The Smiley Smile Message Board

Hi everyone, new to the board. Have a question I've been dying to ask cuz I can't find the answer on the net anywhere!

I get the impression Brian could read music and it seems he actually wrote down the notes on paper when he was writing his songs, unlike most rock songwriters of the time (and today, for that matter). Correct me if I'm wrong!

But I'm wondering about the other Boys? Did Brian write down each of the guys' harmonies and show up at the studio and say to them, 'OK, sing this,' and they could sing the notes from reading the score Brian made for them? Or did he have to teach them each of their parts orally? Or some combination of the two?

It seems that, given the complexities of many of the harmonies they sang, they must have had some degree of musical sophistication/education, but ... maybe I'm wrong. Anyone here know anything about this?

Brian sang, or played on a piano, the vocal  parts to the Beach Boys during sessions - no sheet music.

But, there are stories of him being able to write music for his session musicians - there's a good one with David Sandler, detailing how he was hanging out with BW in his kitchen waiting for some horn players to come by and do a session (for Good Time?). Realising they don't have the parts written out, Brian does it instantly, still maintaining a conversation with Sandler, and he writes the whole horn arrangement from scratch.

Thanks!

Somewhere I saw a photo similar to this one (http://media.soundonsound.com/sos/oct04/images/smile17brianvandat.l.jpg) (probably taken at the same time as that one) where you can see Brian sitting next to Dyke Van Parks at the piano, and it looks like Brian is writing down something on the music rack on the piano (though you can't quite tell exactly). Plus, listening to his directing in the various session tapes, it's obvious Brian was musically educated.

I was just wondering about the other guys, however.

In terms of the other guys, I rather doubt any of them can read. Carl, perhaps. It's documented -- on session tapes and from their accounts -- that he taught them their parts orally, and by playing them on the piano. You can see him doing the same things with his band on the TLOS documentary,

Carl did the sheet music for the Stack-o-Tracks album, so it looks like he could read/write music and guitar charts.

Bruce and David have some formal music training, so I suspect they can read/write sheet music too.

could Denny read sheet music?

Dur. The Bruce and Dave thing totally slipped my mind. Of course, Dave went to music school after being in the group, so he probably couldn't read at the time.

As for the SoT thing, there's a difference between being able to write down a chord chart (which I would think all the guys could do to some extent) and actually notate.

second post in a row regarding something I can't attribute a source to and am only about 70% sure of, but I remember reading that some of the session musicians saying Brian would give them charts and they'd be slightly wrong notationally and they'd have to revise them.

Although in the late '60s & early '70s Dennis would rely on people like Roger Neumann, Daryl Dragon, and even Brian to help with his arrangements, he'd probably learned to do it himself by the late '70s.  The Winter/Spring 2003 ESQ Dennis Wilson special edition includes several shots of Dennis and bass player James Jamerson working in the Brother Studio control booth...the shot on page 29 shows the two of them laboring over a sheet of music script paper (granted, the pencil is in Jamerson's hand, but Dennis appears to actually be reading it).  The inner sleeve of L.A. Light credits Dennis as the string & horn arranger on "Baby Blue", and when Don Cunningham (editor of the great Add Some Music fanzine) met with him in NYC during the Boys' March '79 Radio City Music Hall run, and mentioned that "Baby Blue" was out as the flip side of "HCTN", Dennis proudly told him "I wrote every note of that".   

Maybe Ed Roach could offer some insight?

The other one I was wondering about was Al Jardine. According to Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Jardine) he played:
More often than not, when someone has a musical repertoire like that, there's a certain amount of musical sophistication, often including being able to read music. But not always. Maybe I should ask on his website (http://www.aljardine.com/contact.html)!  ;D

OK, I left a question on Al Jardine's question form on his website. Don't know if he'll respond, but it seems like a harmless question so let's hope he responds.

There is a difference between being able to read music competently, read music proficiently, and ultimately to be a professional musician who reads it like we read these words on the message board. It's important to make that distinction because there is a misunderstanding about those musicians who played on the 60's sessions, we'll narrow it down to just the Wrecking Crew for now.

There were the "readers" - I'll stick to guitars for now - those guys like Bob Bain, Tommy Tedesco, Barney Kessel and others who could read anything on a piece of sheet music they received on the music stand. It was second nature to them, and therefore these specific players got called for the *big* sessions with Hollywood soundtracks, film scores, etc where the composers and arrangers would be meticulous about notating as much as possible on the score, and with the timing of each piece they'd record.

