The Smiley Smile Message Board

Discuss, review and rate Carl And The Passions- So Tough, released May 1972.

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I love Mess Of Help and some bits of a few of the other songs, but it's pretty slight. Funny, considering some of the good things still in the can at that point.

Half great, half intolerably boring and pretentious. 2 and a half.

The better of the two Blondie/Ricky-era studio albums. Brian and Dennis shine, and Mike and Al's contributions are stellar (yes, even He Come Down).

Not as good as Holland.  In fact, maybe 3/5ths as good.

But worth the price for All This is That.  Maybe the sweetest BB harmony in the catalogue.

Not a big fan of this album. I  do like He Came Down. I like the others but I feel it was more of a cut paste album.


2 stars  :-\

Dennis did sing the songs he wrote. You're mixing this album up with Holland.

Okay, my bad (the fact I have not listened to it in a long time probably does it) but it's still ok.

This album is everything I love about the Beach Boys 70s material.  Great songs, cool lyrics and great harmonies.  But you also get something as a bonus here.  There's no other Beach Boys album that's even remotely similar to this one in terms of style.  Let's be honest, this album really could have been three separate albums.  You've got the rockers like Mess of Help, Here She Comes and Marcella.  You've got the country and gospel stuff like He Come Down and Hold On Dear Brother, then you've got the soft stuff like Dennis' two songs and All This Is That.  There is absolutely no consistency to this album in terms of musical style, and that's one of the most awesome things about it.  There are so many different styles here, and they're all done so well.  A hearty, well-deserved 5.

Those are three short albums.

CATP and Holland should've been a double album, provided some outtakes were added to the mix, like It's A New Day and We Got Love. And for Christ's sake, how about the LONG version of Marcella?!

How about a version of Marcella that actually rocks (ie. the In Concert)...?  I'd take their 70's studio attempts to rock out more seriously if they actually did 'rock'.  "It's About Time" is the only one that succeeds entirely.  Onya Denny.

Yeah. They started to lose their ROCK sound around this time. For me tempo can have a lot to do with how much I like a song.
Idyll... do something with your hair, would ya?!

It's a weirdly rainy-day album. I gave it four, because I love it, but the "rock" numbers, as already noted, don't, and I don't know what the "non-rock" numbers do.

I still think taking on Ricky and Blondie was a very smart move, but what do I know. I'd take this album over anything they did afterwards; at least it sounds like they're not trying to do the human jukebox thing.

But what the f*** happened guys?  These tracks absolutely smoked when performed live... and yet in the studio they sound like a bunch of preschoolers rubbing some sticks together while randomly hitting some tuned percussion.

Personally, I blame Brian.

Why Brian you ask?  Because Carl learnt all his 'production secrets' from Bri (ie, don't turn up your amplifiers, don't hit your drums hard, etc)... So when it came time for the boys to really cook in the studio, they hadn't the foggiest fucking idea how to do it.  Completely contrary to how it should be done.

It shits me.  I can't thank Ricky and Blondie enough, that by the time of the In Concert album, they'd taught the guys how to rock.

Which they promptly forgot by the time of "15 Big Ones".

They never rocked harder live than the surf/garage/proto-Ramonesy surge n' stomp of their live shows in 1964.
That 70's stuff is WAY mellow in comparison.

I love this album.  I love Mess of help and All this is that and Dennis's songs are absolutely georgeous and timeless classics of California songwriting.  Marcella another great song.  Justa cool cruise in your car summer soundtrack.  I love this album.

I like the entire album...except Make it Good. As big of a fan of Dennis I am, it's funny that my two least favorite songs in the entire canon both feature Dennis leads (MIG and In the back of my mind). Horribly overblown and tedious. Otherwise, perfect album. Short, true, but to me, it wounds like an updated Wild Honey.

Dennis' songs on this record are in my mind absolutely gorgeous and reflect his talent in a major way.

Same here.

The last three songs are great. The first five are not. (Although I kinda like Mess Of Help.)

3

I like Mess of help, but I seriously wish the doubletracked vocals were in better sync.

I love when double-tracked vox aren't in perfect sync.

Me too. Drive-In is the best of that.

Sometimes while recording, I just use two takes (with the singer not hearing his previous take while recording a second) and treat it as double-tracked to get that very effect. And yes, Drive-In is a great example of it.

Aside from "Marcella," this album is horrible.
I just can't get into it.  I've tried. 
The sound... man, if this wasn't the Beach Boys,
I wouldn't have given it a chance.

Four singles.

Flame - Hold On, Dear Brother/Here She Comes

Denny & Darryl - Make It Good/Cuddle Up

TM - All This Is That/He Came Down

Brian & Jack - YNAMOHTSA/Marcella.

Excellent.

I agree.  You Need A Mess of Help is OK.  Otherwise, tracks like 'He Come Down' are perfectly horrible.  I keep saying I should give the Dennis tracks more of a chance but I can't because of the aversion therapy the rest of the album has given me.  I give it a very charitable 2. 

Probably my favourite Sunday morning record, this was when I really got into them and I got this not long after it came out.

Why do I like it when it sounds almost nothing like the great 60's albums? Because it is (mostly) honest. It sounds like the band they were at the time; fractured, separated from the man they had always relied on (Brian may have written two songs but he was hardly involved in the recordings), trying to find a direction of their own.

Despite his absence the album contains two great ideas for songs that had been rescued from Brian's out-tray and turned into great songs by Carl.

Unlike Surfs Up it contains two wonderful Dennis songs.

All This Is That is the finest non-Brian song in the Beach Boys history.

He Come Down is....OK actually, inoffensive.

The two Rickie & Blondie tracks are cool. They aren't The Beach Boys but they are cool.

THe production is understated - apart from Marcella which shimmers and Make It Good which goes for an emotional high and just makes it.

Nice cover too. Shame they had to post Brians picture into the band picture the way they did, but as we know, he wasn't around much at the time.

A 4 for me!

i can't believe how much Marcella is rocking in played in concert with BW! I remember when i saw him, he said the song was about his masuse...i though Anna Lee was about to be played! what were the original lyrics to this?

Question for anyone who has the Caribou Remastered CD release of Carl and the Passions - "So Tough" (the one from the early 90s)...

Which cover art was used?  The one with "THE BEACH BOYS" spelled out on the left side of the truck, or the one with "THE BEACH BOYS" spelled out across the top of the album cover like the original LP?

