The Smiley Smile Message Board

Another rocket attack between camps?

From Nelson's Facebook page:


From the couple of times I've met him, I rate Nelson as a hugely talented genuinely nice guy so this kind of severity is surprising. Or is it a wind up?

Btw if you've not heard his solo albums, your pace needs quickening! ;D

Oh my.  :o

I already posted it in the "Beacon" reviews thread earlier today. I hope a thread in the main section doesn't get out of hand. :-X

But yes, I must say, this is a surprise coming from Bragg. Especially in that 'tone'. Guess we have confirmation now for what many of us had already suspected.




Yap! I really liked his latest:

(http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/500/86998399/We+Get+What+We+Want.jpg)

If only OSD was here for this madness!!!!!! >:D

When Stamos joined them for the JB show that year, he played drums on a few more songs than usual, and screwed up the verse part of "I Get Around". Nelson was visibly agitated at the time as I recall.

Maybe Stamos stole his chick.

Why would he lash out so long after the fact?

Maybe he just read the (relatively) recent profile of Stamos in Guitar Aficionado? Or saw the TMZ coverage about the Manson claim?

That was my fear but figured it's too out-there to slip on the end if a 2 year old review thread! :)

It doesn't appear as if the post if still on Nelson's FB page--unless I am missing it somehow. It does say the last post, dated 6/12, was edited--was that where it appeared?

Still up there. Posted eight hours ago ...

www.facebook.com/nelson.bragg

Where is the smoking unplugged guitar? ;)

The epitome of classless.

When it happened I figured it was just a fake because of how seriously angry the band members were (see the Rolling Stone article) but then I was told by others that they really had problems with the video so I didn't think much more about it.
What can I say? I wasn't there, I don't have any insight or information. I think it it could've been just a way to get Stamos on stage; it wouldn't be the first time the Beach Boys did something in bad taste. But I don't have much reason to really assert it was just a "hoax"

Well, I figure if Stamos really really wanted to be on stage and sing one lead he'd just ask his pal Mike and the Lovester would arrange it. Even if it happened just like Bragg is saying, what good will it bring to spill teh beans after two years? It's like Jeff Beck describing in interviews how comatose Brian was in the studio. I guess the Beach Boys' trademark classless is contagious.

Being a fan of this band has really become something of a nightmare.....

My fandom of the band is not based on what associates think. It's based on the music. I couldn't care less what a member of Brian's band (or any of the other bands) thinks.

This kinda ties in with what I, and I'm presuming several others here, was told at the time, that the band were very unhappy with JS being there and doing what he did.

+1

Slightly off track: From what two of the principles told me that night after the show, unlike the Carl vocal track on GOK being locked to the picture, the Dennis vocal was not (or vice versa?) For whatever reason, the musicians couldn’t hear that the Dennis vocal was not playing and were carrying on obliviously to a vocal-less performance. Personally, I was disappointed because “Forever” wasn’t played in New Orleans and this would be my first shot at seeing the new “production.” There were audible groans when Stamos “saved the day" -- along with the 19 other times during the show that he appeared doing schtick and bringing the musicianship of the band down.

My wife said the perfect line: "So, does he just get to come out on stage and do whatever her wants?"

Yep.

I understood at the time that there was a legitimate malfunction. At the time, there didn't seem to be a big controversy about it and many thought that Stamos indeed "saved the day". It would be interesting to find out if it was a set-up, but it's a little hard to believe if it's true. Like the previous poster said, all he'd have to do is ask Mike to get up there and sing. Guess you really had to be there to see what really went down.

Something musta happened recently to piss Nelson off. Why would he wait this long to voice his displeasure over this issue? Is Stamos getting more gigs than Nelson these days?

I was front row at that gig and there was definite confusion on stage between the principle band members.  When it was clear DW's vocal was not going to be heard, Jeff motioned to Brian to jump in and start singing.  Brian did not seem to understand him.  Mike and Al looked at each other wondering what to do.  Stamos eventually did walk out and sing the lead.  If it was all planned then it was something planned privately between John and the sound guys (and maybe Mike) because it appeared no one on stage knew what was going on.  I do recall JS saying at the end of the performance that it was a good thing he was backstage and was able to save the song.

I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt that it was not planned.  From the get-go, he had always been respectful of the C50 tour and giving the band enough space and attention without him.  It doesn't seem to be in his character to plan something underhanded like this.  Nelson's comments come off as very surprising and I'd guess something recently happened for him to bring to light a 2 year old incident like this. 

so it's classless to call out someone else's classlessness? hm.

It is a little silly from the standpoint that not only is it two years old "news" (if it is news at all), but that he posted it where very few people could see it, including John himself. Maybe Nelson was hoping the post would leak into other parts of the Internet.  Nelson needs to learn to spell (douche without the e at the end, your instead of you're).   

oh it'll leak alright  :smokin

If planned, it didn't much for Stamos' image, did it? There must be some crap going between Bragg and Stamos. And I kinda like Bragg less after this. It is annoying addressing an imaginary list of people Dennis would punch. Let him RIP and solve your problems.

I’ve said before in other threads, while Stamos himself and “Stamos Incident” from 2012 had no particular actual impact on the band or its legacy, that Stamos situation is a good representation of the dissonance between the ideological/musical/cultural/personality differences between the two main “camps.”

Stamos serves a very good purpose as a sort of litmus test. Whether you like him or loathe him and/or his presence on stage, if you told me that there are two people, two “camps”, one of which *loves* everything about Stamos and his being in the band while the other finds it all annoying and inappropriate, I’d tell you those are two people and two camps that are probably very different from each other in many ways.

As for the “Forever” incident, I won’t reiterate in detail my thoughts on that from my posts back in 2012. Regardless of how the “malfunction” happened, I think it could have been handled differently. Stamos did not *have* to get up there at all. The performance was already a shambles, at least from a technical/logistical standpoint. That he sang the lead vocal for the latter portion of the song did not erase the malfunction from the minds of the audience. He could have let them finish the song as an instrumental, or I can’t imagine he couldn’t have gone back on stage and screamed into one of the band members’ ears that no lead was going out to the audience, and tell them to pick the lead vocal up, and if that didn’t work, then just ride the song out as an instrumental. I know it’s loud and confusing on stage, but it could have been attempted. Frankly, as a “guest” that night, Stamos should have let Foskett or Totten take the lead before he did.

The band and the show in general would not have been measurably worse if they had just done the song as an instrumental, and/or stopped cold and restarted it later. Taking the lead did not “save” the show; it only drew more attention to the malfunction and more attention to Stamos.

I'm guessing if anymore reunions should take place Bragg won't be invited.

I'm pretty sure he would be part of that "too many musicians and singers competing for parts" that was cited in an interview. I can't imagine some of the guys in the band wouldn't be perhaps a bit put off by being lamented in interviews a bit, even if no particular member was particularly targeted.

I hope you're wrong. He brings a dynamism to the show that few others ever do. He's versatile, talented and creative, good with the fans and seems to live for the music.

I'd've thought the solution would be "no Stamos, no problem".

While Bragg's comment is surprising, I doubt he'd be daft enough to post it without reason and without validity.

Or even Vintage Music.....

Here's the video:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUkxNVV-QJI

Putting something on your public Facebook page is the very opposite of posting something where very few people can see it.

And one more thing that Nelson can Bragg about:  His girlfriend ain't bad looking.

I'm guessing that Stamos wouldn't have been involved at all regardless of the backing bands opinions without the consent of the principal Beach Boys.

Which principal Beach Boy(s) would be the question to ask?

A real technical problem, or sabotage, whatever. John Stamos didn't belong there and should've stayed in the backstage. Hell, you got at least 15 extremely capable singers on the stage, what do you do when a problem comes up with the video? Call John Stamos to the rescue, of course!

And after watching the video, how convenient that Dennis' voice disappears in between the lines and not abrubtly.

The whole event reads like a Full House storyboard, does it not?

Not exactly a smoking gun.

Just because there are 15 other people on stage--it is presumptuous to assume that each one of them knows the lyrics to "Forever" well enough to step in.  Remember there are no teleprompters available--the only person who had one was Brian.  JS has sung the song countless times and felt comfortable enough to step in.  Plus, I'm not sure any of the back band would have felt comfortable jumping in without the ok from one of the principle members. 

you know I've always hated the way he sings the word "forever" it feels so rushed  :P

Agree, but still... Something still smells here, and it's not me.

It was a split second decision.  And I don't think an instrumental version would have been any better.  The video failed and either scenario wasn't going to improve the situation, the audio dropped and the video continued to flicker on and off even as John began to sing.  There was no way around it.  The line "the show must go on" applies here and while the principles were guilty of being caught in the headlights, they decided to push forward and Stamos thought it'd be best to at least salvage the situation as best as he thought.

My guess would be BRI: Brian, Al, Mike, and Carl's Estate's attorney.

You know, it's true. Stamos had recorded a version of the song - there was even a video of it repeatedly shown on TV years earlier and he even did it in an episode of Full House. So who best to step up here? Second best would've been Brian, only if the lyrics were being displayed on his teleprompter. Only question is if this was staged. By Justin's first hand account, it sounds like it wasn't.

Bragg has a bug up his ass about something.....

was it a full house that night at The Beacon?

 :lol

Yeah but isn't it a coincidence that most fans who believe something stinks here are the ones who genuinely dislike Stamos?  Honestly, if it were anyone else--literally anyone else--running from backstage to sing the song...no one would have brought this up.  But because it's Stamos (and Stamos is apparently the kiss of death) conspiracy theories like this one come up.  

I personally think people's personal vendetta against the guy has clouded their rational judgement.

Anyone read John Cowsill's responses?

I don't really have anything against the guy, other than he's a big hamburger on stage.  Maybe I'm a little jealous because he gets a lot more p*ssy than I do, but other than that he's OK.

P.S. Guess Cowsill just told it like it is. Kinda embarrassing, ain't it?

That may be true on some level. I don't personally have anything against him. If he wants to play guitar here and there and the "true members" are cool with that, that's great. But he raping a classic in front of a paying audience... Sorry. I would've been really pissed off if I was there. And seriously, uhmmm, are you people trying to say that no one from the C50 band knew the words to Forever? I'm sure Brian knew the words, Jeff knew the words, even Mike. Even I know the words, they're not that hard to remember. And you'd think they'd prepared for a situation like that. Anyway, good for Stamos, he definetely got some ladies that night!  :hat

This!

Nelson Bragg, the guy onstage, is telling us what he saw: Stamos had a hand in making sure the video didn't work so he could run out and save the day by singing the rest of his signature song. Is it really so irrational to believe what that guy - the guy who was there and knows more than we do - is telling us? If Stamos did this, he deserves to be called out for it.

Yes, but let's remember we're only getting one side of the story.

I personally found the tribute video things a bit forced, though I did appreciate them ...... I would have rather seen David sing Forever though. That would have been just as touching a tribute for hardcore fans.

I say we let these guys battle it out with each other. It's their business. I don't see the point of blasting someone in public 2 years down the line ..... Pay tribute to Dennis by knocking him out backstage or something.

How were the videos projected anyway? The only way Bragg would have seen anything is if there was a laptop near the drum kit. And then you have to wonder how to glitch a video like that on such short notice. If it were done in real-time, then whoever was behind the board must have been doing something complicated and unsubtle.

Funny how both Nelson & John were both up there on stage together, yet see what happened in totally different ways. Wow, kind of like here, huh? ;)

I figured there was something fishy going on.......................

 :3d

I know Nelson is going to take a lot of heat for this. He can be an emotional guy. He's a friend and I feel for him right now, especially after reading Cowsill's response. Stamos can handle it, he's used to taking crap for lots of stuff. I'm sure it will roll off of him, no problem. I have no idea how the Beacon incident generated, whether organically or if there was monkey business. I do remember thinking how convenient it was that the Forever track "malfunctioned" on a night in NYC, big moment, and John happened to be there. Any other incidents of it not working during C50? I don't know. Every time I saw it, it played beautifully. John wasn't there those nights. Gotta say when i have been around John he's always been really cool to me...ok I admit that I like him personally, I just don't like it when he distracts me from my Beach Boys fan love.

My concern is for Nelson right now. He's a sweet dude, great heart, really regular, totally capable of making a mistake, will tell you what's on his mind, maybe not the most politically skilled guy, but he has balls. I really hope he doesn't get kicked around too much for this. He's not a mean or vindictive type at all. He took a shot at Stamos like so many others have, but in the case of Nelson, he put his name on it. He might be wrong, he might be right, he did himself no favors by doing this, I hope he weathers the consequences okay. John will laugh it off.

I think Cowsill edited his original post. Only the line telling people "not to eat so much carp and grow up" is left. And this:  "Nelson, you need serious help man..."

But he DIDN'T tell us what he saw, and that's what I want to know. I just read the whole thread and I was looking for specifically WHAT STAMOS DID TO CAUSE THE MALFUNCTION. Did Stamos physically pull some plug? The only other way would be to "influence" the video or sound guy. Did Stamos bribe somebody? Would a video/sound man risk his job/career by taking a bribe from John Stamos? If Bragg was going to go that far in his accusatory post, I would think he would at least explain HOW Stamos pulled it off. I'd like to know anyway...

I think the salient point about all of this is that there is a big difference between JS being an annoying to some but overall harmless part of the BB world, and someone who would deliberately sabotage a BB show just to shine a spotlight on himself. If it is ever proven that the latter is true, he is certainly not the nice guy that many paint him to be. Though I don't know him at all, I really find it hard to believe that he would do something like this. I don't believe that even Mike--always the ultimate professional when it goes to live performance--would allow JS to do this, or think it was fine if JS did it on his own. Again, I don't know Stamos at all, but it just seems so far over the top. If he did in fact sabotage the song intentionally, I would have to believe Mike knew about it, which means that the split in the BB world is far worse than any of us imagine.

Cowsill just went down in my estimation, too. Accusing someone of being an alcoholic is not cool ...

Yeah, much ugly business between camps right now.

Exactly.

Additionally, why would Stamos go to these lengths to sing "Forever"?  Couldn't he just ask Mike if he could take the lead that evening?  Why go through all this trouble?  A lot of trouble for very little payoff...Stamos ended up singing barely a verse and a couple choruses.  It would have looked A LOT worse if right at the moment the audio dropped, Stamos rushed out and began singing.  But that didn't happen.  The band went on autopilot for the length of a whole verse and part of a chorus before Stamos finally jumped in.  If Stamos was as desperate as people are making it out to be--why would he do all this for what ended up being barely half a song? 

Accusations are easy but when you try to put it together--the conspiracy falls apart. 

Welcome to being a Beach Boys fan! ..... It's been a long 5 decades of folks going down in estimation...........

And now it's spilling over to the backing guys and associates ...... Maybe it's time for everyone involved to just call it a day  :-\

Cowsill coulda reserved comment in the Facebook public forum and used the private message option.  He sounded pissed. He and Stamos are likely friends and maybe Cowsill thought he should stick up for him and try to reduce the incoming flak and false accusations (without proof). Meanwhile, it seems like Cowsill contributed to the unprofessional public display himself.....

The post was removed. People will forget about this, hopefully quicker than they forgot that Stamos sang Forever at the Beacon. It's not important.

Did he delete the post?  It was there about 20 minutes ago and now I don't see it.

Horrible, horrible post by Coswill, just disgusting

Regarding Nelsons accusations, sounds like sour grapes, the shot at Mikes band at the end is much more interesting than the Stamos comments. With Brian not touring much these days maybe things are getting a little complicated for those guys. Jealousy towards the touring beach boys, 200+ dates a year, a dream for any musican

John is a great singer - I'm glad he was able to rise to the occasion and save the day.

watching the video footage....... does not seem like a set-up to me...

also..... the rest of the guys probably all had 'in ear' monitoring, so would have been hearing a different mix to 'FOH'.

maybe the vocal was in there, maybe it wasn't........ but like someone said before....... there was a long pause

before someone stepped in (John), to resolve the problem........

now,

in the past, (as in Brian tours) Jeff is quick off the mark to step in and fill in the blanks for Brian or the lines he forgets to come in on.....

and on this show..... NOBODY jumps in to 'save the day' and let it go so long....... which leads me to believe they weren't hearing anything different....

John is an actor, and maybe it was planned...... but by observation, technically, musically,......... I don't buy it.

RickB

.. on the other hand, when the on-stage guys had the 'right' mix and knew what was going to happen, they basically had to let it happen - right? At the end of the day they're simply hired hands. If it was planned beforehand, however short-notice it was, the guys on stage had to know. Anything else would be rather f*cked up..

And of course Stamos didn't personally pull a plug or anything. D'uh. How do you guys think such a high-tech operation works? ;)

Stamos is great

I don't think Nelson needed to make the post he did, but John certainly could've sent him a private message (and maybe he did) asking Nelson to pull the post down. Perhaps he's one of John's "golf buddies"?

As far as the second part, I don't think that any of this has to do with "jealousy" or anything close to it. These guys have been with Brian for 15 years and I'm sure that none of them have any illusion as to how many shows Brian typically plays each year. They're professional musicians that get gigs when necessary to pay the bills.

I think Nelson comes across as a major d-bag with that post...it read like a drunken frat boy posted it.

