he hurt his hand. When he comes back he's pretty damn good from '75 until '80 or '81...then its down hill for sure. But to ask "Is Dennis A Good Drummer?" Ask yourself this...do you like the drums on the studio recordings of these songs?
Surfer Girl
Catch A Wave
Hawaii
Little Saint Nick
The Warmth of The Sun
Don't Worry Baby
I Get Around
All Summer Long
Little Honda
Wendy
Girls On The Beach
Dance Dance Dance
When I Grow Up To Be A Man
Then I Kissed Her
Girl Don't Tell Me
You're So Good To Me
That's Not Me
I Can Hear Music
and on and on and on...

Dennis plays the drums on all of those classic songs, and so many more before and after the ones I listed.

Brian sang real good on those songs too...so ...Was Brian a good singer? Yes.

I love Ringo's drumming style. His drums on "Helter Skelter" blows me away everytime I hear it! Technically it's pretty bad and many a session drummer would cringe at it but no one else would think to place those big booming tom tom fills where he does. Saying that, it helped that Macca was such an amazing bassist that he helped elevate much of Mr. Starky's playing.  If you want to talk about underrated drummers, Mick Avory of The Kinks was a brilliant drummer, very unique and inventive in his style.

My two cents:

Dennis was one hell of a Rock'n'Roll-drummer. Perfect feeling and rhythm for that kind of music and the rhythm is the foundation for everything.
Certainly miles away from technical perfection, but no one argues that D.J. Fontana was great for Elvis' 50s stuff while he never ever comes close to Ronnie Tutt (one of the very best drummers I ever heard) to this day. Just listen to "Read teddy". Tutt also rocked, but in a different way, using more than just the basics.


And I'd like to say "hooray !" for two other great and legendary drummers: Hal Blaine and Buddy Harman

exactly. he was just as good as ringo. Im a drummer myself and I think dennis was very underrated, he was great.

Ringo and Dennis are actually similar drummers in some respects--they both kept it simple when they needed it to (Ringo's very tasteful when he does add in some fills) and of course, very deep pockets for both of them. Ringo has a bit more flash/polish, but emotionally it's a dead heat---they are both terrific.

Ringo is perhaps the greatest rock and roll/pop drummer of all time!

I dare ANY drummer (Neil Peart types/Tony Williams types included) to sit down cold and attempt to do what Ringo does in "Oh Darlin" Those insane fills in the build ups! I've been playing drums for about 20 years and can't figure out what the merda the guy's doing, but it feels soooooo great and kicks so much ass! I don't know anyone who can play those parts (aside from this one guy on youtube) Now, if that's not a clue as to what makes a good drummer or not, I dunno what is.

I've blathered it before, but I really believe Ringo and Dennis both INVENTED modern rock drumming! Before those guys burst on the scene, drummers in rock and roll were mostly jazz or big band guys slumming it and playing traditional grip with a very light snare/kick, but heavy ride action. Then kids everywhere are suddenly watching Dennis and Ringo on TV where it's all about the forceful kick and cracking upbeat on the snare!!! How many kids saw these cats and decided to take up the drums???

I rest my case.

So, maybe the real discussion should be: is Mike a good singer???

J/K

I think "was Brian a good singer?" would be an interesting thread, actually.  In light of what's happened to his voice in the intervening years, people have taken a closer look at his '60s recordings and pointed out that he always had his flaws, but he made it work a certain way in his '20s that's compelling.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Erik -- I'm only a mid-level Beatles obsessive -- but wasn't Ringo left handed?  And that's why a lot of his fills are ass-backwards?

Come to think of it, and we have Dennis, who is right handed, playing left hand to the hi-hat. So both these guys basically played the drums backwards.  This probably had something to do with the less is more attitude.  There were probably some things they couldn't do (I play drums the same way Dennis does, albeit poorly, and I can testify that a lot of finesse stuff goes out the window when your weak hand is playing the hi-hat, but your snare kills).

