The Smiley Smile Message Board

I have noticed that over the past few days, reviews have trickled in mostly saying No Pier Pressure is not that great a record.  I read that a vocal minority don't like the record much, citing the collabs and the glossy production as reasons to blame.  Heck, even Wikipedia lists the album as only average according to reviews.  I am personally perplexed because an album of the e sort of style, Imagination, received positive reviews.  What gives?  Is this a case of defamation?  Are people worried Wilson is being controlled?  Is there something wrong with the album?  I personally think it is lovely, but the negative press on it worries me that the album will not sell well due to word of mouth.  What are your thoughts on this unusual publicity?

I personally don't get it. Brian's been more hands on involved than in many many years.  Best singing in over 40 years,  easily.

I personally think Imagination is a better record than NPP so I can understand why it recieved better reviews. Most of the reviews I've read for NPP seem to give it an average rating - only one or two outright trash it.

Their loss. :)

My thoughts are that this is a forum for The Beach Boys, individually & collectively, and that what we think (or think we think) necessarily isn't what Joe Q. Public does. What gives ? What gives is, some people don't like the album as much as most here do. BTW, saying something "isn't that great a record" or "average" isn't negative: negative would be "this is a very poor album, don't waste your money on it". I've not seen one of those yet.

Seeing as by now everyone and their mother has reviewed this album, when are you going to give your thoughts on it Andrew?

When I'm comfortable with them.  I don't do immediate gut reactions these days. :)

But here's a teaser - is it an across the board five-star masterpiece ? No. Is it a steaming pile of manure, the result of Brian being manipulated by, oh, pretty much everyone around him ? No. Do I like it ? Yes, rather a lot. Does Deschanel's vocal still pass me by ? Yes.  Film at eleven.

Exactly.  Reviews are all bullshit anyways.  It literally has 0 bearing on whether or not you like the album yourself, how could it possibly?  If my neighbor likes the new album by "Tool" I couldn't give a damn because I'm not listening to that crap.  If my other neighbor doesn't like the Beach Boys that's because he's an idiot.  Neither neighbor's opinion has anything to do with my enjoyment of music and my opinion doesn't have anything to do with their enjoyment. 

Reviews are just because we all like to hear ourselves talk. 

Here's a quick thought about albums like Imagination and NPP: BW's known to be a bit eccentric and many people like that; just think about our own beloved 'Brianisms' thread; or think about how Love You - like it or not - has become such a big cult favorite among fans. NPP may sound competent and very professional but like some of his solo albums before, it lacks that eccentric or humorous quality the man is pretty much known for as a public figure and as a songwriter, record producer or even as a singer - just an observation, personally I don't expect the man to do another Love You and it seems he's comfortable with the current direction of his music.

Imagination had just about the same critical reception from what I can see, and its reviews contain almost all the same criticisms.

The fan reaction back then was also less hostile to people who believed that BW was not on his A-game. Nobody believed there was a defamation conspiracy.

They would have said this exact same crap about "Sunflower".  or "Friends".  This album is as consistent as either of those.

Yup. Nice, reasoned basis for a review: if you don't like it, it's crap and if someone doesn't like what you like, he's an idiot.  ;D


Have to disagree here - Friends was recorded over the course of maybe two months and Sunflower over maybe, both in essentially the same environment by the same six principals: that's why they have a definite consistency of sound, and composition. Parts of NPP date back to the late 90s (I know, or 1975, or 2005...). Not saying it's a bad thing...

Comparing No Pier Pressure to those albums is  :o  but OK. I want to see what the contemporary reviews of Friends and Sunflower were like.

I have to take back what I said about the fan reaction to Imagination. Upon closer look: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.artists.beach-boys/8yNlvw5ddjE

I meant consistent as in, consistently good, not necessarily that it has a consistent sound. 

My point still stands, all reviews are just public masturbation !

As I recall the Rolling Stone review for Sunflower was on the whole complimentary.

Ah, yes... http://www.rollingstone.com/music/albumreviews/sunflower-19701001 (http://www.rollingstone.com/music/albumreviews/sunflower-19701001)

Friends was, apparently, none too shabby either...

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/albumreviews/friends-19680824 (http://www.rollingstone.com/music/albumreviews/friends-19680824)

Well firstly, as AGD has said, the reviews haven`t been bad. 3/5 is very solid and pretty similar to TWGMTR.

Secondly, yes there are things wrong with the album. It`s not perfect (and certainly isn`t in the same stratosphere as something like Sunflower).

Some general opinions from the reviews seem to be:

The opening and closing tracks are both mighty fine.

Runaway Dancer is abysmal.

Al sounds great and makes a very good contribution.

The other guests` performances are more mixed and unbalance the album.

There is some strong songwriting.

There are also some songs (eg. Tell me Why) that are not considered noteworthy enough to be given many mentions.

And Joe Thomas`s production is cheesy and dated…

The agenda continues... ::)

So every site that gave it a bad review has an agenda?  Right...

Ten years into this board, and 53 or 54 years into this band, and we're still trying to sort out what basically amounts to "everybody has an opinion"?

I've read glowing reviews of stuff I find totally vapid (cough*Avatar*cough), and I've read unequivocally negative reviews of stuff I think is brilliant, and yeah, sure, occasionally there is that momentary gut reaction where you want to tell the reviewer where they can shove their review. And yes, I do think some mainstream reviewers/critics have a bias/agenda/taste that is predictable.

But it's mostly down to opinion, which may or may not be informed. You gotta just live with it. And you can usually tell when a mainstream media review or fan review is a hack job by someone who isn't giving it enough thought or consideration or context. You can also tell when a reviewer doesn't seem to have any internal consistency or logic, either from review to review or even within one review. 

If I'm feeling charitable, I'll say the negative (or more accurately, mixed) reviews can be explained by--drum roll!--those writers not loving the album. Conspiracy, indeed!

If I'm feeling more cynical, I'd say it's not an easy album to put into a predetermined category. It's a bit weird, even while generally soaked in AC normalcy. It's all over the place. It isn't a single, coherent story that has written itself. Reviewers, like most everyone else, are usually pretty lazy and not especially insightful or creative. But again, conspiracy? Eh...

Most, if not all of the negative reviews I've read contain a minimal three paragraph exposition for the merit and legacy of Brian Wilson before it actually discusses the album, almost like they're saying, 'Look, this album is not great, but trust us when we say he isn't always like this'. It's stupid to accuse these writers of not appreciating the music. They know who and what they're writing about.

I haven't attempted a review of the album yet but what seems obvious is that some people are judging based on their own hang ups. The hostility shown in some quarters towards Runaway Dancer for example reminds me of the disapproval and mockery of anyone who doesn't follow the latest fashion.

Quite a lot of No Pier Pressure reminds me of Today, Pet Sounds, Friends.  Hard to compare with something like Sunflower because this involved the creative input of several different people. Dennis' style is quite different from Brian's, so is Bruce's. But take individual tracks:  Our Special Love/Our Sweet Love, It's About Time/ The Right Time.  Is Our Special Love better than Our Sweet Love? It's at least as good IMO. It's About Time and The Right Time are so different but It's About Time (much as I like it) is very dated, for those to whom this matters. It doesn't matter to me one bit.

Most of the reviews I have read on Amazon are 3 stars and up.

We must also remember that albums we have known for years come to us complete with associations, memories, some of them good ones. The music is hard wired into our brains. Do we like it because it is better or because our lives were better then?

3/5 is not bad, But I think it will always be hard for Brian to get rave reviews. Even the best of the best has its detractors. The problem is, he peaked early and he peaked with Pet Sounds, Good Vibrations and the SMiLE mystique. Anything he does now will have to live with that comparison. Unfortunate, but true.

The only things that are important to me are: 1) Did Brian enjoy creating this and 2) Do I enjoy listening to it. So far, the answers seem to be yes, so the rest is background noise.

Well, yes they ALL have an agenda.  Selling magazines, newspapers, getting hits, re-tweets, etc.  Editors' jobs are focused on those factors more than actually editing a piece for good content at this point - or at least the manager above them has that job.  An attention grabbing headline and in the case of the internet, enough words in the body of the piece that will bring it up in Google and other searches is the focus.  And everyone is on the internet now, so...

Often, if not always, there is a "style-guide" for writers, as well. Interestingly, Aaron Sorkin's the "Newsroom" portrayed this in a segment of one of the last season's episodes (I think the one just before the final episode).  The "10 Worst" whatever gets more hits than the "10 Best" with most media - films, music, celebrities.  Anyone who thinks that there isn't an agenda behind most reviews is mistaken, I'm afraid.  

And this isn't an easy album to review.  Brian is again challenging the listener, so take that into account.  Good reviewers will at least give it a thoughtful listen and have some foundation for their opinions.  Those are few and far between.  I don't agree with the idea that someone reciting Brian's history and then giving a brief review is giving Brian "a break" of some sort.  It's just easy to go to Wikipedia, then Google Brian and quotes about the record for other opinions.  A lazy reviewer, or someone who doesn't know what to make of what he's heard will do that.  It's about selling their own product and re-tweets, folks.

I also agree that most of the reviews aren't negative.  I see a lot of confused reviewers who don't quite know what to make of it, though.  Should that really surprise us?  Part of me wishes that the film could have been released first.  It would have given people a better perspective of Brian in a more personal way.

I don't disagree, but I think we all know that's not the agenda he is talking about. 

But if you think about my 3rd paragraph, it really is part of an agenda, if these reviewers are Googling and getting negative comments from places that could likely include SS - it comes up in searches regularly - they're influenced by it.  As far as the agenda here, well - I don't spend much time here these days because the consistent, and often contrived nastiness toward Brian and his work is downright toxic.  I don't find it anywhere else like this place.

Then why isn't every other album by others artists getting a lot of negative reviews? 

I'm perplexed by "the agenda" talk.  It's obviously code for something that I'm not in on, but that's okay because I'm normally the last person to be in on stuff like that anyhow.

 ;)

My opinion of NPP hasn't changed, I would probably rate it a 2/5.  There are 5-6 songs on it that are quite lovely and stand next to BWPS and TLOS as great BW solo material.  I still personally feel that BW '88 is his best and most consistent solo work.  There are tracks on NPP that I find not so easy to get through.  And, again, personally I would have preferred much less Joe Thomas collaboration on the production style.  

I don't feel any of what I've said there is unkind or mean spirited though.  And certainly, there is no agenda.  I'm grateful BW is still putting out music and we get little nuggets like the one's contained on the NPP Deluxe (In the Back of My Mind '75, for example).

If this is Brian's last album it's fitting that he close his career in such an eclectic way, I suppose.

I have to agree.  I'll admit on the onset when it was reported that Brian Wilson was collaborating with artists with whom he hadn't previously worked with and whose styles differed (at least in my opinion) greatly from his, I took a wait and see approach on the project.  But once the songs started to materialize, I implicitly understood what Brian was trying to do with this record.  He was doing exactly what he's been doing his entire career and that is find the best means of casting his songs so that they are pleasing to the ear and spirit, if that doesn't sound too corny.  But that is essentially what he does and continues to do here.

I'm not perplexed at all by the agenda talk.  It's just a term.  What speaks to me more than any particular term is that some people are willing to move forward with Brian Wilson and his music while others want him to create music that revisits his past glories.  Neither camp is necessarily wrong but to criticize the man for wanting to think forward, yeah that is where I can agree with you that the "nastiness factor" comes in.  It's not like NPP is wholly uncommercial either.  I watched Billy's video the other day where he's watching "Runaway Dancer" and the excitement in his voice when he's enthusing about this track is palpable.  The track is certainly something you can term as being "out of left field" for Brian Wilson but Billy's reaction was probably the same as someone back in 1966 who gave a freshly minted copy of "Pet Sounds" a spin.  It's different, it's not something you'd expect as a listener and from there whether you like it or not is just your reaction to the song.

Yeah I like this record.  I like it a lot.

Agenda talk isn't so perplexing if you look at the post history of some of these people. One guy last week said some very awful things about Joe Thomas (won't go into detail, thankfully the post was deleted by a mod). The poster KittyKat from a while back had nothing but negative comments to say about Brian's new music (and other things involving Brian). The brand new posters who showed up recently with indescribably intricate 2 sentence reviews of how much the album sucked...that was great. Another poster compared some Brian fans to terrorist martyrs last month. Even the bullshit about Brian not singing at all on Conan the other day....really?? There are plenty more examples strewn across many threads relating to Brian's new album.

Hey, if you're a fan and you don't like NPP, I'm not saying you've got an agenda. I'm talking about the people with clearly obvious post history full of nothing but Brian negativity. There are some posters on here, who I greatly respect, who haven't really gotten into this album....doesn't bother me in the slightest. It's just annoying to read through these threads, to see people's likes and dislikes, and then having to sift through the obvious trolling that has plagued this board for the last half year, especially the last couple weeks. Call it an agenda, call it whatever you want, point is there is an obvious pattern of unnecessary negativity from certain posters here and it's getting fairly tiresome.

Back on topic. Critics speak their mind, sometimes it doesn't jibe with public perception (RS Pet Sounds 3 star review for instance) and sometimes they're on the money (AGD's earlier posted examples). I'm not too concerned about critics negativity (or rather lack of enthusiasm) impacting sales. In the day and age of computers, people don't need to really rely on critics anymore to decide if they want to buy an album. We now have previews on iTunes, we have youtube. Brian's on the front page of iTunes right now, most people will click to check it out regardless of the critic reviews.

There are some obvious names where we can usually tell where that person's "review" is coming from. I don't know if "agenda" is always the right word; that kind of implies more effort and planning. I think it's more just engrained into certain folks to always be negative (or always positive) about certain things, for whatever reason.

But I do think some fans can come across as unwilling to acknowledge or accept criticism. Bad reviews are defamation? Really? Maybe that was just a vocabulary issue, or hyperbole.

I'm still digesting the album and working up a review. I'm enjoying it. I don't think it's Brian's all-time masterpiece. And, while everybody is (duh, obviously) entitled to their own opinion, I am a bit off-put by both all-negative or all-positive reviews. One line "this sucks" reviews are worthless. If a LOOOONG review of the album, going track-by-track, doesn't discuss one (substantial) thing the reviewer didn't like, I *may* come to the conclusion that they're predisposed to not write anything negative rather than truly LOVING every moment of the album. I'm not a big fan of those types of reviews either. I don't dig the reviews that read like a  "say something positive about each song" exercise. Nor do I enjoy those that read like a "say one positive and one negative thing about every song" exercise.

Boom. And there you are.

That's certainly what has raised my hackles.

Folks have every right to react to music in whatever way they like. But semi-coordinated campaigns to de-legitimize albums -- well, it's pretty clear what's going on.

I don't mind reviews that are critical but it is the reason for being critical to which I do sometimes take exception. To criticise it because it doesn't include all the Beach Boys, for example, and I'm referring here to more than one actual review, is a silly reason. It's like criticising it for not having lyrics by Shakespeare or collaboration by Mozart.  It's a Brian Wilson album. It isn't even Brian's fault that Mike and Bruce chose to go back to their own band - it was their decision.

There is nothing about No Pier Pressure that I actively dislike but some tracks appeal to me more than others. I still need to listen more before going into more detail.  I haven't liked all of Brian's work - I like one or two things from Getting In Over My Head but very few and hardly ever play it.

As for having an agenda, it seems to me that some of the fans ARE in that situation. Some are so invested in the Beach Boys that nothing less than another reunion will suffice. Others, fairly or not. do not want Brian to work with Mike again and prefer the artistic freedom that they believe Brian achieves by doing his own thing - what some believe No Pier Pressure really means.

That campaign here at SS is what I meant exactly by "agenda", not the reviews in magazines.

  I am not too impressed with the album. I like about half of it and love only one song...... On the Island.
On the Island has a little of that old quirky Brian. ( love the whistling)
 C'mon Brian..... give is one more album and make it all bossa nova. I'm all in with that.  :thewilsons

This is demonstrably false. Beach Boy-related forums, social media, and product pages are probably the only places you'll find more than slight praise for the new album, since they are predictably filled with people who savor anything with Brian Wilson's name on it. The reception from most other critics is totally in line with whatever I've seen people say about the album elsewhere on the web.

I'm curious to see what reviews people are speaking of that are 'critical for the sake of being critical', or are written as clickbait. On this board, most of the negative feedback on this album amounts to 'I don't see much special about the album'; most of the positive feedback is 'This is the best album since Smile!'. The terse, or highly-vocal negative reviews are a minority here, but a majority elsewhere, since nobody wants to bother getting flamed for having a dissenting opinion among those who are very devoted to The Current Product by Our Favorite Artist. (There is also the added factor that people who were involved in the album's making are reading these posts, awkwardly).

Reviews are trash. Don't pay them any mind. You like it or you don't. I am a huge Springsteen fan, but without opening the latest Rolling Stone when he releases an album I know they will give him 4.5 to 5 stars. Period. His last album, High Hopes, a collection of odds and ends, was named the #2 album of the year. I enjoyed the album fine, it was clearly one of his lesser artistic statements and that's fine, but they didn't see it that way because Bruce is one of their protected guys.

I love older hip hop. If a legacy hip hop artist releases a competent album, Rolling Stone will give them 3 stars. Period. The review might read as a 4 star review but they are getting 3.

I don't know about an album of all Bossa Nova, but I think an Exotica album (maybe at least half instrumental/wordless vocals) that included Bossa Nova, Samba, Hawaiian, and Cha-chas would kill. Bring on the guest vocalists. I'm not particularly interested in this purported Rock"N Roll album that BW mentions every time he has a new album come out, especially if it would be cover versions.

I'll repeat, I don't think NPP has predominantly negative reviews- there just seems to be a real desire to post links to the negative ones here.  And other artists DO get a lot of negative reviews.  I don't even understand your question.

It's already been said that if you think there is an unjust prevalence on negative reviews being posted, then anyone is free to post the positive reviews that are supposedly being withheld.

Let's all play a drinking game, everytime the word 'agenda' is said you have to down a shot. We'll all be shitfaced before the day is out.

The general vibe I'm getting here is that 'all reviews are worthless unless they happen to be postitive'.

My criteria is, does the album sound good while I'm driving, since that is now where I do most of my non-headphone listening. It sounds great in the car, including Runaway Dancer. And I can listen to The Right Time and In the Back of my Mind 100 times and not get tired of them. The critics are irrelevant to me.

From the reviews I've read, this is also demonstrably false. I have seen mixed reviews from the music Press - some very complimentary and others less so, although not many really bad ones - most manage to write something good about it.

With 17 reviews averaged out, NPP is now rated at 58  (out of 100) on Metacritic, which is on the high end of the 'average or mixed reviews' range. Only 1 of the 17 reviews is classified as 'negative'. Our perceptions get skewed by our own personal tastes,  but in truth this album in total is getting a lukewarm critical reception not a negative one. Lukewarm might seem ridiculous to some who wish this album could be a massive commercial and critical sensation but there it is.

YES!!  Serious!  There seems to be an agenda here in that regard. 

I’m afraid a reply to your post would go on and on for pages listing all the insistently negative posts from a fairly consistent group of people.  However, it’s easy to just click on a name on this Board to read the string of latest posts and see a distinct pattern.
 
Anyone here can do this obviously, and it’s almost entertaining in an obnoxious sort of way.  Just watch when a poster won’t be swayed by the facts.  Sometimes it’s someone who is insisting on “autotunafish” being present on a song, even when another poster has actually spoken to the person in charge of the mix and production who provides the actual techniques used.
 
Yesterday had a great example on the Conan show thread.  There was a video where Brian could clearly be seen playing the piano and was easily heard among the vocals, yet the person refused to drop the argument that Brian wasn’t singing or playing.  Just check the series of posts from some of these folks, and you’ll see what some of us are talking about here.

This doesn’t apply to regular posters here who don’t find this, or other recordings to their liking.  Why would I, or anyone else even care?  But the relentless bunch who keep repeating the same garbage over and over make it pretty obvious that they have some sort of issue that they are driving here. 

Bingo. It seems as though some posters are twisting themselves into knots to discredit negative reviews. I understand that the state of music journalism is quite poor... But nevertheless, even if a reviewer thinks Brian was one of the Bee Gees, I don't think anyone here seems to mind as long as it is a positive review.

Personally, I like NPP. It's not my favorite solo album of Brian's, but I've been enjoying it. Many of Brian's lead vocals on this album are among the best of his solo career, and there are a few small masterpieces on the record. In my book, the harmony blend brings NPP closer to a true Beach Boys record than TWGMTR was.

Some of my non-Internet friends - longtime Brian fans - don't care for the record. Are they actually sleeper agents, sent to discredit Brian's work? Maybe I should confront them about this, in Brian's honor!

It may be worth considering the possibility that a significant amount of reviewers - regardless of their journalistic skills - simply don't care for NPP. And that's OK. This shouldn't affect your love for the album. Many people don't care for "Love You," but it doesn't change my undying affection for it.

There are also trolls - posters with one or two posts to their name - who post negative stuff just to get a reaction from the fans here. Well, mission accomplished on that front! Everybody should know: don't feed the trolls. Still, this is a major new release, and I wouldn't be surprised if many of these posters are longtime lurkers who legitimately don't like the album. Clearly something is very wrong with their minds, and they must be fixed!

Hi Debbie! I assume you are THE Debbie Keil, and it's so cool to me that you post here. Everything you wrote above is fair, but don't you think it's a waste of your time to engage with trolls who are posting simply to get a reaction out of you?

I wouldn't mind if the album was a massive commercial and critical sensation -- well, maybe I would -- it might feel like the masses discovering your favorite little restaurant -- but after four complete listens, I'm still amazed at how consistently great NPP sounds to my old ears, even though I had low expectations. Unfortunately, that makes an average rating of "lukewarm" seem ridiculous. I mean, what music are these people listening to that sounds so much better?

To answer my own question: of the last 50 or so albums summarized on Metacritic, I count 4 albums that got lower evaluations than NPP. Which means (let me see here) 45 albums that were ranked higher! Comparatively speaking, "lukewarm" may be a bit generous.

http://www.metacritic.com/browse/albums/release-date/new-releases/date

Uh.

They sure are!  :)

Glad someone else loves it. It also harkens touches of Diamond Head and Busy Doing Nothing. It really does. There is way more going on in this than meets the casual listen.

On The Island is not some "horrid" tune as one so called critic claimed. The guy could have said "not my thing" or "I don't relate to that kind of music" or something as such but to expect someone to be taken seriously as a person that KNOWS MUSIC and to refer to a catchy creative tune by a woman with a very timeless voice like that proves the value of a critics.

I'm actually enjoying most of the tunes with guest vocalists more than the Brian only stuff. I think it has a lot to do with NOT sounding like it could have fit on Imagination or TWGMTR. We already have those. I think Brian and his gang hit a home run by welcoming new material and voices.

NPP sure seems to be the most polarizing BW related album since Love You. The other day a well known radio show host, who did a rave review of TLOS back then, seemed rather baffled by NPP's songwriting that he found too slick, having obviously expected something else. He played the opening track which he likes and actually finds too short, then the Zooey and Isham collabs and ended with L&N which he preised.

Then today, I read a rave review which ended with "This is a must!"


There you go, I think he sang much better on TLOS and better on TWGMTR too. You won't find two two agreeing on everything about NPP.



Look who's talking about agendas here!

Wow -- if you sort that Metacritic list of albums released in the last 90 days, which is hundreds of albums, NPP is 9th from the bottom. That seems a bit cold. But maybe we'll eventually see a backlash and reconsideration of the "classic" (make that classic) that so many people didn't appreciate at first!  :)

I agree totally that engaging with people who are trying to bait us online is a waste.  There are a few people here whom I completely ignore, and others whom I most generally ignore.  Life is much easier that way.  I simply didn't like the tone this thread took implying that people were somehow conspiracy theorists who saw a hand-full of people here as agenda-driven when it comes to attacking anything and everything Brian.  I rather like that they fight back and point out what ought to be obvious.  It is needed sometimes to actually brings some balance.  I mean, for heaven's sake, read the title of this thread and it becomes obvious that these few people have given a skewed view of how NPP has been received.

I’m not sure I feel this is the “most polarizing” album since “Love You.” It just seems more like people are just grappling with how to review the thing, how to express opinions, how to interpret or accept others’ opinions or reviews, and when and when not to assume anyone has an “agenda.”

I’m still fascinated by how often negative stated opinions (much moreso than positive) are so immediately reduced to some sort of agenda/bias/ulterior motive.

Yes, as we keep saying, there are a few folks who we know are going to feel a certain way about something, and they will indeed pop up and offer exactly what we expected. But I don’t think that’s running rampant here on the board. There are a few people who will turn a conversation about the brand of bass Bob Lizik uses into an anti-Mike Love diatribe. There are also those who will automatically defend Mike Love no matter how much of an a**hat he comes across in some random interview. But few take these extremes.

