The Smiley Smile Message Board

As you know, they had prayer sessions during the recording of Pet Sounds. And Brian talked about his "pocket symphonies to God" in the press. And Mike had his TM, and sat with the Maharishi in Bangor. So who was the most spiritual? Who was most in touch with the powers that be?

I think we can narrow it down to Brian and Mike, and of those two, I think Mike was the more devoted, more in touch with his spiritual side.

(http://www.relaxandrelease.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/1968-Maharishi-Mahesh-Yogi-with-Mike-Love-from-the-Beach-Boys-vintage-photo.jpg)

1968: Maharishi Mahesh Yogi with Mike Love from the Beach Boys

It probably depends on how you define the word "spiritual".

1967 - Live Sunshine

God Only Knows (Live In Hawaii - 8-25-67)

"Hey Carl Wilson, come on up here now and sing a very nice ballad. It's about as religious as we get."

~Mike Love

 :hat

mike love certainly got it wrong calling GOK about as religious as the beach boys get

that'd be Our Prayer (brian's smile composition & recording)

If you define spiritual by who meditated the most to make himself feel better, then it's Mike.  If you define it as a way of being and living your life with love towards everyone, while always keeping in mind the big picture of life and the afterlife, then I would say Carl.  His son said when he got his cancer diagnosis his first words were "I'm not afraid to die."  Seems a likely response from a  'spiritual' person. 

Well, that's impossible to know, but what I've understood and what I know, my guess would be Carl.

It does indeed.

Dennis's music takes me to places I don't visit even when listening to Brian's music. Does this make Dennis more spiritual?

Agree.  There are so many ways to define the term.  My criteria is simply based upon the vibes I got from Carl in his interviews and demeanor.  He appeared to be a gentle man with a gentle and sincere heart.  Brian does as well, but my vote tips slightly to Carl.  I never met him or knew him, but there was a sweetness about him that I can't describe in words.  I think his "spirituality", if you will, shone through.

I'm inclined to agree.

Depends om the definition of spirituality, but come on, Brian is a very strong contender. I mean, the music he wrote clearly shows he had some kind of connection to The Great Spirti, whatever you want to call it. Maybe he doesn't even know or realize it, but the proof is in the proverbial pudding.

One way to put it... I feel Dennis yearns to find that spirit, he longs for it, but cannot quite reach it, and that's what makes his music so heartbreakingly human and beautiful. Whereas Brian was born to it and thus doesn't even realize how spiritual he is... Does this make any sense? To me it does...

I think the question is way too broad/generalized to reach anything even approaching an actual answer.

From the little we know of Carl, he certainly was active in *searching* for various forms of spirituality/religion. He supposedly/allegedly dabbled and/or looked into Scientology at some point, and of course is more known for his interest in whatever it is that the "MSIA" (Movement of Spiritual Inner Awareness) was/is.

Whether one agrees or disagrees with those organizations, both have been labeled at various points by detractors as "cults", so it certainly at the very least makes me more interested to know more about Carl, even if we likely never will.

Interesting replies, thank you all. By spiritual I meant some kind of awareness that there could be more between heaven and earth than what meets the eye, more than an organized faith, or righteous behavior, or inner peace.

I still think Mike comes out ahead here, a lifetime of TM, and at least an intention to live by certain teachings, even if he didn't succeed in that.

Brian has been mentioned as someone with a divine gift, his musical genius. I do think Brian is more conventionally religious, like most church-going folks.

Then there is Carl, I didn't know about his search for an answer to life, but certainly he was the most graceful of the three.

Sorry for being so vague, but at least it makes for an interesting variety of replies.

Myke luHv is about as spiritual and deep as the plastic swimming pool with a palm tree I had for my first turtle which was 3" deep. All that TM crapola is a sideshow for him to run to and hide behind. Does anyone actually buy that façade when he dresses in robes, paints his face and eats that slop that my dog wouldn't look at let alone eat? And after all this play acting has the gonads to still call out Brian and Dennis about their drug use in each and every interview he does. The only god he really worships is The God Of Money which is his own personal deity of choice.

OSD! :lol

There is no gauge of who is most spiritual.

But going on some facts and revisiting some old history, during and just before "The Smile Era" there were numerous reports in the music and fan press that Brian was attending meditation sessions around LA. There was a report that Brian had been composing a musical prayer for a meditation/religious group called "The Subdubs" which was actually "Subud", the practice which counted Jim McGuinn and numerous musicians among its followers. There were reports and interviews done after the fact that said Brian would show up with various members of The Byrds as well as other Beach Boys when these groups would hold meetings. And on the Smile skit tapes, Van Dyke Parks cracks a joke about a Latihan, and it sounded like no one else in the studio except maybe Brian (who isn't heard commenting) knew what a Latihan was.

I wrote a ton about this a few years ago in a thread about TM and Brian's studying it in 1966 and the whole ball of wax, so I'm repeating myself but if anyone is interested in more info on that topic, search the archives and it's there.

What stuck out to me was that Mike often if not regularly speaks about meeting Maharishi at the UN event in Dec 1967, which is where he and the band "discovered" meditation, egged on by Dennis' recommendation (a point which Mike often leaves out just the same).

Meanwhile, "Crazy Brian" (while in his drugged-out Smile-Era stupor according to some idiots' revision of history) had been investigating meditation and even getting into offshoots if not direct predecessors of the TM movement and phenom at least a year before Mike says they were introduced to it.

And Brian was open about saying he and Carl held prayer sessions while recording Pet Sounds, while not naming a specific practice or denomination or organized religion. He also - according to Michael Vosse, David Anderle, and others, was reading and studying the I Ching, Buddhism, Eastern philosophy and mysticism, numerology, and other forms of spirituality during the time of Smile, 1966-67.

So sometimes the guy who wears the robes in a group isn't always the most spiritual, in other words "barba non facit philosophum".

I guess it's up to everyone to weigh the facts and reports and decide even though there really is no contest or way of determining which band member is most spiritual.  :) Just consider who was into all this stuff before the rest, took what he wanted to take, and got out.

Pure gold. Most informative, thanks for weighing in! :)

There is the guy who talks the talk, and the guy who walks the walk. IMO, the latter was Carl. He just exuded it in his demeanor. Mike talks about it a lot, but maybe he is too self conscious to let down his guard and unleash the love.
I think Brian is a guy who, in his inspired musical moments, has reached towards the heavens, sometimes he's gotten there, other times he has come very close. But he also has an agitated side to him - agitation, I am guessing, born out of the inability to sustain those occasional heavenly moments.

