What is Wrong with Beach Boys Fans?

[Douchepool]

All of that baloney in one OP and all for a permaban. Survival of the smartest. OP's view is myopic as hell and beyond exaggerated.

[GhostyTMRS]

I think the reason you see the vociferousness of these attacks is because of how much people really care. Somewhere along the line this band struck a deep chord with us and we all think of the Beach Boys as our own and nobody better f*** with 'em. Lest of all another fan. I'm absolutely sure that many people on this board care more about this than Brian or Mike do.

I think Mike likes to tour and be his own boss of his own band. And Brian likes to create beautiful music and be left alone but tours because it keeps him healthy and motivated. Once upon a time, both these needs were satisfied by The Beach Boys. Now...for one group it's an asset and the other it's an annoyance. And each fan falls somewhere in between the two camps. The difference is, each actual camp has at least a begrudging respect for the other...except a lot of the fans more towards their one preferred side who make it personal or take their fanboy/apologism to absurd levels.

Somewhere in the middle are people like CenturyDeprived who are just raising the legitimate truth: Brian's f***ed up but we forgive him because he's suffered more than enough to atone for any sins he's committed and comes off like a chill guy in interviews. Mike f***ed up and most don't forgive him because he has never to our knowledge apologized or admitted any regret and continues to put his foot in his mouth. But even stating that simple observation is considered an attack by the guys in his camp. That's the issue. That's why people like OP are so fed up. And it's not even a situation where both sides are at fault. It's one where the one side digs its own grave and we are haters for politely trying to point it out.

I've thought about this. During the January 1969 sessions for what would have been the Get Back album John Lennon told George Harrison "I'm loathe to play any of your songs" to his face. The songs George was trying to demo to the group include future classics like "All Things Must Pass" and "Isn't it a Pity". Lennon also couldn't be bothered to play on George's songs during this period. These incidents are discussed among Beatles fans and most agree in hindsight that John was in the wrong...but I never see fans actively harp on these incidents (and there are plenty more like them in the Beatles history). Usually the attitude is "Well, what do you want? They've known each other since they were kids and they were just young guys in their 20's, and it's not like they hated each other".

In Beach Boys fandom, there's a certain segment who just fixate on similar issues. I tend to have the Beatle fan approach to it which is "So what? They were basically kids. What group doesn't argue or not see to eye to eye. Big deal." I think there tends to be this perception of Brian that he was just so fragile that any negativity hurled his way caused him to whither on the vine. That doesn't seem to be supported by what we hear on most of the session material. He seems pretty in command to me. All of the guys are giving him crap and he gives it right back. But even going back to the garage tapes bootleg, the Beach Boys talk to each other like high school athletes in a locker room, Brian included. Is it any wonder? They basically were.  

[CenturyDeprived]

Here's one thing that makes threads continue on and on, and what is so blatantly a cause of friction... when a poster makes a legit point, asks a question of another poster (in the context of an ongoing, back-and-forth "debate" or discussion), and the other poster just drops out of sight and refuses to acknowledge a point has been made, or refuses to say anything in response because they know they are going to come off like they are grasping at straws. They are so afraid to say something critical of one band member that they just think avoiding replying is a quick fix to that conundrum, when in reality it's plainly obvious to the vast majority of people that they have been outed as having faulty logic on the discussion at hand. Why else would someone stop replying to a polite query? I'm not talking about someone being too busy to reply and leaving the board for awhile, either.

And then some people jump to the defense saying "so-and-so poster doesn't have to reply to anything they don't want to", as though that smoke and mirrors approach holds any water whatsoever. If some people could just admit that there's at least *some* legitimacy to another poster's logic (as I have certainly done many times to people with largely different overall viewpoints to myself), there'd be a whole lot less arguing. It's extremism, plain and simple, and it should be labeled as nothing but.

