Awesome New Mike Love Article!!

[Cam Mott]

If anyone wants to discuss or opine about this: "Sometimes it feels to me like some people are more outraged (or whatever) at Mike's continuing hurt feelings than they are with the people and actions that hurt Mike" instead of diverting and accusing and insulting I'll be around (no need to call me out).

OK,  I'll answer this. In consideration of the history, what right has Mike to hurt feelings? Mike has received financial reparation, he got the chance to have a reunion (and ended that... badly), he has repeatedly dragged up Brian's drug abuse and mental problems, the way Mike behaved at the R&RHOF, 'Your husband had better write a big hit because he is going to have to write me a big cheque'...... Things like this do not present him in a sympathetic light and therefore people are not inclined to feel sorry for him.

Mike is an extremely wealthy man who seems to enjoy his career.

Brian had an abusive father, mental health issues, Landy and the litigation from Mike to endure. And despite these things has hardly ever been publicly rude to Mike. It's a no brainer.

So the topic is feelings and you deflect to  finance. The topic is Mike and wrongs done him and you deflect to Brian and "wrongs" done him that aren't Mike's doing or were reactions to wrongs done Mike (except the 2004 suit). And I'm the deflector?

I think you just illustrated my point too.

You asked why people are outraged by Mike's hurt feelings rather than by the people who supposedly caused them. I explained why IMO this was the case. Putting it even more simply for you, because they consider Mike's hurt feelings have inadequate justification or at least inadequate justification for the level of his 'hurt'.

All by deflecting and blaming the victim.

[18thofMay]

Just read through the 8 pages of this thread. Thanks to all the regular posters for their contributions. New thread, same objectives.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

Getting back to the article, I have read interview after interview where Mike blames the end of  the C50 on his lack of access to Brian.

Yet, here Mike tells the tale of he and Brian alone in the back of a car, stuck in a traffic jam in 2012 (with Jackie driving). This lack of access seems to be another false spin Mike is weaving!

[SMiLE Brian]

Yeah BBs spent the  most alone time with each other in decades on the C50.

[AndrewHickey]

Please explain this further, Andrew.  I guess I need the crayons and construction paper.  Yet, I'm out of the house for probably 12 hours, so will have to search your reply then. Sorry, but I will look tomorrow.

I'm not sure why it's my responsibility to explain...

Mike got a settlement for song credits a long time ago, that Brian either was oblivious to, or didn't fight with his father about.

Those are two of the possibilities. The other obvious possibilities are that Mike is lying or mistaken and he didn't deserve those credits at all, or that Brian was actively complicit (as Mike has sometimes claimed and at other times not). There's the possibility that credits were missed off accidentally rather than on purpose. There's the possibility that in some edge cases there can be genuine disagreement as to what counts as a songwriting contribution (for example "409" was apparently written entirely by Brian and Gary Usher -- but then Mike came up with the "she's real fine my 409" intro idea and "giddy-up" backing vocal line -- is that a songwriting contribution or just an arrangement or production idea on the same level as a guitar solo?) There's also the possibility that all of those things apply to different extents for different songs.

Mike seemed to take a very long time to contest the credits (well, until after Brian got some money from A&M).  Then he got his apparently generous settlement.

Yes.

Then, several years later he made some pretty intense statements about Brian's involvement with the BBs after the mid-60's, that obviously don't add up.  But we're burying that little item, aren't we?  Good job.

No-one's "burying" anything. It was a stupid, frivolous lawsuit, with no legal grounds. I said so ten years ago, I say so now. If anyone cares enough, I'll say so ten years from now too.

That "borderline frivolous lawsuit" also included a truly awful description of Brian and his band that clearly wasn't justified by the reviews, nor Brian's contemporary artists who were clearly delighted, and an attack on Al Jardine that seemed to have nothing to do with the lawsuit.  Sorry, but there's something wrong here.

