The Smiley Smile Message Board

Howie Edelson will be interviewed on WFMU's Michael Shelley Show, available online at wfmu.org, next Saturday July 2nd at 11am est.

https://wfmu.org/ (https://wfmu.org/)

https://www.wfmu.org/playlists/SH (https://www.wfmu.org/playlists/SH)

From Michael's page:

Sat. Jul 2nd, 11am - 1pm: Beach Boys Creative Consultant Howie Edelson
Michael chats with Howie Edelson, creative consultant for The Beach Boys' Brother Records, about the band's 60th anniversary and the newly release 80 song collection "Sounds Of Summer" which includes 24 new mixes, which in some cases feature the latest in controversial digital stereo extraction technology.

For those who can't listen live, all the shows are archived and available at the WFMU site after they air.

Michael Shelley has one of the best radio shows around, between Michael at 11am on WFMU and Ben Vaughn on WXPN at 5pm, Saturday radio (or online) listening is fantastic around here...check it out!

Howie will be on shortly, just a reminder. And for those who can't listen live, the shows are archived at the links above.

Did he say anything that will piss off the other board? 😂

I’m hearing reports that Howie said “We’ve all heard the last of the psychedelic barbershop quartet.” ;)

In all seriousness, looking forward to hearing the replay. I’m glad Howie hasn't bern deterred by some whining children on the web.

It appears so. Of course I think if Howie said "Hello" it would piss off some of them, unfortunately. Howie is one of the good guys in the whole deal.

I thought it was a good interview.

I do find it odd that Howie can't hear the missing "s" in Good Vibrations, but heh, I don't have his ears so I can't judge. That being said, I really find it odd that it made it through the entire release process and no one commented on it (to me it is very noticeable). And that goes for other things in a few of the mixes.

Honestly I just can't see where people are coming from with the high-end compression complaints - and I'm not saying they're wrong in what they hear, but I just don't hear anything that makes me want to not listen to these mixes again...and to the degree that I've seen two instances (could be the same person) where there are calls for Mark to be fired from his job. I listened to some of the tracks that people found "unlistenable" on Feel Flows and the new set, and I just don't hear what the fuss is about. Thankfully I don't hear the over-compression stuff (or I do and my brain thinks it sounds good) and I'm overall very happy with the new mixes. There is something about the way Brian sings "well it's been building up inside of me for I don't know how long" - the way that "for" comes through in the new mix is worth every penny of this set. It's a gem that I just had never picked up on in previous mixes - it's definitely there in previous mixes, but his inflection on that part shines in this mix.

Anywho, thanks for the interview Howie, and thanks for making us aware of it, Guitarfool.

Look at the people making those calls though….one of the is the resident town drunk and basically yells every time he posts. For every legit complaint , you got people like him, Manning, and that tomtom guy . Let them do their little boomer boycott. “It’s too loud” ..please… there a little volume dial..you can have one of your grandkids show you how to lower the volume 🙄

I also heard the missing "s" in "wears" on the new GV track, FYI. I don't know how or why that could have happened, but again that's just my take.

After hearing Howie's interview posted above, I also don't understand what all the fuss is about. They're different mixes of classic tracks, at the end of the day. The level of anger directed at the mixes and the people who constructed them and the new set is beyond what I think most of us would have expected. But again it also reminds me of the level of hate directed at Brian's NPP album even before the full album came out. It goes beyond disliking the sound of a song or a song itself when the attacks get personal.

These personal attacks on Howie and Mark Linett seem more political or grudge-fueled than anything that would begin to resemble constructive criticism. It's pathetic to see people calling for their heads literally, unless some of this is about others wanting their jobs or old-fashioned jealousy that someone got a gig which others covet. I don't get it. But it's rotten to the core to see Howie and Mark getting attacked personally...again, consider the sources. And it's also sad to not see more prominent voices not speaking up in defense of these two men who did a hell of a lot of truly great stuff for the fans.

Speaking of, the level of hypocrisy and double-standards is off the charts regarding this recent leak of BRI vault material on YouTube that has been getting pulled down. So it's ok to celebrate and not pay for that, which is leaked "unbooted" vault material, but it's a cardinal sin to listen to BB's tracks streaming on YouTube or Amazon through official channels?

For f**k's sake.

No different than all the unreleased unbooted material you have had in your collection gf. And don’t start that high horse crap with me. We traded this stuff back and forth with each other 7-8 years ago. Remember?  ( i still have the emails showing all of this)

So you and others at one point came back to this board to accuse me of piracy or "illegally downloading" tracks, tried to suggest something that I said here was one of the reasons why the FF box was delayed, and continued to lie elsewhere about what actually happened, and I'm the one on the "high horse"?

I just find it ironic that after all the outrage directed at me for listening to one of the copyright extension releases on the official Beach Boys YouTube channel, then paying for it through my Amazon music subscription, that some of those who were "outraged" are now encouraging and going crazy over leaked tracks uploaded unofficially to YouTube, not paying for them, and ripping them for their own collections.

So if you're going to be outraged that I listened to released tracks on the official Beach Boys YouTube channel and accuse me of "illegally downloading" them, which I did not, and all but blame me at one point for scuppering the release of Feel Flows (or was that Manning, I don't recall), then celebrate and encourage the uploading, sharing, and downloading of leaked BRI vault material, that's pure hypocrisy Steve.

I have the emails/messages too. I hope you're still enjoying the 60's KHJ radio station airchecks I sent you, that's some of my favorite audio out of everything I own.

Not to mention, it’s perfectly OK for a moderator of a BB board to not get called out when he says that he would boycott future product.  

The outrage is only expressed when someone is falsely charged with advocating a boycott of official releases and falsely accused of illegally downloading an official release, but not when others openly say they're boycotting releases and openly celebrating and downloading and even encouraging the uploading of unreleased vault material.

