The Smiley Smile Message Board

So what exactly were they, specifically?  I am not music educated, but I am familiar when I hear a complex arrangement .  Wilson was ahead of the mall and probably still is. 

Okay, "Chuck Berry and harmony"  we know.  using the studio as an instrument we know.  But was BW the first to double track?   Would you credit him with the ' way-progressive' pop direction music took?  What is it that he specifically is credited with contributing to music with besides great tunes?

I hear his influence in bands ranging from The Cars(Magic) to Van Halen background vocals opn anything (undoubtedly inspired by Wilson).  Tilt of the hat to Carl on DLR's California Girls!!



 

No.


No.


The idea of the aging, washed-up rock star. :)

Jason - Damn, dude....

Brian created the music of a time and place, as much as Hoagy Carmichael, Cole Porter, Duke Ellington or George Gershwin.

He combined other people's ideas and made something new out of them by constantly pushing the envelope.

Musically, he was so talented and creative that he created a standard by which derivative bands are judged (and by which he too is now judged), and he set the bar high. He also put a lot of himself into his music, and since his personality is so singular, that intangible element is hard to duplicate.

...sounds like Mr. Positivity to a tee. :p

Heh, I was just kidding with that remark.

Seriously, I think Brian contributed a feeling to music that really has not been seen since his glory days. Those classic tunes are not just music, they're a way of life for many of us. He created the California Dream. Who else can lay claim to something like that? No-one.

I think it's important to keep Brian's contributions in perspective. He didn't invent anything that comes to my mind, anyway. He wrote really great pop songs, often that were more sophisticated in their arrangements than a lot of other pop songs. But you hear things like how his chordal arrangements were "advanced" and how he used non-root notes in the bass parts ... none of that is remotely innovative. There isn't anything particularly difficult about making extended chords, or singing them, once you're used to it. And inversions in the bass are as old as western harmony (i.e., 500+ years). Brian Wilson wrote really great pop songs. But he didn't change the way music works or anything. That's just hype.

'Really great Pop Songs'

Everyone has opinions, but that is quite simply a understatement.

If anything he created a new breed of pop songs.

I agree. I think that undervalues how unique his sound is. In the film "Helvetica," there is a female talking head, and she talks about a group of people in her design firm who made a bet that they could duplicate the opening lines of "I Get Around." They were all really great singers, and did that kind of thing on the side. They got it note for note perfect, and yet, somehow, it didn't deliver for those in the office. She meant no offense to those guys... only tried to insinuate that the Beach Boys had a sound that was unique to the Beach Boys. No matter how many bands are derivative of that sound... and no matter what musical trends Brian's songs reference... his never sounds derivative in and of itself.

I thought what Amy B. wrote was incredible. The thing about Brian's singular personality... it makes that music comes alive... pop, rock, hokey, slice-of-life, high-art, whatever. It is all so uniquely Brian, you don't know where the person ends and the entertainer begins.

Um, I think we have to look at GV and its unique structure before we slap on a lable that merely says "really great pop songs". While no one has " changed the way music works" (and just what exactly is that?) , GV did most certainly change the way pop songs were put together and ultimately had everyone listening in a somewhat different manner.

Or maybe you devalue "really great," because it's no small compliment. I knew my answer wasn't going to be popular (wrong board for that), but I stand behind it.

I am not sure, NightHider, if you are differentiating between contributions and influences. I'm going to stick to Brian's contributions:

1. Like Luther said, contributing great popular music/rock and roll songs from the mid-1960's, rivaling the British Invasion, and centering around the California values of cars, girls, and surfing.

2. Contributing one of the greatest albums of the rock era, Pet Sounds, which was one of the first concept albums (musically), but will be more recognized for the consistent, outstanding quality of all of the songs on the album.

3. A minor footnote will be the Smile Era. Even though the music was not heard by the masses, it WAS legendary for many years in the music field, and influenced enough artists/musicians who tried to emulate some of the music in the ensuing years.

Unfortunately, after 1967, Brian contributed very little to the music world, that would be considered outstanding or "great",  that is worth mentioning outside of a Brian Wilson diehard's world.

You should, it is your view after all.

But to me, Brian made much more than just 'really great pop songs'

He changed the whole spectrum, and how it's approached.

Well I agree with you almost 100 percent. One thing I would change though is to say that Brian post Smile did influence a lot of people. Wild Honey was one of the first of the rock and roll back to the roots albums. Friends had him incorporate jazz, Sunflower was sonically one of the best albums ever released, and though I don't care for it myself, Love You had the synth and DIY mentality that some have cited to be very ear opening. Perhaps these recordings have not reached a mass audience, but as far as influencing the music world, I think they have.