Easy...Carl and Brian...although Brian's faith in the essential infinite was interrupted, to a noticeable degree, by the realities of his less than realistic medical issues...at least in terms of their lending themselves to reality...if ya know what I'm prattling about. 

Carl was NOT perfect.  Who is?  But he and Brian and, deep down inside, Dennis were all head, shoulders and obviously more spiritual than the 'great' pretender.  OSD nailed it.  Spiritual people don't do the things he's done...all his life.  Spiritual people don't LIE and take advantage of partners and family when they're incapacitated.  Spiritual people don't 'do' thumbs up pictures with a SCUM BUCKET/PIG like Donald Trump...'cause that sh*t rubs off on you directly and it pollutes your soul.

I sense a spiritual feel from Al...David too really.  And Blondie as well.  But the two current members of the Beached Boys?  I dunno...Maybe Bruce when he's surfing?  But chrome dome?  Not a chance.  No way.  No how.  He's a manikin at best.  Mike Love is to spirituality what rice dream is to desert.

There is a very potent element to this notion. Maybe it is as much a pressure to repeat those moments as it is an inability to sustain them, as in having the burden of expectation and anticipation that such "divine inspiration" to use a heavy term can just be called on demand and applied to whatever is the next project being undertaken. It's a burden which a lot of musical artists have fallen victim to and which has led to some devastating results when the pursuit of such inspiration combined with the pressure to replicate them as if they're ordering fast food from a menu becomes a hurdle that cannot be leapt over.

Brian is the guy who - 40 years after the fact - said to the effect of "how do you top Good Vibrations? You don't." Yet look at how many wanted him and expected him to do just that. Even in that 1976 TV special, McCartney is there at Brian's birthday celebration saying "Brian, when are you going to give us another Pet Sounds?"...then in the mid-90's you had a label asking for Pet Sounds part 2...and the whole nature of divine inspiration (or just everyday run-of-the-mill sparks of creative juice and inspiration) is that you can try methods to facilitate it, but the very nature of inspiration is random and filled with chance. You cannot order it off a menu.

And sometimes that inspiration creates something so personal, so unique, and so definitive and strong that being asked to replicate it on demand can be taken as an insult, and the expectations that such inspiring works will flow in succession can cause that agitation that can lead to either a radical shift in scope and design (as with Smiley Smile and Wild Honey, perhaps?) or a complete creative shut-down as has happened with any number of artists, authors, musicians, and the like.

This may be one reason why for me as a fan, I would selfishly love to see something else presented around "Smile", but when BWPS did come out it was done at exactly the right moment with the right people and it had the effect which was enough to say Ok, it's been done, let's move on to something else...and not try to recreate what was a truly unique experience in time.

Trying to recreate divine inspiration is a fool's errand, and expecting someone to recreate it is as destructive as it is naive.

And keep in mind this is the same Brian Wilson who has often said "Music is God's voice" and who considers music and the creation of music as a spiritual element and experience. The highest forms of that inspiration cannot be recreated on demand.

If you watch Billy Hinche's "Here and Now" about Carl Wilson, the main theme running throughout the two dvd's is his spirituality.  Almost everyone interviewed for the production mentioned it.  His ability to see the big picture of life and understand that everyone was 'doing the best they could, given their resources'.  His nephew said he had a way of 'soothing the air' when he was around.  But didn't really preach it.

I'm always a little suspect of people who feel the need to 'talk' constantly about how wonderful/spiritual they are.  To me, its something you witness based on the way a person behaves -- no need for talk.  I DO feel (from all I've read) that all three Wilson brothers were deep, soulful guys.....but Carl achieved a level of spirituality.

Mike is an easy target, but I wouldn't denigrate him for making an honest effort to live a spiritual life, seek answers, and be in a state of healing. He never wrecked his life with drugs and fast living, but kept an even keel through the years, always supportive of The Beach Boys, even if he was at odds with some of the artier leanings of the Wilson brothers. Here is a man who saw his cousins' lives destroyed by drugs, and he is understandably affected by that. That is not the same as calling out the cousins on their destructive drug use in the many interviews he has given; I do think he is deeply saddened by the turn of events and needs to express that in interviews. He doesn't have the divine gift of Brian's, he is not as beatific and graceful as Carl, but he's been a solid anchor throughout, the bedrock of the band. Not many his age would be able to tour as hard as he is doing.

Wise words, GM.

Good thread, in that it's impossible to answer - but I love the comment about attempting to create and recreate those magical/spiritual moments - and they are just moments that come when they do.

Brian one time tried to impress on me how much the "sense of longing" was important to his music.  Like everything else, I sort of got it, and get more of it at different times, and clearly Dennis knew it immediately, as noted in a post above.

Another moment was not long after Carl died (like GF in some of his previous posts, I probably noted this before somewhere), I mentioned that Carl was his "Angel Voice."  Brian's face lit up and he said, "yes, YES!"  Yeah, I hate when people try to paint Carl as a saint.  He was far too funny - but he gave spirituality quite a voice.

Al seems to really have gotten the connection to the earth and sky, and has remained a good man, connected to that energy, maintaining and voicing it.

Mike, I think, is doing the best he can with the Buddy/Murry heritage and temperament.  I applaud the fact that he tries, until $$ are involved.  I hope he can get past that in this lifetime, since he seems to believe in reincarnation.  Then he could be amazing in a future life.

Brian spoke so often in metaphors that I think he spends as much time as possible examining all aspects of spirituality and creativity.  Some things he said didn't give me that "aha" moment until decades later when it was in my face.  I'm not alone in that experience of him.

And let's not forget that doctors did a study in the late 2000's regarding what music actually healed people, including all genres.  "Whistle In" was the most effective.  Brian wrote it, all of them sang it, so...

Today?  Brian will enjoy his life and who he is (as he should) and if inspiration hits again, we'll hear it.

I once mentioned to a brilliant writer, after I'd studied many cultures, that Brian would have been a shaman in many of them: the psychological break/crisis, the creative brilliance and the healing ability.  He actually liked the idea before he was sidetracked by an overwhelming job.