Eric H...that is a very perceptive post. I agree that the visual image and sound of "rock drummer" really begins with Ringo and Dennis. I doubt many kids were wishing they were Dave Clark or Charlie Watts, not because the DC5 and Stones records weren't great, they were...but the thing that Ringo and Dennis had is that they both had natural charisma and their drumming styles projected it. While Clark seemed too show bizzy and Watts looked like he was falling asleep...Ringo and Dennis seemed natural, engaged, into it, but not phony at all...and they didn't feel like backline support...they seemed like equals in their band...and the camera loved them that's for sure. Everybody copied them. Keith Moon died his hair blond cause he wanted to be Dennis.

I'm as big a Dennis fan as there is, and I know the Beatles aren't real popular with many on this board, but I'd have to agree with Eric that Ringo is the top guy. Ringo had a way of swinging that was unmatched in rock. His early fills could be fairly clunky (see Please Please Me) but he had a really unique and sparkly sound and he always locked in with McCartney which gave the Beatles a great feel. Dennis was way more erratic, and he rarely locked in with anybody, including himself. He was like a wild horse, hard to ride, but if you could stay with him it was going to be fun!! Check out Dance Dance Dance from the TAMI Show...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F74pEzgTA8I
Some people might view this as a disaster as Dennis has no interest in locking in, he's just balls out, see if you can stay with me. He PUSHES the band like a race car barely able to make the next corner. That was Dennis. He could dial all that back and play it cool, as in another Dance Dance Dance example here...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ug0riKTwSaE&feature=related Dennis played great on many studio tracks, and his feel, when somewhat contained, is truly great. But his LIVE preference in the early days was to go crazy back there. That probably drove Brian nuts right?

Dennis and Ringo were similar in that they moved some of the main focus onto The Drummer in a band, and as many of you said, they were perfect for their respective band's style. But Ringo was reliable and comical, Dennis was a sex beast wild man. I think the feel/sound of Ringo and the aura/image of Dennis ended being the blueprint for the quintessential rock drummer.

Adam, you're right: Ringo was a left handed drummer who played "right handed" and Dennis essential played some modified "left handed" technique while being right handed.

I think in Dennis case, he probably just felt he could whack the snare a whole lot harder with his right hand. He was a strong guy who played sports/knew how to toss a ball, so it probably felt natural to nail the upbeat down with his stronger hand.

The conventional drumming ethos is that you should use your good hand for all the complicated triplet crap on the ride/hi-hat and for complicated flailing fills/rolls that you start with (and end with) your good hand.... More of a jazz ethos really, as I've said before, the snare was always more of an accent instrument than the main thing your whole attack is built around, as is the case with rock/pop!

It's funny. I'm left handed and have always played a right handed set, and so many years of this have made my right hand much more coordinated than my left!!!!

Jon, maybe you can help: there's this footage that used to be on youtube where the Beach Boys are playing in Hawaii (can't remember what island) in, I think 1980! Dennis is amazingly solid in this footage. He shaven and looking great. The band is really sloppy otherwise, but Dennis is really on it! Probably the best I've seen him play.

If I could find these clips, I'd post them as irrefutable proof the guy could PLAY when he focused.

I think you're referring to the Mike Douglas show, 1980, filmed on Waikiki beach. Dennis is wearing a visor. Bruce is there on piano, Bobby F. is there too playing percussion. Some of the '76 Its OK footage from Anaheim is a good example that Dennis was solid in those days too. I have a '77 L.A. Forum show on video that has a performance of Roller Skating Child in which Dennis is a virtual rock-beat machine, his snare hits are like canons going off, and the band sounds so damn good around him. He could definitely play.

Man, I love that 76 "It's OK" footage!

My favorite Beach Boys period, I must admit.

Jon might correct me on this, but I would argue that Dennis became much more of a "lock" player after he came back in '74.  I love the groove on a lot of the '76-77 Wilson-only basics.  It may be something similar to the Def Leppard situation (albeit much less drastic) where he had less ability to do fills because of his hand injury, and became more beat-focused.  I'm just speculating, but to me the '70s Dennis has much more of a pocket than pre-accident Dennis.  A lot of what I love about his drumming is his playing in the late '70s.

Yeah, me neither.  Ringo's one of the best ever.  I think most drummers concede that as well.  Wasn't really flashy but an awesome drummer.  My favorite is probably "Day Tripper" whoo the drums are great on that. 

