"Brian Wilson talks with and about spring"

[Shane]

I was reading about this tape on AGD's Gigs site, supposedly a tape of Brian and Diane talking about Spring from 1971.  I was wondering if this is available anywhere.  Was it a promotional item originally given to DJ's? 

On a separate but related note, I seem to remember a moment on the SOT's (I think its the "America, I Know You" track) where Brian is in the booth, and someone accidentally rolls the wrong tape.   A snippet of Brian on tape is heard, talking about the Honeys, as if it were an interview, possibly for the then-new Honeys single of 1969.... does this complete tape still exist?

[MBE]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7qCxo-3K0s

Here is a little bit of it. While it's obviously unrehearsed, I think Brian's sense of humor and general normalicy on the tape were not to be found in later years. For someone who hasn't heard him speak much when he was in his 20's it's pretty much a revalation.

[Shane]

Fascinating!  Thanks for the link!

[Andrew G. Doe]

I was reading about this tape on AGD's Gigs site, supposedly a tape of Brian and Diane talking about Spring from 1971.  I was wondering if this is available anywhere.  Was it a promotional item originally given to DJ's? 

The tape was distributed to DJs as a promo for the first Spring 45, and I recall a US rock mag (Creem ?) did a limited reissue of it a few years later.

[Aegir]

Brian sounds a little slowed down in that Youtube clip. Also, he still sounds crazy.

[MBE]

Brian sounds a little slowed down in that Youtube clip. Also, he still sounds crazy.

Well I have the whole tape at correct speed and he doesn't sound crazy to me at all.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Shane, I don't want to derail your thread, and I hope you don't mind if I ask an unrelated question about this time period.

It was right around this time when Brian was starting to go into his most serious decline. And I never understood specifically why. The only explanations given for his behavior around this time centered around Brian taking drugs "to numb his emotional pain".

On the surface, Brian was a multi-millionaire living in a mansion with an adoring wife and two beautiful young children. The group just signed a new deal for more millions; he worked when he wanted to, did some outside work (Spring, Jan Berry,  others?), apparently reached some kind of peace with his father (they wrote "Breakaway" together), and appeared to have a life that most would desire.

Ah, but what was under the surface? Were the voices in his head increasing? Did the declining record sales depress him? Was he really devasted by Murry's selling his songs or could he care less? I don't remember reading anything about him wanting to go solo or doing something apart from the Beach Boys. Other than his lust for his sister-in-law, was his marriage solid? Do I remember Peter Reum writing something about a series of nervous breakdowns?

So what was contributing to his emotional pain, that would cause him to leave the love and security of his home, wife and children to go over to Danny Hutton's house to fry his brain? This is a very frustrating period for me to figure out. Brian would appear to be a man that had it all. Anyone have any thoughts?

[the captain]

I don't think mental illness is something that needs a rational explanation to work its magic. While obvious factors can contribute to it, they're not necessary. The source of his problems might just be that he was experiencing sickness (mentally speaking).

[mikeyj]

I don't think mental illness is something that needs a rational explanation to work its magic. While obvious factors can contribute to it, they're not necessary. The source of his problems might just be that he was experiencing sickness (mentally speaking).

I think that's spot on Luther. It's hard to understand a mental illness if you have never known someone has suffered from it, some things just don't really make sense. But even though Sheriff that you said "Brian would appear to be a man that had it all" you have to remember how much work he had done in the 60's and how much of a toll that might have taken on him mentally. I'm sure he was mentally fatigued and couldn't even sit down and appreciate everything he had done and everything he had earnt. It's just a fact of life that money does not equal happiness (you can disagree with me if you want but I don't think I'll ever change my opinion on that) and neither does fame.

[Sheriff John Stone]

It's just a fact of life that money does not equal happiness (you can disagree with me if you want but I don't think I'll ever change my opinion on that) and neither does fame.

No argument here. Money and fame didn't equal happiness in the Beach Boy(s') story.

The mental illness factor was also a complicated issue, due to the fact that it took awhile to realize and accept it. I recall reading and hearing Marilyn saying that Brian would show signs of being ill, then get over it and "appear" to be OK. And that's not taking a shot at Marilyn either.

[the captain]

The mental illness factor was also a complicated issue, due to the fact that it took awhile to realize and accept it. I recall reading and hearing Marilyn saying that Brian would show signs of being ill, then get over it and "appear" to be OK.

