Backing Vox 'Let's go away...'

[HeyJude]

Seriously, I typically don't like the "crack a joke in the middle of a serious debate because you don't give a f***" sorts of posts. I didn't meant to be dismissive of anyone, and I really do give a f***.

To be honest, my joke was all about the autotune stuff, nothing to do with the original LGAFA topic.

And I agree, I'm not sure why the NPP autotune stuff had to be dredged up again, but it's best to stay back on the original topic.

To that end though, I think all the evidence has been laid out there. There have been other debates that were much less clear-cut, basically boiling down to subjective listening and no other evidence. I think the extant tapes tell as much of the tale for LGAFA as there is.

[mike moseley]

Can anyone email me mp3s of any of the multis..?  I know there's stuff on the box but I don't have it with me.

I'm honestly baffled by the split opinions about this piece and I'd love to listen from a different angle.

Seriously, I typically don't like the "crack a joke in the middle of a serious debate because you don't give a f***" sorts of posts. I didn't meant to be dismissive of anyone, and I really do give a f***.

To be honest, my joke was all about the autotune stuff, nothing to do with the original LGAFA topic.

And I agree, I'm not sure why the NPP autotune stuff had to be dredged up again, but it's best to stay back on the original topic.

To that end though, I think all the evidence has been laid out there. There have been other debates that were much less clear-cut, basically boiling down to subjective listening and no other evidence. I think the extant tapes tell as much of the tale for LGAFA as there is.

[18thofMay]

It's not a vocal, you have your definitive answer. Please close the thread!

[mike moseley]

I haven't identified what it is to the degree that I'd like.

And how do you know what it is/isn't..?  were you at the session..?  Have you got the multis..?

It's not a vocal, you have your definitive answer. Please close the thread!

[Andrew G. Doe]

 

or...

 

[guitarfool2002]

I see a comparison between the two issues, and primarily in the strong defense of one and the outright dismissal (almost with prejudice) of the other. On one hand there is a poster saying he hears something *possibly* in addition to or as much more of a stretch of the facts in place of that flute line. For the record, I think it is flutes, but one thing I'll tip my hat to Mr. Moseley for is getting me to listen closer to the tracks in question, to listen with a different focus and perspective, and try to hear what he is hearing. Also, posting the video showing how vibraphone notes can be "bent" was informative - Whether or not those sounds are on the actual track, I'm sure a lot of people who bothered to watch learned something about that instrument and how it is played beyond the norm.

It reminds me of when I and "H" and others were having similar discussions about various sounds on Pet Sounds. For one, I found and posted some information about the famous "triple bellows shake", "double bellows shake", and other techniques isolated to playing the accordion which only accordion players and those who have had to write for and learn accordion (raising my hand as one) would know. As soon as that video could be seen that showed *how* that sound was made in 1966, it also answered the question what was making that sound. And it is a very specific and challenging technique which would not be common to even those familiar with the accordion.

Reminds me too of the famous WIBN guitar intro. What was it? How was it played? etc. There were discussions about that part being played on a detuned 12-string guitar...to which I objected because not only do I play and own electric 12-string guitars but I also know that detuning a 12-string electric guitar then playing it on either the 15th or 16th fret position versus having it standard tuned and hitting the pattern on the 14th fret...just consider detuning it would be pointless and would actually do more harm to the sound than good because the intonation on those slackened strings would be shot.

Lo and behold, it turns out the part was played by Barney Kessel on that 12-string electric mandolin as pictured in the original PS Sessions booklet, plugged direct into the board as we already knew and treated to Gold Star's heavenly echo chambers.

Why was there instead a Danelectro Bellzouki shown in the L&M studio scene? Simply because a Gibson hybrid electric mandolin like Barney played on the session was not able to be found...and after Barney's family was consulted, it was clear Barney did play that Gibson mandolin on the actual date. But why the Bellzouki? I'll save that for another time and discussion lest I be accused again of derailing threads.

So what is or what isn't actually played on Pet Sounds isn't always cut and dry, despite the AFM sheets, multitrack tapes, and the rest. Some things were up for discussion and debate, and fortunately some of them like the Barney Kessel mystery did end up getting solved.

So if Mr. Moseley hears something in that track, I'll take a listen. Whether it's factual or just his perception, I'm fascinated enough by those sounds Brian and the musicians created to at least listen with a fresh set of ears, and see if anything new jumps out of the tracks. If I'm given access to a vibraphone demo that shows a relatively rare technique used to play the vibes, and one which someone says they might hear, I'll listen to the demo and the track.