Yeah, I listened to his famous 'solo' on Golden Slumbers/The End the other day, there's not much to it but the whole while in the background "bapbapbapbapbapbapbapbapbapbapbapbapbap" dead on some wildass tempo while he solos around it.  Fantastic at keeping the beat steady.  I read an article once praising his drumming, and they claimed that out of all the studio tapes and all the takes that broke apart because somebody screwed something up, it was only Ringo 2 or 3 times.  Also they lauded his ability to play the different styles the guys wrote, and especially John's stuff.  John had strange time signatures on many of his songs, and even had one or two that dropped a beat out in the middle of the track apparently?  Not sure if it was spliced that way or just written that way.  I know what song they're talking about but can't think of it right now, it misses a beat right in the middle of the song. 

Anways, simple tricks anybody can learn but Ringo developed those tracks. 

Back to Dennis, the Beach Boys didn't need the worlds greatest drummer, he was a hell of an asset to the band and became as good as he needed to be.  A lot of the later sloppy drumming he did live appeared to me to be more based on him screwing around, then him not being capable of pulling it off.  Also didn't Hal Blaine claim he was a great drummer?  I'll take that endorsement anyday. 

You are right, his locking capability actually started surfacing more in '68 to '71, and definitely was there in '75 - '77, maybe for the very reason you stated. it became a kind of hit and miss(no pun) thing once he was so substance addled, but you could still see it in there, just not as consistent. My "wild horse" comparison really pertains to 1964 Dennis vs. 1964 Ringo. Nothing is black and white, but Dennis did have pocket player flair as well. He just had consistency issues.

Yes, that's John for you.  An incredibly dry sense of Humour, and one of his best quotes.  John loved Ringo however and I'm sure intended it as a joke.  Didn't he (and the Beatles) basically beg Ringo to be in the Beatles?  In Liverpool Ringo was the man, everybody wanted him in their band.  

John did an interview with Rolling Stone (the day? a few days?) shortly before he died.  When asked about Ringo he said "Ringo's a Damn Good Drummer.  He was always a good drummer.  He's not technically good, but I think Ringo's drumming is underrated the same way Paul's Bass playing is underrated.  Paul and Ringo stand up anywhere with any of the rock musicians"

Still one of the greatest quotes of all time though, lol.  

In my opinion, the greatest thing about Ringo's playing is it's selfless.  He never told a single person he was a great drummer.  He never tried to be showy or over the top, never soloed.  When John came to him and wanted to do something like "I'm Only Sleeping", Ringo played it the way John wrote it.  When Paul brought him "Let it Be", Ringo played it the way Paul wrote it.  When George brought him songs with Sitars and indian instruments, again Ringo played it the way George wrote it.  Who the hell else would have pulled all that off?  His ability to make his job not about himself but about the song is admirable.  

I really like mr. Stebbins comments on this, well said. 

Dennis also provided some really really good session guy type drumming for the 15 Big Ones album. I know no one expects anything great drum-wise on that album, but he does some really cool stuff, and more interesting little fills than usual. Listening to him on A Casual Look, for instance, always makes me smile. What he does coming out of the bridge is pure magic!

Tony Williams, as in Miles Davis Quintet? I hope you meant to say there is a Neil Peart type, and there is a separate Tony Williams type. Because certainly they can't be considered the same type. What Williams was doing on, say, Miles Smiles, is just fabulous. Sure, he was technically brilliant, but also every bit as sympathetic as a Ringo Starr. Generally speaking, though, I'm in the camp of the feel-drummers. Technical drumming is overwhelmingly dull to me. (Ditto for most technical rock guitar, keyboard, or anything else, though. I respect it ... I just don't enjoy it.)

Yes, there certainly IS a Neal Peart type! Have you ever had the displeasure of holding open drummer auditions? Trust me: they come out of the woodwork!

I only mentioned Tony Williams as a jazz type and because, in my opinion, he's the greatest drummer ever to live.

Whew. I just wanted to make sure you didn't think those two were one and the same type.

Ha! Neal Peart wishes they were of the same type!!!

Tony was the greatest! Could any other drummer of his technical ability ever manage to just play that simple hi-hat groove on 98% of the In A Silent Way album???