A lot of fuss about nothing...

When I read the thread title I was expecting it to be about much more serious issues.

Stamos singing half a song two years ago is of no importance anymore and Nelson can`t have been thinking straight when he made his post.

Can anyone summarize what Cowsill said?

You are right of course, but Nelson had to know that most of his Facebook views would be from Brian Wilson/Beach Boys fans and that does make it a big deal, for us. It's taken up three pages here in just a few hours. Still amazed that with both of those guys playing right next to one another that they would see this issue completely different. I doubt either could prove that they are correct and surely has to be an opinion by both parties.

I know misspellings and crazy punctuation and grammar are par for the course on facebook and the like, those things do tend to undercut the credibility of what's being said.

A much more cogent argument that would have allowed for no accusations to be made would have been preferable. A strong case can be made that Stamos is a "douche", or that jumping on stage is a douche maneuver.

But unless there is proof or at least some more specifics about what happened, the post does come across like it was written as a crackpot conspiracy theory. As someone else mentioned, how would this have occurred? Would he have had to go pull some cables out of the mixing board, or be in cahoots with someone on the crew? Far from impossible, but it would take a lot of maneuvering.

On the other hand, it's kind of a heavy accusation to make if he didn't know anything more than what the fans know, and he's just assuming. As others have mentioned, it does seem pretty darn coincidental that the one song Stamos sings on stage with the band malfunctioned on the specific night Stamos was in attendance.

As someone else also mentioned, the semi-dig at other band members is intriguing.

Congratulations Beach Boys. Now the dysfunction has spread from you to your fans and now to your backing band members.

What does Ed Carter have to say about all of this?  :lol

I'm only guessing, but I HIGHLY doubt the members of BRI were consulted and permission asked for someone to sit in for part of the set for one or two nights. I would tend to doubt such a thing is required either.

A bigger and more interesting question to me is this: Setting aside any contractual/legal issues, did Mike (and/or any other involved parties) ask the other BB's (specifically, the corporate members Brian and Al) if Stamos could sit it, or did he simply *tell* them Stamos would be sitting in? Did Brian and/or his people know how active Stamos would be on stage?

I haven't gone back and read the contemporary reviews of those two Beacon shows, but I recall some suggesting some sort of "talking to" had to have occurred, resulting in Stamos being much more low key on the second night on stage, and not appearing again during the tour (or did he make one other appearance later?; I vaguely recall that happening).

Guess you're not familiar with Facebook. If you post something on yours or somebody else's page, you can edit or delete it yourself. Just like this board. Bragg left his message and Cowsill left two or three up there for quite awhile.

I simply disagree with these assertions. An instrumental version would not have been particularly better (unless one is inclined to really dislike Stamos being involved), but it would not have been any worse. All else being equal, I think the classy, non-egotistical thing to do would have been to stay back and not jump in. "The show must go on" isn't applicable here. The show was going on, and would have gone on. Stamos didn't save the drums from falling into a water tank or something. He didn't keep the stage set from collapsing. His stepping in was not needed.

The only positive that came out of him stepping in to sing was an ego boost for him, another chance to showboat. Howie Edelson has even mentioned there were groans from the audience about it. Many fans came away feeling the entire show was worse for Stamos being there, especially being so present.

Maybe there were. But the sound of cheering drowns them out on the video.  ;)

How many other singers were standing there who could have more than capably leaned in the whole half inch to their already stationed mic and started singing? I mean Jeff's standing there who's primary job (in part) is to start singing when/if Brian craps out or something. I find it a bit tough to swallow that no one else thought to take up the slack ........ unless none of them could remember the words unprepared!  .... If it indeed hadn't been planned and everyone was just standing there looking at each other, then why not jump in if you're Stamos and know the words?

I would guess almost everybody on stage, with the possible exception of Al who still misses the words to "Wouldn't It Be Nice" almost 50 years later, knew the words to the song.  It seems pretty clear the Dennis vocal track was making it through their on-stage monitors (the monitors are run through a different board than the main soundboard that goes out to the PA). The people on stage didn't know the Dennis vocal wasn't making it to the PA apparently.

That doesn't mean Stamos had to start singing. He could have left it alone, or, as I mentioned elsewhere, he could have shouted really loud in a band member's ear that someone needed to pick up the vocal. Would Stamos have started singing "God Only Knows" if there had been a malfunction there? There's an interesting question! I would guess no. It's an ego thing. "Forever" is "his" song.

Everything has been taken down at Nelson's Facebook page.

David Marks must know the words. But not Mike, Brian or Al I would guess.

Stamos singing it was certainly better than it remaining as an instrumental anyway as the response from the crowd indicates.

To me, Stamos was the most qualified to step forward. Second would be Dave, who had sung it previously. But Stamos knows the song very well. He recorded a cover of it. Brian could have done it with a teleprompter and Jeff may or may not have been able to sing it without a teleprompter. I doubt very much anyone else could have sung it, especially without a teleprompter. Plus, Stamos has a voice closer to Dennis. +1 for Stamos. Also, I can't believe anyone would give Stamos "a talking to" afterward, as if to reprimand him. I would've thought just the opposite. Mike's the leader and don't think he said anything negative to his bud, and Brian (or Al) certainly would not have.

More important question: was Bruce adjusting his mic at that moment?

Not on the C50 he wasn't. Very much a shared deal with Brian.

And Stamos never showed up again on that tour, either ...

Edit: Apparently not. More's the pity.

ahh, dude's covering his ass. too late......

Many fans may have felt that way but I surely did not.  Maybe I didn't hear the groans being in the first row of the theater myself.

I think any rational spectator would have seen the incident as Stamos being a team player for the band by helping out and not a move based on ego.  Instead of letting the song flounder and making it a weird 4 minutes, he chose to do something instead of nothing.  A mistake occurred and Stamos jumped in to alleviate the awkwardness on stage of a bunch of guys singing to no lead vocal.  Fans who were truly bothered by that really don't know when to turn off the Stamos hate switch.  Once again had it been anyone else--we wouldn't even be having this conversation.  Had Neil Young jumped in and sung "Forever" like that it would've been "wow so cool!  Good for Neil" but because it's Stamos--he's an ego maniac.

Criticizing Stamos to this level is a frankly, overkill. 

Yes, but he showed up in the first place. Which may have been with the agreement of Brian, or at least due to Brian not objecting.

I do recall reading that Stamos withdrawing from the tour was by his own choice. He said he didn't feel welcome, which may have had something to do with his being aware of what fans in places like this were saying about him. It could have been members of Brian's band giving him the stinkeye. I doubt Brian himself said anything, since he's notoriously non-confrontational.

Still, I couldn't see Brian reprimanding Stamos either.

Yup.  Stamos knows the song very well.  He performs it whenever he plays on stage with M&B.  Sure one of the other dudes could have sung it but the fact is no one did.  Looking at the video, it's clear that everyone was waiting for SOMEONE to make the first move.  No one wanted to take charge...not because of laziness but because no one felt qualified enough to do it.  It looks like most of the guys were waiting, hoping that the video would somehow correct itself if they continued on.

Again, I think Justin's on the money. On all counts. 10-4 - over and out.

Beacon Theater C50 was early May and Stamos did the Jones Beach intro around the 22nd of June a month later.  

Stamos has "Sweat Equity" in Forever.  People argue with success.  All three guys are great performers, and  gifted and passionate about everything.  Sometimes it gets noisy and fiery.  Goes with the artistic territory. They aren't accountants.

IIRC that video looked like a glitch. I wasn't there.  I'm no eyewitness.

I saw Stamos sing Forever in NJ last weekend to a packed house and enthusiasm that harkens back decades. Anyone who denies what Stamos did for general BB popularity is in serious denial, in my opinion.  Ask young people (non music majors) how they came to know the BB music.  Guess what! Full House! It was like a cult for that generation.  

Actually, I was suggesting that John could've private messaged Nelson and asked him to pull down the original post that Nelson made.

And frankly, a ridiculous one.  

"God Only Knows" is a Beach Boys classic staple and nowhere near the popularity or familiarity of "Forever." Had the Carl video malfunctioned as well---Stamos would have been smart enough to guess that someone on that stage would have picked up the slack and filled in.  The song is part of the BB canon of greatest hits like "Surfin' USA" or "Good Vibrations."  Plus he is aware that he has no business singing that song when Brian Wilson is on stage.  Like it or not, Stamos has made himself the sole "caretaker" of the tune "Forever": over the years he has reintroduced "Forever" both to mainstream audiences by performing it on "Full House" and also to the BB's own fanbase by performing it whenever he's played with M&B.  It's a relatively obscure tune to mainstream audiences and if Stamos isn't present, the M&B band don't even play the song.  Sure David has sung it too, but Stamos has undoubtedly put his stamp on the song--like it or not.  With that said, maybe that explains why there was such a long gap during the Beacon malfunction before Stamos finally jumped in---perhaps he was waiting for David Marks to jump in?  When it was clear that David was not taking over...Stamos took it upon himself to correct the mistake.  Not a big deal--unless you have a personal problem with Stamos of course.

 :smokin

He did more than handle the "intro" at Jones Beach, and as I noted earlier, Nelson seemed more than a little peeved at John that night when he had some issues with the drums on "I Get Around".

And if you'd read my post prior to yours, you would have seen that I had suggested that already.  Maybe there's an echo on this board.

Does anyone seriously think Nelson would have pulled that post with a polite private message from John Cowsill?  I don't.  I doubt he's friends with John or has any regard whatsoever for members of the touring Beach Boys, hence the snide remark about golfing buddies. I doubt Nelson is the type to back down from things, given his "eat s*** and die" posts below that one. But John's remarks (which he edited) may have prompted Nelson to take the post down.

That's a crock. Everybody would believe they were a fictional band devised for the show if that were the case. People know BB from radio, commercials, and films. Full House is a centerpiece in pop cheese that drag the BB down to its level 'forever'.

Here's I Get Around from that show, by the way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8b4Bh9q40w

Baywatch, full house, Kokomo, santas going to Kokomo

Most of The beach boys embarrassments are self inflicted. Stamos is a fan, a big one.. I don't blame him for playing with his favourite band or wanting to cover a song he really likes.

Stamos's hands are clean on this one

No, Saving the Day is a job for Mighty Mouse or the Powerpuff Girls.

Stamos just sux. May Denny's ghost haunt him down if he pulled hanky panky with the video.

Please, what TMZ coverage about the Manson claim?

TV is scripted and contrived. But it was a hit and continues in syndication. Check out Nick stations.  Half dozen shows a day twenty years after the fact.  Pop cheese that is still part of the steady global diet, dubbed and subtitled in about twenty languages.

TMZ's recent interview with noted Manson expert, John Stamos:
http://www.tmz.com/2014/07/22/john-stamos-charles-manson-beach-boys-video/

That sentence is giving me indigestion right now.  :-D

Well, considering "Forever" is one of two songs where there COULD have been a malfunction, it's no longer that coincidental. It's just a one in two chance.

I find it a little strange that folks are acting like Stamos ran up from the crowd to steal the thunder on "Forever." He already was supposed to be part of the show that night, just not on that song. It might not have been "within his right" to run out on stage to finish the song, but if it's not, it's pretty confusing that a guy can drum on "Be True To Your School" but not sing when no one else has taken the reins.


I think C50 was great without Stamos, and it probably would have been great with him too. I find it a little odd that Brian's band members, who have never been part of The Beach Boys any more than Stamos has, should have say whether or not he performs on stage.

Obviously they had a problem with him in one way or another, since Nelson doesn't like him very much. But he's on a Beach Boys album and he's been touring with them for 24 more years than Nelson or any of Brian's band members.

Stamos did a "cover" of "Forever" and knew the words. If there was shenanigans about Dennis' vocals going out, that's pretty crappy. But if he really did jump in when it malfunctioned, then this is much ado about nothing.

I also don't know how he would have forced the vocals to malfunction, unless he ran down to the soundbooth and pulled a cord.

newsjunkie69   

I want a John Stamos creampie.
7 days ago
Reply   

Dedicated fan.

Yes, please. I missed this whole thing.

He commented twice:
[deleted]

The original version of the second line was a lot longer and a lot worse, but John C. quickly thought better of it and changed it. I hope no one reposts it here, but sends a PM instead if they want to fill in the blanks. I don't think Nelson needs to have that re-posted publicly, and I'm sure John regrets posting it, too.

^Agreed. I would like to know via PM, but please don't repost it on the board.

Seconded on both accounts.

.

I came late to this party, apparently. It's too bad the two bands are taking snipes at each other this way. I hope Nelson doesn't wind up in trouble. He's a talented musician and I always enjoy watching him on stage. I also like Cowsill as a drummer, and I'm glad I missed his comments if they were as bad as people say.

I don't dislike Stamos, but I don't particularly like his pretending to be a Beach Boy.  I have to say, when the malfunction incident was first reported, it seemed odd to me that the one song Stamos is associated with was the one song that had problems on the one night he was there. Having done live shows with integrated technology, I know that there is always a back up plan in the very likely event that the technology fails. I just have a hard time believing the only back up plan for the C50 was to hope John Stamos was there to sing the song.  I wouldn't go so far as to accuse him of sabotage, but I don't think it was his place to just run out and take charge of any moment on that stage.  The decision about what to do should have rested with whomever was acting as stage manager. Totten or Mertens, or whatever. If the stage manager had assessed the situation and called him in, that would be just fine. Otherwise, I think he overstepped his place as a guest of the band.

The sad thing, to me, is that "Forever" was supposed to be Dennis'  moment in the band he helped found. That night it was all about Stamos.

It's interesting to read the viewer comments on the actual video of the performance from YouTube, right after it was posted it seems some were skeptical...two years before this thread.

Just consider how many musicians and techs not named Wilson, Love, Jardine, Marks, or Stamos were involved that night. Due to professional reasons I'm sure not one wants to touch this with a ten foot pole.  

The band or at least the drum section would most likely have been playing to a click track, having to sync up with the video for the parts where Dennis is "singing", right? They'd have the click and at least Dennis' vocal and perhaps some additional tracks playing in their ear so the video stayed as close as possible with the live band and live vocals being performed.

I'm just wondering how and why it worked out so the video feed crapped out, which would mean whatever was syncing with the audio tracks containing Denny's voice must have gone down too for this to happen...if it were just the video feed going down, you'd  still have the click track and the audio feed going unless it was all on one source, like pressing play on a DVD and that's it. If the video feed crapped out, you'd still have the audio and Denny's voice going to the house and the musicians' monitors. The musicians would have noticed right away if they lost their audio feeds right? It would have had to be a total tech failure which brought the entire thing down at once, video/audio/sync...the whole shebang. Does it look like that's what happened?

Just trying to figure out what the hell actually happened. I had never actually seen that video until tonight.

It is interesting that you mention the failure of video feed.  I was at a show with the Touring Band last fall, where the only video feed that failed was Carl from Knebworth for God Only Knows.  The audience was prepped that it was a tape of Carl.  And it is the only time I've seen this happen.  Sabotage ? No. It just happened.  The music was enough for the outdoor audience.  The only light had been coming from the outdoor video screens.  Darkness and GOK.  Tribute footage that failed. It wasn't C50.  And Stamos wasn't there.

What you describe is almost exactly my question. Less technically, when you witnessed the video feed fail, was Carl's voice still heard singing the lead vocal as the band "backed" him live?

If so, that's the scenario I'm curious about - It would suggest Denny's vocal track would have still been audible on Forever, as the audio feed ostensibly would have kept playing both in house and in the band monitors no matter what happened to the video being projected.

Was Carl's voice still audible on GOK?

There was a second shooter

Yes, moving, magnificent and all in the darkness.  When a glitch becomes a blessing.

So the video failed, yet Carl's pre-recorded lead vocal audio track which the band was sync'ed with was still audible.

In the case of Forever, that didn't seem to have been the case as Dennis' pre-recorded vocal track disappeared after the first few lines.

I agree. He's a good guy. I met him for the first time yesterday and was floored at how polite he was and how much he loves the band.

Who starts to sing the lead before the chorus comes in? All they get out is "fill your heart with joy I'd sing forever."

He just made an apology!

Who?

Stamos?
Bragg?

Nelson

Not the best apology ever written.

At least maybe he learned the valuable lesson to not drink and post on Facebook again though... :)

Haha he called it "frat boy BS", somebody in this thread called it that.

I'm no fan of John but Bragg came off looking a total tit from all of this.

Was that The Big E? It was kind of magical with Carl's voice kind of floating through the darkness.

It's two years ago and my short-term memory took one helluva kicking back in the 70s... so please correct me if I'm wrong here, but didn't Stamos vanish from the C50 tour very shortly after this incident ?

Aye, and his apology doesn't include Stamos, just "anyone who was offended…".

Infact he almost goes so far as to say the accusation stands based on his suspicions, and he regrets only the terms used and any offence caused.

And he still can't spell "you're".

Suspect he needs to steer clear of beers of the world and other Brian Wilson album threads.

Surely I can't be the only one around here who's posted regrettable things on a public forum when drinking and can therefore relate ......

Nelson and Stamos both get passes ........ Let's all siit back and let the train wreck continue.  :)

Is Stamos a Socialist? .... if so, Bruce might have set him up!