When we start dragging non-fan reviews into this discussion of “agendas” and “perceptions” and whatnot, it gets infinitely even more murky. I’ve read negative reviews that I disagree with. I’ve read some I agree with. I’ve read some whose underlying premise I agree with, but whom I also feel arrived at that conclusion in a totally unwarranted, unreasonable fashion.

Mediocre or poor reviews of BB-related product of all sorts is nothing new.

Ultimately, how many times on this board has someone convinced someone else to change how they feel, in the moment, about an album? Sure, months or years later we may re-evaluate our feelings, sometimes substantially (I dig McCartney’s “Press to Play” a LOT more than I used to). But we sometimes try too hard to seemingly try to change someone else’s opinion. When that fails, we start getting people questioning the motives of others. I find motives behind opinions VERY fascinating. But it’s all speculation. Everybody has an opinionated, subjective side. But relatively few, in my opinion, are truly able to be substantially objective at the same time. People who write for a living are sometimes better about shifting gears into an objective mindset, an objective “literary voice” when writing a review.

Also, muddying the waters is the fact that, in my opinion, many folks find it far easier to write (or say) negative things about something than positive. I have myself found that I sometimes have more specific, detailed observations to make about, say, a bad movie, than a great movie. Maybe that’s why far more people go to “Yelp” to complain than to praise.

But you gotta just deal with it. You have to truly accept and live with the fact that an album YOU think is an effing MASTERPIECE is a piece of crap in the eyes of somebody else, and that somebody else *might* be as learned, knowledgeable, and thoughtful as you are.

Probably not the first time it has been mentioned but I had a thought the other day while listening to "This Beautiful Day" again.  It kind of reminds me (not melody wise) of something like "Meant For You" from Friends.  I mean it's like "don't end, don't end!!" and it ends.

Anybody....Bueller...?

I disagree, many of the positive and mixed reviews on the board have gone through track-by-track with their feelings, along with a handful of negative ones.

 :beer


 :beer


 :beer


 :beer

Odd, is it not, that less than three days after the album's release we're debating the reviews and not the music. What a strange bunch of people we are...

Well, if folks can talk about autotune, what else is there to debate?  ::)

I find the reviews coming in from the usual journalistic suspects to be predictable in their muted enthusiasm. It's par for the course with Brian's solo career. I can't recall too many professional reviews (at least not written by mouthbreathers) of any of his solo albums that were overly effusive in their praise or criticism. To me, it seems like many reviewers out there just aren't tuned into same vibe we as fans are. They hear the album and wonder what the big deal is. Clearly it's a highly professional effort featuring great vocals and solid instrumentation, but it's just not their cup of tea, and they fail to see what the big deal is with this Brian Wilson guy.

So it goes. Brian, and the Beach Boys writ large, are lifestyle music. This is not a criticism. What I mean by that is, you really have to be in a particular mindset or mode to really be receptive of where they're coming from. I know this is generalizing things, but I feel their music appeals to those who have an optimistic worldview, are comfortable doing some soul searching, are trying to get in touch with their emotions, who enjoy good times and nature, and most especially aren't afraid of music that's sincere and wears its heart on its sleeve. If you're a post-ironic hipster or hardcore doom metal devotee then the music of the Beach Boys is probably going to fly right by you, and that's fine-- which is a long-winded way of saying why I don't put much credence in most mainstream music reviews.

The in-fighting between the various factions of fandom is more problematic, but it's always been this way in Beach Boys world. Try ignoring it. It's a beautiful, sunny day here in northern California. I'm in my room with the door to the porch open, listening to No Pier Pressure and loving every note.

Sorry but this is palpably nonsense. Pretty much every media review for the album has probably been posted on this board up to now. That includes many glowing reviews, many negative ones and, even more so, plenty that take the middle ground. They are absolutely reflective as shown by the same mix of reviews appearing on the album`s Wikipedia page and on the metacritic page.

And on another thread you actually described as `wonderful` a review from a fan who admitted he hadn`t even heard the album yet. Isn`t it a bit rich to praise people for reviewing an album without listening to it and yet criticize journalists for supposedly copying their opinions from smileysmile??? (As reviews on this board have generally been more positive than media reviews that doesn`t even make sense anyway)

Debating the reviews actually makes even less sense than debating each others' opinions on the album. Nobody can even decide on what rating constitutes a "good" review. Is 6.5 out of 10 a good review? We're debating whether more good or bad reviews are being posted, but we have no measure of what a "good" or "bad" review is. As some others have pointed out, a review can "read" positive and then you'll see a 2.5 or 3 out of 5 or "C" grade or something. Another review will have a lot of positive and very negative stuff, and then it might still give the album a "B" or something.

Nicko, you didn't seem interested in posting positive reviews of the album until you were called on it.

You're part of the problem. Debbie is part of the solution.

Well I've listened to the album in full at least five times (probably more than that), I think it's just wonderful.  I think critics just tend to hold Brian to too high a standard, they'll think an album as good as this is average because it's not another Pet Sounds or Smile which is unfair.  But what critics think shouldn't be relevant to us.  We're big fans so we're going to listen anyways and form our own opinion, and we'll tell our friends that it's worth listening to.  And to them, our word is better than a critic's.

There are positive reviews in the very first post of that thread.

And the reason there weren`t more is simply because others had started threads for individual reviews which tended to be the most positive ones. Every single review since then, positive or negative, has been posted.

There is no problem. That is simply in the minds of people who expected unanimous 4 and 5 star reviews and didn`t want to see any that didn`t tally with their own opinion.

HUH??

Yes, it was so important to gather up all the pans, wasn't it?

But some folks can just go back to the first page of this thread and see how it went down.

Exactly, well said wirestone!

Anybody can start a review thread of their own as far as I know. If you think any reviews are worth starting a thread for.... which I don't.

Exactly.  This thread is about not so good reviews on NPP, right?  Don't have to go far to find them.  Here's a couple:

Fred:
"Such a disappointment…"

John:
"While it great to know Brian is working on and releasing new material….it’s a shame to say this album is probably one of his career’s low points. Yes, there are some highlights, but it’s more an album as “Brian Wilson as Guest Vocalist” (on is OWN album) than, an album of collaberations with other singers. Most of these songs seem like incomplete ideas and most will find with the slick production and use of tunafish etc (by Joe Thomas), the album lacks the quirkiness and creativity most true Brian Wilson fans expect from him. This is not to say Brian (and Company) shouldn’t try new things, but it is to say this mellow smooth jazz sound (which most of these tracks sound like) isn’t really an ideal direction for Brian to take. He’s obviously just going along with what others think is the “right” direction for him to follow. (He won’t argue..it’s too much trouble for him). And it’s clear to many, those choosing this direction, have little if any idea, how to really tap into Brian’s true creativity. Many of these songs lack this and for the direction this album takes the effort falls quite short. As someone said to me, “It’s like hearing Sade sing “Smooth Operator” sideways. After a while, it’s annoying.” I think this says it all".

Jim:
"For heaven’s sake, what’s with the friggin woodblock in almost every friggin track? Joe Thomas enters the studio and says “that was great but I coulda used a little more wood block”.

Joe:
"Unfortunately the new tracks are only making a mediocre album worse – the “Summer means new love” with lyrics as “Somewhere Quiet” is a plain insult.
But there is a diamond also in there: the recording of “In the Back of My Mind” with just piano and voice is very heartfelt and warm. Best track on the album!"



* Edited because there were too many negative reviews. I don't like them either, but I read them. We're hard core Brian Wilson fans (some Brianistas) and we're also very partial. But ALL opinions are welcome. It's a free country. You take bad with the good. Music is subjective and mileage may vary between listeners. In fact opinions may widely vary; educated, non-educated, hard core music listener, casual music listener, rock/pop listener, Country music listener........you get my drift? Who's right and who's wrong? Different strokes (and tastes) for different folks. To each their own. I love P.O.B. and Love You and Livin' With A Heatache and others don't!! I don't understand why, but I move on! No skin off my butt! Are we writing reviews here to promote No Pier Pressure or just writing what we really feel no matter the repercussions and wrath of other posters? Not me! I tell it like it is, baby! Take it or leave it! I don't need no stinkin' badges!

We're very close to the subject, being fans, thus opinions will be more polarized here than anywhere else. There's periodic criticism to every BB, including BW, here. It's always been like that and it'll always be so. Sometimes said cricitism can be hurtful to some readers, which is understandable. But then what? What's the big deal with it? In which way does the
fact that an anonymous fan under a silly nickname backslashes a track or an album affect your enjoyment of it?

I embraced the new album in a way that I did not expect. But I'm aware there's plenty in it enough to cause controversy among fans, such as there is in every album of every artist. The passage of time will allow us some perspective and probably within a year we'll have less heated and more mature conversations about it. But seriously: is there a release that is devoid of controversy for us? Why should there be one? Or how?

I think it's time for some people to stop feeling attacked when others criticise NPP or bring unflattering reviews. There's plenty of praise for the album on this board; you can cling to it while enjoying its music.



By the way, THIS is a bad review.

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2004/jun/11/popandrock.shopping6

Not exactly...  I posed a few questions at the beginning of this thread.  I am worried that BW will lose album sales and become unhappy because of the bad press.  The exact questions I proposed was, "Is this a case of defamation?  Are people worried Wilson is being controlled?  Is there something wrong with the album?  [...] the negative press on it worries me that the album will not sell well due to word of mouth.  What are your thoughts on this unusual publicity?

Didn't mean to start a thread that is rapidly sinking like the Titanic...

I hope the album sells well, I really do.  I get the feeling that if it doesn't, we might just see the man retire.  It might be best for him, I don't know.  I'm just getting this awkward feeling about the whole album release and the press that is going along with it.

I wouldn't. I doubt these negative reviews will have any impact on the album at all, and as others have pointed out there aren't THAT many bad reviews. Most of the ones I've seen in the press have been either positive or mixed.

I wouldn't recommend anyone participating in the "agenda" drinking game. You'd die of alcohol poisoning in one sitting with all the message board McCarthyism that goes on around here.  ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gW8xfJ5T_4U

Speaking for myself -- the most basic "agenda" I see here is reflected in people painting mixed or lukewarm reviews as negative ones.  Viz, the thread title.

Followed by painting the people who dismiss that inventied negativity as them dismissing anything less than a glowing review as worthless.

When in fact people can react against the downspinning here without doing that -- accepting so-so reviews while not accepting the extra snark being posted here.


Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to cool down the Hugo Awards brouhaha while settling Gamergate in my spare time...

Cheers,
Jon Blum

In these enlightened internet days, word of mouth is no longer a factor: there's this thing called Spotify. You're mildly curious about Arnold Gregory Davenport's new album, you go check it out. Simply, if people like what they hear, they'll buy it. If not, they won't.

We're different here: we buy stuff like this because we have to. It's what we do, and them we proceed to rip it to shreds. Hello, my name is Andrew and I'm a Wilsonaholic.

Metacritic has used their particular methodology to interpret 17 reviews of NPP and characterized 4 of them as positive, 12 as mixed and 1 as negative. On the face of it, that suggests the reviews of NPP have been on the positive side of "mixed".

However, looked at relative to the 353 (3 * 100 + 53) albums from the past 90 days that Metacritic lists, NPP is in the bottom 10, tied for 343rd place. On that basis, it's fair to say that NPP is one of the worst-reviewed albums of the new year.

Recognizing this state of affairs and commenting on it doesn't imply that one has an agenda, other than a desire to understand why an album that some of us think is brilliant has received relatively poor reviews by these 17 critics.

My conclusion is that a big part of this involves expectations. What "should" a Brian Wilson album sound like? NPP hasn't met the critics' expectations. Hence, the very mixed reviews so far.

Here's another negative review from a huge Brian Wilson fan:

This Beautiful Day - 5, heavily processed Brian vocals, Brian sounding very old. Sweet, but not much of a song. The arrangement is alright, but the way it's been produced to sound is awful. That's the main problem I have with the whole album. Even Brian-esque arrangements are made to sound real bad by the production. The 90s AC sound, the digital reverbs and crispy slick percussion sounds. The trumpet sound in this song comes straight from an 80S porn movie.

Runaway Dancer - 1, an awful intro. The finger clicks, shakers and saxophone sound almost make the glaze come off your teeth. Can this become any worse? Oh yes, there comes a cheap sounding four to the floor kick drum beat with idem dito synths and heavily processed vocals. When I watched the band perform this live on TV a couple of days ago I felt so sorry for the guys in the band..I know the Wondermints guys are total music nerds with a great taste and they must have been embarrassed having to perform this type of trash. It pays their bills.
Hope the song is over soon. Ouch, it can even get worse: there's the chorus! Here Comes The Night (1979) is like God Only Knows compared to this crap. Completely unnecessarily guest star. It pains me how out of touch with modern music Brian fanboys are who rant about how this song could become a chart hit etc. This is the kind of sound that was hip in the 90s, welcome to 2015. Joe Thomas in 2015 is a worse collaborator for Brian than Mike Love could ever be IMO. And that is saying a lot!

Whatever Happened? - 8, really pretty song. Almost The Association-like chords. Good vocal arrangement. Awful production once again. There's no life in the vocals, because they are all pitched to perfect pitch. It takes away a lot of the emotion for me.

On The Island, 6, Zooey is the best guest star on the album for me. The only one that brings something true and honest to the table, with personality. It's a nice inoffensive song. You shouldn't produce a cheesy song like this so slick, it makes it worse than having some raw elements left in. Such a shame that even solo backing vocal lines from Brian like 'wasting our time' are tuned in such an extreme way.

Half Moon Bay - 5, so cheesy. I can't find any true emotion here with the way it's been produced.

Our Special Love - 3, It starts with harmonies that are very reminiscent of Forever. Sadly, every vocal is so processed it's painful to listen to. When the tasteless beats and the horrible guestsinger enter I just have to switch it off.

The Right Time - 7, when I first heard it I thought it was a bad cliche rewrite of Lay down Burden, but on the album it's a standout. It's a shame the way it's been produced and the vocals have been processed, cause it's great hearing Al and Brian sing together. Sweet!

Guess You Had To Be There - 4, Once again, I like the arrangement with the banjo and stuff, but detest the actual sound of the production. The singer sounds like one of the popsingers of the Disney children club. I don't hear a lot of Brian Wilson in here, except for the vocal harmonies.

Don't Worry - 4, It's not just the title that is reminiscent of Don't Worry Baby, the start of the chorus harmonies are a total rewrite. Complete with awful trumpet accents that sounds midi-like, an awful disco rhythm guitar. Ouch... This is so ****ing cheap. I can't believe there's Brian Wilson fans that dig this stuff, while simultaneously raving about Brian's production genius.

Somewhere Quiet - 7, Very nice and sweet, if totally unnecessary. Great to have Al here again, I love the power when he sings 'Ima-gineee'. One of the albums highlights.

I'm Feeling Sad - 7, the album is becoming better as we move on. This is a nice song!

Tell Me Why - 7, this is a great, classic, little song. Nice arrangement. Awful deep 80s midi sounding snare here and there. Whereas percussion sounds like the coca cola bottle like sound have been employed by Brian since Pet Sounds or earlier, Joe Thomas makes them sound cheap productionwise.

Sail Away - 6, Great to HAVE Blondie on the album here, but not equally impressing to HEAR him. It's a nice inoffensive song, with some Sloop John B. bit thrown in. I won't spin this except for when the whole album is playing. Which I doubt I will do a lot. This is shaping up to be Brian's worst solo album for me so far. I love

One Kind of Love - 8, Great song, awful production. That 80s snare again!

Saturday Night - 6, not a bad tune, but I don't like the singer's vocal and delivery at all. And the production is once again trite and cheap.

The Last Song - 5, all the media hype about this song was unfair. This is a nice sentiment and all, but that does not always make a great song. The production just about destroys what could have been quite nice. The lalala's, the AC piano playing. Ouch once again

A guy called lethimrun on the SteveHoffman.tv board wrote a very strong thing about the album I thought:
"I got a burned copy of the album a couple of weeks ago and picked up a Target copy on Wednesday. I watched the PBS special last night, overall I liked the sound of the PBS special better. Even so, I have serious problems with this album. Brian has said many times he doesn't listen to current music and when he does listen to the radio, he listens to oldies stations.
So, where did this stuff come from? It certainly doesn't sound like someone who is unfamiliar with current music trends. It certainly doesn't sound like the music that one might expect to be in the head of Brian Wilson in 2015. Even though, I'm not sure what that might be. I think I'd recognize it when I heard it. But, does anyone really think this is truly representative of Brian's musical creativity. In 2015, I might expect it to be odd, quirky, maybe even a bit troubling and hopefully still adventurous. But, I'd never expect it to be average and contemporary.
This album reminds me of a highly processed supermarket type food that has chocolate written all over it, yet on closer examination you find, ''contains artificial chocolate flavoring''.
Look at the photo of Brian on the rear of the booklet on this CD...for me that's this album in a nutshell. It looks like Brian, but we all understand, it's doesn't really look like him.
I wish Brian well, I hope his days are full of happiness. And if I thought there was any chance of his reading this, I'd never write any of it. "

I've thought about what you wrote here, it makes total sense. If the movie is great, you're kind of in it, you feel it without noticing all the great details. If there's a lot of bad details that take you out of the emotion, you're bound to remember the bad details. Sorry for being off topic here.

I have to say I'm really sad for you . I've been a BW/BB fan since 1968, saw them in concert for the first time in 1969 and I love this album. I think if you are a fan and you don't love this album the problem is with you and not with Brian, Joe Thomas and the production of this album. It seems as though many people on this board want Brian to be something other than he currently is. I'm sure this is a very familiar situation for Brian Wilson.

I disagree. People were criticizing Joe Thomas after Stars and Stripes and Imagination and when Brian issued BWPS, Lucky Old Sun, BWRG etc. I don`t remember many fans saying that they wished he was working with Joe Thomas again. Quite the opposite in fact.

Similarly some were unhappy with the production of TWGMTR and particularly with the C50 live album.

With that in mind, I`m not sure why anyone should be surprised if many reviewers have questioned the production and called it dated or cheesy. Many on this board have been saying the same things about Joe Thomas`s productions for years...

Thanks for your compassion. I'm very dissappointed as well, I had been looking forward to the album a lot. Even though some signs weren't very hopegiving, I was very hopeful. I hadn't liked the production on TWGMTR, but some of the material was so strong it just shone through. Gettin' Over My Head to No Pier Pressure is like Pet Sounds to MIU to me.

Professional reviewers are one thing.

But if you've followed Brian Wilson's solo career at all, I can't imagine much on NPP would come as a shock or disappointment. It sounds of a piece with practically everything he's recorded since 2000. Same general vocal and instrumental approach, same players, same kinds of songs.

I mean, maybe Joe records vocals somewhat differently. But this has a lot more in common with BWRG and TLOS than it does with Imagination.

All I can imagine is that folks are so blinded by the fact that Joe's name is attached, or that Mike's isn't, that they're not able to actually hear the music. Which is a shame.

EDIT: And in terms of the "this can't possibly be music that Brian wrote; he's just a shell of his former self" -- have you read the board in the past six months or so? One of Brian's best friends, someone who has known him for years and years, someone who is not part of his PR machine, has posted repeatedly.

This is Brian's album. These are Brian's songs. He co-produced it. He arranged it. He played on it. He mixed it. This is what he meant to release. Now, that doesn't mean it's automatically brilliant. But it is his.

It sounds significantly different. In many, many ways.

Joe Thomas`s name is not just `attached` is it? His sonic stamp is certainly present on the album because he is a listed producer. How many of Brian`s other solo songs have a production similar to Don`t Worry for example?

I heard the music. Both TLOS (without Joe and Mike) and TWGMTR (with Joe and Mike) do much more for me than NPP. I absolutely agree with you that it is total nonsense to believe Joe Thomas ruined an album that would have been great if Brian would have been the only responsible one for the way it turned out. I assume that the album came out as Brian wanted it to be and that he accepted no input from Joe Thomas that he didn't agree with. Do I think I have the right to demand from Brian to make an album to my liking? Certainly not. Even though I don't connect with it, I hope NPP will be a big success for Brian, because he deserves it.

Do you not believe that Brian gave his stamp of approval to the production of this album? Do you you think that Brian was bullied into this sound by Joe Thomas?

Your point being?

If the reviewers were saying that the production is dated and cheesy and that it is all Brian`s fault then would that suddenly make it better???

Nobody has said Brian contributed nothing or that he was bullied into things. But it is also nonsensical to think that Brian could co-produce an album with Joe Thomas and that it would bear no similarities to the music that he was credited as co-producing in the past (which people were so critical of).

The album sounds like a Wilson/Thomas co-production rather than a Wilson/Bennett production because that is exactly what it is.

Yes, because a bonus track that literally sounds like nothing else on the record is totally representative of Joe's input.

How about the 14 tracks that aren't that or Runaway Dancer? There's nothing about any of them that would be out of place on Brian's other solo records from the last 15 years. Except that, in large part, they're better written and more inventively arranged.

I wouldn't go so far as to state that it has NO similarities but it is IMO a lot better than some of the earlier work Brian did with Joe Thomas. Brian wrote Amusement Parks USA with Mike and also wrote Good Vibrations with him. That doesn't mean these songs are of equal quality.

Okay...... this record is starting to grow on me. Now I think it may be his best solo effort . It's much better with headphones for me.

Too many people were expecting a Masterpiece. What we got is a great cd. I especially like the tracks that make me smile, Saturday Night, On The Island, Guess You Had To Be There and yes, Runaway Dancer!! They make me happy. That's all I ever want or need from a song.

Thank you Brian

You are entitled to your opinion but to me there is quite obviously a difference in sound between songs written and produced by Wilson/Bennett and songs written and produced by Wilson/Thomas. That`s only natural and certainly isn`t down to the listener`s imagination. It can be heard in the drums and the brass to give but two examples.

I think there are also some fans who cling to the kind of songs Brian was writing during the SMiLE and "Love You" era, expecting him to churn out quirky outsider music like Daniel Johnston with a budget. Some of Brian's appeal with twenty-something hipsters (oh, lets call them what they are...college kids...DUH!) is based on that skewed perception of him but I don't think Brian is interested in being that guy anymore (and hasn't been for a long LONG time). Some fans have just got to move on. All the old stuff is there if you want to listen to it. NPP doesn't magically erase those other quirkier records. It's different, because Brian's different. Just roll with it.

Great posts! Summarized my thoughts better than I could. Just roll with it, indeed.

There are songs written by Wilson / Bennett on this very record.

Or didn't you notice?

Brian's band, which has consistently played on all of his records since Imagination, plays on this one too. Mertens, who has done arrangements on all the records since then, does arrangements here too. Brian overdubs himself a bunch. Again, like usual.

The main difference, as I've mentioned, is that there is a greater variety of songs, a somewhat denser production approach (although it's pretty similar to BWRG in many ways) and more multitracked leads from Brian.

The horror!

As long as we're throwing accolades around for posts here, I meant to acknowledge this earlier post in a positive way. Especially the part about "being in Northern California on a sunny day in a room with the door to the porch open." I can relate to that..... :)

And for Nick: Hang in there, buddy, here's one guy that'll give ya the thumbs up on your recent posts.  :thumbsup Like

Exactly

Which oddly enough is the standout track on the album. Coincidence?

You know, I was planning to start a NPP vs. Imagination thread, but I guess I'll just
comment here. In my opnion NPP is superior to Imagination. I want to stress this, since some fans have claimed preference for the latter.

. Brian's voice may be 17 years older on NPP, he aims less for the heights, but still he's achieved a degree of expression in his studio singing that is remarkably removed from the majority of those on Imagination.

.there is an "atheur"-like approach to the guests in the album. All them are incorporated into the ethos of it, while retaining the qualities that make them successful and unique. This is what true collaborations should be about: helping Brian realise his songs while bringing their own goods to the table.


.there's some cool songs on Imagination, but an important number of half-assed songs there (Sunshine, Dream Baby, the cover versions, Where has love been, the new Sherry lyric...). In NPP even the ditties are charming and thought-out and redeemed either by performance, arrangement or production value. Perhaps it's harder to find a song on NPP with the emotional power of a Cry or Lay Down Burden, but still the album conveys a mood throughout and puts you in a certain state of mind as a whole, which Imagintion did not. Songwriting is stronger overall.

.there's plenty of "ad-lib" arranging on Imagination. Those seemingly impromptu piano and nylon guitar licks, or the horrid saxophone, were foreign to Brian's tight, crafted, textured arrangements. Not only did they pervade the songs, they rang overtones of then-current corn, conferring the album a dated quality by the time of its release. Arrangements on NPP are much more organic, layered, textured, in line with the songwriting and Brian's style of arranging. Even the quirkiest-sounding like "Don't worry" refer to a certain time and style when BW was relatively active but never made records in such manner, thus giving the songs a certain timeless qualtiy.

