Thread for arguments with or about moderation

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I will tell you why, because quite a few folks got banned in here after arguing with Craig. Now, maybe it is sheer coincidence, but then maybe not. This was my whole point. He types a diatribe as to whether he is pro or con, then if you disagree, he keeps ramming his opinion down your throat until an argument ensues, then someone gets mad enough to overstep, the BOOM!, down comes the ban-hammer.

I have stated multiple times that is not how it works, and you keep making the same accusation. So, please be straight with me...why? Do you think I'm lying? Or do you accept what I'm saying as fact, and just are bringing it up to rile Craig up and create an argument for the sake of making him look bad? I seriously hope there's another explanation for it, because we may have an issue otherwise.

[rab2591]

So, in relation to consistency in moderation, did we ever get a landing on GF reaming AGD repeatedly for offensive comments about Smiley board mods on the BBB board (Mike's Band thread, circa Dec 15) vs no apparent reaming of Debbie KL for making offensive comments about BBB board mods on the Smiley board (PS tour thread)?

Apologies if I missed it in the melee.

- A

I was defending myself against negative comments made on a forum where I'm not registered, where I never have posted, and in a situation where I had no idea it was even happening until someone mentioned it. I had every right to defend myself against both the attacks themselves, and since Andrew was one of the main contributors and the thread's starter on BBB and was also a member here, I had every right to call it out and defend myself on a board where I actually AM a registered member.

If Val wants to reply, she can do so. If a precedent is set by allowing something to happen, the consequences might not be agreeable but they're not unexpected.

I think this is an example of a time when GF as mod and GF as poster became blurred in the minds of some readers. I think what I've learned from this thread is to think of GF as a poster except when he explicitly states that he's talking as a mod. But I hope, again, that you, GF, will try to keep in mind that not everyone will know to do that. Sorry to keep harping on that, but I think that's one of the issues. If a mod calls someone out, people are going to think he's calling them out as a mod. Like in that case, you were calling someone out for board behavior. You're free to do that as a poster, but it can easily be thought that you're doing that as a mod. So then people think, why was A in trouble for that when B wasn't? The answer is that A wasn't in 'trouble' with a mod; just GF was PO'd as a poster. But that wasn't clear. Maybe a disclaimer of some sorts when that happens would help.

Eta: exactly as you did in the post you just posted. Perfect!

Even if he did it as a mod I don't see the problem. His reputation (as a person as well as a moderator) was being completely smeared on another forum by a supposedly respected member of Beach Boys fandom. As a moderator he had every right to defend himself and his reputation as a moderator. I know AGD threw a tantrum because Guitarfool opened a locked thread to respond to that criticism/thread that took place on BBB, but people would've childishly whined had Guitarfool started a new thread to respond to the issue...it was a no-win situation for some people here. And you can say he could've responded to the criticisms via PM, but his reputation was being smeared publicly and he had every right to defend himself publicly.

It's been the same guys leading this charge ad nauseam against Guitarfool over the last year or so. Honestly, at this point there are probably far far more posts that petulantly complain about Guitarfool than there are "controversial" posts by Guitarfool.

I think you misunderstand my point. My point was not that he didn't have a right to defend himself. My point was that it might be perceived that he's saying, as a mod, that cross-board references are not OK. That there's a rule issue. Then, when someone else makes a cross-board reference and he doesn't respond, he's open to criticisms of inconsistency. In the former instance, he wasn't objecting as a mod because someone had broken board rules, he was objecting as GF because someone had been rude about him behind his back.
I think your last point is correct, but I think that there are some small changes GF can make, as he did in that last post, to save himself a lot of grief.

One change would be not derailing posts that offer even the slightest criticism of Brian Wilson or his music as if criticizing a song or poking some fun at an album is somehow an insult to the man.  

ie.  The fake review of NPP / The post about "Great Beach Boys Songs that Brian Didn't Write"  

Which "fake" review are you referring to?

The one Bubs posted a few weeks ago that got a lot of Brianistas all riled up.  

I'm a big fan of the NPP album, but I thought the review was pretty entertaining for the most part.  

It wasn't fake at all. Bubs even said that what they wrote was how they felt about the album...and the consistency with their prior reviews backed that up. I disagreed with much of their opinions, but I do respect that they took the time to describe in detail what they disliked about the album (unlike some other posters). However, calling some of the music ""turgid, worthless, safe bullcrap", and calling 'Runaway Dancer' a "stupid fucking pop song" isn't something that is going to incite some positive uplifting replies...especially for people who enjoy the album.

Many people found the review funny (even those who like NPP), that's fine. Others found it disrespectful, that's fine too. But some made it yet another opportunity to bash Guitarfool for making his opinion known. It's getting pretty old.

[drbeachboy]

I will tell you why, because quite a few folks got banned in here after arguing with Craig. Now, maybe it is sheer coincidence, but then maybe not. This was my whole point. He types a diatribe as to whether he is pro or con, then if you disagree, he keeps ramming his opinion down your throat until an argument ensues, then someone gets mad enough to overstep, the BOOM!, down comes the ban-hammer.

I have stated multiple times that is not how it works, and you keep making the same accusation. So, please be straight with me...why? Do you think I'm lying? Or do you accept what I'm saying as fact, and just are bringing it up to rile Craig up and create an argument for the sake of making him look bad? I seriously hope there's another explanation for it, because we may have an issue otherwise.

You two may make the final decision together, but you will never convince me that when threads start to breakdown, that Craig isn't influencing the action in that particular thread. In some cases, it is his continual posts that aggravate the situation. If thinking as a moderator that your own posts are inflaming a thread, if it were me, I would back off and let things calm down.

[KDS]

Rab,

I figured I'd reply without the quotes.  