I agree. Those are bad things. I don't think anyone in the whole thread has suggested they aren't, and I'm not sure why you're asking me to "explain" otherwise. For the avoidance of doubt:
I believe Mike Love's lawsuit about Smile was completely unjustified both morally and legally.
I think the description of Brian's performances in the document quoted is incorrect.
There are numerous obvious factual errors in that document.
The stuff about Al in that document had nothing to do with anything in the suit, and was uncalled-for.
Brian's band are the single best live band I've ever seen.
I actually prefer the completed 2004 Smile to the unfinished 60s recordings.
From my very brief meetings with them, as far as I can judge, Al Jardine is a more personable man than Mike Love is.

I've not, at any point, *EVER*, said anything about the 2005 lawsuit that contradicts any of that. So quite what you want me to "explain" I don't know.

On the other hand, I *do* think that the 2005 lawsuit is, fundamentally, an uninteresting topic for discussion. It was uncontroversially decided the right way, and all one can learn from it is that Mike Love is a somewhat litigious person -- something almost no-one would deny.

The lawsuit around the songwriting credits is far more interesting, because it actually tells us something about the creative process that led to the music we all love; because it was and is more controversial (nearly everyone agrees that Mike deserved some of the credit he got, but almost no-one agrees that he deserves *all* of that credit -- California Girls on one side and Wouldn't It Be Nice on the other being the obvious cases here); and because it gives us an insight into why the various band members might have problems with each other, and how those problems have affected the band.

So people talking about that lawsuit and not about the Smile one aren't "burying" the Smile lawsuit -- they/we're just talking about those things that are *actually interesting to talk about*, about which a wide range of possible views can reasonably be expressed, and from which it might be possible to gain a greater understanding of the band.

There's literally nothing worth saying about the Smile lawsuit, once one has said "this is clearly a nonsense" -- or at least no-one has been able, in ten years, to find anything else worth saying about it. Perhaps, rather than accusing others of "burying" things -- rather than just not being particularly interested in talking about one aspect of a fairly wide-ranging thread -- you might try finding something interesting to say about it yourself?

[Cam Mott]

Actually haven't we been told by the LA Times or something that Brian's lawyers enlisted Mike to testify for Brian in making their case against Irving Music and they would restore his due credit?  Then Brian's lawyers didn't do what they agreed to and Mike lawyers had to sue to get his credit established.

[Chownow]

I'm largely indifferent to Mike Love. Up til know he always struck me as a vaguely ridiculous figure. This article certainly didn't change my opinion.

However that law suit info that Empire of Love posted is really eye opening. That's just vile.

It seems to me that what M Love really wants is respect that he doesn't get from the music industry or his peers. He assumes this is because he didn't get  credit for writing some of  the lyrics for some of BBs earlier hits, so he sues and wins (though it seems now his credits are over stated). Did this win him the respect he thinks he deserves? Nope.

If anything it seems his lawsuits have made him more reviled.   

[Jim V.]

Please explain this further, Andrew.  I guess I need the crayons and construction paper.  Yet, I'm out of the house for probably 12 hours, so will have to search your reply then. Sorry, but I will look tomorrow.

I'm not sure why it's my responsibility to explain...

I'm pretty sure Debbie actually meant for that to be directed at Ron, who said something about not wanting to "get the crayons and construction paper out to explain" or something like that.

So hopefully our friend Ron indeed does get his crayons out and shows us that "battle axe" Brian has been wielding.

[guitarfool2002]

Wow - Just getting back after a few days away and all this to read and process... 

[The Cincinnati Kid]

Wow - Just getting back after a few days away and all this to read and process... 

Good luck. 

[clack]

Trying to think of a case equivalent to Mike's : closest I can come up with is Johnnie Johnson, Chuck Berry's pianist and uncredited co-writer on most of Berry's classic tunes.

Of course, Mike wound up in a mansion, Johnson wound up driving a bus.

[The LEGENDARY OSD]

Maybe we don't get to tell the Boys how to feel because we haven't walked in their shoes.

We are only having a discussion, we can't dictate or make a bandmember feel a certain way if they're not going to feel that way.

I haven't walked in Landy's shoes, yet I can "tell" the ghost of Landy that he was being super sh*tty by taking advantage of Brian, and I think you'd probably agree. And you're able to call Brian out on sh*tty behavior (as I too am), like the songwriting snubbing, but somehow you cannot say the same about Mike at any point.

