Death Of The Beach Boys

[Sheriff John Stone]

A good old Dennis discussion....

Without stating the obvious, Dennis Wison is easily the best songwriting Beach Boy after Brian, creating some of the most underrated songs in the history of rock and roll. Pacific Ocean Blue is also the best solo album by any Beach Boy, and probably always will be. I love Dennis's work and miss him very much.  However...

I think Dennis's contributions from 1961 to 1967 are overrated (as I dodge the machine gun fire). If Dennis was that important to Brian in the beginning, why, according to several accounts, did Audrey MAKE the guys (including Brian) LET Dennis in the group? Why wouldn't Brian INSIST on having him in the band? Yes, Dennis brought that "attitude" to the group, but didn't David Marks and Mike Love possess a lot of the same qualities?
It's interesting that Dennis never wrote any lyrics to express that attitude.

The first thing Brian did when he became the producer and called the shots was REPLACE Dennis on drums in the studio. I've also read that Dennis rarely attended the sessions of some of their biggest hits performed by some of the world's greatest musicians, because he was out "doing other things". Is there any truth to that? If there is, how important was Dennis to Brian in the studio?

Yes, Dennis had his share of leads in the early days, and you can hear him in the harmony mix. But that doesn't necessarily mean it/he was good. I don't think Dennis's early vocals were very impressive. With the possible exception of "Do You Wanna Dance", I can't think of any early Dennis leads that I think, "Wow, that was great!". I always thought that Brian was throwing Dennis a bone because Mike or Al could've just as easily sang those leads. And on some of the harmonies, when I hear Dennis, he actually sounds a little flat. I do, however, think Dennis came into his own in the late 60's and early 70's; I enjoyed his later vocals very much.

I often wonder when Dennis's "attitude" because less of an asset and more of a liability. Yes, I'm sure the guys loved him, but maybe not so much on stage. I'm thinking specifically post-1975. Mike, Carl, Al, and Bruce remind me as being very professional performers. But Dennis must've driven them nuts! It had to come to the point of diminishing returns. For us fans, Dennis might've been fun to watch, but for the guys in the band, I think it must've been frustrating at times. Of course everybody misses Dennis and has kind things to say about him - deservedly so - but I again wonder what exactly Dennis was bringing to the table in the later years.

The sad thing is that Dennis will never get the credit he deserves. Hell, you can't even buy his album. I play his music for almost every music fan I come in contact with. They're usually impressed. I never get tired of it.

[thomasogg]

Re: if Dave Marks had stayed. Yeh, I agree maybe the groups arty direction woulda benefitted. he seemed to be more rebellious than say Al or Bruce and shared all the same lifestyle traits, good and bad, of the Wilsons, so hopefully he'd have been more inclined to side with them in any group disputes as opposed to Mike.

[Aegir]

Watch out Sheriff, Jon Stebbins is going to rip you apart.

[thomasogg]

Watch out Sheriff, Jon Stebbins is going to rip you apart.

What? For paying David Marks a compliment? That'd be rather stupid.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Watch out Sheriff, Jon Stebbins is going to rip you apart.

What's taking him so long? Is he using reverse psychology against me? Of course I did enter the witness protection program...

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Re: if Dave Marks had stayed. Yeh, I agree maybe the groups arty direction woulda benefitted. he seemed to be more rebellious than say Al or Bruce and shared all the same lifestyle traits, good and bad, of the Wilsons, so hopefully he'd have been more inclined to side with them in any group disputes as opposed to Mike.

I agree with you 100%

[Sheriff John Stone]

Re: if Dave Marks had stayed. Yeh, I agree maybe the groups arty direction woulda benefitted. he seemed to be more rebellious than say Al or Bruce and shared all the same lifestyle traits, good and bad, of the Wilsons, so hopefully he'd have been more inclined to side with them in any group disputes as opposed to Mike.

I agree with you 100%

And who is the Beach Boy who most kept in touch with David Marks over the years and has invited him to re-join the band a few times?

[thomasogg]

Oh yes, didnt he ask him to rejoin when Carl was too ill to perform? Tasteful. Anyway, in what way does that alter the fact that David was rebellious, which he was, and a big drug user and drinker, also true?

[Sheriff John Stone]

Oh yes, didnt he ask him to rejoin when Carl was too ill to perform? Tasteful. Anyway, in what way does that alter the fact that David was rebellious, which he was, and a big drug user and drinker, also true?

Mike Love asked David Marks to rejoin the band before and after Carl became ill.

My point wasn't addressing David's character traits, just your assertion that Marks would "side" with the Wilsons rather than Mike Love. I doubt that Mike Love would invite anyone to join the band that would oppose him.

[thomasogg]

What? So Mike wouldn't ask David Marks to join the band in the eighties because had David been in the band in 1967 he hypothetically might have disagreed with him...? I think perhaps you're missing my point...