Thanks!

The original LP doesn't have the Beach Boys' name on there. At least my copy doesn't.

I believe the cover art that was used on the 2000 reissue was the same as on the 1990 issue.

Really?  This is what mine looks like...

Notice how "THE BEACH BOYS" is written across the top:



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I have a copy of CATP on vinyl, and my copy doesn't feature the band name on the top. Weird. Maybe I have a later pressing.

Or maybe I do.  Who knows.  That is odd though.

My guess would be that the earlier pressings didn't have the band name, and the later pressings did. 

I purchased my first copy in 1978, brand new from the store....and had to return it, because it contained two copies of "Pet Sounds" and no copy of "So Tough" (I know some people may say two "Pet Sounds" and no "So Tough"s are a better deal, but still...).  I exchanged it for a copy of "Friends"/"Smiley Smile", since they were out of the "Pet Sounds"/"So Tough" set.

Later that year, I returned and bought "Pet Sounds"/"So Tough".  I just checked that copy (purchased in '78), and it does not say "The Beach Boys" the top.  Neither does a supposed first-pressing copy I bought second-hand years later. 

BTW, yes, the 2000 Capitol CD reissue, coupled with "Holland", uses the same cover art as the 1990 Caribou issue.

C-Man

3 really good cuts (Marcella, Mess of Help and All This) but the rest is so/so. A disjointed mess. Sounds like 3 different albums collided (A Dennis solo, a Flame LP and a halfway decent Beach Boys album). After reestablishing themselves with Surfs Up and Sunflower (at least to the public), why dump this half baked piece of crap onto the shelves? Sunflower was saved by the labels' intervention. They should have told the boys to go back to the drawing board with this one. And who needs another copy of Pet SOunds? Stupid. I hate this record.

People who want the best-sounding version of the album.

AMEN.

I've got a 1972 UK pressing of CATP and it HAS the band name across the top and a 1972 US pressing of the double CATP/Pet SOunds and it hasn't got the name. Looks like the single LP version has the name, the double doesn't.

Weird.

So looks mine, but what is that on the right side under the window?

Looks like a price tag.

That would be fine.... mine doesn't have that.... ;D

Actually the UK version had the name in black - unlike the above.

I love CATP. It was the last BB album I ever acquired (on the 2000 two-fer) after trying to track it down on vinyl for years, and I was expecting to be a poor quality album after reading so much negativity about it. However I have always loved it, Brians songs are great, the Flame songs are great (especially hold on...) Dennis' songs are good and even the Mike ones are good. I love the dusty rootsy production and find it a far more engaging listen than the over-rated Holland.
I wish there had been more material from this era, does anyone have a list of outtakes from this album?

My rankings:

1. TM songs
2. Brian's songs
3. Flame songs
4. Dennis's songs

You guys should take this over to the C&TP review thread.

My score:

All This/He Come Down - fantastic
Brian's - above average
Flame's - HSC okay, HODB pretty good
Dennis's - CU okay, MIG sounds unfinished

I think this is a fantastic album -- one of the best rock and roll albums of the 70s.  Frankly, I think if this exact same album had been released by a group that got critical respect instead of derision, it would regularly appear on all-time album lists.

People often talk about the "muddy" mix on this album, but I can't say I really hear it -- except maybe on "Mess of Help" and "Marcella."

MESS OF HELP -- Great rock and roll song by Brian.  The title (supplied by Jack Rieley) is awesome.  My favorite guitar solo on an album full of them. 

HERE SHE COMES -- Awesome Ricky/Blondie song.  Fantastic playing (love the drums, bass, keyboards, guitar -- everything).  Just about the perfect 70s rock song.

HE COME DOWN -- A somewhat controversial song.  I could do without the Maharishi references, but otherwise this is a pretty great rock/gospel song.  A good idea to use the group's voices (with Ricky and Blondie added in) for gospel.

MARCELLA -- Another very good Brian song.  Another great guitar solo.  The fade goes on about 30 seconds too long but is very cool (like Til I Die).

HOLD ON DEAR BROTHER -- A very moving, beautiful song.  Love Blondie's singing, love the steel guitar.  Can't help feeling this was somehow addressed to Brian (even if that wasn't the intention).

MAKE IT GOOD -- A cool Denny track, cool and unique production.

ALL THIS IS THAT -- A beautiful song.  Carl never sounded better.  I could do without the TM references, but it's a very minor quibble.

CUDDLE UP -- Another beautiful song.  Somehow what could have been sappy and sugary comes out authentic from Dennis.  Maybe my favorite song on the whole album.

That's eight tracks, and in my estimation, all eight are outstanding.  I give this album an A+.

Just listened to it again last night. Love the album...sort of a 70s Wild Honey. For me "Make It Good" is the only song that sticks out like a sore thumb. My wife likes it more than I do...she said it reminds her of "When The Tigers Break Free" (by Roger Waters). I can see that.

This album is very good imho, it is unfairly slaughtered by fans and critics.  Sure it seems shaky and Blondie and Ricky's songs seem out of place but the songs themselves are great and unique for a beach boys album.  Brian of course contributed the standouts and Dennis gives us some lush but lovely ballads from his aborted solo album.  To me The Beach Boys can do no wrong during the early seventies and this record is as enjoyable as their others from this era, a 4.

Listened to this today. I have to disagree with Jason B's comments about Blondie and Ricky's songs. To me, they fit perfectly into the tracklist, however Dennis' songs seemed a bit out of place for me. Still rocks!

Well, I'm diggin Cuddle Up...Make It Good could've been something else, maybe funky ala Here She Comes.

I could not agree more, brother.  Very well put.

Looking at the concerts the band was performing around this time, how great would this record have been with the inclusion of "I've Got a Friend" and a re-worked version of "Don't Worry Bill"?!?!  A Beach Boy version of "Sweet Mountain" would have been icing on the cake.

It's too bad that touring commitments forced the Boys to rush release this one.  Another couple of months of studio work could have turned this brief yet strong record into a masterpiece.


 :afro  <-- Blondie Chaplin smiley!

 :police:  <-- Darryl Dragon smiley!

I'm a big fan of CATP, it's unfortunate that it had been underrated so long.
A great, rocking, with no bad song, this is my second favourite 70's BB album (after Sunflower).

4 and half for me.

If it has no bad songs, why does it get a 4?