Yeah, that's hypocrisy. Sorry for stating the obvious.

This is where the ugly politics of all this stuff starts infecting the whole thing. It's ok to lie and point fingers and make false accusations if you don't like a person or carry a grudge against them (or want them to disappear, period), but when those pointing the fingers and making the false accusations actually do the same things openly and publicly...that's ok. What a load of crap.

Not sure if the esq chat will happen if that board keeps celebrating stolen music…

I can't imagine any of the team (Howie, Mark, Alan, etc) wanting to step into such an onslaught of vitriol. For starters, one of the most vocal/harshest critics of the SoS set on that forum has gone on disturbing homophobic tirades in the past (doesn't sound like an environment I'd want to willingly place myself). Secondly, the forum's very own administrator treated Howie so disrespectfully when Howie was responding to the criticisms of his podcast interview...If the admin of their forum can't even act like a grown-up when interacting with a Beach Boys insider then they really shouldn't expect others on that forum to act any differently (and many have proven this point in recent weeks). Thirdly, they're still railing into Howie over there after his radio interview (and some are even trying to calm others down lest the Zoom meeting doesn't happen). I believe one person is claiming Howie said he didn't like the drums from the original Marcella - which I think is not at all what Howie was saying: He was saying that when he heard the new mix he wasn't too thrilled about the drums, but then he just decided to go along for the ride ("stop being a geek") and enjoy it for what it is: a mix that brings out a lot of elements that were buried before. Which is a perfectly logical standpoint. He's just being open and honest about how he looks at things.

And knocking Howie for not being able to hear the missing "s" - I mean, I find it odd too, but again, I don't have his ears. My father has hearing loss due to a war and going to a Chicago concert haha, he can't hear certain sounds anymore. That being said, I think there should be a more rigorous quality control element added onto the pre-release process for this very reason. But I'm also not going to knock a guy for not being able to hear something that is already very soft in the mix.

I mean people are just being relentless about anything to do with Howie and this set over there. It is mildly disturbing at this point. What's really odd to me is that I have seen some of these same posters twist themselves into pretzels to defend Mike Love's actions or comments toward/about Brian Wilson, and here Howie makes some harmless comments about his perspective and it's as if he invaded Poland.


What I find most interesting are those who either deny or ignore that the politics are even at play right now. The "it's all about the music" line actually means "please ignore any obvious moves we're making to put ourselves in positions to help [____] camp out. Thanks."

It's so obvious, yet so many people just ignore it or are too entrenched to see it.

We have seen all this for many years and are probably used to it, but if you stop a moment to think seriously about it, it's really mind boggling. I guess that in Beatles fandom there are pro-John and pro-Paul factions, but "Paulista" is a name for a citizen of São Paulo, not an insult directed at the fans of Sir Paul McCartney.

What I find odd about the attitude of a few folks regarding these latest tracks is that there is a befuddling "ha ha, you got caught flat-footed Brother Records!" attitude even though the tracks, as they were unearthed however long ago (is it about 8 years now?), have obviously been known about by all pertinent factions all this time. Articles were literally written about it back then. Also, while I have no idea precisely how "common" the tracks have been, they have been "out there" for quite some time, and I'm sure all parties have been aware of that as well.

Also, the "you should have released this!" stuff is perplexing as well. Obviously, we'd all love more archival releases, and we're now finally getting that over the last several years. But I see gripes that *this* precise collection of tracks should have been released. Do people saying this not understand the context for these tracks? 22 years ago these were going to be spread across CD reissues of individual albums, and even then, these were just *prospective* tracks.

Even if they chose now to do a career-spanning archival compilation, this is not how such a compilation would be released. It wouldn't look like this. I would imagine if the "Feel Flows" style collections continue, we'll see most of these tracks (and by the time the 72/73 set is released, a good hunk of these tracks will have seen release). Weird, stripped-down "underdub" mixes of "Love You" tracks kind of need the context of either a specific "Love You" expanded edition, or some kind of 76/77-ish archival set.

Back in 2000, there were some legit gripes along these lines. We didn't get these bonus tracks, and instead got 70s/80s "two-fers", and the sort-of-but-not-really-promised "Brother Rarities" set that was supposed to sort of maybe take the place of those bonus tracks never materialized either. It took many years for the archival program to start to get to where it should be. But "Feel Flows" is it, and the indication right now is that the archival program is on the right track and *active*, so for the first time in a long time, I feel comfortable pausing gripes about the lack of archival releases. And we've had less room to gripe to some extent since 2013 with the "Copyright Extension" sets (which have great material even if the first several got sub-optimal presentations) and the "Made in California" tracks, and certainly since 2017 with over a DOZEN discs worth of unreleased material released *prior* to "Feel Flows", with "Sunshine Tomorrow", "Sunshine Tomorrow 2", the similarly-themed '68 and '69 studio sets, the live '68 stuff.

It's MUCH MUCH better now than it was in like 2006 when we were all excited to trudge to a bunch of Hallmark stores looking for that "Songs from Here and Back" CD to hear a hand full of new tracks.

Also, for what it's worth, I suspect "Lazy Lizzie" will probably never be officially released. I don't think the chances are zero, but the chances (whether you agree or not) are significantly slimmer in the 2020s as compared to 2000 or earlier.

Also, those griping elsewhere about why these specific tracks haven't already been released clearly don't understand the history of this band and its internal politics, or how the record/music industry works, or the context for how these tracks originated and how they ended up out there years later, nor the history of how the band has handled (or not handled) unreleased/archival material.

Asking why DISCS worth of unreleased 70s material weren't released years and years ago is kind of like saying in 2004 after Brian's Smile, "I don't understand why he didn't just finish it in 1967. So dumb!"