If anyone can tell me what spirituality is, I'd appreciate the answer.  I think it's different for all of us.  We get different aspects of it at different times.  

Each guy was a part of the whole that is America's Band.  It's the creative version and the perfect reflection of the US in the late 20th/early 21st century, in all of it's contexts - the amazing, generous heights and the disturbing lows.  I'd throw in a little Marvin Gaye while I was at it, though, along with James Brown and Tina Turner.

Amazing post! ;D

That was beautiful Debbie

Deb, the "Today" line about Brian hit me hard as did the inspired post as a whole. A beautiful look at the band indeed.

It strikes me too whenever there are comments made about how Brian Wilson handles interviews, or interviewers - There has been so much already said about what makes him tick, and so much of that is the notion that he speaks through the music he makes. That's what he's communicating to his fans who are willing to listen. If there is something he has wanted to say or convey, there are so many instances of him saying it through the music, and we can all hear it loud and clear if we listen. It does surprise me sometimes to read the reactions to some random interview with BW where he gave short answers or whatever the other gripes may be, especially when you consider where he's coming from. He communicates through music, maybe it's really as simple as that.

And the music to him is spiritual. I know it sounds like hyperbole or some might say "fanboy BS", but there is something to it. I think listening to the incredible music reveals his spiritual side in the sounds of those songs and arrangements, as well as his fun side or the side which is feeling down at any given time.

But I come back to the phrase "I believe music is God's voice". There is no wiggle room on a statement like that, there is no way to parse it or explain it away because it is a very direct statement that reveals a lot about the man, and this is a man who unlike other bandmates is not one to be overtly "religious" or trying to be preachy or pious in any way. He shares and reveals a lot in his music, and I'd suggest he always has from the earliest BB efforts.

I will also add too, and knowing some will consider this "Mike bashing" even though it's a straight-up, honest opinion being offered - For all Mike says and does regarding his TM practices and meditation, he does not seem like a man at peace with himself or with his situation despite nearly 50 years of meditating and practicing TM. Someone at peace with the world, and in touch with their spirituality, is generally not going to be estranged and cut off from his own blood brothers, is *not* going to launch into diatribes against friends and family, will not make ridiculous and hurtful comments about those same people in public, and hold grudges for decades even though in several prominent cases he came out the winner. And someone with spiritual awareness and holding inner peace through meditation, religion, or whatever means is generally not the person who will have the reputation of being a jerk to former friends and family members, being known for filing lawsuits and acting as Mike's reputation suggests he does.

I hope he finds peace, inner peace as I hope in general. But to speak so much and so publicly about having found inner peace and being in touch with spirituality through TM and meditation, Mike's words and actions as recent as this year do not seem to reflect that, and I have to ask why is that the case. I don't know the exact tenets of TM as a religion or spiritual quest, but I'd think forgiveness, humility, and letting go of spiteful thoughts and actions against others should be somewhere in the TM guidebook especially for the more advanced devotees.

You nailed it, guitarfool.  I couldn't have put it together in words as well as you did, but you just said what I've been feeling for a long time (as a songwriter and singer myself).

I am not trying to exonerate Mike, but I wouldn't bash him either. The man makes an effort, but has his shortcomings. I've tried to explain how he truly feels about his family, and some of that pain has come across in a negative way in the interviews. Don't forget he and Brian were very close in the early years, as was that whole family, dysfunctional or not. About the lawsuits, I don't recall them all, but I do know he was screwed out of songwriter credits and royalties, consciously or not, by either Murry or that whole BRI set-up. I think guitarfool's analysis is quite balanced, but I also feel Mike Love does not get enough credit for his significant contribution to The Beach Boys through more than 50 years. If nothing else, he wrote the "California myth" with those song lyrics. Let us give credit where credit is due.  :)

That was done...over and over...duly noted...signed, sealed and delivered...by almost everyone.  He contributed some fine lyrics, some excellent vocal harmonies in the mix, and a few pretty usable ideas to the whole successful process back in the first 3 or 4 years when Brian used Mike's talents to deliver the 'ying' needed to balance Brian's 'yang'.  The formula worked for the group from 1962-63 through 1966 as the band grew, in terms of its collective talent and popularity.  And they did so in leaps and bounds.  Mike helped to make that actually happen.  #1 in the UK for 1966.  First band to knock off the Beatles.

The audience, though, was changing...and maturing.  Brian wanted to move with that change.  Mike whined, resisted and rained on a parade which had a ton of places to go, things to do and people to see.  He's been whining ever since.  Spiritual people are not whiners, malicious, or vengeful.  They do not attempt to justify their shortcomings by blaming their ongoing path in life on  their insatiable need for "nourishment and revenge".  Mike does.  He did...he does...and he likely always will.

We've all given him credit along the way.  Really?  We've given him far more 'praise' than he ever really deserved.  That he chose to shine the spotlight on his own fractured soul...and what makes it 'tick'...is no one's fault but his own.  He had choices he could have made which would have held him in a far kinder sense of 'lighting'.  But he flipped a different switch and he continues to wiggle that toggle like it's a strobe light looking to upset the masses.  In that he has been entirely successful.

Well put. Sure he made wrong choices. Didn't they all? But what exactly did he nix? There was "Don't f**k with the formula" when presented with PS, there was his skepticism over VDP's SMiLE lyrics. VDP's words were good for that record, but let's be honest, "Over and over, the crow cries, uncover the cornfield?" as opposed to "Till her daddy took her T-Bird away"? Which one communicates more to people? He was afraid the new direction would be a disaster, he feared for his livelihood. Still, he went in there and sang his vocals, he went along. And in retrospect, he has stood up for those records. And he continued to provide good lyrics. "Do it again" has brilliant lyrics. Brian has come forward in so many interviews saying he'd like to get back with Mike, write songs, he'd do it in a heartbeat. Mike has been a bully and a braggart, but I think he's made significant contributions most of the way. His main mistakes have been, in my opinion, "Summer in Paradise" and scuppering more reunions after C50. But he also kept the band going, like a well-oiled machine, all those years. Would there even have been a Beach Boys without Mike? With such longevity? I seriously doubt it.  :)

Quite a post Debbie.