I really like every song on this album except for He Comes Down. However, I only gave it a 3 because, as an album the songs don't fit together very well like as they do on Holland.

I like everything about this album...guess I'm just a sucker for the Boys during that time period and I just love everything...I especially love Dennis' contributions, even MIG, which some people seem to dislike...but to me, it's heavenly. I can't help it. Guess I have strange taste.

A fraction as good as the albums that bookend it. "All This Is That" is the best song by a long way.

Theres nothing less than stellar on this album. Great piece of work, Marcella was a least fav but now I cant get over the coda.

All This is That is a gorgeous song, no doubt. My favorite goes to 'Here She Comes'...how bout that bassline!

It is kind of strange how Dennis stuck out during Sunflower because his songs were funkier then the others (Slip On Through and Got to Know the Woman). Then the rest of the band get's funkier and he reverts to pretty songs. Wasn't there something Dennis did in 72 that would've been a better fit?

All This Is That is heavenly. Excellent song. He Come Down is fun, always makes me smile. Cuddle Up isn't going anywhere, but it's very pretty. Would be perfect for the soundtrack of some romantic drama movie. Make It Good is one of my least favorite songs by Dennis. And I don't really care for Brian's and the Flame's songs on this one.

This album is very un-Beach Boys. It is refreshing to me when I want to hear different sounding stuff from the band. I really like the two Blondie/Ricky tunes. Make It Good and Cuddle Up sound stellar.  Mess of Help is incredible, it is definetly one of those songs you can play for someone and say, "guess this band..", and they would never get it! Marcella Rocks!

I switched my vote from a 3 to a 4. All This Is That....just about says it all. He Come Down is pretty good considering I'm not a huge fan of Mr. Love. If I could go to any concert at any time it would've been to see the Beach Boys in the C&TPST period....Great Album!!

Couldn't agree more. Make It Good is so beautiful. Those who call it pretentious would have a point, if Dennis' lead wasn't obviously so heartfelt. Cuddle Up straddles the thin line between sweetness and schmaltz, but is a great song. Hold On Dear Brother is another little gem, and Marcella, while not the definitive version, is still a great, great song.

After Pet Sounds and Sunflower, this is tied with Wild Honey as my next fave.

I find the best way to rate an album is to rate each song track by track which is why i'd give CATP a decent 3 out of 5, even though it is so far from perfect, and nowhere near as good as Surf's Up and Holland (the other two Reilly albums).
Mess Of Help: 3/5. Badly produced, but some nice changes in styles, and a great fade.
Here She Comes: 2/5. A nice enough song, just utterly out of place on a BB record. By the time of Holland, Blondie and Ricky would be fitting in, and contributing to, the groups style well, but here it is rather jarring..
He Come Down: 2/5. A nice gospel chorus, but the lyrics are atrocious and the song just endlessly meanders in the middle, and badly. More poor production.
Marcella: 3/5. A good, not great, Brian track. The live version is much more powerful.
Hold On Dear Brother: 3/5.  Much better than their other offering, this song features some great singing from Blondie and the group.
Make It Good: 5/5. Stunning!
All This Is That: 4/5. Despite the usual dumb Mike Love TM-inspired lyrics, this song is a real album highlight, featuring a tremendous melody and a gorgeous vocal from Carl. They messed up the production on the fade though..
Cuddle Up: 5/5. I'm a self-confessed Dennis freak, but when people complain about tracks such as this being over-produced or schmaltzy and so on, I wonder if they are hearing the same music? To me it is heart-felt, beautiful, restrained, and inventive. Sure, his 2 songs don't fit in with the rest of the album, but surely that's a good thing...? Should he have deliberately badly produced his contributions to fit with the rest of the record?

Anyway, 3 out of 5.

What aspect of the production is it that you judge as bad? I ask because I think it's a very well produced track--one of my favorites from that era, at least.

Carl's vocal is forced, and the backing vocals are very jarring whereas they should just flow as BB backing vocals usually do. Also, although the track is interesting in that it changes tack a lot, some of the cuts are poorly done i.e. the final splice into the 'she don't know' fade. It's a nice tune, certainly not a great one though. They produced far better in this period methinks

I quite like Carl and the Passions - So Tough, especially in contrast to its mediocre reputation.  You get a lot of different stuff on the album that you won't find elsewhere in the BB catalogue.  Some of the styles don't go well together at all as far as an album concept goes, but nevertheless, it works for me.

You Need A Mess Of Help To Stand Alone - 4/5
Here She Comes - 4.5/5
He Come Down - 3.5/5
Marcella - 5/5
Hold On Dear Brother - 4/5
Make It Good - 4/5
All This Is That - 5/5
Cuddle Up - 4.5/5

And that will round to a 4.  All This Is That is the big highlight IMO.

I love this album, Mess of Help shows that the BBs could rock out just as well as a lot of their more popular peers, would've preferred it as the original Beatrice of Baltimore-I wonder if any recording with those lyrics exists. Here She Comes is a good tune to dance to, has an awesome bassline. He Come Down is rescued from its awful lyrics by the enthusiasm the guys give to the choir-like vocals, the prominence of Blondie's voice in the group chorus parts makes the song sound legitimate (to this non-religious white boy, anyway). Marcella is an excellent song but the performance is kinda sluggish and bland sounding-the version on In Concert was a vast improvement. Hold On Dear Brother is a halfway decent country-ish song. Make It Good (I almost said Make It Big) isn't one of Dennis' best, but his voice sounds great, and I kinda like Daryl Dragon's arrangements. All This Is That, much like He Come Down, is rescued by the vocals. Carl's soaring falsetto is absolutely beautiful. Cuddle Up is a great song, I especially love the ending when the whole group (or is it just Carl overdubbing his voice several times?) comes in behind Dennis coupled with the horns/orchestra playing at full force, its pretty awe-inspiring. I think 4th of July should've been place on this album right after All This Is That and then segued into Cuddle Up. To me the end of 4th of July and beginning of Cuddle Up sound pretty similar, maybe someone who knows more music theory would be able to tell a lot better than my untrained ears.

Overall, I'd give it a 4, Marcella could've been spiffed up a little, and it wouldn't have hurt then to throw about 4 more songs onto the record. They certainly had enough quality material in the vaults.

