The Smiley Smile Message Board

I'm sure this will stir people up into a raging fury. But it seems ridiculous to me how highly-regarded Dennis Wilson is in the Beach Boys fan community. Yes, Dennis wrote some good material in the 70s, and yes he was a good-looking guy with nice stage presence.

That being said, how in the world is this guy even compared to Brian Wilson, one of the greatest musical geniuses of all time? And yes, Brian is even viewed as an all-time genius by reputable classical musicians. Yet, around here--as witnessed in a thread that is currently near the top of this board--board members apparently think Dennis is essentially equal to Brian in talent. Are you guys really this crazy, or perhaps typing your messages in a drugged-up Wilson-like phase? That kind of assertion is insane. The fact that these two are even compared is a flat out joke.

Why didn't you just post this in the "Beach Boys or Dennis Wilson" thread? 

You trying to start a war?

I've been on these boards a long time. Dennis Wilson has always been highly regarded in the Beach Boys fan community and elsewhere, and unarguably second to Brian as far as talent in the band. I could go on and on about Dennis Wilson's music. There are so many positive adjectives to describe it. But I'll leave that to the books and articles written about the Beach Boys and Dennis specifically..

"Brian Wilson is the Beach Boys. He is the band. We're his fucking messengers. He is all of it. Period. We're nothing. He's everything."

That was a pretty humble statement made by Dennis back in '76 to describe his brother. When Brian took a hiatus for a few years, it was Dennis who really stepped up and wrote and produced and sang some pretty damn good music that filled in the blanks to those Beach Boys albums. He even 'sacrificed' a few of his songs so that the albums could be better. NOBODY else in the Beach Boys could come up with those great songs (and albums like POB and Bambu) like Dennis did.

Oh, that ought to settle the argument. Classical musicians? That is serious sh*t right there.

I agree that Brian is without a doubt the most talented Beach Boy (and this comes from a guy who loves pretty much everything Dennis ever wrote throughout his life), but why get all pissy if someone feels otherwise? Peoples' tastes differ - maybe some connect and can relate more to Dennis' music and personality than Brian's. On a board with 2000 members, opinions are going to differ, you know.

Objectively I'd say that Dennis at his peak couldn't touch Brian at his peak but that by the mid 70's and onwards it was Dennis who was making the better music by quite a considerable margin.

... but of course, that wasn't your intention at all, was it ?  ;D


Yes, he did, and yes he was.


Folk here may well think that. I, along with most level-headed posters here, would strongly disagree with them. Dennis at his absolute peak wasn't even close to Brian at his. Dennis' album is far and away the best of the official solo releases, but frankly, the competition isn't up to much, with maybe two exceptions.  Was Dennis as talented as Brian, taken overall ? No, of course not, but he was able to step up to bat when it was desperately needed.

BTW, the thread you cite as "proof" was started by someone who is strongly regarded as an incipient troll.

They each peaked in very different eras. Musical tastes, trends… even the technology was quite different. Each excelled in his own peak period. But no-one on Earth could hold a candle to Brian at his peak, not even John McMartin.

Good luck with this OP.

Seriously, when I first heard POB in the height of my obsession with smile and all things Brian Wilson I had a similar reaction to yours. Some of the tracks just sounded like the overblown soundtrack to an 80s cop show to my ears. But as time passed I came to realise the depth of DW's music. He really took the BB sound and fashioned something artistically viable and relevant for the 70s and it's tragic that the band couldn't follow his lead and appoint him as primary songwriter or at least give him more space on the albums. Although maybe he worked better alone and didn't need that responsibility.

I don't think many, if any, fans here believe DW to be the equal of BW at the peak of his powers.

In the sixties, no Dennis wasn't the equal to Brian - not even close.

In the seventies, yes I think he absolutely was, as the evidence shows:

Brian writes This Whole World and Our Sweet Love, Dennis writes Slip On Through and Forever.

Brian writes Til I Die, Dennis writes Wouldn't It Be Nice To Live Again.

Brian writes Marcella, Dennis writes Cuddle Up.

Brian writes Funky Pretty, Dennis writes Carry Me Home.

Dennis frequently matched Brian in terms of song quality in the '70's, and unlike Brian he maintained the quality (I mean honestly, was Brian capable of producing something as majestic as Baby Blue by 1978-9?).

I love Love You, but this is no longer a song writer in the same class as the one who wrote All I Wanna Do and Til I Die at the start of the decade. Meanwhile... Dennis was writing Thoughts Of You.

So of course Brian was overall the greater songwriter - his sixties peak is unmatched by anyone, let alone his brother - but I think it's a discredit to Dennis to claim Brian still had the edge over him in the 1970's. Dennis frequently matched him and occasionally outclassed him.

Wow I guess things have really cycled a 180 if you think about it. It wasn't too long ago...15 years or less...that Dennis was routinely labeled as the LEAST talented of the Beach Boys. I know it seems ridiculous to many of us now, but a little while back even solid Beach Boys fans and some "historians and authors" tried to tell us that Dennis was a good looking guy with nothing to back it up. They said he didn't sing much on the records (I know, did they ever really listen to a Beach Boys blend?)...they said he never played drums on the records (so stupid and untrue)...they even wrote in some cases that POB had no impact in it's time...geez buy a back issue of Rolling Stone or Creem. Anyway...he became the poster child for "most underrated Beach Boy" by a whole lot of people who started paying attention. Now...in 2013 we got a guy telling us he's "Insanely Overrated"...I got a good laugh out of that one.

Agreed, he's not *that* great. All of the band members deserve their due justice, but I wouldn't give a sh*t about the Beach Boys if it weren't for Brian Wilson, there's no getting around that fact. Embrace the darkness.

Dennis is "insanely overrated"?!!!???

THAT! IS! IT!!!!

(http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/5/4739/tumblr_m0nnkicJ5g1qjryfno1_500.gif)

Dennis was a good songwriter, a good singer (before he wrecked his voice), a talented multi-instrumentalist, a fine arranger and producer. I'd rate him as a musician as roughly equal with his one-time girlfriend, Christine McVie.

That's saying a lot, Clack!

Pixel, that was a good one!  ;D

Dennis impressed me as a "late bloomer." Not everyone has a learning curve that travels upon the same continuum.  It is inherently unjust to compare him to Brian, whose background and study included college level music composition. Dennis was sort of the "on the job training" guy.  His abilities were apparently attacked by old Murry, and was regarded as not any more significant than a "clubber."  

That said, he brought an undeniable verve to the band, without which not, might have led to a limited "idea pool" and concept-source for the band's songwriting efforts.  Brian certainly depended on Dennis in the early days for idea and theme concepts. Dennis was in his big brother's shadow. How does one compete with that? Is it even fair to be compared in that fashion?

Dennis seemed to come into bloom later, with colleagues who were confidence builders "from without" some of whom are experts on this forum.  It isn't fair to compare siblings.  Each brings a skill set and talent set that should not be under estimated.  It is too bad that his addictions got in the way of his talent.  Dennis wrote in a profoundly simple manner, often from a "darker place" than Brian.  His work did not enjoy the same marketing as Brian/BB work.  What is clear is that the little we have left of Dennis' work has endured.  And, in fairness, Stamos did promote "Forever" to the masses in a way that would never have happened otherwise.  And Pet Sounds was not properly promoted, but has proved over and over to be enduring.  