My issue lies whenever one posts something negative about Brian's music, but somehow that's taken as a swipe at Brian himself.  In the same thread with NPP Review (OK, I didn't realize it wasn't fake.  My mistake), one poster said that "code words" such as EDM are used to disguise hatred for Brian, Melinda, et al.  And GF backed up said poster.  How is criticizing a song deemed disrespectful by a mod.  

I'm not bashing GF for his opinions.  As the Dr before pointed out, if you post something his doesn't agree with, it's followed by a long post from GF on why your opinion is wrong.  

[rab2591]

So, in relation to consistency in moderation, did we ever get a landing on GF reaming AGD repeatedly for offensive comments about Smiley board mods on the BBB board (Mike's Band thread, circa Dec 15) vs no apparent reaming of Debbie KL for making offensive comments about BBB board mods on the Smiley board (PS tour thread)?

Apologies if I missed it in the melee.

- A

I was defending myself against negative comments made on a forum where I'm not registered, where I never have posted, and in a situation where I had no idea it was even happening until someone mentioned it. I had every right to defend myself against both the attacks themselves, and since Andrew was one of the main contributors and the thread's starter on BBB and was also a member here, I had every right to call it out and defend myself on a board where I actually AM a registered member.

If Val wants to reply, she can do so. If a precedent is set by allowing something to happen, the consequences might not be agreeable but they're not unexpected.

I think this is an example of a time when GF as mod and GF as poster became blurred in the minds of some readers. I think what I've learned from this thread is to think of GF as a poster except when he explicitly states that he's talking as a mod. But I hope, again, that you, GF, will try to keep in mind that not everyone will know to do that. Sorry to keep harping on that, but I think that's one of the issues. If a mod calls someone out, people are going to think he's calling them out as a mod. Like in that case, you were calling someone out for board behavior. You're free to do that as a poster, but it can easily be thought that you're doing that as a mod. So then people think, why was A in trouble for that when B wasn't? The answer is that A wasn't in 'trouble' with a mod; just GF was PO'd as a poster. But that wasn't clear. Maybe a disclaimer of some sorts when that happens would help.

Eta: exactly as you did in the post you just posted. Perfect!

Even if he did it as a mod I don't see the problem. His reputation (as a person as well as a moderator) was being completely smeared on another forum by a supposedly respected member of Beach Boys fandom. As a moderator he had every right to defend himself and his reputation as a moderator. I know AGD threw a tantrum because Guitarfool opened a locked thread to respond to that criticism/thread that took place on BBB, but people would've childishly whined had Guitarfool started a new thread to respond to the issue...it was a no-win situation for some people here. And you can say he could've responded to the criticisms via PM, but his reputation was being smeared publicly and he had every right to defend himself publicly.

It's been the same guys leading this charge ad nauseam against Guitarfool over the last year or so. Honestly, at this point there are probably far far more posts that petulantly complain about Guitarfool than there are "controversial" posts by Guitarfool.

I will tell you why, because quite a few folks got banned in here after arguing with Craig. Now, maybe it is sheer coincidence, but then maybe not. This was my whole point. He types a diatribe as to whether he is pro or con, then if you disagree, he keeps ramming his opinion down your throat until an argument ensues, then someone gets mad enough to overstep, then BOOM!, down comes the ban-hammer. Now, in Billy's defense, he may give his opinion, but he never forces it on anyone. If trouble does begin, he tries to diffuse it before it gets out of hand. To me, that is moderating. He still states his opinion and is involved in the thread, but can still separate the two when trouble brews.

Also, have you noticed that Craig has not admitted to doing even one little thing wrong? The guy thinks he is a perfect moderator. I have worked in my profession for 34 years and to this day, I still learn new things and try improve myself and improve on how I go about doing my job. He is hell bent in keeping his moderator position here and that is fine, but if moderating in here is really that important to him, then at least listen to your members when they tell you that you might not be so perfect and that you could make improvements that would benefit all of the members in here.

Which is why I requested that the moderators write up a post describing each ban since Craig came on board and the details behind those bans. Again, I will say, A LOT has happened in Beach Boys fandom since Guitarfool became a moderator. Guitarfool has his own very solid opinions about things...as does everyone here. However he didn't force a poster to compare some Brian fans to suicide bombers. He didn't force Kittykat to lash out at an insider. He didn't force some posters to harass an enthusiastic member. He didn't force a poster to hint that Joe Thomas needed to throw himself from a high-rise building. He didn't force a poster to threaten LePage's family (though nothing to do with banning, it still shows what some people are capable of here). He didn't force some very f***ed up information about Melinda Wilson to be spread around. He didn't force Mike's Beard to use a proxy to sign back in to ridicule many posters here (and possibly tell a bald-face lie).

I know those are only a limited amount of examples - (that is why I think it would be important for the mods to list who has been banned and the reasons why) - however it still goes to show what the mods are up against. Many (if not all) people who were banned did some very dumb things that violated board rules...and they have nothing to do with Guitarfool supposedly pushing people into corners. Good grief.

[Juice Brohnston]

So, in relation to consistency in moderation, did we ever get a landing on GF reaming AGD repeatedly for offensive comments about Smiley board mods on the BBB board (Mike's Band thread, circa Dec 15) vs no apparent reaming of Debbie KL for making offensive comments about BBB board mods on the Smiley board (PS tour thread)?

Apologies if I missed it in the melee.

- A

I was defending myself against negative comments made on a forum where I'm not registered, where I never have posted, and in a situation where I had no idea it was even happening until someone mentioned it. I had every right to defend myself against both the attacks themselves, and since Andrew was one of the main contributors and the thread's starter on BBB and was also a member here, I had every right to call it out and defend myself on a board where I actually AM a registered member.

If Val wants to reply, she can do so. If a precedent is set by allowing something to happen, the consequences might not be agreeable but they're not unexpected.

