Carol Kaye on "Surfin' USA"...

[Andrew G. Doe]

Time to settle this. On her website, she lists this Beach Boys song as being a hit she plays guitar on, and further claims the late Billy Strange played lead, citing a "Union contract" as the source. However, according to the American Federation of Musicians contract for this recording, and the memory of David Marks, neither of them did.

So, to settle this once and for all, I call on her to post this contract on her site - or here - and prove her claim, and prove me wrong, in which case I will humbly and unreservedly apologise for stating in the past that her claims in this respect are false. If, as she claims, this contract proves she does play on this Beach Boys recording, then surely there can be no reason whatsoever to withhold it.

[Jim V.]

Whose recording of "Surfin' U.S.A." was she on? Was it The Hot Doggers (aka Bruce Johnston) version? Or some other thing of that type?

[SMiLE Brian]

I don't get why this is a big deal to keep fighting an old lady. I think both carol and you would be much happier avoiding each other.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Whose recording of "Surfin' U.S.A." was she on? Was it The Hot Doggers (aka Bruce Johnston) version? Or some other thing of that type?

Don't know for sure. The Hot Doggers is as good a guess as any. Hopefully we'll see when she posts the AFM sheet. Tha date of the session and the studio will be instructive.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I don't get why this is a big deal to keep fighting an old lady. I think both carol and you would be much happier avoiding each other.

The why is simple, but I'll explain anyway. She claims to have documentation that proves she's on a Beach Boys hit single that currently existing documentation states she isn't. Be this so, I can see no reason for her not posting it and making me look a prize tit into the bargain.  

[Jukka]

I don't get why this is a big deal to keep fighting an old lady. I think both carol and you would be much happier avoiding each other.

Yeah. No offense, our all-knowing guiding light (no sarcasm whatsoever here, you know you are), but where's the constructive side of this bickering? We the hardcore fans more or less already know the truth, and Carol claiming something outlandish doesn't really sway anyone. General public doesn't care. People writing books on this stuff know better. So what's there to gain. This is like old lumberjacks or sailors reminiscing - year by year, their stories of past adventures get bigger and better... Old age does that to you.

[37!ws]

A friend of mine who actually took lessons from Carol Kaye told me she produced union contracts for "Surfin' USA" and showed them to him. However, one thing he could NOT confirm: that it was actually a Beach Boys session.

[37!ws]

No offense, our all-knowing guiding light (no sarcasm whatsoever here, you know you are), but where's the constructive side of this bickering? We the hardcore fans more or less already know the truth, and Carol claiming something outlandish doesn't really sway anyone. General public doesn't care. People writing books on this stuff know better. So what's there to gain. This is like old limberjacks or sailors reminiscing - year by year, their stories of past adventures get bigger and better... Old age does that to you.

My thoughts exactly, BUT: she actually sent lawyers after people who disagreed with her.

[bgas]

A friend of mine who actually took lessons from Carol Kaye told me she produced union contracts for "Surfin' USA" and showed them to him. However, one thing he could NOT confirm: that it was actually a Beach Boys session.

the way is clear: All of us should join together to sponsor AGD for lessons from Carol; he can then view the contracts personally and clear this up once and for all

[Andrew G. Doe]

[quote author=SMiLE Brian link=topic=19300.msg489011#msg489011 date=1418671877]
I don't get why this is a big deal to keep fighting an old lady. I think both carol and you would be much happier avoiding each other.

Yeah. No offense, our all-knowing guiding light (no sarcasm whatsoever here, you know you are), but where's the constructive side of this bickering? We the hardcore fans more or less already know the truth, and Carol claiming something outlandish doesn't really sway anyone. General public doesn't care. People writing books on this stuff know better. So what's there to gain. This is like old lumberjacks or sailors reminiscing - year by year, their stories of past adventures get bigger and better... Old age does that to you.
[/quote]

I'm not bickering... just asking, politely, that she post this contract, prove herself right and me - not just me, granted, but me in particular - wrong. 

[NHC]

A friend of mine who actually took lessons from Carol Kaye told me she produced union contracts for "Surfin' USA" and showed them to him. However, one thing he could NOT confirm: that it was actually a Beach Boys session.

the way is clear: All of us should join together to sponsor AGD for lessons from Carol; he can then view the contracts personally and clear this up once and for all

Assuming the lessons are on guitar or bass, not how to fool the public for 50 years, then, yes, by all means.

[Steve Mayo]

i'm behind Andrew...set the record straight once and for all.

[Mikie]

Yeah, time to put it to bed. Might take some doing though on AGD's part, but maybe it's time to set the record straight.

And while we're at it, is everything else agreed upon as far as Carol playing on other Beach Boys songs, i.e. the Good Vibrations bass part and bass on I Was Made To Love Her?

[buddhahat]

I don't get why this is a big deal to keep fighting an old lady. I think both carol and you would be much happier avoiding each other.

I have to agree and with Jukka's post too. The more you challenge her the more likely she is to dig her heels in anyway - she strikes me as quite a proud woman. Why don't we just appreciate her for what she contributed to the records and accept she may misremember a few sessions here and there? This all seems a bit petty to me.

[GhostyTMRS]

I don't get why this is a big deal to keep fighting an old lady. I think both carol and you would be much happier avoiding each other.

It's a case of giving the right credit to the right people. There are a lot of people who seek to minimize the musical contributions of the actual Beach Boys to their own records. As a fan of the band, I don't see how letting these people off the hook benefits the Beach Boys' legacy. If I were Carl, for example, I'd be pretty ticked off that tracks I worked hard on are slowly being credited to other people and my fans are seemingly okay with it. If AGD can set the record straight, then more power to him. 