Funny, I've heard a lot of criticism about how the album doesn't hang together, but it does for me. I like every song on it. It's true that the Chaplin-Fataar parts don't sound like the beach Boys, but hell, neither does anything else on the album. They are still great songs that I probably would have never owned or heard if it hadn't had the Beach Boys name attached to it. Not as good as Holland over all, and could use a few lighter songs, but I liked it a lot.

Three and only because of a few songs. Don't really care for this album:

Best to worst:
All this is That (One of my top 10 favorite BB songs.)
Marcella
You Need a Mess of Help to Stand Alone
Cuddle Up
Here She Comes
He Come Down
Make It Good
Hold on, Dear Brother

I've probably commented on this album already, but I'm listening to it now and I love love love love this album! I think this was the 2nd "twofer" I bought after Pet Sounds and Party!/Stack O Tracks, mostly cause I dug the cover. All of the songs are tops. Stand outs for me are Marcella and YNAMOFTSA. I really like "Hold On Dear Brother" after just listening to it again. He Come Down is the "weakest" track, but it's still nice to listen to.

I've changed my vote to three. As much as I like the Brian Tracks, the "Flame Tracks" and Cuddle Up and All This Is That, I really can't get into"He Came Down". I don't know if I like the strings on Cuddle Up, either, I don't want to put the Captain down or anything, but his arrangements don't work for me--though I imagine they  sound significantly better on vinyl.

I was the first person in my high school to own a portable cassette player (8-tracks were still king, but only in cars) and pre-recorded cassettes were hard to find. I came across CATP/PS at a Woolco store (a defunct discount store, sort of the Walmart of its day). I bought it because I recognized God Only Knows, Sloop John B and Wouldn't It Be Nice; I didn't really know or care that this was an old album with a new album. I just saw I was getting quite a lot of songs for a decent price.
And I liked it all! It was the start of an unending BB jones that I have loved for, what, 37 years or so? I began looking for articles or info about the BBs and there wasn't much at the time. The only pertinent book in my library was Lillian Roxon's "Rock Encyclopedia," and I xeroxed the entry for the BBs, which featured a discography. Before the two-fers of the post-Pet Sounds albums came out, I would look at those song listings in bewilderment, thinking "What would a song called 'Fall Breaks and Back to Winter' SOUND like?"
In retrospect, I like all of CATP except Blondie and Ricky's two tunes, which have always felt clunky and dull to me. The rest is gold...and if you've never gone parking in your '65 Valiant with the lay-down seats while "Cuddle Up" was playing on the 8-track...well, you ain't lived.

I honestly hate most of Dennis' ballads. They just move so slow, each note plodding by with the speed of a snail, his voice rolling by interminably slow, like sap down a tree.  If he would have tried to cover "In My Room" he would have made it 5 minutes long easily, and that is exactly what was wrong with this guy and why his 'epic ballads' will never see any acclaim outside of Beach Boys diehards. There will be some nice melodies in his ballads (some of them, anyway), but he tries so hard to stretch everything he can out of everything that it's overwrought and melodramatic to the extreme.

I'm gonna have to agree there.

Much of his acclaim is coming from the indie crowd. Sigur Ros has quoted the string parts to Cuddle Up. Also, people like El Perro Del Mar rave about Dennis' stuff; listen to her current record. There are a number of contemporary artists who have listened to and been influenced by his music.

You Need A Mess Of Help To Stand Alone: good one from Brian. I actually like the ragged production style. How they could go that way after Surf's Up is beyond me, though. It certainly is one of the group's greatest WTF moments. 4/5
Here She Comes: kind of pointless, but still a nice enough tune as it doesn't actually disturb the flow of the record for me. 3/5
He Come Down: very underrated. Shadows of That Same Song. Lots of fun as far as I'm concerned. 4/5
Marcella: of course the In Concert version blows this one out of the water, but still it should've been more of a hit even in its original incarnation. 4/5
Hold On, Dear Brother: just like Here She Comes, yet at least you get to hear a bit of Carl this time. 3/5
Make It Good: a heartfelt lead vocal indeed. Kind of reminds me of Don't Talk, though I don't think this one is nearly as good. 3/5
All This Is That: the obvious highlight. The lyrics are a bit hard to swallow for me ("golden auras" and the like), but this is still as good as it gets in terms of a seventies BB song without Brian Wilson anywhere near. 5/5
Cuddle Up: always been a favorite. Love the second part especially, which is beyond gorgeous. 5/5

hey does anyone happen to know which cuts brian lends his voice to on this album? thanks

Don't know, but I definitely hear him on Cuddle Up and I think I hear him on that gospel song(not all this is that, the other one).

I believe I have read that he's on Marcella, too.

/
did any big fans at the time scratch their heads over the new additions to the group? seems sort of like the beatles getting two new members who not only play but write their own material for the group's albums.

"Marcella" (according to Carl) and "He Come Down".

He is also on You Need A Mess as per an interview Mike gave in 1972. I hear him on that and Marcella quite clear myself. Bruce also wrote about Mess Of Help being a Brian production in a review he wrote at the time. Cuddle Up he could be there but I can't say for sure. The Ricky Blondie songs, All This Is That and Make It Good he isn't on fpr sure.

cool, I've been checking this one out a lot lately.. some underrated BW songs in there..I actually like He Come Down. there I said it.. it's weird to hear "15 big ones" Brian voice at that break down part.. I can't really tell if Brian is on the high parts on Mess of Help and Marcella or if he's in the middle somehwere.

and Cuddle Up is epic.

'Cuddle Up' alone makes this a 3. It''s incredible - Those swells in the chorus just kill me. i'm not so wild about Make it Good, that's a bit too overwrought somehow  :-\ The rest is just... ok. I like the oddness of 'Mess of Help',  and 'Here She Comes' is a slice of sheer funk, but apart from that.... so 3.

The most underrated BB's lp of the 70's.
I like all the songs on it,there's a peaceful feeling throughout it(with disturbed and beautiful moment by Dennis)not other lp of the boys sounds like that!Ricky and Blondie were the best outside musicians that the band has ever have.
Strangely,that's the only  BB's lp of the 70's without any outtakes(or rumoured traks).
Bruce Johnston has written "endless harmony"during these sessions but left the band soon after.Too bad!
Is anyone has something to adds about the making of this album,outtakes or anything else,
I would be happy to hear it! :)

I read somewhere (was it from you, AGD ?) that Out In The Country was a C&tP outtake (instead of a Holland-outtake)

A quick review of AGD's website shows several other Brian titles--none of which I've ever actually heard, just the titles--from around that time, too. And with Dennis's music, is it really possible to tell which of his recordings were Beach Boys outtakes versus Dennis Wilson recordings? Seems his songs had a way of crossing that line when the band needed or wanted them.