GoogaMooga, who exactly doesn't give Mike Love credit? Some youtube trolls and one or two posters here? Most everyone recognizes his accomplishments, most everyone is grateful for his contributions to the Beach Boys (and most every fan, if not every fan, would agree that The Beach Boys as we know them wouldn't exist without Mike Love). The myth that he was the sole reason SMiLE fell apart has been debunked and I don't think too many people blame him for it anymore...I don't at least. I think Summer in Paradise is an awful album but it's not even why I dislike the guy.

Read the 2005 lawsuit where Mike lies about Brian (paraphrasing) "doing nothing from 1968 onward but doing drugs and collecting royalty checks for decades" - that was just 12 years ago, and he was still fighting the case in court until just before the 2012 reunion. In years past he came out and made some really crass comments about Brian in the media ("he's overweight" "he's controlled" "he fried his brain with drugs", it literally goes on and on). This past year Mike hasn't made these comments and it has honestly helped change my opinion about the guy - to me it appears he has possibly matured and stopped being so bitter. It's great and I hope I never see another tactless comment about Brian in the media - if I don't I will continue to have my mind changed about him. His actions are the reason why people dislike the guy, it's not like people one day woke up and decided to dislike the man for no reason.

@DebbieKL - phenomenal post!

Okay, I understand why you find some of his behavior obnoxious. Please note I did concede that he could at times be a bully and a braggart, as I wrote before. And it's good to know that he is still respected for his contributions here, on this board, where it really matters. But go to any number of general music boards, the hatred of Mike there is way out of proportion. I like him, but agree he could have handled certain situations better.

It's not at all out of proportion.  People have cut him umpteen breaks and he still piles on with the never ending bull sh*t.  That's NEVER ENDING!!!  And he did say in his silly little booklette that he does what he does for his "own nourishment and revenge."  He admits to it and gives you the reasons why.  

No the response to this arsehole  is measured and kept in lock step every time he issues another foray of Mike-Poo.  You will notice that at BW dot calm that in the Beach Boys music section there is a picture of Brian, Dennis, Carl and Al gathered round the mic.  THERE IS NO picture of bald-ass.  Not a one.  Brian's 5oth Anniversary Pet Sounds program includes NO pics of Mike.  He's made his bed.  Screw him!!!

Oh and Cabinessence is one of my all time top 5 favourite+ Beach Boys songs.  Fun Fun Fun is only top 30-35.  The difference...to me?  Cabinessence is a gigantic WOW!!!  NOBODY else can do THAT.    How the heck did they come up with THAT song which still knocks the 'Impress Me' meter pinning into the red.  Easy...for the Beach Boys...because Mike had nothing to do with it...'cept for singing his assigned part.  Fun Cubed, by comparison, is still a great sounding fun song.  It's a classic hit.  But is it a WOW factor song?  Not quite to that colossal extent. There's room for both in the' best' section of the group's body of work...but if I had to make a choice?  I'd take 20/20 and or Smile ahead of Shut Down Volume 2...and I'm a died-in-the-wool fan from the spring of 1963 forward.   Just 'cause dick-weed didn't like it matters 0 to me.  When it comes to composing music and arranging it?  He's a lightweight on his best days.  Gotta be his general lack of spirituality.  That said?  The Beach Boys have [generally] always been about music.  Nuff said.

Spirituality is clearly an individualistic concept and practice, even though one often requires education and some form of indoctrination to access it. There is often a tendency to use it as a band-aid for issues that have produced agitation and a sense of "lack of wholeness" where other techniques might prove more effective, and if applied without sufficient perspective can produce a completely warped view of reality.

Thankfully, that last possibility does not exist in any of the BB's efforts in the spiritual realm. Mike has been consistent in his spiritual practice, and we must remember the quote from BB employee Rick Nelson ("Imagine if he'd never meditated!") to remind ourselves that there are so many "in situ" contexts that have powerfully shaped Mike's attitudes and behavior that it becomes hard to know what's causing what. (Mostly, though, we get it: as others have said, it must be tough to be a really good singer--as Mike clearly is--only to look around and discover you're the fourth best singer in your band. Might be a hard fact to accept.)

Clearly, Brian was the first to have a spiritual connection and music was its conduit, for which we all should be eternally grateful. Carl clearly picked up on this the most directly, and all of the other evidence, anecdotal and otherwise, confirms this. It's to Mike's credit that he recognized that he needed a spiritual practice in his life, and his personal life has been a lot more stable as a result of sticking with it. Dennis was so mercurial that we can't trace any kind of linear path for spirituality in his life, but it is clearly present in his music, if only in the yearning for wholeness that often surfaces in his lyrics and in his musical arrangements.  Al seems to have channeled his spirituality into an affinity with native America and the land, a path that leads to the American transcendentalists.

But it was/is Brian's music that was the catalyst for these explorations and journeys, and the music affords us a chance to receive that ourselves, each in our own way, as we listen. And we can share that reception--and receptivity--with those who gather here, despite the dust-ups and schisms, etc. This board remains special for everyone who's remained loyal to it, and for people like Debbie, Ray and Ed--people who were/are part of that glorious, tumultuous history. And of course the incomparable Steve Desper. And our embattled but still-standing moderators!

A perfect thread for this time of year. Happy holidays to all and let's give thanks for the bounty of musical blessings we've received in 2017, an otherwise "difficult" year for those in seek of peace of mind.

While the hatred is sometimes out of proportion, lets keep in mind that things like the 2005 lawsuit give anyone a right to seriously dislike the man...and it's not even his bullying behavior - it is the flat out lying about his own family to make some money. I think Mike Love gets a pass from some people because we're so used to the lawsuits that it becomes "Just something that Mike Love does". Whereas if one of your family members lied about you in order to take your hard earned money in a court of law you probably wouldn't talk to them ever again.

Things aren't black and white and I think it's important to keep both sides of the story in mind - Mike has a right to be annoyed by certain things that happened to him. There's a middle ground I think most fans can meet at. But Mike has done himself no favors when it comes to his public perception (2005 lawsuit, subsequent interviews that tear down Brian). But I sure do hope that Mike is on a positive kick now, he seems to be not as bitter in interviews, and seems to be more upbeat. I think if he keeps that up we will see less out-of-proportion hatred for the guy. And who knows, if the positivity keeps up maybe we'll even get one last reunion album (though very doubtful).

There have been a couple stellar posts in this thread already, but this is one of my favorite ones. Thanks for the insight, Don.


