Barnyard Mistake in Pressing of Smile Sessions CD?

[SG7]

It just disturbs me that a thread that's supposedly about one mistake in a minute-long song fragment has carried on for four pages.

This is a Beach Boys board. Nothing is safe here 

[monicker]

I have never made my own Smile mix before but the time has come to do so. I'm going to take every single edit between the modular sections and redo them. Linett evidently doesn't check his edits but i realized this is a blessing in disguise, because in redoing them (in order to eliminate all those stupid, careless clicks) i'll make them hard edits! Welcome back hard edits, i've missed you dearly. Then i will use Look from the sessions, which doesn't have the weird hiss glitch during the trumpet. I will reconstruct CIFOTM from the sessions, where the same type of glitch, also during the trumpet part, isn't nearly as noticeable. I'll take Cabinessence from 20/20, which is absurd, but whatever (does anyone have any other suggestion/solution for Cabinessence?) I'll replace the ending bass notes of Wonderful with the ones from the sessions to get rid of the reverb that was used there. For Barnshine, i will just fade it out before it goes haywire. I'll take the barbershop section of H&V from the Smiley version. Not all, but most of these problems, i think, can be solved. It's just a shame that the presentation of tracks 1-19 are what is being presented to the public for the first time ever, and, no, NOT BECAUSE OF EDITORIAL DECISIONS AND THE SEQUENCE. But who cares about public presentation. I'm excited and happy again.

[debonbon]

There's always one.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

I haven't got the box yet but isn't the mixed version with lead, bvs and animal sounds on CD1?  If so, this isn't a big deal.

Makes the whole "roll your own" thing a bit harder, plus holy frig - the "Barnyard" vocals in stereo? Yes plz.

As I said, I haven't got the box yet and don't know all and what's there.  Is it on the vinyl (didn't Mark say side 4 has music not on the CDs).  Anyway, I'm confused RE:Barnyard.  Do we have the vocal track but just in Mono? Animal sounds in stereo?   The music track.  I do know you can mix stereo and mono easily.

[anazgnos]

About the hiss changes in Cabin Essence, I believe they're deliberate.  The goal seems to have been to apply NR to the quiet sections, only where needed.  Rather than have the filter cut the hiss at an already low dynamic level where the transition will be blatant, they're doing it a little further back while the signal is still loud and the ear is less likely to pick it up.  It may seem like an arbitrary point but I think the goal was to disguise the edit as much as possible, and props to Alan & Mark for not running NR over the entire thing.  As far as the pops, that's unfortunate, but they're not hard to remove in any decent sound editor.

[chris.metcalfe]

I've got some pretty top gear and I can't hear them  - or at least not so it bothers me.

I feel that this (type of thing) is one of the reasons we haven't had Smile for 44 years.

[runnersdialzero]

I haven't got the box yet but isn't the mixed version with lead, bvs and animal sounds on CD1?  If so, this isn't a big deal.

Makes the whole "roll your own" thing a bit harder, plus holy frig - the "Barnyard" vocals in stereo? Yes plz.

As I said, I haven't got the box yet and don't know all and what's there.  Is it on the vinyl (didn't Mark say side 4 has music not on the CDs).  Anyway, I'm confused RE:Barnyard.  Do we have the vocal track but just in Mono? Animal sounds in stereo?   The music track.  I do know you can mix stereo and mono easily.

Everything we have of "Barnyard" is in mono. The mix with the stereo backing vocals was heard on streams of the album for press etc. but is nowhere to be found on the box set and is not on the vinyl, either.

About the hiss changes in Cabin Essence, I believe they're deliberate.  The goal seems to have been to apply NR to the quiet sections, only where needed.  Rather than have the filter cut the hiss at an already low dynamic level where the transition will be blatant, they're doing it a little further back while the signal is still loud and the ear is less likely to pick it up.  It may seem like an arbitrary point but I think the goal was to disguise the edit as much as possible, and props to Alan & Mark for not running NR over the entire thing.  As far as the pops, that's unfortunate, but they're not hard to remove in any decent sound editor.