Hmm,what's AGD please?

it's in fact "who's AGD": the one and only Andrew G. Doe...

He is, I think it's safe to say, one of the more knowledgeable people on Beach Boys matters on the planet.* And in addition to whatever info you get from his posts on this board, you'll find his website here: http://www.btinternet.com/~bellagio/

Thank you guys!

IMO, Out in the Country always sounded like a Holland outtake, but I could totally be wrong

4. This album has really grown on me. I'm starting to like Blondie/Ricky's contributions more and more as I listen. The rest is really good also.

My review of CATP -ST. As always for what it's worth!

1- Mess of Help to Stand Alone. Love it! Blondie and Ricky brought the 'boys into the 70's and made them sound less of a 60's leftover. Takes the best bits from the classic sound and grafts them on to a gritty countrified stomp of a rocker. Never did clarify if that was Brian growling behind Carl's lead did we? Be cool as hell if it was! Oh yeah and no other group would conceive of sticking in a do-wop break where they do. 5/5

2- Here She comes. So it sounds nothing like a standard Beach Boy song. So what? An earthy sounding soul groove. 4/5

3- He Came Down. I never used to like this one that much but over time it has really grown on me. Vocals get very overzealous in places. Testify brother! Bit long perhaps. 4/5

4- Marcella. Cant bring myself to give this anything than full marks but I sure do wish they'd sped it up a tad like how they performed it live and had Blondie play some of that amazing slide riff all over it. Vocal tag shows BW had lost none of his vocal arranging abilities. 5/5

5- Hold on Dear Brother. Beach Boys do 'The Band'. Can't argue with that. 5/5

6- Make it Good. Like I do when it comes on my CD player let's just skip this one. 0/5

7- All This is That. Album highlight. Couldn't give two figs about TM  but it sure brought out the best in Al and Mike creatively. Words cannot do justice to Carl's vocals. 5/5

8- Cuddle Up. OK Dennis you are now officially forgiven for track 6. This tune sums up everything about Dennis to me. 5/5

Overall 4/5  A better second Denny song and perhaps a bit more Brian input and the 'boys would have been batting 4 to 4 at this point album wise.

Anyone else agree that this is one of the best sounding BB records?

The clarity is unbelievable! Besides Tom Petty's Full Moon Fever, I can't think of a single album that tops the clarity of this one! I don't find Marcella to be a phenomenal song, but it sounds soooooooooo good!

Though sounding much better on the 2000 2-fer, Here She Comes and Hold On Dear Brother sounded rather muddy to me on the original vinyl and Sony CD issue.

1. You Need A Mess Of Help 9.5/10
2. Here She Comes 7/10
3. He Come Down 8.5/10
4. Marcella 9.5/10
5. Hold On, Dear Brother 7/10
6. Make It Good 6.5/10
7. All This Is That 10/10
8. Cuddle Up 9.5/10

Album Rating: 8.43

CUDDLE UP....CUDDLE UP..CUDDLE UP....my favourite ever denny song..and one of my all time favourite songs PERIOD...i can only think of two other songs that have that same effect on me..spaced out,dreamy,other wordily,profoundly beautiful...they being JUDEE SILLS THE KISS..and NEIL YOUNGS EXPECTING TO FLY..time stands still when i hear these songs....
as for the rest of the album there is some junk..he come down,in particular..but marcela,hold on dear brother and the whole of side two are fabulous....a much underrated album

Exactly when is that?

Edit: Must be 3.39

About as 3 out of 5 as it's possible to be. Not bad, not great. Some terrific highs, some terrible lows.

The lows? He Come Down - I mean, really... Why? Why? Why? And Blondie/Ricky haven't quite gelled yet... Also, the overall production is gernerally scrappy.

The Highs - the final trio of songs is pretty awe-inspiring. And I love the fade to Marcella.

DAMN, "Marcella" is such an awesome song.........  :3d

(http://i34.tinypic.com/1zvr686.jpg)

who is that guy in the car? It's not one of the band (certainly not Brian and all the others are there in front of it). I rmemeber seeing him play the piano in the promo vid for 'You Need A Mess Of Help'. Anyone know who he is?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daryl_Dragon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daryl_Dragon)

Got a 1st pressing w Pet sounds for $3 in NYC yesterday. WIN.

It's definately not a BAD album, but coming on the heels of Sunflower and Surf's Up, I can understand how disappointed people were. All of the material is decent, but there are too few exceptional moments. Cuddle Up is probably the best, followed by All This is That and Marcella. There isn't anything on here I love as much as Long Promised Road, Feel Flows, All I Wanna Do, Forever, This Whole World...

Whereas Surf's Up was a departure from the usual Beach Boys album, most of it was still steeped in familar territory. Carl & The Passions takes some getting used to because it's the first album that isn't very "Beach Boys" at all. I've grown to love Marcella, I think it's a dynamite track. And since I've seen All This Is That on the tour, I appreciate that a lot more too.

Not a bad album. It's nice to hear something different from the BBs "sound". Best tracks include Marcella, You Need a Mess of a Help to Stand Alone, He Came Down, and Cuddle Up (The best track of the album, Dennis's performance is superb!)

This is a pretty bad a*s LP!  This was still when they were trying to forge ahead...still trying to be legit.  After "Holland" it all went downhill so fast and before you knew it we had the Mike Love Endless Bummer Stage Show and 12-minute disco tracks.  The addition of Blondie and Ricky was genius.  I love how they were allowed to bring in their sound to the traditional mix rather than have what made them different muddled to conform with what the Beach Boys were supposed to sound like.  It just sounds unlike anything else in their canon.  This was a vital, yet imperfect, LP made by a functioning band.  No, it's not "Pet Sounds" or even "Sunflower" but it can stand tall on it's own.  It's just a shame that the marketing was so, so poor for this LP.  I love listening to it from start to finish...and that's not something I can say about every BB LP!

Plus, even if you hate the rest of the LP...Dennis' voice on "Cuddle Up" is absolutely stunning. 