^this whole section was especially eye-opening.

This has been an excellent discussion and I'm impressed with every post (I think) - no time to review them all since I'm under another writing deadline.  What I love about this place is the intelligent discourse on such a fundamental part of humanity, whomever we'd like to be and where we stand now. It's wonderful to be able to do this without some bizarre, hateful, lying troll derailing the discussion - speaking of the need for spiritual healing, and how well this place is managed, with the tough/gentle love appropriate to this music...

As far as the Mike discussion, I hope my thoughts came across as intended.  I'm no Mike-hater, whatever that is.  I actually have a lot of hope that one day during meditation, he learns to be grateful for his amazing life and to accept that someone brilliant taught him to sing, expressed appreciation for his contribution in that realm and his lyrics appropriate to that time.  While I don't know what Mike actually contributed to the creative process, I've heard Brian at the piano composing, and I actually couldn't move once I was so transfixed, even though I knew it was time to leave him alone with his piano and the little wooden Christmas angel he had sitting on top of it.

I'm very, very clear what Brian's spiritual/creative abilities are.  Let's just say there's no question why he can tour successfully under his own name - and how he brings other gifted artists to tears.  I also get that at a crucial time, it took all of their voices.  I didn't mention Bruce in my post above, but his voice at the end of GOK was perfect.  If only he'd gone on to Broadway where I think he'd have done well (a friend suggested it and she was right). On his own he wrote well in his melodramatic style -not my thing, but it works well for many.

Much appreciation to all of you for your great thoughts, and thanks for your kindness and personal brilliance.

COMMENT:  (Part ONE)

Lots of interesting comments on this topic.

I have had the chance to observe each Beach Boy on a one-on-one bases. I have spent hours and hours with each of them where they bare their soul on a creative level, that is, they become one with the creator.

I can’t claim to know an answer to the topic question. The only conclusions I can draw are all superficial observations and not a window into the heart of each Beach Boy. Only God can answer the question with absolute truth.  

Having said that, I can tell you that the group as a group does more charitable work than you know. It’s done behind the scenes, without the press or notoriety and all volunteer.

I have gone with them to hospitals and watch them give wonderful all-acoustic performances to small assembles of the sick, the mimed, the terminal, the young, the veteran. Sometimes it would be just one or two or three – depending on schedules. And sometimes all would go.

Carl always said a prayer before a mixdown. Usually along the lines of asking God to bless the work about to be done and that it would bring happiness to the world. A simple and selfless request. Carl never got mad or spoke ill of others. He had an angelic expression towards life, as felt by many around him.

Brian seemed to understand his role in the cosmic scheme of things, as a vassal or agent of vibration – let if flow . . . get self out of the way.

Dennis had a deeper understanding of God than many knew. Although he lived his mortal life to the full extent, on a creative level he looked for inspiration more from within than from the outside world. Like Brian, he also aware that his source of creativity was not himself, but from a higher power. And he respected that in his approach to writing.

Alan loves nature and his spiritual connections are through nature. Many of his themes reflect this point of view.

Michael’s attempt to align himself with the creator comes through his meditation. At first it was superficial, but as he disciplined himself, I would say he backed into a spiritual nature that eventually turned his inner thinking to the forefront of this approach to life.

Bruce has always been a nice fellow, but as to his spiritual beliefs, they are his private thoughts. He never speaks in those terms.

A Story –

I may have posted this before, but seems appropriate to recount it again.

It must have been the third or fourth time I had been on a tour to England with the group. Saturdays was always a big show night and so Sunday was looked as a day to recover. It seemed to me to be a waste of time to sleep when in such a historic and magnificent city such as London, so I was usually up and about – I could sleep later. Having been in London many times prior, both on leave while in the US Army, or on business, I always found time to go and hear the beautiful services at one of London’s many magnificent places of worship. So I was familiar with the ins and outs of “church visiting.”

This trip I was bound determined to convince Carl and Annie to not spend their Sunday morning in bed, but to come with me to morning church at Westminster Abbey. I thought about going to the larger St. Paul’s Cathedral, but decided on the more intimate service at Westminster Abbey since I knew how to get seats right in the action. I wanted him to experience this service in person, with its boys choir, fantastic acoustics and magnificent organ all reflecting a long historical legacy. You know, if any culture can put on a pomp & circumstance show, it’s the English people. But it wasn’t that, it was the musical experience I know he would appreciate and remember long after returning to Los Angeles.

Let me orient you.  In the following diagram look at the top where it says, Henry VII's Chapel. Opposite the letter “y” in “Henry” you will see some seats with their back toward the North Aisle. That was my target. I had to get Carl to that seating area – and I knew how to do it, if I could get him there by 9:30 AM on a Sunday morning after a huge show the night before. I was only going to get one shot at this, and so several days before, I started laying the groundwork to get Carl to promise me he would get up on Sunday and go. Finally he not only agreed, but he promised.

Diagram of the Abbey:
(http://www.tourvideos.com/Images/maps-big/UK/London/London-Westminster-Abbey.jpg)

This was where all the Kings and Queens have been crowned, married and many are buried since 900 AD.
    
This is where I wanted to take Carl and Annie, the Henry VII Chapel:
(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/67968000/jpg/_67968407_67968406.jpg)

Do you see the lady with the white hat at the left of the photo. She is seated (now standing) right behind half of the boys choir. This area of seating is usually reserved for visiting dignitaries, English noblemen, and people of title, but on Sunday mornings the public can sit there – if you get to a special gate and have a good place in line.

I was staying at the London Hilton
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/11/08/article-0-00139B8200000258-495_468x307.jpg)

So after a couple hours of sleep I was awakened by a knock on my door at 5:30 AM by room service for some (pre-arranged) coffee and croissants, which I quickly ate, then hastily dressed in some fresh cloths.
(https://postcardslost.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/20140930_105814.jpg)

I quickly got a cab and drove directly to the 5-star Savoy Hotel where Carl and Annie were staying. It was still dark.
(https://images.trvl-media.com/hotels/1000000/30000/27200/27158/27158_311_z.jpg)

Walking past all the Rolls Royce’s and into the lobby, I had to get Carl out of bed, but first I had to get to his room. After some identification checking and explanation, I was escorted by the concierge up to Carl’s suite.