And, I would not call him "overrated" but "undervalued" or "underappreciated."   ;)

Who ever said he was comparable to Brian? Nobody, as far as I know.

As great as Brian? Nope.
Comparable? Hell yeah (evidence: POB, Bambu, the magnificent songs DW did for the BB).

It's all subjective but I don't think any of those Dennis songs (as much as I like them) match up to the Brian examples given. It's a shame that Brian's genius died after the Holland album - those early 70's songs of his are my favourite era for him.

Fair enough. Meanwhile I think Cuddle Up is so vastly superior to Marcella that it almost brings tears to my eyes to hear anyone claiming otherwise... But hey, opinions etc.

I think if the OP had stopped at "Dennis Wilson is insane", he'd have had a rousing chorus of agreement.  :)

Dennis is not overrated, and he is certainly not insanely overrated.

I agree 100% with filledeplage here. I've been a huge fan of Dennis' music, ever since Sunflower for certain. All three Wilson brothers were brilliantly talented, each in his own way.

Exactly. It has to be said that there seems to be large number of people on here who don't actually like a vast quantity of actual Beach Boys music.








































Oh, and 'It's Over Now' is awful.

You fiend!

Dennis is "insanely overrated" relative to assertions in posts about Dennis and Brian on this board, and not just a recent thread. Obviously we all love the Beach Boys. But that doesn't mean we have to pretend that Dennis Wilson was the second-coming of Beethoven. Obviously, the majority of Beach Boys die hards don't believe that, so I certainly don't want to accuse everyone of holding that opinion. But I have witnessed a vocal minority on this board essentially say that Dennis is as good as Brian. Considering Brian's enormous and rare talent, it's hard to believe that some people hold that bizarre opinion. We don't need to show our support for Dennis and the Beach Boys by making clearly false assertions.

Regarding a few common responses, yes Dennis was probably a better songwriter than Brian in the mid-70s. I wouldn't argue that.  But Brian at his peak versus Dennis at his peak...the two are nowhere even close.

The quote Dennis himself made about the Beach Boys should probably be taken to heart by some fans, even though it was clearly an exaggeration and did not give the other guys nearly enough credit. Dennis was certainly a talented guy who is UNDERRATED by the general public and general Beach Boys fan base. Still, the reality is that Brian was a creative tour de force. There were very few musicians comparable to him in the world, let alone his own band.

Dennis would be the first to agree with your last sentence. And a big part of his problem is that he was always compared to brian, no matter what, which really had to suck...for the reasons you already stated. That's a high bar to reach. Lindsey Buckingham succinctly said Dennis was the closest thing there was to Brian Wilson, he was about half way there. I think what Lindsey was saying is nobody can come close to brian, but there was a guy who was heading in the right direction. Dennis understood Brian's "formula" in a way no one else did. It's all through his music. Not in an obvious way. But in an inside way. You listen to the chords, inversions, choices of bass notes, choices of instrument combinations in his arrangements. He dabbled in harmony, but it was more in the way he put his tracks together that you see fingerprints of Brian. I know a lot of Beach Boys people don't even get that. But ask Desper, ask Hanlon, ask Carl (sorry we can't), ask Daryl Dragon...the list is long. Dennis was Brian's biggest fan, and he shared his secrets on tape. But unlike Brian, Dennis had a relationship with '70's "rock"...if you dig it you'll embrace it, if not it just sounds derivative and plodding. But when it really came together for Dennis he took Brian's sonic bliss, and added his muscle to it...sort of like Led Zeppelin meets Spector. You can hear it in River Song. That is something Brian could not have done. That track is beyond Brian's capabilities in 1975-77. It's gospel/metal with a total Beach Boys vibe happening within it that has nothing to do with "retro"...it's purely moving forward...it grabs the Beach Boys by the collar and drags them into the now. Here's what we could be. Here's what we should be. Dennis knew the way when Brian did not. This is why people make that comparison, and sometimes in DW's favor. Personally for me, Brian is the master, Dennis is the warrior.

Brian made music to please his father.

Dennis made music to please himself.

That's the difference in a nutshell. Brian, the introvert, made music in an attempt to find love and companionship. Dennis, the extrovert, made it to express himself in all his overwrought complexity. Totally different guys, making music for totally different reasons.

You fiend!

You fiend!

Funny I was just thinking recently how amazing "It's Over Now" and "Still I Dream Of It" is. Speaking of Dennis, I wish Adult Child could have been a few of those songs from those sessions with some Dennis songs thrown in there. Would have been classic.

As for the thread, Dennis did "Cuddle Up". He did "River Song". He did "Farewell My Friend". If anyone can get the closest to the most  heartbreakingly beautiful, emotional, tearjerking music Brian was capable of, it's him.

         

You friend!

Is there an in-depth analysis of Dennis's songs anywhere? I'd be interested to see how his "melodic invention" and use of chords, etc. compares to Brian and others. I'm no musicologist or anything but he does have a distinct style. I'd say his singing and delivery add a dimension of emotion (or whatever you want to call it) that elevates his songs.

I use to think that Dennis essentially died trying to prove himself to his family and to an extent the world. Pretty much his entire adult life he played second fiddle to Brian and I think especially in the 70's, he wanted to be acknowledged for his music, but I don't think he ever really was. I mean, those statements about him and his music by Brian and Al in the Endless Harmony doc - did they ever tell Dennis that in person? Especially Mike and his brothers - all they ever did was give Dennis crap in the 70's (some deserved). POB got some good sales and that must have given him confidence and inspired him a little to write more, and he didn't have the confidence to tour POB without The Beach Boys. Murry didn't live to see all of Dennis' work come to fruition and I think he would have been proud and that alone I think would have made Dennis feel better about himself.

One thing that I think about is how Brian must have felt about Dennis' musical development and freedom.  In the '70's, here was Dennis, recording whenever and whatever he wanted, and basically being allowed the freedom to do so. If Dennis wanted to do solo stuff, he basically could. If he wanted to give or withhold material from the band, he pretty much could . But if Brian started to work on anything, there was the band, pushing him to "write a hit". There was the manager, running to the press to tell all that "Brian will be all over the new album". Drag Brian to Holland, drag him to Caribou, drag him to Miami. Jeez, the damned studio was in his house for years, if Brian touched the piano, there were hands out, asking for the bread-winner to feed them all. I imagine Brian may have been jealous of Dennis' relative lack of that pressure. And maybe Dennis had a bit of fear over whether the same thing might happen to him if, say, "River Song" became a big Beach Boys hit .

His songs are nowhere near as complex or well developed as Brian's music. That much can be ascertained just by listening. Songs like "Cuddle Up" and "Make It Good" sound like he didn't know where he wanted them to go, and are similarly marred by lyrical pointlessness.

Comparing Brian to Dennis is like comparing Gershwin to Beethoven, or Elvis to Johnny Cash; neither is better, both are great, but different.