It's the fun of discovery. That's just me.

Contrast that to what I still consider one of the most pathetic things I've seen in BB and BW fandom, those people declaring that the NPP album was full of autotune to the point of declaring it sucked.

If someone perceives autotune on a track or tracks that simply isn't there, or in the case of that cel phone clip autotune that wouldn't even be audible if it were there never mind it was not there, and then uses that perception to criticize the album or even bash it outright declaring that it sucks because of all the autotune or pitch correction or whatever the case however it is spun...

That is defended? Beyond that, there were no specific examples given to back up that perception followed by criticism. Absolutely no examples beyond a millisecond of digital residue that can hit anyone working with digital audio for a variety of reasons.

Moseley here at least gave specific examples, gave demos to watch, and even recorded the specific part so people listening can focus in on the line and listen for themselves.

What was perfectly acceptable and defended on one hand, declaring that NPP sucked because of all the autotune with nothing but perception (and false perceptions at that - topic for another discussion), is in this case dismissed and challenged to the point of almost saying "how dare you!" to the person hearing something different.

For the record, again, I hear flute. Always did. But thanks to M. Moseley I had a chance to go back and listen more specifically and more critically, and also got to see some interesting techniques on playing mallets described in a tutorial video I had not seen before.

I'll say it again, on one hand some folk here defended those declaring based solely on perception that NPP was full of autotune while armed with ZERO proof and no worthwhile examples, plus a total ignorance of how the individual tracks were actually recorded and mixed...yet swarm in on someone who heard something different on a PS track and was exploring possibilities and providing examples on what could have been influencing his perception on what he was hearing.

Did the session sheets or multitracks prove that Barney Kessel was playing a modified Gibson electric mandolin, or was it a case of old fashioned detective work and talking to people close to those involved to get the answer? Obviously, it was the latter...yet is only the tracks and sheets were the guide and the standard, it could suggest Barney was playing a plain old electric 12-string guitar on that date.

Seeing all sides.

[CenturyDeprived]

Yeah that's it - I've always heard it as vox from the very first time I heard it in mono 20 odd years ago: 'doo doos' - to me it sounds like Carl.

I hear the da doo da doo.
it's called a snare drum 

No, I'm not talking about the snare.
Between 1:42 and 1:50 there's a bit of musical material -- horn melody, strummed guitar, snare drum and timpani. Some other stuff as well, but those are the major instruments.
From 1:54 onwards, that musical material repeats, but with the addition of the strings, and with an additional countermelody -- a countermelody that isn't on the mix without strings, as I said -- and the snare drum clearly *is* on that mix. *That countermelody* is what we're talking about. It sounds to some of us like there might be a vocal part in the mix there.
Perhaps rather than assuming other people are so stupid they don't know what a drum is, you might try paying attention to what's being said.

Mike Moseley, I'm trying to hear what you're hearing, I'm a bit confused by the exact timecode that you are referring to. Which timecode in the song?

[mike moseley]

now THAT's a post  

(and just to summarise:  

I think I can hear a voice but happily accept it could be my brain tricking me

I can't hear any flute and BOY have I tried - it could be a flute though, just embedded in a way I've never come across before

I can hear a presence which feels like vibes and so can a very experienced engineer/producer/string arranger friend of mine - he also can't hear any flute on the part

I'm not arguing for the sake of it - I want to know what the sound is and I know session logs aren't 100% reliable)

I see a comparison between the two issues, and primarily in the strong defense of one and the outright dismissal (almost with prejudice) of the other. On one hand there is a poster saying he hears something *possibly* in addition to or as much more of a stretch of the facts in place of that flute line. For the record, I think it is flutes, but one thing I'll tip my hat to Mr. Moseley for is getting me to listen closer to the tracks in question, to listen with a different focus and perspective, and try to hear what he is hearing. Also, posting the video showing how vibraphone notes can be "bent" was informative - Whether or not those sounds are on the actual track, I'm sure a lot of people who bothered to watch learned something about that instrument and how it is played beyond the norm.