I don't know. Just going on body language, it seems like an organic technical glich and John's over exuberance got the best of him. Don't really feel some Warren Commission subterfuge going on. Since I've never been a fan of the Velveeta actor, I do admit to smiling when I read Nelson's post. Still, he could've skewered John without resorting to a 'frat-boy' level of insult.

I'm just wondering, why is this coming out now? It sure does pull back the curtain on the two camps, and echoing Hey Jude's comment some pages ago, Stamos really does prove a litmus test into what 'kind of fan' you are. And Cowsill's ranting feeds into it - recall how strident he became on Facebook when Mike received the Ella nomination? He basically said 'screw all the haters'. Why your particular hate John? Is it because you feel defensive towards Mike and your own personal crew? (understandable...but still)

He could have simply wished Mike well and left it like that, but no - he had to say 'screw the haters'. Where there's smoke there's fire. It's no wonder that Mike finally said 'enough of this - I want my band (er, brand) back.'

So Nelson`s hate makes you smile but Cowsill`s is unacceptable?

Cowsill said "screw the haters" because there are legions of Mike haters out there! Therefore, he had every reason and right to say it!

Just look at any mile and a half long trail of viewer comments on youtube under ANY Beach Boys related clip, or ANY posting on Brian's Facebook ........ The Mike hate is irradiant! .... If we don't want the slightest bit of blowback ever, and can't handle even the tiniest bit of it, then let's ease up on the hatred a tad ......

Been pondering this for a while and discovered that the basic premise of my personal dislike for Stamos - I don't actually hate anyone except that sanctimonious twat Morrissey and a couple of former friends who richly deserve every last molecule of misfortune that may come their way - is hard to pin down. In fact I can't really quantify it much more than I feel he shouldn't be there, and I wish he'd not try so hard to be Dennis. Others have noted that when he's with the band the musical level drops, but I've not seen him live with the BB so it would be unfair to take that into account.

My 2¢ and undoubtedly worth exactly that.  :)

I'm biased. I admit it. I got a kick out of Nelson's rant. But both guys could've worded their position more diplomatically. Still...you gotta love the golf comment!

(http://i60.tinypic.com/259a4yf.jpg)

Unfortunately, when you're a public DUDE you can't just wing-it on social media. It's a whole lot easier under pseudonyms (witness the comment section on youtube).  

Poor John, can't help but agree that if it had been anyone else other than him they would have been praised for their quick thinking.

Anyone else bar one, I'm thinking.  :-D

I think it`s mildly amusing that so many posters on Facebook immediately congratulate Nelson on the post. Their hatred of Stamos seems to know no bounds and extends to people who have presumably never seen him in concert with the group. Odd.

can't see what the big fuss is. It seems there was an error and Stamos stepped in to help. He did a decent performance too.

As for the timing, sometimes things that have happened ages ago rankle and people decide to express their feelings somewhat belatedly. Nelson has apologised for his rant - an apology I don't believe was necessary. If this was an attention grabbing thing by Stamos he deserves the criticism.

There`s no physical way Stamos could have planned and done that on his own...

IF it was planned in advance then members of The Beach Boys must have been aware of it as otherwise how could Stamos possibly have known that none of David, Brian, Jeff etc. would step in to sing?

Nelson should have made a better job of apologizing and it`s not really much of his concern anyway. He is only a back-up musician (albeit an obviously talented one) and it is outside his jurisdiction for want of a better phrase.

'Not really his concern'? It's more his concern than most of those who have posted here about it, isn't it?

I wasn't there and didn't see what happened but Stamos has always given me the impression of being a wannabe Dennis Wilson. Well, he can want as much as he likes. He isn't.

Sure. This is a message board.

don't need to have seen him in concert to dislike everything he represents in the BB saga.
As someone else said, particularly when it was the one moment when Dennis was getting some recognition, something that had been missing for a long, long time at a BB show.
I think there is quite an American versus the rest component in this one. The rest of the world really don't care about him, and a lot of people rate the Beach Boys legacy just a little bit higher than the whole Stamos, cheerleaders, county fair thing.

The two camps are never going to come even close to agreeing.

Now, back to the beer connoisseurs ....

Haha, some apology.



I was thinking the same thing.^^

Its looks as though BDW makes an attempt at singing vocals but his mic was turned off.

Cowsill replied to Bragg's apology on Facebook:



 ;D ;D ;D





Both, good guys.

It was The Big E! Carl's voice floating through the darkness. Almost spiritual.

:lol

John Stamos=Mike Love  Nelson Bragg=Brian Wilson

It always comes down to this. Taking sides, in this case indirectly. That's why this thread is already 7 pages long and going strong. This message board thrives on it.

Not one person - not even Nelson Bragg - has indicated specifically what Stamos did to arrange the malfunction. No one has even SPECULATED as to what Stamos specifically did to make the sound/track go out. Hey, I'll take speculation. But we're gonna implicate him anyway.

1. Nelson did more than anybody to improve Stamos' image among fans. He now ranks a little higher thanks to Bragg's attack.

2. I enjoyed a lot Cowsill and Nelson's interaction on stage during C50 and I'm glad there's peace among those two now.

Not the same thing at all is it and fans discussing a topic is a different thing entirely from a backing musician drunkenly ranting about 1 show he performed at.

Nelson did the right thing in apologizing (even if it could have been better worded) and Cowsill has done the right thing too.

Not much more to be said...

There is something to this. I don’t think any other person on the planet jumping in would have been free of criticism. But some had a critical eye toward Stamos on that occasion for pretty specific reasons, not just that they “don’t like him.” He has been horning in on the group’s activities to varying degrees since the mid-late 80’s. He has been a nuisance (to some, mostly “hardcore” fans) to the band’s stage performances, and has specifically glommed onto the group using a specific song previously written and performed by a beloved, long deceased member of the band.

So when he jumps up on stage during the band’s anniversary tour, the same two groups of fans are going to have the same reactions they usually do, only more extreme. If you love Stamos’ presence with the band, then you’ll think the incident was cool. If you loathe Stamos’ presence with the band over the years, then the whole thing will come across as extra groan-inducing.

To quickly reference something mentioned in past threads, Stamos himself is aware of the segment of fans that don’t like him. Further, he has said in an interview that he understands not only that some fans don’t like him, but understands why they have problems with him. He admitted that he if was in the audience and Scott Baio jumped on stage, he would be annoyed too. I think, even if he doesn’t agree with it, Stamos seems to at least *understand* why fans loathe him more than some of his own fans/supporters do.

As for Neil Young, he’s a professional singer, songwriter, musician, etc. If he had been there guesting and then took the lead when the recording malfunctioned, there wouldn’t have been any egotistical motive for him to do it. He hasn’t been trying to be the “new Dennis” of the group for 25 years. He hasn’t co-opted the song “Forever.” I’m also not convinced someone like Young would have jumped on stage and started singing.

If John Stamos has “no business” singing “God Only Knows” when Brian is on stage, then he has no business singing “Forever” when Brian is on stage. I doubt Brian or the other BB’s (save perhaps Mike and Bruce) feel like “Forever” is any less tied to Dennis and the Wilsons than “God Only Knows” is tied to Carl and the Wilsons, simply because Stamos has had a hard-on for “Forever” since the 90’s and peformed it on “Full House” several times.

I do think Al should have handed over the lead to “Help Me Rhonda” to those two guys from “Short Circuit 2” though.

It’s also simply a logical fallacy to suggest that if one doesn’t want Stamos on stage, that it follows that one has a personal problem with Stamos. I think Stamos is fine; I watched “Full House” and still will if it’s on TV I suppose. Stamos seems like a nice guy who really digs the BB’s. I believe all of that. But he doesn’t belong on stage or on a BB album. That’s all.

Not that it matters much, but I would imagine Brian would know the words. He was performing “Forever” in concert as early as 2001 as I recall.

While I don't disagree with what either said, our board friend Andrew Hickey and John Cowsill both seem to think of this place as a soap opera, rumor-mongering board. While it is true to an extent, they must remember that John and Nelson need to watch what they write where anyone/everyone can see it. Had they not posted their remarks there, there would have been nothing to discuss here.

On a grassy knoll?

Welcome to the board.

The internet is public domain - don't want it spread? Don't say it. I don't know why people don't have their Facebook posts for friends only. It saves everyone a lot of potential trouble.

So the video failed, yet Carl's pre-recorded lead vocal audio track which the band was sync'ed with was still audible.

In the case of Forever, that didn't seem to have been the case as Dennis' pre-recorded vocal track disappeared after the first few lines.

Seeing The Beach Boys reunited on stage in Manhattan -- actually performing in NYC proper -- all together with a brilliant setlist and good intentions was a dream come true. And to see them devote a portion of that show to Dennis was tremendous. To see that botched by a technical gaffe, followed by John Stamos coming out to finish the song — was akin to watching a car hit your dog, then have it back up to make sure it’s dead. It was like the worst dream.

For the record, I don’t have any beef with Stamos, whom I think is a true fan and has done good things to promote the band to the mainstream via his connections at ABC. To believe that there was a plan involving him to screw with the “Forever” audio and picture is stupid. Truly. But the reason why it remains a sore spot is that, despite his celebrity, he’s an amateur musician and a hog. He never fails to distract and make the music less good.

That night in New York City, even limping and broken, “Forever” should’ve remained Dennis Wilson's song.

The whole video tribute thing at C50 was meant to honor Dennis' and Carl's contributions to the band and what losing them means.  Members of Brian's band said they couldn't bear to look at him sometimes while he watched the videos of Dennis and Carl. "Forever" and "God Only Knows" weren't just numbers in the set, as they had been in other shows. For that tour, they took on personal meaning to the fans, and presumably some of the band, because of the absence of Dennis and Carl.  Stamos crashing that moment seems like a drunk uncle who pushes you aside to talk about himself as you deliver the eulogy at your brother's funeral. A more respectful approach would have been to let the band find their feet and handle it themselves.

Bottom line for me: It wasn't his show.

What Howie said.

Howie, that ABC TV movie was a travesty and John was one of the driving forces behind it. My term for it is a clusterfuck of a movie. There were scenes in that film which were so ridiculous they bordered on libelous. And the people involved knew better, yet chose to make that dreck the "official" version of the BB's as of that time to broadcast on ABC. Can't get past that.

That TV movie project was a worse failure than the Forever video at the Beacon. Some might be inclined to hold a grudge.

Yes, it appears that the video failed. I know little about the technical aspect of this business but I do know from setting up TV's, VCR's, cable boxes, sling boxes, and media streamers that the audio is separate, generally, from video, and they can perform or fail, independent of one another.  It seems as though this is what happened. 

I would bet the house that Mike had way more to do with the storytelling in that movie than Stamos did. As far as The Beach Boys and Stamos goes, what Stamos' relationship is with them starts through his relationship with Mike. That movie was made through Mike's eye and no one else's.

That's the mystery for me, as someone who obviously has no idea what happened technically that night other than what could be seen and heard. You still got to hear Carl's voice with the band even though the video failed, yet Dennis' voice dropped out at the Beacon performance.

The only thing particularly apparent is that we don’t know what happened on that stage precisely, let alone how it happened. By many accounts, the band didn’t know there was a problem for much of the song. That suggests the Dennis vocal track was making it from its source (presumably at the main/house mixing board area) to the mixing board handling the band’s on-stage monitors (which is usually handled separately, often to the side of the stage or somehow nearer the stage) and out into the band’s monitors (most of the band used in-ear monitors, but I believe Al still uses floor monitors “old school” style).

Somehow, that vocal feed was apparently making it to the band’s monitors but not back out into the PA. That would suggest the *source* of the audio feed for Dennis’ vocal was not compromised. It was when it was fed into the house PA that things went awry apparently.

As Howie has mentioned, it’s pretty far-fetched that there was a vast conspiracy to cut the audio, while simultaneously making it look like an accidental malfunction. If one wanted to do it, though, it would simply require either a really keen eye and familiarity with the audio setup at the show, and/or the assistance of someone else with that familiarity and access. Pretty far-fetched.

Problem is, even with it clearly being a pure accidental malfunction, Stamos clearly rubbed band members, audience members, and fans the wrong way. Not all of them, or even the majority of them, I don’t know. But some. Even some fans who don’t really care one way or the other might say that objectively Stamos’ move was tacky.  

Anyone else notice that Bruce was waving him on for like 10 seconds before he actually showed up on stage?

I would agree with Howie - Watergate, it ain't. And, not for nothing, but Stamos did popularize the song. There are well over a million hits on YouTube. Carl sang it from time to time, but Stamos gave it mass media attention.  He has had an undeniably huge role in memorializing Dennis.  If people don't like him, it is their problem. He gets a ton of applause and he does not dominate the stage.  Really, no one does, and they give each other room to shine.

There are a lot of haters out there who should just get over it.  Stamos intro'd them a month after the purported "incident."  It's a "slow news day" to dredge this up.  It is old.  

The Stamos hatred is centered around a bunch of sociopaths in the pro-Brian camp who think Stamos is little more than a cheerleader. However, unlike many of the myriad guests who randomly show up on both Beach Boys and Brian solo recordings, Stamos actually IS a fan of the group and a huge one at that. I'll take him over the Johnny-come-lately poseurs.

An over-explanation isn't really necessary here. All I'm saying is when the GOK video failed at another show, Carl's audio still made it through. When the Forever video failed, Dennis' audio did not. Trying to guess what the musicians may or may not have been hearing in their monitors really doesn't apply.

It's usually the same audio source going into both the house mix and the monitor mix on something like this, whatever gets done to that source for each musician is done to the same audio that's being fed to the house mix. So you wouldn't have a case where the musicians' monitor mix would still have something like this Dennis vocal going through if the source for that vocal failed. They don't run two "sources", they could simply mix them differently for house and monitors but it's still the same source being mixed.

And...let's assume what "HeyJude" suggests was possible...when they knew there was a failure, and Denny's voice wasn't getting out, it would have taken a matter of seconds to re-route the vocal the band was hearing in-ear so it goes out to the house, effectively "saving" the performance with Denny's vocal.

That's pure speculation, but if it's that scenario, and some in the band were still hearing Dennis (which I doubt is the case), the house could have still heard Dennis too.

I can speak only for myself, but "hatred" is hardly the right term. ::) Calling fellow fans "sociopaths" ain't the gentlemanliest way to do business, either. WTF...

It was a malfunction of technology. Whether some band members may not care when this happens, others may care a lot. Whether considered tacky or not, someone (Mike, Bruce, whoever) thought it best to have John come out and finish the song. Man, talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill. Eight pages of discussion isn't going to change what happened.  Two plus years of talking about it hasn't brought us any further along as to exactly what happened and who made the call to have Stamos come out. I'll bet many in the band still don't know. Even Nelson in his apology says it was only his opinion, not fact.

Separate the fans who may have issues with Stamos from those you call "sociopaths" and even the word "hatred". Whatever baggage you have against certain fans shouldn't be used to write everyone off as sociopaths who didn't agree with having him onstage at a 50th concert or anything else. My issue was the TV movie, plain and simple. Whatever he did or does with the Beach Boys after that I really don't care.

And nice dig at Brian where it doesn't even apply. Stamos is a true fan, OK. What does that have to do with the myriad guests who I assume you think aren't as big fans as Stamos "randomly" showing up on Brian's recordings?

Maybe not the most gentlemanly way to do business, but as the good Doctor said, what's eight pages of bitching about it going to change? None of us were there except those who were in the audience at said show.

I sometimes think the anti-Stamos people would be livid if Stamos was banned from future concerts - only because they'd have nothing to bitch ad nauseam about on the internet.

I have to laugh. We accuse and call band members all kinds of stuff without them being here to defend themselves, but boy, have someone do the same against board members and wow, does the fur stand on end. We need to take what we dish out.

That wasn't a dig at Brian and I don't know how you came to that conclusion.

You said it. The internet is serious business.

What the..? I'd frown on band members being called "sociopaths" as much as I do when such terms are applied to board members. Who wouldn't? Do you read that stuff before you post it? ;)


Exactly. But I didn't call anyone a *sigh* sociopath. Neither do the majority of people who post here. That argument just collapsed in itself.

You are too touchy. See, I know he wasn't speaking to or about me. To me, only sociopaths would have a problem with it. I will say this, there must be something wrong with all of us to go over all the stuff that we do here constantly. We beat a dead horse on every topic. We all have to throw our opinion out there whether it is thoughtful or pure bullshit. Just my opinion. ;)

Okay, that's just wrong. I've always been one of the least inflammatory members here. To be called a "sociopath" just because I don't think Stamos makes a positive contribution to the band is crossing the line. It's my opinion, and I'm neither a "sociopath" nor a "Brianista." What Brian does on a solo project is is own business. If Mike want to make a solo album with John Stamos, more power to him. But, Stamos is not a Beach Boy, no matter how hard he pretends to be Dennis.

Fair enough. I don't agree with that at all. Especially that last part. But I do accept it. Like the agreeable sociopath I am. :-D

 it's funny how technology is supposed to make life easier but in fact makes it more difficult..

I read what was written.

To call fellow board members who disagree with you about John Stamos (of all things) sociopaths is outrageous. Please apologize now.