Each of The Wilson Brothers (as well as each Beach Boy) had special gifts the others either didn't have or were not as good at, which of course just makes for a better group with more variety and charisma. So, I don't see any issue or any reason to compare Dennis to Brian.... Dennis peaked with a solo project that really didn't have anything to do with The Beach Boys letalone Brian and with material that was very very unlike anything Brian had and would ever produce. And that album is a singular, distinct work of genius and it's as good or better than anything Brian ever did........ yet so different that there's no reason to compare.... Once again here we go dissing someone else because to praise them somehow threatens poor little Brian! ... I thought we were long past this!

Here's My Opinion:
Brian: Lennon/McCartney/Martin
Dennis: Harrison

And as for the best work for ALL Beach Boys:
Best 60's BB's work: Brian Wilson (No Contest, and a No Brainer)
Best 60's Solo work: Bruce Johnston (I'm not familiar with David Marks's solo work, and Surfers' Pyjama Party is a brilliant album)
Best 70's BB's work: Dennis Wilson (Brian may have made Love You, but Dennis outshines him significantly in the 70's. IMHO No Contest!)
Best 70's Solo work: Dennis Wilson (Pacific Ocean Blue may possibly be the greatest BB's related album other than Pet Sounds/Smile)
Best 80's BB's work: Carl Wilson (The 85 album is a great album, and that's thanks to Carl!)
Best 80's Solo work: Brian Wilson (His 88 album is a pretty good album, despite Brian being under Landy's control at the time)
Best 90's BB's work: Carl Wilson (SIP may be Mike-dominated, and one hell of a sh*t album, but Carl still did great vocal work on that)
Best 90's Solo work: Brian Wilson (Imagination is a brilliant solo album, and it's got Lay Down Burden. How can you compete with that?)
Best 00's BB's work: N/A (There was none)
Best 00's Solo work: Brian Wilson (Brian Wilson Presents Smile, That Lucky Old Sun, what more could I say?)
Best 10's BB's work (So Far): Brian Wilson (That's Why God Made The Radio is the BB's best album since the 85 album, and it's all thanks to Brian!)
Best 10's Solo work (So Far): Al Jardine (A Postcard From California is a great album, plus it has Don't Fight The Sea!)


Anyway, as for Dennis being overrated? Not at all!
Dennis being underrated? In the General Public, hell yes! With the Casual BB's fan's, Yes! With this forum, and other hardcore fans, for the most part he is rated just right: Second best to Brian Wilson.

I disagree with the bolded portion, give or take a couple songs and especially 'River Song,' I like Dennis' Beach Boys contributions more than his solo stuff.

I'd say Dennis peaked with 'Forever,' 'Cuddle Up' or 'WIBNTLA.'

IMO, Denny's music really grows on you. I'd always liked his music, but over the years, to my ears, it just gets better and better the deeper you dissect the composition, and listen to the true, true aching in the vocals, his bleeding on tape. I think that some people who don't "get" his music just haven't given it enough of a chance to grow on them.

I absolutely think that learning more about the man, his history/timeline, etc. got me deeper into his music (much like with many artists, of course, but with his music in particular)... but it's also that Denny's work isn't always quite as accessible on initial listenings.  The songs often have more unconventional structures/changes.

I really feel that much of his POB/Bambu work was influenced partially by SMiLE, as far as unconventional and experimental structures/changes happening. Denny clearly was enamored with the SMiLE album, and while his late 70s work was very different compared to SMiLE in terms of its textures/vibe, the structural and emotional ground that he was plowing was nevertheless really intricate and powerful (much like Brian's best work), and those are the areas where he was truly excelling/maturing at as an artist. It really, really sucks we will never know where he might have gone artistically.

Anyone else think that "School Girl" is one of the great lost BB-related hits? It sounds like a very calculated and clear cut attempt to make a popular radio hit (and I mean that in a good way), and I think it could've been a successful single, had it been marketed/released/promoted properly.

There's no better example of apples and oranges than the whole Dennis vs. Brian bit. Especially because people compare Dennis' late-'60s/'70s works with Brian's pre-'67 "heyday." But, whatever...

The similarities are that both tied the spiritual with the romantic. Brian's thing -- even PET SOUNDS -- was based on a prolonged adolescence. Even his later works always had one foot in adolescent or naive love. Brian was a kid of the '50s and he wrote about affairs of the the heart using Eisenhower colors. The romance always stayed teen-based.  In 1966 he's still singing about what a dream come true it would be to have sex and actually sleep over at a girl's house. 1966!!!!! That's the same year as "Visions Of Johanna," REVOLVER -- and he's taking about "what if's" like he's 15. He was able to go deeper and further in many other areas, but romantically -- in his music -- he was stunted. Even "Our Sweet Love" has far more to do with The Fleetwoods than "Be With Me." Dennis Wilson's thing was man/woman. Primal sh it. It's also very dark and spiritual, but there's a physicality in all of it . There's actual sexuality. Brian never got there. Dennis' romantic works (as if any of them weren't...) were full of ADULT passions. "Tug Of Love" vs. "...Tomboy." I'm not saying that Dennis wasn't damaged, too -- but Dennis was OF the Earth when Brian GONE and writing ridiculous music, e.g. "Lazy Lizzy." We all love that kind of stuff -- because it's brilliant -- but it's absurd music. Whether one digs it or not, Dennis never made invalid music.

Dennis Wilson's stuff is huge. And to say it's overrated -- in any circle at any point -- is simply spraying graffiti on somebody's a garage door for attention.

Well, it seems fair to compare what are regarded as each other's peaks.

The only thing that Brian had, that Dennis didn't, was access to more resources.  Brian's ability to concoct layers of harmony, for example -- on a piano, or in a barbershop quartet -- bordered on savant.  Mozart.  Bach.  Just an unbelievable capacity to visualize a physical formula in space.

Dennis had a mind like most guys.  But both he and Brian had no difficulty -- and equal talent -- in expressing themselves through music.  I think Brian actually lost (much? some?) of his ability to do this after Landy "cut the wires."  The savant is there... but the regular mind, is damaged.


I've learned a lot, in my short years, about the elusive definition of intelligence -- and thus "genius."  Athletes can be brilliant.  Even genius.  I love genius.  I think Dennis started to find his genius.  Then drank it back away.  Brian certainly did, for awhile.  Brian's genius, coupled with his almost freakish capacity to visualize auditory and harmonic equations (who the fck figures out the Four Freshman harmonies as a kid!!??!!!) made for one of the most fascinating shooting stars in music.


Dennis, however... I think appreciating Dennis' music is a great way to learn about these things.  He didn't have those resources -- the gifts that Brian had.  He had his own, for sure.  But Dennis made due with the rudimentary.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-0QvosToVXis/T8mWlNukN8I/AAAAAAAAEeI/F-GAACRdtco/s400/B.brian-and-dennis.jpg)

Absolutely.

True...but not everybody is in agreement on what time period constitutes their peaks! Many are, true, but it's not quite universal (especially in Dennis's case)

Wonderful post, and I think you are right on the money here....

It's easy to see what Dennis could do when he did have access to resources. We have POB because of his basically unlimited access to rescources for a time.

I agree with that. Dennis was coming up with great stuff in the Sunflower/Holland era. I like POB, but I don't hear it as the masterpiece described on this board. IMHO, Carl is the most underrated Beach Boy. Wish I could break it down in an analytical way for you all, the way so many of the musicologists here can, but all I can tell you is that if Carl sang it, I have to hear it over and over and it never gets old for me. He wasn't as prolific a writer as his brothers, but I can't think of anything he wrote that I don't like.