I think that 'Rain' showcases Ringo at his best!

He's great on "Rain".  I've also always loved how he stops on a dime and switches time signatures in "She Said, She Said".  Mike Portnoy once said that the drum part to "Everybody's Got Something To Hide Except For Me & My Monkey" was among the most difficult parts he's ever had to learn.

Plus, lest we forget, Ringo looked really cool in the Help! movie when he's playing in the studio with a cigarette hanging out of his mouth!

Let's not forget, too, that both Ringo and Dennis excelled at putting across their PERSONALITY in those mid-60s performances and interviews. Ringo was one of the funniest of the Beatles (hell, he's the star of Hard Day's Night). Dennis was the most magnetic of the BBs, and did some serious acting (Two Lane Blacktop).

Each of them understood, in a really simple way, the showmanship of being the man behind the drums, and each had a simple, open charisma that included everyone. Lennon, for example, was snarky -- he obviously had contempt for a certain kind of Beatlefan. And Mike, in later years, certainly made generalizations about uberfans of the BBs' experimental material. But both Dennis and Ringo liked nearly everything their bands did -- and really, each was the biggest fan of their respective bands inside the bands!

I mean, Dennis sacrificed a solo career to stay with his group. Ringo would have stayed in the Beatles forever. They both are, in a way, the emblems of their groups.

I'm not musically knowledgable enough to comment on the drumming techniques, but the Beach Boys had an incredible live energy when Dennis was drumming that has gone unmatched since his death in '83. Even concerts in the early 80's when he was under the influence, the band could still rock! They never rocked quite the same way ever again. He brought a great energy the way he pounded the drums. For my money, Bobby F. comes the closest, but Dennis's contribution will be forever measured by the fact the BB never again sounded the same live with that energy  after his death

greatestdrummerinthehistoryofmusicwastheoneandonly                 buddyrich    endofstory

This thread makes me all kinds of happy.

No one can deny the greatness of Mr. Buddy Rich!  ;D


This thread is awesome as Dennis and Ringo can never ever get enough props!

Let's not forget for a second that the Beatle who got the most fan mail was and forever be Ringo!!!!

This brings up a really interesting larger aesthetic and almost ethical discussion:  What does it mean to be "good" at something?  Is there a difference between excellence and goodness?  Can we separate being a good musician from being a musician that we like, or evokes an emotional response?

First we have to define what music is "for".  When a person plays music, why do they do it?  To satisfy themselves?  To satisfy others?  To glorify God, or to celebrate the harmony of nature if you prefer?  If you give a recital and nobody comes, was it still worth doing?

Did Dennis play drums because it was fulfilling to him personally?  We know he liked bringing music to people.  So he was certainly good at that.  But where does excellence come in here?  I feel like that would be being good for the sake of being good, which Dennis certainly was not.  I would not look at Neal Peart here, but I would turn to the classical world, where musicians reach levels of incredible skill, but are also participating in a very grand and long tradition going back for a millennium, at least.  That type of musician must study in a very peculiar way for many years, and work at it in a different way than a rock or jazz guy would, even if their skill levels are very similar.  But it takes a certain kind of excellence to learn and interpret certain classical music, let us say, a dense fugal Handel masterpiece, which I think transcends being a "good" or "bad" musician.

Now, that said, I think this discussion is well framed thinking teleologically.  Each musician fulfills the end appropriate for each.  And the end is always going to have something to do with human response.  And I certainly think Dennis does that as well as anybody, on Drums, on Keys, singing, whatever.  And that's an important criterion, albeit a somewhat more subjective one than anybody is comfortable with.

Anyway, there you go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8-uoTD4fMQ&feature=related

I've never paid attention to Ringo's drumming on Rain, I'll relisten.  Everytime I hear that song, I'm too busy going out of my mind and grinning listening to Paul's incredible bassline.  In my opinion, the best thing he ever played.  

Back to Dennis, I like the comment about how he (and Ringo) let their charisma bleed through into their music.  Dennis is one of those people that even though he made some bad decisions at points in his life, you still love the guy and want the best for him.  I think you'd be hard pressed to find anybody with a bad word to say about Dennis (and if you did find somebody, I'll bet Dennis took his woman or something).  He's just one of those people who's SO cool, that they're irresistable.  Once you get a dose of that, it's impossible to listen to Dennis's music without appreciating it.  