I accept that. You have your own opinion. I have mine. No one is going to change anyone's mind here.

If your opinion is really that your fellow board members are sociopaths, I recommend that you resign your position as a moderator immediately.

I apologize for voicing it on the forum.

(http://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lyydhcz1t01rn95k2o1_500.gif)

For the record --


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sociopath

Wow. What a joke that this guy is a moderator. I agree that he should resign. He obviously has no place to judge anybody with this sh*t he's throwing out there.

You now have something in common with Mr. Bragg.

Yes, yes. YouTube hits, yogurt commercials, this are the same citations as in other threads. All of this is subjective, non-measurable, non-provable assertions. Stamos has a million hits on YouTube for the song, where people can click for free. I'll go ahead and follow suit and re-state my same piece of evidence to refute how popular Stamos' rendition of the song was: The Beach Boys put his version on one of their albums ("Summer in Paradise"), and that album failed to reach the *TOP 200* on the album charts in 1992. This was the around the peak of popularity for "Full House" and Stamos' rendition of the song.

Actually, maybe that clears the whole thing up. Clearly, the Beach Boys were dragging Stamos down. If the album had been released under Stamos' name, it would have hit the Top 10.  8)

I would refute the characterization that Stamos never "dominates" the stage. I've seen ample video evidence of this, as well as reports/reviews from audience members. No, he doesn't elbow Mike to the side and sing every song. But, as Howie mentioned, Stamos does pretty much just go on stage and do whatever he wants. It's the total opposite of being humble and standing on the merits of one's own music.

One, as anyone who reads this board is well aware, I'm not in the pro-Brian camp and I would be happy if Stamos never guested again.

Two, I am not a sociopath and I find being called one deeply deeply offensive. Apologise, and now.

Three, any mod who uses such language and holds such opinions is patently incapable of maintaining a neutral stance and should resign their position immediately.

I cannot say that I disagree with any of this.

Andrew, I vote for you take his place. ;)

Since I was at that Beacon show I feel compelled to jump in.   The Forever video glitch was weird at the time.   While it is fun to speculate on a Stamos conspiracy theory, the obvious confusion on stage make any sort of pre-arranged plan very unlikely.  Reluctantly, I'll give Stamos the benefit of the doubt and even credit since he sang in tune (and obviously in Dennis's original key).   That being said, Stamos's behavior during the rest of the show was abysmal.  It was beyond annoying for Stamos to grab Cowsills' drum kit for at least 3 songs at the end of the first set.  The drop off in drum playing was obvious and Stamos's showboating was distracting.   If that wasn't bad enough, Stamos got on stage yet again late in the 2nd set, this time with a guitar.  I still cringe remembering his prancing about "playing" the guitar (plugged in?) with a terrified child perched dangerously on his shoulders.  At the time, I was convinced we were about to witness the serious injury to a child because of Stamos's irresponsible showing off.   The New York Times reviewer  tactfully called Stamos "instrusive."  The friend I went with agreed that Stamos nearly succeded in ruining the show.    Remember, this was the first BB performance in NYC in ___ years and Stamos, the supposed "superfan," insisted on making it about himself.  

This has been a problem with The Real Beach Boy for years. He believes his fandom is more legitimate and enlightened than the rest of ours is. He's a moderator for a board populated by those for whom he has nothing but contempt. Interesting position to be in.

Stamosgate.

That is interesting. I had forgotten that the New York Times reviewed the show and commented on Stamos. Perhaps he got a different kind of blowback in 2012, and that may explain why he actually discussed (and mentioned he understood) some fans' annoyance with him in that "Guitar Aficionado" interview.

Here's the one bit from that 2012 show review:

(Meanwhile John Stamos, the actor, who introduced the band, grew intrusive in return visits to the stage, sitting in on drums and clowning on guitar.) 

Interesting to note that when the fan's video of the Forever glitch was posted on YouTube just after the show two years ago, one of the comments was this:

"This will be known forevermore as... "The Stamos Incident." Mark my words"

Got the name wrong - "Stamosgate" is better - but he seems to have been right.

...........Says the man whom we don't know and only has 2 posts under his belt.

Mikie:  I feel so discredited  (post #3)

Welcome to the board, glad to see your thoughts on the Beacon show! 8)

Nailed it!

Seconded!

Call me a sociopath but this Stamos guy is a real @ss.

It's all about Stamos, not the BBs or their music. Why can't Mike not see that?

But nonetheless, a constructive post with good observations. Kinda supports my initial thoughts about Stamos, and after 8 pages of reading posts that started to sway me in the other direction and give him the benefit of the doubt, after reading your post I'm now back to square one with it. He is a hamburger (and hot dog) on stage. But seriously, I really don't think he did anything wrong here as Nelson Bragg suggests. I might go to the Mike & Bruce show at the Saratoga Winery concert in a few days just to see what Stamos does (if he shows up). I'm gonna find Jude in the crowd and compare notes with him.

You mean like someone seemingly drunk taking over the microphone at your induction into the Rock and Roll Hall of fame ?  ;D

Welcome to the boards, nybbfan!

I was at the second of the two Beacon shows. I didn't know about the Forever incident the first night, but I do remember getting the impression that Stamos had been reigned in significantly compared to reports of past BBs shows. (Also remember an exchange with my wife after his big drum solo: her: "What's going on?", me: "It's a TV actor.")

Actually this urge to Upstage others has been going on (and a problem) since the dawn of Motion Pictures.

I would like a penny for every minute of lost time that producers had to re-take scenes because of hamming it up when the guilty actor was not supposed to be the main focus of the scene. (wealthly beyond my dreams!)

 Because there is no known cure for it - film actors (like Stamos) should stay away from live concert venues.

We cant edit out Stamos' gaffes on stage like an editor can clip a scene on celluoid (or todays digital equivilants)

Hahahahahahaha!




Call me a socio.. I mean.. socialist, but I think 'newbies' with less than 10 posts should deserve the same respect for that they have got to say as the old dogs. ;)

I think Mike has a very specific idea of what he thinks Beach Boys fans want and expect from either a Beach Boys live concert or even an album, going back specifically to the 1980's and up to the present time, and I think the issues like the ones brought up in this current discussion can happen when groups of fans don't agree with that vision. Factor that in when it was the 50th tour, a situation where there were key members of two bands working together on stage, plus original members not connected to either Brian or Mike specifically, and what kind of compromises and changes had to be made in order to get the kinds of setlists and the kinds of shows that were heard on that tour actually onto the stage.

It would be interesting to find out through one of the band members what kind of decisions, compromises, and even disagreements may have happened when these shows were being planned, even for something as basic as the setlist for any given night. I naturally do not expect anyone that involved and still in the employ of the various current bands to ever reveal anything of the sort, but do we think it was all smooth sailing and good vibes considering everyone involved and their opinions?

It's just worth considering that perhaps something like having a guest performer on stage doing more than a guest would normally do - who in this case happened to be John Stamos at the Beacon but it could have been anyone, really - could have been a point of contention even among the musicians who may have been used to that kind of setup having toured and played with Mike previously versus those who may have thought differently about having anyone outside the core group getting that much stage time at what was a pretty big deal of an event for the Beach Boys: Their 50th anniversary tour with all surviving members participating.

Some have mentioned how John's involvement dropped considerably from this one Beacon show to the next show, to the point where he didn't show up at all until the 50th tour was over but started appearing again once the Beach Boys touring band resumed their own gigs. In fact, wasn't he there at the very first gig for a charity function that Mike played after the 50th tour?

Not necessarily forming an opinion either way, but don't you get the idea that Mike thinks having John on stage for as much of the show as he tends to be on stage on average is what he thinks most of the fans want to see at a Beach Boys concert? I won't judge specifically at the Beacon in 2012 because I wasn't there and have only seen Forever on video, but if John was that involved as the reports here have said, it would seem a bit out of place if not inappropriate at that kind of show, and we can only wonder how much discussion or even dissent it may have caused when it wasn't just Mike calling the shots for how these shows would be staged.

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5567/14788103452_aea035d27c_c.jpg)

:lol

Hey if you go to Saratoga wear a gold sparkled skull cap like Mike did in '75 so I can pick you out of the crowd. I'm gonna be there.

Hey, gee, thanks for the advice there, Lowbarker. But if you would have noticed, I came back right after with a respectful post directed at him. It's always good to know who's in your conversation, ya know? I always appreciate those who introduce themselves to the board before jumping in. It's just me.

I missed that. I'm sorry.

To me this 'argument' is just extremely petty, quite childish and quite embarrassing. The heads of these two bands are in their 70s and in all honesty probably hate this kind of thing being 1. made public and 2. another stress in their camp. The two bands, whether they hate each other or not, should just get on with what they are best at - playing Beach Boys music and as fans we should stop trying to create competition between them. They are what they are and I don't see them changing because of some negative comments on here or other boards. They probably laugh it off.

That being said, Nelson posted on social media where plenty of lifelong BB fans 'follow' him so he can hardly be surprised if one of them picks up on it and creates a debate on here. He is almost certainly aware of the divide between fans so of course this was going to turn a few heads.

As a relatively young BB fan I hate to see the in-fighting between BB members, band members and fans. I know it's been going on for decades but it ruins their legacy as one of the best bands ever. As I have said before I am just grateful that I get to see them in ANY form, as I missed out on their peak and know I won't see them playing live for much longer.

As for Stamos, I don't know him personally and have never seem him play live so I cant pass judgement on him. He probably brings more fans to gigs and I don't see that being a bad thing.  

But when it's Stamos it's automaticallyl egotistical?  What would have been egostistical is if Stamos shoved someone else out of the way just so he could sing the song.  Fact is, no one on stage grabbed the mic to save the moment.  Considering Stamos' ties with the song, it was not so far-fetched for him to take the lead on this one--especially when most of the band was NOT prepared to take on a new lead vocal, that last minute.  Had Stamos just sat back and watched the guys sing to no lead vocal I would guess the conversation would have come up later in the show from either mike or Bruce..."Hey why didn't you step in?  You know the song!"  Stamos saw an opportunity to help the band when there was a glitch.  Wow, what an ego maniac!


This logic is what separates us even further.  I don't see Stamos trying to be the next anybody.  I see a superfan who loves playing with his favorite band.  Is he a ham?  Definitely.  But as for being the new Dennis...sorry but gimme a break.  Nothing that Stamos does even comes close to remotely remind me of Dennis in any way.  I highly doubt any one in the audience is thinking "hey, who is that cool guy up there?  He's way cooler than Dennis ever was!"  Just because his favorite song happens to be a song originally sung by Dennis doesn't prove anything.  Truth is, Stamos has resurrected the song "Forever" out of general obscurity and even though he had nothing to do with writing it, he had everything to do with reminding both general audiences and the BB's own casual fanbase that the song was in fact a Beach Boys song they had either never known before or just generally forgot about.  His ultra- light "ownership" of the song is justified.  And when the video went out at the Beacon, it made complete sense for him to go out there and sing the tune.

Once again:  Brian did not leap into to sing the song once the video failed.  Stamos gave the entire band (including Brian) ample opportunity to save the song themselves.  The reason Stamos waited as long as he did was because he knew that there were other members on stage who should have first dibs.  When it was clear that no one wanted to grab it--he did.  Had "God Only Knows" also glitched, Stamos would have known that there were at least 3 people on stage who could jump on the lead with no problem.  GOK is a classic song that the band has played at nearly every gig--regardless of band configuration.  "Forever" is not.  Why let the guys flounder during a song they generally don't know when you're waiting in the wings and you know the song like the back of your hand?   That wouldn't make any sense.  At that moment, Stamos was thinking of the band's performance not about the flack he'd get. 

ok I was completely distracted when I saw Chris from the Partridge Family  :lol

Guys...I'm sorry Jason posted what he did. That certainly did not represent my own views or Smile Holland's as well. Jason has officially resigned as of today.

Wow. Color me shocked.  :o

Jon, I don't have a gold skull cap, nor do I have a turban. But I still have my blue Beach Boys baseball cap from the game/concert at Candlestick in 1983. And in case it's colder than a witch's punany out there, I might wear my vintage 1962 Beach Boys Pendleton. I dunno - I see the VIP tickets are going for 208 smackers. I gotta save for McCartney in a couple of weeks.....no tickets yet!

same here, is Jonas coming back?

I disagree with the premise that anything was up for “dibs”, or the premise that anyone *had* to step in, certainly if we’re talking about someone not in the band. I also disagree with the premise that anybody on the stage was particularly unfamiliar with the song. Brian (and most of his band) had performed the song in the past. Mike and his guys had performed the song in the past. Everybody in the band had been rehearsing and performing the song prior to this performance. I see zero difference between “God Only Knows” or “Forever” in terms of who should have or could have jumped in in the event of a glitch.

I’m also not inclined to buy that Stamos was thinking only of the band’s performance. I think he was seeing an opportunity to sing a song he has an affinity for, and to appear to “save the day.” As I’ve mentioned, it was already a flawed, malfunctioning performance. Paraphrasing what Howie Edelson mentioned, they should have let the song limp to its conclusion rather than back over it with a car by having Stamos “finish” the song.

As an aside, I would say that out of respect for Dennis and the audience, regardless of whether Stamos had finished the song or not, they should have performed it again with the glitch fixed.

I feel like folks are still acting like John Stamos just happened to be backstage. He was already going to be a part of the show. He had been invited to sing and play, and he knew a song that no one was signing.

What a place! It's a wonder that any of the Mods stay on here. What a bunch of hypocrites. I've read some really nasty sh*t that goes down in here and on a more personal level than what Jason said here today. We all need to take a look in the mirror. If we all behaved better in here, Mods or anybody else for that matter, wouldn't go off when this place degenerates in topics like this one. Done ranting, for now.

No, I think everybody is aware he was a part of the show. The reports of some band members and some audience members finding his stage presence and participation distracting does not help his case in any way. It does perhaps help speak to *why* he jumped in on that vocal.

Even the New York Times review seems to not care particularly that the video malfunctioned. They make brief mention of it, but don’t make it a big deal. This would be even more of a non-event if Stamos had simply stayed off the stage for that one span of a couple minutes.

I doubt anyone on earth speaks of it except for here. ;)

Kind of a "Will the Real Beach Boy Please Step down" eh?

Well said drbeachboy! Let's get real here, is this actually an issue worth getting upset about?! I'm sure we all have far more pressing/interesting etc things to be getting on with in our lives. Nelson was wrong to go public with a silly rant. Stamos isn't the most liked person amongst BB fans. That's basically what this boils down to so let's all agree to disagree!

And the above is right. NO ONE cares about Stamos doing the lead other than a few posters on here.

Im waiting for you to say bring back OSD to take his place.  ;D

OSD- emergency moderator! ;)

(http://media3.giphy.com/media/b9aScKLxdv0Y0/200.gif)

Seriously, anyone who called for Jason's resignation should all consider taking the job. I always loved that saying by Jesus, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

::) Wow..

C'mon guys. Starscream has informed us of a serious and rather sad turn of events for this online community. No need to make light of or take obvious delight in what is clearly an unpleasant situation for all involved, especially the other mods. They undoubtedly had some difficult conversations today.

Some people seem to have skin thinner than a Rizla paper...

Nelson and John Cowsill have made up via Facebook. That's good. They also took shots at the Smiley Smile board. They seem to both think that this board is populated by drama queens that are looking for a soap opera. For some reason. 

Thank you. I wasn't expecting this in the least. Although Jason and I have extremely different views on, well, just about everything,  i do consider him a friend and have a great deal of respect .

There will be a new mod at some point. Jonas hasnt be on in ages, and it's a lot of work for two people. Rest assured that the decision will be made only after careful consideration.

Considering some members here took potshots at both of them, they're certainly entitled to feel that way.

I'm glad they patched things up. From every account i know of both are pretty swell guys in addition to being outstanding musicians.

They've certainly got that right.

oh the irony!  :o

We're not the ones posting childish rants on Facebook

They're the drama queens, not us

Exactly.^^

So there weren't just calls for justice regarding resignations of mods, or incessant whining about who's trolling which threads, or who's beating down whose opinions, etc.? Just because the pot calls the kettle black, it doesn't mean the kettle is any less black.

There's never been anybody named jesus that ever said anything like that

 :lol :lol
Ahh Ontor, we've missed you

For the record I would love to see a (civilized) Sandbox thread about Biblical historicity / Christian history / Biblical criticism.

Wow. I just got home from work...a lot of reading to do. So, who is winning? The Mike Love-endorsed John Stamos or the Brian Wilson non-endorsed John Stamos? What's the score? I see a moderator went down. Was that worth bonus points?

Do we blame Stamos, Bragg or Coswill for Jason's impeachment

Ontor for President!!!!!  ;D

I, for one, avoid the sandbox like the plague, simply because I can't control myself overt here and say all sorts of stupid shite .... Once again I apologize to everyone there (who certainly gave me a run for my money ;P)  ..... I think it's important to recognize one's weak spots and not exploit them ourselves.

On the Stamosgate situation: this has been asked before, but just WHO the hell was in cahoots with John if not the rest of The Beach Boys? ..... Was some sound guy or tech really gonna risk being chucked off the tour by ruining a moment of sincere tribute to Dennis in order to appease Stamos? .... Even if John had said "Oh, Mike says it's OK" would this person really not ask Brian's people, who were doubtlessly around? .... And if Brian's people said "Sure, why not" then what's there to be angry about?