There were the proficient readers who could read very well, but not at the level of a Bob Bain...and the anecdotes exist of these musicians who would lean over to a guy like Tommy and ask him to play a passage of notes if they couldn't decipher it, so they could hear it and play it that way. There were many of these players, I'd say it's at a reading level greater than most but just under that of those select "heavy hitters" who played on hundreds of film soundtracks.

There were the non-readers: Glen Campbell is by far the most prominent example. He did not read music like Tedesco or Bain, yet he got called again and again to play sessions because he was such a damn good instinctive player who played by ear and who could create awesome hooks on the spot, based on the chords and grooves he heard being played. he'd read a chord chart, a form chart, and then he'd work something out. Yet, notice that he didn't get the "reading" gigs, but more often played on those pop sessions where the producer was looking for a hit record, and Glen was the kind of player who could find a good hook and play it with confidence. He could add that element which the "readers" sometimes could not.

(I was reminded of this after reading a new interview with Earl Slick, whose famous calls were with Bowie and Lennon: He was in demand more for his ability to do something similar to what Glen did without needing to hand him a fully prepared sheet of music with his part written out, and which he wouldn't read anyway. I think he said he got called to play the Lennon session dates by Jack Douglas specifically to bring that element into the songs.)

I'm saying pretty confidently that Brian was at the competent or above level of reading and writing music - whatever the case, it didn't matter because whatever his level, he was able to communicate his ideas in the studio, capture them on tape with a full studio band, and look at the end results: Some of the best popular music ever recorded. If he ignored invisible bar lines, or put a note stem on backwards, or didn't know how to transcribe a 16th note syncopated rhythm for the tenor sax...it didn't matter a bit because he got the songs recorded and the musicians knew what to play.

That's really all that matters! But Brian was "trained", and he also learned as he progressed in the studio from those around him, so even if he didn;t know something in '62 he would have learned it on the job in the near future. He had to, or else Pet Sounds could not have happened.

Remember too that the "arranged by" credit is often misleading. The case with a lot of rock-pop records would be a musician would have some ideas for counter-melodies, harmonies, whatever else and want to add a string or horn section to their recording. Many times that musician would call a "professional" arranger for a working meeting where they'd go over the parts.

It amounted to that professional arranger acting as a "musical scribe", where they'd sit at a piano or whatever instrument and go over the lines and parts the musician was hearing for the song. Then, the arranger would translate those ideas into writable rhythms and parts which would go onto a score. Then, the score would be prepared and transposed so that the horn players could first read it in the proper key and second make sure it was playable in their range. So a lot of the "grunt work" of transcribing, transposing, orchestrating, etc. would actually be the job of that "musical scribe", the pro arranger, while the musician in the band who was credited would basically be the one coming up with the actual musical ideas.

There are many musicians who can come up with terrific arrangements and ideas, but not many can do what an actual professional arranger can do. Of course certain software programs have made it easier in the past 20 years...

Somewhere in the magazine-scans-thread in the medai section there's an interview with Dennis from ca. '66 and he says that they (he seemed to include himself) write down every note of the arrangements including the drum parts. In the same interview he mentions that he plays jazz patterns on the Pet Sounds album. So I don't know if he was just putting the interviewer on, because afaik Dennis only played on "That's not me"

I think some of this is a misunderstanding of the terminology being used. I don't think anyone - not Hal Blaine, not Earl Palmer, not Dennis - transcribed anything close to a full "drum part" in musical notation as they were preparing for a session. It would have been - and is - foolish to do anything of the sort, and too time consuming.

What he means is most likely a form chart, where you'd have the form of the song laid out with bars of music, lengths of the sections, rehearsal letters like A/B/C etc, numbered measures so Brian could say "take it from bar 27" and the band would be able to find that spot. If there were any unison hits with other sections of the band, if there were stop-time hits, breaks, or pauses, or if there were a specific rhythm or a specific drum fill that the composer wanted to hear at a specific time, you might notate that on the part.

When I wrote arrangements, most drummers preferred this kind of chart. If there were hits or specific fills, I'd notate them. But basically a pro drummer knows what to do and will work with a form chart...unless you're writing Zappa, Tool, etc and every damned note is specifically written out!

Those are exceptions to the rule. Dennis was not sitting there transcribing in full drum notation for what to play with the kick pattern, snare pattern, specific written fills, nor was Hal...nothing even close to that, at least IMO. Give them the form chart and turn 'em loose...for the kind of sessions we're discussing, I'd bet that's how it went down.

I have a very clear memory of Carol Kaye saying on a documentary that Brian would come in to the studio with musical parts written out, but as a school child would do it, with crotchets and quavers and such written the wrong way around.