.there is a complexity to the songwriting that was absent in the 1998 album. The attempt at sophistication was the final, mandatory, suite-like song, marred by its production values and self-proclaimed pretentiousness. None of that here. Songs are elaborated as such, and there's enough complexity to grant second and third listens.

Overall, NPP is a much more gratifying experience than Imagination. A stronger album, far removed from its coarse 1998 predecessor.

Pheww...For a while there I thought I was alone.

Your Imagination vs. NPP?

OK, I'll play. Best songs on NPP that have the same emotional impact, melodies/songwriting, instrumental/vocal tracks, repeatability, hit potential, etc. as Imagination. I'll just pick a few off the top. Here are the Imagination songs to compare to:

"Your Imagination"
"She Says That She Needs Me"
"South American"
"Cry"
"Lay Down Burden"
"Let Him Run Wild"
"Happy Days"

What's after this one to compare to, BW88?

Mikie: Instrumental / vocal tracks throughout NPP are vastly superior to Imagination, no question.

As for much of the rest, I'd say it comes down to personal taste. And I don't think you get to include "Let Him Run Wild" or "She Says," given that they're both from the 60s.

Regardless.

I'd say that:

"It's A Beautiful Day"
"Whatever Happened"
"On the Island"
"Half Moon Bay"
"Guess You Had to Be There"
"I'm Feeling Sad"
"Sail Away"
"One Kind of Love"
"Saturday Night"
"The Last Song"

Are either equal to or superior to the songs you mention.

Sorry but I think we are debating the undebatable here...

Yes, there is one new Wilson/Bennett song (the music from Somewhere Quiet having been written 50 years ago). There are 14 songs that have a Joe Thomas writing credit aren`t there? Clearly very different to TLOS.

And I quite agree that Brian`s band is still present and Mertens is still doing his job. So it is Thomas`s presence that is the difference.

And I don`t think anyone has said the production is identical to Imagination (it isn`t). What I did say was that there have always been people knocking Joe Thomas`s presence from Stars and Stripes through to TWGMTR. So is it really any surprise that some people don`t like some of the production elements of the new album?

I`m sure there are many people who do enjoy the production and nobody is knocking them for that. But the assertion that, `folks are so blinded by the fact that Joe's name is attached, or that Mike's isn't, that they're not able to actually hear the music` is blatantly false. Right from the beginning there have been reviews both on the board and in the media that discuss the production sound in a not particularly positive way. Now these people aren`t just imagining that there is a difference between the production of this album and TLOS. Of course there are differences. You can`t just replace Scott Bennett with Joe Thomas and expect an album to sound the same.

The Sherry song is lovely but, alas, it is ruined on Imagination by a gutless lyric, a clarinet intro as dull as tofu and production techniques out of a Julio Iglesias song. There's no throwaway production and arranging devices on NPP.

Except that Scott Bennett writes, sings and plays on the album.

So I'm not seeing the replacement there.

You also entirely miss the point of my quote, but you seem so blinded by hatred of the album it hardly seems worth the effort to engage with you now.

Enjoy poisoning people against the man and music you purport to love!

"She Says That She Needs Me" was unreleased up to that point, albeit "Sherry" with alternate lyrics. Might as well have been a new song in 1998. It was.

"Let Him Run Wild" is a contender - while a re-make, it was re-made with a different Brian vocal because he didn't like it the first time around - thought he sounded like a girl. I like both versions.

"No Pier Pressure vastly superior to Your Imagination"?  That's a little much, I'd say. I know NPP will grow on me. I know it will. But while "Your Imagination" was panned at the time for being "too sterile" and "too slick" of a production, I also know NPP won't get the same kind of airplay on radio stations (and in my house) that "Your Imagination" did.

And of course its down to personal taste. But Tunafish wanted a comparison, so I obliged.

Again, I've listened to NPP in its entirety 5 or 6 times. I keep gravitating back to the same 3 songs. One of them is "Guess You Had To Be There". I crank that one up. Love it!

This. is. absolutely. crazy.

I rate the album as a solid 3/5. If that is hatred then it is a strange world we live in.

Scott Bennett co-writing one song is obviously completely different to him co-writing and producing an entire album. This is basic stuff.

I have never said that I love any of The Beach Boys because I don`t. Some people love those who are in the public eye and some don`t. I do love some of the music of course.

The issue I have is one of people telling others why they don`t like the album. We have now had numerous comments on the board such as, `they don`t get it`, `it`s your own fault`, `they`re not listening properly` and now `people are being blinded by the credits`. These comments show a lack of respect for others imo and all stem from the, `my opinion is more important than yours` vault.

And to get back on topic, this thread is all about the media reviews. Now as I said earlier, 3 of the biggest criticisms of the album seem to be: 1, Runaway Dancer is reviled. 2, There are too many guests and there should be more Brian. 3, Joe Thomas`s involvement has led to the album being cheesier/more saccharine than some of its predecessors.

Now none of these opinions is anti-Brian at all and certainly can`t be considered `poisonous` towards him. It is clear from the reviews that they have a huge amount of warmth towards Brian and they have generally complemented his singing and some of the songwriting. I listened to the album myself again yesterday and felt many of the same things. Some really nice songs and moments but also some negatives such as the production. Surely that is a valid opinion to express on a messageboard.

only a few tracks have anything remotely in common with past output. good luck finding Spector/Dion/Proud Mary/Shortenin' Bread/Chuck Berry influence on NPP.

the most valid point concerning this album's production. nobody who believes this album was 100% typical Brian Wilson fare can possibly explain it without conjuring something incredibly farfetched like 'he's only trolling when he says he only listens to oldies' or 'the ottotune was done ironically, like Love You'.

He said when he's with his kids, he lets them choose the music.  So, it's not true that he only listens to oldies.  He might only choose to when he's on his own, but it's not like it's impossible for him to become familiar with younger artists.

there is that, but i wonder if he actually enjoys it enough to want to copy its style. brian believes that the music industry has 'passed away', as he once put it, so it's strange that he'd care for whatever his kids listen to. he dislikes hi-hats, but every drum part on this album features them. does brian really have cognitive dissonance with his own music?

You know, despite the fact that there are 5 or 6 guest singers on this album, there are still 10 songs with Brian/Al/Blondie. Throw in Half Moon Bay and you have a full album right there.

Is it farfetched because it doesn't fit your view of how Brian actually is? Brian is known for being facetious periodically, and anybody who actually knows the man will back that up.

Actually the overwhelming differences are...

1 - the guest artists (eight, twice as many as GIOMH)...

2 - Brian's band doesn't provide nearly all the backing. Far from it.

This is sort of like saying Van Dyke Parks collaborated on lyrics for BWPS and TLOS... Scott Bennett wrote lyrics for two songs on NPP, which is hardly comparable to the extent of his collaboration with Brian on TLOS. I hope I'm not poisoning anyone against Brian when I say that I, too, tend to prefer Bennett's lyrics to the ones we get from Wilson/Thomas.  Everybody has their favorite Brian collaborators, and personally, Scott Bennett was/is my favorite since Andy Paley. 

If you compare the arrangements and overall sound of TLOS and the Gershwin album with those of Imagination, TWGMTR and NPP, there is an undeniable difference in production aesthetic. I think a large part of the problem some fans have with Joe Thomas lies with his arrangements. He has a style of his own, very much adult-contemporary, with a lot of nylon string acoustic guitars and a very different usage of woodwinds and brass compared to we are typically used to from Brian. While many members of this board enjoy or don't mind this production aesthetic - preferring instead to listen to the songs themselves -  it's the type of thing music critics latch onto.

Essentially, NPP is Son of TWGMTR . With guests. A BW/JT album.

I see it like that as well. But with the difference that all that people disliked about TWGMTR has been taken a couple of steps further on NPP. The pitching of vocals, the AC sounds etc. And the strongest songs aren't nearly as strong IMO. There's no stone cold classic on this record.

I dare any sound engineer on this board to tell me with a straight face that no vocals have been pitched on this album. It's crazy how some people in this thread proclaim no Auto-tune has been used on this album, just because their ears aren't trained to detect it. Or the ones that start anal discussions about how it was not the Auto-tune brand that was used. Auto-tune is synonymous with pitched vocals and that's what we're talking about. Sorry for the rant, but knowing a lot about this stuff from working in professional sound studios all the time, it just irritates me to see this.

Word. There is so much pitching going on, it's out of this world. Further more, I'm sorry, but to me this album is unlistenable. I bought it for "In the Back of My Mind".

Hi all,

I have yet to buy NPP.  I do wonder if the fans give it a bad review because they weren't asked to be on the album also?  As for the critics, who get paid to review NPP, they should try making an ablum themselves.  We all have our tastes.  We have a right to day them.  While some are disappointed that Brian has other singers singing with him they should understand that this is how Brian and the powers that be wanted it.  If anyone calls NPP, or any other CD, unlistenable then throw it out or don't buy it.  I know that I would never be able to make an album.  Some times the more excited people get about the release of NPP or any other BW or BB CC, the more they will dislke it after listening to it.  If aynone wants excamples other than BW or BB I will be glad to talk about it in The Sandbox.   

 

Ask me, Yorick. I posted a very long and in-depth review and analysis of the album in a thread called "An Alternate View Of No Pier Pressure". Did you read it? I specifically looked at the album from several angles, including the lyrical themes, the construction of the songs and the music itself, the connections to the past, and also specifically from a critical listening perspective.

Just for the record, and I don't know your credentials as a professional or anything else, but I had in the past operated a recording and production company with a friend from school. There were clients we had, who made both demos and albums with us, who were not trained singers. When we tracked with them, the type of songs they had were such that it felt like we did not want obvious pitch correction or autotune to be audible on the tracks which was very much in style at that time, so we were drill sergeants about hitting the pitches as dead-on as possible into the mic. It was the long road to the finish line doing it that way, but also those singers were challenged to really focus on the minute details of hitting and exiting a pitch without bending up or trailing off flat at the end of a note. Maybe they had not thought that microscopic about doing it that way, but we thought it served the music to do it without audible autotune.

Later they went to another local studio where the engineer used autotune as a general rule. The process was faster, to untrained ears the vocals had more pop and punch, and the singers didn't need to focus as much on the technicalities as the "fix it in the mix" ethos was firmly in play. So they jumped ship and got autotuned vocals. No big deal, it's business, right?

And on other projects, I have used and personally tweaked and tweezed the most minor vocal points using specifically Antares Autotune. I tried to make it the most undetectable use of correction possible, to where no one except the two of us producing the whole thing would know it was there. No residue, no dramatic jumps or digital sweeps, just the most fine-tuned use of correcting a trailing note that we thought could be possible. The thinking there is to use it like a really good compressor - unless you want the obvious overuse of that sound to be a part of the aural sheen of that track, keep it to where it isn't an obvious factor, or even where you hear Adam Levine on a Maroon 5 track triggering the overuse of autotune on some hook phrases of a song but not others. That is a production decision, obviously. Just like going "all in" on an 1176 and getting that deliberately effected sound versus a transparent use of the compressor.

How many listeners who have not worked with this gear would know what "all in" on an 1176 sounds like, or could point to that and say it affected their enjoyment of a drum track within a mix? How many, seriously?

So let me say this rather bluntly.

If you are trying to suggest and counter and argue points about the quality of this album potentially being affected negatively by the audible use of Autotune or Melodyne or any other processing that bothers you, you're kind of barking up a wrong tree by hammering those points into the ground.

If your goal and the goals of others who have been harping on the use of pitch correction on this particular album *even before it was released* is to diminish or distract from others enjoying it and even celebrating the fact that this album has for many even exceeded expectations of what it would be when it was finished and released, it's not working. It will not work in those people's minds, because they have heard it with their own ears and have made up their own minds. You're talking into a dead phone at this point trying to revisit the old "but it's been autotuned" point.

That point is similar to the Boy Who Cried Wolf. It's been said so often, it all but devolved into a pattern, an expected response. Something which perhaps some factions who may have the goal of throwing dirt on projects with the name Brian Wilson attached would latch onto and continue pounding and driving and arguing to the point where it turned into white noise with no discernible signal to the point where it's just tired and worn out at this point.

Have there been other posters on this forum who have not only detected such patterns but also called them out? Not just called them out, but spelled out some of the details? So what exactly are they seeing, and is it worth taking into consideration before continuing to try to engage debates about this stuff? I had a dust-up over autotune last month or so where the point was made that if others are seeing it and calling it out, then that criticism is worth considering, internalizing, and perhaps applying to your process in general...so if folks here are seeing this pattern which I'll call "crying autotune" that has permeated this board, maybe those playing into it should consider that perhaps some folks are wise to what could be going on.

It's fine to debate, discuss, etc. But to try convincing others that they should *not* like something based on something that has been used as a way to diminish or denigrate in the past, it can quickly turn into a crying wolf scene rather than changing any minds or shifting opinions.

So someone should now *not* enjoy this album because someone says there is autotune or other pitch correction audible? Then challenges other "professionals" to challenge their opinions in return and try to argue a negative?

I put my thoughts into words in my review. I detected no obvious use of pitch correction to the point where it jumped out of the mix, where it affected my enjoyment of the tracks, or where it did anything to mask the pure sound of the vocals in question. I heard very pure lead vocals, and tracks where the sound of those vocals perfectly matched the textures and mood of the song. I heard backing vocals mixed old-school, where certain blends in the same track were EQ'ed a certain way to make them stand out from the rest. It's the same EQ method used on Wouldn't It Be Nice, where some backing blends are mixed to bring out the mid-high and high freqs while cutting the bass, and those jump out of a very full track. Same techniques and sounds on certain NPP vocal blends.

So I'll take your bait, Yorick, as I think I have a somewhat decent critical ear able to pinpoint and discuss some pretty minor sonic details, and I also have hands-on experience working with and without pitch correction with both lead and backing vocals on recording sessions and mixes. I have applied it obviously for effect, have masked it so it's inaudible, and also applied it to where the vocal would be effected in some parts of the song and inaudible in others.


Bottom line - On this album, it's a non-issue for me because as I listened, there was nothing that jumped out of the vocals to suggest they were obviously corrected to the point where it was blatant or audible. If there were, I must have missed them.

Difference is, I know what to listen for, and none of that pitch correction which you and others may be trying to use as the primary negative critique of the record affected my enjoyment of the album.

I have to say, this is really sad that you can't just put this music on and enjoy it for what  it is: well produced pop music. You have to dissect it, study it and make yourself miserable when it doesn't jive with the Brian Wilson you envision. So very sad, all the experts here on production and music and who Brian was and who he should be. You've painted yourself into a corner where you can't really enjoy what Brian does because you think what he does now pretty much sucks. I am so happy I'm not in that place.

Back up the claim with examples so some of us can hear what you're saying? I have the album, most of us do, give me a few track times and phrases to key in on and I'll listen with my AKG studio 'phones.

Fair enough?

Another beautiful post guitarfool.

GhostyTMRS  your comment is right on the money.

I can't wait for the movie to come out so some of the experts here can sh*t all over that

I'll try to find some time to do that guitarfool, but mind you it's not a prioritized task considering that I find the songwriting quite bad. But tuning has been used pretty much throughout the whole album, not by autotuning it I suspect, but manually in Melodyne or the likes. The anchor point for me is not the tuning however, but the overall (IMO) bad songwriting and production.

PS! I have four years in sound engineering school, and hold both a diploma and a bachelor in sound technology if it makes any difference.

Cent #1:

I listened to the 11 song mini-album yesterday. First impression: Simpler production. More contemplative. There would be fewer complaints about it. Although it's terrific, I still love the full enchilada.

Cent #2:

All that people disliked about TWGMTR? Maybe NPP should have way more songs about getting back to the beach? "The good times will never end"? TWGMTR is a collection of songs. NPP with either 11 tracks or 16 is a cohesive album. I recommend relaxing and listening to it from beginning to end without worrying about the details.

The Lovin Spoonful stated " Did you ever  have to make up your mind"!  Brian's work in a way is picking that favorite girl for prom, for a life partner.  Each of us (fans) have a song we favor over others on this new release.  Mine is Sat. night.  I don't know why, this girl just turns my crank.  Don't worry about reviews! Pet Sounds sucked to many of these people. Find your  date and never forget her.  Plenty of choices on NPP.  Brian"s angelic soul just brings a private joy to so many.  We seem to want everyone to love Brian as much as we do/ The slap in his face affects us.  Don't worry, plenty of joy is coming his way. My speakers are getting a good workout.

No difference to me, never was in the first place - I wasn't the one who issued the original "dare" for sound engineers to chime in, that was Yorick. Take it up with him. I took up this dare and listed what's in my background regarding these sound issues as a direct reply.

Replying to your post directly, I asked for just a few examples of where you heard this "pitching" going on to the extent that it led you to post what you did. Not a full exploration of every phrase on the album, but if you're hearing this pitch correction to the point it is out of this world and to lead you to comment as you did using the word "unlistenable", I have to assume since you didn't mention the writing at all but rather the "pitching", that you had a few triggers that set you off while listening.

Just give us a few so we can understand where you're coming from with that level of criticism. It's not a lot to ask considering the tone of your post and the wording used.

Songwriting - Now the goalposts are being moved and the focus of criticism has changed entirely. Is it now that aspect of the album that makes it "unlistenable" for you? Because your original reply to Yorick seemed to agree with him on pitch correction being the most egregious point of criticism, to the point it was "unlistenable" and so much pitch correction was done to make it out of this world with its aftereffects on the tracks and songs in general.

Not a word was mentioned about the quality of songwriting until I asked for some examples of what I assumed you were keying in on to declare it unlistenable, and that was Yorick's points about pitch correction, which he issued as a dare for other sound engineers to debate.

If it's the use of pitch correction, at least give us a few - not all - examples of where we can hear what you're hearing as a negative. If it's more the songwriting quality overall than the pitch correction, that's a separate issue which is more subjective and formed on opinion which is a totally different type of discussion. I can't prove to others what is or isn't a "good" song to the point where it becomes fact that "this is a good song because...etc". I can't ask for examples of where or why a song isn't "good" as many so-called legendary songs may not be good songs to everyone, obviously.

So which is it? Pitch correction or songwriting that makes NPP unlistenable? One of those has an opportunity to offer examples and debate them. The other is far more opinion-driven and subjective depending on who is discussing it. Let's keep the game on the same playing field at least. That's not a lot to ask.

THIS. TWGMTR is a compromise album - and it sounds like one. NPP on the other hand sounds very cohesive to my ears.

Frankly I could care less about "stone cold classics"....Hell, Friends really has no classics (barring Busy Doin Nothing, but outside of this circle it isn't really consider a classic) yet it is the 2nd favorite BB album of many a fan here. Like Mr. Franz says, relax and listen without worrying about the details.

Wow! Dude, let's not try to over analyze everything here! I agreed with Yorick in the fact that pitch correction software has been used heavily on the vocals on this album, 'out of this world' was perhaps strong wording. The album being unlistenable was a comment on the songwriting and the album overall - hence the 'Further more' comment. Maybe it's not a lot to ask, but I do not feel the need to explain myself to you at all. You just ended this conversation.

I ended it how exactly, by asking you to point out few examples of this pitch correction that you mentioned so strongly in criticizing the album?

Is it too much to ask you to provide a few examples so we can also try to hear what you're hearing as a negative about the album? Is it really that much to ask to give examples of what led you to tell everyone here what is wrong with the album in no uncertain terms?

If you read my original post, you will find that I wrote that I will try to provide you with some examples, but it's not high on my priority list, considering it will force me to listen more to an album I find quite unlistenable. So yes, at this very moment, it is too much to ask.

Can someone ask Brian or Joe if OTTOTOON was used and how much, if at all?

Your own reply:

"Maybe it's not a lot to ask, but I do not feel the need to explain myself to you at all. You just ended this conversation."

You should consider explaining yourself to those who read your comments here about pitch correction and how the album is "unlistenable", and take me out of the equation entirely. Just explain what you said to those reading the comments and offer a chance to hear what you found so objectionable to call it unlistenable. Because it went from pitch correction, to songwriting, from not needing to explain yourself, to now trying to provide examples for board members to explain yourself, from saying it's not a lot to ask, to now clarifying how it is too much to ask just now...

I'm replying to what I'm reading, that's all. And it's spinning around in many different directions at this point.

Cam, do you hear autotune on the album? If so, are there any times you can point to on the album where it was either a distraction or a negative that affected your enjoyment of any given song?

I'm certain it was (or a similar program) used, just as I feel pretty certain it's a question that won't get answered completely honestly or directly. It's not something most artists/producers are exactly proud to admit.

Brian mentioned pitch correction in a recent interview. I have no problem with it, and neirher does him apparently. Truth is:

1. In the studio, calm and with unlimited number of attempts Brian's vocals are usually better than during concerts.

2. As compelling a singing artist as he is in so many ways, as a live singer he's a very pitchy, sometimes halting, sometimes off beat singer. It's hard to find an amateur recording of an excellent, professional, live vocal from him from the last 15 years or so. Heck-- 30+ years or so. There are, yes, but very few. Therefore, for me, it's hard to think that the same guy that delivers one sloppy lead after another during his shows, is able to generate, unaided by sound edition or pitch correction of some sort, these very fine, flawless vocals we find on recent albums. Then comes the issue of ethics-- I have no problem with enhancement of any kind; and then comes the issue with pitch-correction marring your listening experience... I listen to NPP without any problem whatsoever; am very pleased with it and am stunned by the expressive fragilty of this 72 year old living miracle.

I don't have a problem with it either. A guy has a right to tune his album however he wants imo.

So the issue could be trying to find out where these instances of people hearing it to the point where it becomes such a distraction or such an obvious use to diminish the overall presentation of the music itself are originating.

In other words, it's simple question of where are those people who are using this as a primary point in criticizing the album actually hearing it on this album? And where specifically can it be pointed to for others to listen with a critical ear which would explain the whole use of autotune critique in general for others who want to hear what is triggering the level of negativity that some are expressing related to overuse of pitch correction on this specific production.

Wow dude, you really like discussing huh?

I think you rather read my original post wrong, if you put some goodwill in, you can read it as me agreeing with Yorick on pitch shifting, as well as adding a comment about the album further more being unlistenable. That was the intent anyways. And yeah I do not feel the need to explain myself to you, when you clearly did not respect my original reply to you. You are the one who several times have mentioned 'It's not a lot to ask', 'Is it too much to ask..?', and my reply to your was in fact that at this point it definitely is. I'm not sure how you manage to be so confused, but let's leave it at that eh?

Did you personally hear any obvious uses of pitch correcting on the album to a point where your own ears detected an obvious use of it? If so, did it detract from or otherwise affect your opinion of the music as a whole?

Give us a few examples from the album where pitch correction was such an issue for your listening experience, so we can try to understand where your comments were coming from.

Go back to my original reply to you, and you have your answer.

I don't have the album yet, just heard the released tracks and clips. Not a big fan of any of the solo stuff by any of the group.

I don't hear it but I'm not listening for it and might not even recognize it if I heard it. But even though it is there and if I did hear it, it would just be the way it was meant to be to me. Though I may not personally be a fan, who cares. I'm happy for Brian and happy that Brian is happy.

So you're commenting in a thread about an album you haven't heard.

Here's an idea. Procure the album, which has FOUR Beach Boys on it (so its hardly your average solo album) and decide for yourself how well the "autotune" was used. After listening, feel free to add to the discussion.

Otherwise, it seems like you just jumped in here with the "autotune" question just to stir up some sh*t.

In other words, the tuning is so awful that the people who hear it can't point to a single place where it's used.

Can we say agenda again, kids?

I commented on asking those involved if there even was any ottotune. I gave an opinion on ottotune in general. I gave a qualified response to a direct question.

You did read it, right?

 :beer

I'm here to keep Mike's Beard hydrated.

FYI folks, five pints and I'm anyones.  ;)

I don't mind the auto tune in NPP personally, as I think BW needs it.  However, there is some sloppy mixing of vocals that gets distracting. 

For example, there is a really bad vocal artifact in This Beautiful Day, when the "oh, oh, oh, oh's" come in.  It kills the song for me.

The pitch correction on Blondie's voice in Sail Away is also really distracting for me.

Also the way Brian double tracks his vocals compared to anyone else's vocals is odd IMO...

"Critical consensus." I love it, a few cut and pastes from the usual crowd and suddenly the album is a failure. A positive review in the NYTimes definitely doesn't count as much as unknown blogs.

Ageeeendaaaa! I just met a girl named ageeeeeenddaaa!

He shoots, he scores.

I have no ethical problems with processing, autotune or pitch correction. I guess you would have to use some, because Brian Wilson's voice is very limited these days. But there is a point where his voice become unnatural and metallic. Joe Thomas went too far on this album, as he has done before. There were some decent songwriting on 'Imagination' and 'TWGMTR" to make up for some of the irritating aspects of the production. The new album does not have that redeeming factor in my opinion. If you're asking for examples of going too far with the sweetening, I'll give some - listen to "Our Special Love" between 02:40-03:00. Listen to "Saturday Night" around 01:00. You'll hear examples of what I'm talking about. His voice sounds like it's coming out of a tin can. There is plenty of this all over the album, and it's not just Brian Wilson's voice that has been glossed over. I swear I even heard som kind of gargling sound achieved by excessive processing. I can't find back to that however to prove my point. Mind you I'm not an expert or sound engineer, but I don't think you have to be to hear the problems with the production.