It reminds me of when I and "H" and others were having similar discussions about various sounds on Pet Sounds. For one, I found and posted some information about the famous "triple bellows shake", "double bellows shake", and other techniques isolated to playing the accordion which only accordion players and those who have had to write for and learn accordion (raising my hand as one) would know. As soon as that video could be seen that showed *how* that sound was made in 1966, it also answered the question what was making that sound. And it is a very specific and challenging technique which would not be common to even those familiar with the accordion.

Reminds me too of the famous WIBN guitar intro. What was it? How was it played? etc. There were discussions about that part being played on a detuned 12-string guitar...to which I objected because not only do I play and own electric 12-string guitars but I also know that detuning a 12-string electric guitar then playing it on either the 15th or 16th fret position versus having it standard tuned and hitting the pattern on the 14th fret...just consider detuning it would be pointless and would actually do more harm to the sound than good because the intonation on those slackened strings would be shot.

Lo and behold, it turns out the part was played by Barney Kessel on that 12-string electric mandolin as pictured in the original PS Sessions booklet, plugged direct into the board as we already knew and treated to Gold Star's heavenly echo chambers.

Why was there instead a Danelectro Bellzouki shown in the L&M studio scene? Simply because a Gibson hybrid electric mandolin like Barney played on the session was not able to be found...and after Barney's family was consulted, it was clear Barney did play that Gibson mandolin on the actual date. But why the Bellzouki? I'll save that for another time and discussion lest I be accused again of derailing threads.

So what is or what isn't actually played on Pet Sounds isn't always cut and dry, despite the AFM sheets, multitrack tapes, and the rest. Some things were up for discussion and debate, and fortunately some of them like the Barney Kessel mystery did end up getting solved.

So if Mr. Moseley hears something in that track, I'll take a listen. Whether it's factual or just his perception, I'm fascinated enough by those sounds Brian and the musicians created to at least listen with a fresh set of ears, and see if anything new jumps out of the tracks. If I'm given access to a vibraphone demo that shows a relatively rare technique used to play the vibes, and one which someone says they might hear, I'll listen to the demo and the track.

It's the fun of discovery. That's just me.

Contrast that to what I still consider one of the most pathetic things I've seen in BB and BW fandom, those people declaring that the NPP album was full of autotune to the point of declaring it sucked.

If someone perceives autotune on a track or tracks that simply isn't there, or in the case of that cel phone clip autotune that wouldn't even be audible if it were there never mind it was not there, and then uses that perception to criticize the album or even bash it outright declaring that it sucks because of all the autotune or pitch correction or whatever the case however it is spun...

That is defended? Beyond that, there were no specific examples given to back up that perception followed by criticism. Absolutely no examples beyond a millisecond of digital residue that can hit anyone working with digital audio for a variety of reasons.

Moseley here at least gave specific examples, gave demos to watch, and even recorded the specific part so people listening can focus in on the line and listen for themselves.

What was perfectly acceptable and defended on one hand, declaring that NPP sucked because of all the autotune with nothing but perception (and false perceptions at that - topic for another discussion), is in this case dismissed and challenged to the point of almost saying "how dare you!" to the person hearing something different.

For the record, again, I hear flute. Always did. But thanks to M. Moseley I had a chance to go back and listen more specifically and more critically, and also got to see some interesting techniques on playing mallets described in a tutorial video I had not seen before.

I'll say it again, on one hand some folk here defended those declaring based solely on perception that NPP was full of autotune while armed with ZERO proof and no worthwhile examples, plus a total ignorance of how the individual tracks were actually recorded and mixed...yet swarm in on someone who heard something different on a PS track and was exploring possibilities and providing examples on what could have been influencing his perception on what he was hearing.

Did the session sheets or multitracks prove that Barney Kessel was playing a modified Gibson electric mandolin, or was it a case of old fashioned detective work and talking to people close to those involved to get the answer? Obviously, it was the latter...yet is only the tracks and sheets were the guide and the standard, it could suggest Barney was playing a plain old electric 12-string guitar on that date.

Seeing all sides.

[mike moseley]

Hi

https://soundcloud.com/spooky-music

'lets go'

I programmed it in a few mins - pretty rough but close enough to show people which part I mean

Yeah that's it - I've always heard it as vox from the very first time I heard it in mono 20 odd years ago: 'doo doos' - to me it sounds like Carl.