I think this is an example of a time when GF as mod and GF as poster became blurred in the minds of some readers. I think what I've learned from this thread is to think of GF as a poster except when he explicitly states that he's talking as a mod. But I hope, again, that you, GF, will try to keep in mind that not everyone will know to do that. Sorry to keep harping on that, but I think that's one of the issues. If a mod calls someone out, people are going to think he's calling them out as a mod. Like in that case, you were calling someone out for board behavior. You're free to do that as a poster, but it can easily be thought that you're doing that as a mod. So then people think, why was A in trouble for that when B wasn't? The answer is that A wasn't in 'trouble' with a mod; just GF was PO'd as a poster. But that wasn't clear. Maybe a disclaimer of some sorts when that happens would help.

Eta: exactly as you did in the post you just posted. Perfect!

Even if he did it as a mod I don't see the problem. His reputation (as a person as well as a moderator) was being completely smeared on another forum by a supposedly respected member of Beach Boys fandom. As a moderator he had every right to defend himself and his reputation as a moderator. I know AGD threw a tantrum because Guitarfool opened a locked thread to respond to that criticism/thread that took place on BBB, but people would've childishly whined had Guitarfool started a new thread to respond to the issue...it was a no-win situation for some people here. And you can say he could've responded to the criticisms via PM, but his reputation was being smeared publicly and he had every right to defend himself publicly.

It's been the same guys leading this charge ad nauseam against Guitarfool over the last year or so. Honestly, at this point there are probably far far more posts that petulantly complain about Guitarfool than there are "controversial" posts by Guitarfool.

I think you misunderstand my point. My point was not that he didn't have a right to defend himself. My point was that it might be perceived that he's saying, as a mod, that cross-board references are not OK. That there's a rule issue. Then, when someone else makes a cross-board reference and he doesn't respond, he's open to criticisms of inconsistency. In the former instance, he wasn't objecting as a mod because someone had broken board rules, he was objecting as GF because someone had been rude about him behind his back.
I think your last point is correct, but I think that there are some small changes GF can make, as he did in that last post, to save himself a lot of grief.

Emily's post has me thinking. There are definitely people who have issues with Guitar Fool. Such is life. Emily's seperation of GF as mod and poster is something that bears consideration. Would it be worth suggesting that he post under two accounts? One as the obviously knowledgable and passionate fan that he is. An 'Associate' if you will. The other account would be GF the Moderator.
So, when moderating, he could do what moderators need to do. If there is a passionate topic, whereby someone might feel he is 'biased' or unreasonable, with his opinions, he chimes in under a 'poster' handle.
Yes, I realize it's still the same guy, and he won't flip the switch in terms of how he feels. But at least then maybe, If there is a reponse or decision made as moderator it can be criticized as such.
Just throwing it out there.

[rab2591]

Rab,

I figured I'd reply without the quotes.  

My issue lies whenever one posts something negative about Brian's music, but somehow that's taken as a swipe at Brian himself.  In the same thread with NPP Review (OK, I didn't realize it wasn't fake.  My mistake), one poster said that "code words" such as EDM are used to disguise hatred for Brian, Melinda, et al.  And GF backed up said poster.  How is criticizing a song deemed disrespectful by a mod.  

I'm not bashing GF for his opinions.  As the Dr before pointed out, if you post something his doesn't agree with, it's followed by a long post from GF on why your opinion is wrong.  

Probably because many people do see it as a swipe at Brian himself. If you had the opinion that one of the songs on No Pier Pressure was "turgid, worthless, safe bullcrap" would you say that to Brian's face? Probably not! Why? Because Brian would possibly take it very personally. And there's a reason for that...because it is mostly music from the mind of Brian Wilson.

Keep in mind, I'm not saying that people can't have an opinion about this music one way or another, but it isn't that difficult to understand why some would see it as a swipe against the artistic integrity and talent of Brian Wilson...and thus a swipe at Brian Wilson himself.

[drbeachboy]

So, in relation to consistency in moderation, did we ever get a landing on GF reaming AGD repeatedly for offensive comments about Smiley board mods on the BBB board (Mike's Band thread, circa Dec 15) vs no apparent reaming of Debbie KL for making offensive comments about BBB board mods on the Smiley board (PS tour thread)?

Apologies if I missed it in the melee.

- A

I was defending myself against negative comments made on a forum where I'm not registered, where I never have posted, and in a situation where I had no idea it was even happening until someone mentioned it. I had every right to defend myself against both the attacks themselves, and since Andrew was one of the main contributors and the thread's starter on BBB and was also a member here, I had every right to call it out and defend myself on a board where I actually AM a registered member.

If Val wants to reply, she can do so. If a precedent is set by allowing something to happen, the consequences might not be agreeable but they're not unexpected.

I think this is an example of a time when GF as mod and GF as poster became blurred in the minds of some readers. I think what I've learned from this thread is to think of GF as a poster except when he explicitly states that he's talking as a mod. But I hope, again, that you, GF, will try to keep in mind that not everyone will know to do that. Sorry to keep harping on that, but I think that's one of the issues. If a mod calls someone out, people are going to think he's calling them out as a mod. Like in that case, you were calling someone out for board behavior. You're free to do that as a poster, but it can easily be thought that you're doing that as a mod. So then people think, why was A in trouble for that when B wasn't? The answer is that A wasn't in 'trouble' with a mod; just GF was PO'd as a poster. But that wasn't clear. Maybe a disclaimer of some sorts when that happens would help.

Eta: exactly as you did in the post you just posted. Perfect!