If you don't understand why it was a difficult proposition due to many factors, including internal band politics, to release multiple discs of 70s outtakes in the 90s or early 2000s (and why it's STILL not a super easy proposition even today), then you don't understand this band or its history.

I’m so tempted to put this in my signature. For those who think this is about board politics, or believe the garbage about people being banned for defending Mike, *this* is more germane to why certain people were banned (Mike’s beard being a specific example).  And to on one hand say “it’s all about the music “ then talk about a boycott…there’s a real fan for you right there. Diehard fan. True blue. All about the music. This is some straight up clown business.

You know the saying about looking a gift horse in the mouth? These people are making glue from it, and chicken salad out of the golden goose.

Still waiting for one single example of someone being banned for their opinion.

Y'know what I was was most uncool with?

A dude -- whom I've made my business to not have ANY business with -- shitting on me and then commenting on my parenting, on what type of father I am.

That's weird stalker shi t.
That's out of bounds, seemingly, everywhere but there.
I was also uncool with how some "friends" there allowed that to pass and let things escalate -- all while still pumping me for information re: the band.

Anonymous men with pretend names arguing with other anonymous men with pretend names screaming about "compression" and who needs "God's help" for how they chose to mix a track from 1962.
(aka "Date night on the penal colony board.")

Man, I’m sorry you’ve had to deal with that, especially with everything you’ve done . Completely disgusting

I think the big thing that has put Howie in the crosshairs was that quote about "be the producer they never had," which is just about the worst optics one could ever create in such a context. That statement has never been clarified or walked back, and it seems to be fueling some of the rage about the Sounds of Summer set.

My sense is that Howie was obliquely addressing that with his comments in his recent interview about the new "Marcella" mix (and I think rab's characterization of what Howie said was spot on). And I'm 95% certain I can see the train of events that led to that mix, and to the "Mess of Help" mix as well. Thrilled and titillated by certain segments of those tracks that were isolated (as revealed on FEEL FLOWS), the new remixes attempted to build from there. Was the experiment and direction taken for those justified? Maybe. Probably. Should they have been substituted into a new major box set in place of an earlier mix or a more conventional remix? Probably not.

So perhaps efforts of that type will be walked back a bit as we get closer to a CATP/Holland set. Particularly if most folks can simply sidestep the need to air their grievances with such vehemence. Too much derision often has the opposite effect in those being criticized, and folks start to dig in their heels. Given the lingering sentiment over at the Nearest Faraway Place, however, I don't think a Zoom session is going to happen. Which may be just as well: there's enough ugliness in the world already...

I do think it's important for Howie, Alan and Mark to talk more pointedly about the role of Carl Wilson in the 1969-73 period as the "executive producer" of the LPs that were released during that time. The band clearly acknowledged that, particularly in the CATP/Holland time frame, and those productions clearly have Carl's stamp on them. Despite all the rare stuff flooding onto YouTube, what strikes me as being (arguably) the most revelatory are some of the isolations of instrumental tracks from CATP and Holland, including one for "Marcella." It's a bit crude and on the lo-fi side, but hearing the backing track on its own makes it clear (IMNSHO) that it's the only way to build a truly viable remix of the track as a whole.

Play it loud (and I do mean LOUD...) and it should be clear just how much Carl was on it, working hard at synthesizing the band's 60s archetypes with the then-current rock instrumentation that had exploded into place in the early 70s. As transcendent as Brian's best work is, Carl successfully brought the band into a changed world in a way that Brian couldn't (or wouldn't) address. He deserves a great deal of credit for doing so--and given that he's no longer with us, he really needs a champion. Alan and Mark should consider focusing on that as a way to ensure that future "inside the tracks" efforts work as well as the "Sail On Sailor" instrumental that appeared in 2000 on HAWTHORNE--a track I love so much that these days I play it more often than the full song. If they can do that with the CATP/Holland box set, it should go a long way toward "calming the hordes." I am optimistic that they will do just that...

Don, it's not the worst optics at all.
This is a comp that no one is making anyone buy, nor listen to.
(Although judging by the Billboard 200 placing -- A LOT of people have.)

When talking to Linett I was specifically addressing the '78 - '80 era when the mix never matched the material. I believe "Baby Blue" sounds gorgeous.

And for some to take away ONLY that from my SEVERAL HOURS-worth of interviews and to use it as an excuse for character assassinations against the people that conceive and provide all this content (TSS; MIC; Sunshine 1 & 2; Live Sunshine; Wake; Hear Music; Live '68; Feel Flows, et al. . . ) proves what a TREMENDOUS portion of the business thinks about "die-hard" fans. It underscores that it's really only a few levels above some rabid JFK assassination "chat group."

Dig the mixes or not.
The worst optics are that these "serious" fans look ugly and crazy.

Howie, thanks for your clarification. That goes a long, long way--in my mind, at least--toward putting that into context and permitting it to be set aside. I hope that your explanation will become better transmitted in this often-crazy environment so that it might help put a stop to what's been happening. I hope it will...

I feel your hurt and anger at what has been transpiring, and I'm not here to fan those flames, really. I was not justifying the responses you've had to endure in any way, shape or form; I was merely trying to locate their specific source.

I am incredibly happy that Sounds of Summer is doing well, and whatever reservations about a couple of remixes I have say as much about me as anything else. I don't believe I've taken issue with anyone's character; if you feel that way, I'm sorry that such is the case, because it was certainly not my intent.

Thanks for your incredible efforts on behalf of the band and the fans, and thanks again for the clarification.