I will say that Brian snubbing Mike over, California Girls, for example, was not excusable, it was not right. Can you bring yourself to say the same about any action from Mike to Brian? That Mike ever did something to Brian that Cam would qualify as simply wrong, not right, f*cked up?

It's not in Mike's DNA to take responsibility for the wrongs he has committed and somehow he seems to have passed this DNA on to his biggest fans.

EoL

Uh, what we got here is the winning post for this thread. A genuine five wooter, by krackie. 

[Kurosawa]

Trying to think of a case equivalent to Mike's : closest I can come up with is Johnnie Johnson, Chuck Berry's pianist and uncredited co-writer on most of Berry's classic tunes.

Of course, Mike wound up in a mansion, Johnson wound up driving a bus.

Johnnie was also a thousand times better musician and more important to the history of rock than Mike is. Mike wasn't even the best surf rock frontman, that was Jan Berry.

[Ang Jones]

It seems to me that it is impossible to repair Mike's hurt feelings because his real problem is that he resents Brian being more talented than he is. So Mike can be given full credit for everything he contributed, he can have every penny to which he is entitled, and still he isn't satisfied.

It is very sad that we're not all equally talented, good looking and rich. But that's life.

[Empire Of Love]

Does anyone find this quote from the lawsuit perplexing:

"Between 1967 and 2002, Brian was essentially too ill to do anything but collect his royalties, including revenues from BRI and his 25% share of Mike Love’s license royalties."

A quick survey of the BB catalog from this time period indicates Brian had a hand in either writing or recording the following:

Heroes and Villains
Wind Chimes
Surf’s Up
Vege-tables
Tones
I Love To Say Dada
Good News
Little Pad
Good Time Mama
Fall Breaks And Back To Winter
With Me Tonight
She’s Goin’ Bald
Whistle In
Gettin Hungry
Wild Honey
Aren’t You Glad
Time To Get Alone
The Letter
Game of Love
Cool Cool Water
Here Comes The Night
A Thing Or Two
Darlin
Can’t Wait Too Long
Lonely Days
Let The Wind Blow
Mama Says
I’d Love Just Once To See You
Country Air
When A Man Needs  A Woman
You’re As Cool As Can Be
Be Here in the morning
Friends
Our Happy Home
Passing By
Busy Doin’ Nothin
Wake The World
Meant For You
Anna Lee The Healer
Trancendental Meditation
Diamond Head
Walk On By
Old Folks At Home/Old Man River
Do It Again
We’re Together Again
I Went To Sleep
Sail Plane Song
Walkin
I’ll Keep On Loving You
As Tears Go By
Cotton Fields
When Girls Get Together
All I Wanna Do
Deidre
Break Away
Games Two Can Play
Our Sweet Love
Til I Die
Soulful Old Man Sunshine
At My Window
This Whole World
Add Some Music To Your Day
Where Is She
Take A Load Off Your Feet
I Just Got My Pay
Good Time
H.E.L.P. Is On The Way
My Solution
A Day In The Life Of A Tree
You Need A Mess Of Help
He Come Down
Marcella
Funky Pretty
Mount Vernon & Fairway
Sail On Sailer
Falling In Love
Had To Phone Ya
Shortenin Bread
Patty cake
Ding Dang
California Feelin
Child Of Winter
Good Timin
It’s OK
Come Go With Me
Winter Symphony
Running Bear
He’s So Fine
Let’s Dance
Secret Love
Peggy Sue
Blueberry Hill
Palisades Park
Honkin Down The Highway
Chapel Of Love
Talk To Me
On Broadway
In The Still Of The Night
Mony Mony
Rock and Roll Music
Just Once In My Life
A Casual Look
TM Song
Everyone’s In Love With You
That Same Song
Michael Row The Boat Ashore
Shake Rattle And Roll
Airplane
I’ll Be He’s Nice
Love Is A Woman
Mona
Still I Dream Of It
It’s Over Now
Let Us Go on This Way
Johnny Carson
The Night Was So Young
I Wanna Pick You Up
Hey Little Tomboy
Solar System
Roller Skating Child
We Gotta Groove
My Diane
Life Is For The Living
Deep Purple
Lines
Wontcha Come Out Tonight
She’s Got Rhythm
Sweet Sunday Kind Of Love
Belles Of Paris
Pitter Patter
Matchpoint Of Our Love
Our Team
Santa Ana Wins
Goin On
Goin To The Beach
Crack At Your Love
California Calling
I’m So Lonely
It’s Just A Matter Of Time
Male Ego
Soul Searchin