Usually the first to try a musical technique isn't necessarily the one to perfect it and make it palatable. So I would credit Brian with being innovative with many things. Intictate layered harmnony, modular production and a willingness to try non traditional instrumentation, clarity of sound pictures, and perhaps most importantly being one of the first rock artists to express themselves so personally. Unlike Lennon circa 1970 he didn't do it subjectively, he made you feel like someone understood exactly what you were going through.

This is purely me being argumentative, but: 1) Just because Wild Honey was among the first back-to-roots albums doesn't mean it influenced others to follow. I've never heard of anyone saying it inspired them to drop the B.S. and return to playing rock. 2) A bossa nova beat on one track is hardly incorporating jazz. 3) Sunflower was sonically great, but how did it influence anyone? It was a flop. 4) Love You had synth ... but again, did it have fans? NOW these things have people going back and examining them, but it's hard to say that they had much influence at the time.

I'm not saying people need to bend down and kiss Brian's feet for his music, but I don't understand why people on a BB message board would argue against something like Brian's impact on music.

Just saying!

I don't think anyone is.

Nobody's arguing, nobody's being negative. This is just good conversation. Trying to analyze. Offering opinions.

MBE, I put in that "disclaimer" about Brian's contributions outside of a BW/BB diehard's world to basically address albums like Friends and Sunflower. And The Beach Boys Love You to some extent. I love those albums, but, again, I'm part of that 1% who even knows/cares/appreciates those records. Unfortunately. But Brian will not be remembered for contributing those albums.

Again, I don't want to address "influences", that's a different animal, although I don't think Wild Honey, Friends, Sunflower, and Love You influenced many. Some, but not many.

1. Brian's sense of harmony and use of complex vocal arrangements in rock songs was innovative and unparalleled, even today.  Yeah, he originally got it from the lightweight pop/jazz of the Four Freshmen, but applied it to a new musical direction and IMO far surpassed what the Four Freshmen were doing.

2. Brian's chord changes were different and at times startling in a rock/pop song, but yet always seem to fit the song perfectly.

3. Brian bettered Phil Spector at creating an orchestral wall of sound with Pet Sounds, complex arrangements that were small symphonies with innovative use of different instruments that had not been used in rock (bass harmonica - with a solo no less, theremin or ribbon controller or whatever that was, three basses playing at once, layered multiple percussion instruments).  His use of orchestrated instrumentals was innovative - can't think of many rock groups doing that in 65-66.  A rock four piece instrumental, yes, but not like what Brian was doing.

4. Brian developed new ways of writing songs like a symphony with multiple movements with different tempos and vastly different arrangements - Good Vibrations - and tried to extend this method to Smile (and then Smiley Smile)but of course we all know what happened to that.  With Smile he continued to experiment with song structure, at times completely abandoning the verse/chorus/bridge structure.  This was getting into avant garde territory and Brian was the innovator - the Beatles to a much lesser extent (their songs were still fairly conventional in structure, with a few exceptions like Tomorrow Never Knows, A Day in the Life).

5.  After Smile Brian continued to innovate with songs incorporating bossa nova beats, waltz time songs, songs that reflected the simple joys of daily life (Busy Doin' Nothin, I Went to Sleep, I'd Love Just Once to See You, Mama Says, Friends) rather than being about drugs/mind expansion/revolution/romantic love - many years before Lennon did the same with his final album.

6. His enthusiastic adoption of synthesizer and especially syn bass was innovative in the Love You era.

After that, you get some occasional great songs, but most of the musical innovation was done.  Something doesn't have to be influential (i.e. copied by someone) to be innovative, of course.  The question of influence is a whole nother thread.

Brian's music influences the Beatles, who in turn influenced every other band on the planet.

But--and again, this is just argument--that's bad logic. I mean, Miles Davis also praised Ahmad Jamal as an influence. Miles influenced the world. Are we to say Ahmad Jamal influenced the world? (I do think Brian had a big influence on pop musicians. I'm not arguing that, just the logic.)

I do stand by my words (and also think that there is a jazzy undertone to Friends as a whole) but for the sake of argument let's assume you are right and I am wrong. The fact that these records have held up, and now more well renowned then many popular items of the day says something. The continuing influence is not to be overlooked.  

The only thing we differ on is that I feel those records made a greater impact then you do. No they aren't everyday items but many historians of sixties music (most notably the young musicians who keep drawing from them) are outside of the tight fan base. People astute enough to dig Smile usually will know of the albums that contained bits of it. One last thing we cannot forget that in parts of the world songs like Heroes, Do It Again, Darlin, and Break Away were huge hits. LP's like Surf's Up and Wild Honey sold decently here and overseas pretty strongly. The Warmth Of The Sun comp, and The Beach Boys In Concert live album also exposed these songs to many. Endless Harmony and AAB also exposed many to the fact that Brian's talent didn't just end with Smile.