Examples of posters running for the hills in the middle of a discussion within a thread:

I don't remember anybody ever suggesting the Boys didn't have issues, it was a band, they have told their very few issues with the work. It's getting inflated into conflict and putting down and bullying etc. that some of us think is a step too far. Actually some of their issues were with someone else's lyrics or being expected to do things or things in a way they found humiliating, not Brian's music. It is on tape that they did do even that which they have said they were bothered by or questioned.

We can take anybody's opinion about the Boys before we can accept the Boys' own words about themselves. Even Anderle said the most antagonistic situation was not antagonistic, they were very close, a great deal of love between all the fellas.

What would someone have to do in a band for you to say that they did inflict some emotional bullying?

Well, it certainly wouldn't be for having a lot of love and doing my job to the best of my ability while or in spite of offering a very few constructive suggestions or having a few questions or qualms  or embarrassments.

Ok, that's what you think *wouldn't* constitute it. My question is in your eyes, what *would*?

Cam - any response to this question?

Tumbleweeds blow by...

SJS, voice of the Silent Majority, Keeper of the Formula. It's good BW didn't pay attention to such mean-spirited career advice, "Heroes and Villains" alone was worth it!

 I like how he seems to think BW underachieved somehow, that having all of those hits, changing the face of pop music, influencing generations, bringing joy and hope to mopey goofballs dealing with breakups by ingesting Pet Sounds, AND a bunch of diverse experiments and different styles wasn't enough. He should somehow be having #1 singles in his 70s too. I wonder if Mike Love should be held to those standards too, I mean he certainly kept with the formula and despite Queen Latifah's help, Pisces Brothers didn't burn up the charts or make much of an impact on anyone.

Yep, what a shame that "God Only Knows" proved to be such a dismal failure in the long run...  That certainly f**ked with the formula.  This is all so absurd.  Surf music was hardly hip or selling in the later 60's or 70's.  I was there and I was a fan.  We were all looking for something more interesting as far as musical concepts were concerned.  We didn't stop loving those gorgeous compositions, harmonies, nor productions.  But we wanted something more thought-provoking and quite a few of us were growing with Brian.  Describing Brian's actions in response to an awareness of this as what caused the BBs decline in sales is certainly re-writing history.  I seriously doubt "Shut Down Vol III" would have sold any better...in fact...  

What really undermined the band? Or who? If the record company under promoted the albums, who's the problem?

Yes, it is absurd. But not all of the music was ever painted with a surf, car or girl brush. It was more diverse from the outset.  There is something on each album that is thought provoking and profound.  They didn't become gorgeous become on Pet Sounds.  They were evolving all along.

The hate here creates imbalance and discord.  

I don't think anybody doesn't blame the record company for underproduction being part of the problem. But it wasn't the whole problem.  And yes, Brian was evolving all along, until he evolved too far for some, a quantum leap beyond what some people around him could comprehend, but what future generations would come to appreciate deeply... and that's when the pushback took hold more than ever before.

The discussion here is not a matter of hate, or at least not for me. I don't hate any member of this band. But posters who are too hardline into defending the "formula" quote/sentiment need to give a little, and realize that in hindsight the sentiment (or quote, if it was actually said) may have been short-sighted. Just maybe a little.

CD - today I was shocked reading what chicanery Capitol was up to in 1967, releasing minor work, 2 years post release, in the UK, which picked up the huge support that fell by the wayside in the States.  Apparently others weren't.

Those facts are not unimportant and I guess the law would call it "exculpatory" in nature.  Meaning that it would tend to show someone wasn't guilty.  That would be the band members. It should be persuasive. But never reaches a faction that is disinclined to consider alternatives. Or do a little research, instead of just running their mouths. A lot of the posters have been to college (not a requirement, of course) so why not "raise the bar?"

It was unreasonable of Capitol, and clearly didn't appreciate the "gorgeous" work cited above. As was a Best of Vol. 1 only eight weeks post Pet Sounds. They were already conspiring at the record company to "milk the early work," to the detriment of the later work.