Just pretend I made it up on my own. The quote still stands on it's own merits no matter who came up with it. ;)

Stamos did sing the song on a Beach Boys album. Right?

Right, but that don't make a lick of difference on this board.

This saddens me, and if word gets back to either musician I hope my comments here make the trip too.

Drama and other assorted nonsense does happen, as it does on any fan community that's an open forum and has daily posts by several hundred members. It also happens in nearly every aspect of life where interaction between different personalities takes place. It happens in nearly every workplace or office where politics, in-fighting, and backstabbing are supposedly frowned upon yet flourish as a daily part of these operations. Someone gets a raise, someone asks for and gets a personal day off that others don't like, someone gets credit for a big deal that others worked harder for, word gets out...watch the feathers fly, and the nonsense makes this place mild in comparison. It happens in bands with three members who don't agree on what the name should be before the band even books a gig or plays an open mic set! I don't see where the expectation is different at a forum which is populated by opinionated musicians, collectors, fans, and any number of people from around the world.

But underneath all the "drama" is probably the most passionate and knowledgeable group of fans you'll find online. Collectors, writers, researchers, musicians, historians...people who get consulted for or even work directly on the "official" projects that come out around this band. Some people who have been involved in the things being discussed or have been there firsthand who can shed light on these topics. People who genuinely listen and enjoy when the band, its members, or even musicians who have worked with them release new music or even give an interview.

Don't discredit the whole thing, and suggest it's all drama and nonsense all the time. Because it's not. It's also not a place where flippant remarks, undue criticism, and a general level of hatred or whatever else rules the day. Again, it's an open forum with open discussions. Things happen. And also what happens is you get a lot of information here which appears nowhere else. You get some pretty deep discussions and analysis of the music and the people making it. You also get more potential audience members for upcoming gigs, albums, books, etc. so it might not be advisable to alienate the group here by suggesting it's all drama. These people are a core audience too.

There are forums, boards, and fan communities where the content is controlled and heavily moderated. If folks want that, there is the Mike Love Facebook page, the Brian Wilson Facebook page, other Beach Boys boards, and the like. Maybe they're not quite the drama and criticism that can happen here, but they're also pretty weak on content, in my opinion.

For what it's worth, those kinds of places aren't there for open-forum type discussion, that's not their purpose. At the same time they could use some of us who are labeled the drama queens and soap opera actors to make sure photos get labeled correctly, so a backstage photo from 1965 isn't tagged as 1967, and all kinds of little bits of info that a lot of us here could fix before it even gets sent out or published.

But if a place where reading a few hundred fans posting messages like "Happy Birthday" or "I can't wait to see the band next week!" is a better option than real people and passionate fans discussing things with each other...replete with some blasts of pure crap, drama, and nonsense on occasion...there are other places to connect with those kinds of fans.

But I wouldn't write this place off, especially how great it can it be when it is at its best. It's one of the best around as far as a community dedicated to a musical artist. My 2 cents.  :)

very well put as usual.


It bothered me as well. If/when I speak to either again, I'll be sure that they know where you and I, along with the more levelheaded among us, stand.

The members only have themselves to blame as to how they are looked at by the musicians they admire. Only the members here can change that perception, and not through laying down restrictions. Best practice; think before you post.

Great post, Guitarfool

When there is a new album out, or a fresh tour on, there is no board more essential in all of BB/BW fandom. The level of knowledge and sheer erudition is astonishing. When not much is happening, things can get rocky. There's nothing else to do but squabble or leap on tiny bits of news. Which can be fun, but most definitely not to all tastes.

Yeah...past two months have been pretty bumpy - post MiC was very fun, and I'm sure post new BW album with be similar.

Well said.

$$ Plus we buy their CDs, concert tickets, t-shirts, etc ,etc.

Hope they dont forget that part of the symbiotic relationship of  R&R dudes and their fans.  :P

Bummer. Wish I could say I was going to be there. Probably would have gone if Jardine was there.

I considered trying Mike's show after seeing how good Totten and Cowsill were. But between finances and knowing how less of an article it is when it isn't C50, I'm still passing.

Would like to see the Brian/Al Modesto show, but it's just too freaking far. Hopefully they'll be together hitting the Bay Area.

I hope this post doesn't get buried, but I have a thought on the whole Stamos thing.

I know people get on Mike about making a mockery of The Beach Boys by including Stamos and whatnot. But I think really what it is, is that Mike, as much as he loves The Beach Boys, thinks that they are anachronistic and uncool. And I'm pretty sure that he might truly believe in his heart that mentioning John Stamos' name makes people think of The Beach Boys as more "hip" and "current". Now, obviously he's totally misguided in this belief, just as he was misguided into thinking that we needed a holiday themed "Kokomo" sequel in the first decade of this century.

But anyways, I think that the Stamos thing plays into the same element that makes Mike mention all the songs he co-wrote all the time. He, for some reason, needs to re-validate his accomplishments and re-prove his relevancy to today's times. And because of his insecurities, we get interviews constantly repeating what he co-wrote, and shows filled with more mentions of John Stamos than Dennis Wilson.

But yeah, basically to sum it up, I think Mike unfortunately doesn't give The Beach Boys enough credit. Because something like "Surfin' Safari" is 1000 times cooler than John Stamos, despite Mike's feeling that it's dorky.

Hands up who on here posted a drunken rant about a nothing incident from over two years ago?

I hope the drama queens labelling us "drama queens" appreciate we're also "drama queens who buy music and keep the drama queens in work".  Hey ho…

You know, that would be interesting. I'm studying that stuff. But I fear my english isn't good enough for scholarly discussions...  :-\

Something I'd love to see as well, but any initial civility would likely soon evaporate. Religious debate has a habit of doing that.

Yes, I agree but Stamos net worth is 40 million. I seriously doubt hes worried over the possibility fans stop buying product.

Latest member: nelson

Who could that be  :lol

Andrew Hickey and John Cowsill are the only ones responsible for the `drama queen` stuff though...

I hope it isn't a poseur.  

Only among, the most gifted percussionists on the planet.   ;)

And despite this foolish dust-up, he and Cowsill (equally gifted) worked with incredible synergy during C50!  

IMHO there is always room for someone who enhanced the timeliness of the music for a new generation, controversial or not. (Stamos) Anyone who promotes BB/BB work is A-OK in my book. It was a long climb back from the mid to late 1960's. Anyone and everyone who helped in any way re-gain appreciation for the musical talent that was rejected for a while, gets an A from me!

If it is really Mr. Bragg (not a poseur) many welcomes to this forum.  

Love your work!  :woot

The new member of this forum - 'Nelson'  - could be Stamos using an alias.

But if it is the Nelson - I love your work too.

Nelson Muntz. :)

Nelson Wilbury?  ;D

(http://images2.fanpop.com/images/polls/220000/220371_1239654608750_full.jpg)

Willie Nelson?

Nelson Mandela!

Just a note...yes WE ALL, that means SS boarders and US the guys who play the music we all love, are ALL drama contenders... But I didn't post my stuff here. Someone else did...and yes if ya don't want it to be seen don't write it. So Nicko1234 no fair pointing the finger ;)...there are always three pointing back at you...I love reading the board here and yeah some of it gets blown over board...just like real life...And I only meant a handful of posters who can't wait to stir things up...sh*t there are some very cool people here, and we all take turns in that handful of culprits... me included! hahahaha so lets just all get along... Love the passion...and Stamos is my friend and all those who don't like him are entitled to that view...But There's not many people I don't like who I don't know on a personal level...just saying...anyway I do love coming here for good or bad...it's like a continuous soap opera..What will happen tomorrow when Joan says to John....
 >:D

Thanks for chiming in on this here platform. We respect (if not love) all you guys in the extended BBs family/apparatus and are thankful for the music being kept alive. Dito to what you said about soap operas. What would life be without them.

Interesting points---I think there is some of that involved.

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2428wb7.jpg)

Right there is why mainstream 80's rock sucked a fat one.

 :lol

My ears are burning.....

Please make another reunion happen  ;D

Hi John - I still Groove to "The Rain the Park and Other Things"  ;)

I wish all these idols of ours could harmonise from the same hymn sheet, on the same stage…

Most of the over-the-top sh*t only happens while we're twiddling our fingers waiting for the next dose of new music. We need our fix from time to time :D

You know what worries me? Things usually reach true fever pitch the two weeks before a new release. And we don't even have a release date for the new BW album or movie yet! We might be in for some apocalyptic meltdowns...

I have my bunker with BBs music all ready for that.... :lol :lol :lol

 :-D

A classy response.

I would like to give one final mention, at the risk of being uber-repetitive, that there is a big distinction between not preferring John Stamos as a prominent musical component to the BB's, versus disliking him personally.

As Mr. Cowsill alludes to, it's pretty difficult to dislike someone on a personal level without knowing them.

I can't speak for everybody, but many of the folks who have professed a preference for Stamos to say on the sidelines don't dislike him personally.

Indeed, I truly believe he's a huge BB fan. There's no doubt. He also seems like a nice guy. He's probably a blast to hang out with. I think the same can be said for many folks out there. But that's different than being musically involved.

I think when Stamos intro'ed the show at, I believe it was New Orleans, on the 50th tour, that was a great role for him to fill. A well-known guy who is a big fan.

I will join any others who would love for John Cowsill, or any other folks who could possibly sway things, to convince any and all involved to revive the "reunion" lineup.

If I could meet John Cowsill in person, I would tell him what he probably already knows: Even some of the most curmudgeonly, cranky, jaded Beach Boys fans agree that you took part in the best Beach Boys tour since their heyday of touring in the early-mid 70's. I will go further and say it was one of the best concerts I've ever seen. EVER. I can only guess you would probably play drums again for that lineup in a heart beat if the chance arose. I sure hope it does. We're all getting older......

I think there's a good chance we'll see the album this year. But the film is debuting at one film festival in September, and the best guess is that part of that process involves courting potential distributors. So most of us could well not even have a chance to see this film in a theater, let alone at home, until next year.

Don't forget Brian's book

There`s plenty of people on this board who seem to manage it...  ;)

Well... since this seems to be a pissing contest, How does she look.... say.... compared to Rebecca Romain Stamos?

(http://www.stud-center.com/wallpaper/rebecca-romijn-stamos/rebecca-romijn-stamos-114106.jpg)

I’m not sure how applicable this is, as she divorced Stamos nine years ago and no longer uses his name....

I watched Guardians of the Galaxy last night and in it they crack a joke about John Stamos.

"I come from a planet of rogues/mercenaries.. Bonny & Clyde, [someone else]... John Stamos.." - something like that, right? :-D

Yup, I think the other name was Billy The Kid. Who said John Stamos wasn't still relevant in 2014?

Mike Love is not delusional at all… I recently attended my first John Stamos concert on 7-13-14 in Augusta, GA.  The girls were going apeshit over Stamos.  It took nothing away from the show when they stopped and John mockingly stood atop the drum kit.  It was silly, but it did not hurt / detract the musical performance in any way whatsoever.  In fact, it substantiates the idea that Stamos' presence on stage validates the thought that he does make the current touring band a bit "more hip" to the last two generations of the female fan demographic.  How many female posters do we have here on the Smiley Smile message board that have chimed in with disgust over this debate?  You can count them on one hand.  (I think…since many here use handles as opposed to their real names.)

When John Stamos came out front to sing "Forever" (on 7-13-14, w/ guitar in hand) it felt a little flaky, but not because he was doing some GREAT injustice to The Beach Boys or Dennis Wilson…it was because — if you really look — he is somewhat uncomfortable taking the front of the stage.  He has the most fun in the back (playing the drums) and rocking out.

Anyone who knows me, knows that I am an adamant supporter of ALL things Dennis Wilson.  But don't confuse current Beach Boys shows with Dennis' musical legacy…they are two completely different things.  Carl Wilson was very selective of his association with the recordings the group did in later years ("Wipe Out" for example), but he absolutely got behind John Stamos and supported the making of the music video for "Forever."

I think we male fans — I am including myself here — have a hard time wrapping our minds around the inclusion of "Forever" on the 'Summer In Paradise' album because it was promoted as a song (on "Full House") by a group called Jessie & The Rippers, which is a fictional TV show group… Right?  So when the song shows up on a Beach Boys CD, it is a bit ODD.  It doesn't suck…it isn't horrible…it simply did not fit on the album.

As for John Stamos the person.  Yeah, there's a bit of Hollywood about him (when I was around him that night), but isn't that to be expected?  How can he NOT be that guy?  EVERYONE wanted a picture with him.

As for his character…
My 12.5 year old son Ethan has Down syndrome.  His favorite Beach Boys' album is 'That's Why God Made The Radio,' and he asks me all the time about meeting Mike Love, Bruce Johnston, Al Jardine, Brian Wilson, etc.  The Augusta, GA show was Ethan's VERY 1st Beach Boys concert.  You know what?  HE LOVED IT!  The group invited him up on stage to sing "Barbara Ann," which he thoroughly loved.  Here's what happened though…  I thought that "Barbara Ann" was going to be one of the encore songs, but it wasn't.  The group started right into it right after "Help Me Rhonda" (in the middle of the 2nd set).  I grabbed Ethan and we were thankfully not far from back stage (to get Ethan to the stage).  Stamos was front and center (surrounded by a stage FULL of gawking girls).  When he saw Ethan taking the stage (late) he came to back and took Ethan's hand and brought him right up front with him.  I was smiling ear to ear.  John then made it a point to pull the microphone down and sing right along with Ethan (ignoring all the females).

The entire group treated Ethan like one of the gang.  You could argue that is because I do ESQ…that's probably true.  Is there something wrong with like-minded people being good to one another?  No.

Before the show Ethan had dinner with John, and after the show, John gave Ethan his drum sticks, Bruce gave him the setlist, and the guys all got their pictures with him (during intermission), and even gave him a VIP laminate (for good keeping).

That's called good will.

Mike Love, Bruce Johnston, Jeffrey Foskett, Randell Kirsch, John Cowsill, Tim Bonhomme, Scott Totten and their friend John Stamos are CLASS ACTS.  They changed my son's life that day, and as a father taking his son to his first "Beach Boys show," I can tell you firsthand that the music of The Beach Boys is alive and well.  Why did I share this VERY personal experience here?  Because this thread is about John Stamos performing with the Beach Boys.  I know one 12.5 year old boy who didn't mind one bit.

 “I come from a planet of outlaws. Billy the Kid. Bonnie and Clyde. John Stamos.”

Thanks for sharing that. :)

I was fortunate to see the C50 show 4 times in 2012 and I was grateful that Stamos had no involvement in any of them, which was particularly surprising since two of them were at the Hollywood Bowl and Irvine. I work at a law firm and every time I told a young female associate or law clerk that summer that I was going to see the Beach Boys the first thing that came out their mouth was, "ooh, is John Stamos going to be there?" Since 1994, I have met John Stamos 2 times backstage at Beach Boys shows and run across him randomly 3 other times--once at Disneyland, once at Universal Studios and once at the Roxy Theater for Al Jardine's solo show in 2012. I have witnessed how he has interacted with Beach Boys fans and others, albeit briefly, on those occasions.  I can tell you that from what I have witnessed he appears to be a genuinely nice guy. Oh yeah--and my wife loves him.

I honestly can't even remember if Stamos was at the C50 show I saw. That's how little it matters in the end.....

That said, "Bruce Boys" gigs are more of a party than the C50 shows (which were a party indeed, but in a different way) ..... so I can't see how he harms such events. C'mon! He's a long long longtime fan! Why complain? He's one of us!

I'd much rather have him harmlessly helping out than some boring, predictable roster of flavor of the month "special guests" like the Stones do.

I love that story ESQ. Stamos seems like a legit good guy. Nelson's a great guy too (met him a few times along w/ the rest of the band) but I don't think he sabotaged anything.

Stamos just seems happy to be there and face it, those Full House appearances really helped the Beach Boys get to a new audience as cringe-worthy as their image/new tunes were in the 80s...Kokomo was a huge hit and arguably their most famous at this point w/ those born in the 80s/90s.

I never got the "Stamos hate". Look at this way, he's a fan and he's Mary Sue-ing on behalf of the fans who wish they could get up there and sing along with the boys.
He was also a very public fan at a time when being a fan of the Beach Boys was tantamount to being a Pat Boone fan...long before every Indie Rock act out there started (dubiously) claiming Brian Wilson as an influence to up their hipster cred.
I get it. He's the David Cassidy of his generation. So what?
I just don't see what the big deal is and why some fans are shaking their fists in rage at the mere sight of him. He's harmless and, as evidenced by David's story, a decent guy.

Jimmy Kimmel tonight is a repeat,  and Stamos was just on. In it, he said that playing with the Beach Boys, more than anything else, was the highlight of his life.

.

.

Like I said before, most of us guys are just jealous 'cause Stamos gets more p***y than we do.

I've met John a couple of times backstage, and he is a really down to earth guy. Whoever he is talking to gets his full attention. He even gave my buddy his drum sticks.