Want to clarify one thing. I see someone on the EH forum has mentioned that SS is diametrically opposed to the opinions being shared on EH - and that it is “Howie the Hero vs Howie the villain”. Not berating the poster or calling them out (as I can see why some would view this situation this way). But I’d like to clear this up a little bit:

I think most here on SS who have commented on the set have also shared some misgivings about some of the mixes (including myself). I think many here (including myself) had questions/comments regarding Howie’s initial podcast interview (as some of us didn’t agree with everything Howie said).

So it’s not that we are diametrically opposed to the opinions being shared, it is that we aren't picking every last sentence of Howie’s interviews apart. We have concerns about some of the mixes on the SoS set but we also seem to be realistic about it (no boycotts or refusal to listen to sets, etc). We commented on his initial interview but had rational dialog about it and learned a bit about Howie’s perspective along the way.

I think there is a diametrical difference between the forums, but it’s nothing to do with opinion: it is how we express those opinions and observations. And at the core of that is the people expressing those opinions. And some people on EH have been cordial about their opinions. But it is clear that some have been nothing but overtly rude to Howie and the team about this set (and the FF set). And reason being: a lot of the people who were booted off of this forum for breaking rules all congregated there. So of course the mindset that got a lot of those people banned here is manifesting there - and this has become very apparent in the past few weeks.

Edit: and I want to add that people have lied about the bans that took place here (claiming that people were banned for their opinions), but as Billy said, never has anyone linked to or shared any evidence to back up their claims. People that were banned from here broke forum rules. Also want to add that not every person banned from here has acted rudely there in this situation. And not every person who has acted rudely there in this situation was banned from here.

Yup, and it’s just a certain segment of those who are  “bottom feeders “ (not my term) which is why I was quite clear that the issue I have has nothing to do with the opinions on the set and more to do with the attacks on Howie, which I have a huge issue with. But hey, consider the source. I don’t take heed in posts by the angry drunk grandpa, for instance; probably can’t even read the screen anymore and is one intervention away from getting the internet taken away. Hopefully the wrong people don’t take those jaundiced ramblings seriously, as I really would like to see future sets.

I feel for those who are going through something internally/mentally. It’s cliche, but I hope that one day we can all just enjoy this amazing music and not get caught up in the drama of it all (I’m 100% guilty of this). I think one day, when all the band has sadly passed, we’ll look back and realize how petty all this was/is.

I completely agree! Let's be good humans to one another and enjoy the music.

Why wait until the band has passed?

I mean I think we can all see how petty the drama is now, but I think it will really sink in in the distant future.

Currently, people are still being lied about, people are still being berated for their hard work. I think in the distant future when the dust settles from the politics of the actual band, no one will feel the need to pick sides (or to needlessly pick apart interviews). We'll probably laugh about some of Brian and Mike's antics, heck I may even put on Mike's Unleash The Love just to hear what he was working on in 2017 (and possibly enjoy it). I really enjoy their music, and will continue to do so. But it's hard to extricate oneself from the baggage that comes along with the music (to pretend that the baggage doesn't exist).

For now, a lot of us are passionately entrenched in our beliefs that are tied together with the current politics of the band. But I think in the future there will be a legitimate/genuine ability to just purely enjoy the music. That's just the reality of it.

I always try to remain hopeful, but the idea that fans would be *less* argumentative about this stuff once some or all of the members are gone is not something I can maintain a ton of hope for.

We're in a period of fandom where we've had approximately TWENTY discs worth of unreleased material issued in the last five years (Sunshine Tomorrow, Sunshine 2, Live Sunshine, the '68 and '69 sets, the live '68 set, and Feel Flows), and there's FINALLY a team in place working on these releases that not only *gets it*, and knows this band extremely well, but is also in a position to actually get stuff out the door and into our hands, and some (hopefully small) subset of fan is stuck on the semantics of (read: actually just not understanding) an interview done to promote a reissue of a hits compilation, and when told they "don't get it", well, we all know some people hate nothing more than having the news broken to them that they "don't get it", and now that small group of fans is now on several weeks of railing against, I guess, everything to do with what is being released.

And now, they're railing against what *hasn't* been released, with this truly bizarre reaction to a bunch of unreleased stuff re-re-recirculating. "Haha! Take that Brother Records and Capitol Records people from 22 years ago!"

In modern parlance, tell me you don't know anything about this band or the music industry without saying you don't understand this band or the record industry.

And no, "well, we're not as bad as the Hoffman board!" is not a strong argument folks. I say that as someone that still finds plenty of interesting people and discussion on the Hoffman board *outside* of the audiophile discussions. The exclusively-audiophile segment of that place lost me years ago, stuck in an endless circle jerk of collecting 29 different "Wally Traugott pressings" of an album to compare them and analyzing waveforms of masterings they've never actually heard, while scoffing at the idea of hearing new, unreleased music.

"Let things escalate"? "Out of bounds"? Weren't you the one who brought your wife and kids into this out of nowhere -- just to belittle the fans who were, with good reason, complaining about the quality of the product that you're trying to sell us? (https://endlessharmony.boards.net/thread/1978/good-vibrations-2021-stereo-soundsofsummer?page=10&scrollTo=54316)

Why did you decide to respond to a hot button subject in this manner? Because some other kids on the internet were making fun of you for having weird opinions? Welcome to 2022.


"Am I so out of touch?... No, it's the fans who are wrong." (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYAuR5bkIlQ)


Now you're making your own character assassinations. Deranged conspiracy theorists are now comparable to record-buying geeks on the web discussing:
A) your inflammatory remarks about their favorite band and
B) poor quality control being afforded to their favorite band's only active preservation projects

Seriously, Howie, you're an amusing guy, but one of these days you need to learn to look in the mirror and check your ego at the door.

You're a Beatles guy, right, Howie? Then allow me to summarize the situation in terms that you can understand.