The hiss occurs in "Cabinessence" near the end of the chorus without any real rhyme or reason. It just comes out of nowhere, it's not specific to the verses or anything like that.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I have never made my own Smile mix before but the time has come to do so. I'm going to take every single edit between the modular sections and redo them. Linett evidently doesn't check his edits but i realized this is a blessing in disguise, because in redoing them (in order to eliminate all those stupid, careless clicks) i'll make them hard edits! Welcome back hard edits, i've missed you dearly. Then i will use Look from the sessions, which doesn't have the weird hiss glitch during the trumpet. I will reconstruct CIFOTM from the sessions, where the same type of glitch, also during the trumpet part, isn't nearly as noticeable. I'll take Cabinessence from 20/20, which is absurd, but whatever (does anyone have any other suggestion/solution for Cabinessence?) I'll replace the ending bass notes of Wonderful with the ones from the sessions to get rid of the reverb that was used there. For Barnshine, i will just fade it out before it goes haywire. I'll take the barbershop section of H&V from the Smiley version. Not all, but most of these problems, i think, can be solved. It's just a shame that the presentation of tracks 1-19 are what is being presented to the public for the first time ever, and, no, NOT BECAUSE OF EDITORIAL DECISIONS AND THE SEQUENCE. But who cares about public presentation. I'm excited and happy again.

You're also a being a bit of a jerk (and in this area I have considerable expertise), but I suspect that's because hardly anyone else can hear these problems you outlined without damaging their ears and equipment. I suspect Mark has read this, laughed, mopped up the coffee he spilt, muttered something like "what a prick" and got on with mixing the stereo version of Smiley Smile he's currently working on (OK, that last bit might just be a fib...).  

[brother john]

I have to say, I've listened to Cabin Essence, Dada and Look and the artefacts that Monicker describes are definitely there.

If you don't hear them, then good for you, but its a bit unfair to come down on Monicker who is obviously peeved at issues that, considering the price of the box and the importance of the project, we shouldn't have to be worrying about.

I'm not going to let these things interfere with my listening pleasure as they are relatively minor and I'm prepared to overlook them, but it is a shame that these obvious errors slipped through, and just because some people don't hear them doesn't mean they're not there.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I have to say, I've listened to Cabin Essence, Dada and Look and the artefacts that Monicker describes are definitely there.

If you don't hear them, then good for you, but its a bit unfair to come down on Monicker who is obviously peeved at issues that, considering the price of the box and the importance of the project, we shouldn't have to be worrying about.

I'm not going to let these things interfere with my listening pleasure as they are relatively minor and I'm prepared to overlook them, but it is a shame that these obvious errors slipped through, and just because some people don't hear them doesn't mean they're not there.

Agree, and not saying they're not there, but I am saying that they are utterly insignificant, and that if you listen at normal volume, inaudible. This is what monicker said about these almost inaudible problems:

"You guys, there are so many of these issues, i just want to cry. I just heard the album portion again and it's really difficult to ignore this stuff."

Seriously ? You wanted to cry ? 

[theCOD]

I want to cry when I see edits like this going into the first chorus of CE:



Look at that. It's horrible! That pop is almost as loud as the music!

Things like this don't ruin it for me, but it's upsetting to see easily avoidable errors peppered throughout such an important release. It sounds unprofessional.

Even if you ignore all the random hiss and digital glitches, what about the speed issue on the H&V stereo mix, or the out of place vocals in the second chorus of CE, or the vocals missing on the Barnyard session? These are BIG mistakes. How could they have been overlooked? Do you think Mark is giggling about those?

I wish you'd stop acting like such a childish bully and deal with it. If you had just ignored this thread we probably wouldn't even be talking about it anymore. We're all happy about this release, but it's a dick move to gang up on anyone who has issues with maybe 1% of it.

[buddhahat]

It just disturbs me that a thread that's supposedly about one mistake in a minute-long song fragment has carried on for four pages.

And the Thanks For The Smile Sessions thread hasn't even made two pages yet. Go figure. Amazingly, this board is actually threatening to be more uptight about errors and mastering deficiencies than the Hoffman Smile thread.

[desmondo]

I have never made my own Smile mix before but the time has come to do so. I'm going to take every single edit between the modular sections and redo them. Linett evidently doesn't check his edits but i realized this is a blessing in disguise, because in redoing them (in order to eliminate all those stupid, careless clicks) i'll make them hard edits! Welcome back hard edits, i've missed you dearly. Then i will use Look from the sessions, which doesn't have the weird hiss glitch during the trumpet. I will reconstruct CIFOTM from the sessions, where the same type of glitch, also during the trumpet part, isn't nearly as noticeable. I'll take Cabinessence from 20/20, which is absurd, but whatever (does anyone have any other suggestion/solution for Cabinessence?) I'll replace the ending bass notes of Wonderful with the ones from the sessions to get rid of the reverb that was used there. For Barnshine, i will just fade it out before it goes haywire. I'll take the barbershop section of H&V from the Smiley version. Not all, but most of these problems, i think, can be solved. It's just a shame that the presentation of tracks 1-19 are what is being presented to the public for the first time ever, and, no, NOT BECAUSE OF EDITORIAL DECISIONS AND THE SEQUENCE. But who cares about public presentation. I'm excited and happy again.