[filledeplage]

I don't get why this is a big deal to keep fighting an old lady. I think both carol and you would be much happier avoiding each other.

Smile Brian - The Wrecking Crew story is an important one, and I saw the movie a few years back, which I really enjoyed, seeing these gifted musicians working on the background music for these mega stars we know and love.  It is amazing how so many broke out on their own to be mega stars in their own right.  

But, I'm with Andrew on this and do respect his scholarship. Tell the story correctly and I guess that means historical accuracy. It isn't about "fighting an old lady."  And, I bet she wouldn't appreciate a reference as such.  She did make a real contribution, but reliable history always demands accuracy.  

[SMiLE Brian]

What is the point of AGD trying to do it?

The two haven't gotten along for years and its more a feud between people at this point. AGD should be happy that the fanbase general knows the what the BBs played on, meaning all the work of scolars like him wasn't in vain.

[filledeplage]

What is the point of AGD trying to do it?

The two haven't gotten along for years and its more a feud between people at this point. AGD should be happy that the fanbase general knows the what the BBs played on, meaning all the work of scolars like him wasn't in vain.

It isn't about getting along.  It is about historical accuracy.  He is an historian.

What does that mean? The "fanbase knows what the BB's played on?" Why should he be happy about that? 

Do you mean he should "settle" with that, and not seek to see that writings are accurate?

The Wrecking Crew story isn't just about The Beach Boys. 

But, as it relates to The Beach Boys, it is important to Andrew.

If I want to read a fairy tale, I'll read Hans Christian Andersen. 

[ontor pertawst]

Historians! Now with extra gloating for those hard to reach problem stains.

Act now and we'll harass a senior citizen for YEARS about confusing some recording sessions amidst thousands of others half a century ago at NO COST TO YOU!

Hey! Mike should get her to play bass on Good Vibrations at the RAH. Then you guys can sort this out face to face. Bring seconds and weapons of choice.

[filledeplage]

Historians! Now with extra gloating for those hard to reach problem stains.

Act now and we'll harass a senior citizen for YEARS about confusing some recording sessions amidst thousands of others half a century ago at NO COST TO YOU!

Did you see the film?

It is not just about The Beach Boys. 

Cher was involved, as many others. 

You might be satisfied with sloppy or speculative journalism, but we aren't all in that category. 

And, news flash, a great deal of the fanbase are "senior citizens" since the demographic is generally considered to be over the age of 55!  But contemporaries of the band are in their late 60's and early 70's. 

Filmakers need to be accurate and not biased. Unless they are telling a fairy tale, and everyone knows that it is.  And, despite the fact that the film is very entertaining, and generally informative, and the music fantastic, there have been questions raised about the full accuracy. 

Can't that be corrected? It is sloppy, otherwise. 

[ontor pertawst]

Doesn't Carol go nuts if she hears the words "Wrecking Crew?" You guys should settle this with weapons. Get Tedesco's son to document it then suddenly Carol can turn on him after she dispatches Doe. She's got the stamina to withstand his relentless assault of logic and ample documentation, plus she'll swing the bass when he produces the documents with a flourish.

It'll be a bloodbath. Think of the headlines.

[Mikie]

Ha Ha Ha Ha! sh*t. Ontor, you oughta open for the Mike & Bruce show, man!   

[filledeplage]

Doesn't Carol go nuts if she hears the words "Wrecking Crew?" You guys should settle this with weapons. Get Tedesco's son to document it then suddenly Carol can turn on him after she dispatches Doe. She's got the stamina to withstand his relentless assault of logic and ample documentation, plus she'll swing the bass when he produces the documents with a flourish.

Whatever moniker is used to represent the group of session musicians is of no real consequence.  The point of Tedesco's telling the story of his dad's life, and others, is an important one. I saw him in person a couple of years ago at a screening.

The story is an important one; one which is very exciting, especially to those whose music was of that generation.  I don't know if she "goes nuts" and it is of no consequence.  I've read where other musicians were credited for session work actually done by The Beach Boys.  

So, authentication is a problem.  Providing the documents should not be a big problem to refute a contention of working or not working on a particular recording.  

[Jon Stebbins]

I don't get why this is a big deal to keep fighting an old lady.

I'm sorry that more people don't think it's a big deal. No matter how old, or how talented, or how crazy, or how whatever Carol is, her claim about SUSA disrespects and diminishes the Beach Boys as musicians on their own iconic hit record that was recorded a year before she played on her first Beach Boys session. She is essentially saying that on Surfin USA, the record that gave the Beach Boys their first massive hit, Carl is not playing the lead guitar, that I'm sure at 16 he worked very hard on and was very proud of, and David is not playing the rhythm that at 14 he performed brilliantly. She's taking credit AWAY from the people who made the music, and you'd be surprised at how many people buy her claim. I've had so many people tell me that it's her and Billy Strange on the record, as if I needed to be educated about it. Where do you think these people get that erroneous point of view from?  From her constant reminder to people that it's not the Beach Boys on that record even though it is. I'm happy AGD will call her out on it, not much upside for him, he'll get told he's on a fool's errand going after an old lady, and that no one cares, and that he's disrespecting a legend etc... The ONLY upside is that he's fighting for what is right and what is true.

[ontor pertawst]

Print the facts, publish the books. Correct the record! Sure. I can see your side and agree. You're clearly right. But the baiting and gloating gets a bit much and it sometimes seems like this is more personal than about recording contracts.