Imagine being hired by Apple to do PR.
Imagine telling Giles Martin that he needs to "go further out with his mixes" and "be the producer the Beatles never had."
Imagine saying that Help! had "shitty mixing and mastering" after you just oversaw a Beatles release that had the shittiest mixing and mastering ever heard from a major band.
Imagine saying that you're going to rewrite the history of the Beatles so that the group can finally be ranked side-by-side with Led Zeppelin and Jefferson Airplane.
Imagine saying all these things in an interview, then going on a Beatles forum to pour fuel on the fire, telling them that they care way too much about music, and then painting yourself as the victim.

Maybe this will give you a better idea of how you're now perceived by most Beach Boys fans. Enjoy that reputation. You've earned it!

Leave for EH!

The fact that you're equating the Beatles and Beach Boys and their current situations in order to make this comparison kind of indicates you don't know enough about either.

You are aware that Giles Martin in this awkward analogy is the guy doing a sh*t TON of remixing, right?

130 posts to your name over six years, and almost ALL of them are you arguing with people, or being argumentative or complaining.

Dang. Not gonna lie, I didn't see those posts from Howie until now :o thanks for linking that terrei. Had I seen that post before I don't think I would've stood up for him.

Howie says he was "Going out to play with my kids then dinner with my wife."

Man, I thought I'd seen it all, but that quote right there is such a low blow. To say you're gonna go play with your kids and then have dinner with your wife....wow. Hey mods, you may want to delete this post and terrei's post with the link to that quote - I'd just hate for people to start emulating such a harsh, disrespectful statements.
______

Man keep it up guys :lol - ^this just goes to show how utterly moronic these arguments against Howie are. The man basically says he's going to take a break from the internet and go do something with his family and he's lambasted for that :lol

Hey Howie, as you know, the sales/streaming statistics will show you how the fans feel about you and the set - not a vocal minority on an off-the-rails Beach Boys messageboard. And I think those sales are doing quite all right and will continue to do so.

Not too shabby. Though I doubt anyone will beat my record of 5700 posts (and counting) that are nearly all useless, argumentative, or complaining ;D

So much wrong with this post and the next few…definitely deserved a detailed drubbing with edit button in hand.

1). Howie basically said he’d rather be spending time with his family than dealing with that sh*t. If you can find something wrong with that, you my friend are an asshole.

2) linking an EH thread here?! 😒

3) I was literally just about to say that. Ya know, if this was the kind of board we’re accused of being, wouldn’t we have issued a ban? But haven’t…hmm…could it be? Nah.

4. Bingo.

The difference between legit valid criticism (which there has been and rightfully so) and the personal attacks from the likes of the cirrhosis king, tomtomboy, and the rest should be clear to anyone with the IQ above spoiled milk. That’s where I have a huge issue.

In all seriousness, I never like to get into post counts. Nobody matters anymore than anybody else. The point is less how many posts, and more what the posts show. If someone posts thousands of times, there will no doubt be plenty of complaining, inevitably being roped into some debates/arguments, and correcting people, and all of that. But it will also show posts about what they love, about things they like.

If someone is a member for years, and only surfaces on rare occasions to argue, well, that speaks for itself.

Even some of the long-gone folks that I'd debate on this board would also post about things they liked, would get into deep dives on hardcore fan stuff, etc. At least then I knew, however much we disagreed, they came from a place of sharing the friggin' interest that is the topic of the board.

How dare you quote that horribly foul mouthed post. Gasp! Manning just showed up at my house with the red bars of soap Ralphie’s mom used in A Christmas Story. Oh fudge!

Not only did you miss the point, but you're making the same argument I was making against Howie's views on music and how he compares other bands to the Beach Boys. You agree with me and you don't even realize it. It's utterly tragic.


Oh hey there, Guy Who Has Written 9643 Posts on a Beach Boys Forum in Which He Is Also Almost Always Arguing with People or Being Argumentative or Complaining for Over 20 Years. How's life?

Edited my post, that was unbecoming.

"terrei" -

Turn the computer off.
Go outside.
Look up. Breathe.

Forgive whomever you need to forgive to get your sh it straight. It's not straight.

I don't think this is who you want to be. If it IS -- I'm telling you, it's SOUR. It's a failing.
You can do better -- but even if you CAN'T, you should still try.

(https://external-preview.redd.it/BV29dRZRNl8WyQMhee9JsFogybS9IpHN2xIN8sq7Ci8.gif?format=mp4&s=466803fa09593ea62dca328e7fc2a1b79ae396fe)

I've been posting about the Beach Boys since 1996 on Usenet. Many arguments and complaints. But also many effusively happy, celebratory moments as well. Having been around the Beach Boys 'net all those years, I've seen every variation on the classic "how's life?" mic-drop attempt.

We all know what comes next.

I truly hope you get around to finding something you like and enjoy that you can also discuss. Maybe even The Beach Boys.

Very true.


:lol

This whole situation reminds me of the quote from that movie: "In our world, you were either a bully, a toady, or one of the nameless rabble of victims."

I guess that's the difference between me and Howie. Howie likes to randomly announce irrelevant details about his personal life to strangers on the internet. I don't. I think it'd be rather pathetic if I entered an online debate concerning bad record production just to say "please stop caring so much about music, I need to go play with my children." Call me old-fashioned.

*sigh* this is why we can’t have nice things…

"terrei" -

Stay down.

You're not going to out-wit me, you're not going to out-"mean" me.
You're flailing.

Stay down.

You do realize that the actual real comments made by others that you're incorrectly paraphrasing and/or quoting are all available for everybody to read, right?

We've seen a few folks over the years go down this path here. I don't know what to call it at a certain point but trolling.