You're mad

[Andrew G. Doe]

I want to cry when I see edits like this going into the first chorus of CE:



Look at that. It's horrible! That pop is almost as loud as the music!

Things like this don't ruin it for me, but it's upsetting to see easily avoidable errors peppered throughout such an important release. It sounds unprofessional.

Even if you ignore all the random hiss and digital glitches, what about the speed issue on the H&V stereo mix, or the out of place vocals in the second chorus of CE, or the vocals missing on the Barnyard session? These are BIG mistakes. How could they have been overlooked? Do you think Mark is giggling about those?

I wish you'd stop acting like such a childish bully and deal with it. If you had just ignored this thread we probably wouldn't even be talking about it anymore. We're all happy about this release, but it's a dick move to gang up on anyone who has issues with maybe 1% of it.

Assuming this is aimed at me (and if it's not, please return to your previously scheduled activities)...

1 - playing "CE" at normal volume over speakers and I honestly don't hear that 'pop' in the first chorus... and remember, I'm listening for it !  I know, I know, I would say that anyway, right ? Wrong. I don't do that.

2 - "BY" vocals (which I was first to notice, btw): getting close to an authoritative answer on that. Film at eleven. Out-of-place- vocals on 2nd "CE" chorus ? Again, can't hear 'em. Yes, there's something a tad off about this stereo mix of "H&V", just as there was on Hawthorne CA ten years ago. Know something ? I got over it.  They're "BIG mistakes" to people who listen to the disc, but not the music, who start with the mindset of looking for this kind of thing (as monicker stated indirectly: I suspect he's no big ML fan): to 99.95% of the people who'll buy this (and I include myself in that, and my ears are pretty good for small detail, such as realising that the single mix of "Never Learn Not To Love" was very minutely different from the album version, and this from crappy vinyl on a very lo-fi setup), they're totally inaudible.

3 - my issue is not with the errors, but with the attitude of the poster: we've got five discs packed full of astonishing music and he chooses to focus on maybe 60 seconds of what he perceives as imperfections bad enough to make him cry. How anyone can be such a delicate flower and still survive in the modern world defeats me. I also wept over this release, but it was with sheer, undiluted joy. Has he said word one about how triumphant the rest of the set is ? Nope, just carps about nearly inaudible flaws.

4 - If you think I'm bullying anyone here then you've not seen the me v Cohen threads (in passing, is this guy related to PC ? They seem to share a certain negative outlook), except that wasn't bullying either, that was pointing out that someone was talking accelerated bollocks on a daily basis. Bullying is "you're ugly, you smell, your mom's a slut and you've got a very small dick". This place isn't grade school - if you're going to make a contentious post, prepare for incoming and robust debate.

And now... I'm going to take my Smile button for a walk. 

[Matt Bielewicz]

I have never made my own Smile mix before but the time has come to do so. I'm going to take every single edit between the modular sections and redo them. Linett evidently doesn't check his edits but i realized this is a blessing in disguise, because in redoing them (in order to eliminate all those stupid, careless clicks) i'll make them hard edits! Welcome back hard edits, i've missed you dearly. Then i will use Look from the sessions, which doesn't have the weird hiss glitch during the trumpet. I will reconstruct CIFOTM from the sessions, where the same type of glitch, also during the trumpet part, isn't nearly as noticeable. I'll take Cabinessence from 20/20, which is absurd, but whatever (does anyone have any other suggestion/solution for Cabinessence?) I'll replace the ending bass notes of Wonderful with the ones from the sessions to get rid of the reverb that was used there. For Barnshine, i will just fade it out before it goes haywire. I'll take the barbershop section of H&V from the Smiley version. Not all, but most of these problems, i think, can be solved. It's just a shame that the presentation of tracks 1-19 are what is being presented to the public for the first time ever, and, no, NOT BECAUSE OF EDITORIAL DECISIONS AND THE SEQUENCE. But who cares about public presentation. I'm excited and happy again.

>Hushed Tom-Baker-at-the-end-of-Logopolis voice<

"...You're UTTERLY MAAAADD!!!!"

>/Tom Baker off<

[puni puni]

I heard the hiss in Cabinessence and Look/CITFOTM but chalked it down to poor stem quality. also other oddities

but really, that's a LOT of hiss. it makes you wonder if they even tried to minimize it.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I heard the hiss in Cabinessence and Look/CITFOTM but chalked it down to poor stem quality. also other oddities

but really, that's a LOT of hiss. it makes you wonder if they even tried to minimize it.