Nothing like Good Vibrations had been done before in th 500+ years of music.

 As much as it might pain some to admit, Brian(along with a few others) truly DID innovate by fully realizing the potential of the recording-studio-as-instrument. Some pioneering attempts had begun before that, but he and a few others(Phil Spector, the Beatles) truly did innovate in that respect.

As far as innovations to ROCK/POPULAR music, he obviously innovated a lot--in the broader context of all music, however, I suppose his contributions were minimal.

Now, in the grand history of 500 years+of Western music: what contributions to MUSIC did Mozart make? Or Beethoven? How were things changed?

I suppose contributing to music and influencing what comes after are, in fact, and despite what other people here seem to think, very similar things.

A minor quibble here.  Smile did reach #13 in 2004.   Obviously, enough of the masses heard it and certainly appreciated it. 

Otherwise, you make some good points.

Innovation in music can and often does influence others - but if someone does something innovative in music, and no one else picks up on it, doesn't mean it's not innovative.  To try and prove something is innovative because someone else copied it is putting the course before the horse, so to speak.  I believe Brian did influence others with his musical innovations, but one does not guarantee the other was my point.  If a band came out now with a Nirvana grunge style album and it was successful and other bands copied it and a new grunge movement started, it wouldn't make the Nirvana copy cat "innovative," but they would still be influential.

Another "innovation":  Brian's use of tags or fades, which often were separate pieces of music entirely from the rest of the song, instead of the usual fading on the chorus.

His use of orchestrated instrumentals was innovative - can't think of many rock groups doing that in 65-66.

Maybe not rock groups, but Les Baxter, Henry Mancini or Percy Faith could knock those off in their sleep. The "Pet Sounds" LP instrumentals were celestial and different for a rock group to release, but besides really great melodies, those arrangements were nothing new. Just out of the playbook of exotica and easy listening arrangers.

Brian developed new ways of writing songs like a symphony with multiple movements

"New" for pop music.

His enthusiastic adoption of synthesizer and especially syn bass was innovative in the Love You era.

This might be true. I can't think of an example of a straight-ahead rock/pop group that employed keyboard to that extant in 1977. It doesn't strike me as innovative, like a Stockhausen or a Kraftwerk. It more makes me think of a guy that has the keyboard around, and it allows him to not use the other members of his band to create, and so he makes this myopic album about the slice-of-life things around him. However, the splurping sounds and weirdness of tone suggests that he was interested in the texture of the keyboard's possibilities.

I do stand by my words (and also think that there is a jazzy undertone to Friends as a whole) but for the sake of argument let's assume you are right and I am wrong. The fact that these records have held up, and now more well renowned then many popular items of the day says something. The continuing influence is not to be overlooked. 

The song "Transcendental Meditation" is essentially jazz. "Diamond Head" is somewhere between traditional Hawaiian and the tropical jazz/pop subgenre of exotica. And, as always, the Beach Boys employ a jazz harmony style that they've always put atop pop and rock arrangements. I find "Friends" the album to be very jazzy too.

I also agree that too much is put on this idea of influence the moment it was released. What of the notion that "Smile" has been influential for 40 years? Did Brian have to just influence his generation for his music to be contributive?

Now, in the grand history of 500 years+of Western music: what contributions to MUSIC did Mozart make? Or Beethoven? How were things changed?

You can't be serious with this...

Brian's work has always been grounded in what came before. That's why it's so accessible.

I still say he took other people's ideas and applied them in a fresh way. Like moving away from the standard pop song structure and into modular stuff or themes with variations, or slowing down the tempo mid-song, or adding on a little coda. Ideas that were hundreds of years old, but you didn't really find them on pop songs. The use of instruments that were generally used in other music genres, like the harpsicord. The exploration of more complex harmonies that were generally relegated to jazz until then.   Even Smile is heavily influenced by Gershwin and steals ideas from Bach, but Brian turned this on its head and made something new.

His use of orchestrated instrumentals was innovative - can't think of many rock groups doing that in 65-66.

Also, Jan Berry and Jack Nietzsche were doing orchestrated rock instrumentals in 1963-64. Nietzsche had a hit with one of them.

I agree. I think his most important contribution was raising the bar and making people try harder. Maybe there aren't too many bands that have tried to copy the Beach Boys' sound, but I'm sure that Brian Wilson inspired a lot of bands to just try harder to be 'great' instead of just 'good'...

Maybe there aren't too many bands that have tried to copy the Beach Boys' sound

Say wha?

You must be kidding with that statement. There were a million imitators of Brian's sound during the early-to-mid-'60s. Hundreds more after "Pet Sounds." And since that time, not only has his sound been a part of the musical lexicon, but it's influenced pop music to such an extant that we can hardly imagine not having it as part of our reference book for describing other songs.