That's exactly how it can be--and with no obvious, rational outward causes that someone could say, 'oh, this is stressing him out, this is making her depressed," etc. It just doesn't work that way. That's why I believe there probably just isn't much to look for in those years, something that forced him over the edge (and into bed). I don't think it's necessary to look for causes of the mental illness that led to strange behavior, antisocial behavior, drug dependency, etc.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I don't think it's necessary to look for causes of the mental illness that led to strange behavior, antisocial behavior, drug dependency, etc.

And yet I can't help but wonder.....it's a chicken before the egg thing.....but.....

Did the drug use lead to the mental illness or vice versa. For example, did the LSD experimentation lead to the first nervous breakdown in 1964? Did the pot/hash/pills lead to the demise of SMiLE in 1967? Did the cocaine lead to what re-emerged 1976? And on and on?

I'm getting way off-topic here. Another thread. But, back to the original thread, when Brian first started working with Spring, it appeared - appeared - that he was in a good place. Working with the Beach Boys, working with his wife, living the life of ease, beautiful children. I'm repeating myself. Sorry.

[Wilsonista]

I don't think it's necessary to look for causes of the mental illness that led to strange behavior, antisocial behavior, drug dependency, etc.

And yet I can't help but wonder.....it's a chicken before the egg thing.....but.....

Did the drug use lead to the mental illness or vice versa. For example, did the LSD experimentation lead to the first nervous breakdown in 1964? Did the pot/hash/pills lead to the demise of SMiLE in 1967? Did the cocaine lead to what re-emerged 1976? And on and on?

No.

There had to be a reason why he was medicating himself. I'm going to agree with people like Reum and Carlin and say that Brian's mental illness would have emerged without the drugs. He was medicating himself plain and simple. The only thing the drugs did was accelerate the onset of his illness.  Remember Brian's great-uncle who watched the Wright brithers essentially beat him to the punch at inventing the airplane and then suffered a life of depression after being injured in WWI. Also remember Murry's bout of depression after being fired by Brian and Mike (and I'm sure Murry wasn't on psychadelics).

[Andrew G. Doe]

Remember Brian's great-uncle who watched the Wright brithers essentially beat him to the punch at inventing the airplane

Excuse me ? The Wright Brothers made their first flight in December 1903. Johnny Wilson started building his steam-powered plane in summer 1913, according to Tim White. My math isn't the greatest, but I make that some ten years later.

[MBE]

Spring seems to be the last gasp of the original Brian in some ways. His music didn't really decline for several years but it seems to be the end of something. Maybe the physical decline that began in Holland and his lack of interest in the Beach Boys 1972 recording sessions makes me think things were starting to really change at that point. As late as 1970 he was making appearances on stage, leading sessions, taking care of his appearance, writing great songs. Except for composing less songs, 1971 seems to have been fairly productive too. He could still go out by himself without causing panic, he didn't make a spectacle of himself in public by how he dressed or acted. He washed. Only in 1974 do the really bad stories start.

My theory on what happened is that it was a combonation of things that had been festering. The Sea Of Tunes sale, the inclusion of Surf's Up on the LP of the same name, gradually getting more into cocaine (Carl once said it didn't even know how much Brian was into it until the So Tough sessions). I also think the trip to Holland was traumatic for him seeing as how much he liked being at home. Ed Roach among others told me Brian seemed very different when he came back. Then finally Murry's death.

Let's face it as I have pointed out before Brian was refusing to tour and putting on weight in 1963. It began very early in truth. The drugs played their role, and I don't think he would have ever gotten as low as he did get without them. Still something would have happened no matter what. It was the genetics, Uncle Johnny proves that. Marilyn and I talked once and she said the decline was very gradual.  The knowledge we have on drug abuse and mental illness is far greater today and I think even the brightest among us would have had trouble understanding what was happening to Brian or what to do to help him.

[Jay]

I think that it's quite possible that Brian had mental "illness" probably since birth. Even though nobody knew it back then. I think that mental illness is hereditary. I seem to remember that there was a Wilson family member by the name of "Buddy" that showed signs of what Brian would later develop as his illness. So, Brian most likely had some kind of mental issues "festering" long before The Beach Boys ever existed, or long before Brian himself realized it.  It took until December of 1964 for his first real breakdown. Let's not forget that by 1964, Brian had done in two or three years what most of us couldn't do in several lifetimes. Let's look at this from a math perspective: f***ed up Wilson genes+ EXTREME stress= breakdown.