(http://c8.alamy.com/comp/F0960G/concierge-tony-standing-and-smiling-in-savoy-hotel-london-uk-F0960G.jpg)

Carl’s suite looked over the Theme’s river (no Farris wheel in those days).
(http://www.thecitytraveler.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/monet.jpg)

He was deeply asleep as usual. It was always hard to awaken Carl, especially after a show night. He would just roll over and grown. But finally, with some help from Annie, who got right up, we got Carl on his feet. He remembered his promise to me to just do this one thing for me while we were in London. And he complained and made excuses all the way from the bathroom to getting dressed. The morning was getting on, so around 8:00 AM we were ready to go down for a fast breakfast. I did not want to use room service, but rather grab something in one of the dining rooms so that Carl would fully awaken. He was that way -- slow to fully come to conciseness. As you can imagine, a quick breakfast in this place is a joke.
(http://www.venuesoflondon.co.uk/files/6313/7234/5754/savoy-3.jpg)

But we had time for something simple and so we ordered. This is “simple” at the Savoy.
(https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/0d/c2/4b/31/thames-foyer-breakfast.jpg)

I knew London well enough to judge travel times, so I needed to get everyone out of the Savoy by 9AM and to arrive at the Abbey no later than 9:20AM.

Carl wore his warmest coat with a scarf and a sports coat. He looked about like is shown in this photo, taken around that time.
(https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/1st-december-the-beach-boys-pose-in-a-dilapidated-boat-by-the-river-picture-id148173315)

COMMENT:  (Part TWO)

We arrived at the side of the Abbey right on time at 9.25 AM. There’s a special door to enter into so as to get a seat for the service right up with the choir in the Henry VII chapel. We were there in time – I knew we had made it and that Carl and Annie would be able to share in this beautiful service and experience.

We entered the chapel with about 20 minutes until the service started and found our seats right where I envisioned.

We were sitting to the left in this photo, in seats behind the choir stalls, with the blue tapestry to our backs. This is Carl’s view to his left – looking at the Altar.
(http://news.images.itv.com/image/file/807310/stream_img.jpg)

Carl’s view to his right – looking back to the Abbey Nave.
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01861/westminster-abbey_1861299b.jpg)

Carl could see part of the organ from his seat.
(http://www.westminster-abbey.org/__data/assets/thumbnail/0005/112793/Westminster-Abbey-Summer-Organ-Festival-2018.jpg)

What Carl saw as he looked up
(https://archhistdaily.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/vaults.png)

The service started and the choir processional started with the choir taking their places right in front of us and also across from us. The procession continued with the cross, incense, flags, banners, Priests, clergy and choir all making their way past us and up to the Altar.

Take five minutes and listen to what Carl heard. The Queen may not have been there, but the music is the same and the acoustics never change. Here is what it sounded like (in stereo). Remember we are seated right behind the choir (where the clergy is shown with their black and red vestments and white preaching tabs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcfR4utkASo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcfR4utkASo)

Carl was sitting between Annie and myself. I looked over a Carl who more than once was tear-eyed as these heavenly sonorities always cast a spiritual spell over those present. Carl, as a musician, as a Christian, and with this English heredity, was moved beyond the tourist level. As the lesson and Bible verses were read, sometimes by a Priest or child reader, and as the various songs and epistles were sung in absolute perfection, I knew Carl was loving it.

After the service Carl wanted to walk around, so we took one of the tours of the Abbey offered by guides at the end of the service. While the organ played we looked at the many interesting resting places of people of history, such as, Sir Isaac Newton, George Frideric Handel, Charles Dickens, Gharles Darwin, and Robert Browning, plus 13 Kings and 5 Queens from 1066 AD to the present.

After the service and tour, it was back to the Savoy so that Carl could get ready for a press conference and photo opt scheduled for the afternoon,

End of Story.  ~swd

PS … continuing my association with the group, Carl would sometimes reflect back to that service in our discussions over a good bottle of wine, as a moving experience and one he never forgot.

Thanks for that very touching story, Mr. Desper.

Great telling of a story ever-so-easy to equate with Carl.  Good thing you managed to get him 'up and at 'em' Stephen.  As you mentioned he obviously appreciated that you had been successful in your endeavors.  I, too, remember vividly my visit to the Abbey back in 1978...and we didn't even make it for a service but rather just for a tour...which included visiting those 'resting places' you mentioned.  I've always been an avid reader of Dickens...and I'm thankful for change which his writings would have had a hand in encouraging, inspiring and initiating.  We extricated ourselves when the tour was done in order to prowl around a little more and extract more 'FEEL' from that historic spot.

I also note your ability to enunciate the spirituality 'side' of the discussion coin from your unique perspective.  The sections between the lines were entirely legible and they ring true.

Kind of you to bring Carl to tears... ... ...the right way.

Thank you.
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Oh...and a lovely construction of the audio and visuals to accompany the 'telling' and thus turning the package into something entirely special.

This might be thread of the year! :)

Thank you so much for sharing that story about Carl and Annie, Mr. Desper! This one resonates especially with me. My family and I were fortunate enough to attend a service at Westminster Abbey in 1997. We sat in the main transept, in a more public area than you, but it was still a very special opportunity to worship in such a beautiful and historic place. I'm glad to hear you took the Wilsons there.

I'd also like to add my thanks for this uplifting thread!

One of the most beautiful posts I've ever read. Bless you, Mr. Desper.

What a beautiful story, plus visual aids to make it even more vivid. Thank you for that. I love this thread.

Thanks so much Stephen!  You were always special and that post is magnificent. 

Those of us who love the spiritual essence of BBs music, whatever the faith, appreciate the efforts you put into giving Carl that experience. Even when I was the little 17 year old delivering cheeseburgers to Wally Heider as requested from the Ivar offices, I felt the sense of respect for the music and for the fans who loved them, no matter how young and possibly silly we were - they knew we had the ear to hear them on some level.

With all the adversity the Wilson family faced from their own ancestry, they all have been connected to something so fundamentally spiritual (I think of Mike as a Wilson, too - just through his mother rather than father), there is so much to love here.

I believe Mike carries that aggressive, angry side of the Wilson ancestry (a tough one to overcome) and that he has a desire to at least tame it, even overcome it.  I wish him well.  I'd suggest he take his attorney off speed-dial and really recognize how blessed he's been by the softer side of his family.