I just think that by his nature, or at least his nature as it was in the sixties, David - who presumably would still have indulged in the booze/drugs lifestyle had he remained in the band - probably would've been more open to experimentation than the conservative likes of Al and Bruce. This is, of course, just opinion, but I personally think it would've been the case... Mike very strongly disapproved of Brian, Carl and dennis' drug use - presumably he wouldn't have made an exception with Marks just coz he wasn't a Wilson?

Of course it is true that Mike kept in touch with David, but then it's a lot easier to deal with someone who drinks and takes LSD when you're not having to tour and record albums with 'em..

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Maybe he would've been able to have been the peacemaker between the two factions.

[Jon Stebbins]

A good old Dennis discussion....

Without stating the obvious, Dennis Wison is easily the best songwriting Beach Boy after Brian, creating some of the most underrated songs in the history of rock and roll. Pacific Ocean Blue is also the best solo album by any Beach Boy, and probably always will be. I love Dennis's work and miss him very much.  However...

I think Dennis's contributions from 1961 to 1967 are overrated (as I dodge the machine gun fire). If Dennis was that important to Brian in the beginning, why, according to several accounts, did Audrey MAKE the guys (including Brian) LET Dennis in the group? Why wouldn't Brian INSIST on having him in the band? Yes, Dennis brought that "attitude" to the group, but didn't David Marks and Mike Love possess a lot of the same qualities?
It's interesting that Dennis never wrote any lyrics to express that attitude.

The first thing Brian did when he became the producer and called the shots was REPLACE Dennis on drums in the studio. I've also read that Dennis rarely attended the sessions of some of their biggest hits performed by some of the world's greatest musicians, because he was out "doing other things". Is there any truth to that? If there is, how important was Dennis to Brian in the studio?

Yes, Dennis had his share of leads in the early days, and you can hear him in the harmony mix. But that doesn't necessarily mean it/he was good. I don't think Dennis's early vocals were very impressive. With the possible exception of "Do You Wanna Dance", I can't think of any early Dennis leads that I think, "Wow, that was great!". I always thought that Brian was throwing Dennis a bone because Mike or Al could've just as easily sang those leads. And on some of the harmonies, when I hear Dennis, he actually sounds a little flat. I do, however, think Dennis came into his own in the late 60's and early 70's; I enjoyed his later vocals very much.

I often wonder when Dennis's "attitude" because less of an asset and more of a liability. Yes, I'm sure the guys loved him, but maybe not so much on stage. I'm thinking specifically post-1975. Mike, Carl, Al, and Bruce remind me as being very professional performers. But Dennis must've driven them nuts! It had to come to the point of diminishing returns. For us fans, Dennis might've been fun to watch, but for the guys in the band, I think it must've been frustrating at times. Of course everybody misses Dennis and has kind things to say about him - deservedly so - but I again wonder what exactly Dennis was bringing to the table in the later years.

The sad thing is that Dennis will never get the credit he deserves. Hell, you can't even buy his album. I play his music for almost every music fan I come in contact with. They're usually impressed. I never get tired of it.

There are some good points(especially the last one) and a whole lotta wrong in that post. If you are missing the greatness of Dennis' voice in early songs like Surfer Girl, In My Room, I Get Around, Don't Worry Baby, Hushabye, Girls On The Beach, All Summer Long, When I Grow Up and countless more where his voice truly stands out and is GREAT then I can't help you. Personally I think he's a highly underrated part of the blend, his texture added so much of what makes you get chills, Brian knew that. yes his pitch isn't nearly perfect, but he was soulful and added something intangible. There are a lot of people who have a hard time even noticing Dennis' voice in there, and others who absolutely know it was just as essential as Carl's and Brian's in giving the blend its uniqueness. The stuff without Dennis like Cal. Girls and God Only knows sounds more saccharine to me, still great...but it loses some balls. I think Don't Worry Baby is the real gauge of the drama Dennis' voice adds, he is the power in that song.

Brian's "replacing" of Dennis as a drummer has been way overstated by the Leaf's of the world. When an actual researcher of top caliber like a Craig Slowinski breaks it down we find that Dennis was very, very often the drummer on BB's sessions until Pet Sounds(yes even on many of the hits, so he must have been in the studio fairly regularly). The anecdotal stories by Hal(he's told them to me too) have also been over emphasized by Stebbins(who?) and others, the ones about how Dennis wasn't around cause he was racing or surfing. Its a romantic vision. The sea of tunes seems to show him there an awful lot of the time, working his butt off on the tracks. But its hard to deflate a myth that's been pounding into us for so damn long. Its late... and I do appreciate the nice thoughts about Dennis.