Touche, but aren't most musicians insane merdaholes from time to time?

Well, I'd say with rock and roll: there really isn't such a thing as "good"!

Isn't rock and roll all about what you Do rather than what you CAN do?

Interesting.  If that's true, than that leaves only a few other options.  If there is no good with rock and roll, that means there is only the opposite, only something totally neutral, or some mixture of both.  If there is only bad, then why would anybody listen?  Is neutrality really possible?  Dennis simply was a drummer.  There is no value.  But if there is no value, again, why listen?

If Rock and Roll is about what you DO, then isn't it possible to do it well, or badly?

I don't know the answer to these questions, necessarily, but I'm always interested in defining "good".

I think I just meant that for a rock and roll musician what you DO is ultimately more important than what you're capable of doing. Meaning just because you CAN play a hundred scales on guitar in the space of 30 seconds, it doesn't mean that you should always do that and maybe sometimes a simple chord would be a million times more effective! So, a player who has the sense to just play the right chord is perhaps a lot more valuable than one who will insist on demonstrating what their technical capability is at all times.

It is extremely difficult to find drummers who will play as simply as Dennis did. Well, you can find them or force them to play that way, but for them to mean it like Dennis did: well, that's a whole lot harder to come across....

But Dennis is unique. He played drums, and I'm sure it was fun, and was his part in the family business, but I think Dennis first and foremost LIVED for a living. After that, he was a singer/songwriter, then a drummer.

Good shmood.  "Good" is down to the opinion of the beholder.   Do you like it?  Does it move you?  Make you wanna jump up and shout "Yeah!"  Does it do anything for you?  Then it's good.  Period.  No matter what anyone else says.   The most basic three chord stuff (Ramones for example) can be as "good", "great", whatever, as any more complex, virtuosity (Hendrix, Rush, whatever).  
Dennis was a capable drummer at his best.  His musical talents went way beyond that though.  Ringo was way more than just capable - he was excellent, with moments of brilliance.  Totally underrated.  

another great "solo" performance by Buddy. ;)

Ricky Fataar could play circles around Dennis Wilson. I saw Ricky play live with the Beach Boys three times in 1973 and 1974. The guy could really play. I remembering asking a girlfriend who went to the early concerts with me, "Who is this guy"? I never knew for a long time why Dennis was standing up front and not behind the drums. But Ricky rocked the joint!

From 1975 to 1982 I saw Dennis play and he usually hit the skins very hard. It was a blast watching him play. When he was intoxicated, he had trouble keeping time (see the 1980 Washington HBO special or Queen Mary '81 for examples) but he was still a lot of fun to watch. You had to be there. The wimin LOVED the guy and when he stood up, they screamed bloody murder! I can see why some of you don't think he was that great of technical drummer, but when the Boys first came on stage and he sauntered across it then jumped up on the drum riser, the sound of his drums boomed across the P.A. system and really rocked the place. California Girls was usually the first song and people stood up for the first 3 0r 4 songs then sat down. I enjoyed the hell out of watching Dennis.

When I think of Dennis playing with the Boys, I think immediately of those live shows in the 70's in San Francisco, Oakland, and Sacramento. I also think of his playing on the March '64 Lost Concert footage (kinda back asswards) and the '64 concert album.

Too bad Brian didn't ever hire this guy onto a session:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0V4Aqs2D48&feature=related

Was Dennis a good drummer? One of the things that made me start to ask myself that question  was the version of "Don't Worry Baby" from Long Beach, 1981. First of all, he plays the beat for "Be My Baby". It kind of fits...but it's not the proper beat/rhythm for the song. Also, before the chorus of "Don't Worry Baby", he plays the exact same little drum fill. Every single time right before the chorus starts. He plays the same thing...the exact same amount of beats.

Ricky Fataar also played the Don't Worry Baby beat "wrong" on the In Concert album. Carl also sang the chorus "wrong"

In fact, live The Beach Boys almost never stuck to what was on the recording drum-wise! Lots of bands/drummers don't.