Even if he did it as a mod I don't see the problem. His reputation (as a person as well as a moderator) was being completely smeared on another forum by a supposedly respected member of Beach Boys fandom. As a moderator he had every right to defend himself and his reputation as a moderator. I know AGD threw a tantrum because Guitarfool opened a locked thread to respond to that criticism/thread that took place on BBB, but people would've childishly whined had Guitarfool started a new thread to respond to the issue...it was a no-win situation for some people here. And you can say he could've responded to the criticisms via PM, but his reputation was being smeared publicly and he had every right to defend himself publicly.

It's been the same guys leading this charge ad nauseam against Guitarfool over the last year or so. Honestly, at this point there are probably far far more posts that petulantly complain about Guitarfool than there are "controversial" posts by Guitarfool.

I think you misunderstand my point. My point was not that he didn't have a right to defend himself. My point was that it might be perceived that he's saying, as a mod, that cross-board references are not OK. That there's a rule issue. Then, when someone else makes a cross-board reference and he doesn't respond, he's open to criticisms of inconsistency. In the former instance, he wasn't objecting as a mod because someone had broken board rules, he was objecting as GF because someone had been rude about him behind his back.
I think your last point is correct, but I think that there are some small changes GF can make, as he did in that last post, to save himself a lot of grief.

Emily's post has me thinking. There are definitely people who have issues with Guitar Fool. Such is life. Emily's seperation of GF as mod and poster is something that bears consideration. Would it be worth suggesting that he post under two accounts? One as the obviously knowledgable and passionate fan that he is. An 'Associate' if you will. The other account would be GF the Moderator.
So, when moderating, he could do what moderators need to do. If there is a passionate topic, whereby someone might feel he is 'biased' or unreasonable, with his opinions, he chimes in under a 'poster' handle.
Yes, I realize it's still the same guy, and he won't flip the switch in terms of how he feels. But at least then maybe, If there is a reponse or decision made as moderator it can be criticized as such.
Just throwing it out there.

A very decent idea. Also, if a moderator (as a normal poster) gets entangled in one of the many arguments that ensue here, then he/she should step away from making moderator decisions in that particular thread, at least if banning is involved. I realize that that would be impossible at the moment with only two mods, but once a third or fourth mod is added, then that would be a much more fair way to handle things when threads get out of control.

[guitarfool2002]

Rab,

I figured I'd reply without the quotes.  

My issue lies whenever one posts something negative about Brian's music, but somehow that's taken as a swipe at Brian himself.  In the same thread with NPP Review (OK, I didn't realize it wasn't fake.  My mistake), one poster said that "code words" such as EDM are used to disguise hatred for Brian, Melinda, et al.  And GF backed up said poster.  How is criticizing a song deemed disrespectful by a mod.  

I'm not bashing GF for his opinions.  As the Dr before pointed out, if you post something his doesn't agree with, it's followed by a long post from GF on why your opinion is wrong.  

In the same thread with NPP Review (OK, I didn't realize it wasn't fake.  My mistake), one poster said that "code words" such as EDM are used to disguise hatred for Brian, Melinda, et al.  And GF backed up said poster.  How is criticizing a song deemed disrespectful by a mod.  

Show me the proof of where I did or said anything in that thread to "back up" someone claiming hatred for anyone, versus commenting in general on the misuse of labels in music.

I'm not bashing GF for his opinions.  As the Dr before pointed out, if you post something his doesn't agree with, it's followed by a long post from GF on why your opinion is wrong.  

If giving and debating opinions back and forth on a board like this is the very nature of boards like this, why are you making it an issue about the length of what I post?

I always debate on the public forums so everyone can see them. Should I instead hide them in private messages?

[Robbie Mac]

So, in relation to consistency in moderation, did we ever get a landing on GF reaming AGD repeatedly for offensive comments about Smiley board mods on the BBB board (Mike's Band thread, circa Dec 15) vs no apparent reaming of Debbie KL for making offensive comments about BBB board mods on the Smiley board (PS tour thread)?

Apologies if I missed it in the melee.

- A

I was defending myself against negative comments made on a forum where I'm not registered, where I never have posted, and in a situation where I had no idea it was even happening until someone mentioned it. I had every right to defend myself against both the attacks themselves, and since Andrew was one of the main contributors and the thread's starter on BBB and was also a member here, I had every right to call it out and defend myself on a board where I actually AM a registered member.

If Val wants to reply, she can do so. If a precedent is set by allowing something to happen, the consequences might not be agreeable but they're not unexpected.

I think this is an example of a time when GF as mod and GF as poster became blurred in the minds of some readers. I think what I've learned from this thread is to think of GF as a poster except when he explicitly states that he's talking as a mod. But I hope, again, that you, GF, will try to keep in mind that not everyone will know to do that. Sorry to keep harping on that, but I think that's one of the issues. If a mod calls someone out, people are going to think he's calling them out as a mod. Like in that case, you were calling someone out for board behavior. You're free to do that as a poster, but it can easily be thought that you're doing that as a mod. So then people think, why was A in trouble for that when B wasn't? The answer is that A wasn't in 'trouble' with a mod; just GF was PO'd as a poster. But that wasn't clear. Maybe a disclaimer of some sorts when that happens would help.

Eta: exactly as you did in the post you just posted. Perfect!

Even if he did it as a mod I don't see the problem. His reputation (as a person as well as a moderator) was being completely smeared on another forum by a supposedly respected member of Beach Boys fandom. As a moderator he had every right to defend himself and his reputation as a moderator. I know AGD threw a tantrum because Guitarfool opened a locked thread to respond to that criticism/thread that took place on BBB, but people would've childishly whined had Guitarfool started a new thread to respond to the issue...it was a no-win situation for some people here. And you can say he could've responded to the criticisms via PM, but his reputation was being smeared publicly and he had every right to defend himself publicly.