The second half of the '90s had so much Wilson imprint on indie music, I can't imagine that not being recognized as a major part of that decade.

The number of bands that obviously tried to copy The Beatles is infinitely higher than the number of bands that tried to copy the Beach Boys...

Because tape machines and studio gear didnt exist in the previous 500+ years of music.

What Jan Berry orchestrated rock instrumental was done in 63-64?  And Jack Nietzsche isn't a rock group, is he?

Exactly.  Glad you agree.

What Jan Berry orchestrated rock instrumental was done in 63-64?  And Jack Nietzsche isn't a rock group, is he?

"Quasimoto" and "Skateboarding Part 1," not to mention the Pop Symphony No. 1 album.

As for Jack Nietzsche, well, he was an arranger and performer of rock 'n' roll that used orchestration over instrumentals. And besides, "The Lonely Surfer" was by the Jack Nietzsche Orchestra. ;D

The number of bands that obviously tried to copy The Beatles is infinitely higher than the number of bands that tried to copy the Beach Boys...

How does that do away with the comment that you made that "there aren't too many bands that have tried to copy the Beach Boys' sound"? Maybe there are MORE Beatles-influenced acts, but there's been so much Beach Boys-influenced product, it just boggles the mind.

Are. You. KIDDING?!?

Whoa....colour me shocked. We're comparing Brian Wilson's contributions to music to Mozart's or Beethoven's? That's like a boxing match with Mike Tyson vs. Fred Savage. Or to use an example closer to home, Dennis vs. Bruce. :)

Simple.

BW's real contribution was the concept of the rock star as auteur -- that is, the same single person wrote, produced and performed the records. And the artifact being produced wasn't just a song that anyone could play, but instead a recorded artifact that was shaped to his specifications.

Other, earlier performers came close. Les Paul and Buddy Holly both made inroads in that direction. Neither followed through, through. Brian was really alone in terms of the specificity of his vision and the quality of what he ultimately produced. He laid the groundwork for so many one-man bands who followed -- from Todd Rundgren to Lindsey Buckingham to Trent Reznor -- who saw the studio as not just a place to record product, but a place to create something that was ultimately, entirely them.

You see, Brian's ultimate genius as a musician is not that he necessarily invented anything new. It's that he combined and revised what was around him (including the talents of co-writers and studio engineers and players) to create nearly perfect gems of recorded feeling. That is, he used the same notes as other folks, he used the same musicians, he used the same studios -- but how he put them together expresses profound love, spirituality and yearning in a way few others have managed.

I know.


That doesn't make what I said untrue.

How else could you "contribute" to "Western music" if not through either

a)new inventions(say the piano a few hundred years back--it had to be invented and made and gotten hold of by a great composer to fully realize it's potential, and therefore be considered a significant "contribution" to "Western Music". (I use quotes, because as far as I'm concerned, neither contribution nor Western Music have been properly defined for this conversation.)


or
b) adding or blending pre-existing, "non-Western" forms, say Indian or African forms making their way into Western music--Rock deftly blends all forms of music, from Classical or whatevah you wanna call it, to European folk, to a variety of African forms, to Indian, and so on...

.Brian is one of the many "vocabulary makers" of modern rock, and therefore did help "contribute"--along with many others in the sixties--Beatles, Phil Spector, Dylan, et al-- to the stretching of the boundaries of the rock form--The stretching of those boundaries WAS a "contribution" to Western music", IMO.

I would say rather than :"Brian Wilson contributed to music", "Brian Wilson was part of a soci-cultural movement that contributed to music."
Again though: neither contribution or "Western music" has really been properly defined in the context of this conversation.

Popularizing vocal harmony surf music?

Why not? I take pop music just as seriously as any other art form. I don't see why Brian Wilson or John Lennon & Paul McCartney should be taken less seriously as artists as Mozart, Beethoven, Van Gogh, Shakespeare, Dickens or Picasso. I sure they will be a few hundred years from now.

Pop Symphony was released in 66, not 63-64.  Not familiar with the other tracks.

An orchestrated track by something called the Jack Nietzsche Orchestra isn't as far a stretch as a rock band doing them on an album or Bside in 1965, IMO.

"The Lonely Surfer" was a Top 40 single on the Pop/Rock charts in 1963.

Pop Symphony was released in 1965, more than six months before Pet Sounds hit shelves.

Also, "Miserlou Twist" on Dick Dale's first album, Surfer's Choice, melded a scorching Dale guitar lead with wildly dramatic string parts.

The astounding variety of the body of work that Brian Wilson created is unequalled in popular music.  I am still caught off guard when listening to many of the records and songs he produced.  Brian tried everything and often times it resulted in beautiful songs and sounds.  After thirty years of listening to the Beach Boys I can never tire of it: that is his genius.

Oh god, won't even fight that one.

A completely unnecessary comment