OK, let's recall the entire first run, trash them and then run the whole damn thing through No-Noise before it's pressed up again.

And then someone will bitch about that, of course.

There are folk here who, if handed the Golden Key to the Pearly Gates by God personally, would say "have you got a lighter one, this is awfully heavy".

 

[JohnMill]

I heard the hiss in Cabinessence and Look/CITFOTM but chalked it down to poor stem quality. also other oddities

but really, that's a LOT of hiss. it makes you wonder if they even tried to minimize it.

OK, let's recall the entire first run, trash them and then run the whole damn thing through No-Noise before it's pressed up again.

And then someone will bitch about that, of course.

There are folk here who, if handed the Golden Key to the Pearly Gates by God personally, would say "have you got a lighter one, this is awfully heavy".

 

Then again in a slightly perverse way that is one of the things that is so great about this forum.  That people care so much.  Sure we all get our fill of whining sometimes but the fact that people go over this stuff with a fine toothed comb I think is pretty cool too.

[anazgnos]

The hiss occurs in "Cabinessence" near the end of the chorus without any real rhyme or reason. It just comes out of nowhere, it's not specific to the verses or anything like that.

Well, no, I think it IS specific to the verses.  The hiss isn't something being ADDED, it's something being taken away for the verses.  The hiss slams in precisely at the beginning of the chorus and cuts out somewhere near the end.  Now why they couldn't blend smoothly between different noise reduction stages I don't know, you'd think they'd have the gear.  When I opened up the files in Audition last night I just thought I recognized what was going on, since I think I've probably been in the same situation.  You don't want to kick on noise reduction for a quiet section where the transition can be clearly heard so you "hide" it where the signal level is still high.



And to be clear this is not the very first thing I did when I got home with my box set last night.  I listened to the vinyl first, and LOVED IT.    

[37!ws]

I can't believe I'm contributing to this crap...

So...monicker says "Any serious listening should be done with a pair of good quality studio headphones." Fine. I have my $179 pair of Bose cans on right now...which cost 9 times more than what I normally pay for the Sony studio monitors I like. (And the only reason I have the Bose pair is that I won 'em in a contest by luck.)

First thing mentioned: "Cabinessence," claiming that at 1:01 "the tone of the entire recording changes dramatically and it sounds like some weird filter gets turned on." Interesting...anything I hear is very blink-and-you-miss-it static that, if you really do pay attention to it, is VERY quiet and makes you second-guess the connection on the headphones or that there might be electronic interference of some kind. Had I not been specifically looking for it, I would have missed it. Could be a problem with the source tape. As for the tone changing dramatically...well, during this part I actually moved the playback marker to different parts of the song, and found no such change.

"Look" intro -- hiss comes in during the muted trumpet part. By gum, it does. And it also does that on some of the older boots as well. Conclusion: this was probably the "final" take, declared the master, by Brian himself. So the mistake was made 45 years ago by a mentally unstable guy on drugs whose hearing is only at about 52%.

"Holidays" -- "all sorts of digital artefacts [sic] /clicking/popping"...if by all sorts you mean "twice and only in the right can," I agree. Again, most people listening would attribute it to equipment static or interference with headphones or something unless they backtrack and listen to that half a second repeatedly, over and over. Has nothing to do with the vocals.

"Barnshine fade" -- still trying to figure out WTF is "improper" about it, nor do I hear any of the shifts.

"CIFOTM" -- if you think THAT'S "appalling," then I'm glad you're not a Beatles fan; if you were, you would be screaming bloody murder about the harmonica solo in "Little Child." Yes, I hear the hiss, it's noticeable, I agree. But it's a HELL of a lot better than the versions used on the boots, when the hiss starts coming in a little earlier in the same place, is much louder, and doesn't go away after the trumpet. Kudos to whoever fixed it for the commercial release.

"Heroes And Villains" -- a "nasty digital click/pop" -- I had to listen about five times before I could hear it. And you know what? It's also on the Smiley Smile version! In the EXACT. SAME. SPOT. Only it's a bit less pronounced and sounds more like a bass drum or something, probably because it's about twenty generations removed, what with all the tape reductions Brian did, and that my source (the 1990 twofer) was NoNoised to death, a decision Linett himself later admitted he wished he hadn't done. (Which means that if it WEREN'T NoNoised, it'd be even more noticeable.)

"Wind Chimes" -- okay, what am I listening for? Sure as hell beats the desktop "boots" that attempt to reconstruct BWPS with the Beach Boys' version. Don't notice anything odd.