It's been the same guys leading this charge ad nauseam against Guitarfool over the last year or so. Honestly, at this point there are probably far far more posts that petulantly complain about Guitarfool than there are "controversial" posts by Guitarfool.

I will tell you why, because quite a few folks got banned in here after arguing with Craig. Now, maybe it is sheer coincidence, but then maybe not. This was my whole point. He types a diatribe as to whether he is pro or con, then if you disagree, he keeps ramming his opinion down your throat until an argument ensues, then someone gets mad enough to overstep, then BOOM!, down comes the ban-hammer. Now, in Billy's defense, he may give his opinion, but he never forces it on anyone. If trouble does begin, he tries to diffuse it before it gets out of hand. To me, that is moderating. He still states his opinion and is involved in the thread, but can still separate the two when trouble brews.

Also, have you noticed that Craig has not admitted to doing even one little thing wrong? The guy thinks he is a perfect moderator. I have worked in my profession for 34 years and to this day, I still learn new things and try improve myself and improve on how I go about doing my job. He is hell bent in keeping his moderator position here and that is fine, but if moderating in here is really that important to him, then at least listen to your members when they tell you that you might not be so perfect and that you could make improvements that would benefit all of the members in here.

Which is why I requested that the moderators write up a post describing each ban since Craig came on board and the details behind those bans. Again, I will say, A LOT has happened in Beach Boys fandom since Guitarfool became a moderator. Guitarfool has his own very solid opinions about things...as does everyone here. However he didn't force a poster to compare some Brian fans to suicide bombers. He didn't force Kittykat to lash out at an insider. He didn't force some posters to harass an enthusiastic member. He didn't force a poster to hint that Joe Thomas needed to throw himself from a high-rise building. He didn't force a poster to threaten LePage's family (though nothing to do with banning, it still shows what some people are capable of here). He didn't force some very f***ed up information about Melinda Wilson to be spread around. He didn't force Mike's Beard to use a proxy to sign back in to ridicule many posters here (and possibly tell a bald-face lie).

I know those are only a limited amount of examples - (that is why I think it would be important for the mods to list who has been banned and the reasons why) - however it still goes to show what the mods are up against. Many (if not all) people who were banned did some very dumb things that violated board rules...and they have nothing to do with Guitarfool supposedly pushing people into corners. Good grief.

Yes, I agree that the mods should post the evidence. If nothing else just to shut the critics up.

[drbeachboy]

Rab,

I figured I'd reply without the quotes.  

My issue lies whenever one posts something negative about Brian's music, but somehow that's taken as a swipe at Brian himself.  In the same thread with NPP Review (OK, I didn't realize it wasn't fake.  My mistake), one poster said that "code words" such as EDM are used to disguise hatred for Brian, Melinda, et al.  And GF backed up said poster.  How is criticizing a song deemed disrespectful by a mod.  

I'm not bashing GF for his opinions.  As the Dr before pointed out, if you post something his doesn't agree with, it's followed by a long post from GF on why your opinion is wrong.  

Probably because many people do see it as a swipe at Brian himself. If you had the opinion that one of the songs on No Pier Pressure was "turgid, worthless, safe bullcrap" would you say that to Brian's face? Probably not! Why? Because Brian would possibly take it very personally. And there's a reason for that...because it is mostly music from the mind of Brian Wilson.

Keep in mind, I'm not saying that people can't have an opinion about this music one way or another, but it isn't that difficult to understand why some would see it as a swipe against the artistic integrity and talent of Brian Wilson...and thus a swipe at Brian Wilson himself.

But telling you or Craig that I don't like the song or the album isn't the same as telling Brian, it's telling you. No matter how you feel about it, we are still conversing with each other, not with Brian. I makes me worried if I am dealing with people in here who now think they are a proxy for Brian. Really?

[guitarfool2002]

I will tell you why, because quite a few folks got banned in here after arguing with Craig. Now, maybe it is sheer coincidence, but then maybe not. This was my whole point. He types a diatribe as to whether he is pro or con, then if you disagree, he keeps ramming his opinion down your throat until an argument ensues, then someone gets mad enough to overstep, then BOOM!, down comes the ban-hammer. Now, in Billy's defense, he may give his opinion, but he never forces it on anyone. If trouble does begin, he tries to diffuse it before it gets out of hand. To me, that is moderating. He still states his opinion and is involved in the thread, but can still separate the two when trouble brews.

Also, have you noticed that Craig has not admitted to doing even one little thing wrong? The guy thinks he is a perfect moderator. I have worked in my profession for 34 years and to this day, I still learn new things and try improve myself and improve on how I go about doing my job. He is hell bent in keeping his moderator position here and that is fine, but if moderating in here is really that important to him, then at least listen to your members when they tell you that you might not be so perfect and that you could make improvements that would benefit all of the members in here.

I will tell you why, because quite a few folks got banned in here after arguing with Craig.

Show me the proof you have of where this was specifically done, and I'll go back to check the archived mod discussions that happened around those ban decisions to review what I, Billy, Klaas if he was involved, and Charles discussed on those issues.

[KDS]

GF...this didn't come through like I hoped.  I did a copy and paste. 