This Brianista troll agrees (almost). :)

On the other hand, I disagree with you to such an extent that I won't even bother explaining why. I'll say only that: Dude, I am the greatest Dennis fan around, but you can praise Dennis without treating Brian as some kind of idiot who never grew up (though I understand it's an all too common sport here). Bother you. And I'm sure you don't own a mellotron, either. Don't let me get started about your ideas of "ridiculous music", "absurd music" and "invalid music". What's sad is that, of all the posters here, only a self-styled troll like me will say anything against such nonsense.  

To say something instead of only answering: Dennis died in 1983, God Only Knows what he could have done (but I think he would be as great as Brian, now). Brian didn't, and reading the posts here it seems most of you actually regret that. You treat everything Brian did after 1967/1970/1973/1976 (according to how deep your particular bias runs) as negligible. Like there was no Rio Grande. No That Lucky Old Sun. No Gershwin. No 4 last songs in TWGMTR. Hell, I would dump all those damn surf/cars/girls songs for Brian's solo career.

Returning to the topic of this thread: Dennis had not much of a solo career. If he had, you'd all be slashing him to pieces like you do to Brian.

You behave as Brian drove over a whole pack of your dogs. As it's about the whole extent of your contributions to this board, you're a troll like me, but I admit it.

Have to say this before being banned: agree that Carl is the most underrated Beach Boy.

I'm not quite sure how to rate Carl as a songwriter. He didn't write much throughout his career and much of it was mediocre. But and it's a big but, he wrote my favourite BB song ever "The Trader", as well as "Feel Flows" which is in my top 5 Beach Boys songs. He also wrote "Where I Belong", for me; hands down the best BB song of the 80's. Plus his name is also credited on River Song, which is none too shabby a tune.

I put together a comp of BB stuff from 68 - the present. It's not meant to be a best of, just stuff I like, perhaps the more arty progressive stuff, so I make no apologies for leaving out Kokomo or It's Okay.  Here it is, over four discs:

Disc 1

01.   Old Man River (vocal section) 02.   Soulful Old Man Sunshine 03.   Break Away (alt. version) 04.   Celebrate The News 05.   Sail Plane Song/Carnival 06.   Cotton Fields (The Cotton Song) (single version) 07.   Where Is She? 08.   All I Wanna Do 09.   This Whole World 10.   Slip On Through 11.   Forever 12.   Tears In The Morning 13.   Cool, Cool Water 14.   Fallin' In Love (Dennis) 15.   Sound Of Free (Dennis) 16.   How Sweet (Charles Lloyd with Mike) 17.   Feel Flows 18.   A Day In The Life Of A Tree 19.   Big Sur (early version) 20.   (Wouldn't It Be Nice To) Live Again


Disc 2

01.   Long Promised Road 02.   Disney Girls (1957) 03.   Lookin' At Tomorrow (A Welfare Song) 04.   4th Of July 05.   'Til I Die 06.   Surf's Up 07.   Out In The Country 08.   You Need A Mess Of Help To Stand Alone 09.   Marcella 10.   Hold On Dear Brother 11.   Cuddle Up 12.   TM (Charles Lloyd with Carl, Mike and Alan) 13.   All This Is That 14.   Sail On Sailor 15.   California Saga (On My Way To Sunny Californ-I-A) 16.   Funky Pretty 17.   We Got Love


Disc 3

01.   The Trader 02.   Carry Me Home 03.   Steamboat 04.   Dom Dom Kingdom 05.   Sweet Mountain (Spring with Brian) 06.   Wishing You Were Here (Chicago with Carl, Dennis and Al) 07.   Had To Phone Ya 08.   Just Once In My Life 09.   Johnny Carson 10.   I'll Bet He's Nice 11.   The Night Was So Young 12.   Lines 13.   That Same Song (with the Double Rock Baptist Choir) 14.   Pitter Patter 15.   Winter Symphony 16.   My Diane 17.    River Song (Dennis) 18.   Pacific Ocean Blues (Dennis) 19.   Moonshine (Dennis) 20.   My Love Lives On (Dennis)


Disc 4

01.   Good Timin' 02.   Baby Blue 03.   Love Surrounds Me 04.   Looking Down The Coast (original version) 05.   California Feelin' 06.   Country Pie (Celebration with Mike) 07.   Angel Come Home 08.   Love Remember Me (Dennis) 09.   Santa Ana Winds 10.   Heaven (Carl) 11.   Where I Belong 12.   Melt Away (Brian) 13.   Somewhere Near Japan 14.   You're Still A Mystery 15.   Midnight's Another Day/Lucky Old Sun Reprise (Brian) 16.   California Dreamin' (Al with David Crosby, Glen Campbell) 17.   Strange World 18.   Think About The Days 19.   From There To Back Again

Apart from the duly noted DW tracks, notice how many of the rest he either wrote or sang. Granted, I've gone for a certain kind of vibe, but you can't seriously tell me he's overrated.

Carl is indeed credited as co-writer on River Song and yet Dennis gets all the praise.

Carl is also credited as co-writer on I Went To Sleep, Good Timin', Our Sweet Love, etc. and yet they're always referred to as 'Brian songs'.

And I'm willing to bet that the bits of All This Is That that Carl wrote are his own vocal sections i.e. the undisputed highlights of the song.

And yep, I too would put Trader and Feel Flows in my all-time top ten, and Where I Belong too.

Hell, i even like Goin' South. In fact, one day I'll be in a wooden cabin in Winter, deep within a snowy forest, with a log fire burning and a glass of mulled wine to hand, and Goin' South will be playing, and a kind of perfection will have been achieved.

Perhaps Carl would have been a more prolific songwriter had he not had to spend so much time worrying and carrying about his wild brothers...

I gotta say... that's a damn-good comp.  Seeing "Love Remember Me" on there, obviously reminded me of that song... and hearing it in my head as I type, it's just fking unreal good.  There's few songs that make me have to stop what I'm doing. You know?

Good points.  Carl was certainly integral, and we may never know his full contribution.  Although, when he sings, it's unmistakable.  You know, I've heard people, who don't like the Beach Boys, say they love "I Can Hear Music" and its the best Beach Boys song.  While I don't agree obviously, its someone's valid opinion, and something I found moving, and evidence that with Carl (as with Dennis) there was even more of an audience waiting to be reached by this band.  Brian was just a part, potentially.  Oh... those wasted years.

Carl was the man.

Makes you wonder why goofy threads like this get started in the first place, eh Ed?

I really like Goin' South.. Doesn't help that I live in FL now, but when I lived up north, listening to it during winter time when snow was on the ground, fireplace lit, staying cozy in my house during the holidays.. it gives you a really nice warm feeling. It's perfect for the feeling its trying to convey.

I think Carl IS probably the most underrated Beach Boy. People talk about Dennis and praise him. I don't think he gets praised quite enough (this overrated business is ridiculous) but still, there are people out there devoted to his music and sing his praises. I don't really see much praise for Carl. People acknowledge that he has a great voice, but the only praise I really see for him is "God Only Knows" and obvious stuff. Maybe that and "I Can Hear Music".. Aside from this board, I don't remember seeing any praises for Carl anywhere except maybe Endless Harmony or some doc.