So to clarify, over a 3.5 hour period (from approximately 7:30-11:00am, local time for this board), you didn't have time to go back and listen to a track or two in order to support your original claim, but you did have time to read through thousands of words and comment several times without backing up your original claim?  This is surprising given it shouldn't take much time at all to find an example on an album where there is "so much pitching going on, it's out of this world."

I know it's unlistenable for you, but it seems you could sooner get back to your busy schedule by taking a few seconds to listen to a track or two and cherry pick some examples of the out of this world pitch correcting for us rather than hanging around the board for 3.5 hours telling us you don't have time to back up your initial claim.

FWIW, I'm not taking a side in the pitch correcting debate.  I've only listened to the available tracks on my cell phone, which is no way to listen to music.  I just think this debate borders on ridiculous.

EoL

While it great to know Brian is working on and releasing new material….it’s a shame to say this album is probably one of his career’s lower points.

Yes, there are some highlights on NPP, but it’s more an album of “Brian Wilson as Guest Vocalist” (on his OWN album!!!) than an album of collaberations with other singers or artists.  To my ears many of these songs seem like incomplete ideas and with the slick production and use of Autotune etc (by Joe Thomas), the album lacks the quirkiness and creativity most true BW fans  I would think, expect from him.   That edge is missing.

This is not to say Brian (and Company) shouldn’t try new things or styles, but it is to say this mellow smooth jazz sound (which many of these tracks sound like) isn’t really an ideal direction for Brian to take. It just doesn't sound like Brian to me.  Brian appears to go along with what others think is the “right” direction for him to follow. (He won’t argue..it’s too much trouble for him).  And he may need some help in finding this directions nowadays, but it doesn't seem to work well, at least, to my ears.

Those choosing this direction for him, seem to have little, if any idea, how to really tap into Brian’s true creativity.  A real problem for me.  Many of these songs lack this and for me the direction this album takes, makes the effort falls quite short.  I feel like it's somewhat of a wasted opportunity for the most part.  

As someone I gave a copy of the CD to who's is a minor Beach Boys'/Brian Wilson fan said to me, “It’s like hearing Sade sing “Smooth Operator” sideways. After a while, it’s annoying.”
 I think this says a lot.

Dogbone

And this is your first post to the board? Welcome, I guess.

 ::)

It took you 80 posts to say it, that line in bold. So the crux of the issue in everyone talking about autotune could be suggesting Brian needs it when recording vocals? Hmm, not such a casual observation or opinion after all, is it?

Agenda coming to light, perhaps? So it's not about autotune specifically to this or any album, but rather suggesting Brian needs the help to put across a competent vocal these days?

If that's it, if suggesting Brian isn't able to cut it vocally and needs the help, and this is some if not most of what's behind all of this autotune bullshit, I'll call it out as the nonsense it truly is.

So if *he* needs autotune, then who doesn't in contrast? Let's see what that answer will be.

Dogbone:  out of curiosity, who do you think is making these choices for Brian and how do you know it isn't him, or that this isn't what he likes?  He chose the collaborators, musicians, etc, knowing what sound they would get.  You seem to have a pretty strong opinion about what his music should sound like and about what is going on in his mind (too tough to fight for his own choices).  Do you have inside intel that I don't?  What makes you think this isn't what he wants?  If he didn't want a Joe Thomas sound, then why did he go back to Joe twice after Imagination?  Or are you going back to the tired old argument that Melinda is calling the shots?  Was it Melinda that forced home to use Joe?  Tell us what you know, or are you pulling this from your @ss and stating it as fact?

EoL

My thoughts exactly, good sir. Registered 2 years, no posts, and this is the first one. A familiar sight 'round these parts in the past year or so.

Funny how quite a few of us can spot these little patterns, isn't it? Perhaps even more funny in a sad/pathetic kind of way is how many people who have either rarely if ever posted or have newly registered to the board feel so compelled to throw dirt on or be critical of new projects from Brian Wilson before even introducing themselves, or saying something positive about being a fan on any number of hundreds of topics and posts, which is what so many have said is the reason they joined the board.

The funny thing is many people here see it and I don't think the people doing it realize just how much of it is as transparent as Saran Wrap.

My vote goes to the latter of those two possibilities.

"Yes, there are some highlights on NPP, but it’s more an album of “Brian Wilson as Guest Vocalist” (on his OWN album!!!) than an album of collaberations with other singers or artists."

I get it if you prefer more Brian leads, but Brian has never been just a lead singer.  He's always been more of a song writer, arranger, producer who assigned leads to those best suited to sing them.  Granted that has mostly in loved assigning leads to other Beach Boys, but it should not be surprising that he would emphasize his song writing, arranging, production, and give leads out to other artists, since working with The Beach Boys isn't currently an option.

EoL

Whoa guitarfool, my friend, step off the pedal a little bit. There's no need in crusading against the naysayers. There's been prejudice and a-priori observation in this place since the days when Chuck Le Page was around. It's part of our human condition... adopting a virtual identity to make virtual points against certain people. Happens everywhere actually, in every realm of human endeavor, most particularly the internet. Crusading against injustice is a very humane attitude, but it's important to know when to stop. Points were proven. You wrote your own lengthy review, which is available for anyone to read, and it even enhanced more than one listening experience. Moderate yourself, moderator.

his name is EvenJo ... maybe it's Joe himself. commenting on his own production and songwriting.. :o

You listen to music on a fucking cell phone. And you have the gawl to put down Tansen for something you can't hear anyway. He has every right to either support or not support his claim that Tunafish exists on NPP. He has as much right as you taking the time out of your busy schedule insisting that he take time to prove it. He doesn't need to prove anything. If he says he hears it, he hears it - trust him. He doesn't need to justify hs findings - this ain't a court of law that requires evidence. BFD if you disagree. You don't need a professional or educated ear to hear anamolies with the production. And the debate over Autotune is ridiculous? No more than it is with your ridiculous post dog-piling on him for his sincere belief concerning the existence of pitch correction. It sounds like you indeed are taking sides with this issue. Go listen to NPP on a halfway decent stereo system with both of your ears or headphones before making comments, Mr. Audiophile.

I wasn't trying to point out such a stabbing blow.  I need to elaborate.  I think in order for Brian to sound so sweet like he does on NPP, he needs a little pitch correction to make sure he stays on pitch...

What I said is not the 'agenda' I was referring to.  I am worried about how reviews and the criticisms of the album will affect album sales.  

Look, I'm sorry if what I said throughout this thread sounds jumbled...  I don't have a better way to explain what I am feeling.  Didn't mean to offend you, guitarfool and others.

 :(

No need to make it personal toward me, and I don't need the advice. I'll say what's on my mind, and speak for myself. This isn't about moderating at all, it's about seeing what's going on as someone who has been an active member since the beginning. And I'm speaking for myself.

There are specific issues in play here, and this feels like the right discussion to put them on the table. Like it or not.

I don't understand the issue.  I have not been around this board, even lurking, since the beginning...  Can you explain please? 

So have Brian and/or Joe said that ottotoon was used on the album or not?

So if I owned a restaurant, and someone were to go on Yelp and post a negative review saying my food was cold, overly salted, and used too much garlic, even if none of the claims were true I would have to just accept those opinions as "true" facts representing my restaurant simply because that negative reviewer says he tasted too much salt and garlic and his food was cold? What if none of my recipes used garlic, and what if the dish he sampled didn't use salt? And what if I personally prepared that man's dish and ensured it was served hot?

I'd at least ask that reviewer what dish he had, when he was there, whatever the case to at least try to understand where the criticism was coming from. That would be fair, I'd think. If that's not the belief, than anyone would have the right to criticize anyone or anything without any recourse at all, and anyone looking to denigrate or criticize someone or something could just fire away at will, and not need either the burden or proof or even the truth as a factor to support the claims. At least offer something concrete to back up the criticism to be fair all around.

Will do. Explanation to follow.

Can I ask why it even matters to you, Mr. Cruz? As you've admitted, you don't care for solo stuff by any of the Beach Boys. You also admit you haven't listened to the album. Therefore, it's hard to understand why you even care about the use of "autotune" on an album you claim to not care about? Is it possible you are just keeping this "autotune" line of attack alive just to knock Brian down a few pegs?

How would that knock Brian down a few pegs exactly?

It is pretty straight forward, have they said whether it was used or not?

Happens ALL the time, Craig. Inacurrate reviews, or reviews that just don't jive with the restaurant owner or other 'regular' customers. Could be a bad day that the reviewer (or customer) was at the restaurant. Could be the food was served cold or the service sucked or whatever variable surfaced on that day. Could be a matter of taste and high expectations. Quality vs. quantity or the high cost of the dining experience as related to all of the above.

But you know what? When you see a trend that identifies the same issues over and over by different people, you begin to wonder. And it seems that the issue of Tunafish has popped up incessantly on this board, not only with NPP, but with the C50 CD and others. Do you think all of these people are really full of bologna or have an agenda? What agenda would they have? They all seem to be very knowledgeable Beach Boys/Brian fans with a legitimate love of the music! Why do some here think they're full of crap?

It makes me wonder how many board members are lurking here and are reading this thread but are fearful of posting what they really think of NPP. Seriously, can't people post a negative opinion here without being called on it and ridiculed? It makes me feel strongly that those who are ridiculing the negative points and thoughts are the ones with an agenda!!

And you know what else? Did you know those same restaurants on Yelp PAY to have the good 4-5 star reviews near the top above the negative ones? Bet you didn't know that. Kinda reminds you of payola in the old days....

The thing about art of any kind is that one person's trash is another person's treasure. There is nothing wrong with posting a negative review of Brian's album. There is nothing wrong with loving it either. Each person brings a subjective set of suppositions that they filter  Brian's music through. I love The Band, but my wife hates them. We still talk about music, visual arts, and literature. Brian at this point is making the art he wants to make. He would like it to sell well I am sure, but he knows there is a limited market for Sixties musicians. Time marches on, and general tastes change. It is cool that he reached out tohis kids on thus record and tried to record some things his kids would like by working with those artists. This is an album for his kids. I am thrilled that as a dad, he would make that gift to them.

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/150x100q90/537/KbQ1m9.jpg) (http://imageshack.com/f/exKbQ1m9j)

I'll take that as a cue to post what I'm about to say, the notion of "trying to knock Brian down a few pegs".  Again, speaking for myself.

Others have been noticing this and calling it out. I'm one of them. No need to post comparisons and counter-examples "oh, well they do it too..." because I'm speaking about this notion alone and will not be sidetracked or filibustered in the process of arguing any straw man points. I think there have been very deliberate and transparent efforts to "knock Brian down a few pegs", and I'd like to cite some of those here along with follow up comments. This seems like the right discussion to do it.

After the fall of 2012, the landscape changed. Much discussed, much argued, and it's still raging. Lines were drawn among many fans, like it or not that's the way it played out. It's real no matter how much we don't like it and would rather not see it.

Move ahead to when the news of the new projects coming up in 2014 and 2015 from Brian started to come out. Word of a new album in the works, a bio film, a book, shows and tours, appearances, etc. Before some had even a clue about how anything would eventually play out, there were factions on this board that started putting a negative, questioning, even cynical tone on these projects. But that's sometimes human nature, right? Or is it more than that? Decide on a case-by-case basis, or take it as a whole, but it played out on this very board.

Consider:

- The album. Some were writing it off immediately before hearing a note. The collaborators and guest artists were announced, immediately met with claims that Brian was being "forced" into doing this, that he didn't know who his guest artists were, that it was a record label gimmick, that someone was pulling the strings to get new artists on the record, etc. Then some of the rumored guest artists came under fire too.

Turns out Brian knew and heard these "new" artists primarily though his family. Turns out his kids were fans of these artists, and asked him about working with them. He'd hear this music in his house, in the car, and when his family was listening to music. Not uncommon. Maybe he even liked some of them, in return those artists were fans of his as well. So he put it into a plan and worked it out that they come in to work with him on the songs.

The critics were not only wrong, they totally missed the point entirely. The facts told the real story, Brian was the catalyst in getting these artists to work with him inspired by his family. And, he knew and had heard their music too. No one pulled his strings, no one forced him to work this way. That's the fact.

- A 10-second cel phone video of Brian recording a vocal was posted. Some heard autotune, some declared it as representative of what the album would sound like, to the point of suggesting how bad it would be. Based on a ten second video clip of a tracking session. A fair appraisal to judge the whole album which no one had yet heard based on a cel phone video of a tracking session, ten seconds long? No. Yet that's what got written here as a negative against the album, which no one had heard.

- The film "Love & Mercy". Some still photos and cel videos taken on the set surfaced. One showed a particular car, a "woody", that some used to go negative on the film. "Summer Dreams", some compared it to. Cheap, not specific to detail, ignorant of the importance of a woody in telling the story, then it got into all kinds of peripherals. The film would be too Hollywood, it would punch up the story, create false heroes and false villains and push some pipe-dream fantasy that was part of something or another...and the soundtrack, the music was called into question, etc.

People who have seen the film can speak more closely and personally to this one. But it's not what the so-called "naysayers" were suggesting it would be. Far from it, in fact. But that will come out even more. Consider how much negativity the issue of that damn car on the beach in a still frame got versus the still shots Mark Linett shared of him playing Chuck Britz and how exacting his work on getting the recreation of the studio in 1966 had been.

Of those criticizing so vocally that car, how many posted a reply to Mark's photos of a damn near perfect recreation of the studio control room in 1966, using authentic gear? Wow, that looks great, Mark! Nice work! It looks so close to the real thing! Same with taking the steps to ensure the actors were playing period-correct instruments on the sessions...not only playing authentic looking instruments but also *recreating* the actual recording sessions live for the cameras...

So much for saying it would resemble "Summer Dreams", I suppose. Another case of the real thing disproving the naysaying.

- The book. Has there been much negativity about the book? There were some suggestions written between the lines and directly on the lines almost questioning the book's validity based on answers Brian has given in the recent Q&A sessions. Trying to knock the project down based on that? You decide if that's what it is.

Some criticisms over the author of that book were posted too, but we'll leave them alone for now. I'm sure that will come up again in time.

- And on those Q&A sessions...one of the most disappointing scenes I have ever seen play out on this board. I took it personally for certain reasons, and i don't think I was unjustified in doing so.

Before the session happened, remember some of the negativity? Brian is a lousy interview, it wouldn't really be him answering, it will be scripted and planned ahead of time, it will be a promotional shuck for the new album, he'll only take questions about the new album, it will be dull and boring, he won't answer anything, it will be tightly controlled by management, he doesn't want to do these sorts of things, etc.

All wrong. Terribly wrong. Proven wrong. *Can* be proven wrong. But some here had to put a negative spin on what was a pretty damn big happening for the board, and what was thought to be a nice/neat/positive thing for fans here to participate in.

Then it actually happened. Again, all of the naysaying was made to look like complete nonsense by the actual session. Brian was taking and answering the questions live with no advance screening.

Most fans were positive and happy it happened. Some, though, went negative. Same naysaying, same kind of negativity, some of it completely bizarre and some of it repeated to the point of ridiculousness.

Yet Brian himself stared it by saying "let's have some fun", and he did.

He obviously did, because look at how many he has done since the one here. Who expected this from him? many formats, outlets, and even a different 'feel' to each one. He seemed to have enjoyed it enough to do that many more, and he's spread them out over other media too. Good for him. He likes chatting with fans like this, I hope he keeps doing it.

But the joint q&a here and on bw.com was the first one. And to see the reactions, the level of negativity before and after, was and still is sickening. Ungrateful is the most kind word I can use, and that's about as far as I'll go.

To all of those who tried to ruin that experience, nice try. Maybe it affected this board somehow, but Brian is still doing these sessions with fans. Maybe now it's with fans who might appreciate it a bit more than some of those around here, some of whom will remain nameless but who said and posted some really hurtful stuff perhaps without realizing it. I didn't forget.

- And interviews: Wasn't there a case recently where it was charged that an interview had been ghost written, and the answers doctored after the fact? And didn't someone even post what he/she insisted it "should" have read versus what got posted?

I say to that...seriously? It's a decent interview, so now the attack and the negativity has to be found in suggesting the interview had been doctored or punched-up after the fact? My God, has it come to this?

- Live shows. The Vegas show taped for PBS brought together Brian, Al, Blondie, Ricky, and Billy Hinsche on stage. They did songs which had not been done for years. There were vocal and instrumental blends which had not been heard for years. There was a reunion of sorts of key players from what many fans consider the best live Beach Boys touring band dating back to the 70's, with Blondie and Ricky and Billy, playing and singing with Al, only this time adding Brian to their blend.

Fans a few years ago started a petition to add Blondie and Ricky to the C50 lineup. Why did they do that? because they wanted to see these musicians who were part of the Beach Boys during a great time for live shows again on stage with the surviving members. It didn't happen, yet when it did...

...we got people instead commenting on how Brian got up from a chair on stage. We had people commenting before about autotune and production sounds because Joe is the producer of Soundstage. We had people commenting on little things leaking out rather than celebrating what was taking place on the stage. Now the special is being shown in some markets, we can all see it for ourselves. Those who were there live can already speak to what happened that night.

So why try to go negative on it before the show even aired? In fact, before the concert was even staged? What purpose does that serve? Some of us see it as part of something else, some call it an agenda, whatever the case.

I'll say one thing about this board. At least we discuss these kinds of events and let people know what's coming up, or what happened. There aren't many BB's related boards out there...of those that are, it was kind of odd to see the lack of attention given this Vegas show with Blondie, Ricky, and Billy, as well as the comparative lack of attention an album featuring Brian, Al, Blondie, and David has been getting on some of the other BB's outlets. I'd think fans would want to know what the band members past and present are doing, and I'm glad we have people on SmileySmile to keep them informed and actually talk actively about these projects and events.

Sometimes I have to wonder just how segmented not only the fanbase but also other outlets for that fanbase have become since Fall 2012.

- Autotune.

In my opinion having read the types of comments and those commenting on it, Autotune is the next "handlers" issue. Remember the days where there were all the endless claims and charges of these mysterious "handlers" who some swore were calling so many shots and surrounding Brian to the point where he was told everything to do and did exactly what was told...then when that was not only debunked but also laughed off the board by a simple case of presenting the facts of the situation, barely any claims of "handlers" have been posted. Oh, it's not like they're gone entirely, in fact there were some subliminal hints at this mythology written in this very thread. But overall, the claim is bunk and has been proven so.

But now - consider "Autotune". Just consider it. The "handlers" were there, yet when asked repeatedly, no one could accurately name them or prove they were there as suggested. Now the "autotune" is there, yet when asked repeatedly, no one can pinpoint where it is or prove that it's there as suggested.

And that's just a few. Consider too how many first-time posters have played into this stuff by coming right out of the gate blasting Brian or something he has done. Consider how many posters whose accounts have sat dormant have suddenly come to life to post something critical or negative about Brian. Consider how many posters in the cases above are repeat customers, meaning they've been part of the negative chorus on many of these related discussions.

Is it pure coincidence? The coincidences I believe in are when someone pays a dollar for a Lotto ticket and hits the jackpot. But that's just me.

I read through as other posters started keying in on this stuff, and it's time to at least get it on the table. If there are strands of these coincidences running through these related topics, and people are seeing them, then it's game-on to call them out. And also, if other posters are asking for one, to demand an explanation.

We saw a defense of the "autotune" claims posted that suggested because someone heard autotune, and believes they heard autotune, and says it's autotune, then it's perfectly fine...they don't need to defend anything to anyone.

So in return, regarding the agenda, the patterns, that whole ball of wax so to speak, let me turn the phrase a bit for this situation:

For those seeing the agenda and the patterns: They don't need to prove anything. If they say they see an agenda, they see it - trust them.

And getting back to the first line and the previous post, it feels a lot like there are visible efforts to knock Brian down a few pegs that have followed every announcement of a new project, as well as the release of those projects. If it's autotune or handlers, bashing a q&a that hasn't happened or bashing a TV special that hasn't happened, critiquing a film no one has seen versus critiquing an album that hasn't been heard...weigh it all up and decide for yourself.

When one needs to search to find things to criticize or does nothing but criticize, it suggests more than a passing or passive opinion. When others start to see patterns of this and call it out, it's time to at least put it on the table.

My point is why bother with competing opinions and perceptions? Why not find out? Someone said earlier Brian had said it was used. I did not see or do not remember seeing Brian or Joe speak to this, is there a citation? If not, there is a definitive answer and someone should try to find out instead of arguing with each other based on our personal perceptions.

There is one huge problem with everything you have written.

The album has been given a more positive reception on this board than it has in the media.

Really? A Beach Boys fansite is more positive about a new Brian Wilson album with contributions from 3 other Beach Boys? Thank goodness we have Rotten Nickotomatoes to do the math for us. Keep up the good work.

Ps. We can click and see your post history you know. It's a bit obvious, and you know what? It kinda proves every damn point GF made. No wonder you just dismissed his argument without engaging. Talk about disingenuous!

Guitarfool, WRITE A BOOK! 8)

I don't really have much to add to this; I'm just quoting so that it appears twice.

“We had like 72 tracks to work with, plus computers and Pro Tools,” Wilson explains of the production methods used in the making of No Pier Pressure. “We can cut and paste things and go in and pitch correct something with the computer if the note is flat. I wish we had that in the 60s! It was awesome.” 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/04/04/brian-wilson-on-the-beach-boys-rivalry-with-the-beatles-and-flying-solo.html




Does this take away from your enjoyment of the album?

 :beer


 :beer


 :beer :beer :beer

 :beer :beer :beer

 :beer

This is all well and good, GF, but you're leaving out something. Brian, Mike and Bruce are routinely trashed every day on this board (Al and Dave seem to get a free pass). You're only looking at it from how it pertains to Brian. That's a skewed perception. Nobody's a bigger Brian Wilson fan than I am (and I'll wrestle all of ya!) but I'm also a Beach Boys fan and I HATE to see ANY members trashed on what's supposed to be a place where "fans" of the band gather. Unfortunately, others don't see it that way and they take every opportunity to slam Brian and Mike (and lob Bruce in there too) regardless of what they do. What happens here is hardly unique. Beatle message boards can be worse and KISS message boards?... Forget it.

There are some people who are never going to be satisfied and sadly, these are the people who are the most vocal and seem to post here constantly. When it was announced that Brian was doing a Q&A here, I got a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach, because I know the nature of this board, and it played out exactly as I thought it would. That's not because I believed in a secret conspiracy, but it's because the malcontents are the most active.

Brian is getting the lion's share of the flak now, because he's actually been in the spotlight in a way the other members haven't been. Does he deserve it? No. Will it happen again? Yes. Will it happen again when Mike's book comes out? Of course. Are posters who post nothing but negative things about him trolls? Absolutely.

....but are they part of an organized conspiracy to knock Brian down a peg? No, that would assume that this board is so collectively powerful that it could have any detrimental impact on Brian's career. God help us all if Brian's career is ever so far down in the gutter that he would have to rely on positive comments from this place to make a living. 

So is it an organized campaign or are people just a**holes? The idea of an organized campaign to take down Brian on, of all things, a message board would mean that the whoever organized it would have to be clinically brain dead to think anything written here...in a place that's frequented by Beach Boys fanatics i.e. the freakiest fringe of rock fandom...would be successful. We're people who not only bought "Here Comes The Night" but actively discuss it. We barely qualify as people from Earth.

So what's next? Names get collected, "undesirables" put on lists, etc? This board is already toxic enough as it is. There are trolls here, plain and simple, just like every other message board. There's nothing special about it. Don't feed them. If anything, we mustn't let it affect other posters who may have legitimate gripes or critiques. All too often, I'm seeing people getting called out for having an "agenda" just because they don't like something. That's a bad climate to have around here and is cowardly.

(and for the record, if anyone didn't like NPP, thinks Brian uses autotune, whatever...we may disagree or get in arguments, but that doesn't mean I'm lumping you in with the trolls. Your opinion is just as valid as anyone else's.)

Yep, my posts are a mixture of positive and negative. Doubtless I`ve posted some garbage over the years.

But Peter Reum got it absolutely right in this thread. Positive and negative opinions are both valid.

And it seems here that the definition of the word `agenda` seems to be any opinion that doesn`t perfectly correspond with their own. The album has been very well received on this board. Just because it hasn`t had a 100% approval rating doesn`t mean there is a big agenda going on. Even Saddam Hussein didn`t get that.

 :beer

 :beer :beer

Those playing the a-word drinking game who would like to go from slightly tipsy to full blown wasted are again encouraged to peruse nicko1234's posting history, which will possibly not back up his inexplicable claim of being fair and balanced. We now return to liver damage already in progress.