This isn't a game of win or lose.  We all lose with this divisiveness.

No, it isn't a game of win or lose. And I'm not trying to be divisive, just realistic. It similarly helps no cause when one side refuses to give an inch - that is the most divisive action of all that anyone could take in this. You can bet your bottom dollar that if some more public responsibility had been taken by Mike for things like this, even just a little bit more in order to recognize inadvertent pain that may have been caused, that there would be somewhat less divisiveness about him (maybe quite a bit less), and in overall discussion about the band in general. It wouldn't be a magical cure-all for his exaggerated reputation, but it would have helped, and if it suddenly unexpectedly happens tomorrow (not holding my breath), it would still help some, and surely you must know there's some truth to this.

Funny how when a point is made, some posters just stop responding.

Tumbleweeds blow by yet again. To admit there's a point that has been made is like pulling teeth, and I simply do not know why. A poster simply "not wanting" to reply is simply a nonsense reason for this. The real reason is that to take on the extreme viewpoints that some individuals have means that HAVE to deny certain truths.

[Mike's Beard]

I respond to any query put towards me. If I do stop answering, it will be because I've finally reached the point where I can't bear to think about Mike Love or Brian Wilson one second longer.

[J.G. Dev]

Hey Mikesbeard...."here's to swimming with bow legged women" 

[Mike's Beard]

"these wealthy college kids don't have the education to admit when they're wrong" 

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I think the reason you see the vociferousness of these attacks is because of how much people really care. Somewhere along the line this band struck a deep chord with us and we all think of the Beach Boys as our own and nobody better f*** with 'em. Lest of all another fan. I'm absolutely sure that many people on this board care more about this than Brian or Mike do.

I think Mike likes to tour and be his own boss of his own band. And Brian likes to create beautiful music and be left alone but tours because it keeps him healthy and motivated. Once upon a time, both these needs were satisfied by The Beach Boys. Now...for one group it's an asset and the other it's an annoyance. And each fan falls somewhere in between the two camps. The difference is, each actual camp has at least a begrudging respect for the other...except a lot of the fans more towards their one preferred side who make it personal or take their fanboy/apologism to absurd levels.

Somewhere in the middle are people like CenturyDeprived who are just raising the legitimate truth: Brian's f***ed up but we forgive him because he's suffered more than enough to atone for any sins he's committed and comes off like a chill guy in interviews. Mike f***ed up and most don't forgive him because he has never to our knowledge apologized or admitted any regret and continues to put his foot in his mouth. But even stating that simple observation is considered an attack by the guys in his camp. That's the issue. That's why people like OP are so fed up. And it's not even a situation where both sides are at fault. It's one where the one side digs its own grave and we are haters for politely trying to point it out.

I've thought about this. During the January 1969 sessions for what would have been the Get Back album John Lennon told George Harrison "I'm loathe to play any of your songs" to his face. The songs George was trying to demo to the group include future classics like "All Things Must Pass" and "Isn't it a Pity". Lennon also couldn't be bothered to play on George's songs during this period. These incidents are discussed among Beatles fans and most agree in hindsight that John was in the wrong...but I never see fans actively harp on these incidents (and there are plenty more like them in the Beatles history). Usually the attitude is "Well, what do you want? They've known each other since they were kids and they were just young guys in their 20's, and it's not like they hated each other".

In Beach Boys fandom, there's a certain segment who just fixate on similar issues. I tend to have the Beatle fan approach to it which is "So what? They were basically kids. What group doesn't argue or not see to eye to eye. Big deal." I think there tends to be this perception of Brian that he was just so fragile that any negativity hurled his way caused him to whither on the vine. That doesn't seem to be supported by what we hear on most of the session material. He seems pretty in command to me. All of the guys are giving him crap and he gives it right back. But even going back to the garage tapes bootleg, the Beach Boys talk to each other like high school athletes in a locker room, Brian included. Is it any wonder? They basically were.  