Good call on the co-writing credits too. I don't know if a lot of people realize how much he collaborated with Brian, and though it's a 50/50 credit with half in his favor, no one says anything except maybe once in a blue moon on this board about his contributions. I really wonder what he contributed to certain songs actually.

He also co-wrote "Friends", "Sail Plane Song" (which strangely, the credits totally changed when turned into Loop De Loop) and he seemed to do a lot of help production wise on certain songs/albums. He helped Brian finish Surf's Up and Love You and I'm sure there's other things he helped Brian with that I can't remember right now.

Speaking of more of audience waiting to be reached by this band, I'm happy to say that I got my mom (who is a child of the 60s) into Dennis' music.  And I can't get her into the BBs to save my life.

My mom was never much of a BB fan (though she likes "Don't Worry Baby"), but in general she doesn't feel that emotional spark or connection to BB music, which I chalk up to both personal taste, as well as bias from the cheesy lilly-white goody-two-shoes BB stereotype that was surely well prevalent in LA in the 60s, where she grew up as a teen. Her fave bands of the era include The Beatles, The Byrds, Dylan, Joan Baez, etc. Mind you, she actually attended The T.A.M.I. show in the audience... but The Stones are the band that left her awestruck. The most praise she'll give the BBs when I play her tracks is "well, I guess that sounds nice, but it doesn't really do anything for me"... and I've even gone as far as to sit her down and play her The Smile Sessions album reconstruction from start to finish. No dice in making her a BB fan, even when giving her a brief history lesson of Smile in relation to Sgt. Pepper (an album which she deeply loves).

But... when I played her POB, she instantly liked it. Now, one could argue that her taste just gravitates toward a different style than typical BB songs (and it is difficult to say there is a "typical" BB style, with all the styles this band has done throughout the years). But it tells me something: Denny was on to something very special and unique which truly connected to people way outside of the BB universe.

Your mom still has pretty good taste in music and it is ok if she isn't wild about the BB's.  But, she is a wonderful resource of info about how the music of that time evolved.  And she would have great insight anyway.  It is pretty extraordinary that you got her to listen to POB! Bravo and a  :beer for you both!

And, the BB's are connected in lots of ways to the Beatles.  They are a mutual admiration society of sorts, and I think found inspiration from one another.   She must be amazed that you are so interested in this generation of music.  And, she went to the T.A.M.I. Show!  That is historic!

Good for you, both!   ;)

Don't Worry Baby got you in the door!   :lol

You tried playing her Holland? Sounds like that'd be way more her cup of tea than something like Smile. And you should leave her to listen to it alone, rather than being there to point out how brilliant it all is. Feel Flows is also a good one to play sceptics.

Yeah, I’m more or less done trying to “convert” her to realize the brilliance of this band. I did play her a few “wilderness years” deep cuts here and there (possibly some Holland stuff), plus Pet Sounds - but didn’t get much response. She won’t really connect with any of it… but POB was a different story – and she seemed to “get it” upon just 1 listen. It’s not like she’s some tremendous Denny fan now or anything, but she digs the album - POB resonated with her in a way very quickly, in a way that the BB never really did. Now maybe part of it is also partly psychological, since the name Dennis Wilson doesn’t have the “BB” stereotype baggage that a song under the “BB” banner could have to someone who grew up with the BB stereotype deeply ingrained; but still, I feel it’s indicative of Denny’s solo music having a special something, that even goes beyond what the cream of the BW-penned BB song crop has. But at the end of the day, it is comparing apples and oranges.

For me, being a tremendous fan of 60s music in general, I felt I’d want to do my part to get her into the BB, probably the most overlooked bands of the era for her. But maybe I went wrong when trying to tell her the BBs are in a similar league to The Beatles. She has a tremendous emotional and sentimental attachment to The Beatles; she says listening to them is like “listening to friends”. Unfortunately, actually listening to “Friends” has no effect on her.  ;D

Agreed. Although really the Gershwin album is just an album of covers.

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned how dated Dennis's music sounds. Dennis's songs were very derivative of contemporary 60s and 70s music and are much harder to appreciate imo than Brian's much more creative songwriting.  You may say that Brian could never make anything like POB, but that's because Brian's musical and lyrical ideas far surpassed contemporary cliches.

I honestly think it overrates Dennis to consider him the second best songwriter of the band after Brian. None of the other members of the band deserve the privilege to be compared to Brian in that capacity. Dennis may have written a couple good songs, but not enough to compare him to the man who wrote all of the music that makes the band special.

This is similar to the broad brush Brian's detractors paint him with because his music is so obviously derivative of '50's and early 60's music...doo wop, Berry, Spector, etc... It's  a bad argument because each guy took the influences that were meaningful to them and made it unique in their own way.

I do believe JON is correct.. Great analogy..

Not a bad argument at all. Brian really made something of his influences: Pet Sounds and Smile. Though he still drew on Spector for inspiration, his gifts for melody and production were so well developed by that time he was able to make music that really transcended his influences, and sounded like nothing produced before or since. I seriously can't even think of a Dennis song that sounds "unique" in any capacity. Even "Forever" sounds like it could have been written by anybody.

I hate commenting on threads which are based on one persons opinion and rarely post lately anyway. But I just would like to add that discovering more  of DW work with particular reference to POB,Bambu and MIC box has for been a revelation. DW music to me seems more relevant now more than ever it sounds fresh, soulful and leaps out to me. It feels natural and in touch with my surrounds (Australia-water, nature, coastline and love). I now listen to a "best of" DW mix comprised of his Beach Boys and solo work and it is my preferred option most days.

All of this obviously ventures into IMHO territory, but while there is a very distinctly "of its time" element to much of Denny's POB/Bambu music (synths, etc), it doesn't bug me in the slightest. It doesn't scream "whoa, look at this dated 70s gimmick" anymore than when I listen to Pink Floyd. It fits the music, and it was being progressive at the time.  To me, it still sounds amazing and powerful.

Now, compare to BB songs like "Bluebirds Over the Mountain" or "Student Demonstration Time", or Al's "rad" lyrics in "California Calling", all of which seem much more dated.

I agree with all this. I don't think that music needs to be progressive like Smile to be enjoyable. What I have been trying to say about Dennis for a long time on this board is that I just find his music "typical." His songs -- to paraquote his entire recorded output -- is something like: "I loooooove youuuu, yooour loooove is beaaaautifuuuul, maaaaaaaakin' looooove." Just very dated stuff that doesn't have much resonance today. The cliches of the time.

I know the lyrics of even the best early Beach Boys songs are dated, but at least those songs have much stronger melodies than anything Dennis ever composed. Those songs resonate in their simplicity and transcend their subject matter.

Interestingly, I actually used to feel quite similar to you about his music. I liked it enough, but it overall still seemed kinda mushy and plodding at times. (Maybe the only Denny song that I still kinda sorta feel that way about is Make it Good, which I find overwrought). But it just grew on me more and more over time. It seems less "typical" to my ears, and more the work of someone who wasn't formally trained, wasn't adhering to convention, and was really singing from an emotional place in his heart.

