Opinions on BWPS

[armona]

(duplicate post)

[juggler]

I do agree with those who prefer the live version.  As such, I listen to the Carnegie Hall recording (broadcast by NPR) more than the official BWPS.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4182988

There's a reason that BWPS has a score of 97 at metacritics (and is the highest-rated non-reissue).  Two words: THE MUSIC.  Let's face it.  The Smile songs are incredible, and the musicianship on BWPS is great.

It'll be interesting to see how the Beach Boys' Smile Sessions will do with on metacritics.  97 will be hard to beat.  Most here (including me) prefer the original tracks and the BBs' vocals, but the Sessions' incompleteness (at least compared with BWPS) will likely earn a few demerits from some critics.

[Les P]

It's been nice to see folks give BWPS some love.  I find myself agreeing with so many of the positive comments about BWPS...  Yes, the live performance (esp. the premiere) was more astonishing than the recording, truly a once-in-a-lifetime experience.  The recording is "brighter/lighter" than the original recordings, which makes sense for an album called "Smile."  Yet it has a very spiritual 2nd movement (esp live).  I enjoy it for a "finished" version, instead of listening to some beautiful tracks and trying to ignore how unfinished they feel ("Look" and "Holidays" never did much for me until BWPS). The 3rd Movement is actually the one I played the most, I guess because it had the most "new" material, as well as "In Blue Hawaii," which is in my Top 5 of the BB/BW canon...(."down in blue Ha-WAAAAAAA-ii"....those few bars are worth the price of admission).

Yes, there are some things I'd nitpick (while others complain about the harpsichord, it's the piano on "SU" that bugs me), and yes, I prefer the BB versions, esp. for the songs they finished (particularly CE and SU).  But ultimately I find it a SATISFYING whole.  And SOOOOOOOO much better than we had any right to hope for.

[pancakerecords]

I do agree with those who prefer the live version.  As such, I listen to the Carnegie Hall recording (broadcast by NPR) more than the official BWPS.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4182988

There's a reason that BWPS has a score of 97 at metacritics (and is the highest-rated non-reissue).  Two words: THE MUSIC.  Let's face it.  The Smile songs are incredible, and the musicianship on BWPS is great.

It'll be interesting to see how the Beach Boys' Smile Sessions will do with on metacritics.  97 will be hard to beat.  Most here (including me) prefer the original tracks and the BBs' vocals, but the Sessions' incompleteness (at least compared with BWPS) will likely earn a few demerits from some critics.

I was lucky enough to be at Carnegie Hall for the two shows they recorded for use in this broadcast, and it remains my most-played version of BWPS.  I also got the studio version on vinyl, and it is definitely a much warmer mix than the CD - if you can find it for a reasonable price, grab it.

[onkster]

Ebbetts? You listening? Ebbetts...?

[Chris Brown]

My feelings on BWPS have changed a fair amount since it came out.  Upon release, I really enjoyed listening to it, and did so quite frequently.  Seeing Brian perform it live at Carnegie Hall was the pinnacle of the experience for me.  I agree with others who have said that the piece truly works best as a live performance.

After awhile though, the novelty wore off.  As great as it was to hear the completed work (the second movement especially), I can't listen to it without comparing it to the original versions/sessions, and aside from the completeness factor, it falls short for me.  This is true of some songs more than others, but for example, listening to the newer version of "Surf's Up," all I'm thinking while listening to it is why am I listening to this when I could be listening to Brian's piano demo?  Same goes for the other tracks that were completed previously.  I enjoy the newly completed tracks a bit more, namely "Song For Children," "Child" and "In Blue Hawaii."  Those are the tracks I keep coming back to - for the rest, I'm much more content with vintage versions, completed or not.

I do think that BWPS is an incredibly important part of the Smile story (as well as Brian's), and don't get me wrong, I'm happy that it exists, for many reasons.  The music is so unique and timeless that it will be celebrated as one of the great treasures of American music.  I suppose I just have a hard time listening to it as it's own entity, rather than a re-recording of things that were already done better the first time and a few new very well-done completed tracks.