Yes, I'm aware. I linked to some of them directly. (One of the moderators here, Billy C, seemed to take issue with me for doing so.) I don't really have anything more to add, except that I respect Howie for the good work he's done in getting these preservation projects off the ground. There's just a lot about how he's conducted himself online and in interviews that's embarrassing for younger Beach Boys fans.

I think this is the most frightening part: some of you can't even see how deranged your grievances are regarding Howie's interview...even when you're looking right at the posts/threads themselves. I mean you literally linked to a quote where Howie says the akin to "I'm gonna step away and get some fresh air" and allude to the idea that such a statement escalated the conflict and was "out of bounds". Do you realize how utterly insane that is?

Seriously step back and look at the thread....well actually I think three threads in total were flaying Howie alive - most notably the one where someone took the time to do a minute-by-minute breakdown of Howie's podcast interview (with bonus posts he made on the EH forum). The embarrassing thing is not how Howie (re)acted - the embarrassment lies solely with the "fans" who rained fire and brimstone down on a guy who was open and honest about his perspective of the band. As AGD just said (edit: don't want to misquote you AGD, I'm paraphrasing what you wrote), you all took some sentences, ripped them to shreds, and completely ignored what Howie was saying overall...3 threads and 10+ pages of bashing an insider. Unreal.

And I think the most astounding part is how many people from that forum piled on. Very few even defended the guy, and some who did were still flippant towards Howie. So he said some released mixes sucked - if we're all honest not everything this band released was pure freakin gold. Hell, Brian didn't even mix the early stereo tracks, Chuck Britz did (I believe), and not to knock Britz, but some of the mixes (where the bg vocals are panned far left, and other elements far right) are not the greatest representation of The Beach Boys in stereo. I think that was Howie's point.

I concede that, for whatever reason, older fans cannot hear what the younger fans hear in these new remasters. The same weirdness happened 10 years ago with the laughable autotune on TWGMTR and MiC. And then again 5 years ago when Steve Desper mistakenly shared what he thought was a vintage recording of Carl singing Sail On Sailor.*

If you can't hear the issue, then you won't understand why Howie got dogpiled after he admitted to pushing Mark "to go further out" and told fans to "stop bugging about records."
If you can hear the issue, then you will understand why Howie got dogpiled after he admitted to pushing Mark "to go further out" and told fans to "stop bugging about records."

I'm sure it has something to do with the fact that younger fans are more likely to have expertise in these matters. I've been working with DAWs alone and with friends for as long as I can remember. I know what it sounds like when someone tinkers too much, or not enough, and creates a mess of digital artifacts. Those artifacts aren't a big deal in modern pop music anymore. But they are a big deal if your goal is to preserve the magic of a legendary '60s rock band.

I also know, based on reading Smiley for over a decade, that there's a lot of inanities involved within BRI and the record business in general. And that some of the most active Smiley posters can recite dozens of Mike Love interviews verbatim, and yet understand very little about the craft of music composition and production. *shrug*

* (Did we ever settle on a consensus, or are there still some hold-outs who believe that it truly was Carl singing? Haha.)

The issue isn't even that people disagree with the mixes! I even said above that there are issues that I hear in the new mixes. The problem is that people are so completely disrespectful anymore to those who work for a living on these tracks. If people have issues with the new mixes they can plainly and courteously talk about them with Howie...he was literally a member of the EH forum and was likely very willing to discuss the mixes. But before he even had the chance people "dogpiled" on him for the interview. I've never seen an administrator of a forum act so petulant toward an insider. And now you're berating Howie because he brought up his wife and kids in a post? Come on. The dogpile is the issue.

If nobody likes the new remixes they can choose from a plethora of available original mixes on streaming, digital download, or physical media. This is why the whole "preserve the magic of a legendary '60s rock band" is a non-issue. As in, some people hear that magic in the '97 stereo Pet Sounds. Others hear that magic in the original mono (or even the CATP mono vinyl PS). I find this magic in some of the new stereo remixes. If people hear that magic in the original stereo mixes by Chuck Britz, that's awesome! No one is stopping anyone from accessing those mixes officially.

How many people are going to casually buy the new set from Wal-Mart to play at a BBQ this summer, and then turn it off because of some compression on some songs or digital artifacts on Surfin Safari? Probably absolutely none. But how many kids are going to first hear the magic of the band from this set? Probably a lot. And there is nothing in the new mixes that detracts one from hearing Brian's, Carl's, Mike's, Dennis', Dave's, Blondie's, Ricky's, Bruce's, Al's, etc magic on those songs. Are there issues? yes. Is it worth calling for people to be fired? Is it worth berating one's parenting skills? Is it worth tearing apart seemingly every sentence of a casual podcast interview? Not at all.

Btw, you know how many people here (including myself) have read books upon books about sound engineering, about Brian's production, songwriting etc? I have boxes of books about the stuff. I've read Lambert's book front to back. The Beach Boys music inspired me so much to become a musician over a decade ago and I am currently blessed to be able to record/mix music as part of my job. And yeah, I can also recite some of Mike Love's crass interviews regarding Brian. Don't assume so much about people around here. Whether you were referring to me or others, it doesn't matter: a lot of people here have this stuff in common. Nobody joined this forum to waste their time bitching about Mike Love. We are all here because we love music. And sadly human nature ends up interfering with that love.

Great post! I completely agree.

The continuing attempts to personally attack and smear Howie and Mark over this release shows the true character of the places (or place) where it's coming from. No matter how much someone dislikes these mixes, to say publicly that a three-time Grammy winning engineer should be fired over mixes "fans" don't like is absolutely one of the most disgusting things I've read in this whole scene. And considering where this kind of pure hatred (or whatever it is) is coming from, and the history of similar comments, I think it says most of what people would need to know about those circles of "fans".