Not the "Mike Love Endless Bummer Stage Show", but the "Fan Induced Endless Bummer Stage Show". I doubt that there is a person in here who attended the shows throughout late 73 through 75 period, would disagree that it was the audiences forcing the oldies on the band. From my observations over that period, the band just gave in and gave the audience what they wanted to hear. From 76-80, they tried in the studio to be different with each release to hit on something that would work, but concert audiences only wanted the oldies. You play to who pays you.

I just read something about Jim Guercio pushing the "oldies" thing on them (I think from Mark Dillon's book).  He said that he went to see them and they were playing newer stuff and the audiences were sparse and lethargic and he told them that if they started mixing in some of the oldies that they could build the crowds and their popularity...which proved to be true.  I think you still get that today.  I just saw them on the 1st and you have a large chunk of the audience who just wanted to hear the "Endless Summer" type songs and as soon as something like "All This is That" was performed they headed off to buy another beer. 

Yes, indeed. Though, audiences were even much ruder then. The audience would actually scream out oldies titles while the band was playing the newer material. If you listen to some of the old shows floating out there as legwear, you can hear Mike, Bruce and Carl asking the crowd to hold off on the requests until later in the show, etc.. They didn't stop dead altogether. It was a slow transition to the all oldies shows, but by the time of the Beachago Tour it was fairly complete. So, maybe Guercio did have input into their set list.

And this was a battle many stars with an illustrious past had to fight. Everyone remembers Rick Nelson's song "Garden Party", about being booed off the stage at an oldies concert for his long hair and new sound. We're lucky, in retrospect, that the BB's were able to forge ahead as long as they did before caving in to the inevitable. CATP is the low point of the early 70's quartet of albums...but leagues better than their later low point...(DRUM ROLL PLEASE) of course I speak of the classic Summer in Paradise :lol

Guercio discusses it in pretty good detail in Dillon's book.  He at least makes it sound that he had a large hand in getting the band to give the fans what they want under the promise that if they did so...they'd start packing larger venues and bringing in some money.  He was right...but in doing so...he obviously created a monster.

I have the book, but must not have gotten that far into it. I'm at work now, but under what song title does he discuss this in the book? Thanks for the info. :)

I got the LP about a year ago (second to last LP I managed to acquire, MIU being the last). Played it once then without intently listening, then filed it in its chronological place...

many months pass, then I find myself scrolling through the 'best bass lines' thread, and see a song titled 'Here She Comes'. I assume it's on CATP-ST since I don't know it, dig it out and give it a whirl. It's un-beach boysyness hits me immediately, I lift the needle and give the album a whirl... My mind wanders after track 2...

I then see in a MOJO list of the 50 best beach boys songs , and it has 'Cuddle Up'. I ignore it, then at some point dig out the album and play it. In that time certain events in my life would cause this song to mean alot more to me, and boy does it! I finally get through the album, and think - hmmm, that wasn't too bad, peter out in the middle though...

I then played it again...

and again...

and again...

Now, as the needle co-incidentally lifts after the closing notes of 'Cuddle Up' once more, the album has finally rested comfortably in my brain - the jarring change of sound is now a pleasant one, and that heartfelt ending is too powerful for me not to want to hear it in the arms of another.

4

Not too fond of this album... it doesn't sound bad but at the same time it's not very interesting or memorable, if sort of ambitious. It's different from anything the band ever did (I'd never have guessed these were the guys that did Summer Days and Summer Nights!), though not really for the better. Still, I can sort of see where some people are coming from when they say this is underrated, it's just not my cup of tea is all. I'd give it a 2.5, but I'll be nice and give it a 3, just because Stig O'Hara was in it.

Was listening to this in the car with my boys the other day (4 and 6).... it's really more of an EP than a full album, especially when you consider how it was originally released as a double album with Pet Sounds... how weird is that?! YNAMOHTSA, Marcella, All This is That, and to a lesser extend He Come Down are all stone cold classics. Of the remaining 4 tracks, 3 are absolute trash - the two god awfully boring Dennis songs, and the equally godawfully boring Hold On Brother. Leaving This Town is ok, but it's REALLY un-Beach Boy-y, and while I appreciate the BB's efforts in trying to do something different, the Ricky/Blondie songs are downright mediocre at best.

So it's really a 50-50 split, but it's a split really of an EP.

BY THE WAY - DOES ANYONE KNOW WHAT IS UP WITH THE TITLE?? Carl & The Passions - "So Tough" - Can anyone explain this????

One of my favourite BBs LPs - just to get that out of the way. :3d


(Please correct me if I'm wrong on this one..)

Kind of an odd album title, sure. It was intended to work like this: it pretends to be an album (or EP, if you like ;)) not by the Beach Boys - but by Carl & The Passions. A group name (or a proposal for one) that harkens back to the very early days and supposedly was an attempt to encourage young Carl to stay in the group or try his best, musically. Another story goes that it was indeed the name of a band Carl played in when he was very young.
By 1972 it was kind of an in-joke. As for the "So Tough" part: I don't have a clue.

Mate, I agree with every single word you've posted there, right down to the specific song selection. Well put.

Thanks Lowbacca - the "so tough" part is so random. But just to clarify I did not mean to include that icon at the end of my post!! I'm not upset about the title, after all. hahaha to the contrary its quite amusing! in a random, odd sort of way.  :lol

I'd give this a 1. None of the songs are good and some are among the worst released by the band (Make It Good, He Come Down). I don't like the addition of Ricky and Blondie either. They are mediocre songwriters and make the band sound like a generic early 70s act.

On that note, I don't consider Ricky and Blondie true Beach Boys. They were hired hands intended to help the band seem more like the popular FM rock bands of the day. I really doubt that they were in the group for anything other than the money -- their musical background really speaks against  them having any real interest in the band's music. I can see why they weren't included in the reunion. Also, Blondie chaplin looks like a troll now: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-M4b9PRWJiUY/UC2StHBRhLI/AAAAAAAADwQ/874AEzjnp28/s640/294882_284698468217957_1806773783_n.jpg

You don't consider "Marcella", "You Need A Mess Of Help To Stand Alone" or "All This Is That" as good songs? (http://www.smiley-paradies.de/smileys/gefuehle/gefuehle_0435.gif)

All This Is That is good... not a fan of the other two. Just standard rockers if you'd ask me.

Or Cuddle Up? That's 1 out of 5 for both CATP and Holland. You sure you're on the right band forum here...?