I hear the da doo da doo.
it's called a snare drum 

No, I'm not talking about the snare.
Between 1:42 and 1:50 there's a bit of musical material -- horn melody, strummed guitar, snare drum and timpani. Some other stuff as well, but those are the major instruments.
From 1:54 onwards, that musical material repeats, but with the addition of the strings, and with an additional countermelody -- a countermelody that isn't on the mix without strings, as I said -- and the snare drum clearly *is* on that mix. *That countermelody* is what we're talking about. It sounds to some of us like there might be a vocal part in the mix there.
Perhaps rather than assuming other people are so stupid they don't know what a drum is, you might try paying attention to what's being said.

Mike Moseley, I'm trying to hear what you're hearing, I'm a bit confused by the exact timecode that you are referring to. Which timecode in the song?

[Terry]

I don't hear vibes on the overdubbed 4th track...or vocals for that matter. If I were to guess, it would be a mix of viola and maybe a flute playing in unison.

[CenturyDeprived]

Hi

https://soundcloud.com/spooky-music

'lets go'

I programmed it in a few mins - pretty rough but close enough to show people which part I mean

Yeah that's it - I've always heard it as vox from the very first time I heard it in mono 20 odd years ago: 'doo doos' - to me it sounds like Carl.

I hear the da doo da doo.
it's called a snare drum 

No, I'm not talking about the snare.
Between 1:42 and 1:50 there's a bit of musical material -- horn melody, strummed guitar, snare drum and timpani. Some other stuff as well, but those are the major instruments.
From 1:54 onwards, that musical material repeats, but with the addition of the strings, and with an additional countermelody -- a countermelody that isn't on the mix without strings, as I said -- and the snare drum clearly *is* on that mix. *That countermelody* is what we're talking about. It sounds to some of us like there might be a vocal part in the mix there.
Perhaps rather than assuming other people are so stupid they don't know what a drum is, you might try paying attention to what's being said.

Mike Moseley, I'm trying to hear what you're hearing, I'm a bit confused by the exact timecode that you are referring to. Which timecode in the song?

Got it. Well I really don't think there's any vocals there. I do, however, think that this melody of which you speak sounds like the sort of beautiful melody that Brian would have turned into a wordless vocal part (or doubled with a wordless vocal part) if he had ever recorded vocals on the song.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Incidentally--I have heard the overdub by itself.  

Mike, have you ever learned to play the flute and then rented an alto flute and learned to play that specifically so you could play Beach Boys parts?  I have.

Also, the name people are calling me isn't my name anymore so please stop calling me it, thanks.

[18thofMay]

Sounds like what its , bleed.

[mike moseley]

Very interesting - so what's playing on that OD section - flute and..?

And do you think the effect I'm hearing is live bleed at the session or happening between the multis..?

Incidentally--I have heard the overdub by itself.  

Mike, have you ever learned to play the flute and then rented an alto flute and learned to play that specifically so you could play Beach Boys parts?  I have.

Also, the name people are calling me isn't my name anymore so please stop calling me it, thanks.

[bringahorseinhere?]

I would in my opinion    say it's the bleed we are hearing.  remember everyone was in close proximity during the sessions,
no isolation booths or even acoustic screening between anybody.  my hunch from the beginning was the combination of instruments
causing a 'overtone' sound if you will that we describe as 'bleed' which changes the way other instruments sound on adjacent microphones.
a sound you can't achieve by isolation. this is why Brian's, Spector's records have that 'spring' to them that cannot be reproduced in those original
recordings.  mic placement also contributes so much to the 'bleed' of other instruments.  whether this was intentional or not, this is why
we are here discussing it. 

[mike moseley]

yeah a few people think bleed - so it would be flute playing the melody and possibly several other instruments bleeding in..?

or as I suggested further up could be something thats not being played ringing..?  like a piano or whatever not being played but near a hot mic..?

I would in my opinion    say it's the bleed we are hearing.  remember everyone was in close proximity during the sessions,
no isolation booths or even acoustic screening between anybody.  my hunch from the beginning was the combination of instruments
causing a 'overtone' sound if you will that we describe as 'bleed' which changes the way other instruments sound on adjacent microphones.
a sound you can't achieve by isolation. this is why Brian's, Spector's records have that 'spring' to them that cannot be reproduced in those original
recordings.  mic placement also contributes so much to the 'bleed' of other instruments.  whether this was intentional or not, this is why
we are here discussing it. 

[mike moseley]

No I haven't rented a flute

Is there no chance there's doubling..?  I wish we could all hear the OD.  Is it available anywhere - not on the PS box..?