I remember this, too: However I think what wasn't said was that these could have been (and probably were) sketches which Brian did in a hurry in order to get the ideas down on paper, which he'd take to the musicians (Steve Douglas did this job for the horns Brian would hire) to translate into actual parts which could be read.

Look at any famous artist's sketchbook version of a famous work compared to what became the finished piece. The sketches can range from average to juvenile to incompetent, but the artist would want to capture the idea very fast and then knowingly improve and refine it later.

So Brian gets an idea while eating breakfast, grabs a pencil and some score paper, jots down a few rhythms and phrases of ideas, then takes that into the studio to demonstrate what he wants the musicians to play. If the stems are backwards, so what? It's a sketchpad idea, nothing more. Someone there - up to and including the staff of someone like Bob Ross who ran the music copying service in LA which a lot of Brian's peers would use for these sessions  - would prepare the actual parts. Very rare that the producer himself did this in any case.

What is lost in the versions Hal, Carol, and others may tell is that Brian was bringing in sketches...it's part of a bigger narrative that suggests Brian and the other young producers were somehow less educated musically and more "raw" or "unskilled" than the pros...it makes for a better story to say things like the note stems were upside down without mentioning he was bringing in his artist's sketch pad full of rough ideas which he'd develop in the studio.

While we're at this, check out the "studio gallery" on the official Jan Berry site to see some handwritten music sheets by Jan, including drum parts.

http://www.jananddean-janberry.com/main/


And also this article:

http://www.jananddean-janberry.com/main/index.php/features/jan-berry-101-a-study-in-composition-with-bach-old-ladies-and-bats

If a composer wanted a specific beat, with specific fills, and with specific "hits" to play with other sections of the band, that's the kind of chart you'd have written for the musicians. That's the kind of specific chart you'd get on a film scoring call, or a television soundtrack date where you'd play various "cues" specifically timed for the video. You're setting up a groove and a pattern for the full kit, indicating repeats, codas, and sections, and also notating fills you want the drummer to play in a certain rhythm, or even in Jan's case on a certain drum. That's his way of doing it.

It's known that Jan Berry wrote very specific parts for his players - but he was something of an exception to the rule, as was Frank Zappa who notated everything for his musicians.

Don't take the exception to the rule to suggest Dennis Wilson, or even the majority of pop writers and producers, worked sessions a certain way because Jan Berry was a meticulous arranger who dictated nearly every note.

I wasn't. I thought it was of interest to see how someone who worked close with Brian for a while did it.

Some of Dennis' drumming on "That's Not Me" seems kinda jazzy to me...:)

"Dennis Wilson – We Just Want To Be A Good Group" (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,10376.msg201007.html#msg201007), Hit Parader, 1967
Here is the text (http://troun.tripod.com/smiledennis.html) of the interview.

You sure it's not Carol Kaye? ;)

(Sorry)

COMMENT

During the time I worked with them, only Bruce Johnston and Daryl Dragon had the formal musical training required to write out musical parts or chords on manuscript paper that was technically correct. Thus, if required for sessions, and if he was around, Bruce (and/or Daryl) wrote the sheet music. If he was not around, others would write enough for session musicians to play. Sometimes, for more complex sessions, such as string sessions involving thousands of dollars in cost per minute, the parts were transcribed professionally, that is by an arranger or the session leader.

Brian had the knowledge to know chord names and recognise them by sound. Brian could read music in as much as most of us can find our way through a church hymnal and sing the melody, but playing the hymn as written, chords and all, on the piano -- not really. Brian, Carl and Alan could write chord sheets and could read music sheets. In time they learned a few things, but not to the extent of Bruce.

Michael just sings.

Dennis had no knowledge of musical transcription at first. Daryl being a close friend, taught him the basics and Dennis, being a quick learner, did acquire the ability to write down his own thoughts so that others could read them.

That was my experience.   And by the way, I can read an orchestral score, but I'd be hard pressed to write down anything more complex than Mary Had A Little Lamb.

~swd

Thanks Stephen!

I found another photo like this!

About 3-5 seconds into the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_hPqnxaYYI

I also recently finished reading the book that came with the Pet Sounds box set, and a few member of the Wrecking Crew did say Brian would give them written-out scores for their parts ... but not all members of the Wrecking Crew said this. Most said Brian gave them chord sheets, but Carole Kay and a couple others said Brian gave them full scores (though maybe with a few errors here and there).

Which makes me wonder if Brian's music-writing skills were good enough for certain instruments (maybe the ones playing simpler scores, like the bass), but not good enough for the more complex parts.

The musicians interviewed for the book also usually noted that Brian gave them some latitude in coming up with their own ideas for their parts, so I wonder if he might have been deliberately vague for some instruments because he wasn't 100% sure what he wanted them to play???