Fair point. But again, the difference is this is still ungoing. If it were just bitching about SMiLE or something, I'd agree it's over and done, let it go. But when Mike needlessly mentions Brian's drug abuse in EVERY interview, as well as taking various other pot-shots at him, it shows this is an ungoing problem and worth mentioning. It's not like the Beatles were everything is mostly cool or at least tactful between members and all problems are in the past. Brian is either purposefully being the bigger man and turning the other cheek or is shielded from Mike's abrasive comments. In any case, his non-reaction is not indicitive of approval I don't think. And it doesn't excuse Mike.

[Pretty Funky]

The original poster's account is banned indefinitely due to personal attacks in the post.

We haven't seen a rant like this since the R&R Hall of Fame in 88!

[The Shift]

The original poster's account is banned indefinitely due to personal attacks in the post.

We haven't seen a rant like this since the R&R Hall of Fame in 88!

But who was the OP anyway? Three posts in as many months yet apparently a fan since the early days? Current or former board member using a fresh ID to stir sh*t is my bet…

[GhostyTMRS]

I think the reason you see the vociferousness of these attacks is because of how much people really care. Somewhere along the line this band struck a deep chord with us and we all think of the Beach Boys as our own and nobody better f*** with 'em. Lest of all another fan. I'm absolutely sure that many people on this board care more about this than Brian or Mike do.

I think Mike likes to tour and be his own boss of his own band. And Brian likes to create beautiful music and be left alone but tours because it keeps him healthy and motivated. Once upon a time, both these needs were satisfied by The Beach Boys. Now...for one group it's an asset and the other it's an annoyance. And each fan falls somewhere in between the two camps. The difference is, each actual camp has at least a begrudging respect for the other...except a lot of the fans more towards their one preferred side who make it personal or take their fanboy/apologism to absurd levels.

Somewhere in the middle are people like CenturyDeprived who are just raising the legitimate truth: Brian's f***ed up but we forgive him because he's suffered more than enough to atone for any sins he's committed and comes off like a chill guy in interviews. Mike f***ed up and most don't forgive him because he has never to our knowledge apologized or admitted any regret and continues to put his foot in his mouth. But even stating that simple observation is considered an attack by the guys in his camp. That's the issue. That's why people like OP are so fed up. And it's not even a situation where both sides are at fault. It's one where the one side digs its own grave and we are haters for politely trying to point it out.

I've thought about this. During the January 1969 sessions for what would have been the Get Back album John Lennon told George Harrison "I'm loathe to play any of your songs" to his face. The songs George was trying to demo to the group include future classics like "All Things Must Pass" and "Isn't it a Pity". Lennon also couldn't be bothered to play on George's songs during this period. These incidents are discussed among Beatles fans and most agree in hindsight that John was in the wrong...but I never see fans actively harp on these incidents (and there are plenty more like them in the Beatles history). Usually the attitude is "Well, what do you want? They've known each other since they were kids and they were just young guys in their 20's, and it's not like they hated each other".

In Beach Boys fandom, there's a certain segment who just fixate on similar issues. I tend to have the Beatle fan approach to it which is "So what? They were basically kids. What group doesn't argue or not see to eye to eye. Big deal." I think there tends to be this perception of Brian that he was just so fragile that any negativity hurled his way caused him to whither on the vine. That doesn't seem to be supported by what we hear on most of the session material. He seems pretty in command to me. All of the guys are giving him crap and he gives it right back. But even going back to the garage tapes bootleg, the Beach Boys talk to each other like high school athletes in a locker room, Brian included. Is it any wonder? They basically were.  