Incidentally--I have heard the overdub by itself.  

Mike, have you ever learned to play the flute and then rented an alto flute and learned to play that specifically so you could play Beach Boys parts?  I have.

Also, the name people are calling me isn't my name anymore so please stop calling me it, thanks.

[bringahorseinhere?]

yeah a few people think bleed - so it would be flute playing the melody and possibly several other instruments bleeding in..?

or as I suggested further up could be something thats not being played ringing..?  like a piano or whatever not being played but near a hot mic..?

I would in my opinion    say it's the bleed we are hearing.  remember everyone was in close proximity during the sessions,
no isolation booths or even acoustic screening between anybody.  my hunch from the beginning was the combination of instruments
causing a 'overtone' sound if you will that we describe as 'bleed' which changes the way other instruments sound on adjacent microphones.
a sound you can't achieve by isolation. this is why Brian's, Spector's records have that 'spring' to them that cannot be reproduced in those original
recordings.  mic placement also contributes so much to the 'bleed' of other instruments.  whether this was intentional or not, this is why
we are here discussing it.  

yeah Mike, I would think that's probably what your hearing, and I hear after hearing the mono and stereo versions of the song and can see exactly where you are coming from.  exactly about the ringing, and the whether those instruments are causing phase issues that are pleasant to our ears? don't know.
I don't think it's voices, but a blend of overtones of instruments, and instruments reaching microphone points at different times in the room, maybe causing some new sound that is present. but, on a serious note, I'm not against you, as you are hearing what you are hearing.  but my impression is the instruments that we are aware of, mic placement, 'spill' onto other mics, and the room sonics all blending in to create that 'background' vox sound. but who knows?
that's my serious opinion on this thread.  
These guys in the day also balanced the 'bleed', either by limitation or as Brian said one time, you put 'one instrument with another to make one sound'.  
in this interview, he was mainly talking about an organ and guitar (bass, I suspect), but along those lines, like Spector, Brian learned how 'bleed' can become a part of 'the sound'.  these sounds sometimes can't be reproduced unless the conditions are correct.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJ8G99sV-ww

 

[mike moseley]

Cheers BAHIH - if I had my PS box set here I could listen to the mono and stereo and I'm sure I'd learn something, however they're back home.

I would love love love to hear the ODs on their own.

yeah a few people think bleed - so it would be flute playing the melody and possibly several other instruments bleeding in..?

or as I suggested further up could be something thats not being played ringing..?  like a piano or whatever not being played but near a hot mic..?

I would in my opinion    say it's the bleed we are hearing.  remember everyone was in close proximity during the sessions,
no isolation booths or even acoustic screening between anybody.  my hunch from the beginning was the combination of instruments
causing a 'overtone' sound if you will that we describe as 'bleed' which changes the way other instruments sound on adjacent microphones.
a sound you can't achieve by isolation. this is why Brian's, Spector's records have that 'spring' to them that cannot be reproduced in those original
recordings.  mic placement also contributes so much to the 'bleed' of other instruments.  whether this was intentional or not, this is why
we are here discussing it.  

yeah Mike, I would think that's probably what your hearing, and I hear after hearing the mono and stereo versions of the song and can see exactly where you are coming from.  exactly about the ringing, and the whether those instruments are causing phase issues that are pleasant to our ears? don't know.
I don't think it's voices, but a blend of overtones of instruments, and instruments reaching microphone points at different times in the room, maybe causing some new sound that is present. but, on a serious note, I'm not against you, as you are hearing what you are hearing.  but my impression is the instruments that we are aware of, mic placement, 'spill' onto other mics, and the room sonics all blending in to create that 'background' vox sound. but who knows?
that's my serious opinion on this thread.  
These guys in the day also balanced the 'bleed', either by limitation or as Brian said one time, you put 'one instrument with another to make one sound'.  
in this interview, he was mainly talking about an organ and guitar (bass, I suspect), but along those lines, like Spector, Brian learned how 'bleed' can become a part of 'the sound'.  these sounds sometimes can't be reproduced unless the conditions are correct.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJ8G99sV-ww

 

[bringahorseinhere?]

hey man, after this discussion and dissection of the track, hearing the OD"s, wouldn't we all  

[c-man]

Delete.

[c-man]

Very interesting - so what's playing on that OD section - flute and..?