(Quick, you still have time! Add positive stuff!)

He's posted every review he seems to have laid his eyes on, be they good, bad, middling or otherwise.

Go further back and bask in the balance! I hope you have enough booze on hand.

It would be interesting to see if we could ditch the drinking jokes and address anything GF brought up in his post. Which should be faaairly obvious to any lurker of this lovely site for the past few years.

What with all the excessive use of the 'a' word, I'm running low. Anyone fancy doing a quick booze run for me?

oh no...now the word a-g-e-n-d-a has been filtered to say autotune... see I just typed in autotune and it comes up as autotune.

Amazingly enough, while avoiding the positive ones!

Hi Guitarfool! You are a fabulous, clear-headed writer with a good grasp of logic... you would make a great lawyer. I always enjoy reading your posts. However, methinks the gentleman doth protest too much. It's as though other peoples' dislike of NPP is keeping you from enjoying it to its full potential.

I've been a member of this board for 7 years now, and I have seen the odd, anti-Brian sentiment rear its ugly head from time to time... Especially in the case of C50 (oddly) when certain posters felt they had to take Mike's side.

Then reality is that there are as many differing opinions about Brian's current projects here on Smileysmile.net as there are registered members. For example, I love some of the tracks on NPP, but there are a few pitch correction moments that make me shudder and, in at least one case ("Our Special Love") ruin Brian's vocal for me, full-stop. The usage of pitch correction on the non-Thomas albums (BWPS and TLOS) was far more subtle, and Brian's vocals - even when the performances were not up to par with his latest albums - were produced far more artfully.

Another, much smaller example is that sometimes Brian double-tracks low notes, or words that might have been lost in his main vocal performance. You can hear this in some of the low notes of "Summer's Gone" (THE night grows cold, IT'S time to go) and "One Kind of Love," among others. This is a fairly standard way to get a nice, organic sounding vocal if you punch-in or just mix in the overdubbed notes well, but the Thomas albums don't generally have this sort of artful production. (For example, the stereo placement of the overdubbed notes in "Summer's Gone" is different from the main vocal, which made it leap out to me when I first listened on headphones).

Now, I realize that many fans don't notice or simply don't care about this type of thing - those of us who are musicians, like yourself, and especially those of us who have produced massive amounts of vocals and block harmonies, are probably more apt to hear it. There are other things, like the snare rolls in "Sail Away" that end with a snare and a cymbal hitting together, that are just a bit amateurish to my ears.

I enjoy much of Joe Thomas' work with Brian in spite of these niggling things, not to mention production aspects that are far more important to the sound, like the arrangements that sometimes tend into adult-contemporary territory. Joe Thomas and Brian Wilson produce a very odd combination of super-professional, slick, audiophile recordings with amateurish elements.

As for the film... Unlike a musical album, So much has to go RIGHT for a movie to be good. We are placing our trust not in Brian or Melinda, or even the actors... We are placing our trust in the director, crew, producers, et. al. So, it's easy to see where pessimism is warranted. I haven't been following L&M closely. If it's seems good, I'll see it.

If you expect nothing, then everything is a surprise!

He's posted positive ones too.

Yes who could forget the glittering 3s and raves in German.

Good post. Many of your points align with my thoughts above, Ghost. I think we're on the same wavelength.

No, that doesn't bother me.  But this is a far cry from "so much pitching going on, it's out of this world", which very well may bother me.

So, just to be clear, we're 10 days into this album leaking, and those complaining about pitch correction have yet to give a time stamp where it's obvious, notable or detracting, correct?

For those complaining about about pitch correction, you're using the wrong term, and there's a big difference. You either don't like the production, mastering or vocal effects used. You are not hearing "aut0tune" or pitch correction throughout the album.

As GF said, pitch correction is either undetectable or used for effect and obvious.

I would not be surprised in the least bit if they used pitch correction on the album. I just can't hear it. And those complaining about it probably can't either. And if they can, then please give a track and time stamp.

 I don't get the controversy on either side of this issue.  He used autotune. So what.

Did you miss the one that called it "Brian Wilson's best solo album ever"?

He didn't though that's the problem. And people can't stand it because of all the Autotune and its production. They perhaps would prefer this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_DjKX9zvXI.

Surprise!

“We had like 72 tracks to work with, plus computers and Pro Tools,” Wilson explains of the production methods used in the making of No Pier Pressure. “We can cut and paste things and go in and pitch correct something with the computer if the note is flat. I wish we had that in the 60s! It was awesome.” 

Do instruments play notes also?

I quoted that in my post...

And you don't hear it?  Can you hear the 15 kHz tone at the end of Sgt. Pepper's?

I dunno.

My point exactly. This is not the Live C50 CD.

I stand corrected. Well bravo to Brian for being open about it.
My only criticism of automobiletune is when its used in a way that I can tell it's there. IMO, it should be completely transparent when used correctly. My opinion stands for my feelings for BW, or any other artist using it, for that matter. I can hear it sometimes on NPP, and it's a production choice that frankly bugs me. That said, I can live with it as a nuisance; what other choice is there (short of refusing to listen entirely)?

Back on topic: I'm pretty bummed that Pitchfork gave NPP a mediocre review. I thought for sure they would like it just based on Zooey, Sebu, etc. who they positively gush over like there's no tomorrow. Trust me, I can't stand Pitchfork. I dislike their elitist hipster mentality, the albums they praise as brilliant I find trite and soulless, but they DO hold sway over that Coachella crowd (for better or worse) and their review will have more of an impact on impressionable young people than anything ever written on this board.   :-[

At least they praised a few tracks and ended the review on an upbeat note. Oh well.

Why in the world would you want a bunch of posers deciding they like Brian Wilson because Pitchfork told them to? 

To hell with 'em if they don't know a genius when they hear it.  :)

Because if names like Sebu, Zooey, et al would cause them to discover the album and thereby discover Brian Wilson, or at least discover something he had written post-SMiLE, I would've been all for it.

It isn't 1st time I see someone disliking Pitchfork. If you saw their list of 200 best 60s songs, you'd notice that it's not "elitist". Sure, there were some unique choices but so what? If anything, I liked the fact they didn't copy-paste the same top-rate names/songs into their list. Every mag should have their own  individuality; RS list isn't same as Mojo isn't same as NME etc. So they are cool. Re middling review - big deal. I like what I like & won't care even if the album received 0 stars. As some poster said smwr, nowadays, kids decide on their own if they should get an album or not. They listen to previews online, they're not into such a "boring thing" as reading reviews which are subjective anyway. That's the reality of XXI century.

I'l never get back the 30 minutes I spent reading this thread.  That's my fault; it's my problem.  I should note that I was listening to NPP during this time, and I completely enjoyed it.  Some songs more than others; I'm entitled to like what I like and dislike what I don't.  I agree that Brian's singing is the best I've heard from him in a long time.  Any use of Autotune didn't detract from my enjoyment of the album, though I feel it's brave of Brian to point out that it was used - pretty much all pop albums use it or overuse it as the case may be.

If someone doesn't like some or all of the album, that's their prerogative, their right.  They don't need to justify it, and those of you who want to argue to the death about it come across as insecure in your assessment of the album.  I chuckle when I hear some of you talk about an "agenda".  Just because someone doesn't like the album?  Or poor the poor guy who wondered if BW was playing his piano on Conan took so much grief for a not unreasonable question - even what looked like not-so-veiled threats of punishment from Mods.  (PS Brian played his piano when I toured with him on the 50th).

I've never heard anyone say anything truly malicious about Brian here or anywhere; he is loved and adored.  The perceived slights against Brian are blown way out of proportion here.

Just the other day someone listed Mike's instrument as "skin flute" and no one said a word against that.  Mike gets slandered and trashed on a regular basis and many of you think that is equal to wondering whether Brian played his piano.  I don't find those two examples to be of equal value.  I really feel that some of you are bullies.

And let me say for the record, I don't have a bias - Brian is my hero and I consider myself a Brianista - proudly so.  I just don't need to put everyone else down to justify it.

Scott

Scott, this Brian vs Mike mentality only exists in the warped minds of certain hardcore Brian fans, everyone else appreciates what both men have given us over the years.

If you haven't seen anything malicious about Brian on this board, you apparently never looked very hard. It is underhandedly *hinted* at time and time again here that Brian is a zombie who doesn't have any control over his life, much less his music, and that he's being forced into projects that he isn't into. I'd say that is pretty malicious.

While you're at it, could you ask Mike if he's gonna find any time to listen to the album? I'm sure he "hasn't had any time to" just like when "The Right Time" was first released. But regardless, tell Mike to try to get us that solo album he's planning before 2017! Why the long wait if he's basically just re-recording his older songs?

Better yet, please ask him to get Looking Back With Love and the Celebration albums a CD release if possible.

I wish! Especially the Celebration stuff. I highly doubt it though. At this point I'd even be happy if he used combined the best of his Celebration stuf ("Almost Summer", "How's About A Little Bit", etc.) and some Looking Back with Love stuff, along with some other material on a compilation and released that!

Scott-

  Before I get to the meat of my response, I do want to point something out...my issue with the aforementioned debate on whether or not Brian was playing the keyboard stemmed mainly from said poster claiming that Brian wasn't even touching the keyboard, and the inability to acknowledge the visual evidence. I admit I did go on too long with it, but in all honesty I felt I was being punked. In any case, we both dropped it.

As for the rest...I did miss the comment made about Mike's 'instrument', mainly because I haven't been online much over the past month or so  due to health issues...I certainly would've responded had I seen it. That said, I've spent an obscene amount of time here actually defending Mike, as my post history shows. I agree with you that there is no need to tear the 'other side' down in other to boost one's 'chosen side', and have stated as such many times. And to be perfectly frank, the only 'side' I myself am on is the music's, because at the end of the day, that's all I really care about.

You walk it like you talk it, Scott. Well said. If Mike trashes the album, it won't affect its sales. Because how? We have diff. ears.

Regarding Autotune: If someone pointed out its use on awesome Brian Wilson written tracks as "Midnight's Another Day", "Isn't It Time", or "Summer's Gone" to me, and even if I had to say, "gosh, you're right, I can hear it too now", that wouldn't diminish my enjoyment of those tracks in the least. Neither would it keep my foot from rocking during "Guess You Had To be There", my favorite NPP track. There is some kind of vocal processing detectable at some spots on NPP, but it isn't the reason I'm not connecting with most of its material. If the soundscape met my personal taste, the processed vocals wouldn't affect it.

I forgot to introduce myself. My full name is Even Johan Ottersland. So it's not Joe. Maybe I should have started out on a more postive note, I can see your point there. I did not intend to step on anybodies toes with my comment. I don't have an agenda. It was just my honest opinion, and people kept asking for examples.

I don't think positive or negative posts are necessarily valid. It depends on the reasons for making them. For example, if someone who believes Brian can do absolutely no wrong posts a positive review, it's pretty worthless. The review would have been good whatever the music was like. If someone who wants the surviving Beach Boys back together posts a bad review because of that (and I have seen more than one such review in which the reason given for dissatisfaction was that it didn't include Mike and Bruce) that is not a valid negative review either. The quality of the music is the issue here.

As for agendas, those who want the Beach Boys back together and are posting negative reviews because of that have an undeniable agenda - a pretty silly one since this isn't just down to Brian anyway.

I totally agree with the statement above. I'd like to add that the Gerswhin-album had some of the best vocal performances by Brian in recent times. I'd only wish it was his own songs.

You know, this is a real shitty title for such a dominant thread on this board. 'Many' negative reviews? I think they'd even out at about 3 out of five, which is what most of the more 'trusted' media outlets were giving it in the first place. And, it's probably what I'd give it too. I feel it could be improved immeasurably by reducing the number of songs; I could give a flying f*** about pitch correction and otto-tune because, in this instance, it doesn't affect my enjoyment; nothing will persuade me to enjoy the Thomas production, though I find it less of a pain than on Imagination; yeah, it's kind of like son of TWGMTR without the lyrical lows but with fewer of the musical highs; yes, I would've preferred Brian, Al and Blondie to do the whole album. It remains an awful lot better than I first thought it was going to be.

Does Brian have an agenda because he claims they used autotune on NPP?

Things that make you go "hhmmmm?".

Although better expressed than most, this may be one of the most inane threads of recent vintage, and that's saying something.

Thank f*** for common sense. No one can fart around here at the moment without a 5000 word response alleging a conspiracy theory. I spent an hour knocking out my own review of the album last night but have held it back fttb and bought shares in Kleenex - will post when they schedule a dividend announcement.

To Scott: Word.

To Cam: Listen to the album yet? Nahhhhh. Much rather keep stirring up sh*t and derailing threads.

No, to everything you mentioned.

My issue is with the poster who said Joe Thomas should commit suicide a week ago (maybe these people aren't saying anything truly malicious about Brian, but they certainly are about the people Brian chooses to work with). My issue is with the other poster who compared certain Brian fans to suicide bombers last month. My issue is with the posters who have nothing but a negative posting history about Brian. Brian is truly loved and adored? Take a look at Kittykat's posting history. In the last 6 months certain posters have claimed Brian doesn't have it in him to write a great song anymore. That he is a sellout for getting younger talent to sing on his new album. That his songwriting is subpar anymore. That he doesn't have a chance of getting on the radio anymore. One poster even called Melinda "Me-landy". That is love and adoration?

People are having a kneejerk reaction to the negativity because it's been going on unnecessarily since this project was announced. I know some people aren't going to like this album. I have said it before, in this thread, that there are posters here who I greatly respect who disike this album. Though I don't agree with them, I value their thoughts as to why they dislike the album. My irritation stems from months upon months of trolling behavior from certain posters who certainly act like they have an agenda (:beer). They have been pushing negative narratives ever since Brian released that 8 second Zooey clip.

This has nothing to do with people disliking the album. This has to do with posters who have nothing but a negative history of comments about Brian who are currently making ridiculous comments about all aspects of this album.

We live in an age of permanent backlash--a sad and seemingly unavoidable fact. Did the media start this, or did they pick it up from us once a general sense that the world was spinning out of control took hold, in (pick whatever year suits you), so that we would all be complicit in this primal tantrum?

What's clear about NPP is that it's a collection of songs that seeks to address psychic wounds and look for ways to heal them. Not paper them over, or treat them either superficially or meta-ironically. What we should be championing here is the fact that Brian's music--as always--wears its heart on its sleeve. That is why it's so valuable, even if it may not reach the same exalted heights of musical composition as Pet Sounds or Smile (or whatever).

That's still present. It's still intact. And it's the real reason why so many of us are here. We would do well to remind ourselves of this more often.

So you're going to continue posting and worrying about whether an album you have no interest in has autotune on it? Why?

Awesome. It saddens me when people reduce music to such and such chord changes, processing and "but it's not Pet Sounds." Brian shares his heart and soul in his music. You know, "there's a lot of love" in there, as he would say. It's okay not to relate to some of it musically, but let's not stomp the gift into the ground in the process of discussing it.

Hi all,

I like the fact that Brian consulted his children.  He asked his family and they said their preferences.  Daria did the album cover.  I like the fact that his children won't have confidence problems.  Peter, GF and Scott speak well.  I have yet to buy NPP.  I have heard some of the songs from it.  No Pier Pressure is Brian's gift to his children and to us.  I look forward to listening to NPP.

Some moronic internet joke about the skin flute is nowhere near as bullying, mean-spirited, and MALICIOUS as "Cousin Mike" claiming in interviews that BW is now controlled by prescription drugs instead of street drugs. I'm sure you guys have a good defense for that and will be listening to NPP while mounting it! Unlike say, Mike and Cam.

But lets not pretend it's "all about the music" with that level of nastiness on top of all the legal threats and bad blood. This is an incredibly dysfunctional family that knows all about agendas and bullying.

That it's reflected in the fandom shouldn't be surprising. Claiming the sneering and demeaning of Wilson doesn't exist while simultaneously moaning about the mocking of the Lovester seems like a serious case of tunnel vision. I suppose that's probably a given considering which payroll is involved, but the bile exists in both directions! Rab listed a few, do we really need to cut and paste all this gibberish to prove the point or will that be explained away with more hollow talk about it being alllll about the musssiiiic, man?

Who on earth posted these two comments?

Thanks Mikie, you are completely right. Whether I am right or wrong doesn't really matter, it boils down to whether or not I want to spend my time having to give examples to prove what I hear. Quite evidently some people here do not accept that notion.



Word. You and Scott said it, John.


Actually I want to common on one thing here. It's all well and nice that 'Brian shares his heart and soul' and that 'there's a lot of love in there', but to some of us music IS complex and/or clever chord changes, it IS production, it IS certain instrumentation, it IS complexity in arrangements - it IS what makes the music good to some of us. To me NPP fails on a lot of these points. That doesn't mean I do not respect and adore Brian Wilson, it just means I don't think NPP has the ingredients to what makes a great, or even a good album.

As I said earlier, others brought up the topics and off-topics and questions and I helped. I'm a helper. As I also thought I made clear, autotune doesn't make any difference to me. It is not good or bad, it is a tool. Others, I take it, are bothered by it I guess, I'm not sure.

Now just go ahead and tell me you are in love with me and that's why you keep engaging me with these already answered questions. Don't be bashful. Quit hiding your true feelings behind your silly name calling, cranky responses and questions and just shout it out for all to hear: "I love Cam!"  ;)

People are who they are, which is generally a collection of shades of grey.  Nobody is typically all the way one way or the other.

Then they hear the music, or the interviews, or the reviews, and they react to it in a shade of grey.  

When they write about that shade of grey, they get the shade wrong, because hell there's a lot of shades of grey.

Then everybody else reads it, and misinterprets the shade of grey.

Then we react to it in a shade of grey, and when we do, we express the shade wrong as well.

A lot of this is just miscommunication, and misunderstanding, if people are signed up to a Beach Boys message board that tells you how they feel about the Beach Boys.  


- "Zooey's vocals sound insipid"

"Insipid!  How could you???? He must be a Nazi!"

"No, no... I meant a little boring.  I actually like the song"

"Boring?  So Brian's cheating on his wife???"

"No, not THAT kind of bore-ing , I just meant that she sounds uninterested in the song"

"Uninterested?  That's her style!  Here's a 10 page dissertation on the singers she's trying to emulate!"

"On page 7 of your dissertation, you claim that Ella ate lunch with Basie often.  No she didn't!  Idiot."

Mods ban one poster for a week for calling the other poster an idiot

"I'm back, the Mods are trying to push an agenda supporting Carnie's new cooking show!"

"Well, I was there when Carnie filmed the first few shows and she insinuated VERY STRONGLY that Brian actually wrote "Runaway Dancer" in 1957."





None of us completely get our point across (did you understand even HALF of what I was trying to say with my post here?) and then the rest of us never completely understand what we're reading.  Since everybody's so passionate about the music it makes for a lot of dumb-ass posts.

I like this about it too. Very much.

Hey Billy - Sorry, I didn't mean to single any one out.  I know you well enough to know that you are a fan of the music, and unbiased when it comes to the band members.  I appreciate that about you.

Scott

Officially: It's not important who posted them, but they were both dealt with after the posts were reported. The one post mentioned above was deleted from the board almost immediately, as it should be and as similar comments will be any time someone crosses those lines.

Speaking for myself:

I'm happy to see this posted. I was going to post something in support of Billy in a different way than this, because it really didn't sit well to see even a passive suggestion that he was being labeled a "bully".

For the record, and this is pretty common knowledge among the membership, Billy is a genuine asset to this board. He is one of the reasons why it keeps on running year after year. A fair guy, a reasonable guy, and above all a truly great guy whom I'm happy to consider a friend. We talk things out, we sometimes disagree, but above all Billy is a genuinely good person. As there are and have been legitimate cases of "bullying" on the board among members, including through PM's and otherwise which we won't go into publicly, to see this situation somehow lead to Billy being even suggested as a bully was wrong, and I'm glad to see it's being set right.

That's in response to that issue. More to follow.

You are totally right about all that.  I wasn't referring to Billy when I mentioned bullying.

Scott

We are ALL fans of the music, Scott. Let there be no doubt about that. We're very passionate about it. ALL of us posting here are big fans of Brian and The Beach Boys.

Scott, tell Mike we love him, by the way!  I hope he doesn't have the impression nobody here gets it. 

This thread confirms that it's ok to pass judgement founded or not on Mike Love as a person and his work, while it's wrong to pass judgement (founded or not) on Brian's vocal processing or songwriting.

Speaking personally, I'm agin the sneering against and demeaning of any given band member. Remember, these are people like you and I (albeit considerably better off): they have feelings too.

I'd have to question that.

OK, let's single out who isn't a big fan and give them a public admonishment and hanging. Right here!

Well, sure. The technical proficiency of any work can be criticized objectively. Which is why I said there's no problem with being unable to relate to it, musically. But, a lot of people, it seems, are just jumping on a bandwagon here  to malign Brian's intent (boo audio processing, cash grab, attempt at relevancy, pushed into by the "wife and managers," hate Joe Thomas, etc etc). To me, that goes beyond discussion of the work's merits.

Brian recorded an album. He seemed to enjoy it. He shared it with us. We can, individually, like or dislike it. And that's really all. I don't get to tell Brian 2015 how to record like Brian 2015. I get to listen to the result and decide if I like it, but I also realize that my opinion is just my own. It isn't necessary to "convert" anyone to it. And, I  try to appreciate Brian's effort, regardless.

Again, speaking for and as myself:

Obviously a lot has happened in this thread since yesterday. What I'd like to reply to if not challenge directly are some of the follow-ups that seem to be referencing some of what I had written. In some cases, the replies are going directly against or opposite to what I actually wrote, suggesting things that are simply not there or that specifically were not written. I'm all for discussion and debate but let's keep the challenges relevant to what was actually said.

Nowhere at all did I in those posts call out "negative reviews" or suggest any problems with people simply not liking this new album or any other album. People like it, they don't like it, that's all part of the deal and it's perfectly fine.

My issues are where there are cases of criticisms being thrown at this or any other project that have no basis in fact, that are concerning peripheral issues that ultimately have nothing to do with the music, or those that ultimately are coming from those who are questioning or even directly critiquing the album who have not heard it.

See my earlier post for specifics. The cel phone video that was supposedly autotuned, the still frames of the movie showing the wrong car, the whole kit and kaboodle...just ridiculously banal little points which were used to criticize these and other projects before anyone had experienced them.

Is that being "all about the music"? Is that people who love the music giving it at least a fair shot before finding something to knock it down?

When there was a multi-page discussion about Brian playing or not playing the piano on Conan's show last week, where were the suggestions that this non-issue had nothing to do with the music itself? Was it a good performance? Did people like it? Or did they not like it, and why? No...instead, it became Brian wasn't playing the piano. Now take that as a subjective or objective look at the video itself. Brian played the piano, fact, end of story. Those who watched and posted video of it proved it, right?

So in that case, a claim was made and actual video proof was posted to back up that claim. Simple as that. Yet it kept on and on...a similar thing happened a day or so before that, where some of the songwriting got called into question regarding recycling and referencing. Some facts were laid out, it didn't matter.

The whole notion of that felt like the argument was more important than getting to what was the truth of those situations. For some, that's important. Maybe some don't like to see false impressions being promoted as the way things are because it detracts from others enjoyment of the music.

So is it really "all about the music" if discussions about playing piano, how Brian gets up from a chair, the mysterious autotune, ghost-writing interviews, etc are made the focus of the discussion?

That interview - the one that was pretty in depth and in my opinion pretty revealing too...how about that case? There were almost immediate follow ups that focused on the notion that the words did not come from Brian, that they were doctored, edited, punched up by a ghost writer to make for better copy. Then the discussion turns to that instead of what was actually said.

Who was there in that case to say "it's all about the music"? Fans reading are supposed to do what exactly, sit back silent as people here not only insist Brian wouldn't have said those words because he's a "bad interview" from past examples, but to also have the guts to post with nary a sense of humor what the interview *should* have been printed based on what Brian actually said.

So the words and the messages of that interview itself became meaningless, to be instead replaced by a charge that Brian didn't say them and they were punched up by a ghost writer. Then we argue and have to defend that instead of taking in what the piece actually said...which was a pretty damn good interview.

That's what we want? That's keeping it "all about the music"? No, it's distract, divert, denigrate, and by the time it's done the whole point has been filibustered out of the common discussion.

Is that similar to what has happened in other situations here, specifically some others related to the projects from Brian Wilson in 2014-15 and beyond? Some posters think so and called it as such.

The focus of my earlier 5,000 word post (cheers...) was on these examples. Right out of the gate I said I would not be filibustered into discussions surrounding "but they do it too..." kind of peripherals, yet that's EXACTLY what some of the replies so far have been.