"Love To Say Da Da" -- 1:57 to 2:00 -- the "very high pitched and very quiet beeping": 1) first of all, you're admitting that it's very quiet when you're listening to studio quality headphones. Who the HELL is going to notice that if it's already very quiet and not using studio-quality headphones? 2) You know what? It's there the WHOLE track; it's only that noticeable because you pointed out a silent portion. The only reason you can't hear it later is that the music masks it. 3) That same high pitched beep (in the key of D-flat, btw) is also present in "Love To Say Da Da" on the Good Vibrations set. And the bootlegs. Conclusion: it's there on the original analog tape, not maskable without noise reduction. And you know how people feel about noise reduction.

[Andrew G. Doe]

So...monicker says "Any serious listening should be done with a pair of good quality studio headphones."

Oh, missed that in all the ruckus - so my $18 Sony MDR V150 cans, or my Logitech X-140 laptop speakers mean I've not been listening to anything seriously for some nine years, then ? I'm sooooooooooooooooooo grateful to you for pointing this out, 'cause it means that all the time I've been kidding myself I've been enjoying what I'm hearing - I've been fooling myself ! I've been listening frivolously and worse, missing all those errors and mistakes that should be making me cry with sheer frustration. Sir, I am forever in your debt for opening my eyes, and ears.

Actually, what I though was "what an arrogant berk*". I listen with what I can afford, and I listen to the music, not the equipment. Thankfully, I'm not an audiophile, I'm a music lover.

[* tiny etymology lesson: 'berk' comes from Cockney rhyming slang, and is a contraction of "Berkshire hunt": only discovered that a year or so ago, and it amused me no end  ]

[AllIWannaDo]

i really dissaprove of the heavy handed comments/replies and vise versa re the 'sound glitches' on this site

sorry but i have to say this but AGD in particular is coming across as 'well i cant hear them so your extreme, petty, coming across as a bit of a jerk, hypothesizing on Mark thinkn 'what a prick' etc etc'' i mean come on its a bit pathetic, grow up everyone (i also mean both sides here too).
it leaves whoever that is aimed at nowhere to go except to defend themselves, which then seems to get your back up, which then gets their backs up... a cycle of oppression surely?

i think we should just accept that sadly there are glitchs that are audible to a few people 'i include myself here' which, lets be logical, if you can hear a glitch, it follows logically that it will reduce the listening experience to an extent, but how much that extent is defo subjective, as shown with the posts on here. Some engineers i know FREAK at hearing 10 Mhz bleed throughs in music for eg, it's what their paid to remove/reduce as part of their job so yeah i can see why itd be annoying to them tbh, sure it's an extreme view but i can see where their coming from viewing that profession

sure it's a great boxset AGD filled with fantastic music, i don't think anyone is disputing that, however, you read as somewhat totalitarian in dismissing/ridiculing issues of sound impairment that some feel COULD have been addressed/lessened before it's release - is that such a problem for all concerned?

taking a step back from this - considering these are the main talking points you've gotta think WOW they've done well if these are the main problems, but yep it's abit of a shame that they're there, and that some people with better equipement/trained ears/etc happen to notice these

Lets just move on and talk about fav tracks, best versions, and for me, why ''Can't wait too long'' isn't included (whimper whimper, I love that piece of music!!)

chillout and enjoy the boxset people

[Andrew G. Doe]

Yup, I'm a regular Mike Love, ain't I just ?  Big bad bully, harassing the poor helpless poster who cries because the discs are unlistenable. Know something ?

Don't care.  

Like I said, if the 'problems' were on a par with the glitch in Incantations, which sounded just like a skip, then I'd be more sympathetic but, as has been demonstrated by several other posters, they're all but, or totally, inaudible, even when listening 'seriously'. More disturbingly to me, the poster hasn't made any other comment. Nothing positive. Me, I'm inclining towards the notion that it's Cohen using an alias. 

[bgas]

Yup, I'm a regular Mike Love, ain't I just ?  Big bad bully, harassing the poor helpless poster who cries because the discs are unlistenable. Know something ?

Don't care. 

are you going to rabbit all day? For if you are, you'll have ta speak up as I'm a bit mutton. Really, i think everyone should use their loaf a bit more before raisning their pen and ink.
as for myself, I'll have to go on my tod

[AllIWannaDo]

Yup, I'm a regular Mike Love, ain't I just ?  Big bad bully, harassing the poor helpless poster who cries because the discs are unlistenable. Know something ?

Don't care. 

haha - good bit of perspective...
i havent said it's unlistenable, quite the opposite, i know some have but hey let it be, Lets move on, accepct whats there, some people are p1ssed about it, some hear it an are abit dissapointed to but STILL think its a FANDABIDOSY boxset