I'm thinking that when Dennis said he "wrote every note" of a particular song he didn't mean he actually had written it down on music notation paper as a score, but that he had created it as a musical work on his own. "Writing" could be sitting at the piano, working out the chords on guitar, playing the idea on a horn, singing it, etc.  Regardless of who could "read" music, they sure "wrote" some good music. (and while I can do the former, I sure can't do the latter)

My next question might be, if Brian was writing down chord sheets, what kind of chord sheets was he writing? My knowledge of chord sheets extends to ones for piano, which look like a bunch of piano keys, and guitar ones, which look like frets (I read those myself all the time) .. but since Brian wrote stuff on piano, how would he write chord sheets for, say, the sax player? Or a flute, or violin player? Obviously if you stick a piano chord sheet in front of a violin player the reaction of the violinist, I would think, would be, "Huh???" But maybe there's some other kind of generic "chord sheet" I'm unaware of.

Seems to me it would make more sense if he took blank pages of sheet music, wrote a time signature and key on it, divided up the bars, and wrote the chord over each bar (or part of a bar). Heck even *I* might be able to do something like that. ;)

COMMENT:
Chord sheets = a paper with the names of chords listed in playing order or symbols for chord names listed in order of playing.

Reference for chord names can be found in the tables at >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chord_names_and_symbols_(popular_music)

Chord names and Intervals apply to vocals, piano, guitar, etc.

Here's a popular song with chord names . . .

GOD ONLY KNOWS  (example)

Intro:

G  D, G  D
G  D/F#  Em7

Verse 1:

C/G        Am6
 I may not always love you,
Em    Em7
  But long as there,
Em6/G
 Are stars above you;
D          Bbdim
 You never need to doubt it,
D                 G#m7b5
 I'll make you so sure about it.

Chorus 1:

G         D/F#
 God only knows,
                 Em7      D
What I'd be with-out yo

Verse 2:

C/G            Am6
 If you should ever leave me;
Em      Em7
 Though life would,
      Em6/G
Still go on, believe me.
D
 The world could,
     A#dim
Show nothing to me,
D                   G#m7b5
 So what good would living do me?

Chorus 2:

G         D/F#
 God only knows,
                 Em7      D
What I'd be with-out you.

Instrumental Break:

F/C  Dm6  Am/E,
Am7  D7/C
G/D  Ebdim,
G/D  C#m7b5

Chorus 3:

G         D/F#
 God only knows,
                 Em7      D
What I'd be with-out you.

Verse 3:

C/G            Am6
 If you should ever leave me;
Em      Em7
 Though life would,
      Em6/G
Still go on, believe me.
D
 The world could,
     A#dim
Show nothing to me,
D                   G#m7b5
 So what good would living do me?

Coda:

G         D/F#
 God only knows,
                 Em7     D/F#
What I'd be with-out you.

G         D/F#
 God only knows,
                 Em7     D/F#
What I'd be with-out you.

(Repeat to Fade)

So Brian may hand over a "chord sheet" with the notations show above or play a "chord sheet" given to him.

For purposes of introducing a song to the group or a studio full of seasoned side-man-musicians, this was usually all that was needed. Of course when you copyright the song it must be written out note-by-note, but this is the job of a professional copyrighter and not Brian or any other group member. See previous post on this topic. For complex music sessions, one of the hired musicians may arrive early at the session and write out the music note-by-note on staff paper to make it easier for the musicians to follow, speeding the learning curve up and keeping session costs down.

~SWD

PS:: It has been some time since I worked in the studio with the guys. With the passing years, undoubtedly everyone has learned more about music scoring and noteation, I know I have. So perhaps today, Brian's writing ability is as good as Bruce's. Maybe someone else has more up-to-date information.  ~swd

About Brian singing to the boys their lines:


You can see in modern videos Brian showing members of his band how to sing vocal lines, he sings them to them, then they repeat it.  Lots of people have claimed most of those videos are staged, though.

However!  If you listen to the studio tapes of the boys recording "And your dreams come true"... there's a couple cool things.  You can clearly hear Brian apparently singing every vocal line really quickly to the other guys as they stand around the microphone, and somebody keeps telling Brian to get the key (play it on a piano to make sure they're all on key)... Brian keeps saying "I got it, I got it" and they keep insisting he 'get the key'... so finally after a few seconds, you hear him walk over to the piano, hit a few notes (which are dead on what he was singing)... and Mike or somebody goes... "Ouch" 

So if you listen to that studio tape (it was released, can't remember what compilation it's on) you can clearly hear Brian singing the other guys their parts.