I remember one of my friends telling me that after I gave Brian all the volumes of "The Life and Teachings of the Masters of the Far East," he was astounded to observe Brian reading the entire series.  He kept telling me that Brian never reads, except he read that.

They all know their connection to the Almighty, whatever you consider it, and created healing beauty out of it.  If you're Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim, Wiccan, Native culture, and more - we hear it and get it.  I don't care the method taken.  Let's just do our best to stay in contact with that which inspires us and allows us to thrive.  I remember reading that the original definition of angels was something akin to "transmitters." 

That is the sense I get from the ancient sites I love to visit from Greece, to Thailand, to Egypt, to the UK & Ireland, to Bali, to Malta. We can all transmit the best of humanity emanating from the heart of our Universe.  Brian and the BBs have done all of this remarkably well in the form of sound.  No wonder we celebrate them here.

So let's celebrate them then Debbie.  When they perform...all of the bad stuff disappears...at least for that length of time...plus the afterglow of that spiritual coming together when the cosmos and the stars contained therein sparkle.  For example...this show really caught the vibes in all their glory.  Everyone, including  Jeff who I sometimes slag a little for not being Carl [but then who is...vocally speaking or otherwise?], is delivering their A game and the collective spirit nails 'it' right in the bullseye.

Maybe...just maybe the most spiritual Beach Boy is the group...the band...the sum of the parts.  When they part the company they keep up on stage...the human factor vies for attention.  But when they do THIS....well...Hallelujah!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-tpbep6s70

THIS is the SS message board.... :hat

Agreed, Lee.  

My first real-life version of the BBs was in a huge hall in Kansas City in July 1964, waiting to get in (I Get Around was #1 then, for many weeks).  I was a child with understanding parents who dropped us off and picked us up - it was safe then. We lined up very dutifully, and suddenly we saw Brian and Mike peek out from behind a door at the crowd with so much joy on their faces seeing the huge crowd.  

We stayed in that formation when we suddenly saw Denny running down the stairs to a parking garage with screamy teenies running behind him - pretty funny.  A few minutes later, we heard the screams and could see Denny running down the hallway at the bottom of the stairs with the teenies behind him.  It's hard to describe, but visually it was hilarious.

Of course, when they actually opened the doors we all rushed to the front and I somehow ended up in the 2nd row, stage-center.  I didn't think of myself as aggressive, but apparently I had my moments.  The BBs performance was real and brilliant.  Yes, Brian hit those notes, guitar in hand and looking amazingly handsome.  Denny was slamming those drums in a way that really electrified all of us, and he did it well.  The harmonies were magnificent and Mike was a good MC for that time.

After the shows, they would stand behind little waist-high guards and sign autographs.  While I was working my way toward Brian I managed to get Denny's and Al's autographs, but they left before I got to Brian.

They have those memories of being demi-gods that many younger posters here didn't experience, nor could they possibly understand that part of their lives, understandably.  I can't even imagine maintaining a person's spirituality in that spotlight, but the seem to have managed, for the most part.  I admire their humanity and sweetness through all of that insanity.  

May each of them find their personal peace out of quite amazing experiences.

I have a strong sense that with all he's endured (and still has to experience with those voices in his head), Brian's in a safe space to enjoy having a lifetime as "Brian Wilson."  If you know how to read him, he makes that clear.  I think Al knows how much he loves his life and home.  I swear I felt Denny and Carl smiling down the first night Brian did "Smile" at RFH.  I hope Mike and Bruce find their own form of happiness.

Here's to them for the Holidays...

I agree, that Jeff and Ike are excellent singers, as are Matt, Darian, Taylor, Scott and others who have served this music.  Brian used to talk about his band  sounding "like angels."  As always, his metaphor was excellent.

Dennis was the man! :lol

But seriously, the BBs at the top of their game live in 1964 had to be amazing! :bw

I wish all of you could experience it.  Then again, I'm old an cranky and you get to be young! ;-) Everything's a trade off.

It was a truly a spiritual experience for little teens.  Many of us never got over it.  Pure brilliance, and spirituality.

I'm working my way through Lee's link.  I had 2 accidents the year of the reunion so actually missed it - couldn't drive due to a broken arm, etc. (so many of you were luckier there).

Hearing Denny doing "Forever" reminded me of when he came into the Ivar offices, so bright-eyed.  He asked me to book a flight for a woman named Barbara Cherron (he said, "yeah, her last name is Cherron" and he spelled it for me) plus a ticket for himself to Las Vegas.  I was happy to do it and I can't say I ever saw anyone look more in love.  Never mind that he had asked me to go to a movie with him the week before.  He made his point clear when he said, "and you can make me breakfast in the morning."  I loved his honesty.  Obviously destiny intervened and I wasn't going anyway ;-)

Stephen is far better at explaining the studio in those days with Carl.  But Carl did ask my opinion as a fan on a "Sunflower" mix and actually used my choice.  They knew their fans.

There was a sweetness with the Wilsons that is inexplicable.

The first time I was on SS board was when someone accused Brian of having a "relationship" with me when I was underage, so I had to respond.  I was 17 when he met me at the Ivar offices and we were both so in love with his music that we had a great discussion.  I mentioned that I had a copy of "John B Sebastian" at home.  He wanted to hear it and he offered me a ride home to hear it.

I lived across a small hallway with a single staircase adjoining Fred Vail's apartment.  The doors were nearly always open.  Brian and I listened to that record and loved it.  Then he went home.  He was a gentleman the entire time.

There is such a thing as human decency - and spirtuality.

OK...I'm not quite ready to put a match to the camp fire and join in on 'Kumbaya'.  Given that I wasn't a little girl...I preferred them after the change brought about following Jack's professionally inspired input as we headed into the 70s.  Even back in '64...and through the 60s...I found their live' thing to be just a little bit square/slightly off-putting.  Granted the music was terrific...although they were falling behind in terms of the fullness of the studio sound when it came to their live delivery by 68-69.  They just struck me as a little out of step with hip and cool until they sat their former 'front man' a little further away from the direct blaze of the main spotlight.

Needless to say I was less impressed when they went back out to tour 15 Big 1's.  By year 50 most of those annoying antics and gesticulations had thankfully faded into the past.

