Health Care

[Jason]

I'm not against freedom of movement per se but I am against it when it becomes a situation where the state encourages this type of behavior. You remember what happened in Sweden. What's to stop that from happening in the UK or the U.S.?

I won't deny that in some folks, the anti-immigration stance is inherently racist; they see their country as being specifically for "our people" (think Russia for Russians, that ridiculous political movement). I don't think any land is for a specific set of people (borders are bullshit) but at the same time the state sees this as an opportunity to foster division and illegitimacy. Why? It makes people vote for them. Politicians are the worst type of parasite - they're worse than the military. Politicians have no marketable skills so they go into the bullshit business. I sometimes think that Barack Obama and David Cameron have a competition to prove just how much more of a crony pissant one can be over the other.

As I failed before to see how MB is a racist, I now fail to see how he's a sexist neanderthal. If you think a guy making a joke about another guy having a vagina is sexist...you must really not hang out around guys.

[Mike's Beard]

It's a wonder I can type on my keyboard at all, what with my knuckles dragging on the ground all the time.

[Jason]

Oh, and when a woman goes on and on with her righteous indignation complaining about how other women refer to guys as "dicks", then maybe I'll take the victim card seriously. Equality = men joke about vaginas, women joke about dicks.

[Mike's Beard]

I keep forgetting that as a white, heterosexual male I'm not allowed to crack a wise one about anything, such is my burden in life.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Not all guys here talk or think like that, WH.

I certainly don't.

[Mike's Beard]

Also I believe that Wild Honey is from Australia, a country with one of the strictest rulings on immigration in the world. So to have her claim that my wishing for less migrants in my own country is 'racist bile' sets the bells of irony ringing in my ears.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Here it is: proof a little social justice exists in this world 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocnVv7-koWQ

[bluesno1fann]

Also I believe that Wild Honey is from Australia, a country with one of the strictest rulings on immigration in the world. So to have her claim that my wishing for less migrants in my own country is 'racist bile' sets the bells of irony ringing in my ears.

I don't think that's true about Australia at all. You're talking about when it was White Australia, nearly 50 years ago. Things have changed a lot since then, and Australia is quite open to immigration, except to certain Asylum seekers.
If you go to Australia, and check it out, there's far more Muslims, Sikhs and Asians than there are of European descent. Even my mum comes from Japan! Doesn't sound like a strict country on Immigration to me. Very multicultural and open actually.
Unlike a country like America, where it is almost impossible to get Green cards, and when you try to cross the border, the guards will shoot to kill you

[alf wiedersehen]

Gosh, what a terrible thread this is.

[guitarfool2002]

So much for the topic. Oh well. I hope the health care posts can be saved for anyone interested. Because I'll keep posting info if anyone is interested.

[guitarfool2002]

Just reassure me that going off topic to this extent wasn't a diversionary tactic from discussing the health care debacle, and I'll sleep well tonight. (After catching Fallon and the Mission Impossible rerun on MeTv, that is... )

[alf wiedersehen]

So much for the topic. Oh well. I hope the health care posts can be saved for anyone interested. Because I'll keep posting info if anyone is interested.

I thought seeing first-hand consequences of a plan being put into action was interesting.
It was the pile of brainless sh*t that followed that really ruined this thread.

[guitarfool2002]

So much for the topic. Oh well. I hope the health care posts can be saved for anyone interested. Because I'll keep posting info if anyone is interested.

I thought seeing first-hand consequences of a plan being put into action was interesting.
It was the pile of brainless sh*t that followed that really ruined this thread.

While waiting for Brian and Beck to play on Fallon, what if they start to play "Surf's Up" and Fallon grabs a mic, saying "Ladies and gentlemen, special surprise guest guitarist CC DeVille from Poison!!!". Similar effect? 

[Mike's Beard]

Also I believe that Wild Honey is from Australia, a country with one of the strictest rulings on immigration in the world. So to have her claim that my wishing for less migrants in my own country is 'racist bile' sets the bells of irony ringing in my ears.