Fair point. But again, the difference is this is still ungoing. If it were just bitching about SMiLE or something, I'd agree it's over and done, let it go. But when Mike needlessly mentions Brian's drug abuse in EVERY interview, as well as taking various other pot-shots at him, it shows this is an ungoing problem and worth mentioning. It's not like the Beatles were everything is mostly cool or at least tactful between members and all problems are in the past. Brian is either purposefully being the bigger man and turning the other cheek or is shielded from Mike's abrasive comments. In any case, his non-reaction is not indicitive of approval I don't think. And it doesn't excuse Mike.

Not to bring it back to The Beatles again, but recently McCartney gave an interview where he went off on his "I was just as important as John" speech. He was defending himself against attacks that surely must've come from his own imagination. Okay, Yoko lobs a bomb at him once in a while, but I hang around a LOT of Beatle-ish places on the web and I don't see this overwhelming negativity that Paul keeps grousing about (alright...there's some, but not much). There's a good chance he may not even be aware of how petty this makes him look. Pete Townsend even called him out on it, but he keeps doing it.

So basically, when it comes to Mike or Paul or "insert-your-rock-star" here, who knows what kind of information they're being fed or how they perceive things? I just choose to focus on the very best in these guys. I might be accused of being a pollyanna but so be it. Brian and Mike are generally pretty positive about each other. That's good enough for me.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

The original poster's account is banned indefinitely due to personal attacks in the post.

We haven't seen a rant like this since the R&R Hall of Fame in 88!

And Andy Doe (in the Bob Dylan role) says ""I want to thank Nathan R. Jessup for not mentioning me".

[CenturyDeprived]

I respond to any query put towards me. If I do stop answering, it will be because I've finally reached the point where I can't bear to think about Mike Love or Brian Wilson one second longer.

But that doesn't really hold any water for posters who clearly can continue to think, post, and debate about all things Mike and Brian  in the same exact thread, but simply duck out on a particular question aimed at them which they don't "like".

What possible reason for repeatedly dodging a question can there be but that the dodgers know they are in a position where they can't defend what they're saying, but they have some allergic reaction to admitting the other "side" has even a tiny bit of a point? Don't you admit that this is often because the person is grasping at straws?  

[Mike's Beard]

You would have to ask them. Maybe they tire of arguing the same old BS. How often do we get to discuss the music these days on here?

[Empire Of Love]

You would have to ask them. Maybe they tire of arguing the same old BS. How often do we get to discuss the music these days on here?

As often as you like. Start a thread and talk about the music. There's no one stopping you. I've no idea why you continually visit threads that you don't like and make comments.  Personally I think it would be quite one dimensional if all that we talked about was the music.

I'm surprised you don't bitch more often about how often Mike keeps bringing up the same old things but for some reason you want to continue to bitch about posters bringing up the same old things. Strange.

EoL

[drbeachboy]

You would have to ask them. Maybe they tire of arguing the same old BS. How often do we get to discuss the music these days on here?

That would be me. When I get tired I just give up. I think they call it "Beating a Dead Horse" syndrome. Whenever I get to that point I announce it so folks know there will be no more replies from me on the subject.

[Empire Of Love]

You would have to ask them. Maybe they tire of arguing the same old BS. How often do we get to discuss the music these days on here?

That would be me. When I get tired I just give up. I think they call it "Beating a Dead Horse" syndrome. Whenever I get to that point I announce it so folks know there will be no more replies from me on the subject.

I don't get it, you get tired of what? CD stated that questions are continually being dodged. Do you mean you're getting tired of dodging questions? Seriously, this is just another case of dodging.   Now people are dodging about dodging.

EoL

[drbeachboy]

You would have to ask them. Maybe they tire of arguing the same old BS. How often do we get to discuss the music these days on here?

As often as you like. Start a thread and talk about the music. There's no one stopping you. I've no idea why you continually visit threads that you don't like and make comments.  Personally I think it would be quite one dimensional if all that we talked about was the music.

I'm surprised you don't bitch more often about how often Mike keeps bringing up the same old things but for some reason you want to continue to bitch about posters bringing up the same old things. Strange.