Wow! Great post, Debbie.  :)

That's really lovely, Debbie. Tears-to-the-eyesville.

A wonderful story, Stephen! Thank you!

I wasn't expecting you to relate to being a 12-yr-old girl in those days, Lee... ;-) I guess my attempt failed at showing what these really, really young guys were experiencing from the young girls in the audience.  And they did sound great in those days.  Brian live, sounding like that, need I say more?

While I was several years older when I met Jack, he didn't especially like me (understandably) at the time.  I was still no sophisticate.  But I loved the evolution of the band in the late 60's/early 70's. We little teenies did grow up and learn...

Wow, tremendous input in this thread, thank you all! What I started on a whim has turned into something really good and meaningful here. Whoever is the most spiritual of the BBs, and by now, I am convinced that their collective sound is what matters, it could be interesting to compare them with another musician who is always talking about spirituality, Carlos Santana. Before I became a BB fan, I was an avid fan of Santana, and the band is still way up there, in my book. But just as Brian can be difficult to interview with his terse yes/no replies, so can Carlos, in his own idiosyncratic way. Where the BB's for the most part keep their spiritual search and beliefs to themselves, preferring to let it shine through the music, Carlos is always talking about spirituality, spouting metaphors and talking cryptic. I don't doubt for a minute he means it and lives it, but the BBs quiet, humble way seems to me to be easier to absorb and admire.

Yes we did Debbie...even us 'boys'... ... ...eventually.  :lol

 GoogaMooga...I found Carlos to be a warm, caring, sharing kinda fella.  Down to earth yet entirely spiritual in a sincere/secure kind of way.  In his own way...Carl was most like THAT.  Mike wanted to be...but...posing ain't being.

Thanks, Lee and GoogaMooga.  I loved Jack's lyrics (and was actually bright and literate enough at that point to understand the context and inferences).  I also watched the attacks on Jack swirling around me on Ivar.  Did he misrepresent his "Pulitzer Prize?"...probably.  I still loved the lyrics and Jack was a great guy...and he was right about me.  I was a goofy fan with a good brain who was afraid to express myself, except to Brian and Dennis. 

I'm glad Carl protected Jack for so long.  Jack was a real talent.  Van Dyke was Brian's amazing expression of what needed to be addressed.  Jack was Carl's.  If only...

 :-\ Memoir coming? 

How great would that be? :happydance

I thought I was one of the few who liked Jack's lyrics and what he brought to the group. Sure, his background was sketchy, but does that matter when he did so many great things for The Beach Boys? Oh, how I wish Carl(and Dennis and Brian) had had an ally in Jack once the "TM axis" took hold. Things may have been very different.

No Jay...I'm with you.  Jack helped the Boys realize some important goals and attain some previously unreachable heights.  With Brian pulling back...Carl and then Dennis had contributions to help keep the creativity factor going while holding the cheerleaders at bay.  Jack Riley and Gregg Jakobson were important in helping to make it work.  Factor in Brian with Tony and then Van Dyke...and THAT'S when the band rose above the throng and, with that instrumentation, those lyrics, melodies, arrangements and THOSE VOICES, stood alone as creative innovators... ... ...and... ... ...truly... ... ...COOL.
--------------


OMmmmmmmm

I'm probably too busy and lazy to write a memoir, and much of it actually wouldn't be BB's related. 

My life has been quite a bizarre journey - NY FBI agents at my door in 1996 over TWA 800 investigation as an example.

I'm old and dull now, though.

I was kind of hoping that someone might put together my posts here and on BW Tour page, plus emails. I think that's probably too much to ask, so I may have to get to work...damn...

I want to add my thanks to you Stephen for the wonderful Carl story - and on a date so close to his birthday.

I wish a special Christmas wish to come your way. -Will

Great story, Stephen!

Debbie, I loved your posts, too.

Thanks to both for sharing these stories with us  :)

Stephen, thank you so much for writing all that up. And Debbie, as always your stories help make this band come alive. We’re honored to have you both posting here!

Nonsense, Debbie. I always enjoy reading your (and Mr Desper's) fascinating posts, glimpses into an extraordinary past...

I'll do it!  :)

FYI -

I have several posts on the spirituality of The Beach Boys.

https://prayforsurfblog.blogspot.com/search?q=spiritual

Phil

Obviously it's an impossible question to answer.
But if you ask me to name the most spiritual album I've ever heard, the first one that comes to mind is Pacific Ocean Blue.

This is FULL of great stuff. Thanks for sharing this. Looking through 'Stephen John Kalinich ~ A Conversation' - a couple amazing things:


I have always held a special place in my heart for this song - very cool to hear how it was inspired.


It's no wonder that Pet Sounds has so much emotional/spiritual power in it, that Brian & Carl prayed a lot during that album.

I would have to say Pet Sounds, but POB is definitely up there for sure - almost nothing as soul-stirring as the outro of 'Moonshine'. I feel like 'Today!' has a lot of spirituality on it - not at all in the lyrics really, but the feel of that album is very spiritual to me - can't really explain it though.

So glad to see this thread resurrected, it contains commentary from some very special personages who were particularly qualified to weigh in on this subject.

Regarding spiritual elements in the BBs songs, let's note that there are other "flavors" of spirituality that dovetail with its religious manifestations, including anguish, lamentation, acceptance of loss, and redemption. Much of Dennis' work fits into these tonalities, and it gets more pronounced in the POB material, where he even touches upon a more mystical appreciation of the spiritualitv of love in "Tug of Love," which was thankfully restored to us when the double-CD collection was released (along, of course, with "Holy Man").

And there's a reason why Dennis appropriated the lyrics of Bob Burchman for "It's About Time," with their themes of redemption and spiritual growth.

The essence of love takes a mystical/sexual dimension in something like Carl's "Feel Flows," and the group found a framework for their TM leanings in "All This Is That."

The astrology lyrics that Mike supplied for "Funky Pretty" are a bit too glib to be truly "spiritual," but the elusive "Pisces lady" is called that explicitly, and its a primary aspect of the singer's attraction and love for her--which is all part of a pattern of "romantic spirituality" that permeates a string of BB love songs.

I'll echo what SMiLE Brian said seven years ago in this same wonderful thread:
"THIS is the SS message board..."

I would argue that nowadays, AL Jardine is the one:

http://www.smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,28242.msg681048.html#msg681048