I don't think that's true about Australia at all. You're talking about when it was White Australia, nearly 50 years ago. Things have changed a lot since then, and Australia is quite open to immigration, except to certain Asylum seekers.
If you go to Australia, and check it out, there's far more Muslims, Sikhs and Asians than there are of European descent. Even my mum comes from Japan! Doesn't sound like a strict country on Immigration to me. Very multicultural and open actually.
Unlike a country like America, where it is almost impossible to get Green cards, and when you try to cross the border, the guards will shoot to kill you

You can get a Visa to live in Australia if you have a skill or trade that the country is in need of, or if you have family already settled over there. And as you point out it doesn't matter what your skin colour or religion is, but as you also mentioned, Asylum doesn't really fly over there, if you have a criminal conviction your chances of being let in are slim to zero and without family already over there it's not as if I could apply to move there today to perform a menial 9-5 job.

Also just to turn the subject on it's head (even more!), if I told you that I'd be just as against mass immigration to my country from white, English speaking, Christian Australians for the same reasons as I've already stated I'm against a mass influx of Europeans would you consider me to have deep, irrational hatred for the people of Australia?

P.S Sorry for diverting your thread Craig, but if someone calls me out I'm entitled to respond in kind.

[Wild-Honey]

Oh, and when a woman goes on and on with her righteous indignation complaining about how other women refer to guys as "dicks", then maybe I'll take the victim card seriously. Equality = men joke about vaginas, women joke about dicks.

Did I say I referred to guys as dicks?  Who told you that?  None of my females friends do either.  I don't agree to degrading men either, or anyone for that fact.. and...  my male friends don't talk like you and Mikes Beard,  I know there are guys like you around but I avoid them like the plague. You are so sexist you can't even see it.

[Wild-Honey]

Not all guys here talk or think like that, WH.

I certainly don't.

I know you don't, you've always been a stand up man as far as I have been aware.  Most other guys here are great also.

[Alan Smith]

Also I believe that Wild Honey is from Australia, a country with one of the strictest rulings on immigration in the world. So to have her claim that my wishing for less migrants in my own country is 'racist bile' sets the bells of irony ringing in my ears.

Australia has insane rules and attitudes towards immigration.  It's proving to be a real challenge for both sides of the political fence; and dividing the community.

However, Wild Honey's personal politics are not on the table, where as your's are - your claim of irony is guilt by association; and a generalisation based on policy that is not within Wild Honey's control.  And, therfore, a bit ropey.  Perhaps the bells of irony ringing in your ears is really the sound of yourself drawing a long, long (really long) bow.

Wild Honey is cool - if you've got a problem with her, you've got a problem with me...and I'm sure you're probably peeing in your pants, filling out your deed poll form and packing up your house at the thought of that.

*Sigh* - one of my personal rules here is to not get involved in anyone else's arguments - especially in the Wild West that is the Sandbox. But I think this thread has gone "beyond its (mother-fuckin') remit", so how about we get back to the facts and get it back on track.

And RBB, comon', set an example...

[rab2591]

Oh, and when a woman goes on and on with her righteous indignation complaining about how other women refer to guys as "dicks", then maybe I'll take the victim card seriously. Equality = men joke about vaginas, women joke about dicks.

Aaaaaand this is part of the reason why some people don't take you seriously as a moderator.

It's about respect, not about "well she says this so he must be allowed to say this" - as a mod, I would hope you'd see that.

[Jason]

I've set an example in this thread. I have not personally attacked anyone here, unlike Pinder, hypehat and Wild-Honey (Mike's Beard jabbed back). The fact that people disagree with my conclusions does not reflect poorly on me as a moderator; it reflects poorly on those who can't take a dissenting opinion. But, let's call a spade a spade. Nowadays, being called "sexist" or "racist" is analogous to being told to "go to hell". It's essentially an empty remark banded about by folks who have little, if any, of a valuable argument. It's also a thread about POLITICS; if you think political discussions are all "cheerio and tea and crumpets"...well, I'm sorry this one shattered your perception. I'd say as far as political topics go this is one of the TAMER ones on here!

Take the personal squabbles to PMs.

[Alan Smith]

I've set an example in this thread. I have not personally attacked anyone here, unlike Pinder, hypehat and Wild-Honey (Mike's Beard jabbed back). The fact that people disagree with my conclusions does not reflect poorly on me as a moderator; it reflects poorly on those who can't take a dissenting opinion. But, let's call a spade a spade. Nowadays, being called "sexist" or "racist" is analogous to being told to "go to hell". It's essentially an empty remark banded about by folks who have little, if any, of a valuable argument. It's also a thread about POLITICS; if you think political discussions are all "cheerio and tea and crumpets"...well, I'm sorry this one shattered your perception. I'd say as far as political topics go this is one of the TAMER ones on here!