EoL

For me, the posters are just plain more annoying than reading what Mike says. We tend not to give it a rest. We go on, stay on it, until someone gets pissed off and flies off the handle. I hate getting in pissing matches where nothing we say does anything to change the outcome. I'm on a mission to try an stay mellow in here. I don't need my blood pressure any higher than it already is.

[drbeachboy]

You would have to ask them. Maybe they tire of arguing the same old BS. How often do we get to discuss the music these days on here?

That would be me. When I get tired I just give up. I think they call it "Beating a Dead Horse" syndrome. Whenever I get to that point I announce it so folks know there will be no more replies from me on the subject.

I don't get it, you get tired of what? CD stated that questions are continually being dodged. Do you mean you're getting tired of dodging questions? Seriously, this is just another case of dodging.   Now people are dodging about dodging.

EoL

I get tired of debating.

[The LEGENDARY OSD]

You would have to ask them. Maybe they tire of arguing the same old BS. How often do we get to discuss the music these days on here?

As often as you like. Start a thread and talk about the music. There's no one stopping you. I've no idea why you continually visit threads that you don't like and make comments.  Personally I think it would be quite one dimensional if all that we talked about was the music.

I'm surprised you don't bitch more often about how often Mike keeps bringing up the same old things but for some reason you want to continue to bitch about posters bringing up the same old things. Strange.

EoL

    Strange indeed. Great reply EOL!!   

[Cam Mott]

He had me at "gobshit".

[GhostyTMRS]

You would have to ask them. Maybe they tire of arguing the same old BS. How often do we get to discuss the music these days on here?

As often as you like. Start a thread and talk about the music. There's no one stopping you. I've no idea why you continually visit threads that you don't like and make comments.  Personally I think it would be quite one dimensional if all that we talked about was the music.

I'm surprised you don't bitch more often about how often Mike keeps bringing up the same old things but for some reason you want to continue to bitch about posters bringing up the same old things. Strange.

EoL

Set up a live chat. Nominate the top 10 posters and have them compete in the Beach Boys music trivia challenge.   

[CenturyDeprived]

You would have to ask them. Maybe they tire of arguing the same old BS. How often do we get to discuss the music these days on here?

As often as you like. Start a thread and talk about the music. There's no one stopping you. I've no idea why you continually visit threads that you don't like and make comments.  Personally I think it would be quite one dimensional if all that we talked about was the music.

I'm surprised you don't bitch more often about how often Mike keeps bringing up the same old things but for some reason you want to continue to bitch about posters bringing up the same old things. Strange.

EoL

For me, the posters are just plain more annoying than reading what Mike says. We tend not to give it a rest. We go on, stay on it, until someone gets pissed off and flies off the handle. I hate getting in pissing matches where nothing we say does anything to change the outcome. I'm on a mission to try an stay mellow in here. I don't need my blood pressure any higher than it already is.

People aren't tired of debating; they are dodging SPECIFIC questions, but gladly continuing in debating and spouting their views about all other sorts of very related and interconnected topics. Let's just admit that dodging questions on this board is a thing. It exists. It happens, right? And for some reason it almost always happens in a conversation where someone promoting a "pro" Mike viewpoint feels it's difficult to respond to a specific question or two.

It's this dodging that's at the heart of some (certainly not all) of the difficulties that people have when reconciling the various factions within the group itself.

The truth hurts sometimes. You can't make the truth not hurt by dodging questions.

It's quite lame. If anyone were ever watching some sort of debate about a topic, if a person debating just tried to change the subject or scurried away, it would be ridiculous.

[LeeDempsey]

What a horribly divisive thread... I agree with the Mods' decision to ban this troll for his obvious attempt at sh*t-stirring.

[bgas]

You would have to ask them. Maybe they tire of arguing the same old BS. How often do we get to discuss the music these days on here?