I also did not at any time say these were issues with negative reviews or reviewers. Like it or don't like it, whatever floats your boat. But the issue is judging it on an "it's all about the music" level as some are saying we all should be operating on. Bringing up autotune that to this date no one has found a specific intrusive or distracting use of that we could all check out for ourselves, bringing up playing or not playing a piano, saying a chord progression or melody is recycling Kokomo...are any of those critiques or observations based on fact? That's not even addressing those who haven't played the whole record...if it's all about enjoying the music, ENJOY IT FIRST or at least experience it on your own before bringing in questions about autotune and making comments about the production and otherwise. My God, that's common sense, isn't it?

Speaking of the album...what happened to those who were saying it was "synth heavy" or loaded with synthesizers, or similar suggestions about synth sounds on this new album? Apart from Runaway Dancer which used synths because it is such a genre-specific song...

Where are the synths? As I pointed out in my review and other posts, the overwhelming majority of instrumental sounds are real instruments played by real musicians. In no way is this record "synth heavy", much the same as this record is in no way loaded up with autotune and pitch correction to where it is an obvious distraction. If those who said it was or would be "synth heavy" can find examples, like those who said the pitch correction was all over this record, can you give at least a few examples so we can try to hear where you're coming from and judge for ourselves?

Again, how is it part of "it's all about the music" to read comments before and after the album's release saying it was heavy with synths when that is blatantly false information that can be heard by simply listing to the music itself? Should we let that slide too? All opinion, all good, right? Not if it's blatantly false and giving a false impression of the music itself.

Maybe some more attention should be paid to just the music. More focus on the experience, on the effect of that experience.

- So we can enjoy and digest interviews without having to debate if they were ghost-written.
- So we can enjoy seeing a video of Brian, Al, Blondie, Ricky, and Billy performing live on stage without having to discuss how Brian got up out of a chair.
- So we can enjoy an album without debating falsehoods like "synth heavy" and full of distracting usage of pitch correction.
- So we can enjoy a film without debating whether or not a prop car in a still frame is the right one before the film was even given a final edit.
- So we can enjoy Brian himself coming to this board specifically to answer YOUR questions without having to debate whether or not it was really him answering and whether or not the questions were screened and edited in advance.
- So we can listen, watch, and read on our own without having false impressions and false information affect our perceptions of something before we've had a chance to experience these things on our own terms.

If that's the kind of "it's all about the music" vibe we all want, then maybe some attempts to actually make it that way versus the kind of things above are in order.

Craig, I think Scott's issue was that there is a double standard here. You rarely react in the same way when other BBs recieve unfair criticism-- unless you believe that most of it is fair, which i don't think you do, then it IS a double standard.

Highlighted this because I was one of the people who said that the song had parts of the verse sounding similar to Kokomo (although I never used the term 'recycled'). A simple listen to the two songs proves that it is fact. Nowhere was it implied by me or Rubbersoul that this was a negative observation - just an observation. It's rather telling that a dozen or so people can comment on The Right Time having a few lines with a very similar sounding chorus to that of Lay Down Burden without people getting their noses bent but mention that Tell Me Why has a dash of Kokomo melody in a few bars and watch the hackles come up!

And this was exactly what I posted to address that issue, and I'd hope those trying to accuse me or anyone of a double standard had read this before making those claims:


My posts are speaking "about this notion alone", just to further reinforce that point. It's kind of disappointing to see how, in spite of making that very clear from the outset, the conversation shifted into *exactly* what I went out of my way to clarify ahead of time. That's either a case of not reading or not caring about what I wrote, or wanting to push a charge of having a double standard on me and making me take a defensive stance on those points over discussing the points I was bringing up.

So that's the choice, I suppose. I tried to be as clear about staying specific to the points I outlined in my posts, and exactly what I said I wouldn't be sidetracked into is what some replies are trying to sidetrack this into becoming.

Do we want to address, discuss, debate, refute...etc any of the issues I brought up, or try to put me on the defensive and cajole me into defending myself against a charge of applying a double standard? Because the latter is exactly what's being done. Address the points and issues on the table, or put me on the defensive?

With all due respect, GF, I think you're taking these criticisms way too seriously. As I mentioned earlier, there are Negative Nellies on every single message board about anything. There's nothing special about Smiley Smile. I've seen far worse things said about other members of bands on other forums. The best anyone can do is say "that's not true, and here's why.." and then let it go. They don't need long screeds about how much they're wrong, because they don't care. It's a no-win situation. Their minds are made up and no matter what you write, it's not going to change anything, and frankly you'll only just drive yourself crazy and the debate will spin wildly out of control. It's not like what's written here is a private conversation. Everybody can read it and make up their own minds.

Believe me, I used to hang out at "Paul Is Dead" message boards and present elaborate timelines and scientific information disproving that Paul was dead. Nobody was ever swayed by what I wrote. Instead, they just accused me of being on McCartney's payroll (I wish!). It's useless to get into these kind of arguments.

Craig, keep up the good work.  Your posts make sense to me, and I agree 100%.  I don't care if someone else likes or dislikes any album.  In the case of NPP, I know I like it, and that's all that matters to me.  And who else cares if I like it?  No one.  As it should be.  I have learned to ignore the posts of certain posters who constantly set off my B.S. radar.  Perhaps I should take a more active role here, and call out the B.S. when I see it, as you do so well.  But you just saw what happens when some of these people are challenged to defend their claims with facts or examples.  They don't have the time or they change their stories or they try to turn it around.  I can see right through it, and many others here can, as well.  This board has slowly changed over the years.  I'm not sure why there is so much negativity here these days.  But there is a lot of it, and it's growing tiresome.  I don't want to argue about who produced what, who wrote what, how much pitch correction was used, because I don't know.  And only a handful of people do know, and they don't post here much.  Thank goodness we have Ray and Debbie and a couple others who actually do know Brian come by here and give us their thoughts.         

The problem is, you have here a dedicated group that has made it their mission, their singular purpose, to paint Brian Wilson in a patently untrue light. It has ranged from suggesting he is manipulated in a multitude of ways, to insinuating that he can't sing, that he can't play his instrument, that he doesn't write his songs, that he is a husk of a man.

These things are seldom stated outright. So someone like Scott can come by and see, sure, there's no one saying obviously horrible things about BW. So what's the problem? The problem is that through keeping up this line of preposterous suggestion, day in and day out, this same group of a half dozen posters manage to actually shape debate on this board to dealing with their nonsensical concern-trolling.

Such fictions used to be accepted. But now folks, including GF (most admirably) are calling them on it. Because we know better. The game is up, and they are losing. Sadly, it's at times like this that they can be the most dangerous.

Watch yourselves, kids.

An honest and direct reply to this, as it deserves:

This board can be terrific. It has been at times perhaps the best and most informative music-related forum I've ever seen. It can reach those heights. How many other forums or message boards can boast the number of people who know what they're talking about and can back it up, not to mention actual band members, published writers, musicians, etc. It can be that good again.

There are a lot of really, really good people here in spite of the noise and static sometimes drowning them out. Both in numbers and in volume.

Perhaps if you've invested as much time and effort as I and others have put into this place, into doing things for this place, into contributing to this place, into the whole notion of trying to make this place what it can be when it's firing on all cylinders, then what you wrote above could be taken the wrong way.

There is something special about Smiley Smile, and there always has been. It's in the community, it's in the people who care about and enjoy it, and it's something about having such a place to meet up and hang out that makes it special.

What other Beach Boys forums or media offer this? Why is this place still going while others have either faded away or become shells of what they used to be participation-wise? That's what makes this place different.

I don't like reading how this board isn't anything special. That's false. If there are attempts to denigrate it, to bring the kind of stuff in that makes it no different than a "Paul Is Dead" forum, than I'll respond exactly as I did in this thread.

But don't say this place is no better than one of those Paul-Is-Dead type of forums. That's wrong. People who have been coming here know better.

If it can be made better, if some things that don't serve this board's future are playing out that some think could be called out, then that's what an open forum does.

You've used the term "McCarthyism", GhostyTMRS, to describe part of this forum. Do you care about it or the people here at all? Or is it just another place like any other forum, and that's how it should be? Nothing good, nothing bad, just a place that exists where truth and lies coexist on an equal plane...

I don't agree with that. This board could be great, it has been great, there is a lot that has been done and a lot to be done. If it's time to write it off an throw in the towel, it will be just as mediocre and come to as unceremoniously bad a slow end as other boards related to the Beach Boys have come.

That's why I take it somewhat seriously, and i don't care to see people throwing sh*t at it.

You have a lot to say in challenging me directly in recent months, where were you when all of the other things were going on that did in fact take this place to the depths of those other boards? Do you want this place to fail and wither away, or do you want it to exist for the people who like having a place to hang out?

Thank you LostArt and Wirestone for adding your voices and thoughts to this discussion. I appreciate very much reading your comments, and agree with what you are saying.

You know, it’s funny how Scott laid it out there with these statements that actually echoed the thoughts and posts of mine (and a couple of others) earlier in this thread. And those thoughts failed to be acknowledged until Scott came along and then they were somehow legitimized. The same ones who thanked Scott for coming by with his thoughts ignored what I had to say above about having a right to dislike a few songs on NPP without having to justify it. You still don't get it. There's NO Agenda or “people on a mission” to destroy NPP or Brian. That’s a bunch of crap! What the hell would that gain a poster here (other than a bad rep)? People go out on a limb here to post unpopular thoughts and get ridiculed for it. Then you call B.S. if someone doesn't justify their stance. You call B.S. about Ottotune. You call B.S. to the Joe Thomas naysayers. You call B.S. unless everyone gets on their knees and bows to Brian with only positive thoughts about NPP and everything and everybody else associated with it. And I also don’t see a conspiracy here to “put down Brian one notch on a pedestal”. Just ain’t happenin’ here, ya know? We're all just a bunch of rabid, dedicated, passionate fans and that's it! But there's gotta be an effing conspiracy, right? Oswald acted alone - so much for your conspiracy theory! No shooter was on the grassy knoll or anywhere else except the TSBD building! Shock! But....but.......where's the evidence to support my findings??

Brianista Mike

Can someone recap everything that has happened since yesterday??  I unfortunately don't have time to read all of these posts, but I am starting to ponder, WHAT HAVE I DONE??
 :beer

I meant "special" in the sense that you can't expect people here to behave any differently than on any other message board. As long as you've got an open door policy regarding who can join, you're going to see that. Should people be vetted before they're allowed to join? Perhaps answer a Beach Boys quiz or something? Well, it would probably cut down on a lot of what you're upset about.

Yes, "McCarthyism" or "bullying". It seems all too often people are accused of having an agenda or being part of a conspiracy. No, they're just trolls or they're people who just don't like NPP for whatever reason. And we even have some people who are beginning very reasonable reviews of NPP by stating that they don't have an "agenda" but they don't like the album and here's why..and blah blah. It should never have come to that point.    

As to the depths this board has sunk to in the past, I remember some guy freaking out on here and posting Nazi atrocity pictures. I kept my distance for a while after that, and I'm not terribly intestested in every single thread that goes on here, so I'm bound to miss a lot.

I agree Mikie, it's just insane. I really don't understand what people would gain from being "anti-Brian Wilson" or whatever. Where's the reward? I'm sure there are trolls like on any other message board, but I bet 98% of the members of this board are true Beach Boys fans. And I think it's ridiculous that just because I have not given any specific examples on places on NPP where vocals have been tuned (which btw two other people have done further up the thread), that makes me one of the people with a so-called agenda, making up excuses and what not? Pfft. I have the right to choose how I spend my time. I've been a fan of Brian Wilson and the boys for about 20 years, having about 5-600 CDs/LPs, and now because I criticize something that in my opinion is a poor piece of art, I'm the bad guy. Nah, I think I've done my share of supporting Brian Wilson throughout the years, whether that's by buying records, seeing him live several times, in posting here or the Smile Shop board, the old blue board, in the Cabinessence chat, and so on, to be able to also post my opinion and critique when I think it's due.

Thanks so much for addressing this issue so thoroughly and competently GF.  What you are doing takes a lot more patience than most of us have (if not all of us).  You also display more guts and willingness to endure the predictable but annoying responses, somehow without getting sucked into the mire.  We appreciate your efforts.

Hmmmmm, If I remember correctly, wasn't it you who first stated that Brian's words had been ghost written in the Billboard article? I notice that out of all Craig's laundry lists of issues you fail to mention that one.

Just a quick note to address prescribed medications. Brian's current medication regimen is minimal, compared with the second Landy period. For people with mental health diagnoses, most of them are due to a chemical imbalance in the brain. Prescribed medications bring the brain's biochemistry into balance. In this sense, medications for mental health condition function as a wheelchair does for someone with a mobility impairment, as orientation and mobility training does for someone with blindness, or as American Sign Language does for a personal with a bilateral hearing impairment. Brian is someone whose medication regimen is remarkably light for someone with his diagnosis.

Do you know what else is predictable but annoying? This
(http://previews.123rf.com/images/blamb/blamb1406/blamb140600072/28815119-A-happy-cartoon-cheerleader-jumps-and-cheers-and-waves-pom-poms--Stock-Photo.jpg)
everytime your fingers hit the keyboard.

Ah, yeah, I see. The good ol' polarizing and divisive "us against them" mentality.   ::)

Don't have the time to read this thread in its entirety right now, but I was somewhat surprised at its title - over the past 10 days I rather had the experience of reading mildly positive to ecstatic reviews everywhere. Online, print (newspapers, magazines) and radio. Maybe it's just my small island of the world, but from the media reports washing ashore here and direct human contact to people listening to the record I can honestly say: NPP is a success with most homo sapiens.

Jesus. No need for that at all.

This whole thing is getting really old. Love and mercy, for fucks sake

Seriously, no need for that at all. Totally unnecessary to go there. So much for taking the topics and points made which are on the table. Now it's resorting to taking personal swipes.

Is this the board you want? I sure as hell don't.

To see these things after trying to lay out where I stand, trying to get into the topics at hand...look, I can take it and give it back if it gets personal, but this isn't welcome at all.

Can't address the topics at hand, so take a personal swipe instead? Nope. Not cool.

I did address a topic and you completely ignored it.

What topic? I'll address it. Can't catch everything. I still have more to say about the autotune claims, just haven't gotten around to posting it yet.

I mentioned the Tell Me Why having a few melody lines similar to Kokomo. Also (and I don't know why I'm sticking my balls in the meat grinder for saying this) Right Time features a fair bit of Robo Al in the verses. Not that I care as such, Right Time is one of the songs I really like off NPP, but you want examples of 'tuna or other pitch correction.

Which part?

Are you really Mike's "Beard" ?

Nope but all the great names like Gerry were already spoken for.

So which one are you? The spanker or the spankee?

Kinda funny but mostly sad,
Kinda good but moslty bad,
I really miss that thing we had

Looking out to sea,
We'll perfect our chemistry
By and by we'll defy

It's small but it's there. You can easily sing one over the top of the other.

I'm the guy filming it.

You have to be joking

What a shocker, you disagree.  ::)

Some folks just can't stand the thought of anything Brian did being related to Kokomo in any way.

It's not as if anyone is claiming one is a direct rewrite of the other, just that the opening 3 lines of both their verses are sung to a rather similar melody.

Haven't noticed...now i can't wait til I get home to check!

I love Kokomo, that has nothing to do with it. I could not care if he re-recorded it and called it Brian's at the Beach.

They are not even the words of the fucking song anyway, so if you want to raise an issue at least get the details right!!

And do you really want me to pick this apart? Seriously stop taking the piss!

Okay, calling moderators: could it be the right time for this topic to be locked?  I've unleashed a monster...  Terribly sorry for making everyone squabble.

A legit comment on the music though: One thing I noticed production wise is a noticeable vocal artifact in This Beautiful Day during the "oh's".  Did anyone else pick that up?  I feel whoever mixed it forgot to put on a pause.  That moment where it happens throws the song off in my opinion.  Love the falsetto though.

What time is that? I missed it.

About 1:00 into it I think...

Speaking as a moderator: No, I'm not in favor of locking topics. Give everyone a say, address what is being discussed, etc. Open forum.

What I do need to address officially, and it's never something easy to do nor is it pleasant, is offer a reaction and decision to what happened earlier today in this topic. *No one* should be made to feel like they were ganged up on or bullied, and in this case on the page before this one, that's exactly what happened. We got the posts reported, looked at what had happened, and had to weigh the facts and the history. Therefore, after a huddle, it has been agreed to give time outs from the board in response to posts on page 12 (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,20337.msg511480.html#msg511480 (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,20337.msg511480.html#msg511480)), and as part of a history that's been taking place in recent weeks both on and off the board.

If we want to talk about bullying, people being made to feel like they've been attacked personally especially in repeat situations, if it was asked that it stop and those requests not respected, then it's time to step in. Maybe this isn't in line with what everyone might agree with, or what has happened in the past, but it's what is happening now. This personal sniping taken beyond a certain point, to where board members feel like they've been singled out and attacked, has to end. It's not welcome, it won't be welcome, and it will be dealt with.

No one should be made to feel like they've been singled out or targeted on this board to the extent it had reached.

Not sure my ears can't hear anything untoward. I think I heard one in Last song though.

I dont know how else to describe it...  It seems like BW's note changes so fast when the backing vocals come in, that it sounds unnatural...

Its an edit record!..... One vocal take spliced into another, I guess maybe.

The one watching through the keyhole?  >:D

This thread, which started out discussing media reviews on the album, has become sweet insanity...

A couple of points regarding Auto-tune...

People, including moderators, have been discussing its use on Brian`s and The Beach Boys` albums for years. It`s hardly a new thing.

And I posted a link to a review by Andrew Hickey yesterday in which he comments, `Joe Thomas is an “adult contemporary” producer and writer, and so when Brian Wilson collaborates with him, you get something “adult contemporary” — glossy, shiny, with too much processing on the vocals.` If he`d posted that on this board then presumably he would have been dismissed as having an agenda.

Also, any new poster coming to this board should be welcomed and shouldn`t be made to apologize for posting an opinion. If the moderators are going to clamp down on anything then that`s where they should be starting imo.

Very different melodies.

It's vocal modification. Not exclusive to just pitch correction but sweetening through the use of digital reverb/manipulation. Have any of you guys ever listened to Sly Stone? That man used  alot  of reverb on vocal tracks.  Brian (or the Great Oz behind the curtain *boogie**boogie*) has made the decision to manipulate his voice in a few ways. Were people bitching about this stuff with Surfs Up? Sunflower? Are we to believe Mike Love's voice automatically adds reverb? Should Brian Record to a mono track and isolate it from the other voices so we know it's authentic?

If you have a decent surround sound system, do yourself a favor and listen to the album on whatever setting your amp allows (I like PLII). The album opens up a little and you can appreciate the components. Brian, Joe, the 'Man on the Grassy Knoll', et. al have made this album and it's (at least) interesting, maybe even enjoyable.

I don't expect the album to please everyone, it's no Framptom Comes Alive.  ;)  But I have a hard time believing the producers are somehow ignorant of the way voices are presented on the album. Everybody does it; McCartney does it, Kanye Does it, even Dolly Parton, and you know she can definitely sing. This is just the state of modern recording.

 

Really do try the surround sound stuff if you haven't already.

Absolutely so it is all about how well people think it is being done. I would much rather have a vocal that sounds good and has been modified rather than the alternative.

Certainly a valid subject to be discussed though and how natural the vocals do or don`t sound has certainly been brought up in the reviews numerous times.

Was it where sweetdudejim called me Ted Cruz again?

I've been thinking you got yourself a personal troll, Cam. :-D

BTW, will you run for president? ;D

I'm very flattered but I'm too busy being adorable on here.

I think processing is the perfect word. Vocal processing is audible on pretty much every vocal track. The a-word has just been used as a catch-all term to describe this processing.

Indeed.

This is all so sad. You can't even enjoy the album by the guy. I hope Brian reads this and says"f*** it" and goes back to bed. Then you can argue over a new set of bedroom tapes

Look who drives these threads, it's British M&B fanboys like AGD and Nicko1234. They have an agenda and will drag anybody here under the bus who calls them out on it.

Oh no, it doesn't work that way. We don't move the goalposts and change the parameters in the middle of the game.

Let's talk specific to this album, for one. The past is the past.

Many have insisted and argued that there is specifically "autotune" or pitch correction heard very audibly all over this album.

Now it's being nuanced into saying it's instead "vocal processing"? Bullshit.

There is a fundamental and sonic difference between the two that has been pointed out and described ad nauseum on this board by people who know the difference having actually used these things firsthand in recording and mixing.

Vocal processing has been on each and every Beach Boys related album since the first one. It's on everything from a radio broadcast to the most slick produced album. That has been made absolutely clear. Nothing recorded and replayed is put out "dry" with no effects, nothing. period.

The word "autotune" has been specifically used and used often in these discussions, along with pitch correction, often as a critique or as a loaded word, and often when it is simply not audible on what it's being used to describe.

Now it's been changed to vocal processing? All those crying "autotune!" that then began saying "pitch correction!" are now being explained away or attempted to be validated by suggesting they didn't know, but really meant to say "vocal processing"?

Horsefeathers. That isn't going to fly.

Let's say someone takes a bite of a hamburger, makes a disgusted face and says "damn, they used way too much mustard on that burger, I told them not to put mustard on it, I can't eat this." You see the burger yourself, notice there is not a drop of mustard but only some ketchup, and say to them "but there is no mustard on that burger at all, it's ketchup." The person looks at the burger, indeed you are right, there is no mustard on that burger.

Would that person then be able to justify it by saying "well, I didn't mean mustard specifically, I meant to say they used too many condiments on this burger" ?

No, friend, you specifically said they used too much mustard. If you don't know the difference between ketchup and mustard, and aside from any medical malady where one cannot taste food at all, you're just wrong.

The specific claims and charges and accusations were that autotune and pitch correction was or would be all over this album, some even said that before even hearing the whole thing.

There are enough explanations and even audio examples on this board alone to define what autotune and pitch correction does, how it works, and what it can sound like in various forms and uses.

If someone specifically says "autotune/pitch correction" (mustard), it doesn't get nuanced and parsed into "vocal processing" (ketchup) to help hammer that square peg of a claim into a round hole so it seems to fit.

Another example. Nice try.

I agree, let's not move the goalposts. Brian said “We can cut and paste things and go in and pitch correct something with the computer if the note is flat. I wish we had that in the 60s! It was awesome.” 

I am OH SO completely impressed by ALL of the negative comments made both here and from afar about how short No Pier Pressure is on quality, talent and integrity.  I realize now that my glowing endorsement of the album was based on my simple-minded appreciation of the kind of music and arrangements which caused most of us to be fans of Brian Wilson in particular and the Beach Boys as a collective force way back in the days of 45s and mono albums.

In today's marketplace No Pier Pressure is clearly sub-standard trickery with nary a hint of anything which would give it even a pinch of value in this the 21st century where mp3s pound the ever-loving piss out of wave files and vinyl.

This negativity is impressive to the extreme.  You, of that ilk, have opened my eyes and my ears to the point that I now realize that this 'sound' I had come to love way back in 1963 was really nothing more than a life-long mistake.

I am SO ashamed. :lol

Go piss up a rope.

I'll reply as a tip of the cap to your regular debate/discussion style, Cam.   ;D

Did he say "we can", or "we did" go in and pitch correct something if the note is flat?

Did he say "pitch correct something", or "pitch correct vocals", or "pitch correct instrumental tracks"?


"we can" is not "we did", nor is it specific if it does actually mean 'we did' pitch correct something to what was pitch corrected.

Why assume it was vocals and not a bass note or a guitar line that suffered from spotty intonation higher up on the neck? Hell, I've pitch corrected those things before myself. Guitar, bass, pedal steel, etc.

But we'd rather assume it's vocals being described, because that fits, is that it?

Assuming too, of course,  that being able to do something (i.e. 'we can') is now the same thing as actually doing something (i.e. 'we did')

1. Brian claims to have used pitch-correcting software. Is such pitch-correcting noticeable? And if so: does it hinder one's listening experience? Some people's answer is yes.

2. There's effects and voice editing that some people find problematic. Not me. When referring to this issue, some people in their ignorance mention autotune.

3. There is an insecurity in many BW fans. And it shows upon every new release. There's an urge to debate whether Brian's responsible for the artistic decisions, his input in the songwriting, if he's being manipulated, and so forth. This insecurity can be questioning or defensive. We've seen examples of both here.

4. I'll repeat what I've already said. His live vocals have been extremely uneven, rarely flawless, many times sub-standard for decades now. As much as his performance may improve off stage and in the studio, it's highly unlikely that vocals of the high quality we hear in NPP are brought to us without some heavy editing/processing and, yes, pitch correcting. Does this notion hinder my listening experience? No. He's just using the means at his disposal to develop his music in the best possible way.