[Daniel S.]

Did Brian write Sweet Mountain? Also, is that song a Brian Wilson production or a Steven Desper production?

[MBE]

Brian wrote Sweet Mountain with Sandler. The 1989 see for miles reissue LP says Sandler, Brian and Desper all co-produced.

[Wilsonista]

Let's face it as I have pointed out before Brian was refusing to tour and putting on weight in 1963. It began very early in truth. The drugs played their role, and I don't think he would have ever gotten as low as he did get without them. Still something would have happened no matter what. It was the genetics, Uncle Johnny proves that. Marilyn and I talked once and she said the decline was very gradual.  The knowledge we have on drug abuse and mental illness is far greater today and I think even the brightest among us would have had trouble understanding what was happening to Brian or what to do to help him.

What he (and Jay) said. *



*Without the historical fact f***-up too.

[Bicyclerider]

Reading Carlin's book it was clear to me that Brian wasn't "right" even in his adolescence - several high school acquaintances seemed to have thought he was strange and he made them uncomfortable.  It's very common for mentally ill people to take drugs and then have their mental illness become more manifest, particularly with schizophrenics, and then it becomes a game of which came first, the drugs or the illness - I think in almost every case it's the illness first, which the drugs accelerate the symptoms of . . . I don't think anything specific happened in 1969-1970 to precipitate Brian's withdrawal/decline, other than perhaps the drugs de jour were becoming more dangerous (cocaine) and he was still being forced to work for the Beach Boys, which he had long ago ceased to care about, wanting to produce other artists.

[MBE]

According to Desper's book and Brian telling me himself he and the Beach Boysworked together well in the studio at least through 1970. I think the use of Surf's Up was the thing that made him loose much interest in the group therafter.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I think the use of Surf's Up was the thing that made him loose much interest in the group therafter.

Did Brian ever elaborate why he didn't want "Surf's Up" released? But he sang on it (the 1970-71 recording) didn't he?

[Wilsonista]

According to Desper's book and Brian telling me himself he and the Beach Boysworked together well in the studio at least through 1970. I think the use of Surf's Up was the thing that made him loose much interest in the group therafter.

yet obne can't discount the fact that he was, as early as 1963 bailing out on touring. And he was also doing stuff with the Honeys, Survivors and other outside artists.  I know Bob Hanes has suggested that Brian never really wanted his family in what he considered to be his group and looking  at what he was doing in 63, it's kind of hard to refute that. As to why he started out w/ the BB?  Maybe it was another instance of following Spector's lead. After all Phil had started out as a performer/recording artist before he got going as a producer.

[endofposts]

According to Desper's book and Brian telling me himself he and the Beach Boysworked together well in the studio at least through 1970. I think the use of Surf's Up was the thing that made him loose much interest in the group therafter.

yet obne can't discount the fact that he was, as early as 1963 bailing out on touring. And he was also doing stuff with the Honeys, Survivors and other outside artists.  I know Bob Hanes has suggested that Brian never really wanted his family in what he considered to be his group and looking  at what he was doing in 63, it's kind of hard to refute that. As to why he started out w/ the BB?  Maybe it was another instance of following Spector's lead. After all Phil had started out as a performer/recording artist before he got going as a producer.

I don't buy that.  I know there are people who are personally close to Brian who think that, but I don't agree.  For one thing, most of the talents besides the Beach Boys that he produced were mediocre, at best.  Brian's work with most of those people was also not up to par with his Beach Boys work, even when he had a full corp of musicians, such as some of the Honeys recordings.  There was not one act among them that could match the Beach Boys blend, and I'm sure Brian knew that.  He'd been working with his family doing harmony work since they were kids.  Finally, the Beach Boys had always had some success from the start, later on quite massive success.  For someone as competitive as Brian, that had to count for a lot.  He might have wanted to stretch his wings beyond the Beach Boys and maybe even hoped for some success with those acts, but the Beach Boys were always his main concern.  He also loved to sing, and had talent at that, so I don't see the comparison to Spector as far as wanting to not perform.  Not go on the road, perhaps, but he still did studio work and even appeared on TV with the band until the events of '67.

[Dancing Bear]

Brian never wanted to be a Beach Boy? Where was Melinda when Brian needed her?