I have no doubt whatsoever that John Stamos is a lovely guy. What he did for the guy in the wheelchair, and Ethan, proves that to me. I just wish he wasn't up there, trying too hard to be Dennis.

I know next to nothing about John Stamos. No doubt he is a fan, maybe he is a nice guy. He is good looking. None of these things make him Dennis Wilson. There are quite a few Dennis wannabes out there. Real Dennis fans want to hear Dennis, not try to be Dennis. And I am a female fan.

I don't know why one would want to be Dennis Wilson. In an effort to cope with his emotional pains, he drank and drugged himself to death (in a way). Doesn't sound like a lot of fun. If I had to choose between being Dennis Wilson and being John Stamos, I'd choose being John Stamos.

I've never watched his TV show so often mentioned on this board, so I have next to no opinion on him.

Was Dennis ever as considerate of special needs fans as John Stamos is?

It was a different time but I think he would have if he was still alive today. So many people have said he would give the shirt off his back to someone who needed it shows just the kind of person he was IMO.

I've seen pictures of Dennis with special needs fans - don't know how big a part of his life this was or how it compares to what John Stamos has done but I've heard he was kind to people. But anyway, I'm not criticising John Stamos as a human being  - that isn't the subject of this thread.

I love that quote from Stebbins or Roach (can't remember :-\) where he says that Dennis would have given the shirt off his back - if he had worn one. ;D


Exactly.

Not once have I ever seen him like that. He doesn't have to be Dennis. He does just fine being John Stamos.

Gosh....THANK YOU ANDREW! And this is simply it. I agree. I'm sure Stamos is awesome. I've never really doubted it. But I don't think it means I'm a heartless asshole just because I don't want him on the stage with ANY incarnation of my favorite group. Sorry. I don't think that means I don't respect what he has done for the less fortunate. I think it's awesome what he's done. But that doesn't mean that I think he should be strutting across The Beach Boys stage. Sorry.

I`ve no idea whether Stamos wants to be Dennis Wilson or not but his manner on stage and even his style of drumming seems very different. I can understand people thinking he is too much on Be True to Your School (arguably the nadir of a M&B show) but the same could be said to some extent for Kowalski who was also given a drum solo for this song.

Would Dennis want to punch Stamos if he were alive today? A fun who covered one of his songs and brought it to millions of people... If he did want to punch him then that wouldn`t say much for Dennis really.

I think the clips from recent M&B shows that are in other threads show how the audience feels anyway. They clearly want Stamos there by a landslide margin...

I think John Stamos is probably a good guy. I also think he's a passable singer and musician. 99% of the fans don't even notice his technical shortcomings anyway. But what I really like about John Stamos is that he's a huge Beach Boys' fan and not many celebrities can/will claim that. Come on, admit it. We like when the Beach Boys merely get mentioned by celebrities, musicians, politicians, sports figures, or....anybody! And, I think John Stamos has personally and individually attracted thousands (millions?) of fans to The Beach Boys and specifically Dennis Wilson over the last 30 years. I don't take that lightly. I can't think of a single person outside The Beach Boys who has come close to achieving that. Not even close.

But none of that is the point as it relates to this thread or the multiple "Stamos threads" that have and will appear on this message board. Even though I like Stamos, I DO ADMIT that some of his onstage behavior rubs me the wrong way. That's not only because it's not my personal style, but it's mainly because it clashes with The Beach Boys' onstage style. The Beach Boys are boring on stage, and Stamos, through his body language, unfortunately accentuates that. But that's not the point either!

The point is that people on this board relate John Stamos with Mike Love and people on this board don't like Mike Love. In the same vein, John Stamos is not endorsed by Brian Wilson, so consequently, John Stamos will not be endorsed by people on this board. Do you think this 14 page thread is ongoing because of interest in John Stamos? Of course not. Somewhere, underneath all of the rhetoric, is just another Mike Love vs. Brian Wilson argument. I am certain that if Brian Wilson uttered just one word of praise toward John Stamos, this thread wouldn't exist. I've seen the legendary "Hotel Tape", but we really don't know what Brian personally thinks of John Stamos. I don't think I've ever seen/heard Brian mention his name. But I'll go even one step further. If Brian did "like" John Stamos, I can envision a thread actually IN PRAISE OF Stamos. But, Brian hasn't done that, so Stamos is not accepted or recognized for his achievements by many people on this board. Sorry Mike, not on this board.

Andrew -  I think you sort of narrowed the issue.  And the essence of what I consider to be part of the problem.  I think there is a mis-perception that Stamos is "trying too hard to be Dennis."  I do not think he is.  Stamos is and has been giving "tribute" to Dennis' work, whether advancing it via his TV series show work or on daytime or late night TV.

First, more than one in "eternal syndication and distribution," in 20+ languages.  Second, it is sort of late for all this "purism" because some the original vocalists are among the "dearly departed." The Beach Boys and Brian, as a solo have given "tribute" by covering Dennis' (and Carl's work.)

At best, for those who were born post-1983, and who never saw Dennis live, with his ups and downs, are forming opinions based on second hand information, and who may not have ever see Dennis live.  My sense is that Stamos is and has been taking the most positive aspects and helping to memorialize them. Seriously, if he has had a "look" it is more "Elvis-like," than Dennis Wilson.  His Full House show episodes support that.  

And just for the heck of it, I just input Beach Boys in a YouTube search and one song had 7 million hits.  That would be Kokomo.  And John Stamos face is the one captured on the congas.  I'm a fan for nearly 50 years and it doesn't offend me in the least. His support and media exposure to my favorite band helped resurrect their work for, by now, several generations of people.  I have three children who range from 26 to 33, and despite being brainwashed by BB music, now "access their music" more because of John Stamos, than "the originals." And I don't care "how they listen and appreciate" - only that "they do."

When I see the Touring Band, my kids ask if I saw John Stamos.  Not Mike, Bruce, Scott, John (Cowsill) Tim, Christian, Foskett or Randell.  They don't know who the Cowsills are, largely because that they are part of the 1960's and 1970's experience. That is generational, and probably appropriate.  Who they do know - The Stones, The Beatles, and rap, hip hop and what I call contemporary country music.  They found The Fat Boys and Beach Boys video hilarious.

That's like saying, "Jeff Foskett is trying to hard to be Carl Wilson."   ???  Don't we know better than to make these types of comparisons?

From ALL the concert footage I have seen, etc., I have never seen John Stamos TRYING to be anyone (other than himself), which is where I think most of us are having a problem.  As I mentioned in my first post, he seems a bit uncomfortable when he sings "Forever" when he is front and center…and I believe it is because he knows there will NEVER be a day when he fills the void left by Dennis.  He told me as much.  Stamos LOVES THE BEACH BOYS.

AGD, the misconceptions are here:
•  he plays the drums
•  he sings "Forever" on stage
•  he's the one the girls are screaming for

These 3 things are the only thing John Stamos and Dennis Wilson have in common.  Period.  He didn't write "Forever," his drumming style is not the same either. 

If anyone is "filling" in on drums "for Dennis" (on stage), then it is John COWSILL…who (as far as I'm concerned) brings a Dennis Wilson-style primitive / animalistic punch to every show.  Cowsill's raw thumping reminds me a lot of Dennis (in style).  Just close your eyes (if you go) to an upcoming show.  If Stamos is there, you won't even know it.   
 
It seems to me that the Stamos issue is more about what those on the outside perceive versus the reality of what is really happening on stage. 

There is nothing that can fill the void (not even video tributes) for Dennis and Carl Wilson.  The videos — at the very least — provide the appropriate reminder of their contributions to the group's catalogue and that their spirit endures in the music.

I think EVERYONE here would be shocked if you had a chance to sit down with John Stamos to discuss the Beach Boys catalogue, and got to pick his brain about his love for the group's music (favorite album, etc.).  Like all of us, it's deep.

I bet if we asked him he would feel he is honoring the spirit of Dennis. Mileage may vary as to whether he was successful if he were.

He would probably be uncomfortable with this statement.  Stamos loves the song "Forever."  He hopes he is doing justice to the song when he performs it…that's about it.

Stamos may or may not be a nice guy. It's great to hear that he's good to fans.

But that doesn't affect the central point. He is a distraction and has no place onstage.

Just like the cheerleaders.

I have said it before and will say it again -- any goodwill he generates among some part of the public is outweighed by the continuing damage he does  to the brand.

I can't tell you the number of people who have made cracks about Stamos when I mention the Beach Boys. They don't talk about the mastery of Pet Sounds or the artistry if Good Vibrations or the fractured whimsy of Love You. They make jokes about a 50-year-old sitcom actor.

It's great that he's a fan. It's great he wants to bring people to the music. But that doesn't mean you crash the show and play rock star yourself. Even if the band asks you.

It's not wish fulfillment. It's destroying something he purports to love.

If anyone here ever wonders why we don't get cool archival releases, if anyone here ever wonders why we don't get more respect among music fans, if anyone ever wonders why you can't going to a music store and buy actual Beach Boys albums, if anyone wonders why Mike has the terrible reputation he does -- just look at Stamos.

He is absolutely emblematic of a band that does not take itself or its music or its fans or its legacy at all seriously. And if the band doesn't care about these things, other folks won't either.

Right.

(http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Zooey-Deschanel-Sad-Agreement.gif)

I will say this again, as I have said many many times before in here, he will not, nor does he presently pollute the brand. The Beach Boys will not be remembered for concerts, least the ones that are not recorded or released in the catalog. They will be remembered for all of their recorded output, especially for the ones that they are currently remembered for; their early to mid-60s albums. For everyone like you who has a problem with Stamos on stage, their is least one if not more who could give two-shits whether he is there or not. This place has an inflated view what will and will not affect their legacy. Stamos on stage is a blip compared to all of the other things they will be judged on. If nothing else, the fracture that occurred after Carl's death will hold more weight against them than anything Stamos has done performing with them.

Mike seems to enjoy having him around so that's all it comes down to really.

EXACTLY.

If the people you are talking to are making cracks about Stamos instead of the catalogue that speaks directly to their knowledge of the group, which must be minimal.   If they are well-versed in The Beach Boys catalogue and they choose to make cracks about John Stamos instead of discussing the music, then that is more of a reflection of those individuals and their inability to carry on an intellectual conversation about the music.  Are you suggesting that The Beach Boys name is surrounded in murkiness because of John Stamos?  The Beach Boys musical legacy has ZERO to do with John Stamos.  I would be genuinely surprised if that many casual fans are even aware that he is on the "Summer In Paradise" album…or that the album even exists.  drbeachboys summed it up well.

Gee, I don't know...  Here's someone on this board that perfectly describes the general public's perception of Stamos and the BBs: 
 

I'm confused about the Dennis comparisons. Stamos is known as a hot dog, correct? It's the fact that he's front and center with an unplugged guitar that bothers everyone so much? And his BTTYS drum solo, and standing up on the bass drum? Playing the drums poorly?

What about that is a Dennis impression? From every live performance I've seen from Dennis, he's understated -- or at least much more understated than Stamos.

I suppose I kind of understand the Dennis comparison, only because he plays drums and sings Forever. But on shows when he sang "Good Timin'" and played guitar, was he trying too hard to be Carl?

Stamos' personality, stage presence and talent is much different than Dennis' and I think he understands that better than anyone.

Has he been arrested yet? Oh. That's right. He didn't kill anybody. He just showed up at a concert and sang when something malfunctioned. I don't think it's that big of a deal. It's not like Dennis was actually there singing.

Can't that be placed squarely on the shoulders of Mike Love?

If you knew anything about Dennis, you wouldn't ask that question. He was a longtime supporter of the Special Olympics, as it was then called.

The Boys rep and legacy was sealed in honor as America's Band long ago and through today and into the foreseeable future and not even decades of public drunkenness, in-fighting, bizarre and illegal behavior on stage and in public, and assorted unsavory crap that the Boys did themselves have changed that.

I don't think the occasional cheerleaders and Stamos are going to suddenly bring it all down or even lower it a notch after it survived the Boys own legacy killing behaviors and choices. Let's get real. (finger snaps in Z formation)

Of course! Good will toward the guy who's running the primary Beach Boys fanzine in the world and promoting their careers. It's no wonder you and your son got the red carpet treatment.

Uncalled for, Mikey.

"The entire group treated Ethan like one of the gang.  You could argue that is because I do ESQ…and that's probably true.  So what?  Is there something wrong with like-minded people being good to one another?  No."

Mikie only reiterated my previous statement.  Maybe, because he said it he felt more enabled to make it his stance for the sake of argument.

John Stamos has been playing with the Beach Boys for nearly thirty years. Longer than some of the fans here have been fans of the band, and before some were even born yet. It's not like most of the people complaining are the ones buying tickets to see Mike and Bruce, so I don't know what the problem is.

29. First appearance July 4, 1985  in Philadelphia. But I get your point

Didn't mean anything negative about it at all. It's just a fact. If I were there, they wouldn't give me the time of day, even though I've supported the band for 44 years. They aren't dumb; they know who David is. It's good will and it probably came from their hearts. They did the right thing. David came away a very happy man, as he should be. He wrote about his great experience here and will probably write about it in ESQ too and people will read it and think how great the Beach Boys are on a personal level.

Watching that YouTube video of Stamos though. He brings the female audience in, but he's really over the top with his on-stage playing/acting. I can see where this non-Beach Boy non-backing musician would piss people off. Especially the hardcore die-hards.

There's always a tension between a band's artistic life and what it has to do to pay the bills and please a large crowd.  The Beach Boys, with its differing personalities and perspectives, and the wildly divergent approaches and output that those manifest, illustrate this more starkly than most bands.  You got your "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times" and you got your "Kokomo" and those are going to resonate with two completely different sets of people.

The ideas that Stamos hurts the brand and that he brings a lot of people through the door are not mutually exclusive, even though they seem to be.  Art and commerce have both played equal roles in keeping the band's music vibrant for 50 years.  The issue will never be resolved, it's baked in the cake of the personalities of the band members and the differing ways the band's music resonates with different personalities.  It's what makes the band's history so frustrating, but also so fascinating.

Isn't 29 nearly 30?

Oh please; is your math really that of a 5 year old?

Apparently, because I wouldn't think to correct someone's "nearly 30" with "29." Seems synonymous to me.

Really now. Is a baby less than ome month old nearly one?
 

No, but it's a matter of scale, too. a baby less than one month old is approximately 1/12th of a 1-year-old, or .08 as much. 29 is 29/30ths, or .97 as much. It isn't just a matter of the span lacking between the two numbers, but the relationship between them in the bigger picture. (In geological time, a thousand years--hell, a million!--is nothing, and we could say "almost.") I think when we're talking about multiple decades, 11 months would certainly be small enough to round up to a "nearly" [bigger number].

Sorry for being off topic. Kind of. Not really, though.

Time for a musical interlude...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_2D4Sganhg

No single appearance by John Stamos will kill the group's career. And no one is saying that.

But a group's reputation and legacy is defined by the choices that the group makes. And the choice to welcome Stamos as an honorary member has reaped a bitter harvest for the band.

It's certainly not their only regrettable decision, or even their main one. Mike has made a bunch of terrible choices over the last few decades, often with Brian's active participation or benign neglect. The cheerleaders being one of them, releases like SIP being another, relentless touring of shoddy venues for no real purpose being yet another.

For me, I would gladly trade any popularity of recognition the group acquired through the likes of Stamos (and Home Improvement, etc.) for a wider understanding of the great work they did -- and continued to do when no one was looking.

And I do not solely blame Mike or John, although both should have known better. Brian has allowed Mike to use the name and keep touring, and has allowed his cousin's vision of the band to predominate. Al went along for too long, and by the time he decided to fight back, he had no leverage left and had alienated the rest of the group. Carl simply surrendered at a certain point and decided to focus on keeping the backing band competent. All of these guys are to blame.

Stamos is the one guy who encapsulates how everything went terribly, terribly wrong for the group in the 1980s. And yes, that decade saw a renewed popularity for the boys -- but it was not a popularity worth having.

Yeah, John even got Brian to appear on "Full House" with the band, that's how bad it got.

Does John Stamos's role as a frequent guest on stage with the band detract from the legacy of the Beach Boys as a serious, artistically important American ensemble? After all, he's a great-looking guy, a celebrity, and an indisputable fan, but he's not as high-caliber a musician as most (or hopefully all) of the people who have been a part of the touring act over the past 50-something years.

No.

Whatever legacy they had through music still exists. The music can't be undone. Anything performed live is on the periphery of the body of work, especially in these decades since their real period of contemporaneous relevance. No 2014 concert undoes the studio or live work of 1964, 1967, or 1971. It's barely a footnote. It's a few minutes of fun between people who have every right to do so.

Second, is protecting the legacy of a pop band really warranted? Does the serious fan's serious concept of a serious band's serious work outweigh the casual fan's enjoyment of a pop band? I'm not sure.

Different art does different things at different times for different people, and the best art more so than the worst. As Adam said a few posts ago, these are different facets of this band: that's just reality. The depth of their brilliance isn't shallowed by the crassness of the commercials, it's just something else. A different angle, a different day, a different idea.