To be fair, Brian did not say that he used it on the album, only that he can.  Perhaps he was talking about the early demos, where he and others don't have the time to sing a part over and over to get it just right.  Do a take for demo purposes, tune it up to see how it sounds, and then when recording the vocals for the album, get to work on getting it just right without using the pitch correction.  Kacey Musgraves said that Brian would have her do take after take to get it just right.  Why pay for all that studio time to get it just right, when they can simply fix it in the mix?

"Driving these threads" ?  Not a clue what this means but I'm pretty sure I'm not doing it.

Now, disregarding your infantile notion that anyone who doesn't agree with you must have the legendary AGENDA, my agenda, if such it be, is to correct to the best of my ability errors and misinformation (also flat out lies), not boring the tits off anyone in the process by having more than the one cracked cylinder to play. I happen to actually like this band - all of them - and most of the music they've made since 1961. So do most others posters here.

Agreed. 

So you're willing to totally dismiss, discount, if not throw away entirely the word of people who were actually there and directly involved in the recording process who said Brian was very meticulous in how the recording of his vocals were done, with him doing take after take - live - on the vocals, sometimes line by line or phrase by phrase, to ensure they were exactly right? That would include pitch, phrasing, and feel? That's what he had the Beach Boys do in the 60's, and which they described in numerous interviews especially around Pet Sounds where he'd have them track line by line until it was "just right".

You must not see your own bias coming into this or something, where the assumption you're putting forth is that it's highly unlikely Brian could "cut it" vocally to create the kind of sounds we hear on the album because his live vocals have sounded a certain way or have been inconsistent. That's suggesting he wouldn't be able to cut a vocal in the studio to a high standard, therefore "help" would be needed. I say, hogwash.

Live, you get one take and one take only, continuous and uninterrupted start to finish. Studio, you can break it down phrase by phrase and re-do and re-take as often or as many times as you want in order to get it just right. Apples and oranges.

For the record, some live singers don't do well at all in the more controlled studio recording process, and vice versa. It's always been that way. Others come in and get on the mic and nail it first take, like they were in front of a large audience. There is no template, no standard way of how singers work in either setting. That's music 101.

Specific to NPP, ask some of those who were there about how the vocals were tracked and mixed. That's all it comes down to.

Right, exactly right. And why do take after take to zero in on getting the right pitch and phrasing to the degree that they did if it were going to be autotuned or pitch corrected to the degree some are suggesting? You wouldn't be that critical about getting accurate pitch and phrasing on individual live takes if it all could be fixed in the mix with autotune or pitch correction to the degree that it would be as audible or as much of a distraction as some suggest.

I guess we're the only ones to see the common sense and logic of the process, or something.

In this case, if you're grilling food and it's done cooking to your satisfaction, you don't take a piping hot steak off the grill and put it in the microwave to cook even more before serving it, it would be redundant. or something.  ;D

AGD, your agenda is to bully anybody who disagrees with you on any issue and bash  Brian and Melinda Wilson for your buddy Mike Love. Stop playing the neutral historian card, because it's not true at all. You trying to rewrite the end of the C50 and the Wally heider incident for Mike Love proves it.

Is it really so "sad" and weird that not every album by any particular artist is universally enjoyed by all of that artist's fans?  The list of musicians that have put out music that doesn't at least have *some* disagreement as to its quality relative to their other albums is pretty short, if not nonexistent.

Once the alleged Heider incident was examined, turned out there was one source for it, i. e. Negron's autobiography. No one else made any such specific claim in over thirty-odd years. TDN experts have said the session dates don't fit. Thus, questionable.

As for trying to rewrite the end of C-50, that's your baby. I'm just reporting what was said in the media at the time.

Bashing Melinda & Brian ? I don't call them talentless jerks, vile scum or similar charming phrases that others have applied to Mike here and elsewhere. I happen to think she's not been the best manager over the years, but I'm not alone in this. Didn't originate the phrase "wifeandmanager". Nor do I attempt to derail any given thread with a juvenile tirade, regardless of the subject. Might be many unsavoury things, but I'm not a troll like you.

The heider incident is not questionable for those who truly know in the BBs circle. Plus the whole C50 set end date stuff you you always parrot has an agenda indeed. You said you have spoken with Mike Love in person many times in person since 2011 in another thread. Which means you are the most unsavory thing indeed, an employee for Mike Love

OK, well back to square one then.

We need a clarification or an out right declaration from Brian and or Joe instead of an argument between competing ears. Maybe Ray could ask Brian or the Mods could arrange a Q & A with Joe or maybe Brian will return for another Q & A and we can ask. They will probably wonder why anyone cares but ........

Your hatred has made you blind for reality - AGD hasn't said a bad thing about NPP yet other than he dislikes one or two female guest artist's vocals. Apart of that, he praises the new album. So accusing him of "driving these threads" is a plain lie.

Pointing out that someone has a specific nationality in a dissing phrase is an insulting generalization too. So you're also a nationalist? Suits the way you act in general.

I've also spoken many times in person to Bruce, David and even Brian since 1985. Guess I'm on their payroll too.  ;D

Seriously, you should get some proper help for your rampant delusions. Equally seriously, stop telling lies about me. Mike and/or his management have never paid me for anything whatsoever, any more than Brian has, and I've been arguing his side since 1975. That you have to stoop to such tactics speaks volumes, as does your hiding behind a pseudonym while spewing your bile. Got something to say ? Take the mask off, stand up and say it in clear view. Until then, keep on trolling.

Cam, in case you missed this on the previous page, I'll repost it:

It's this kinda warped crap that keeps me coming back to this train wreck of a thread for another dose of rubbernecking.

So what if you met Bruce and Dave while talking to Landized BW once in 1985, your main employer is Mike Love and source of your "facts" from club Kokomo.

Since it came up, recall there was a specific discussion about this Heider/Redwood incident where it was in fact examined and any claims of the stories being questionable or apocryphal were aired out. I'll find the link to that discussion if necessary. It happened at Heider's, and more than just Negron can and have said who was there and involved. I don't mind hashing out the details, but this has been gone over already with the word of more than one of the direct participants adding to it.

Anyone interested in reading as much about the Redwood incident as you'll likely find anywhere else, citing at least two others besides Negron who were there at Heiders that day, click here on this link, then if interested work a few pages back and a few pages forward of that thread. The exploration of the Redwood/Heider "incident" in full-blown detail:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,18454.msg482585.html#msg482585 (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,18454.msg482585.html#msg482585)

This is from a disinterested observer, sir, or ma'am, or sonny.  You are not doing your credibility any favors.  You sound as if you are 12 years old.  Please stop this juvenile nonsense. 

Well said Add Some.

Here is a garbage review, if there ever was one.  I encourage you to comment on how terrible it was.  >:D 

http://www.saukvalley.com/2015/04/13/review-beach-boy-brian-wilson-falls-short-of-low-bar-on-no-pier-pressure-grade-d-plus/a3a8xlc/ (http://www.saukvalley.com/2015/04/13/review-beach-boy-brian-wilson-falls-short-of-low-bar-on-no-pier-pressure-grade-d-plus/a3a8xlc/)

For your information, you sadly deluded fool, my main and only employer is William Hill Ltd., as is common knowledge here for some years. You actually wrote that because I've talked with Mike several times since 2011, that means he's my employer. According to this perverse logic, then I'm also in the employ of Bruce, David, Brian, Thabo MBeki, Bill Bryson, The Honeys and Adam Marsland. But you keep right on digging that hole. It's what you're good at. Really, really good at. It's like watching a toddler pitching a temper fit, screaming and stamping their feet.  Hugely amusing...  ;D

BTW, I've talked with Brian more than once in 1985. You're implying I'm lying when I said many times ?j

Being serious, you're saying that Mike's management is telling me what to say here and paying me to post it. A simple yes or no will suffice.

wow that was a horrible review...he didn't actually talk about the songs he just made a short review that has NO detail...

Wow. This Auto-tune nonsense has gone waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too far...

It is mentioned in dozens of reviews of the album in the media and so clearly will have been used as a `catch-all` term by plenty of people. Basically to mean that whatever has been done to the vocals has made them sound worse to the listener (in their opinion).

To compare it to the hamburger analogy. If a person said, `the mustard on this burger makes it taste worse` and it was then shown to have no mustard in it then the obvious response would be, `well whatever relish is on it is making it worse`.

Are many people wrong when they use the word `Auto-tune`? Doubtless they are.

But if all of these critics instead were saying that, `the effect that has been added to the vocals is making them sound worse and spoiling the album` then that doesn`t improve the review of the album one bit and many people would still be complaining just as much.

By the way, a few posters did give details about parts where they thought they heard "some kind of vocal processing that some would believe to be auto tuna," and said examples were completely ignored by the No Pier Pressure Police. Sooooooo...?

I didn't see your response but I thought I was agreeing in the other post that it is vague and not definitive and I suggested we need something definitive if people want to know. I'm not assuming anything, as I also said earlier there is a definitive answer one way or another if we can get at it.

Those that are trying to stave off the small handful of truly troll-ish anti-Brian folks here (I still maintain the actual pro-Mike or pro-Brian folks who are actually trolling are very few in number) are doing the “cause” no favors by continuing to contort the clearly sketchy available information to try to contend NO auto-tune was even possibly used on NPP. A tiny bit of budging would go a long way towards credibility and away from the appearance of being overly defensive of Brian and his work.

There is largely subjective information, mostly aural in nature, to support the possibility of autotune. In addition, we apparently have one Brian quote where he says autotune *can* be used. While this doesn’t prove it *was* used, to suggest that Brian mentioning this little factoid in relation to how he works does not strongly suggest he probably used it at some point is pretty silly, especially when the resulting aural evidence also, in some cases, suggests its use.

“Brian corrects you and has you do numerous takes if you sing flat” is not evidence that, any number of days or weeks or months later, someone (whether Brian or another engineer) didn’t use a software plug-in that corrects/levels out pitch.

I doubt Al came in and took five minutes to record his lead vocal on “From There to Back Again” and then took off to ride horses in Big Sur. He probably took time to get it as good as he could. With Brian producing, it probably sounded excellent. But then at some point after that somebody made the decision to slather on beaucoup de some-sort-of-autotune type effect.

None of the “on site” reports about Brian recording disallow for the potential use of autotune. That Musgraves or Deschanel or Brian himself did a million takes of a vocal has nothing to do with whether autotune might have been used. Autotune doesn’t fix a vocal if you forget the words, or start a beat too late, or if you burp in the middle of the take. I have no problem believing Brian uses a very perfectionist ethos in the studio while producing vocals, and then *also* in some cases runs select material through various auto-tune type software plug-ins. Again, autotune is much more a stylistic choice these days than strictly (or at all) a tool to “fix” mediocre singers. It can also be subtle or in-your-face. Most of my frustration with any use of autotune comes from people using it when they don’t need it.

But, again with a few exceptions (the trolls), the suggestion of Brian using autotune on select tracks isn’t some sort of loaded accusation that Brian can’t sing, or can’t produce, or is selling out, or is being lazy, or whatever else I suspect some defensive folks are feeling. I can’t say what’s in every fan’s mind of course. But I can tell you that I’m probably not the only certified BB nerd/fan/nut who digs NPP and Brian’s work, but has no problem calling something when it seems possible. I’m fine admitting I don’t know for sure autotune was used. I’m more skeptical of elaborate parsing of terminology to somehow nearly “prove” it wasn’t used. It’s not terribly dissimilar, ironically enough, from the elaborate parsing done to try to take one of the a**hat Mike Love interviews where he makes some d**k comments about C50 or the Wilson brothers and try to stretch his words into something completely innocuous.

Brian probably has used autotune. Not always, maybe not even that often, and he’s talented and amazingly prolific either way.

Mike is a d**k in interviews sometimes. More often than not it seems, especially lately. He’s also talented and deserves a lot of credit, and I have no doubt he’s capable of not being a d**k in interviews.

This isn’t fence walking. This is, in my opinion, a realistic view of these guys. It doesn’t preclude enjoying their work and admiring their talent. It isn’t an exercise in “say one good thing and one negative thing about each member.” It’s just how I see it anyway. I tend to be skeptical of those who are unflinchingly negative or positive about these guys.

A couple of further points:

Typing in `Brian Wilson No Pier Pressure autotune` on google brings up dozens of hits where it is mentioned in reviews. None of the hits that come up in the first 2 pages are from this board.

Also, I missed this but in one hit it shows that in Andrew Hickey`s review he also comments, ` the autotune is a bit ham-handedly applied here` when discussing The Right Tiime and gives a specific example (`never`).

Now if this board has got to the stage where posters are not allowed to make the same comments that professional reviewers and even people who have written several books about Brian do then there is something badly wrong.

Plus, in a thread where a person is claiming to feel insulted due to their nationality, new members are being forced into apologies simply due to giving an opinion and blatant lies are being posted in antagonistically personal posts then the moderators should have much more pressing concerns than over whether one simple word is being wrongly used.

I'll say my legitimate criticism again: I heard a weird vocal artifact I found distracting on This Beautiful Day at about 1:00 into it.  Does anyone agree that something sounds off with the "oh's"?

Actually I wasn't insulted as I'm not British, but the poster was using some people's nationality to insult them. IMHO.

But in the aspect of treating each other in a civil way, this board is going down fast. It's no fun anymore. This "you don't share my opinion, you have an agenda" and "you're being paid by evil Mike Love" stuff makes me want to quit the board for good. Which would be sad because you got the best information here. What are the mods going to do about it? If I observed it right, a poster was banned for posting an insulting cheerleader picture in a personal attack - rightfully banned IMHO, that should be applied more often in order to cool the board down a bit, there's more cases like that right in this thread.

I only post on this board once in a blue moon, but it's worth posting on here to say that this thread is fucking nuts!

I'm closing this for the time being. There are many inappropriate things posted here and need time to address each one individually. Will reopen at a later time, or make a catchall review thread.

Officially: I'm issuing another time out ban as was done a few pages ago for what happened as the discussion heated up on page 14. There may be more coming, as Billy said it needs to be sorted out and discussed. For now, it went too far and this is the response and reaction.

As far as comments directed toward the moderators and what we should or should not be doing...in a few cases which I'll respectfully not call out by name, if you live in a glass house, don't throw stones.

Thread open again. I cannot believe some of this stuff.

Where a discussion involves me as someone discussing the topic, I'll post as myself and respond/reply.

You might want to reconsider re-opening this thread: I'm betting (and that is my trade, after all) that you'll be re-closing it again in short order.

Isn't "re-" a useful prefix ?  ;D

Who's biased? Brian Wilson himself claims to have used pitch correction, and -without knowing- you say it was not used for voices. Perhaps you should ask those who were present. Out of the last 30 years or so of Brian's career as a live singer it's possible to pick only a handful of professional sounding leads, if at all. I'm the first guy to submit that he's a far superior studio singer than he is on the stage, but c'mon. I'm also willing to accept no problem that he worked phrase by phrase, endless takes of them.

I'm quitting this discussion anyway. I like the darn NPP and it's just become about proving others wrong. For the record, there's some shitty editing on older songs that he recorded phrase by phrase. Perhaps we should blame Britz for splicing the tape before the group actually breathes on And Your Dream
Comes True.

Where does he say he used pitch correction, and where did he specify what he used it on if he did use it? Just show us the quote your referencing regarding NPP. If it's the one posted earlier, that's already been addressed.

Don't quite understand how tape splicing and Chuck Britz come into this, unless there were groups of people in 1965 claiming an audible tape splice on a particular phrase ruined the whole album for them, or defined what they didn't like about said album (or song) based on a sloppy tape edit. Maybe fans saw the bigger picture "back then" and chose to enjoy the experience rather than nit-picking or trying to find some malady in a split second clip of a note or breath to judge an album.

Maybe it's part of living in 2015 that things have gotten so ridiculous to the point "autotune" has been used as a specific loaded word and critique against artists like Brian Wilson, and so-called fans of Brian Wilson search for traces of autotune or pitch correction with the equivalent of a sonic electron microscope searching every vocal note or phrase in order to find something to critique instead of enjoying the listening experience itself. And if it's just not your cup of tea, that's fine, good on 'ya. Trying to find autotune traces instead of getting into the big picture is, to me, pathetic, but perhaps indicative of music and fan behavior in 2015 as much as anything.

I'm getting the impression that both sides of this issue see pitch correction as a bad thing which brings the artist who uses it down a peg or two. Is it just me?

To HeyJude  Cam Mott:

"I haven't heard the song yet, I am sure with Al's voice and hopefully no autotune, the song will be great."

Y'know, we should all probably think way, way back to when this board was still a monthly, mimeographed fanzine sent by mail back in 1968--remember when we kept having those discussion then about overdubbing/flanging/punching-in, and how that wasn't "honest" and "why couldn't they just SING it in the studio"?

I'm digging through my box of BB stuff in the attic. Can't find the ol' SS issues yet. But I will keep digging. And eventually, scanning, and posting.

You'll see.








 ;)

I don't understand.

Here's my own take on things. Not necessarily any sort of absolute truth but just one more perspective.

Do I think that there's some digital pitch correction on the new album? Yes. While my personal experience with the Antares plug-in was only fleeting, I think I have a pretty good grasp of what the "artificial steps quality" of that tuning process sounds like, even in light stages. Perhaps ironically, I hear it most on the Musgraves (great track IMHO, btw!) and some of the other guest vocals with their respective tracks. I also hear it in occasional spots on both Al and Brian's vocals. I wouldn't be surprised if the individual elements of the backing vocals were treated to it as well in places. Beyond that, there's probably a slew of other effects and plug-ins being used as well. Along with comp'd vocals, punch-ins, layered-lines, multiple takes and all the other stuff that makes record production so fascinating.

That said, I'm not really sure why this should be a shock to anyone...or even a dealbreaker. TunaAuto is pretty much the way-of-life in terms of the tools that contribute to the sheen of modern pop and country records  -- albeit perhaps an un-organic one to some. We also know that Joe Thomas has never shied away from it in the past, and even though Bob Clearmountain gets the chief mixing credit here, there's a whole bunch of other people credited as well (including JT). In this digital, unlimited virtual track recording age, it, along with other effects, could've been applied at any stage......and probably undone just as easily if need be. And while there's things about the overall production of the album that I'm not always overly fond of, I can't really just single that part out.

Also, count me in as someone who probably actually prefers to hear Brian's somewhat pitch-challenged, "modern" voice treated to a *bit* of this (though, in the case of the C50 live album, I think it was not implemented very well there). This isn't simply some new trend, and while the actual tools and technology were different, they've been doing it to his voice for decades. As an example, they dumped his voice into a sampler (Synclavier, Fairlight, etc.) during Orange Crate Art and pitch-corrected it using the pitch wheel.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/252354-post2.html

IIRC, Mark Linett also mentioned "tuning the odd vocal note here and there" in a Mix interview regarding the Gershwin album (and it's definitely audible on "The Like In I Love You' on some notes/phrases).

So, I'm not sure it should be considered "disparaging" to point this out. It's a tool like anything else, and while I get that some people don't like it, it's nothing really unique these days. Good singers, bad singers....and everything/everyone in between.....even individual instruments occasionally....seem to be fair game. :)

A great post.

Not going to open up this can of worms again, but I addressed this question a long time ago -- that people were using the word autotune to identify a more general type of vocal processing they didn't like -- and it seemed to rankle.  But the fact is, if something's bugging people, and they don't get the semantics right the first time, it does not invalidate their opinion.  It just means they didn't express it right - which most non-musicians (e.g. the audience, the people buying the records) are incapable of precisely doing.

So it seems a little disingenuous now that people have been better educated and are more properly labeling the things that they believe are hearing, to call them out for THAT too.  "See?  They don't know what they're talking about!"  Well, by that rubrick, nobody can have an opinion that isn't precisely and clinically stated from the outset.

I know from the past go 'round this isn't going to go over particularly well, and again I haven't heard the album in toto so I'm not making a statement about it per se, but my own, non personal attack-y opinion is that the above post is one of those things that's worded to sound like it's making a sound argument, but doesn't.

No opinion as to Brian's album, other than that I like what I've heard of it, but I personally think people have a right to dig or not dig a piece of work offered to the public, however clearly or not clearly they express those opinions.

(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n295/guitarfool2002/laconfidential_zps5dc592ec.jpg)


Perhaps I should try wording things to sound like they're not making a sound argument?

Not speaking for anyone but myself...


That's why I was so insistent previously about it...it wasnt to be a prick and be like 'oh ho ho I know something you don't' like someone accused me of..I was actually trying to educate, because quite frankly I'm a music geek, and love sharing knowledge! It's one of the reasons why I posted those five clips of me singing, and put autotune on one of them, and challenged people to guess which one was autotuned. I expected more people to guess correctly than did (IIRC, only one person in fact guessed right ), but it did prove a point. That's also why I was frustrated  that a few people were still insistent that it was autotune they were hearing on NPP even after it was pointed out what it actually was (and for a good example of autotune used very poorly, the C50 live album is a sadly perfect example...and another one is Mike's vocals on the Live at Knebworth CD/DVD!)   

What's frustrating to me (and this is on a different trip) is how piss poor autotune actually is used in the industry today, even when it's not being used for effect. I know this is a fad that will pass, but it needs to hurry up and be done with.

An I reading this right? That "autotune" is being used generically when it's actually a trademarked product, one of several that perform similar functions?

Like "Hoover" has come to be generic for "vacuum cleaner" and "goretex" is used for "waterproof breathable hiking jacket"?

That's the main contention?

Not that, but that it functions different than other pitch correction program. Also, there are other ways to adjust pitch than just those types of programs as well.

Maybe I misread the post but I thought John Manning was referring to the word `autotune` now being used as a generalization (no doubt often wrongly). I`ve no doubt this does happen a lot in reviews.

A guy might not enjoy beefburger even if he calls it a hamburger.

Brian's quote about pitch correction is enough for me. No matter if it's been addressed before. Or does the fact that it's been already addressed necessarily implies that he did not pitch-correct his vocals?

My mention of crappy tape-splicing during a golden era means exactly what you infer. That such shitty editing does not seem to hinder anybody's enjoyment of that music. Why would a modern-day effect or effects or tools the pressence of which isn't even entirely noticeable. You're too busy fighting your battles and playing defense and have lost nuance in the meantime. Step back a little. That was my advice like 7 pages ago, which you promptly dismissed.

Pitch-correcting on BW records has been an issue at least since "The Like in I Love You". At least ever since then, there's been discussions as this every time a new release appears. It also happened during the C50 tour, when robot-like amateur recordings flooded, during TWGMTR album discussions and also when the live 50th album came out. The issue has been bugging some people and it's ok if they voice it.

So we need to distinguish between the generic "autotune" - used by most to refer to any method of pitch correction - and the specific "Auto-Tune" produced by Antares Audio Technologies.

Can I suggest we do that by using either the generic word "autotune" - no capitals, one word - or the  specific "Auto-Tune" when referring to the actual processor that's marketed under that name? Hopefully that might help avoid confusion.

Thank you. Well put.

I would add that some folks also do know enough about pitch correction plug-ins, especially how they sound when they hit a released record, that I still believe the suggestion that actual pitch correction software plug-ins were used on “No Pier Pressure” is not an inappropriate suggestion or open question. That’s what’s frustrating me, that such an opinion can be minimized. I haven’t seen anybody claim they can *prove* autotune was used, and nobody can prove it *wasn’t* used. The stretching and rationalizing to, I guess, try to prove it wasn’t used has seemed far more desperate, and has involved a lot more stretching, a lot more parsing of terminology and even Brian’s own interviews (“he said autotune *can* be used; that doesn’t mean it *was* used!).

Does anyone believe some sort of pitch correction is NOT on TWGMTR and the C50 live album (and was especially used in a ham-fisted way at a few early C50 shows?). To me, those projects are strong, and highly circumstantial, evidence of a pattern. When someone knows this pattern, and then hears some of the same artifacts, albeit more subtley, on the VERY NEXT project the same team works on, I don’t understand why there is such a level of incredulity when the mere suggestion is made that that same team is doing the same thing they’ve been doing up to this point.

This is hardly scientific and is completely subjective, but I would again encourage people to listen to Al’s vocals on some tracks on his “Postcard from California” album. There are many tracks (perhaps all of them), where Al’s vocal is not heavily processed, and is pretty dry and upfront. *Nothing* on Brian’s CD sounds like that. A lot of that has to do simply with how Brian likes to record and mix stuff (more dense, more wet, echo/reverb, etc.). But Al’s stuff sounds better sonically, and whatever you think of it, sounds *different.* Al ended up mixing much if not all of this stuff in Pro Tools as well as I recall. He did get the warmth of the analog tape and probably some older outboard gear. Who knows, maybe even he ticked the pitch correction box on a few items here or there. I don’t recall hearing any such anomalies, but as someone who thinks Al’s stuff sounds more organic and dry and who thinks he probably didn’t use autotune, I’m not prepared to say he never used it. In any event, give that stuff a listen again from a sonic point of view. Al’s stuff ain’t perfect either. The drums on “Looking Down the Coast” sound right out of 1989 (which they could be!). But his voice sounds much more pure. Listen to his “California Feelin’” for instance.