Again, I respect your opinions and you got guts (unless you're trolling), but, again, I have to disagree with you.

IMO, much of Dennis Wilson's music sounds as contemporary today as it did when it was recorded 40 years ago. I would include in that list:

- Lady
- Cuddle Up
- Steamboat
- Only With You
- Baby Blue
- River Song
- You And I
- Moonshine
- Thoughts Of You
- End Of The Show

That's 10 songs; I think there's more. I could easily hear them on an album today - using the same versions - and I think they would sound very much 2013. Or 2014. IMO :police:

I have to agree with Gabo for the most part, but I do like some of Dennis's songs ("Be with Me," "Celebrate the News," "Never Learn Not to Love," "Slip On Through," "WIBNTLA," "My Love Lives On.") Most of his work just isn't that impressive to me and is sort-of boring.

Like Gabo said, most of the lyrics are really cliched and the melodies aren't too great, either. Also, his music has never really caught my attention. Most of it seems bland, but I appreciate his attempts to experiment, like "Steamboat."
To me, Dennis would be like if Brian had grown up on 70's rock.

I've listened to POB once or twice, hoping it would live up to everything I've heard. It kinda let me down. It seemed like an average seventies release spurred on by the romanticism of Dennis's story. It's his swan song. It seems like, from reading people's response, that they mostly love Dennis's music from learning about his past, which isn't really a fair way to judge music. Although, I'll admit, it happens all the time to Brian as well.

I once read/heard a description of "Only with You" that I dig: "It's not as good as it thinks it is."

I do, however, love Carl.

I think the hype of POB can be harmful for someone listening to it expecting something grandiose and brilliant. When I first heard it I couldn't really get into it much either. I always loved his stuff, especially the piano ballads in the Beach Boys but POB came across as more straight forward 70's rock to me that was kind of boring at times and I didn't feel it had any strong melodies. Compared to Brian's music, even at the time, it really doesn't but it has a lot of depth to it. There's a lot of creative things going on in it. It's very unusual too and not really like any other album in 1977. Some weird arrangements on that album and song structures that got in my skin over time. "Friday Night" and "Dreamer" are 2 pretty strange and unique arrangements for example.

The Beach Boys would have been severely diminished had Dennis not been in the group. His visceral music and magnetism attracted women to a group whose music,  at last initially, was mostly about cars and surfing. Brian and Carl were not the focus in those early years.....almost all eyes were on Dennis. Dennis  exuded sexual energy, as did his music. He brought charisma to a group who desperately needed it. As time passed, Brian taught Carl and Dennis studio craftsmanship, and they ran with it, with each of them shining in his own way. Carl shined as a producer/studio facilitator, vocalist, and composer. Dennis brought sexuality and emotional intensity  to his music in a sensual manner that made him admired by men, and caused women to be attracted almost before they even knew what was happening to them.  Dennis was an alpha male, and yet at the same time was able to expose a type of vulnerability that made women want to forgive him, even when he was "misbehaving."  Just ask any of his former wives or lovers.  His songs are full of this duality, and it is that quality that makes his music so earthy, so powerful.

If Brian ran over a pack of my dogs, the tone would be quite a bit more severe, but thank you for the kinda analysis..... I actually meant exactly what I said. No more and no less.... Qutie the overly sensetive and quick to insult newish lot around here.... I hardly every post anymore and quite likely will not as soon as the force of habit wears off. But insulting me will just make me post more.... Just sayin......

Just watch The T.A.M.I show! There are some shots from behind the Boys where you can see that the entire mass of screaming girls are literally all turned toward Dennis and basically away from the other guys!!!

If there was greatness in Dennis's music, it lies mostly in the intangibles -- the intensity, the sensuality, the vulnerability. A certain hard to define charisma.

Because if you look at the true greats of Dennis's era -- Brian, Stevie Wonder, Neil Young, Paul Simon, or Joni Mitchell for instance -- Dennis's songs don't measure up to the higher standards of those artists at their best. In that sense, if people are claiming that Dennis was a musical genius, then Dennis is indeed overrated. If people believe that Dennis was just a drummer who contributed the occasional song -- another Ringo Starr, in essence -- than Dennis is underrated.

He wrote Wouldn't It Be Nice (To Live Again), he can't possibly be overrated.

I see your point and agree, however: to me, Dennis need not be compared to people like Brian: absolute masters and authoirities on formal form/structure and also masters on breaking up/throwing out formal form and structure..... The problem with Dennis in relation to The Beach Boys stigma (and let's be honest, with Dennis, ultimatly it was a stigma) is that he has much more in common with such rebellious and transgressive artists such as Lou Reed, Alex Chilton, John Cale, Kevin Ayers, Nico, Richard Thompson, and the like ..... People don't generally compare those guys to people like Brian or Bacharach, or Mozart, etc, because the important thing with such artists is how they subverted and personalized whatever it is that makes someone a talented writer/composer/singer/musician. Their personalities and quirks were seen as just as valuable as Brian's gifts/skills.... Of course Brian proved he could do all that other stuff too, but as far as Dennis being compared with Brian at his peak, I just happen to think it's unwarrented..... Just my opinion....... Also, Dennis as just a drummer wasn't anything to scoff at either.

Actually, "Feel Flows" is a song that could turn me into a sceptic. Jing jang jing jang jing jang jing jang jing jang jing jang jing jang jing jang jing jang (ad infinitum)........ That song doesn't do anything for me.

Personally, I think from 1969 until his death Dennis was a better songwriter than Brian. (If you don't compare Breakaway with its flip side, that is! :))

I'm not really sure if I would bunch Dennis in with that group.

This is how I see it: Brian Wilson is to Ray Davies as Dennis Wilson is to Dave Davies.

An even better way to put it...

He wrote Wouldn't It Be Nice (To Live Again). And River Song, Slip On Through, Lady, Cuddle Up, Forever, 4th of July, It's About Time, Moonshine, Celebrate The News, Thoughts of You, Baby Blue, Carry Me Home - he can't possibly be overrated.

All true. And besides, what on earth is wrong with sounding 'of the time' anyway?? I mean, the Blade Runner soundtrack was unmistakably written in early '80's - doesn't change the fact that it's brilliant!

And you call Dennis insanely overrated?

 :lol

'Cuddle Up' is insanely overrated, I'll give him that at least.

Mr. Reum, you are my favorite BBs insider (at least, you don't involve yourself in all the angry talks the board rushes in sometimes) & just one of the nicest people, but I have to object to you on Dennis. Yes, he isn't ugly & mildly good-looking but the 1st time I saw the band's collective image (circa early 60s), he didn't grab my attention. You would say it's only a photo & of average quality one, but even viewing the videos I never had this thought that "Wow, Dennis looks cool!" My point is, good looks & charisma isn't the essential thing in music-performing. Whoever in mass media created that cliched ideology is immensely stupid, full stop. Isn't it annoying when, say, a very diplomatic lady goes to a BBs concert with her well-bred 15-year-old daughter & they cannot hear the actual singing, only screaming teenage girls? Think about it. And while you think, I'll add - those idolized the most by the girls/guys in the audience are really poor people, because no one takes them seriously. That's why Dennis is underrated as opposed to overrated. He quickly lost talent, sadly.

[I almost foresee filledeplage won't agree with me, judging by what she's written.]