And I agree with Howie and the others who mentioned it, the lack of anyone speaking up in their defense is pretty damn sad. Barely anyone there seems to speak up in their defense. But maybe in some places like that either people are afraid to speak up or not allowed to speak up like that.

Howie and Mark are the heroes here, the people who know understand that.

If people don't like the mixes and it upsets them enough to drive them to personally attack people, join the boycott crew over there.

The people I know who have been posting in this thread alone have decades of experience recording, writing, producing, and doing music in general as a profession. Many of the active posters on Smiley in general share similar backgrounds and know what they're talking about having been involved in recording, playing, writing, etc music as well. I think you may mean the other place.

Yup. I mean, I’ve talked about having been recording my own band for 21 years…but I have longer experience working with others AND this is what I majored in in college as well! Hell, right now this and disability checks are what’s putting (some) food on the table!

Assumptions are a hell of a thing

But he must unleash the wrath of the Almighty Maltshop Memories Nerds on us all!

Never mind the fact that some of them keep putting “engineers” in quotes.  That’s the type of sh*t I’m talking about.  I’d like to see their resume and have it compared to Mark’s. I wonder who has more Grammys. I wonder how good of a job they’re do working with 50 + year old tapes, some recently discovered and hadn’t been taken care of the same way the stuff in the “vaults” have.  

Oh and another thing…some (not all, not most…SOME)of the complaints about the final sound actually stem from issues in the (re)mastering process, NOT the mixing! Saying that because if someone is going to be highly insulting towards someone who has been doing this for many years and start acting like they know more, they might want to actually brush up on what’s actually what.

I think you just titled the song I’m working on …thanks 😆

Billy doing doo-wop? ;D

https://twitter.com/emilybrooksnews/status/1476714669293375490?s=21&t=dXN-MiaGjNvZrdHUlP-ZkA

Remember when this Twitter thread went viral?  Look at some of the responses. There is STILL a problem with how the BB are perceived. I know we fans think “who cares? Those snooty snobs are the ones missing out.” And maybe that’s true to an extent.

But this band DESERVES to be mentioned in the same breath as the Beatles.  In order to have a chance of that happening while it still matters, you can’t really emphasize the Mike Love-styled way they’ve presented themselves in the last several decades (even if fans are now OK with it). I’m sorry fans’ feathers got ruffled with how Howie explained it, but he was speaking truth. And it is this fresh mindset that resulted in Feel Flows.  I’d rather have that the way it is presented than not have it all. To think that some don’t want that kind of stuff because of biases or upset feelings kinda makes me sad.

All kidding aside, I actually have previously!

Completely agree

I agree too. It is the truth that since the aftermath of Kokomo, the band name and image changed and became almost a multiple personality situation. And the mass media, marketers, and promoters often want to compartmentalize and homogenize a product in order to sell that product. After Kokomo you had the Beach Boys playing the hits on stage with dancers like a revue versus the image of the band who just saw Pet Sounds reissued on CD and which appealed to a different set of fans with different tastes. The GV box set with the Smile material and deeper cuts further split the image. After Mike got the license and Brian toured on his own, the divide was complete.

As much as it could have turned into one, the C50 tour could easily have become a sappy "Malt Shop Memories" affair, but miraculously it did not, and the music and the guys on stage together transcended all else. That WAS the same group who did Surfin Safari, Wouldn't It Be Nice, Sail On Sailor, and Kokomo on the same stage together for a brief moment in time. Everyone got what they wanted, in terms of the fans the way it seemed. No shmaltz, no cheese, no Malt Shop Memories nostalgia in 2012. And there was even new Beach Boys music to dig.

I'll still say that one of the issues for the brand, and I say that carefully, was how people outside the fan bubble we're in didn't know which Beach Boys they were getting, and a lot of great music had been buried and lost for years as a result.

The Feel Flows set was definitely an attempt to bring attention to that kind of music which had been lost through the years, and try to overcome the multiple personality issue that has been on the band's branding for decades.

I agree, if some don't want that kind of stuff due to biases or upset feelings (or perhaps jealousy), it's pretty sad.

And to be sure, the BB aren’t the only legacy act to have this duality: Paul McCartney has this to a certain degree (in concert, he is the Proxy Beatles delivering the crowd pleasing hits but off-stage he is the consummate artistic risk taker with his classical works, his work with Youth, and his studio albums). But certainly, the BB became the poster boys for this strange duality.

Speaking of Paul, the online comments I’ve seen about his recent show have been around the same level of Brian’s . This is kind of uncharted territory as this is the first generation of musicians to be active and still relevant at their age. I remember The Beach Boys and McCartney seeming old and washed up in the 80s… and they were way younger than generation who came after that are still active today. Look at someone like Metallica… those are guys around 60. Debuted on the 80s and still kicking multiple varieties of ass onstage. Chuck Berry stayed on til the end, but his recording career was comparatively brief. How many bands started adding auxiliary members as they got older, which wasn’t really a thing for following generations. Compare Dave Grohl in his mid 50s to pretty much anybody who debuted in the 70s at the same age. There might be a time where people Paul and Brian’s current age won’t age as “bad” onstage.

Yeah, Paul’s voice hasn’t been good for a number of years, but his bass, guitar, drums, and piano chops are still as good as ever. And people go to see him now for the spectacle, those songs, and to be in the same room as a legend.  Paul is probably the best example of what you’re describing. It’s like people are aging differently from generation to generation.

FWIW, several posts at the Nearest Faraway Place from AGD show some remorse and regret for how things went down in the SoS thread. I post links rather than quote or paraphrase:

https://endlessharmony.boards.net/thread/2058/over-smiley?page=2&scrollTo=56362

(Interesting that this thread purports to be locked, but is being used to surreptitiously express some perspectives that are seemingly meant to be kept away from full public scrutiny.)