"Better sonically," huh?

In other words, you prefer Al's production decisions. That's fine, I guess, but I like my BW records to sound the way BW wants them to.

I guess it's kind of a complex thing to describe. But I suppose in the end, if I think something is better, it's just an opinion that something is better. But I think a dry, upfront vocal sound with less processing sounds better sonically; it has more of a natural "breath of life" or whatever one wants to call it. To me, sonically that's preferable. It's not any sort of value judgment on the people recording this stuff. *Sometimes*, the closer a vocal on a recording sounds to sitting next to someone singing it, the more sonically pure it can sound. Creative use of effects can be cool too.


Completely seperate from any autotune discussion, I've long said that I'm not always a big fan of Brian's 2000s production/mixing/mastering ethos. Way too wet to my taste more often than not. And it is just taste. I *know* Brian likes to arrange, record, and mix in a rather dense, wet style. I think this worked well earlier in his career. But stylistically and sonically I'm not as big of a fan of how he does it now. It's not a deal breaker or anything, just not my preference. As I've said before, I don't think Brian will ever record something that sounds like Tom Petty's "Highway Companion." I think, on the arrangement side, the bells and whistles (sometimes literally) have become excessive. A random example: I actually think "A Friend Like You" is a solid song. But it's adorned with WAY too much.

I see the pattern in modern day remixes of old BB tracks too. I often wonder if Brian is part of the decision making to add way too much reverb to some of the stereo remixes. Listening to the stereo remix of "Please Let Me Wonder" or "You're So Good To Me", and then going back to Brian's original mono mix shows that huge difference.

But I would definitely say that implicit in liking the sound of an Al record (or anybody else's) is NOT that I think Brian should make his records the way someone else wants them to sound. It goes without saying that he should do it however he wants to. I'm not even saying Brian *could* make his stuff sound different. He makes his music the way it is, and I digest it accordingly.

In the theoretical, I think a raw, dry Brian recording might actually be VERY interesting and tantalizing. A full album of Brian just playing piano and singing new songs. Maybe adorned with some other layers. A modern day "Love You" of sorts perhaps, but with less synths. But I don't expect him to do that.

Got to agree that the tracks on Al's album sound crisper, more natural. Agree it's just a difference in styles, but who here wouldn't love to hear a new BW/AJ album recorded at Red Barn, timber walls resonating, with little if any digital augmentation. I rub my hands at the thought.



Qualifying statement: I love everything these guys do, do not work in the music industry and aspire to a better hifi system.

Frustrating for me: Those still insistent what it was after you and others took the time to not only explain but give classroom-style, actual examples to help inform and/or educate those who legitimately would not know or who would be interested to know what the actual effect/tool sounds like when applied. I would have also added a deliberate overuse of it to the examples in order to show the robotic quality (T-Pain, Cher) in comparison.

And after putting up the examples, explaining it, etc, as mentioned there are still folks who insist they hear it all over NPP to the point of distraction and lessening the enjoyment of the album.

Listen to Billy's examples, maybe he'll repost them if he can. That's the real-world example of how autotune can sound, minus the obvious T-Pain overuse of it for effect.


Before addressing others: Does NPP overall sound anything like the C50 album? Or any of the other examples where "obvious" autotune or other pitch corrections are audible on more than one note out of a song?

If claiming "autotune" were not used against Brian Wilson or anyone else as a dig, as a criticism, as a loaded weapon of a claim or word in the past, to the point where another band member used it in an interview before even hearing the song...it wouldn't be an issue.

If there are those who are seeking to use the "autotune" claims as a way to knock someone or something down a few pegs as has been done in the past, then be prepared to be challenged. If those who legitimately do not know what autotune is or what it does when it's not on a T-Pain record, musicians like Billy, myself, and a small group of others qualified to speak about and demonstrate it are here and available to clarify and provide examples.

If people happen to get swept up in this who are perhaps hearing something which they do not fully understand what it is or who may think it's autotune but is actually another effect, it's a shame it got to this and apologies where necessary to those specific listeners. If you want to learn or hear more about autotune, ask us here, listen to Billy's examples, etc. The facts are here and readily available. And we like to share info, too.

But at the same time, if someone, somewhere had the f***ed up notion to start pasting the "autotune" claim on top of anything related to Brian Wilson's music as some sort of a trolling, as a way to knock him or anyone around him down a few pegs, to paint incorrect impressions of songs or music in general by suggesting it was "autotuned" and therefore bad or lessened in some way, or for those simply out to get their kicks by doing dumb things online...

...It's not a secret what was done or what's being done in some circles. The facts are there, the attempts to pull this sh*t will be met with direct challenges, and the whole thing will collapse under the weight of the lies and the bullshit that built up this whole "autotune" nonsense.

Was it used on NPP? For those who honestly answered that question and gave their opinions with no bias or (gasp...) agenda, who feel they got swept up in a wave of criticism, I'm sorry. Speaking for myself. Some folks legitimately may think something is one way, but it's something else. See the comment about some NPP vocal passages sounding like they were in a tin can. Autotune doesn't create that effect.

For those using autotune as a negative, as something other than an honest appraisal of the music or the songs, and who continue to do so...try something else. Find something to enjoy in life if Brian Wilson or this album doesn't do it for you. But at least be honest.

I think what HeyJude is saying here is valid, actually. A lot if it comes down to how people prefer to hear their vocals recorded and mixed. But adding a whole innuendo-charged layer to it is most unpleasant.

Agreed. Fans each have their own likes and dislikes, and like to hear things a certain way. That's what makes us all individuals with personal tastes, obviously!  :)  I'm the same way, as each of us are. Some people hate Jeff Lynne's signature snare drum sound, I love it. So there.  ;D

Adding in the innuendo, though, brings all of this stuff to another level. Making claims that have been made since before the whole album came out, and using them even as a very minor whisper campaign or attempt to diminish, which is what "autotune" has become in some circles, i.e. a weapon, a loaded word or claim, is pathetic especially if it's not what is being claimed it is.

Again, consider what fans said was objectionable about hearing the use of autotune prominently on albums like the C50 live discs. Is that what is on this new album? Is there that much of an audible use of autotune or pitch correction to that high of a level that it ruins the effect of the album overall, that the songs and performances themselves aren't able to come through? Is the autotune or pitch correction that noticeable, as it may have been on previous albums like the C50, that it "ruins" this album? Or is it part of that bizarre attempt overall to use autotune as a loaded claim and diminish-distract rather than give it a fair assessment? Just consider.

Maybe they NEEDED it for TWGMTR?  Perhaps there were some contributing who just couldn't project and still hit the target?  Maybe, on the other hand, it just wasn't needed for NPP?  Or maybe it's just some kind of twisted 'kick' to call Brian and all of those closely involved a bunch of liars.  [even though many of those doing so don't know DICK about how to tune up an auto let alone auto-tune.]

At any rate...and this'll sound like an old/AGE old cop-out but it isn't.  That *WE* could be given the chance to hear an album as GREAT as No Pier Pressure is in this the year 2015 and then to sit down for 9 straight days [plus the countdown to delivery time frame] and tear the album to bits, chew it up and spit it out is as close to crazy as I can even begin to imagine.  We're as lucky as sin to have this album and to take the old expression about looking a gift-horse in the mouth and then pretty much turn it into eating the poor ol' horse for dinner is... is ... is . . . . . . . . .

It's a joke.

I remember when folks griped -- for years! -- about the "pro tools" on Imagination.

Of course, pro tools is just a digital recording suite, and doesn't necessitate that music sound any particular way. Bob Dylan has recorded multiple, rootsy albums using it.

So the conversation about the technology became a way to argue about things -- Brian being controlled, Brian doing inappropriate music, Brian no longer being able to sing -- that are a little uncomfortable to state outright, but which are easily implied.

We had nearly as much debate about BW's vocals on BWPS, and again on BWRG. By that time, people had graduated to talking about "autotune." But again, it's a stand in for a bunch of other topics. To request that people actually address those topics, rather than rail against a technological specter, seems like a legitimate request.

It's like the "Brian's handlers" talk. Let's imply something dark and ominous, without actually coming out and saying what we mean. Thankfully, that's ebbed a bit as folks like Ray have pointed out that Brian's "people" are essentially his wife and longtime PR person. Nothing too dark there.

Maybe I haven’t read enough of all of these threads, but I still don’t see vast swaths of people amassing a “campaign” against Brian concerning autotune. As with a lot of stuff on this board, it’s been broken down to semantics, on both sides.

My position on this is simple, and I can also see why someone else might find it inflammatory: Yeah, I think some digital pitch correction plug-ins were probably used on this album, and I’m not going to *not* say that just because a small subset of trolls are taking the level-head opinion of others and turning into nasty implications and innuendo.

But I hear some pitch correction on NPP. Not excessive in most spots. It’s not as prevalent as the past few releases. But I think it’s probably there. I have a pretty decent set of ears for this stuff, a moderate amount of familiarity with the role studio work can play in this, and I have played this stuff for folks with more experience with software plug-ins than I do, and they largely agree with what many fans seem to feel. NPP has less futzing in terms of pitch correction, likely in reaction to the criticism of the previous works, but it’s still there. I’ve also weighed the other evidence accordingly. There’s no smoking gun particularly. But there’s a lot of circumstantial evidence, and most of it points in the direction of these guys using it on NPP.

If use of autotune was a criminal offense and NPP went to trial and we only had the evidence that is available right now (e.g. no testimony from the people who worked on it), I’d probably have to say there’s enough reasonable doubt that I’d say “not guilty.” But it would be a case of voting “not guilty” because it can’t be proven, not because I don’t think it’s possible if not more likely than not.

In civil court, if someone sued NPP for autotune, I’d probably say “guilty” (or, rather, civilly liable), because that would amount largely to simply saying that it’s more likely true than not true.

If we truly believe we’re all actually entitled to opinions here, then I’d rather err on the side of letting the autotune accusations fly. We can’t quash discussion of it because a few folks lace its mention with a bunch of implications. If that happens, then a bunch of people who just want to point out they hear it, people who in my opinion would probably be actually correct, would feel kind of minimized or oppressed.

I can’t be the only person here who is capable of understanding that autotune on a Brian Wilson record doesn’t have to be inherently an accusation of something more nefarious.

It can be a stand-in. But I have a little more faith in folks here. Faith that we can talk about stuff analytically without always having the baggage of a bunch of other implications, and faith that those reading such comments can understand that as well and not get too defensive.

It’s a very touchy topic, but the idea that “autotune” debates speak to a larger issue than the semantics of whether someone clicked on a software plug-in is not necessarily all a bad thing.

You posted that old link to the guy who described how he did Brian’s vocals for “Orange Crate Art.” I think *some* fans refuse to even acknowledge what that guy is saying. He’s basically saying Brian’s awesome and he’s genuinely still gifted beyond belief, but his voice needs help in the studio that can’t be fully always fixed by punch-ins and comping takes. That they would use autotune rather than the synthesizer method that guy mentioned makes sense to me. As with any methods, they continue to refine that. I think they did a pretty good job on NPP in that regard.

I think it might be an over-reach to assign ominous intentions to those who just have an opinion about production values but I apparently haven't seen the offending posts.

Nailed it. Be prepared for all kinds of denials, charges of "conspiracy theorist!", attempts to spin and distort and double-talk and all the rest...but you just nailed it. That sums it up very well.

Pretty sad state of affairs among the fanbase, isn't it? The basic enjoyment that comes with being a fan replaced by those having some axe to grind (or...horrors...agenda) without having the guts to come right out and say it.

Cheers, Wirestone.

No.

With great respect to Clay Wirestone who I normally agree with, I don't get this at all from the majority of criticisms of the new album and its production. I'm slightly disturbed by the intolerant tone taken by guitarfool2002 recently (whose wrath I shall doubtless incur with this post). This questioning of people's honesty is fanning the flames of a argument that really doesn't need to happen. The long and the short of it is that some people like and some do not like the production of NPP. Live and let live.

Completely agree with this.  Now we're suggesting saying Brian used autotune really means he's being controlled?  Even when Brian said he likes autotune?  Get real.  I'm not sure why GF continues to fan the flames either.  Some people hear autotune.  Part of it is people labeling any kind of processing autotune, which is very common.  Before I joined here, I would have assumed the Kacey track was full of autotune, even though I like how it was used.  Doesn't mean it's some sort of conspiracy, it just sounds unnatural is all. 

And it *may* in fact have autotune on it. We shouldn’t let sweeping generalizations rule the day. But we also shouldn’t oppress genuine opinion whose reasoning has not been proven inaccurate.

I didn’t follow the whole thread for weeks, but when “Guess You Had to Be There” first got out, a few folks seemed to feel it was a more obvious instance of autotune. Then, we had some folks who proposed reasons why this was not the case. Fair enough. I personally wasn’t convinced. The evidence (including citing other methods/effects that might achieve a similar sound, and references to Brian being meticulous in having Musgraves sing vocal takes) did not indicate to me that the use of some sort of pitch correction plug-in on that song was impossible. I find alternate explanations and ideas truly interesting. I actually tend to inadvertently often be a contrarian; I’m fascinated when things that seem obvious and/or commonly-held beliefs are proven wrong. I just haven’t seen that happen in this particular case, and I understand enough about the technology and the industry and common sense to know from the outset that it will be *very* difficult to prove much of anything. 

This.

Well, the OP asked at the start of the thread why there have been some bad reviews...

And yes, there is no question that for several reviewers that how the vocals sound is a big problem for them. These reviews (the ones talking about autotune or pitch correction) come from all over the globe and all manner of publications.  I`m not saying that they are right or that people should agree with them, but it obviously is a legitimate area of discussion.

It all comes down to differences of opinion basically. Just because one person doesn`t hear any issue with the vocals certainly doesn`t mean that it can`t be a big problem for other listeners...

Hopefully some unimpeachable source will come forward and put the board out of its misery over if there is or isn't pitch correction.  Is that a correct use of unimpeachable? You know what I mean.

You said this better than I ever could have. Wirestone and Guitarfool are ascribing motivations to posters whose opinions about No Pier Pressure don't line up with their own. It's like a McCarthy communist witch-hunt.

It's as though anybody who says anything negative about NPP has to a) apologize in advance with the "it's only my opinion" disclaimer and b) go into minute technical detail to explain their opinion on the album. If said poster only has a few posts to their name, they are part of the anti-Brian cabal.

This is all becoming very tiresome... Maybe I'm just Gettin' In Over My Head...

Some people never even gave themselves an opportunity to "like" the album. There were far to many pre conceived perceptions and or fears that hindered new perceptions of the album. As discussed many , many times these perceptions have manifested into a great deal of ill-informed perceptions of Brian and his work.

Just listen to the album for awhile.  that is my advice.   If you are open minded the album will grow on you or not as other BB records have.   Gems and Clinkers.    And furthermore I don't give a crap about auto tune or not, but in general, I do like a more "natural" sounding record rather than an "overproduced" one.  but; would one consider a Spector sounding record overproduced?    I think auto tune and such are a matter of taste rather than a bad thing in itself.   The final product is either aesthetically pleasing or not.   

Yes, it's precisely like that.

And while you ponder ways to get off the blacklist (possibly by posting under an assumed name -- a lot of folks seem be trying that these days), go listen to the vocals-only version of "Add Some Music" on Hawthorne, CA. You'll notice that Mike's multi-tracked lead sounds a lot like Kacey's vocals on GYHTBT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2SZRDUaFRc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgSU2rnMR_k

Seriously. And ask yourself, if ASM came out last month, would we be having this discussion about Mike's vocals?

It has a Joe Thomas digital footprint all over it!! Bloody autotune......

Its not a bad album but its not great. Its obvious he was coerced into the duets with modern pop artists... I just dont hear any rockNroll on NPP and Brian is a rockNroll artist, he perfected the genre for christ sake! Thats why the BBs music took such a swan dive in the late 70s onward; they had such rockin albums with shut down vol2, all summer alive, summer days, wild honey, 20/20 and love you. The Beach Boys were pop in the sense that pop is short for popular so when a record comes out with their name on it and it sounds like muzak like the light album & keepin the summer alive it drains their substantial/quality factor...to each is own but his/their music needs to be respected for the RIGHT reasons.

 :thud

First, to all of you above - Find on this board anywhere or in my posts in this thread where I ascribed motivations to posters who posted a negative review. It was the issue of bringing autotune into it that was the problem. Especially if it were being used as an attack, or was being used without any knowledge of what it really is or what it does.

My issue has been with those who deliberately cry "autotune!" as something other than an observation, those who cried "autotune!" before hearing anything from the album except a 10-second cel video, and those who use autotune as an attack, and that has been done.

So these replies come after going out of my way to 1. Say several times how it was not about challenging opinions on liking or not liking this album but rather the autotune nonsense in general being challenged and 2. State specifically in this post that I apologized to anyone who legitimately did not know what autotune was or sounded like who felt like they were getting caught up in this, and offered again to give examples and explanations as have already been given in the past.

Some of the comments suggest you're pointing fingers at me for things I didn't say, but perhaps things that you want to believe I said to start an argument, or what is it? Because it wasn't about someone's negative review or positive review or anything in between.


And where are the examples of autotune anyway? So far, perhaps less than one second total of two specific vocal sounds that someone had heard as autotune out of a 14 track album.

There was one posted that mentioned a passage where the listener said Brian's vocals sounded like they were in a tin can. Where are all the audio engineers and experts to set that straight and say Autotune does not create that sound?

I'll say it. Autotune does not create the sound of being inside a tin can.

We had an example given of a phrase Al sang on The Right Time.

If I say I don't know what caused that, will I be charged the same as the previous posters who didn't hear "Kokomo" in the melody of another album track? If I say it could be anything from a plug in to an edit to some other digital remnant, will I be charged with deliberately not agreeing it's autotune to score points or something?

We had someone mention a portion of a Blondie vocal. I don't hear that as autotune, what if I were to say that or say I don't know if it's autotune or something else versus agreeing by saying "THERE IT IS! AUTOTUNE!", would I be charged as a liar or worse for that?

So tally it all up.

After repeated requests, not nasty or sarcastic in tone, but just plain requests for someone to give us some examples of the kind of autotune that would "ruin" or detract listeners from enjoying the overall album (or even the overall song), here is what we get:

One note that Jardine sang. One note of a phrase Blondie sang. And a lot of people saying they hear autotune permeating the album, yet no one can pinpoint it.

If I were to tell people I just had a terrible experience and a bad meal at a restaurant, they may ask what happened, what was wrong, etc.

I sure as hell would be able to say what it was about the food I didn't like, specifically.

In this case we have specific claims that autotune ruins the album, yet we have a sum total of about a full second of music as examples to point to as the culprit.

Equivalent, perhaps, to saying my meal was ruined because there was a single french fry on the plate that had no salt on it. I can't enjoy the meal unless all 23 french fries on the side dish have the proper amount of salt.

So again, where is the autotune that is ruining this album for people? Two notes out of how many thousand on the album? There has to be more. Let us know where it is so we can hear it too.

If it's there, it's there, right? Someone can surely give a few time stamps an tracks to listen for. At least let us hear it with our own ears.

And I'll reply and engage debates and issues with what I said as long as what I said is portrayed accurately.

Reading this spirited debate on the thorny issue of tuna reminds me of the old liner notes on the back of Queen albums. Everyone assumed those Brian May leads were somehow keyboard synthesizer in origin. To which Queen would proudly exclaim - 'No Synthesizers!' (at least up to News of the World)

Maybe it's time to break out that old disclaimer and apply it to tuna.  ;)

For those interested in what this studio equipment used on NPP is, does, and what it looks like, here is a brief rundown with links, info, etc. Some of the models may not be exactly what was used, like the case of the Neve and the API preamps, so those photos are of the more well-known models. Also, the UAD reverb and delay plugins were not specifically named, so it could be an EMT plate reverb as much as anything else - check out the options at the link. I'd suggest clicking the links and checking out what all of this does and how it affects the sounds:

Wesley Seidman interview excerpt:
http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,18510.0.html (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,18510.0.html)

"Wilson’s vocals were recorded in all three rooms with a Neumann U 47. In Studio A, his voice went through the modified Focusrite console to a Teletronix LA-2A. “In D, we would go through the remote Neve pre’s into an [Universal Audio] 1176, and then toward the last third of the record, I purchased a modified API mic pre, which has amazing bandwidth, and sent the 47 through that, into an 1176. And this is all flat—Brian EQs himself by moving around the mic, which he does naturally. We also used a plethora of [UAD] reverb and delay plug-ins. This enabled us to automate the delay and reverb times for each section of the songs where desired. Brian and I both like the FX to be just right."


http://www.telefunken-elektroakustik.com/products/show_product.php?item=20 (http://www.telefunken-elektroakustik.com/products/show_product.php?item=20)

(http://www.telefunken-elektroakustik.com/images/mics/photo_galleries/TFUNK-U47.jpg)

http://www.uaudio.com/hardware/compressors/la-2a.html (http://www.uaudio.com/hardware/compressors/la-2a.html)

(http://www.uaudio.com/media/assetlibrary/l/a/la2a_front_sq.jpg)

http://www.uaudio.com/hardware/compressors/1176ln.html (http://www.uaudio.com/hardware/compressors/1176ln.html)

(http://www.uaudio.com/media/assetlibrary/1/1/1176ln_front_sq.jpg)

http://www.uaudio.com/uad-plug-ins.html (http://www.uaudio.com/uad-plug-ins.html)

(http://www.uaudio.com/media/products/uad2/Banner_UAD-2.png)

http://vintageking.com/neve-bcm-10-ten-channel-frame-s1-16-vintage (http://vintageking.com/neve-bcm-10-ten-channel-frame-s1-16-vintage)

(http://baku.ne.jp/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/NEVE_BCM10_01.jpg)

http://apiaudio.com/product.php?id=103 (http://apiaudio.com/product.php?id=103)

(http://apiaudio.com/img2x/products/prod_512C_1_m.jpg)

Classic!  ;D

That reminds me of an earlier story about country jazz guitarist Jimmy Bryant. In the early 50's he did those amazing duets with steel player Speedy West. Later he recorded as a solo artist. One of his records is "The Fastest Guitar In The Country". DJ's, among others who had heard it, were convinced it had been vari-speeded, sped up, manipulated, etc. Because nobody could play that fast and with that clean of a technique.

So Jimmy played live for those doubtful DJ's at a DJ convention, and played all those amazing guitar leads these guys just knew had to have been manipulated 100% live, right in front of them just like the records. So much for speeding up the records.

Oddly enough, GIOMH is an example of an album that had pitch correction (not necessarily auto-tune) used poorly, with 'Fairy Tale' as a great example (specifically 'and the flowers died').

As far as the opinion on the album, no worries...we can agree to disagree. Now, for the bolded part, well...considering it was Brian's idea, I don't think it is obvious at all, unless he had to coerce himself.

Sorry but I really don`t understand this post or why `autotune` or `Auto-tune` continues to be of such importance...

Since the album was released it has had a great reception on this board and the number of people saying that autotune has ruined it for them is relatively small. That goes for this thread as well. Far more time has been spent telling people not to talk about autotune than has actually been spent discussing it.

And yet still there seems to be the feeling that the whole issue surrounding autotune is a construct of this board. It`s not at all. It has been mentioned far, far more in the press than it has in the board members` reviews thread.

So I don`t understand at all why this goes on...

Could have used some on "You've touched me", though.

I know guitarfool is well intentioned, and knowledgeable. But his endless tirades explaining himself about an issue that has been over-discussed reminds me of that poster who, albeit respectfully, just couln't stop arguing that there were mafia connections in the TWGMTR songwriting team. He made his point and then just couldn't stop arguing. He wasn't rude or anything; it's just that he kept going endlessly. In the end, he got banned. What was his name?

By my post count you can clearly tell that I'm more of a lurker. However, I'm not any less of a fan, and I actually had a track included on one of the old PSML CDs.

With that out of the way, I don't know what the hell is going on here. Guitarfool and Wirestone, I used to really enjoy both of your insights, but I literally can't comprehend the atmosphere that's being established here right now. I don't read all of the threads, so there may be (or rather definitely are) factors at play that I'm unfamiliar with, but I can't understand this level of animosity coming from 2 such level-headed individuals.

Two good posts there…

No, that's just Brian hitting bad notes. I don't hear a trace of pitch correction on that song. Or the entire album for that matter, going off memory.

Just my .02 on this thread, there is clearly pitch correction all over NPP. Every song. Who cares, it's not as bad as TWGMTR save for a few moments - On The Island (all BW vocals), Whatever Happened (verses), Our Special Love (all BW vocals - damn B-Pain) I'm Feeling Sad (long held notes at end of verses). There are a few more random spots, but generally the ones I mentioned are where it's really obvious. However I gotta say for the majority of the songs it seems the engineers who tuned the vocals did a more careful job this time around.