"Thank you for taking the time to educate. Although it  seems to me that the actual use of  terms like  EDM, Disco, Slick, synthetic horns etc, when relating to the albums production  style are actually meant as not so subtle slurs aimed at The label, Melinda, Joe Thomas, Sebu, the other guest artists ,etc. Im only a part time visitor to this site,  but the impression that I get is that there is a  prevailing theory  shared by some  that Brian would have never actually thought of  ever doing  any of these things himself, left to his own device.  Only when working with Andy Paley and Scott Bennett can we be assured that Brian's actual brush strokes make it to the canvas. Even  when there seem to be obvious examples of  Brian's trademark  production  style on NPP,  such as a great moving pick bass line with tons of echo on it, the reviewer ( or again supposedly the reviewers) infer that it was probably one of the aforementioned interlopers trying to rip off one of Brian's old techniques. Techniques from the good old days before Brian was dragged to the studio and tied down while various handlers auto tune his vocals and force him to work with cruel and nefarious pretend singers like Zooey  Deschanel. Singers who Brian could not possibly have ever heard of before let alone actually like.  Zooey   has  done some pretty amazing cover versions  of Brian's songs. But  according to the this theory, Brian couldn't possibly have been flattered by that, or think she has a cute voice. Or watched her very popular show on TV, or seen any of her movies with his kids. Her collaboration  and the others had to be a bad idea conjured up by some label suit.  While I am at it, I also find the criticism of the lyrics on NPP another not so subtle attempt to dis credit or slur the album.  Specifically the albums collaborators. It's  as if there was meant to be  some hidden lyrical genius the rest of us are missing on TLOS .   "Goin Home  Im Goin Home Back to the place where I belong Found piece of mind one piece at a time."  Or  on the Paley sessions  " Some guy walked by hit me in the side Elbow is the thing that keeps me satisfied" .  Brian if you are reading this, I applaud your continued enthusiasm, your quirky lyrics, and the fact that at 75 you are not still wearing the same production sweater that you wore in 1965. You use different collaborators for different reasons and i enjoy listening to  all of your efforts without prejudice!" - poster

"I hope you post more often! Well said."  - GF

[KDS]

Rab,

I figured I'd reply without the quotes.  

My issue lies whenever one posts something negative about Brian's music, but somehow that's taken as a swipe at Brian himself.  In the same thread with NPP Review (OK, I didn't realize it wasn't fake.  My mistake), one poster said that "code words" such as EDM are used to disguise hatred for Brian, Melinda, et al.  And GF backed up said poster.  How is criticizing a song deemed disrespectful by a mod.  

I'm not bashing GF for his opinions.  As the Dr before pointed out, if you post something his doesn't agree with, it's followed by a long post from GF on why your opinion is wrong.  

Probably because many people do see it as a swipe at Brian himself. If you had the opinion that one of the songs on No Pier Pressure was "turgid, worthless, safe bullcrap" would you say that to Brian's face? Probably not! Why? Because Brian would possibly take it very personally. And there's a reason for that...because it is mostly music from the mind of Brian Wilson.

Keep in mind, I'm not saying that people can't have an opinion about this music one way or another, but it isn't that difficult to understand why some would see it as a swipe against the artistic integrity and talent of Brian Wilson...and thus a swipe at Brian Wilson himself.

No, if I were to be lucky enough to meet Brian again, I would not tell him about the couple of songs I don't care for. 

But, posting a dislike for a song on the internet is in no way disrespecting the artist. 

I think that Runaway Dancer is a fairly disposable pop song.  How does that disrespect Brian Wilson? 

[rab2591]

Rab,

I figured I'd reply without the quotes.  

My issue lies whenever one posts something negative about Brian's music, but somehow that's taken as a swipe at Brian himself.  In the same thread with NPP Review (OK, I didn't realize it wasn't fake.  My mistake), one poster said that "code words" such as EDM are used to disguise hatred for Brian, Melinda, et al.  And GF backed up said poster.  How is criticizing a song deemed disrespectful by a mod.  

I'm not bashing GF for his opinions.  As the Dr before pointed out, if you post something his doesn't agree with, it's followed by a long post from GF on why your opinion is wrong.  

Probably because many people do see it as a swipe at Brian himself. If you had the opinion that one of the songs on No Pier Pressure was "turgid, worthless, safe bullcrap" would you say that to Brian's face? Probably not! Why? Because Brian would possibly take it very personally. And there's a reason for that...because it is mostly music from the mind of Brian Wilson.

Keep in mind, I'm not saying that people can't have an opinion about this music one way or another, but it isn't that difficult to understand why some would see it as a swipe against the artistic integrity and talent of Brian Wilson...and thus a swipe at Brian Wilson himself.

But telling you or Craig that I don't like the song or the album isn't the same as telling Brian, it's telling you. No matter how you feel about it, we are still conversing with each other, not with Brian. I makes me worried if I am dealing with people in here who now think they are a proxy for Brian. Really?

Even if you didn't tell Brian the comment it could be taken as a swipe against the artistic integrity and talent of Brian Wilson (and thus Brian himself) - thus people take it personally here on a forum dedicated to a band who's main contributor was Brian Wilson. This shouldn't be that difficult to understand.

[KDS]

Rab,

I figured I'd reply without the quotes.  

My issue lies whenever one posts something negative about Brian's music, but somehow that's taken as a swipe at Brian himself.  In the same thread with NPP Review (OK, I didn't realize it wasn't fake.  My mistake), one poster said that "code words" such as EDM are used to disguise hatred for Brian, Melinda, et al.  And GF backed up said poster.  How is criticizing a song deemed disrespectful by a mod.  

I'm not bashing GF for his opinions.  As the Dr before pointed out, if you post something his doesn't agree with, it's followed by a long post from GF on why your opinion is wrong.  

Probably because many people do see it as a swipe at Brian himself. If you had the opinion that one of the songs on No Pier Pressure was "turgid, worthless, safe bullcrap" would you say that to Brian's face? Probably not! Why? Because Brian would possibly take it very personally. And there's a reason for that...because it is mostly music from the mind of Brian Wilson.

Keep in mind, I'm not saying that people can't have an opinion about this music one way or another, but it isn't that difficult to understand why some would see it as a swipe against the artistic integrity and talent of Brian Wilson...and thus a swipe at Brian Wilson himself.