Dennis unquestionably did some great work. Some of his material ranks with the best of the group's output.  But Brian was able to get his music to the masses, whereas Dennis is more of a cult figure. Brian had the pressure of competing toe to toe with the Beatles. He had the pressure to produce material that supported a large network of family and band mates. That pressure, along with mental illness, caused him to collapse during Smile and through the following decades. Later , when Brian did create music, it was often with the proverbial gun to his head. Dennis perhaps benefitted from not having that pressure. He could do as he pleased.  When it came time to do his solo tour, he backed off. Perhaps he feared that too much commercial success would draw him into that same pressure to produce.

And anyone who lists both "Cuddle Up" and "Wouldn't It Be Nice to Live Again" as great songs should remember that they're basically the same song... Sorta like Brian's  "Shortnin Bread"...

Yeah, that's true. Al Jardine was the first Beach Boy to grab my attention with his goofy looks lol

I get your irony but you're mistaken. No one caught my attention when I was 1st introduced to The BBs. That is, if we count the very 1st picture & then - the very 1st video of them (famous I Get Around clip). Folks state that Al is goofy only because he isn't tall. If he were - all kept silence about his looks, I'm sure. But I still respect your opinion & demand you respect mine - is that much asking?

Also, I'm fairly certain that people with logical minds will absolutely agree with the notion that "Good looks & charisma isn't the essential thing in music-performing". Only the music that matters. It's a well-known fact.

What Irony? I really did agree with you. With the first pictures of the BB's I saw when I was being introduced to the BB's, it wasn't Dennis or Mike or Brian or anyone like that who instantly caught my eye. It happened to be Al Jardine for me, he was/is the most recognisable member, and the first member to get my attention.
And Yes, at the end, only the Music matters, not looks or personal life or etc.

Mind you, she actually attended The T.A.M.I. show in the audience... but The Stones are the band that left her awestruck.


Impressive to have a Mom that is T.A.M.I. alumni...  ;D

But Jagger was too busy trying to fill James Brown's shoes (not possible) and their performance
suffered pretty badly due to that. I usually fall asleep during the RS watching the DVD.  :p

Hey, my mom was there too! She claims to
have smoked cigs out back with The Stones :)

And more than that...... >:D

Pinder, get DNA tested.

ha! Dennis' work is way more interesting than any of the bland artists you referenced!

I think it's helpful to compare Dennis to someone like Jim Morrison -- I think his songwriting and vocals are comparable, but much stronger overall. He just never focused on (or developed) the 'frontman' role. Comparing him to Brian just doesn't work. Brian is really singular. Dennis and Carl knew this and made it their lives' work to support him. When Dennis went off to do his own thing, it was a very humble enterprise. No way he was ever overrated in his lifetime, and I still think he is not properly appreciated today.

I'm calling Jerry Springer's people ASAP!

That's awesome :) And I second the request for you to get a DNA test ;)
Did your mom go to Santa Monica High School? My mom did, which is how she wound up attending The T.A.M.I. Show, since a concert promoter dropped by the campus, offering kids on campus free tickets to see live bands play a concert that same evening across the street, at the Santa Monica Civic Center (R.I.P.).

My mom actually hung out with another T.A.M.I. Show act, The Barbarians, and she has pics to prove it... but she doesn't recall if it was then when they were in town for The T.A.M.I. Show, or possibly at some other time around the similar time period. If only she'd been a BB fan...

Maybe another DNA test is justified

 ;D

I say you go on "Maury" instead.                      "In the case of Pinder, Mike Love you are the father!"

You really think Brian Wilson, and to a lesser extent Paul Simon are bland?

I didn't count Brian on that list, but the others ... yes indeed. Doesn't make 'em bad necessarily, but those artists exemplify the sort of timid, commercial rock of the '70s. Dennis' records had guts & balls, even the pretty stuff. Dennis was a much more honest performer and producer than those in your list there in my opinion. Totally unfiltered, and yeh, uncommercial. What Dennis and Brian have in common more than anything -- and more than any of the other Beach Boys -- is that they were both able to put feelings into music ways that no one else could.

But taste is taste. I would not consider the artists on your list 'true greats' of Dennis' era.

Dennis is blander than all the artists on that list. As several have mentioned, most of his melodies aren't very strong and his lyrics are usually cliched.  Even Forever is a pretty bland song.

Neil Young and Paul Simon may be Bob Dylan wannabes (especially Neil) but at least their lyrics went far beyond the Hallmark cliches of Dennis's songs, and Paul in particular wrote some of the catchiest songs of the 60s, like Feelin' Groovy.

Another flaw of Dennis's music is the complete lack of lyrical coherence of many of his songs. I really don't think the lyrics of To Live Again, for instance, were considered at all. It's just a laundry list of cliches.

I like Dennis's voice and I think it sounds powerful on To Live Again but the song as a whole doesn't go "to the next level" because its lack of lyrical substance. I don't mind that nearly all of his songs are romantic but I do mind that they almost never have "a point." They don't express anything beyond that he's in love with whatever girl he had a fling with at the time.

I'm not an expert on Dennis Wilson lyrics by any means, but "Carry Me Home" and "River Song" are neither romantic nor without a point.

I think there's a tendency to romanticize the lives and art of guys like Dennis and Jim Morrison - we all love the tale of guys who lived fast and hard, and died tragically young because of it. It lends itself to all kinds of "what if?" scenarios, like "what if Dennis had lived, what if he had cleaned up, and created more masterworks?" Carl's life, in comparison, seems rather dull. Yeah, he had a drug period, a divorce, the fight with the draft board, but much of his later years was consumed with taking care of his brothers, particularly Brian. So I think on this board, and among diehard Beach Boys fans, Dennis might be a bit overrated, but not among the general public who barely know the names of the band members, aside from Brian or Mike.

Paul Simon wrote rather more than 'catchy songs.'

Do we have to compare? It's always the same with music. Artist B pisses all over Artist B. Fans both erudite and ignorant indulge in it because it's easy and feeds their prejudices. Dennis remains considerably underrated by music fans in general and by some BB fans.

I find WIBNTLA's lyrics to be little more than the 'moon in June' variety. There's no wordplay in the lyrics to Dennis' songs, no story and ultimately as you mention no 'point'. It's the one thing he lacks as a great artist.

I agree completely with the above points but one has to remember, (in most cases) guys like Brian didn't write lyrics at all (or sometimes wrote "meaningless" lyrics) and are judged on the merit of their skills of composition, arranging, melody, etc.  What happens when Dennis's lyrics are removed from the equation.  Does the opinion change? 

For me personally, it doesn't.  I think Dennis wrote a handful of some really GREAT songs (as well as a bunch of good ones and a few clunkers) but I feel those are more the exception than the rule.  Your mileage may vary tho.

 I'm a Dennis fan, but you cannot be serious if you think his 70's output approaches what Neil Young did in the same decade.

You can't be serious. What of any note did Neil Young do in the 70's besides back up  CS&N ??