[The Heartical Don]

I do agree with those who prefer the live version.  As such, I listen to the Carnegie Hall recording (broadcast by NPR) more than the official BWPS.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4182988

There's a reason that BWPS has a score of 97 at metacritics (and is the highest-rated non-reissue).  Two words: THE MUSIC.  Let's face it.  The Smile songs are incredible, and the musicianship on BWPS is great.

It'll be interesting to see how the Beach Boys' Smile Sessions will do with on metacritics.  97 will be hard to beat.  Most here (including me) prefer the original tracks and the BBs' vocals, but the Sessions' incompleteness (at least compared with BWPS) will likely earn a few demerits from some critics.

How can I burn the Carnegie 2-parter at NPR onto CD?

[Wylson]

I'd never heard that Carnegie Hall version before - amazing! One of my biggest gripes with the BWPS DVD, and loads of other recent live performances, is that there is constant heavy-handed post-production, sometimes dropping in studio vocals. Great to hear the perforamance raw, and perfect.

I think the music and performances of BWPS are fantastic - my problem is with the production and mixing. I think it lacks subtley, everything is up-front and in your face. There are a couple of notable exceptions - as has been mentioned In Blue Hawaii is really well produced (particularly the faded Brian vocal "hawaiiiiii" over the brass, and the whispering wind section); and the You are My Sunshine section. I feel that actually more effects could have been used on Brian's vocals in the studio version (I know, slightly contradicting what I said earlier) - but he sounds great coming through compressor or whatever it is they used on You Are My Sunshine.

Lastly, I think there could have been more opportunity to drop in some surprises, hidden bits and pieces (a sample of two here or there from the original session, a BW falsetto, a bit of Carl or Dennis) just to add a bit of mystery. But that is really an unreasonable complaint.

Overall, still love it.

[Micha]

I think (like most here seem to) that one has to differentiate between BWPS as a completed composition and a recorded album. The composition to me IS the final word on SMiLE. It's SMiLE as history made it. The 66/67 sessions are a first recording attempt that was aborted.

There is many examples of artists that first tried to do a work, then abandoned it and finished it later. One of them is famous German poet Goethes most famous work "Faust" which he started as a young man but completed it close to fourty years later - like Brian did with SMiLE. Like SMiLE, Faust had been published in fragmentary form in the meantime. But not the 1770 fragments are regarded as THE Faust, the 1808 finished version is.

I love the final composition of BWPS, which is THE SMiLE. We will never have another one.

Well, and then there's BWPS the CD. While I liked it at first, I'm not into the sound of the recording anymore at all. I rather enjoy listening to the live version on the Beautiful Dreamer DVD. The individual fragments of the 66/67 recordings are still better individually, but they don't make a whole.

The 2nd Movement on BWPS is a thing of beauty. Those 4 songs just flow together so well. It is a very moving piece of music.

I'm totally with you there. My favorite song on BWPS though is "On A Holiday" - except that it's way too short!

But ultimately I find it a SATISFYING whole.  And SOOOOOOOO much better than we had any right to hope for.

Absolutely. I was in the audience of the first three performances in London 2004. The first time around I was stunned. The second time I was actually a bit disappointed because there were some fragments that I really had expected more of. But the third time I finally "got" it and now I love it.

[shelter]

Love it, for at least the next several months if will be one of my favorite albums ever. But once The Smile Sessions are released, BWPS will lose some relevance. It will go from "So you're supposed to be that Smile album? Oh well, OK, you'll do." to "Thanks for keeping Smile's seat warm. Good job. Bye.".

[pancakerecords]

I do agree with those who prefer the live version.  As such, I listen to the Carnegie Hall recording (broadcast by NPR) more than the official BWPS.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4182988

There's a reason that BWPS has a score of 97 at metacritics (and is the highest-rated non-reissue).  Two words: THE MUSIC.  Let's face it.  The Smile songs are incredible, and the musicianship on BWPS is great.