But telling you or Craig that I don't like the song or the album isn't the same as telling Brian, it's telling you. No matter how you feel about it, we are still conversing with each other, not with Brian. I makes me worried if I am dealing with people in here who now think they are a proxy for Brian. Really?

Even if you didn't tell Brian the comment it could be taken as a swipe against the artistic integrity and talent of Brian Wilson (and thus Brian himself) - thus people take it personally here on a forum dedicated to a band who's main contributor was Brian Wilson. This shouldn't be that difficult to understand.

So, disliking one song is a "swipe against the artistic integrity and talent of Brian Wilson"?

So, does that mean we're just supposed to blindly approve every single piece of music he's released over the last 55+ years? 

[guitarfool2002]

GF...this didn't come through like I hoped.  I did a copy and paste. 

"Thank you for taking the time to educate. Although it  seems to me that the actual use of  terms like  EDM, Disco, Slick, synthetic horns etc, when relating to the albums production  style are actually meant as not so subtle slurs aimed at The label, Melinda, Joe Thomas, Sebu, the other guest artists ,etc. Im only a part time visitor to this site,  but the impression that I get is that there is a  prevailing theory  shared by some  that Brian would have never actually thought of  ever doing  any of these things himself, left to his own device.  Only when working with Andy Paley and Scott Bennett can we be assured that Brian's actual brush strokes make it to the canvas. Even  when there seem to be obvious examples of  Brian's trademark  production  style on NPP,  such as a great moving pick bass line with tons of echo on it, the reviewer ( or again supposedly the reviewers) infer that it was probably one of the aforementioned interlopers trying to rip off one of Brian's old techniques. Techniques from the good old days before Brian was dragged to the studio and tied down while various handlers auto tune his vocals and force him to work with cruel and nefarious pretend singers like Zooey  Deschanel. Singers who Brian could not possibly have ever heard of before let alone actually like.  Zooey   has  done some pretty amazing cover versions  of Brian's songs. But  according to the this theory, Brian couldn't possibly have been flattered by that, or think she has a cute voice. Or watched her very popular show on TV, or seen any of her movies with his kids. Her collaboration  and the others had to be a bad idea conjured up by some label suit.  While I am at it, I also find the criticism of the lyrics on NPP another not so subtle attempt to dis credit or slur the album.  Specifically the albums collaborators. It's  as if there was meant to be  some hidden lyrical genius the rest of us are missing on TLOS .   "Goin Home  Im Goin Home Back to the place where I belong Found piece of mind one piece at a time."  Or  on the Paley sessions  " Some guy walked by hit me in the side Elbow is the thing that keeps me satisfied" .  Brian if you are reading this, I applaud your continued enthusiasm, your quirky lyrics, and the fact that at 75 you are not still wearing the same production sweater that you wore in 1965. You use different collaborators for different reasons and i enjoy listening to  all of your efforts without prejudice!" - poster

"I hope you post more often! Well said."  - GF

Right. I hoped Mr. Nash posts more often, and complimented his post. If you want to read into that any "backing up" of any one line or phrase he wrote instead of a general comment about his post overall, that's your call. At this point I can't change what you think even if I try to disagree with your assessment, I'll be challenged for not admitting I was wrong if I was or wasn't. If you need to look that hard to find more proof against me or whatever this is, I'm here to answer any further challenges.

[drbeachboy]

Rab,

I figured I'd reply without the quotes.  

My issue lies whenever one posts something negative about Brian's music, but somehow that's taken as a swipe at Brian himself.  In the same thread with NPP Review (OK, I didn't realize it wasn't fake.  My mistake), one poster said that "code words" such as EDM are used to disguise hatred for Brian, Melinda, et al.  And GF backed up said poster.  How is criticizing a song deemed disrespectful by a mod.  

I'm not bashing GF for his opinions.  As the Dr before pointed out, if you post something his doesn't agree with, it's followed by a long post from GF on why your opinion is wrong.  

Probably because many people do see it as a swipe at Brian himself. If you had the opinion that one of the songs on No Pier Pressure was "turgid, worthless, safe bullcrap" would you say that to Brian's face? Probably not! Why? Because Brian would possibly take it very personally. And there's a reason for that...because it is mostly music from the mind of Brian Wilson.

Keep in mind, I'm not saying that people can't have an opinion about this music one way or another, but it isn't that difficult to understand why some would see it as a swipe against the artistic integrity and talent of Brian Wilson...and thus a swipe at Brian Wilson himself.

But telling you or Craig that I don't like the song or the album isn't the same as telling Brian, it's telling you. No matter how you feel about it, we are still conversing with each other, not with Brian. I makes me worried if I am dealing with people in here who now think they are a proxy for Brian. Really?

Even if you didn't tell Brian the comment it could be taken as a swipe against the artistic integrity and talent of Brian Wilson (and thus Brian himself) - thus people take it personally here on a forum dedicated to a band who's main contributor was Brian Wilson. This shouldn't be that difficult to understand.

So, you are telling me that if I tell you right now that I really dislike 409 and have so for 50+ years, that I have somehow offended Brian Wilson, David Marks, Mike Love, etc.? That's really pushing it. If that is what is going on here, then that really, really worries me about the type of people I am dealing with in here. Craig, do you feel like this what you are doing in your posts; being Brian's proxy? Is this why you defend Brian so vehemently?

[Emily]

Can we please not make this a thread to hash out EDM questions or to criticize BB opinions or opinions of BB opinions?

[KDS]

GF...this didn't come through like I hoped.  I did a copy and paste. 