I think the Ricky/Blondie phase was perhaps the weakest of their entire career. They (almost) completely lost their musical identity and Brian wasn't contributing nearly enough. I listen to The Beach Boys for what they are good at -- good melodies --  not for faux-blues rock.  I'm not close minded. Smiley Smile and Love You, despite their unconventionality,  are two of my favorite Beach Boys albums because they have consistently brilliant songcraft.

I don't understand why I need to worship every phase of the band's career to be a fan, and to be able to visit this board.

I think CATP and Holland in particular have always divided the fans. They're not my favourites either.

I guess he means because some fans love these records whilst some fans don't like them at all. It seems it's not an even split though, far more fans seem to like them than not. Personally I think Holland is one of the greatest albums of their career and certainly one of their very, very best of the '70's. Every track is a gem.

I always thought Holland was a bit overrated. Many fantastic tracks, but as a whole it's a bit too dreary for me.

Even though it may not be as horrible as I make it out to be, it's definitely so different from Pet Sounds and other Brian dominated albums that it is easy to see why some people, like myself, don't like it very much.

I think an accurate reflection of fans' opinions on the albums is Rate Your Music. On the site, Holland gets a 3.48 and CAPT gets a 3.10. The first is even lower than Smiley Smile (3.65), and the latter compares in score to the pre-All Summer Long albums, which generally range from late 2s to early 3s. Both albums are far below Sunflower (3.81) and Surf's Up (3.77), close to Today! (3.80).

Well those to me seem to be surprisingly low scores for such beloved albums as Today! and Sunflower. Jeez, what do you have to do to get a 4 on there...?

Get rid of Tears In The Morning and Bull Daddy I suppose

Don't be thrown, a 3.8+ is considered a great score. Pet Sounds is 4.23 and Smile Sessions a 4.33 so while a 3.48 for Holland might not sound much it's actually quite a good score in the context of RYM.

Carl And The Passions- So Tough sounds like a bizarro greatest hits album to me.

A lot of disparate voices crammed together on one slab of vinyl. Bar "Make It Good", it's damn good to me.

"You Need a Mess of Help to Stand Alone" - 5/5
"Here She Comes" - 4.5/5
"He Come Down" - 4/5
"Marcella" - 5/5
"Hold On, Dear Brother" - 4/5
"Make It Good" - 2.5/5
"All This is That" - 5/5
"Cuddle Up" - 5/5

Easily their second-most underrated album.
I actually prefer this over the slightly overrated Holland!
YNAMOHTSA Is my favourite track, and admittedly I prefer this over both Marcella and Sail on Sailor.
Dennis's tracks are not favourites of his, but still great tracks that helps make it worth getting this album.
The Chaplin/Fataar tracks are certainly different from anything the Beach Boys ever did, before and since. But unlike a lot of people, I agree that this is a very good thing!
Had this got much more notice by the public, and sold much better along with Holland, maybe the general public would have actually looked at the Beach Boys much more favourably and may have greatly helped their reputation. Maybe with that, the Beach Boys may have not degenerated to an Oldies act.
4 out of 5

As some of you may know, I'm fairly new to The Beach Boys. I only started listening to them about 2 years ago.

I haven't even listened to all of their albums all the way through!

I came across this album at a local antique shop and passed it by. I thought that since it was paired with Pet Sounds it must be rubbish and moved along (kicking myself). I got a subscription to Spotify and have been listening to music while falling asleep lately and decided to put on this album. The first 4 tracks are SO good. I've got the feeling from the short time I've been on this board that this album is considered to be on the lower end of the spectrum in reference to the discography and I really don't understand why.

I find every track on this album to be very enjoyable with the exception of hold on dear brother. I mean - its okay, but doesn't really hold a candle to the rest of the album... By far the weakest link.

This has really become one of my favorite BB albums.

If it holds up over time we'll see
for now 4/5

Exactly the same, I only started getting into them in 2011, much to my dad's horror (he hates the BB's)
And yeah, CATP is a underrated classic, their second-most underrated album

One of the most underrated albums ever. This should've sold a million copies. It's really edgy but still has the original Beach Boys style.

You Need a Mess of Help to Stand Alone - 5/5 - One of the coolest songs Brian ever wrote.
Here She Comes - 4.5/5 - Intro is awesome, that bassline! And I love the guitar solo.
He Come Down - 3.5/5 - Great song but it's somehow a bit boring.
Marcella - 5/5 - SUPER!
Hold On, Dear Brother - 4/5 - Highly underrated song.
Make It Good - 3.5/5 - It's good but feels like it's missing something. It doesn't really sound like a complete song.
All This is That - 4/5 - Amazing! Only one minus from the chorus, I find it dull. I heard All This is That first time ever in London last year when they performed it live. It took me awhile to get it.
Cuddle Up - 5/5 - First listen blew my mind. How something this great and touching can be so unknown? Cuddle Up is a masterpiece and I can't think a better song to end this record.

So again 4/5 for the whole album. It's criminally underrated and should have a lot bigger fanbase that it has. There is not a single weak track here. And I like the fact that for once they have an album full of "long" songs meaning about 4 mins lenght and not that usual fast 1.50-2.30 min. stuff. It's different and it works. Surf's Up-Carl and the Passions-Holland make a ****ing great trilogy.

The Chaplin/Fataar era is their second-best! How can you say it's worse than say, 1983-2011?
The only thing I wish would have happened was for them to stay on a lot longer instead of them leaving after a few years, Endless Summer coming out and the beginning of a slow, gradual decline for the Beach Boys!
Anyway, that era was a nice change for them, and had it got a lot more attention from the public, it may have gotten rid of their embarrasing image problem

Does this mean you don't like any of his early 70's gems such as It's About Time (Sung by Carl, Written by Dennis), Forever, Slip on Through, WIBNTLA, Carry Me Home, or River Song (Written during that period, came out in 1977)?

If this album is underrated, I must be one of the people who is underrating it. There are too few songs and they're mostly much too long and there's no coherence. (Not that I need coherence in an album IF all the songs are great, but in this case they aren't.) I don't like the 1970s model of extended songs, jamming, and seeking macho blues-rock credibilty. I also don't much like Holland or In Concert or Pacific Ocean Blue. I'd love to have seen this era of the group live, it would have been mind-blowing, but as far as listening to records at home goes, I'd rather listen to 1962-1971.

However, I do love ALL THIS IS THAT, and enjoy the Dennis tracks and MESS OF HELP.