[mikeyj]

There are some good points(especially the last one) and a whole lotta wrong in that post. If you are missing the greatness of Dennis' voice in early songs like Surfer Girl, In My Room, I Get Around, Don't Worry Baby, Hushabye, Girls On The Beach, All Summer Long, When I Grow Up and countless more where his voice truly stands out and is GREAT then I can't help you. Personally I think he's a highly underrated part of the blend, his texture added so much of what makes you get chills, Brian knew that. yes his pitch isn't nearly perfect, but he was soulful and added something intangible. There are a lot of people who have a hard time even noticing Dennis' voice in there, and others who absolutely know it was just as essential as Carl's and Brian's in giving the blend its uniqueness. The stuff without Dennis like Cal. Girls and God Only knows sounds more saccharine to me, still great...but it loses some balls. I think Don't Worry Baby is the real gauge of the drama Dennis' voice adds, he is the power in that song.

Brian's "replacing" of Dennis as a drummer has been way overstated by the Leaf's of the world. When an actual researcher of top caliber like a Craig Slowinski breaks it down we find that Dennis was very, very often the drummer on BB's sessions until Pet Sounds(yes even on many of the hits, so he must have been in the studio fairly regularly). The anecdotal stories by Hal(he's told them to me too) have also been over emphasized by Stebbins(who?) and others, the ones about how Dennis wasn't around cause he was racing or surfing. Its a romantic vision. The sea of tunes seems to show him there an awful lot of the time, working his butt off on the tracks. But its hard to deflate a myth that's been pounding into us for so damn long. Its late... and I do appreciate the nice thoughts about Dennis.

I agree Mr. Stebbins. Like Mr. Boyd said in another thread, Dennis's voice adds heaps to Ballad of Ole' Betsy too (which as I mentioned I really love those vocals by the group - always an emotional one for me - and Dennis is PART of the reason why).. and I agree he adds heaps to a song like Surfer Girl (just listen to the Endless Harmony track). And I've never really thought about what you said in regards to GOK and Cal. Girls but I couldn't agree more, Dennis's voice gives it that extra edge. I'm with you, Dennis's voice in the harmony blend is highly-underrated.

And If I'm not mistaken didn't he drum on Do It Again (A #1 Hit in the UK) as well as other singles like When I Grow Up? I'm sure there is more but that's all I can think of off the top of my head after the first two or so albums

By the way, when you said In My Room, it made me think that Dennis isn't on that, don't you remember that Summer Dreams movie (A highly reliable and essential historical document of the band)? Dennis was in the recording booth And then he states "It's a make-out song".. man I hate that movie but it makes me laugh so hard...

[Dancing Bear]

I just think that by his nature, or at least his nature as it was in the sixties, David - who presumably would still have indulged in the booze/drugs lifestyle had he remained in the band - probably would've been more open to experimentation than the conservative likes of Al and Bruce.

<EDIT> I just realized that thomasogg is no longer a member of the community, so... why bother?</EDIT>

About David, I meant that being in the Beach Boys in the sixties gave you certain professional priorities, with such a heavy touring schedule and the availability for studio recording whenever possible. David had the chance to jump off, take his time and evolve as a musician.

[the captain]

The anecdotal stories by Hal(he's told them to me too) have also been over emphasized by Stebbins(who?) and others...

That cracked me up, Mr. Stebbins.

The only thing I want to add to the recent parts of this discussion relate to Dennis's voice in the blend, early or otherwise. I think that is true, and that in my opinion he could be a better "blend" singer than lead singer. To me, sometimes there is something about less pure voices that really can lend depth to a harmony. I wouldn't want to hear five of them, but to put it in there between Mike's pseudo-bass and the others' tenors, and it really does make a cool texture.

[Pretty Funky]

Jon Stebbins wrote...
Basically all you are saying is that you prefer the live sound, minus the textured vocal from Dennis that is prominent on the hit versions of the songs you use as example...on the live versions Al slides into Dennis' vocal spot for the most part. On the studio versions of When I Grow Up and LDC Dennis' voice is more prominent than Al....

Guess so Jon. Part of the reason I like to hear various bands 'stripped' shall we say is that live and unassisted sound they had to rely on to get noticed in the first place. The Beatles in the Cavern Club and later Hamburg would be a pretty good example. Sure, the line-up in the early shows was not what it was when they became huge but that raw sound is incredible.

The voice blend of the Beach Boys changed along with the music and that is no-less interesting to hear as the band progressed. Songs like 'Friends' and 'Water' have great back-ground vocals I guess in part because of the maturing and weariness of the voices. Can I call this the Beach Boy Sound Part 2 ? Recorded preferred over the live sound. (although the live 'Water' on the Endless Harmony Doco is nice)

BTW. No offence meant over Dennis. As a fan of the whole band for almost 30 years, I would never intend to undermine his contribution.