"Thank you for taking the time to educate. Although it  seems to me that the actual use of  terms like  EDM, Disco, Slick, synthetic horns etc, when relating to the albums production  style are actually meant as not so subtle slurs aimed at The label, Melinda, Joe Thomas, Sebu, the other guest artists ,etc. Im only a part time visitor to this site,  but the impression that I get is that there is a  prevailing theory  shared by some  that Brian would have never actually thought of  ever doing  any of these things himself, left to his own device.  Only when working with Andy Paley and Scott Bennett can we be assured that Brian's actual brush strokes make it to the canvas. Even  when there seem to be obvious examples of  Brian's trademark  production  style on NPP,  such as a great moving pick bass line with tons of echo on it, the reviewer ( or again supposedly the reviewers) infer that it was probably one of the aforementioned interlopers trying to rip off one of Brian's old techniques. Techniques from the good old days before Brian was dragged to the studio and tied down while various handlers auto tune his vocals and force him to work with cruel and nefarious pretend singers like Zooey  Deschanel. Singers who Brian could not possibly have ever heard of before let alone actually like.  Zooey   has  done some pretty amazing cover versions  of Brian's songs. But  according to the this theory, Brian couldn't possibly have been flattered by that, or think she has a cute voice. Or watched her very popular show on TV, or seen any of her movies with his kids. Her collaboration  and the others had to be a bad idea conjured up by some label suit.  While I am at it, I also find the criticism of the lyrics on NPP another not so subtle attempt to dis credit or slur the album.  Specifically the albums collaborators. It's  as if there was meant to be  some hidden lyrical genius the rest of us are missing on TLOS .   "Goin Home  Im Goin Home Back to the place where I belong Found piece of mind one piece at a time."  Or  on the Paley sessions  " Some guy walked by hit me in the side Elbow is the thing that keeps me satisfied" .  Brian if you are reading this, I applaud your continued enthusiasm, your quirky lyrics, and the fact that at 75 you are not still wearing the same production sweater that you wore in 1965. You use different collaborators for different reasons and i enjoy listening to  all of your efforts without prejudice!" - poster

"I hope you post more often! Well said."  - GF

Right. I hoped Mr. Nash posts more often, and complimented his post. If you want to read into that any "backing up" of any one line or phrase he wrote instead of a general comment about his post overall, that's your call. At this point I can't change what you think even if I try to disagree with your assessment, I'll be challenged for not admitting I was wrong if I was or wasn't. If you need to look that hard to find more proof against me or whatever this is, I'm here to answer any further challenges.

Half of that post was pure paranoia, and you said "Well said."  Sounds to me like you support such paranoia.  Even if that's not what you really mean, that's the perception.  

[KDS]

Can we please not make this a thread to hash out EDM questions or to criticize BB opinions or opinions of BB opinions?

He asked for evidence, I presented it. 

[guitarfool2002]

Several issues here;

First, Dr Beach Boy: Show me the proof that members were banned as a result of disagreeing with me in a debate and I'll go back in the mod discussion archives to check on it for clarification.

Second, Dr Beach Boy: How does my sharing an opinion, defending it, and disagreeing with other opinions equate to being a proxy for Brian Wilson? What if I genuinely like something and express my opinion up to defending whatever or whoever is being criticized on a public opinion forum, is that somehow wrong?

Third, KDS and in general: Months ago if not a year ago I had also complimented "timbnash" on his posts and encouraged him to post more. My reasons why were about getting a working professional in the recording business involved in more discussions here to bring that perspective into some of the discussions, specifically recording and technical issues if he chooses. I like hearing the perspective of a professional who actually does the work many fans here talk about or ask about regularly, and it would be great to have that perspective available for those discussions. If doing that implies that I'm backing up or showing support for every word he or anyone else posts, I can only say it doesn't make sense to assume that based on liking someone's comments and hoping they post more often.

[Emily]

I don't like either the Mike Love's payroll accusations nor the assertions that if you don't like Mike Love's work you can't be a Beach Boys fan. They both are forms of suppression.

I'm OK with people being critical of Mike and some of his stuff.  The thing that bothers me is when people say he was a useless member of the group and try to say he made no positive contributions. 

A lot of people push back aggressively at opinions they don't like.
Now, can we get back to the topic?

[drbeachboy]

Several issues here;

First, Dr Beach Boy: Show me the proof that members were banned as a result of disagreeing with me in a debate and I'll go back in the mod discussion archives to check on it for clarification.

Second, Dr Beach Boy: How does my sharing an opinion, defending it, and disagreeing with other opinions equate to being a proxy for Brian Wilson? What if I genuinely like something and express my opinion up to defending whatever or whoever is being criticized on a public opinion forum, is that somehow wrong?

Third, KDS and in general: Months ago if not a year ago I had also complimented "timbnash" on his posts and encouraged him to post more. My reasons why were about getting a working professional in the recording business involved in more discussions here to bring that perspective into some of the discussions, specifically recording and technical issues if he chooses. I like hearing the perspective of a professional who actually does professionally the work many fans here talk about or ask about regularly, and it would be great to have that professional perspective available for those discussions. If doing that implies that I'm backing up or showing support for every word he or anyone else posts, I can only say it doesn't make sense to assume that based on liking someone's comments and hoping they post more often.

Just asking if you believe as Rab does, is all.

I will go digging for you at my leisure, not at your insistence, as I do have a life outside of this place.

[guitarfool2002]

Can we please not make this a thread to hash out EDM questions or to criticize BB opinions or opinions of BB opinions?

He asked for evidence, I presented it. 

You presented what you described in your opinion as "half of that was pure paranoia", then tried to say I was backing up this half paranoia you believe it was (not fact, just your opinion) by saying "good post". So first of all, whatever you call paranoia, that's the assumed truth that everyone reading should believe? And you pull one line out of a long post, suggest I was backing up that one line, and because you feel half of the remaining sentences were paranoid, I should have posted a disclaimer on every line so I'm not implying my full agreement on everything said...because you think it was paranoia that I am "backing up"?

This is silly, it really is.