It'll be interesting to see how the Beach Boys' Smile Sessions will do with on metacritics.  97 will be hard to beat.  Most here (including me) prefer the original tracks and the BBs' vocals, but the Sessions' incompleteness (at least compared with BWPS) will likely earn a few demerits from some critics.

How can I burn the Carnegie 2-parter at NPR onto CD?

I recommended downloading this, Don

http://www.nch.com.au/switch/index.html

[absinthe_boy]

Yes, the entire second movement is just so powerful - the first night, by the end of "Song for Children", I was a wreck.

The 2nd movement is a masterpiece on its own. My first exposure to the completed 2nd movement was via the Bristol DVD that Bruce likes so much. I was in tears throughout most of it, to be honest. I stated there and then on the old Smile Shop board that "Wonderful" should be released as a sigle. It was (in the UK) and it was a palpable hit....on 45RPM vinyl only!

As for BWPS as a whole.....at the time it was the nearest we were likely to get to Brian's final word on SMiLE. It was *a* completion of the project, but not what would have been in 1967 or what might have been in 1972, or 1998 or whatever. The fact that Brian, Darian and Van Dyke were able to draw all the pieces of the jigsaw together and make something so very coherant was nothing short of astonishing.

I did get to see a live show a few weeks before the album was released. And as others have said, that music was never really envisaged as a live performance....it was the ultimate studio record. But live, it blew me away. The whole thing flowed from start to finish, even the obviously more recent 3rd movement.

It is what it is.....a wonderful bringing together of the strands. It works as a whole, and each movement has its own character. It is in no way an abomination - indeed the fact that it is so coherent is a huge testimony to the work that went into bringing BWPS to fruition.

As for the discs themselves, it is one of the few CDs that I can actually listen to (as opposed to vinyl). Mark Linett did a stirling job. And the US pressing of the vinyl is to die for. Which is why I bought two copies...

[PhilSpectre]

I think (like most here seem to) that one has to differentiate between BWPS as a completed composition and a recorded album. The composition to me IS the final word on SMiLE. It's SMiLE as history made it. The 66/67 sessions are a first recording attempt that was aborted.

There is many examples of artists that first tried to do a work, then abandoned it and finished it later. One of them is famous German poet Goethes most famous work "Faust" which he started as a young man but completed it close to fourty years later - like Brian did with SMiLE. Like SMiLE, Faust had been published in fragmentary form in the meantime. But not the 1770 fragments are regarded as THE Faust, the 1808 finished version is.

I love the final composition of BWPS, which is THE SMiLE. We will never have another one.

Agreed. The album released as Brian Wilson Presents Smile was completed by the original creators of the project Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks (obviously with important contributions from Darian Sahanaja and perhaps other band members). For that reason alone, that BW and VDP returned to, worked on and signed off on the project in 2003/4, for me, that record is THE COMPLETED SMILE.

The upcoming box set is a compilation of the earlier uncompleted sessions from the '60s and is obviously wonderful to have and fascinating in its own right. But the '60s sessions, however wonderful, are kind of earlier drafts or a collection of beautiful fragments that have an important place in the history of Smile and the BW story, but IMO the finished article has to be the 2004 album release.

[Wirestone]

As it goes, I've since reversed my opinions, but not to an extreme. Nowadays I prefer the officially-released BB versions when I'm just listening to certain songs individually, or in a playlist. But BWPS does it for me when I want to hear a version of the album in full. I still haven't heard a compilation or sequence that didn't sound incomplete or inferior to the 2004 sequence (which I'm sure runs contrary to the opinion of many here, but I guess that's what makes the debate fun).

This is spot on.

I never thought Smile as remotely completed until I heard the 03-04 sequence. It rocks.

In retrospect, I think the 04 recording is very much its own animal. It's a much brighter, less moody take on the material. But I think of it as an reinterpretation -- much as orchestras will put new and different spins on classical standards with different conductors. The strangeness / scariness is gone, replaced with a determined upbeat-ness.