And do you think the effect I'm hearing is live bleed at the session or happening between the multis..?

Incidentally--I have heard the overdub by itself.  

Mike, have you ever learned to play the flute and then rented an alto flute and learned to play that specifically so you could play Beach Boys parts?  I have.

Also, the name people are calling me isn't my name anymore so please stop calling me it, thanks.

Again, Mike, the overub on LGAFA consists of the string section (8 violins, 2 violas, 2 cellos), one flute (possibly alto flute), and one oboe. The oboe is definitely playing a line along with the horn section (the horn section was recorded the day before as part of the basic track, which was actually spread across three tracks at the time of recording). To my ears, the mystery sound could be either violas (which sometimes sound very un-string like: examples would be The Beatles' "Hello Goodbye" and I think "Lovely Rita") OR alto flute, possibly with fast attack on the compression to accentuate the percussive, plosive "d" sound at the top of the line. But no vibes. Definitely no vibes.

For years, I thought there was a backing vocal on "Caroline, No", but I now know it's an alto sax. Incidentally, there are tenor flutes and bass flutes on THAT song...and alto flutes on "God Only Knows" - Brian loved using different kinds of flutes by this point!. I also used to think that the overdubbed sound playing behind the marimbas on the intro to "Holiday" from SMiLE was strings - but know I know it was a flute section. Tom Petty and Carl Wilson are both on record saying the plucked intro to "Wouldn't It Be Nice" was a harp (Carl flat out stated it, whereas Petty alluded to it when discussing the sounds of Pet Sounds, but it was clear to me that he was speaking of that song). I can give other examples of professional musicians and music experts mis-identifying sounds - no one's ears are perfect, and some instruments can masquerade as others (the faux baritone sax solo on "I Know There's An Answer", which is really a bass harmonica, comes to mind).

[mike moseley]

Thanks very much - very interesting.  Yeah someone else said its possibly strings playing it but H says its definitely flute.

Also I'm sure I can hear vibes in that end section but could just be on the pad as in the start of the tune..?  Or it could be artifacts - isn't the pad without the ODs on the PS box set..?

I'm not insisting any of this its just what I can hear.

Very interesting - so what's playing on that OD section - flute and..?

And do you think the effect I'm hearing is live bleed at the session or happening between the multis..?

Incidentally--I have heard the overdub by itself.  

Mike, have you ever learned to play the flute and then rented an alto flute and learned to play that specifically so you could play Beach Boys parts?  I have.

Also, the name people are calling me isn't my name anymore so please stop calling me it, thanks.

Again, Mike, the overub on LGAFA consists of the string section (8 violins, 2 violas, 2 cellos), one flute (possibly alto flute), and one oboe. The oboe is definitely playing a line along with the horn section (the horn section was recorded the day before as part of the basic track, which was actually spread across three tracks at the time of recording). To my ears, the mystery sound could be either violas (which sometimes sound very un-string like: examples would be The Beatles' "Hello Goodbye" and I think "Lovely Rita") OR alto flute, possibly with fast attack on the compression to accentuate the percussive, plosive "d" sound at the top of the line. But no vibes. Definitely no vibes.

For years, I thought there was a backing vocal on "Caroline, No", but I now know it's an alto sax. Incidentally, there are tenor flutes and bass flutes on THAT song...and alto flutes on "God Only Knows" - Brian loved using different kinds of flutes by this point!. I also used to think that the overdubbed sound playing behind the marimbas on the intro to "Holiday" from SMiLE was strings - but know I know it was a flute section. Tom Petty and Carl Wilson are both on record saying the plucked intro to "Wouldn't It Be Nice" was a harp (Carl flat out stated it, whereas Petty alluded to it when discussing the sounds of Pet Sounds, but it was clear to me that he was speaking of that song). I can give other examples of professional musicians and music experts mis-identifying sounds - no one's ears are perfect, and some instruments can masquerade as others (the faux baritone sax solo on "I Know There's An Answer", which is really a bass harmonica, comes to mind).

[Andrew G. Doe]

You may hear vibes. That doesn't alter the fact that they're simply not there.

[mike moseley]

Not on the pad/backing track..?  I haven't got my box set so I can't check - if you've checked the backing track and they aren't there then just say so.

I'm not saying I can hear them play a melody there.

You may hear vibes. That doesn't alter the fact that they're simply not there.