Brian was too ill to do anything from 1967-2002 beside collect royalties on the back of Mike Love's hard work?  That does seem even remotely close to a true statement.  I don't know about all of you but some of my absolute favorite Beach Boys songs can be found in this list.  This makes me ask why Mike would misrepresent the facts in regards to Brian's contributions during this time period, to this great of a degree, in a lawsuit?  Something isn't right here.

EoL

[AndrewHickey]

Does anyone find this quote from the lawsuit perplexing:

"Between 1967 and 2002, Brian was essentially too ill to do anything but collect his royalties, including revenues from BRI and his 25% share of Mike Love’s license royalties."

Everyone does. It's laughably wrong.

[Empire Of Love]

Does anyone find this quote from the lawsuit perplexing:

"Between 1967 and 2002, Brian was essentially too ill to do anything but collect his royalties, including revenues from BRI and his 25% share of Mike Love’s license royalties."

Everyone does. It's laughably wrong.

Ha, yeah, I would hope so.  When I read a claim like this, and consider many subsequent claims and the constant tearing down of Brian in regards to the past (drugs and debilitating mental illness) and the present (controlled by his wife and managers), it comes across as an eerie combination of jealousy, defamation (toward Melinda), and historical revisionism.

EoL

[Ang Jones]

If anyone wants to discuss or opine about this: "Sometimes it feels to me like some people are more outraged (or whatever) at Mike's continuing hurt feelings than they are with the people and actions that hurt Mike" instead of diverting and accusing and insulting I'll be around (no need to call me out).

OK,  I'll answer this. In consideration of the history, what right has Mike to hurt feelings? Mike has received financial reparation, he got the chance to have a reunion (and ended that... badly), he has repeatedly dragged up Brian's drug abuse and mental problems, the way Mike behaved at the R&RHOF, 'Your husband had better write a big hit because he is going to have to write me a big cheque'...... Things like this do not present him in a sympathetic light and therefore people are not inclined to feel sorry for him.

Mike is an extremely wealthy man who seems to enjoy his career.

Brian had an abusive father, mental health issues, Landy and the litigation from Mike to endure. And despite these things has hardly ever been publicly rude to Mike. It's a no brainer.

So the topic is feelings and you deflect to  finance. The topic is Mike and wrongs done him and you deflect to Brian and "wrongs" done him that aren't Mike's doing or were reactions to wrongs done Mike (except the 2004 suit). And I'm the deflector?

I think you just illustrated my point too.

You asked why people are outraged by Mike's hurt feelings rather than by the people who supposedly caused them. I explained why IMO this was the case. Putting it even more simply for you, because they consider Mike's hurt feelings have inadequate justification or at least inadequate justification for the level of his 'hurt'.

All by deflecting and blaming the victim.

Have we established that he is a victim? In your somewhat biased opinion but not all of us agree with you.

And I love Empire of Love's list of Brian's work during those years he supposedly contributed so little.

"Victim". Give it a rest.

[Cyncie]

Well. Once again Mike gets the opportunity to repair some of the damage to his reputation, and instead, he just confirms what people have been saying all along. You would think, by now, someone would clue him in that he's his own worst enemy. Seriously, for someone who does all this meditating, Mike has to be one of the least self-aware people ever. I guess that's to be expected, though, since his primary reason for selecting  T.M. as a spiritual practice was that he didn't have to make any personal sacrifice.

Once again, when contacted to comment on Mike's interview points, Brian takes the high road and declines to argue them.