BTW, hasn't Bob Dylan played just about all his songs "wrong" at every single show he's ever played??

Is there much info out there on what equipment Dennis used/preferred? I've been listening to Live in London recently and it's just hit me how killer that snare sounds.

Just for context's sake, here's the recording in question on the off chance that somebody hasn't heard it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4EktgvCE1A

Dennis played the drums on the BB's hit recording of Don't Worry Baby in '64, so i guess if anyone on earth is at liberty to play it "wrong" it would be him.

Check, and mate.  ;D

Man, I really envy you.  ;D I just got a nice collection of 1970's shows that they did. I'd have to say that 1970-1975 is now probably my favorite period for concerts.

Anyone to criticize Dennis' drumming obviously isnt a drummer. Dennis Wilson was and is the reason I picked up a pair of drumsticks. f*** technical sh*t; Dennis was and will forever be the definitive rock drummer in my book. RIP.

Living in L.A., I meet random people who encountered Dennis and have a story about him ALL THE TIME.  Not just in the music world, just totally random stuff including two of the lawyers that worked at the law firm I used to work for.  He seemed to bump into half the people that lived in Southern California at one point or another.  And yeah, EVERYBODY loved the guy.

Collect 'em all! Trade 'em with your friends! It was (in my opinion) the best time to be a Beach Boys fan. I do wish I'd seen a few of the '70 - '72 shows like some of the posters here did.

One of my favorite Dennis moments was in Oakland. He stands up, surveys the crowd, and says real close into the mic: "Look at all the big t*ts!". I kid you not. The crowd roared! 

  To my personal taste in music,it's not how fast you are,how you can bend notes,how much range you have,but what sounds good. Just because you can ,doesn't mean you should. So many singers today twist and bend notes and ruin any form of melody. And drumming and guitar playing it's the same thing. You can over sing,over drum and over shred.   
  Dennis is GREAT!

I'm a drummer myself, and while I do love the way Dennis played most of the time, there are times when he let the tempo drift, and not necessarily in a good way.  I'm thinking of things like "Farmer's Daughter," where he begins to slow down halfway through.  Probably not something non-drummer would necessarily notice though.   

Funny, Tommy always reminds me of Dennis, not only because of the simple playing, more than that Tommy has a great heart too and is like Denny the crowd favourite and even when he talks he sounds a bit like him.  I think Lars Urlich was great in the eighties, when I first listened to albums like Master of Puppets or And Justice For All I thought he might be the best. Nowadays he does not deliver that passion and sound anymore. 

I think the mentioned Long Beach and Hawaii performances in the early eighties really rule. BTW This is the only time I saw Dennis playing drums on Help Me Rhonda after the mid-seventies.  Dennis IS rock and roll. In my perfect rock band he would be in with Bon Scott providing vocals, Keith Richards playing guitar and Cliff Burton bass. They are all not the best (with the exception of the latter maybe ) but they really show the passion and so stand for rock and roll. 

My second favourite drummer would be Eric Carr.

Am I the only one here who suspects the Muppet character Animal was inspired by Dennis Wilson and Keith Moon?  ;D

:drumroll

"Sahhhh-reeeeeen!"

I love this thread , and have noticed that it appears there are a number of Drummers in our ranks  ;D

Peter Chris and Eric Carr are two of the greats as well!

Peter Chris is a great example of a flashy guy with tons of drums but who still played loose and swung and played with a lot of heart and knew damn well when to simplify!

BTW, my mom was at the TAMI show with a bunch of her girlfriends, and they apparently split after the Beach Boys because they all just went to see Dennis and nothing more  :p

Wow, normally I hate fantasy band ideas, but what an interesting band that would be!

That's the thing about Dennis' 2/4 style...you can plug it into almost any situation and it's gonna work.  Neil Peart not so much.

One of the funniest things I ever heard was, Neil Peart had to go take lessons from some Uber Drum Guru guy just to go back to square one and be able to strip it down and play simple!

Peter Criss couldnt play in time. The live stuff is horrible.

I dunno. KISS ALIVE seemed to make boatloads of people happy enough, complete with out-of-time drumming.