Take the personal squabbles to PMs.

Who said it was cheerio and tea and crumpets, other than you. A key element of Politics is resolution, and you seem to be quite happy to block that as required. IMO.

While IMOing, you personally attacked Wild Honey when you you pulled this one out - "Oh, and when a woman goes on and on with her righteous indignation...etc"<insert your semantics here>; it was a personal attack, suck it up.

Happy to PM it - but not because you're grandstanding/forcing faux-closure in the public forum.

[Jason]

I'm not blocking anything; I disagree with the conclusions reached by everyone in this thread short of Mike's Beard and guitarfool - however, unlike those I disagree with, I don't see fit to personally attack others. The remark you quoted was a blanket statement, not a personal attack.

I'm also not closing the thread. This discussion had some merit until hypehat derailed it.

[Niko]

You can't just pin it all on him. You could have put it back on track if you had tried

[Jason]

I agree.

[beacharg]

I live in Argentina, a free health care country. The system is quite simple: Who pays the bill? The same who pays for education, military, security, intelligence, government, justice, foreign relations, etc etc etc...
Health is considered a basic public service.
There are lots of problems and discussions: for example high taxes, corruption, low/poor mantaince, or un-necessary services like public football tv, but not having public health care seems insane.
Im not actually judging you, because I understand we have different cultures. Just wanted to show you another point of view.

Sorry for my basic english.

[Jason]

Finally, a refreshing alternative viewpoint that is not dripping with logical fallacies.

I opined earlier in this thread that the "right to health care" was a "positive right" - one that requires property to be forcibly taken from another (taxation) to enable such a "right". Positive rights are not actual rights because it is impossible to have a right to a product that you do not own. This is different than, say, owning a house - as the property owner you have a right to that property and the land it sits on. In the case of health care, we're talking about the product of someone else's labor. A "national system" is funded by taking justly acquired property from others (taxation). Taxation in and of itself is immoral and is impossible to defend without appealing to emotion, tradition, majority, or just plain good old use of ad hominems.

Now, you have a right to PURSUE health care. This means that you use whatever faculties you have at your disposal to come to mutually agreeable terms between yourself and a medical professional that do not violate the rights to life, liberty, and property of others. Indeed, this does not mean you have a right to the product itself. Health care is a product. Always has been. Always will be. Those who think otherwise have an entitlement problem and it is THEIR OWN problem - not the problem of the free market (under which health care was cheaper, more efficient, and of higher quality), which is the classic straw man used by the "right to health care" folks.

People want to blame the free market for horrible health care practices in countries like the U.S. when in reality the U.S. health care industry (alongside the education industry) functioned beautifully without government influence or regulation. Once the government influence and regulation reared its ugly head, insurance companies became the norm rather than the exception (people only carried insurance for catastrophic care, not a routine checkup), costs grew exponentially and the quality of care declined. Intellectual property laws also helped inflate the cost of prescription drugs way beyond what they're really worth. The U.S. health care system is corporatized; it is not an example of a free market and hasn't been since the Lyndon B. Johnson and his Great Society and War on Poverty.

The moral argument against a publicly-run health care system is very simple - short of a coup, the state never goes out of business. It can inflate the currency ad nauseam to keep itself in business, just like the U.S. has been doing for years to hide the fact that the U.S. government is bankrupt and running record deficits. As long as the state has a guaranteed source of income (taxpayers, inflationary practices via central banks, nations dumb enough to buy our debt) it has no impetus whatsoever to better itself. I really don't know how folks in countries with nationalized health care systems haven't taken to the streets, unless they love being on the state lollipop.

A privately-run health care system cannot possibly risk a consequence like going out of business. This brings us to the beauty of self-regulation. A privately-run industry will still be regulated, but by a much tougher group - customers and their wallets. As a result, capitalism makes things cheaper, not more expensive. If you offer a better product for less, you will win out. The same worked in health care for years. Only people so stupid and presumptuous as the cult known as "government" could ever dare challenge a system like that.

"There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him." - Robert A. Heinlein, The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress