The Smiley Smile Message Board

After the breakup John Fogerty appeared two times with the other members on stage (one time it was only Doug Clifford and Fogerty, see this -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WySaetpQOQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WySaetpQOQ)). Tom Fogerty's '74 solo album had the track "Joyful resurrection" on it which featured all members of the group, although John might've overdubbed his parts later without Clifford and Cook.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFyyxMOdecE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFyyxMOdecE)
When they were inducted into the Hall Of Fame, John refused to play with Doug Clifford and Stu Cook at the concert. So the induction probably was the last time you saw the three surviving members of CCR on stage together.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3C3e5WEvAU&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3C3e5WEvAU&feature=related)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zymOIGzYZZw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zymOIGzYZZw)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWFXsY0IjxY&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWFXsY0IjxY&feature=related)

I believe it was at a wedding..honest. :-D

The last time they performed together was at Tom's wedding.

Actually it was at a high school reunion in 1988. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WySaetpQOQ

I posted that link above. This is only John and Doug.

The last time they played together was at Tom's wedding, right. But after that the three of them had their last appearance together - as of yet - at the Hall of fame induction. I don't think they even met after that.

Wish these guys could've put their differences aside just once for a proper show or tour. John is quite good on his own, but there was something special about the combination of John, Tom, Stu and Doug. Tom's role in the group is often belittled, but he was a great rhythm guitarist - something which is underappreciated these days. Could've sung some songs, too, if John had let him. Back in the Blue Velvets days, he was the lead singer.

I can't stand seeing Fogerty playing with jerkoffs like Kenny Arnoff and a bunch of other faceless, overplaying merdaholes. He can say whatever he wants about Stu and Doug but they were one of those rare rhythm sections who could both swing/tear it up AND underplay at the same time. And if wasn't just Fogerty's songs that made the band kick. Toss on Doug Sahm's "Groover's Paradise" album (Cosmo produced and he and Stu are the rhythm section) for proof! There is some serious magic in those guy's playing and Sahm seems to be having the time of his life.

And the Mardi Gras album ain't half bad either! If John had played on them/sung on Doug/Stu's songs, some would be CCR classics/standards!

I think Mardi Gras got bad reviews because it was so different from what people expected. I mean, a Creedence album where John only wrote 3 songs, sang just 4? I can understand why fans at the time felt ripped off. That said, Doug had a pretty decent voice, and both he and Stu wrote some good tunes for the album. Were they as good as John's best stuff? Probably not, but they certainly weren't horrible. Too bad the democracy thing didn't happen while Tom was still in the band. There's a couple of Tom's songs I would rate with the best of CCR, Joyful Resurrection and Goodbye Media Man.

To describe Kenny Aronoff (btw, that's how his name is spelled) as a jerkoff just shows a total lack of knowledge. He's one of the best drummer in the business today.






C'mon, let's be realistic. The songs by Doug and Stu on Mardi Gras are average at best. I like the sound of the album but on the whole Fogerty's songs are just a completely different dimension. Nothing angainst the two of them, 'cause I like their playing a lot, but it just couldn't go right if they all of sudden tried to be songwriters and singers.

I think it's just almost irresistable for someone like John Fogerty to eventually... eventually... start thinking "Why in the hell am I paying these guys so much when I could hire other guys, and the songs would sound virtually the same".

Of course they were all great, but the general public, in general, doesn't care who anybody is outside of the 1. lead singer 2. lead guitarist 3. songwriter... of whom John was pretty much all 3. 

So he probably either decided himself, or had a wife/girlfriend/manager etc. whisper in his ear that he could make a ton more money without them. 

Call it the Diana Ross syndrome if you will. 

Doug and Stu were one of the best rhythm sections in the biz. John was the star but the guys behind him made the songs cook.

Aronoff as a jerkoff? Well, that's just my opinion of the guy. Yeah, I know he's skilled and all that but I've always felt he overplays and falls back on the same boring fill (that I'll decline to chart out here) over and over again. Once again. just my opinion. I do know how respected he is. I just don't think he fits with Fogerty at all and distracts from the songs in a bad way.

And it's not that Doug and Stu just tried to be songwriters overnight. Fogerty put 'em up to it. They were asking for more say business-wise etc and to be able to sing harmonies on the records. To say their songs are average at best is just your opinion. Of course they aren't as good as Fogerty's stuff, but I think it's silly to suggest they couldn't have been approved upon with John's active participation, therefore it's a sad missed opportunity in my opinion. But overall, Mardi Gras is a decent enough debut by Doug & Stu as a writing/playing unit. The cheap and easy Fogerty comparison is simply unfortunate.

Doug, Stu, and Tom were also and exciting rhythm section to watch as well. Check out any old  live CCR footage and the energy is just crackling in a way that I've rarely seen.

The only conceivable reason a fan would want John Fogerty to get back with the rhythm section of his old band is so they wouldn't have to hear Center Field when they go to a concert.

Maybe also because IT WOULD BE CREEDENCE!!!!!!!!

I think Fogerty needs to GROW UP and put his differences with Doug and Stu aside. Even if they don't ever play together again, the least JF can do is drop his 40 year old grudge.

Nope, just mere fact ! Listen to something like "Tearin' up the country", that's high school level.




If you are in a band like CCR and be on top at that time, you better make sure that your product is at least somehwat as good as your previous stuff. That's your obligation. And if you're not able to do that, then let Fogerty go on as before. It's kinda like 'Hey Brian, let's forget about "Still I dream of it", I wrote a song called "Kona cost".' And with CCR at that moment, success showed that it wasn't the worst way to rely on Fogerty.
Again, that's nothing against Cook and Clifford as musicians. I respect them very much, because they had a great sound together, but the point is something else entirely.

If they wanted to have more say in business decisions - which I can totally understand - it should be clear to them that they can't expect John letting them decide about what his songs, his arrangements and his productions should sound like. So it's just a logical thought that they would have to write some songs on their own. It's another thing if Fogerty shouldn't have refused to play lead guitar on their songs. I think he should've done that in a matter of collegiality. It's business, man. CCR wasn't a high school band anymore. They were on top and had to make sure they stay there.
All in all: if they wanted to have more say, which of course isn't wrong, they needed something to table but at this point they hadn't. They should have just waited until their hands weren't empty.  

I'm sorry, but your feelings on Doug and Stu's Mardi Gras songs ARE your opinion. There's no way around it. It's a fact! it's your opinion and you are entitled to your opinion and I respect your opinion. Please refrain from suggesting your opinion is a fact because it is not.

My OPINION on the songs in question is: once you remove the Fogerty comparison, they aren't bad at all! Tearing Up The Country is a stomper of a song. Even Fogerty has said that if is was someone like Howlin Wolf who wrote it he'd love it.

And please keep in mind: the Mardi Gras story goes both ways: Doug and Stu claim Fogerty forced them into it or they'd have no album (which probably would have been the best choice) while Fogerty claims they wanted all the credit and glory. But whatever, history is what it is and there is no law that says I can't like the material on that album.


BTW, I think Still I Dream Of It is a horrid song while Kona Coast is at least catchy and has a good beat, so it's different strokes for different folks. Please learn to live with it.

No, it's not my opinion. I listen to "Door to door" in a while, as well as "Tearin' up the country" or "Sail away". But music isn't all taste, it's quality. And these songs are not quality material. Easy.
Don't interchange opinion with fact. I really like to listen to "Summer in paradise" and like many parts of it but that won't make that a good album. It's material just isn't quality stuff. And same goes for the songs by Doug and Stu. The songs don't have any substance. That doesn't mean you can't like them (I would never tell anybody what to like and what not to like). But there's a difference between that and a musical point of view. 'nuff said

"Nuff said"???

Are you insane?

You mean to tell me YOU are the God in the sky who knows what constitutes quality to the point where your opinion is fact?

WTF?

Lock the door, sun's a fallin'.
Poke the fire, don't let the cold in.
Gonna try to sail away from the rest of my life.

Found a boat to make the break in.
Filled with hope 'bout the step I'm takin'.
Gonna try to sail away from the rest of my life.

Spent a long time list'ning to the captain of the sea,
Shoutin' orders to his crew; No one hears but me.

Cast away, tide's a runnin'
Hoist the sail, strong wind's comin'.
Gonna try to sail away from the rest of my life.

Spent a long time list'ning to the captain of the sea,
Shoutin' orders to his crew; No one hears but me.

Lock the door, sun's a fallin'.
Poke the fire, don't let the cold in.
Gonna try to sail away from the rest of my life.
Gonna try to sail away from the rest of my life


So, you can tell me that, beyond any reasonable doubt, the above lyrics are completely lacking in any sort of quality whatsoever?

If VDP had written those lyrics you'd consider them genius (my opinion)

I don't disagree... however; the people he's going to make money off of don't care one way or the other.  I'm not saying it's right... I'm just saying lots of people do the same thing.  The money got to him, he probably had the seed planted by a wife/girlfriend/manager or something. 

If he didn't with his brother... he likely won't with these guys.

Why even talk about lyrics? They're by far the least important part of a song. Fogerty had some pretty bad lyrics himself.

"Jody's gonna get reliiiiiiiiiiiiigiooooooon alllllllllll niiiiiiiiiiiiiiight looooooooooooooong"

It's not surprising that a drummer and bassist who didn't write much don't write songs with the same qualities as the guy who wrote all the songs.

But it's all like. Opinions, man.  :p

Well, the lyrics are part of the song though. I just posted those lyrics because I like them and they go good with the melody and the playing on the track is good, so it all works for me.... I would consider this an example of quality or craftsmanship,  or whatever the hell word works. All those words are basically expressing an opinion anyhow.

I think we get too carried away as rock fans about who wrote what and credits etc.... The genius of the composition is not exactly why we love a song or an album or a band. There are many many factors.

I happen to think most of the songs on Pendulum aren't that great, or are lacking, or weren't up to JF's usual standards. However the band play like motherFers and they are so tight and there's a ferocity to the playing  (and JF's singing) on that album that just elevated the material well beyond whatever it was when Fogerty sat down and plucked out the chords and wrote the lyrics.

I just have a problem when someone tells me my opinion is dead wrong because they know the difference between something that is quality and something that is crap but sounds good (NOT a direct quote) .... I mean, HUH?????

You wouldn't happen to frequent another board as midnightx or Doc, would you?

Obviously you didn't understand anything that I said. Otherwise you would get the difference between opinion and fact that I tried to make clear for you in my posting above. I don't constitue nothing. I'm just looking at it from a musical point of view. I don't have a problem mentioning that Fogerty wrote his share of bs too.




I'm not much of a fan of VDP's lyrics. Not all that glitters is gold.
But maybe you can tell me what's so great with these lyrics. I'm saying they're average. Everyone could write that stuff. Nothing special, quite halting, but that's all.






I don't care for both of them.

You guys have to understand that music - and therefor the difference between good, bad, average, wahtsoever - isn't about taste. As I mentioned above, I like music that's incredible terrible with no substance or great quality. Yet I never would be as arrogant to say it is good or even great only because it's very appealing to me and my personal taste.
If you can't analyse, then don't try it. For this whole discussion I never said that my opinion is fact or better than anyone else's. In fact, THAT comes from the other side.

Has anyone heard any of The Golliwogs stuff? Some of the stuff Tom sang and wrote or co-wrote with John was actually very good. There was easily enough room in the band for another songwriter. John should have taken a leaf out of another pair of famous rock siblings from the same era, The Davies bros of The Kinks. Ray wrote the vast bulk of the album tracks but often gave Dave the b - sides of singles to express himself creatively. A little compromise could have saved a great band from falling apart.

I like "Call it pretending" very much. Also "Walk on water" which was co-written by John and Tom. Don't remember though if it was Golliwogs or already CCR.

Please don't think I was giving the Doug/Stu Mardi Gras material amazingly high praise. All I said was that for two guys who were suddenly thrust into the responsibility of writing/producing/singing/playing enough material for 90% of an album MINUS their lead guitarist/singer/arranger's participation: it wasn't all that bad and had some good points..... That's it!

Rock n Roll is about whatever the hell you want it to be and about whatever the hell you wanna like no matter what "authority" on terms of quality will tell you. And even then, most people's idea of what quality is depends on their personal taste anyway, so I don't see how you can make and preach such a false distinction with a straight face. I mean, what constitutes quality in your book? I'm curious. Should I think Winds Of Change is a better song than Tomorrow Never Knows because TNK is one chord while Winds Of Change is more complex and with more universal lyrics? Or that Kokomo must be better than Beat On The Brat for the same reasons?

I'm just trying to understand.

Exactly! No one is suggesting that Tom was as good a singer or writer as John, but there again, John wrote the occasional dud, too. If Tom had been given some room to contribute the occasional song, the group might've lasted longer - which is what we all wish for, right? The guys had an amazing chemistry together that has never been replicated, not by John and his band of hired hands, not bu Stu/Doug and their Fogerty-soundalike.

Not to mention, some of the covers they chose to put on their albums: those spots could've gone to a Tom song.

And I'm sure Creedence Clearwater Revisited didn't do Doug and Stu any favors in John's book.

It's just plain sad. The chemistry we talk about: that sort of thing seems to be more appreciated by those outside of bands than in.

It was done as The Golliwogs then recorded again for the first CCR album. I think The Golliwogs version is the better of the two. Also did you know that Tom sings the second verse of Suzie Q?

(channeling Dana Carvey as Carson) I did not know that! That is wierd, wild stuff! Seriously, will have to listen to that again. John was/is a great talent, but ungenerous to his bandmates. If not for Tom's lead in the beginning, there may never have been a CCR.

All I said is that their songs on Mardi Gras are average at best. Nothing else.


For the other point, let me try it this way. I don't know if my english is good enough to express it in another way or if I'd know any other way to describe it.
Take a children's drawing of a house. Just like a kid would paint (or I for that matter, because I can't draw for all the money in the world). Then you have a painting by a real artist, also a house. Nothing else. Even if you like the children's drawing much better because it's so cute, you have to agree that the style, the techniques and probably the composition of the artist's picture is better in every way. And that doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be more complex. Same with music. The way a song is built, put together, composed maybe even arranged (although that has more to do with the recording, just like the singing and playing) isn't about taste but follows certain rules of composition. Thanks to rules, art becomes art that you can stretch but not break. Many people don't understand that Rock'n'Roll has it's rules as well, because the basis of all is a song composition. Unfortunately in later years Rock'n'Roll became filled with more rules and small-mindedness than probably every other form of poular music, just because certain forms were considered un-cool and not hip. But that's another story.
I hope this explains what I mean








Didn't know that. That's neat. Did he sing it on stage in the early days as well ?

As much as I love John's songs I must say he is a total butthole.

Been reading this thread and you guys are hilarious.  Really.  I wonder if you've actually read some of these things or are just making them up.

No, they came from the Cabinessence/Shut Down Board where you come from, Lonely Summer.  You know, the all but dead board.

How did that board die anyway? When I left there around 2003 it was still really vibrant.

'Cause after you left, R&R, Bungalow Bill didn't have anybody left to argue Conservative politics with!

 :lol

Had no idea I was such a load bearing figure over there...

Channeling
Dr. John Carpenter....

John has been talking up a possible reunion in interviews over the past year or so.  Stu and Doug have gone on record with a hearty "whatevs".

We'll see what Stu has to say if his phone DOES ring ;)

Stu and Doug would be fools to pass up playing with John instead of the tribute act they currently tour with. But I seriously doubt John will ever reunite with them. If Tom were still alive, maybe, just maybe...but without him, it's just gonna remind him of the most unpleasant time in CCR history - the end.

It's Rocker - not RocknRoll. Just to make sure no one that isn't involved in this discussion gets so without wanting to


See, the rules thing is another topic, but in short and not to start another discussion, I think that art without rues is just disposal. You can stretch rules and in cases even try to blast them but in the end they are always there.  

My apologies to RocknRoll!

Rocker, I respect your feelings on this subject, but I have to ask: so, what are the rules exactly and who makes them? Is the rule for a piece of art (or the need for a rule) due to the fact that it will eventually go into a frame of some sort, as in, a wooden or metal frame, or on a 12 inch vinyl disc or reel of film? If so, then aren't these said rules the concern of the curator, the critic, the reviewer, the movie studios, rather than solely that of the artist?

It makes sense that you might consider art without rules as disposal, but I can't see that applying to the artist. Anything that will hamper creativity or the imagination should not be forced upon the creating person(s). It is always a battle of course with format, technology, ease of use, etc, but if you choose to filter art that you take in through a series of rules, that is your choice.

This argument somehow applying to The Mardi Gras album is silly anyway because Doug and Stu's songs certainly conform to the rules you speak of, perhaps even too much so. The songs have a verse, chorus, brige, verse, chorus and vocal melodies that offer counter-play to the basic chords at time or simply complement them. You might not like these songs, but to argue that they are invalid as songs due to these hard-set rules of art, rock n roll, whatever, is quite baseless as they are completely by-the-rules.

It's a silly conceit anyway because rules are meant to be broken ESPECIALLY in what we call rock n roll.

Miles Davis (who I consider as rock n roll as anyone else) broke every rule in the book, alienating/frustrating fans and critics by the boatload, but now his manner of breaking the rules has become a bunch of new rules that people are studying and talking about and fretting over...... So, I maintain, rules are not the concern of the artist.

Very nicely stated, Erik. I've heard endlessly about these "rules" on another message board. We don't need more rules...and rules are made to be broken, anyway.

All I said about the songs of Doug and Stu on Mardi Gras was that they are average and that that is a fact. Nothing else. When you said that it's not right to say it is a fact and that it's my opinion is when we got to rules.

Fogerty's greatness goes without saying.  Cook and Clifford (and Tom?) were a tremendous rhythm section. Swung and kicked the damn door down.  Check out this deep track from the Don Harrison band, for whom they briefly toiled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6hhtSZzEAs&feature=related

.C. Fogerty is a national treasure. The Swamp Rocker from El Cerrito. His concerts are outstanding. And he brings along top shelf musicians on the road with him. And yes, Kenny Aronoff is definitely one of them!! Creedence had the tightest rhythm section in Rock & Roll. Period.

There use to be an excellent web site with all of Fogerty's guitars and amps and other stuff. Pictures taken by a huge fan/collector of EVERYTHING that Fogerty uses/used in the studio and on the road. I don't see it now. This one's second best:

http://www.backonstage.halmstad.net/tk/fogag.htm

The baseball bat guitar that he used for "Centerfield" was given to the baseball hall of fame in Cooperstown.

Last I heard, Fogerty lives up near Brian Wilson, or near the last house he lived in.

I strongly recommend watching this DVD, recorded at the Wiltern in '05. I've watched it 47 times (I counted) already. A few songs in, a spotlight shines on the crowd and there's a guy wearing a "Brian Wilson Presents Smile" shirt. A lighlight is watching Billy Burnette playing guitar with John. The bass player is the spittin' image of Stu Cook!

http://www.amazon.com/Long-Road-Home-Concert-Dig/dp/B000IFQLBE

Does "The Old Man Down the Road" sound like "Run Through The Jungle"?   Naaaaaaaaaaah.    Zanz Kant Danz.

So, John, it's coming down to that ?  ::)

http://vanguardrecords.tumblr.com/post/20416127315/press-release-legendary-john-fogerty-to-release-new (http://vanguardrecords.tumblr.com/post/20416127315/press-release-legendary-john-fogerty-to-release-new)

I enjoyed Revival and The Blue Ridge Rangers Rides Again, but this release I have no interest in at all. Reminds me of Ray Davies' last two cd's. Difference there, though, is that Ray was a very prolific writer for several decades. Other than his years with CCR, Fogerty has gone years between albums of new material. Oh well.