I am really amazed at how Dennis gets so much attention on this board and Carl gets so little. Carl was the backbone of the Beach Boys live show for many years. He had a great voice on record and in concert and his guitar work was always tasty and well suited for the material. He made two decent solo albums and by many accounts was the glue that kept everyone together at times. Dennis might show up for a gig or not. He might not be fit to play when he did. I am not saying that he wasn't a big part of the group and I love everything he did up through Sunflower. After that, with the exception of Baby Blue, there isn't much that does it for me. A lot of plodding overly sweetened ballads with lyrics that run the gammut of "I love you" to "I am really sorry that I treated you like garbage but I still love you." If Bruce Johnston had done the same songs, they would be dismissed after one playing.

Well, what the heck!  Start your "Carl was the Bomb" thread and see where it goes...

  Not much apparently. JOURNEY THROUGH THE PAST maybe? ;)

YEah, that's as agood an example as any; a bunch of tracks by CSN, Buffalo Springfield, a few neil young  by himself, a BBs. Mostly 60s. Makes Dennis appear a supernova!

After the Gold Rush, Harvest, On the Beach, Tonight's the Night, and Rust Never Sleeps.

 
Less than great, repetitive LPs. Nothing close in grandeur of scope to Dennis' output! 

Personal taste but I'd say Harvest whups POB.

lack of personal taste it is then!

Carl was reliable, dependable, professional - great qualities to have in a human being, but I guess it's seen as boring, where's the drama? Rock snobs love a tragedy - great talent marred by addiction, depression, etc.

 

In that case, it's up to those here that truly love him, to turn him into the tragic figure they can appreciate

My basic point is that those guys created standard, predictable '70s commercial rock for the most part. I understand there are opinions about which is better. My opinion is that the those artists adhered to the basic commercial styles and sounds of the day ... which was stripped-down, singer-songwriter stuff. Dennis went for a sort of unusual '70s wall of sound thing. Can you name any other '70s hit 'ballad' that gets into the territory of 'Thoughts of You'? I mean, like it or not, this was unusual, unique and ballsy material. There were plenty of great artists and great records in the '70s, I just happen to feel that they were not made by Paul Simon, Neil Young or Joni Mitchell. Dennis' material I think is comparable to maybe something like Starsailor by Tim Buckley in it's artistry and depth.  But with in Dennis' unique POP style ... a West-Coast Spector/Beach Boys sound, taken into the '70s.

Solid Air by John Martyn, a hit around my house.

Musically Dennis' material is surely not overrated. However his lyrics are to many ears overly saccharine and the lyrical content of many of his songs are about the same thing which takes away a little of the shine. Productionwise I consider POB/Bambu to be very strong with great taste in instrumentation, but imo Dennis 'bleeds' into the tape a little much.

'Tonight's the Night' adheres to the basic commercial styles and sounds of the day? 'Hejira'?

Judging aesthetic quality is tricky. Yeah, a lot of it is subjective. But still, the Beatles were better than Billy J Kramer and the Dakotas. The Beach Boys were better than Jan and Dean. Or is that just opinion too? No objective truth when judging artistic quality?

And if you strike Stevie Wonder, Neil Young, Paul Simon, and Joni Mitchell from the list of great songwriters, let's substitute some others from Dennis's 60's-70's era. Pete Townshend? Ray Davies? David Bowie? Lou Reed? Van Morrison? Or are they too "bland" as well? Because those -- and others even more prominent that I could name -- those are Dennis's contemporaries against whom Dennis is measured when Dennis is called "great" or a genius.

I would rank Dennis as a writer and performer alongside such as Randy California, Chris Hillman, or Dave Mason. Now, I love the songs of those guys -- California and Hillman especially -- just as I love Dennis's. And yes, some of their songs achieve greatness. But writing 3 or 4 great songs is not the standard for consensual greatness as a recording artist.

when in San Francisco, I frequent the very fine vinyl stores in the Haight.    while digging for Beach Boys Gold there a few years ago, a proprietor of one of the shops asked me in a sincere manner if  me if I though DW was really all that great in that he had frequent requests from people willing to pay high prices for POB (prior to the cd release).   I immediately understood his question.   Trouble was I didn't have a good answer.   At that time POB was legendary but generally unavailable.    I am still searching for an answer.........

I will say that I prefer Bambu in that it is more straight ahead in an R&B fashion and not so dramatic and over the top as POB.

The larger answer has to do with, I think, accessibility to the material of a legendary character and entertainer.  Was James Dean all that good?   Was Jim Morrison?  Jackson Pollack?  You get the idea.  Was the music good?   Was the art appealing?   Or is it the legend and personality ?

It's interesting that one episode of Carl's life that seems to get a lot of talk is his being drunk - or stoned - onstage in 1978. I guess that stands out because again, Carl had always been the dependable one. But damn that Carl, he cleaned up shortly after that tour, thus denying us the tragic ending that other, more erratic artists gave us.  ::)

I guess that I find Carl's death from cancer to be pretty tragic. I agree that the 1978 episode really stands out because it was a lapse in professionalism that was rare for him. Even though Carl did not have many songwriting credits, I believe that if one were to be a fly on the wall it would be evident that he was a shaper and editor and had a strong influence on the group's sound.

Carl's death was the ultimate tragedy in the history of the Beach Boys, one the group never recovered from.

Dennis's drowning was the ultimate tragedy. At least Carl's death from cancer was sort-of a natural death.
And the group never fully recovered after Dennis died

Springsteen had a wall-of-sound thing going with the E-Street Band.

Yup, Born to Run especially.

I feel Brian's lyrics were generally at least charming when he did write them himself. Whereas a Dennis Wilson song may go "I looooove youuuuuu", a Brian song may go "I love to pick you up, cause you're still a baby to me, cribs and cradles..." He employed metaphors and other literary devices in his songs. They generally have a story to tell, or a "point," if you will, even if it is just to tell his wife that she's his baby (I Wanna Pick You). That is much more creative than merely "I love you," and much more inspiring to hear.

But at least they soldiered on. After Carl died, the group was no more...unless you count the M&B show as continuing on.

If you like Dennis' music you think he's underrated. If you don't like his music you think he's overrated. Do these terms mean anything other than stating that you disagree with a certain opinion?

And when someone says that Dennis is overrated, obviously they mean amongst this demographic here, Beach Boys die hards, not the Rolling Stone History of Rock crowd. Dennis Wilson is sacred cow around here. So if you see little merit in his music then he's going to seem overrated. 

I personally don't get the DW appeal and don't know if i ever will. Frankly, i don't care to. I find nothing exciting, challenging or moving in his music, save for a few pre-'74 songs. And it makes perfect sense to me that people who can't get into the Beach Boys for whatever reasons would take an interest in Dennis' '70s material. 

hey my fellow beach boys fans.  I've now been a beach boys fan for 2 years and  I'm so glad I can finally join this board, especially now so I can express my love for the Wilson brothers.  first off, happy birthday to our beloved Carl and second I love Denny and Mr. Stebbins didn't lie when he said that in the early days, he was the one attracting all the fans; it's 50 years later and it's still working because he attracted me :lol.  with all do respect to the posters here, I personally thought this was a bad time to bring this opinion up because we're getting close to the 30th anniversary of his death  :-[  but here I am bringing it up again, but I had to get my two cents in in honor of Denny and his fans.  I personally wish I can go back and time, telling the three Wilson brothers to form their own group and see which one comes out on top.  they were all geniuses in their own rights.   :)