I also think -- again, in retrospect -- that it probably meant less to Brian to "finish" it, then it did to his fans. But the public and critical response to it -- I think that ended up being very meaningful and important to him. He's done some really good and solid work since.

[Cam Mott]

Great achievement for all involved but on a personal level: didn't grab me, listened to it a couple of times when bought but not since.

[Roger Ryan]

Since most discussion is about how BWPS duplicated the original sessions (successfully or not), I feel the most interesting aspect of it is the new ideas it brought to the table. The most obvious of these are the newly completed songs "On A Holiday", "Song For Children", "In Blue Hawaii" and "The Child Is Father Of The Man". Dismissing these tracks as inauthentic because they feature new lyrics is missing the point; they are fabulous works on their own. For those of us who so longed to hear Brian and Van Dyke work together again, these newly finished songs are a true joy (and a bit better than "The Waltz"  ). Movement #2 is brilliant and this is largely due to the care Parks brought in contributing new lyrics that supported the theme of the earlier lyrics without overwhelming them (with moments as heavy as "Wonderful" and "Surf's Up" at either end, you wouldn't want to overwrite the middle portion). The subtle one verse lyric for "Child..." completes that song for me and while "I Love To Say Da Da" is pleasant enough, "In Blue Hawaii" is the song fully realized; it's like only hearing the backing track to "I Get Around" for decades, then suddenly hearing the song with all the vocals, lyrics and melody.

There are many great production/arrangement ideas as well. I think it's marvelous that every time a "vintage" song is interpolated ("Gee", "You Were My Sunshine", "I Wanna Be Around"), the vocals sound like they're coming from an old victrola as if those songs are memories filtering their way into the "present tense" of SMiLE. Positioning "Cabin Essence" after "Old Master Painter/You Were My Sunshine" reveals the aural painting of the sun setting (the descending string note) followed by a lamp being lit in the darkness. Similarly, the positioning of "Vegetables" after "I'm In Great Shape" not only ties in the idea of produce being gathered from the "great shape of the agri-culture", but establishes a poetic connection between the lines "I wanna be around to pick up the pieces of your broken heart" and "I'm gonna be around my vegetables...", not to mention how well the sounds of the workshop blend with the percussion that opens the "Vegetables" backing track. The fuller backing vocals to "Surf's Up", along with the delicate string arrangement on the middle section, provides a glimpse into a possible approach Brian might have taken with the '66 version. The slight alteration of the last reprise of the horn/woodwind section of "Song For Children" to make it more closely resemble the final vocal modulations in "Good Vibrations" is a lovely touch as is the reprise of "Our Prayer" at the end of "In Blue Hawaii". Finally, as I've mentioned elsewhere, having the harmonica and melodica play in counterpoint at the end of the verses in "Cabin Essence" instead of in unison is an improvement over the original arrangement in my opinion.

I think BWPS was a great way to introduce this music to those who were not familiar with the original sessions. The Beach Boys tracks may have more depth and skill (and better vocals for the most part), but I doubt they would have impressed listeners in the same way as hearing this tightly-edited, and finished-sounding, presentation.

[Shady]

Great achievement for all involved but on a personal level: didn't grab me, listened to it a couple of times when bought but not since.

Curious, why didn't it grab you?

[buddhahat]

Great review, Roger Ryan. I enjoyed Reading that!

[The Shift]

Can't think of a thread in recent months where I've agreed so much with virtually everything that everyone says!

Only one thing to add: after sitting through the first performance of smile at the RFH, I was gobsmacked. And what I thought was one of the most amazing aspects was the realisation that Brian had just drawn a line under the 1060s.   As if to say: "Hey Human race, it's okay -  you can all move on now, I'm done here."

[Les P]

Roger, well written.  You brought up some points I had not noticed.  And I can more appreciate "I Wanna Be Around", which seemed a bit unnecessary and stuck in to me. 

And perfect "I Get Around" analogy for "In Blue Hawaii."  I LOVE LTSDD, but could not listen to it without thinking "if only they'd gotten to the vocals..." or "what would have filled this blank space?"  or "what if he hadn't canceled that last session?"...enjoyable, tantalizing, but ultimately imbued with a sense of loss.  We'll probably never know BW's original conception for Dada, but I'm very satisfied with "In Blue Hawaii".