BLASPHERMY!!! PERESECUTE, KILL THE HERETIC!!!  ;D

Carl and the Passions is an album with lots (well not lots, its only 8 tracks!) of great songs which I like very much.

You Need A Mess of Help to Stand Alone: A great rocker which i love jamming to. It would be quite awesome to hear a live recording of this song.
Here She Comes: Every song Ricky and Blondie wrote for the band was great and no better example of that then this. The bass is amazing. One of my favorites on this album.
He Came Down: Mike Love's attempt at gospel kinda feels like a demo (especially in the latter half of the song). The vocals are pretty cool though.
Marcella: Brian's rocker. The song is great but the vocals should've been mixed better. Needs a louder rocking rhythm guitar as well. Lyrics are great though.
Hold On Dear Brother: I will admit I really like this song. Probably because my dad's record/cd collection mostly included country music and so I can appreciate this song more than other Beach Boys fans. Great songs.
Make It Good: The only song I really don't like on this album. Sorry Dennis, this song doesn't really go anywhere and is really poorly mixed. It should've been developed more (or less maybe).
All This Is That: Simply- Beautiful. The vocals are great. The instrumentation is great. This song is great.
Cuddle Up: Now this is how you do a slow song with an orchestra (not Make It Good!). Utter perfection. The melody and chords are beautiful.

I give this album a 4 out of 5. Needs more songs but what's here is great.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjhHB4J_TCI

Just sounds like live vocals over the instrumental track.

Music 4/5.. cover art.. OK..  I can certainly say out of 8 tracks that 6 are great and 2 are BORING.... HODB + MIG.. Dennis"s song IMHO is about the worst song he ever recorded.. .. Overblown.. Boring.. Heavy Handed.. Muddy..  Now I find the other 6 to be very good to excellent.. The band is in transition but successful .. DW had better songs stockpiled..  When this came out I remember hearing Marcella + He Come Down on the radio a number of times.. I guess I should add that I find Cuddle Up to be .. Precious.. Tender... Awesome.. And ATIT a total home run of serenity and good vibes..

I always wondered if there was ever a push by the band to actually have this album released under the band name 'Carl And The Passions'? It would have been a neat move, I think, given the new sound - and The Beach Boys logo looks like it was slapped on by label mandate at the last second.

Anyway, I absolutely love this record. In my top 5 Beach Boys albums I think. I'm surprised it's so divisive, but maybe I shouldn't be. I love 70's R&B so that may colour my view a little. I really do think it's a triumph though, and by sheer virtue of the fact that it sounds like nothing else in the band's catalog, it is of great value.

You are correct. It was slapped on when the CD was first released. In the U.S. at least, the original LP release did not have any such logo. I know that back in 1972 when I first saw it in the record stores, I thought they changed their name. I only knew it was The Beach Boys by turning the album over and seeing the Pet Sounds cover on the back side.

If you added CATP and Holland together, the result would be OK but uneven and lacking a collective identity, maybe in a kind of White Album way (but the individual tracks are largely nowhere near as good as on that Beatles classic). Some of the tracks sound closer to The Band or CS&N than a Brian Wilson production. Dennis's songs have beauty but are over-lush. Perhaps of all pre-1978 BB albums, you have to love the music of that particular era (CS&N etc) to love these albums. I don't think they survive much as "timeless works" like almost all the ones from Today to Sunflower do.

The Beach Boys boldly shuffle their lineup a bit here, and the results are......well.

I think this album as a whole is not up to the same standards as Sunflower and Surf's Up.  I ranked it a 3. 

One thing that strikes me about this album is that, to me, it doesn't really sound like The Beach Boys for the first few songs.  Personally, I don't think Blondie and Ricky gelled with the Boys until Holland. 

You Need a Mess of Help to Stand Alone is alright. 

To me, the album doesn't really pick up until Marcella, four songs in. 

From that point on, the album is pretty enjoyable. 

All This is That is my favorite track on the album.  I really enjoy the mellow Beach Boys tunes from this period, especially with Carl in top vocal form. 

The album closes with the excellent Cuddle Up. 

It's pretty bold for an iconic band to shake up the lineup the way the Boys did, and to me, it didn't pay off until the second album. 

I will agree that's not a high point in Carl's career.  But I think the song itself is great.

"You Need a Mess of Help to Stand Alone" - 5/5
"Here She Comes" - 4/5
"He Come Down" - 5/5
"Marcella" - 4/5
"Hold On, Dear Brother" - 4/5
"Make It Good" - 1/5
"All This is That" - 5/5
"Cuddle Up" - 5/5

I'd say on the whole the album is very good, with He Come Down and All This is That the standouts (Yes there was a time when Mike could write good TM lyrics!!). Marcella worked better live, the studio version sounds as if it was mastered too slow. The only turd in the punchbowl is Make it Good. My ideal Carl & The Passions would have had Brian give them Sweet Mountain in it's place.
Overall 4/5.

You're all mad!! Make It Good is a gem - so original and unique.

I'd never been a fan. I loved "Marcella" and "All This Is That" but the rest had always seemed incongruous in one way or another. Until today. Thanks be to Scott G at YouTube (and maybe here as well) for his alternate version. I've been converted, it seems----although I still have to decide on a rating. (I shall listen to this version again soon.)  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4T26lvc58o

As SG says: "Read the description please!"

Scott G is jiggy22 here.

OK----thanks, BDIB. :=)

No problem!  :)

This album has grown on me over the years. It's not one of their best, but it's far from the worst. Cuddle Up is a gem; You Need a Mess of Help to Stand Alone gets this off to a good start; All This is That is nice - although I used to think it was "Feel Flows (light)". I don't know if the Blondie/Ricky songs really belong here, but they're alright. Make it Good makes no impression on me, it's just there. The length of the album is pretty standard for the group, but still it feels short, having only 8 songs. Surprised Carl didn't contribute to the writing except for "This is That".

I am listening to this album{vinyl} that I bought in the early/mid 70's.I like it a whole lot more now ,some 40 some years later.It is SO different from the previous BB albums.Cuddle Up is a symphonic masterpiece.All This Is That is incredible.The album came with Pet Sounds...That is a nice Bonus.

Regrettably the YouTube vid has been removed but you can still get to hear the "alternate" C&TP here, thanks to the intrepid Scott G:

http://jiggy22.blogspot.nl/2016/05/the-beach-boys-so-tough-alternate.html