So, this short documentary comes from 2015 and is about the CCR member's current relationship and of course includes the question about a possible reunion. There's a nice surprise at the end of the dosumentary sort of re-unite in "sound". Watch here:

https://au.tv.yahoo.com/plus7/sunday-night/features/a/29706004/the-true-and-sad-story-of-creedence-clearwater-revival/

After reading John's book, I'd think the chance of a reunion are pretty slim. 

The docu from above was filmed after the book came out. But of course that doesn't mean very much.
I guess a reunion would happen if Fogerty wants it. There's so much money in it that it would be hard for Stu and Cosmo to say no; that is of course if Clifford's health will improve - get well!

I haven't read the book. Can you recommend it?

Well, as one of the guys says in that clip, "if it was gonna happen, it would have happened by now".

Yeah, its a good book.  A little surprising as I though John had mellowed a bit and let go of some of his bitterness over the end of CCR, Saul Zauntz, etc

The only mellowing I see is towards his brother Tom. He does find some nice things to say about him - what a great rhythm guitarist he was, singer with a sweet voice like Richie Valens. He still can't find anything to say about Doug or Stu. Watching that video, though, I was struck at how weird John is starting to look - the hair dyed, the face looking slightly plastic. Doug and Stu both look their age - and that's a compliment. They look healthy - despite Cosmo battling the big C. Hope he is well.

I agree. All in all it looks like John's career tends more and more to the conservative/Nashville-establishment wing; and the clean cut look just adds to that assumption imo.
Anyway, this was just linked on facebook:



John Fogerty Signs With BMG For New Album, Solo Reissues: Exclusive

http://www.billboard.com/articles/news/7966018/john-fogerty-bmg-new-album-solo-reissue



I'd be interested if his 70s solo singles will be available at one point.

Other than some possible work to his face, and shorter hair, I don't think John has changed his look up too much in the last five decades. 

I just came across this interview with John. Brian gets also praised in it:

http://www.rockcellarmagazine.com/2015/11/06/john-fogerty-fortunate-son-interview-memoir-creedence-clearwater-revival/



And here is the new cover art for the Blue Moon Swamp re-release:

(https://www.bmg.com/dam/jcr:8b8ef8b2-9037-4791-88f9-ffadf42a813b/John%20Fogerty_Blue%20Moon%20Swamp%2020th_320.jpg)
Source: https://www.bmg.com/de/news/John-Fogerty-signs-exclusive-recordings-deal-with-BMG.html

thanks for sharing  :afro

Another really good article:


Creedence Clearwater Revival – the full story, by John Fogerty, Stu Cook and Doug Clifford

http://www.uncut.co.uk/features/creedence-clearwater-revival-the-full-story-by-john-fogerty-stu-cook-and-doug-clifford-6563

yeah, it's a very saddest story; next to Badfinger, the saddest story in rock and roll. Tom Fogerty RIP

It's amazing how managers really took advantage of musicians back then. 

I read somewhere that many bands continued to tour into their 60s and 70s because they didn't make nearly as much money in their hey day as fans might think. 

When Little Richard was touring in the 90's, he said he was making more money than he did in his heyday. And speaking of ripoffs, there's another guy that really got a raw deal in the 50's. "I signed a contract that payed me half a cent for every record sold, but I never got the other half to make the penny!" Yeah, the managers and record companies knew what they were doing, they knew these young artists were so eager to get their music recorded, and they weren't business majors, so they got taken.

I know some artists like Grand Funk Railroad and Queen had to pay dearly to get out of bad contracts once they realized they were being screwed.

I think I read that Mike Nesmith bought himself out of the last year of the Monkees contract so he could leave and start his own band. Yeah, these guys were not making as much money as we all thought.

Is there a story out there when one of these artists was not ripped off?