As often as you like. Start a thread and talk about the music. There's no one stopping you. I've no idea why you continually visit threads that you don't like and make comments.  Personally I think it would be quite one dimensional if all that we talked about was the music.

I'm surprised you don't bitch more often about how often Mike keeps bringing up the same old things but for some reason you want to continue to bitch about posters bringing up the same old things. Strange.

EoL

For me, the posters are just plain more annoying than reading what Mike says. We tend not to give it a rest. We go on, stay on it, until someone gets pissed off and flies off the handle. I hate getting in pissing matches where nothing we say does anything to change the outcome. I'm on a mission to try an stay mellow in here. I don't need my blood pressure any higher than it already is.

People aren't tired of debating; they are dodging SPECIFIC questions, but gladly continuing in debating and spouting their views about all other sorts of very related and interconnected topics. Let's just admit that dodging questions on this board is a thing. It exists. It happens, right? And for some reason it almost always happens in a conversation where someone promoting a "pro" Mike viewpoint feels it's difficult to respond to a specific question or two.

It's this dodging that's at the heart of some (certainly not all) of the difficulties that people have when reconciling the various factions within the group itself.

The truth hurts sometimes. You can't make the truth not hurt by dodging questions.

It's quite lame. If anyone were ever watching some sort of debate about a topic, if a person debating just tried to change the subject or scurried away, it would be ridiculous.

 I think you simply need to get over Cam; move on, let it go. you're never going to be happy with his answers/no answers.  Just ignore him/ don't read his posts.

   I skip posts by all the time from people I'm tired of reading for whatever reason. I wouldn't be surprised if  there are people who skip mine, and it certainly wouldn't bother me. 

[drbeachboy]

You would have to ask them. Maybe they tire of arguing the same old BS. How often do we get to discuss the music these days on here?

As often as you like. Start a thread and talk about the music. There's no one stopping you. I've no idea why you continually visit threads that you don't like and make comments.  Personally I think it would be quite one dimensional if all that we talked about was the music.

I'm surprised you don't bitch more often about how often Mike keeps bringing up the same old things but for some reason you want to continue to bitch about posters bringing up the same old things. Strange.
g
EoL

For me, the posters are just plain more annoying than reading what Mike says. We tend not to give it a rest. We go on, stay on it, until someone gets pissed off and flies off the handle. I hate getting in pissing matches where nothing we say does anything to change the outcome. I'm on a mission to try an stay mellow in here. I don't need my blood pressure any higher than it already is.

People aren't tired of debating; they are dodging SPECIFIC questions, but gladly continuing in debating and spouting their views about all other sorts of very related and interconnected topics. Let's just admit that dodging questions on this board is a thing. It exists. It happens, right? And for some reason it almost always happens in a conversation where someone promoting a "pro" Mike viewpoint feels it's difficult to respond to a specific question or two.

It's this dodging that's at the heart of some (certainly not all) of the difficulties that people have when reconciling the various factions within the group itself.

The truth hurts sometimes. You can't make the truth not hurt by dodging questions.

It's quite lame. If anyone were ever watching some sort of debate about a topic, if a person debating just tried to change the subject or scurried away, it would be ridiculous.

I was only speaking for myself. Before I came here I never took Mike's side on anything, but being a Beach Boys fan first and foremost, I hate to see any of the guys getting trashed like they do in here. Every member of the band had a role to play in their successes and their failures. While I don't mind discussing their history and their personalities, I'll be damned if I'm going to come here and argue with people about stuff that happened that cannot be changed. The best posts out of this whole exercise was getting Debbie's & Stephen's perspective about what was happening, as they were around and personally knew Brian and the guys. I learned more and received a better perspective from their comments then from all the arguing and carrying on. I honestly feel blessed that I have the music of the Beach Boys in my life. It has literally been a part of my every day living since 1964. It supplies me with joy and peace. I wish discussing them in here did the same thing.