People all have different versions of what the Beach Boys (or any other musicians) should do to best meet their preferences and tastes. There is no shortage of suggestions on this board. But maybe it's best not to worry about it. Maybe legacies would be best not managed at all, but viewed in their natural states as they actually unfolded. That ship has long-since sailed both with this and every other major entertainer, obviously, but it's worth thinking about.

I guess I just don't care whether I like the choices the band makes. I'd rather they did everything I like, of course, but that's clearly impossible. (Besides, if I knew better than them overall, I'd just make better music than them to begin with and circumvent the issue entirely.) I don't care how the public thought about them 25 years ago, 15 years ago, today, or in 25 years. I'm pretty confident their body of work stands on its own whether Stamos sits behind the drums or straps on a guitar or cheeses "Forever" one more time. The legacy is not threatened. It just doesn't matter, aside from annoying some fragments of a very fragmented fan base.

I feel like this is not seeing the forest for the tree. If the band's legacy could be diminished in that way it was diminished by Brian, Dennis, Mike, Carl, Al, and Bruce. Roughly in that order, or some order of your choice. Anything Stamos has done or been can not even dent the legacy tempered by the Boys attempts to ruin it.

Exactly. He wasn't that much on it though, to be fair:

(http://oi57.tinypic.com/35a53qc.jpg)

The Smiley Smile message board: where John Stamos is a bigger villain than Eugene Landy.

Brian had a speaking part on the show, and also appeared onstage in a concert scene, even singing along with Kokomo at one point. He was on as much as the rest of them.

Please. I write enough nonsense on my own. I don't need other people to make up new nonsense to attribute to me.

I stand corrected. It really got bad, then. ;)

I am pretty hardcore, and he doesn't bother me one bit. I see him as helping bring in new fans, especially back in the late 80s and 90's. If I had the chance to play with them every summer, I would and I would likely ham it up too. I've been going to Beach Boys and related shows now for 45 years. I still get very excited before the shows. I can just imagine how I would be up on stage performing. :)

Regardless of the reality of the episode, I'd like to pretend Brian spent the whole time trying to hide behind Al to avoid being seen on camera, with the result a physical comedy gem. Either Brian has to duck or Al needs a taller hat.

Stamos should learn how to play guitar and drums better if he wants to guest with the group. The musicianship and quality of the show take a hit when Mike and John ham it up on stage.

Please explain exactly how bad the drumming is? I've seen him play Be True To Your School many times and I have never heard anything terrible. sh*t, even Dennis used to miss beats and screw up rolls.

I thought his guitar was unplugged. Can we all try to agree on how John Stamos is singlehandedly ruining every facet of the Beach Boys (including their legacy)?

From watching videos with Stamos, the band sounds out of sync and miles behind their sound with Cowsil on drums. John just sounds average at best and the band suffers for it. (IMO)

Go watch the Knebworth 1980 concert or really any show from 1975 onward. Dennis was not perfect by no means. He didn't ruin many/any shows because of a few errors. Stamos usually plays on one or two songs per show. Nothing that will ruin an entire show.

sh*t, Stamos is a hell of a better drummer than Kowalski was since the 90s.

Before long Stamos will be the new Mike, a victim of fan-tacide. Only with gorgeous hair.

I wish having a (minor) celeb who is friends with the band sitting in for the odd one or two songs was the worst thing this group ever did.

This is sheer poppycock.

Nm

Time for a Beach Boys huddle

The post upthread about all the band being complicit in the band's cheesier decisions to varying degrees -- particularly Carl giving up on it -- begs the question...why?

It wasn't just Mike being the dominant and most business-oriented personality in the group, though that's certainly part of it.  It's just that the band had to acquiesce that it was just too uphill of a battle to try to express the band's artistic side from the mid '70s onward.  The band did not begin to be taken seriously artistically by a large number of people until the PET SOUNDS rerelease in the late '80s, with things steadily growing through the '90s to today.  The reason the band could tour such a diverse set list in 2012 is there were finally enough hardcore fans that they could get away with it.  That wasn't the case in years prior.

To paraphrase Carl, "it became obvious what the fans wanted.  Really obvious."

Those who argue that the band could have made sharper decisions during this period that enhanced rather than cheapened their legacy -- no argument here.  But it would have been a much harder road to hoe, with real economic consequences and not much short-term payoff, than most fans realize.  Carl was given his shot in the early '70s and he didn't come up with any hits.  It's really that simple.  In the plastic context of the late '80s, no one was going to be able to get behind that approach again.  Brian got away with it -- barely -- on his solo album, but looked at from a cold hard graft standpoint, that project lost tons of money.  Yes, there might have been a long term payoff over time, but given the short term day to day realities of keeping the band employed and the crew fed, it's not hard to understand why they went for the path of least resistance.  After all, they didn't have the built-in respect of a Who or a Stones.  They were the Beach Boys with an image to work with or against.

Yes, almost exactly 30. I was trying to emphasize how accurate kitty kat  actually was. Guess I just didn't word it right...

Yeah, a popularity not worth having. It has to be all serious and arty and humorless.  The less fans and the less fun, the better!

Speaking of humorless, I recently watched that Beach Boys episode of Full House.

Full house is unfunny, period.

Isn`t it also down to the fact that some bands now simply play longer shows than they did back in the day?

And that's why it was cancelled after just a few episodes.

Awe man, I haven't heard that saying in long, long time. :)

Brian looked like he was having a good time when he was on "Full House." And I'm sure he did.  Just like he had a good time guesting on that laugh riot, "The New Leave It to Beaver."

Just remember Cam, only his/her opinion matters. All else is total bullshit. ;)

It is very hard for me to see how the legacy has suffered at anyone's hands. They have been one of the most revered Pop groups since almost their inception. If they were another kind of band they could have had another kind of legacy but they aren't so they didn't.

can we please stop being raging assholes to one another?

Yes, it's a fact that I had already stated.

I am unsure at this point if my personal experience with my son has a place in ESQ…still undecided.  I enjoy hearing about any facet of the group's career that makes someone happy…that's usually the music.  I consider myself lucky because I love it all.  Everything from "I Get Around, "Little Girl I Once Knew," Cabin-Essence" (my favorite), "Feel Flows," all of Pet Sounds, "All This Is That"…most everything from Smile…Love You album…"Good Timin'," "Lahaina Aloha," the entire That Lucky Old Sun album…and That's Why God Made The Radio…anything by Dennis.

Point is…that's what drives ESQ.  A true love for the music.

  

Which is the Beach Boys?

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/280x200q90/540/wI9Ah3.jpg) (http://imageshack.com/f/f0wI9Ah3j)

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/280x200q90/905/TiI29y.jpg) (http://imageshack.com/f/p5TiI29yj)

Good point. Stamos isn't a Beach Boy and is not even part of the legacy/brand to have an effect on it. Any legacy denigration would be on the actual Boys but even they couldn't ruin the legacy/brand..

As I said previously, I don't think Stamos is going to affect the legacy of the band, one way or the other. That will rise or fall based on the music. Saying Stamos will have some kind of lasting affect is giving him too much credit.  In a few years, when Mike finally shuts down his touring operation, memories of the concerts will fade and few will remember who John Stamos was. They will, however, still know the music.  Harmony, melody, musical innovation and the pure joy of the music will transcend even the cheese. God Only Knows trumps Uncle Jessie every time.  And If family dysfunction, mental illness, drugs, brawling, gold lame turbans and the Maharishi couldn't torpedo the band's legacy, I seriously doubt a second rate sit com actor can. So,  as far as I'm concerned, if the Mike and Bruce show wants to let Stamos play rock idol, so be it. It annoys me, and I'd skip paying good money to see him; but if they're having fun and the soccer moms enjoy screaming for Stamos, I wish them well.

The C50 was another matter, though. That WAS a legacy tour. The whole purpose was to celebrate 50 years of this band, their incredible music and influence on pop culture. It was classy and a huge cut above the Mike and Bruce touring shows. It was an EVENT with a capital E and just really didn't need to include a hotdogging John Stamos.

Dave, I'd put that experience in there for sure. That's a once in a lifetime deal. Down the road your son will see it in writing and appreciate the memory one more time. Essential reading for the fans too, I'd say. I wouldn't mind seeing my experience meeting Brian in one of those issues either!

You lost me on that one.

bwahahahaha

The hate for this guy on stage supersedes all common sense. What can I say?

Well, we've had many archival releases throughout the time Stamos has been associated with The Beach Boys.

All of the archival releases have come since Stamos started appearing with the band in1985.   Coincidence?

I think showing the two shots of the Beach Boys on stage to make a point is misguided…like driving off into a ditch.

Has there ever been an actual live Beach Boys album with Stamos on the cover?  No.  The stripe shirt imagery picture is what was used for the 1964 Concert LP, and the live picture with John has never been a part of any marketed BB product.  The dots don't connect…no matter how hard you try.

Let' shift this conversation back to music.  I suppose that needs to be in another thread.  

One last statement on John Stamos—
He mailed me the 1993 Red Barn rehearsals that resulted in the box set tour (back in 1999).  Why?  One reason…we both LOVE the music.  How's that for cool?

 

Nah, CATP came out in 1972  ( Pet Sounds was from the archives, yes? )
WAY before Stamos. 


Cool is when you mail them to everyone else on this list that wants them! 

Yes.

LOL!

Brian:  Hidey ho, there neighbor.

 I mean, they were Wilson's cousins.  Oops. Wrong sit-com.

So exactly where did I mention hate? I say enough stuff that people can pick on, why make up new stuff?

I second that.

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3866/14791281506_bca9758376_b.jpg)

:lol :lol :lol

Ontor is king! :lol

As a fan, Stamos being there just makes me feel awkward and I find it embarrassing, just as the cheerleaders did, just as when they have  girls dance on stage to Barbara Ann and Scott plays the guitar over one of them now.  But I realize for others they enjoy him there and those things so that's fine. I'm not going to tell anyone how to be a fan.

It is hard for me to believe however that John Stamos was all about promoting Dennis and doing in something in tribute to Dennis by doing Forever.  I say this because at no point on that show, or in the video, or did he OR the group ever say it was a Dennis song, it's dedicated to Dennis or anything. In fact, viewers are led to believe STAMOS WROTE THE SONG repeatedly on the show. I have had to constantly explain this to people that John Stamos did not write that song. You pay tribute to someone by noting it somehow! That was wrong.  He and the group ( especially Carl)  deserve criticism for that. Now they mention Dennis, because it's cool to be a Dennis fan, post Jon's book, post POB rerelease etc. For this reason, Stamos will not get my personal respect.

Hate is a strong word. You dislike Stamos ON STAGE. Just in case you didn't get it the first time around. I didn't mean personally. Now, I think I'm done with this thread. Like most threads in here, nobody's mind is changed no matter what is said on either side of the debate. It's just another beat a dead horse thread. Goodnight, and sleep tight. :)

Might want to rewatch those episodes: http://youtu.be/_b-cdIjmv-M?t=2m11s (http://youtu.be/_b-cdIjmv-M?t=2m11s)

For the anti-Stamos crowd:

I think he's been reading this thread or has heard about it. I also think because of it, he's upped his game a little. Kinda like........keep talkin' sh*t about me but it doesn't mean anything to me or the band. I don't see much wrong with him in this clip in sync with Cowsill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m25N1d_q830&feature=youtube_gdata

I should have been here last night. David Marks was a surprise guest (damn!) and I'm a little surprised Stamos was there too. Looks like it was a good Mike & Bruce show. Looks like Bruce's keyboard has been moved more over to the front of the stage and he's more active. Check out his version of God Only Knows. Bruce is earning his keep! And Cowsill up front singing Rhonda.

Really? Not according the actual dialogue from the show.

http://youtu.be/Zt1whEyVGKE

If I am in the role of bad-guy brianista, so be it.  ;)

I don't think Brianistas are the bad guys at all, unlike most people here. However hating on Stamos is almost too easy. He isn't the cause of the brand's tackiness but he is seen (unfairly or not, YMMV) as it's symbol.

Well, you're quoting me directly and claiming there's hatred of Stamos. And for what it's worth, I don't see anyone here hating the guy. I see there being a few of us who don't think he should be onstage with the group.

As for the comment about archival releases, I apologize for somehow thinking that the popular perception of a group somehow affects what a record label releases. Wherever could I have gotten such a silly idea? I also shouldn't have believed that a group's perception of itself would somehow affect what it's interested in releasing, or the labels it chooses to release it on.

The fact is, the Pet Sounds and Smile boxes were about Brian's legend and the popular music press. They were prestige projects.

The '93 and '13 boxed sets were career-spanners that included the hits.

What are we left with? A couple of releases that were lousily promoted and sold poorly. Any other artist of the group's stature from the 60s has two-disc (or three- or four-disc) sets of their classic albums by now, collected into deluxe boxed sets and the like. The shoddy treatment of the catalogue is directly related to how the band is perceived by the public. And don't go telling me it's just about Capitol. The BBs own their stuff past a certain point and could choose to release every piece of tape they want. But even they don't. They choose not to respect themselves, and they choose not to respect their work.

And as I've said -- and as Andy said above, much more pithily -- Stamos isn't the cause of this. Not even remotely. But he's its most visible symbol.

Well I stand corrected on the fact his character says he didn't write it, my apologies. HOWEVER it is not clearly mentioned it was ever actually a BB song they recorded,Bruce just says you can have it ( apparently Bruce controls all rights at BRI)  and there still isn't  anything about Dennis Wilson there.

I'm trying to figure out who these '60s bands are with double or triple or quadruple releases of single albums, in deluxe box sets, are. The Kinks -- and, the Kinks? Because that certainly isn't true of the Beatles. All single disc release only, which took decades to remaster. Oh, sure, they were initially released in one boxed set, but you could still get the single discs, and no extra material. The Beatles outtakes have only been officially released once, on the Anthology sets, and you know there are hours of tapes that have never been released. The Rolling Stones? A few albums have boxed sets, but not all.   Most are still the original single disc releases. But considering the Beatles are most closely matched in terms of type of material and being of the same label, I don't think the Beach Boys have been treated in an inferior fashion to the Beatles. They have had all their albums remastered, twice, and released, twice, which is one more remastering than the Beatles had. How many times has "Pet Sounds" been remastered and released? I have at least three different CD copies of it (not including the boxed set), including one with a fuzzy cover, and one that was done after the fuzzy cover. There has been multiple Beach Boys boxed sets done, including MIC (which has a substantial amount of unreleased material), The Pet Sounds Sessions, The Smile Sessions, and the four disc boxed set that included the first official releases of some of the Smile material, not just the greatest hit. There's "Made in Hawthorne" and "Endless Harmony" sets.  The Beach Boys catalog has been treated with as much or more respect by EMI/Capitol than they have treated the Beatles. As for any additional unreleased material, that's not just Mike Love's call, but also Al Jardine, Brian Wilson, and the estate of Carl Wilson's decision to make.  So, you can't blame it on the touring Beach Boys, because they're represented by only one vote.

The Kinks, the Who, the Monkees.

King Crimson, the Mothers of Invention, and the Velvet Underground.

None of them are the Beatles.  The Beatles are many times bigger than any of those acts, and they haven't done it. What's wrong with them?

And it still doesn't make it understandable why John Stamos has anything to do with it. Or why Al Jardine, Carl Wilson's family, and Brian Wilson haven't banded together to release all those oh-so-important unreleased tracks. People get angry over the weirdest targets.

Jethro Tull's back catalogue is being reworked in deluxe packages as is Led Zeppelin's.

Let's not forget either that when the two-fers originally did the rounds they were regarded as ground-breaking and the value represented by two albums plus bonus tracks in each package was welcomed.

It might seem we're being short-changed nowadays by comparison with other old acts but that wasn't always the case.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the Beatles.


Well, that's weird because you're the one that somehow thinks it has something to do with John Stamos:

Nah, Stamos isn`t a symbol of this at all. He`s not connected to it in any way shape or form.

After slogging thru 18 pages of this, I feel compelled to add my 2 centavos worth.

Dislike of Stamos and/or his years of professing his love for the music of the Beach Boys baffles me.  In a number of cases I'm thinking maybe it's jealousy - guys thinking, "Man, why can't I be up there on stage doing what Stamos is doing?"

So in John Stamos we have a well known and very personable actor, with tremendous appeal to females, who has given the Beach Boys a huge amount of exposure to younger fans, and who loves the band to the extent that he's said playing with the Beach Boys has been the highlight of his career, and some people are bitching about it?

As a long time fan of the Beach Boys who has great appreciation for much of their more esoteric stuff, and who has seen the band and it's offshoots in concert for almost 48 years, I have absolutely no issue with John Stamos appearing with the touring Beach Boys, both today's Mike & Bruce version and the Carl, Mike, Al, and Bruce version prior to that.  It's not like he's on stage for the entire concert, and I'd say Stamos' appearance at those concerts adds to the overall sense of fun and enjoyment of the show for the majority of fans there.  For the C50 shows, though, I'd say having Stamos playing with the reunited band was a mistake, and I'm glad he was no longer onstage at the three C50 shows I saw.  It woulda been fine if he introduced the band, but it was so cool to have Brian, Mike, Al, David, and Bruce reunited and all playing together again that, from my point of view, also having Stamos on stage for those historic concerts would have been an distraction.