Earlier in that same thread AGD also expresses what's clearly a UK-centric notion of the history of "BB fandom" and its "fall from grace" that seems to be built around the idea that the UK fan contingent is/should be the "lead dog" in a semi-unspoken hierarchy; and when that was somehow challenged, it caused the rifts that are now so prevalent...and that have erupted recently around aspects of the Sounds of Summer release.

No question that the material at Bellagio 10452 is a superb collection of facts/info, but--that said--the behaviors taken that caused the schism and the entirely justifiable need to expel those who ran the gauntlet in an effort to impose a highly revisionist interpretation of the band's history has sadly cast a not inconsiderable pall over that magnificent achievement. In fairness it should be noted that AGD has, at a number of points in the recent upheaval concerning SoS, attempted to be a moderating influence...but with little success. A good bit of that stems from the fact that when you create a monster, it becomes very difficult to control it--ask Dr. Frankenstein about that...

I find GF's historical overview of the BBs oscillating reception in the world and the double-edged sword of their still-evolving legacy to be a nicely nuanced perspective, even as it tends to underplay the essential ongoing tension in the band between Brian and Mike which still remains the tricky fulcrum that Azoff etal have to work around as they try to give the band's long-term legacy the softest-possible landing on an airstrip that is still not 100% smooth. Given all that, it's clear that Howie has been a superb ambassador for the band--a fact that AGD acknowledges as he laments the behavior that drove him away from the Nearest Faraway Place--and the success of SoS in the marketplace is a signpost that those in charge of charting the current strategy for cementing the band's legacy are by and large doing an excellent job. I hope that things will rapidly calm down and get aside so that the next phase of this most worthy effort--the CATP/Holland set--can be the set that everyone wants it to be: a reflection and revelation of the band's most intense period of all-inclusive creativity. That seems like the key missing piece to get put into place, and we should clear the deck so that the folks working on pulling that together can put all of their skill and attention into making that happen.

The thing that is insulting about that thread is you had an admin responding to the OP saying “guys, we chased him off” with basically “good! He deserved it!”.  The rancor never should have gotten to that level and, by example, it was cheered on by aforementioned admin. You don’t like the mixes, fine.  But the dog piling got uncomfortably close to a cancellation attempt and that’s disturbing.

Exactly

Several things can be true at the same time: you can be critical of how the audio mixes have been handled on recent Beach Boys projects without simultaneously dragging Howie and his team over the coals about it.  But part of the silliness of all this is we have two Beach Boys forums at odds with each other which most likely perpetuates a lot of this dysfunction. 

Pardon me for butting in again, but part of the "silliness" was the legitimate need to expel folks who then created their own forum, which perpetuates and reinforces the dysfunction. It should be instructive to us that they began all that on their own, and observations here (coupled with an escalating sense of disbelief...) followed. Check the timeline, and this will be confirmed. Many of us have discussed in various tonalities--from sympathy to black humor to derision to outright contempt--the excesses that occur there, despite many intelligent and highly knowledgeable posters: this most recent manifestation is really just more of the same, but at such a level of extremity that even their Dear Leader has come to see the incident as being tragically catastrophic. All of us reap what we sow...

The key going forward for those who advocate for the band as being right at the top of the list for most seminai, influential, historically significant entities in the history of popular music is to be thrilled that a record company would invest in another 80-track compilation and follow up with a(nother) legacy box focused on a period where the band had no hits. Billy's right: we've won the war--but some people just like fighting so much that they can't bring themselves to stop.

I'll admit that I have never been that heavily invested in this squabble so I will have to take your word for it.  And of course there have been posters who have been out of line before.  However I think there is a lot to unpack here.  All I can say is that I've been posting regularly to both forums and have had no major issue with either one.  And there have been plenty of ridiculous comments (as well as good comments) coming from both forums on a variety of topics.  It wouldn't surprise me if folks are taking things a bit too personally as usual. 


I think you can be happy to see that the band is still getting attention and still having products released all this time later, but that doesn't mean that any of us are required to automatically be satisfied with the products coming out.  People are allowed to offer criticisms (preferably constructively) if they are unhappy with the product (such as noting the awkwardness in audio of some of the new mixes).  That doesn't definitively mean they are ungrateful.  I agree that people are going a little overboard with some of the criticisms with the sound quality but it isn't completely an illegitimate complaint.  However I will completely agree that harrassing Howie and the team no matter how you feel about these products is completely wrong-headed and ridiculous.

agreed on all points here

Honestly? Because nobody on either end of the factions wants to make that first move.

I really don't think this is the case. It's more of a time issue. If there was a mood/atmosphere of forgive/forget in any Beach Boys fan-faction I would agree with you. But look at the hate that was pummeled onto Howie - that kind of vitriol is still raging in fans. And the vitriol that "counters" that vitriol is still raging in fans. A first move can't be made if people are still getting enraged by a podcast interview, if fans are still lying about other fans, and if people are trying to fight all of this insolence with more insolence (guilty as charged).

But I think in 30 years when LoCash's song hasn't destroyed the brand*, when 10 stereo mixes that Mark and Alan worked on haven't destroyed the reputation of the band, and when people begin to realize how futile all the feuds were, then every old fan will kinda wish that all those arguments and feuds never happened.

I mean, I currently realize how petty all of this stuff is, but yet I will defend someone if they are being lied about. I will defend someone if someone is calling for them to lose their job over a stereo mix. You can't ignore that type of lunacy.

*Also want to edit my point about the LoCash song: while I personally don't think it will destroy the reputation of the band, I find it completely absurd that The Beach Boys would align themselves with a song that glorifies binge drinking when most of the members of the band have dealt with substance abuse (and one has died from it). I find it completely crass and repulsive, but not surprising given what some people in the band will do to get even 20 seconds in the spotlight.