I think it's pretty well established Animal was based partly on Keith... not considered Dennis but yes, good chance.

I think the people who care the most about song meter/time are producers and guys programming stuff: "beats per minute" types. Some of my favorite live stuff goes in and out of time, and I get a kick out of it because it means the drummer was enthused or the band was getting caught up in the enjoyment of playing live.

Not that there aren't examples of someone just being sloppy, but still.....

When Ive gone to see a band play live I want to hear the song as it was recorded that is the drummer plays consistently in his tempo.

BK

Well, we don't always get what we want!

Music is an organic experience played by humans. If you're in a bad mood it will affect how you play, just as being in a good mood will!

Look at Money by Pink Floyd: when it comes back from all the solos/breakdowns it's about twice as fast as they started it, but who's complaining? Listen to the various live takes of the song floating around, and the meter is more consistent? Therefore, why the hell did they keep and issue a take for the album that went up in meter? Because it feels great and kicks ass, that's why!

I guess Im biased because Ive been playing the drums since 1982. When I play live I try to keep the tempo consistent because its the audience that is paying me to play music that will help them get away from their problems for a couple of hours and for me to let my mood affect my playing wouldnt be professional.

That's certainly one way of looking at it, and is a responsible and professional approach, and correct for I'd say 90% of the experience. And I'm probably just making excuses for drummers I like but who don't have perfect meter. But the other part of me says the audience, by and large, don't really care about such things. We all love Dennis therefore he could literally fall over his drums and we'd still be clapping. Musicians are people and a good portion of why we give a damn is because it's just people communicating something to us and creating an even on stage/on record/whatever.

I agree with what you are saying up to a point. My only contention is this. If the drummers tempo is not consistent then the whole song will not sound right as it is being played live.  True Ive seen the audience (people in the bar) dancing away because they were too drunk to stop and say, " Hey this sounds like crap"!!!

Trust me, I know what you mean. I've seen some Grateful Dead shows where someone would start a song WAY too slow or fast and the band would kinda have to commit to playing it at that tempo and it was sometimes very painful to witness. Micky Hart would usually start playing faster in order to pick it up and Bill would be trying to figure out what Phil or Bob were yelling at him, and it would be a mess..... But then they'd come together and it would be magic..... So, it's a bit of give and take for entertainment value sometimes.

Then there's that moment on Cheap Trick: Live At Budukon where Bun E. Carlos misses his snare! I love that moment! Not even sure why, but I do!

You serious?? One of the worst Beach Boys concerts I ever saw. No Carl, wasted Dennis, Brian's vocals sucked, Adrian Baker's falsettos sucked even worse. We talking about the same concert? Queen Mary, Long Beach, July 5, 1981?

This post had you landing right on the money. :-D

The first time I saw Animal I thought "Dennis Wilson"!

I saw the Beach Boys in 1972 with Fataar on drums, but the first time I saw Dennis on drums was when they played Memphis in November of '75. It was the best concert I've ever attended and Dennis was the star. His drumming (and persona) drove the show. Thanks Dennis.

My favorite drummer is this guy, and I'm not even a huge jazz fan. According to what I've read on him or heard about him, he's also a genuinely modest and generous man.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwXjgti7GyY

Well, you have to admit that Dennis seems to be having a fairly good time in Long Beach. I love whe he says "I love Shawn" in Help Me Rhonda.  ;D I thought that the Hawaii Mike Douglas performance was pretty damn good for the period. Carl's guitar playingwas on fire.

The Long Beach show is hideous in all respects other than Dennis!

He looks to be having a blast and is doing all these big old fills across the toms! Magic!

Gene Simmons has said plenty of times that Peter Criss was not a very good drummer.

I wonder why no one mentioned Ron Tutt yet. Fantastic drummer !

Whoa, wait a minute...the doubletime tempo in "Money" during the last solo is definitely part of the arrangement (at least for the studio version); there's no way something like that happened by accident and was left in. But, yes, is feels great and kicks ass.

Personally, I find Nick Mason's drumming to be superb. His very deliberate, non-showy style is perfect for Pink Floyd. Those slow motion drum fills on "Dogs" are quite unique and what I enjoy the most about the song.