I think this quote from Al basically sums it up. “Mike has his own vision of what the Beach Boys are, and he doesn’t need us anymore,” says Jardine. “It’s like, ‘Wow, that hurts.’ I mean, he’s obviously a terrific singer, and, oh, gosh, he’s just so clever with lyrics, but his strength was his ties to Brian, who is, let’s face it, the golden goose of all time. I think he really just wants to be back in the locker room at Dorsey High, being that guy who threw the most touchdowns – he has to have that recognition.”

Al's meditation seems to be working. He gets it. I'm guessing the golden goose got tired of being the golden goose a long time ago. And, if that's how Mike still sees him, it's unlikely they'll be writing in a room anytime soon. Oddly enough, it seems that Jackie might get that, too. “I don’t want to make you cry, but would you greet him as being your cousin and collaborator in music first, or just as a collaborator?" Of course, Mike can't get to the point of seeing any of that and falls back on how vilified he's been.

The way I see it, even though he's trying to play the victim,  Mike really has everything he's entitled to. He's been given credit and recompense for all of those lyrics from the past, and without any real contest from Brian. He has the rights to the touring band, which he worked to keep afloat, and uses The Beach Boys name to play as many shows a year as he wants. He has a big house and money. He's in the spotlight.

The one thing Mike Love doesn't have is the respect and legacy that cousin Brian has.  Frankly, I don't see that changing any time soon.

[Empire Of Love]

The issue here for me is this: Mike is great. Awesome singer and frontman and great songwriting partner to Brian. I am 39 years old, I've lived long enough to have suffered betrayal, cheating, went to through the difficulties of life just like anybody. Now, grudges are part of life. Mike is entitled to his. Why shouldn't he hold grudges? Who on this board has co-written a smash hit song and not been credited for it. How about 4 or 5 massive hit songs? We assume these guys are just pawns in our pre-conceived or learned view of this group. But they are suffering individuals. Heck, Dennis held a grudge through the late 1970s since he learned that Brian had to be convinced by their mother to include him in the group.

Knock yourself out.  Enjoy Mike.  Grab your beach ball and go to the show.  No one is trying to stop you.  The endless talking point about a lawsuit that was settle years ago is getting old though.  Re-read the RS article about some of the huge "co-writing" contributions.  Then re-read that 2005 lawsuit.  Do I have to copy and post it again?

The 2005 lawsuit was also settled years ago. Talking about that is also "getting old". Mike was largely in the right in the lawsuit over songwriting credits, and he was completely in the wrong in the lawsuit about Smile.

And you fans who "love them all equally" have no objection, much less outrage over this?

A lot of us thought it hugely outrageous *at the time*. Remaining outraged a decade later seems a little much, though.
(Though I don't know if I'm one of those fans who "love them all equally" -- 90% or more of what I love about the Beach Boys comes from Brian. I just don't think Mike is a completely worthless human being with literally no talent, and in the overly-polarised world of Beach Boys fandom that makes me seem to be taking Mike's side a lot of the time.)

Usually AGD would jump in and correct the above inaccuracy regarding this lawsuit but for some reason he is absent this time.  Yes, the Smile lawsuit is a little more recent than you might think - Mike kept it going (and going and going and going) until a little over five years ago:

https://www.docketalarm.com/cases/California_Central_District_Court/2--05-cv-07798/Mike_Love_v._Mail_on_Sunday_et_al/

Warning: you might get dizzy scrolling through all of the filings and other minutia.

So it is a bit old, but not quite as old as you might think and certainly not as old as it got to be for Brian and his legal team to keep addressing the suit which was frivolous to begin with.  But I give Mike credit, he is as persistent in his legal maneuvering as he is in his touring.  

EoL

[Empire Of Love]

To be clear, I don't bring up this old (but not as old as some would say) lawsuit just to drag Mike through the mud (he doesn't need my help to do that).  I bring it up for two reasons:

1. To show a pattern of behavior that continues to this day, mostly through the media; and
2. To show Mike isn't the innocent victim.  He was wronged many moons ago and those wrongs have been as righted as possible.  Yet he continued to seek revenge through the courts and the media.