[Peter Reum]

The 2003 additions to Smile are all lovely. In Blue Hawaii and Song for Children particularly are jewels that any artist could be proud of. I like the lyrical reference to pirates in Holiday. The second movement in my mind ranks with Rhapsody in Blue as some of my all time favorite music.

The lyrics to Roll Plymouth Rock are a huge contribution to the flow of the first movement. That movement evokes the change from Pre-European America to agrarian America eloquently. My grandfather uncovered the cornfield in 19th century rural Illinois, and was a member of the local Grange.

Movement 3 is breathtaking...especially from Wind Chimes on into Fire. then into In Blue Hawaii....When I heard those vocals on Fire, I knew that they had always belonged there. Being in London for the world premier was an experience I will always count as a musical highlight of my life....like when my mother played Rhapsody in Blue on the piano for the first time with me there to hear it. 

[Cam Mott]

Great achievement for all involved but on a personal level: didn't grab me, listened to it a couple of times when bought but not since.

Curious, why didn't it grab you?

I don't know exactly, it just did not grab me. I'm more of an originalist I guess. The hype and what seemed to me to be overstatement about it sort of turned me off too probably but it just didn't excite me. I'm glad it happened and others love it however.

[TheLazenby]

Movement 3 is the only flaw, in my opinion.  It seems that Movements 1 and 2 are as they always should've been (I do like "Do You Like Worms" after "H&V" instead of "Barnyard", as bootlegs have done... that sounds dumb!), and Movement 3 is ALMOST perfect.  But "I'm In Great Shape/I Wanna Be Around/Workshop" is a completely pointless addition.

I mean, why start that section with an otherwise unused H&V chunk, bizarrely segued to a piece that appears totally out of its apparent context (rebuilding after the fire)?  The people who went to see Smile Live had to be scratching their heads at that one.  I've actually reburned the CD WITHOUT that track - just starting at "Vegetables".

[Jeff]

Since most discussion is about how BWPS duplicated the original sessions (successfully or not), I feel the most interesting aspect of it is the new ideas it brought to the table. The most obvious of these are the newly completed songs "On A Holiday", "Song For Children", "In Blue Hawaii" and "The Child Is Father Of The Man". Dismissing these tracks as inauthentic because they feature new lyrics is missing the point; they are fabulous works on their own.

...

I think BWPS was a great way to introduce this music to those who were not familiar with the original sessions. The Beach Boys tracks may have more depth and skill (and better vocals for the most part), but I doubt they would have impressed listeners in the same way as hearing this tightly-edited, and finished-sounding, presentation.

The point about them being "fabulous works on their own" is important.  Actually, people can agree or disagree about their quality, but they need to stop making ridiculous statements like BWPS is "the final word on SMiLE" and "SMiLE as history made it."

As Roger says, the BWPS tracks are their own works.  BWPS and the 1966-67 sessions are by different groups, with different lyrics, different tracks and a different purpose.  Claiming that the one excludes the other is just dumb.

[Jeff]

Movement 3 is the only flaw, in my opinion.  It seems that Movements 1 and 2 are as they always should've been (I do like "Do You Like Worms" after "H&V" instead of "Barnyard", as bootlegs have done... that sounds dumb!), and Movement 3 is ALMOST perfect.  But "I'm In Great Shape/I Wanna Be Around/Workshop" is a completely pointless addition.

I mean, why start that section with an otherwise unused H&V chunk, bizarrely segued to a piece that appears totally out of its apparent context (rebuilding after the fire)?  The people who went to see Smile Live had to be scratching their heads at that one.  I've actually reburned the CD WITHOUT that track - just starting at "Vegetables".

The "otherwise unused H&V chunk" was listed as a track on the back cover.  As for IWBA/FN, I don't think you or anyone else can say it was intended to go after Fire, especially since the session sheet identifies it as part of Great Shape.