Of course I meant Dennis' performance at Long Beach. And to be honest I prefer the 1981 tour over any other gig the Beach Boys played from 1994 onwards. Even Long Beach has it's moments. Adrian Baker sucks, yeah but his guitar rocks in Surfin' and I love the first half of the show. The Washington DC concert one day before was even better. They weren't that sloppy and the mix was much better. When I listen to the Queen Mary one all I hear is Al on the background vocals and harmonies. To see Brian sing instead of just sitting behind the piano is as enjoyable as to see Dennis rockin' on his drum set.   :hat  They played oldies, but many for the first time in years, so they sounded fresh and they still focused more on the raw guitar sound.  I really think the bass sound and Al's mike ruined the broadcast.

How depressing. Your subsequent posts make more sense, as you are obvs a dedicated drummer, but that statement is just miserable. I mean, do you get angry when bands play acoustic sets, or sets with orchestras? Do Brian's/Mike's band piss you off because they aren't their 22 year old selves anymore? Has Bob Dylan been a constant source of irritation to you since 1966?

Jon Stebbins' list of Dennis' studio drumming credits is hard to argue, I'd bet a good number of die-hard music fans assumed it was Hal Blaine or Earl Palmer on any number of those tracks which were actually Dennis. That is quite an impressive roll call of classic drum grooves, and probably one of the reasons out of many Hal Blaine has said Dennis was a good drummer. I think Hal of anyone out there would recognize how important that chemistry is when creating a band groove, and how a drummer has to be the right "fit" in that groove in order to make a classic record.

On the flip side, the great Al Jackson Jr. was adamant about keeping solid time, and would even jump all over a rock-solid player like Duck Dunn about staying in the groove. That is the difference between a nuanced, highly-skilled player like Jackson and a self-taught player like Dennis or even Micky Dolenz whose drumming I really, really enjoy. They both have their place in their respective situations and do their job well but as musicians they are far apart in skill levels.

Off topic, it still amazes me how Al Jackson Jr. was able to create that behind-the-beat groove on "In The Midnight Hour", and not only create it but also make a pocket wide enough for the MG's to fit into it and keep it so lazy yet in time...in the LA studio scene at that same time perhaps the only drummer who could cop that groove with authority would have been Earl Palmer.

It is hard to change perceptions when for so long we've been told that Dennis was "replaced" by Hal after the first couple of BB's records. Its definitely not the case. Hal played on a lot of great stuff, Kiss Me Baby, Do You Wanna Dance, California Girls, Help Me Rhonda, Wouldn't It be Nice, Good Vibrations, etc... His list of BB's credits is just as impressive if not more so, but Dennis should get credit for the things he played on, which are many, and are some of the biggest hits and best album tracks. Sometimes it was the best of both worlds where you had both guys on the session, "Fun, Fun, Fun" they both contribute to the drum track, on "I Get Around" Dennis plays the drums and Hal plays the timbales, same set up on "Hawaii", On "Dance Dance Dance" Dennis plays the drums and Hal plays all that great percussion around him, on "Don't Back Down" they both contribute drum parts. So it wasn't always an either/or situation. BTW...I need to give a shout out to Craig Slowinski (C-Man) as he's unearthed so much of the session info that has helped bring more truth and less myth to the whole question of who played what on which track. If anyone has not seen Craig's great website, go here... http://beachboysarchives.com/

I suggest anyone worried about perfect meter and the possibility of less than perfect meter ruining their musical enjoyment: get a metronome, pile up a bunch of your favorite songs and try and set the metronome, best as you can to the song's beat when it comes in..... You'll be amazed at what happens. Most songs go all over the place or at least speed up quickly.... Bonham is probably the worst "offender" .....  :lol

If I could visit one Beach Boys session, it would hands down be Dance, Dance, Dance.  Not because it's my favorite, but because it's the ultimate integration of the Beach Boys and the session guys, I think.  If any photos surface from an actual mid-sixties tracking session ever turn up, I hope it's from this.  You've got Dennis and Hal, Brian and Ray, Carl and Al, and a little Glen Campbell thrown in for good measure.  Such a neat lineup.

I would love to have been at the vocal session for "Dance, Dance, Dance"!   ;D