I would ostracize my cousin too if he treated me this way, especially if he did so in public every chance he got.  He makes it hard for us to see him as the victim - as he claims in the RS interview (“I’ve been ostracized,” he says quietly. “Vilified. In other words, f***ed with.”).  Talk about old...

EoL

[Bill30022]

I think that Al nailed it.

I suspect that one of the reasons C50 crashed and burned was that each night the final introduction and the loudest applause was reserved for Brian Wilson and that irritated Mike to no end.

[Amy B.]

I think that Al nailed it.

I suspect that one of the reasons C50 crashed and burned was that each night the final introduction and the loudest applause was reserved for Brian Wilson and that irritated Mike to no end.

Yes, Al was on the money.
And I think the applause for Brian had to be one of the irritating factors leading to the end of C50, certainly. I went to one of the shows, and I will freely admit that Mike MADE the show what it was. He really is such a pro onstage. You can relax and enjoy yourself because you know he's up there having a good time. Brian is just not that guy. But the audience knows that it's Brian who created most of the music, putting in the effort not on stage but behind the scenes. And like it or not, many audience members have empathy for a guy who looks uncomfortable onstage, especially knowing what he's been through. If Mike resents the adulation for Brian, then he just doesn't have the perspective to understand where it's coming from. Mike thinks he's the one scoring touchdowns during the shows, so how come the water guy is getting all the applause? Well, the water guy orchestrated the brilliant play. (Forgive me if that's a bad analogy. I'm not a football person.)

[AndrewHickey]

Usually AGD would jump in and correct the above inaccuracy regarding this lawsuit but for some reason he is absent this time.  Yes, the Smile lawsuit is a little more recent than you might think - Mike kept it going (and going and going and going) until a little over five years ago:

https://www.docketalarm.com/cases/California_Central_District_Court/2--05-cv-07798/Mike_Love_v._Mail_on_Sunday_et_al/

Warning: you might get dizzy scrolling through all of the filings and other minutia.

So it is a bit old, but not quite as old as you might think and certainly not as old as it got to be for Brian and his legal team to keep addressing the suit which was frivolous to begin with.  But I give Mike credit, he is as persistent in his legal maneuvering as he is in his touring.  

EoL

Looking at that, the actual lawsuit itself ended in May 2007 -- everything after that is argument about who paid the lawyers' fees.

[Debbie KL]

To be clear, I don't bring up this old (but not as old as some would say) lawsuit just to drag Mike through the mud (he doesn't need my help to do that).  I bring it up for two reasons:

1. To show a pattern of behavior that continues to this day, mostly through the media; and
2. To show Mike isn't the innocent victim.  He was wronged many moons ago and those wrongs have been as righted as possible.  Yet he continued to seek revenge through the courts and the media.

I would ostracize my cousin too if he treated me this way, especially if he did so in public every chance he got.  He makes it hard for us to see him as the victim - as he claims in the RS interview (“I’ve been ostracized,” he says quietly. “Vilified. In other words, f***ed with.”).  Talk about old...

EoL

Well, this has certainly gotten more interesting, even if it is tedious reading.  

While I apologize to Mr. Hickey for addressing him instead of the correct poster in my rush to go out the door and hear my niece perform (never post in a rush I keep telling myself), I did have questions about his thoughts that the 2005 suit should just be dismissed in all of our eyes for not being "interesting."  And imagine how heartbroken I was to find that my posts aren't interesting to Mr. Hickey.  

Reading this new information, I guess I have to concede that Mr. Love is a highly charitable figure.  He is clearly a "job creator" for the legal field - those he employs and the legal teams his respondents have to hire.  There are probably also process servers, court employees, heaven knows how many people benefit from this.  Possibly this information isn't "interesting," but it could be enlightening I'm thinking.  

Frankly, I think that the 2005-2010 lawsuit addresses a lot of Mr. Love's questions in the RS interview.  Many of us are exhausted by his relentlessly repeating the same old complaints, in the press and in the courts.