As I've stated a number of times previously on this board, Dennis' Forever has been my favorite Beach Boys song since the day I first heard it on Sunflower almost 44 years ago.  John Stamos has been responsible for exposing Dennis' song to countless new fans, and many have become familiar with and purchased Dennis and the Beach Boys original recording of Forever as a result of their initial exposure to the song via John Stamos, either thru watching Full House (and it countless reruns) or hearing Stamos sing it at Mike and Bruce shows.  And he has mentioned "the great Dennis Wilson" every time I have heard him sing it.

"What are we left with? A couple of releases that were lousily promoted and sold poorly. Any other artist of the group's stature from the 60s has two-disc (or three- or four-disc) sets of their classic albums by now, collected into deluxe boxed sets and the like. The shoddy treatment of the catalogue is directly related to how the band is perceived by the public. And don't go telling me it's just about Capitol. The BBs own their stuff past a certain point and could choose to release every piece of tape they want. But even they don't. They choose not to respect themselves, and they choose not to respect their work."

To drive the point home, I'd like to buy a copy of the Complete Friends Outakes from Beach Boys Central

Oh wait, I can't.

I love the "Classmates to Spouses" article feat. Mr. & Mrs. Johnston. :-D

How?

It is utterly ludicrous.

Mike Love, the man who lets Stamos play with them, was reportedly the most vocal in getting unreleased Dennis stuff on MIC. The above comments just fall flat when examined.

Again, how?

I'm glad that Mike did press for having unreleased Dennis songs on the MIC album. Mike's relationship with Dennis wasn't always good and so perhaps he was trying to make up for that. But whatever Mike's reasons, it benefitted Dennis' fans. However this fact is a totally separate issue to having John Stamos on stage with the Beach Boys.  Personal opinion but guest celebrities based just on looks and their being fans seems to trivialise a concert. Unless the celebrity can actually improve upon the band's performance or add something substantial it's just cosmetic.

I wouldn't like Brian introducing celebrities to his show just based on fame and looks either. IMO it cheapens a show - the people on stage should be there because of their musical excellence and relevance to the band.  I've heard John Stamos - his voice is OK but it doesn't sound particularly like the typical Beach Boys' vocals. Both bands have members who could sound as good or better.

What this thread looks like to any 'normal' human being stumbling across it:

(http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs11/f/2006/229/b/b/johnstamos.gif)

"I always wanted to be Dennis Wilson."
- John Stamos, actor

http://www.bignoisenow.com/billyhinsche.html



Somewhere there's an interview with Mike and he also says that Stamos was wanting to be Dennis and also planned to play Dennis in the "An american family" series.
Just for completeness.

Because the Beach Boys releases are entirely symbiotic between the record label, the group and the record buying public. That`s been the case since the 60s.

So no one agrees that the legacy/brand has apparently achieved a lofty level long ago that even the decades of public depravities of the Boys themselves hasn't been able to impugn?

I more or less would agree with that, with legacy and brand dually defined as commercial success and as artistic success. The public has waxed and waned in both cases over the years, but generally speaking, they have been commercially successful (be it with new releases or best-ofs and re-releases) since the early '60s, and they have been considered artistic successes (be it with new releases or rediscovery/re-evaluation of previously released material) since the mid-60s. They are still wildly successful by any reasonable measure, and thus yes, by definition, they were able to overcome their own assorted lunacies and drama. The troubles and squabbles typically get mentioned, but it isn't ever as a sad story, but rather as something that has been overcome, or that is a minor facet of the big picture.

So the thread looks like we would like to execute Stamos.

Sorry, I dont hardly agree.

Bravo. Well Worded.

I will hopefully agree and maybe we wont be labeled as "haters"

I would prefer to agree with the above. Of course the Beach Boys have been successful for many years but the current incarnation of the band is successful as a touring outfit playing mainly old hits. It's popular but the band hardly present themselves 'seriously' IMO.

And that statement of Wirestone, in my opinion is beyond absurd.  MIC is as serious as it gets and in my view the absolute jewel in their creative crown.  That is the legacy alongside Pet Sounds Sessions, Smile Sessions, and the circa 1993 box set. 

MIC, especially, is pretty Dennis and Carl "heavy" with lead vocals.  What better tribute to both of them? MIC is the real deal.

The Touring Band have made a tough job (traveling, being jet lagged, etc.)look easy because they have mastered "keeping it light" while performing 40 plus songs as an average.  The shows are fun, and engaging every one, including those who were "under included." And after a 30 year association with the Touring Band, Stamos hardly could muddy the waters if he wanted to.

But that said, that "I wanted to be Dennis Wilson" comment is interesting.  I doubt he meant having to bear all the inner turmoil that Dennis suffered, which appears to have driven his need to "self-medicate."  Or be carried off the stage, blind drunk. (Yes, I saw that. I'm sorry to say that I did, and it still bothers me to even think about it.)

But contrasted to that, was the sober Dennis who tossed his drumsticks out to screaming teenaged girls.  And that brazenly bad boy attitude, sweaty flying hair with girls throwing their phone numbers onstage to him as the other side of the coin. And the live audience going nuts when he came out front to do a lead.

That high-functioning, viscerally-creative Dennis or capturing that free and creative spirit, that essentially "self-taught" guy that Dennis was, is certainly one to aspire to be. Stamos apparently is able to see "only the best" of Dennis and perhaps desires to "emulate" that. It is doubtful that he would wish to be smite with the disabling addiction.  Stamos took that good aspect and gave it wings when he covered "Forever." Not one time, have I ever heard him say that he (Stamos) wrote it.

And still Stamos gets dissed.  I guess it is still true that "no good deed goes unpunished."

So I guess we must respectfully disagree.

I agree that the MIC album is an excellent representation of THE Beach Boys' career. I don't think it represents the current incarnation of the band however.

Mike and Bruce's Beach Boys offer a show that is popular and entertaining but is not representative of the whole career of the band. It is stereotypical and IMO does not take itself seriously.

Is the Touring Band supposed to become anachronistic? They've grown with the times. How does one cram 53 years into 2 hours?

The 1960's shows were about 13 songs. Even in 1967, that didn't represent their whole career up to that point in time. They do around forty. I'd say that is progress. 

Neither does Brian the past few years. When pay to see you, you give them what they want. In most cases that is the hits.

This may come as something of a shock to you, so you might want to sit down... but MiC isn't supposed to represent the current incarnation of The Beach Boys: it's a comprehensive overview of their career 1961-2012, as you've already stated. Thus you've entirely invalidated whatever abstruse point you were trying to make.

Having witnessed Mike's band both soundchecking and going through that days setlist, I beg to differ: they do take themselves, and the music they're playing, very seriously. Plus, it's pretty hard to present yourself "seriously" when singing the likes of "Surfin' USA", "Help Me, Rhonda" or even "Good Vibrations".

One of the worst developments in pop/rock music was the idea that it should be--or even that it was better when it was--serious.

Exactly

I am really disheartened to see  a great writer, fan, and historian like Clay Wirestone being called "patently absurd" by people who should know better.


Taking your legacy and brand seriously does not mean that your art can't be fun. The Beatles protect their brand name very heavily and take their legacy seriously but at the same time the products that do get released  whether it be CDS or video games or merch exude a certain jovial fun.

The same care was never taken with the Beach Boys brand and it has suffered for it. The brand has been successful but that is in spite of BRI's ineptitude not because of any stroke of "brilliance". Like I said, Stamos isn't the cause of this, hut he is it's most prominent symbol of a brand that still markets itself like it is still the 1980's and a band that has no clue that generations of hip music makers look to its most ambitious music as inspiration.

I'll always disagree with the sentiment, no matter how it's worded. The question is - why?

Have you ever seen the "Inside Pop" broadcast, first aired on CBS in April 1967? If not, please check it out and consider what one of the underlying themes was that ran throughout the full hour.

Related specifically to the Beach Boys - Where does that leave songs from the "early days", 1962 and 1963, which were and are still pretty "serious" in their themes and even their delivery? "In My Room", "Warmth Of The Sun", "The Lonely Sea" to name one which could be one of the most emotionally 'heavy' songs they ever recorded, and this when Brian was still in his teens, basically.

Are those songs fun? Are they old-time switchblade and leather jacket 50's swaggering and delinquent rock-and-roll that was as much of an ideal as anything real? Should they not have been part of the band's legacy in favor of all fun and sun, all the time?

So serious songs in pop and rock were at least a major part of even the Beach Boys' musical universe as early as the first releases.

And consider the issue of rock/pop and getting taken as serious - whatever the sentiment - the music was part of a much larger social and generational groundswell that was happening in the mid-60's, post-Beatlemania. The music was a vehicle, perhaps the most valuable vehicle they had to reach millions of people through "pop" music and pop culture. This notion was unique to that era because the fight was on for not only respect, but also validation and the notion that what we have to say is important enough to listen.

And that our music is just as fucking good and intelligent and valid as the 200 year old stuff we're learning in school. And sometimes it is, in fact, meant to be taken seriously.  ;D

Should we make a list with all of the pre-1964 songs that were labeled "pop" but which actually dealt with serious topics in the lyrics? I mean, apart from "The Lonely Sea" and "In My Room" and the other early BB's tunes I just mentioned in the post. Or how about those that have...HORRORS...string and woodwind based orchestral arrangements that were adapted from the "serious" music.

And when, exactly, did this "development" happen? Approximate year would be fine.

Yeah…a rock star…even to go so far as to be envious of Dennis' writing ability.  Have any of us — even briefly — thought, "I wish I had a voice like Carl's," or…I wish I could write a song like, "Cabin Essence" (using my example here).

Stamo's comment does NOT mean his desire is to REPLACE Dennis.  The guy plays the drums, so it is natural for him to marvel @ Dennis' style.  The way this post is loosely thrown out here is to suggest that John Stamos — in between yogurt commercials — has been developing a long term plot (with his mentor Mike Love) to s-l-o-w-l-y remove the memory of Dennis Wilson from the Beach Boys.  :lol  Sure…why not?  Better watch out…the next BB greatest hist compilation will include the John Stamos version of "Forever." :o    

What a JOKE!!

The greatest problem with this message board (and all the others…and the main reason I hardly post) is too many people take too many liberties in trying to be right about something, so they don't think through what they're typing.  If you removed all of the misconception / misleading / uninformed posts, this thread would be two pages long.

The number of posts in this thread (alone) where the lines have been blurred between actuality and opinion is alarming.

Here's a question (please don't answer AGD):
Which member of The Beach Boys is primarily responsible for initiating the group's changing back to oldies act in 1974?

Don't guess… Oh, and it wasn't John Stamos.

Well said.

I don't mind being disagreed with. (Also, yes, I've seen the "Inside Pop" show. It was painful for the most part, though it was fun to see the BW segment.)

Here is why I said what I said: because the idea that serious pop music, or pop music with aims above entertainment, is somehow superior to pure entertainment, leads to a kind of self-importance and pretentiousness that turns me off. Let's be clear, I'm not saying there isn't a place for serious music, be it pop or otherwise. What I'm saying is that the idea that pop music should be serious is wrong. That a concept album is better than a collection of pure pop is wrong. That having consequential subject matter is better than disposable enjoyment is wrong. They are different things. They sometimes intersect, other times not. There is a place for them both and no need to pretend one is more admirable an achievement.

Carl?

1965/66?

And what I'm suggesting is that the Beach Boys are a band who as far back as 1962 were able to combine both the serious and the fun in ways that allowed them to coexist, and coexist to the point where the same band can have two distinct groups of fans being enthusiastic about the music for separate and distinct reasons. This still exists today.

What I do think may have caused difficulty for the band in general is when that simple point got twisted into thinking fans would want to see something like the "Summer Of Love" video as it appeared in the Baywatch TV show.

In that case, it's almost dismissing entirely what perhaps a lot of the group's fan base would want in terms of seeing a new offering from one of their favorite bands.

I thought the band in 2012 struck a nice balance between the fun and the "serious" on "That's Why God Made The Radio", understanding that the people most likely to buy the album were not going to want to hear a full album of suites and multi-movement concept songs, nor would they want another Kokomo retread or "Summer Of Love".

And in that way, they struck that balance...hell, they even struck a near-perfect balance with the setlists the anniversary tour gave the fans by featuring both the crowd singalong classic hits and the heavier album cuts...and it still upset me to see Mike for one lamenting that there wasn't a commercial hit single or in other ways downing the album project.

The balance was pretty close at that time, too bad it got messed up.

guitarfool2002, I guess my response is that I don't believe in a "perfect balance," either, because it requires some objectively perfect listener. There are always a multitude of tastes--and more so for bands with longer and more varied histories--and so that "perfect balance" isn't perfect for people who want only hits, or only early 70s environmentalism, or late 60s whimsy, or romantic mid 60s balance, or late 70s synth, or whatever else. One man's perfect balance is another's milquetoast, please-nobody compromise.  

Edit -- I should add that last sentence isn't my position. I actually agree that there was a pretty good setlist for C50, a solid attempt at pleasing various fan-factions.

I meant when the music itself first started getting labeled "serious"...and it was a rhetorical question. Just as there were many "serious" critics trying to dismiss rock and pop outright, finding batshit crazy intellectual ways to dismiss it, you'd also have "serious" critics even in the UK in 1963 finding ways to praise the music of the Beatles using the standards they were most likely to apply to a Philharmonic recording or a new album from a quote serious artist.

The musicians - most of them, anyway - took their music very serious, and I think as much as they didn't care what the high-minded critics would think, don't you feel that they wanted their contributions to the music and art world to be recognized and heard by those who were simply out to dismiss and denigrate it because of what genre it was rather than what the music actually sounded like?

In other words, if the musicians didn't take themselves and the music seriously, who else would? There was something very subversive about having groups of kids who had the negative image already at play by things as ridiculous and petty as the clothes they wore or their haircuts when those groups of long-haired kids showed everyone they could play...REALLY play their instruments, they could write songs using the same structures and techniques as the 'serious" musicians and their styles whether classical or jazz, and most of all that they were not an image or a joke. They actually were *valid* as musicians and writers.

That in the 60's was a massive development. Rock and pop could not be written off as some tried in the 50's, it went beyond and reached higher. (more ways than one...  :-D )

I wasn't suggesting that the BBs had no serious songs pre-1964.  I like both serious and "non serious" songs anyway.  When I was agreeing with him I assumed he was talking about the reason why the BBs are viewed differently than a band like the Beatles.  For example whenever the BBs are mentioned in the news, I can't recall any song other than Surfin' USA being played in the clip.  People today look at them as a fun in the sun band with a bunch of songs that some may view as cheesy.  They never get credit for Surf's Up, H&V, etc.  And they aren't taken seriously as a result.

I agree that Mike needs to get over having the hit record mentality. Good Timin' was the last Top 40 hit from an album and before that was Rock and Roll Music and before that I Can Hear Music. They have gone many, many years without a hit from an album. Weird that both Brian and Mike still think way when their style of music is nowhere near what makes a hit today. Maybe they need to go Country. ;)

It was fille de plage who wrote "MIC is as serious as it gets and in my view the absolute jewel in their creative crown."  This was in reply to my comment "Of course the Beach Boys have been successful for many years but the current incarnation of the band is successful as a touring outfit playing mainly old hits. It's popular but the band hardly present themselves 'seriously' IMO."

As M&B's BBs are not allowed as I understand it to record new material under the name 'the Beach Boys' obviously MIC has nothing to do with them as a band although Mike and Bruce were  both part of The Beach Boys in an earlier incarnation.

I don't dispute that M&B's band are hard working and take their job seriously. I do dispute that the version of the Beach Boys they present shows the music at its best. Even though in some shows Brian does a similar set, there isn't the same carnival atmosphere of beach balls being thrown around. Someone recently commented on FB how good it was to hear the quiet bit of GV without Mike talking over it. THAT kind of taking it seriously.

Even in 1974 I saw beach balls being thrown in the audience. That just as the oldies set was becoming more prominent. Plus, how do beach balls at a concert dummy down a band's performance?

Not Carl…not Mike…not Brian…not Bruce…not Al.

Wait for it…  DENNIS!

Just because Mike likes to have fun and connect with the crowd does not mean he doesn't take the music they are playing seriously. Would you prefer if he sat stone faced behind a keyboard the whole show like someone we could name?

David, didn't Jim Guercio also have a pretty big hand in it, as well?

Oh. My. God. Beach balls!

I actually saw beach balls being tossed around at one Brian Wilson outdoor gig. In some of these comments, I see contempt for the audience.  When people say things like the Beach Boys "don't need that type of popularity," that's dissing the people who go to the shows. Maybe those cretins who are in those tasteless audiences, tossing around beach balls, should stay home and only let intellectual hipsters go to shows featuring the music of Brian Wilson.

Hope so. I mean, it's okay to invite your frat brothers to the Saturday night kegger, but another thing entirely to bring them to the family reunion.

You know, even the years between 1970 and 1974, at least 50% of the show was music from 1967 and back. Even then audiences wanted to hear the songs that they were more familiar with.

Time for me to vacate this thread now that we've started taking pot shots at a mentally ill man.  No matter that he wrote most of that music…  fun in the sun stuff and serious ground breaking pop alike.