Brian's production tricks: things over looked in BWPS and many Smile playlists

[Mahalo]

BWPS the album was fun, even for me, for a bit, then the novelty wore off and I was going back to my bootlegs. Plus, Brian's band, however impeccable they are every night, will never replace the Beach Boys for me.

Same here...I love BWPS, especially on vinyl. Yet there are so many little things that drive me nuts about that album when compared to the original tapes. Sometimes it seems like the tempos are a little fast...(remember Brian telling Dennis to lay back on the beat during the Holidays session), or the H&V trombone line fades too fast...I know I'm nitpicking but it is the intangibles like that which make the SMiLE! tapes so perfect...and honest.

Still, everynow and than I get in the mood to listen to listen to BWPS from start to finish without complaint. It's just weird, but from BW we should expect nothing less, I suppose.

[sockittome]

Brian Wilson Presents Smile is NOT Smile. It's a live performance of unfinished Smile music with some new additions. Smile was, is, and always will be the albatross in the BEACH BOYS' story.

It was indeed one thing when we all heard about "The Master Plan" for Smile, which was regurgitated in so many Brian interviews that we, like the world in general, eventually thought "yeah right" and went on with our lives. Then we hear that there would be a series of live shows of what was called "Smile" and dates were set. We freaked out like little children when we heard that, and some of us were privileged enough to see the early tracklist that leaked out in 2003.

The first performance went off like a hoot, as the bootleg which came out literally a few hours later showed all who couldn't be there. Now, it's one thing to have a performance of Smile music in a live context. And that's how Brian Wilson Presents Smile should have remained. A LIVE PERFORMANCE. Going into the studio to do what amounted to a basic carbon copy of the live gigs, with the same sampled keyboards, overall dry (read: no WARMTH) sound, and shouting by Brian, might have proven nice to those who couldn't see a show or couldn't find bootlegs, but over time has proven to be distasteful, disrespectful of the Smile music and mystique, and disrespectful of Brian himself (that is, if the eight or nine million Brianistas out there still need more convincing as to how he's not in the driver's seat of his career). Not to mention disrespectful to the Beach Boys, for whom this music was intended.

Time will eventually show, when a Beach Boys Smile sessions package is finally released (not IF, and if you believe otherwise spare us all the bullmerda and agonizing torture of "RESPECT BRIAN'S WISHES BECAUSE BRIAN DOESN'T WANT THEM OUT!!!!" - "Brian doesn't want them out" my ass; he's just as money-minded as anyone else in the Beach Boys - it's all good timin' ) and the public at large can hear Brian's amazing original recordings AS THEY WERE INTENDED TO SOUND BY BRIAN before the sessions came to their demise, that the studio BWPS is a forgery of the Smile music - dishonest, tasteless, insulting, and, above all, degrading to the Beach Boys and Brian legacy, not to mention THE FANS.

That's pretty good.  But all kidding aside, how do you feel about BWPS?

[Jonathan Blum]

Jonathan Blum, so BWPS had some "stunning" reviews? Well, it must be great then....

Not just "some" stunning reviews; an overwhelming consensus of them.  The average score of 97/100 on metacritic puts it at the absolute top of the site's Best-Reviewed Albums list, covering the whole of the decade.

And the point is not "it must be great", rather "people in general think it's great".  Your question was about perceived quality, what people thought of it, not some sort of supposedly-objective True Quality -- that's a whole different kettle of worms.  And basically, everywhere you look, from the critical raves to customer review sites (the user poll on metacritic is comfortably in the green zone as well), all the evidence points to Smile going down really, stupendously well with people.  And TLOS getting a better reception than his last couple of albums before it too.

Once again -- TLOS hit #21, GIOMH hit #100.  Even if those just represent first-week sales, that's still a clear sign of increased demand in the wake of Smile.

Cheers,
Jon Blum

[Dr. Tim]

Thank you Mr. Blum.  I make stuff up, but you've got the STATS.  So TLOS did pretty well after all - even in spite of the music biz falling apart in 2008, it still hit #21.  I don't think that's having it both ways.  Though even if it was of course that's my job to do that.  And that's the real measure.  TLOS was the real BWPS follow-up, on a major label. 

The Xmas record?  OK but not in my rotation.  Frankly, any jerk can do a Xmas album, and they usually do.  So you're right, I don't count it.

Now my olive branch to the sheriff: you want to know how Mike's solo album can do as well as Brian?  And Al's too?  Seriously? Stop waiting for some so-called "major" (ho! hee!) label to bite on it.  He should put it out HIMSELF and use the Web as a tool to (1) whet fans' appetites, and (2) distribute the thing, as MP3s, FLAC downloads, regular CDs and LPs, or best of all, all the above.   And push the merch at their shows.  Phish has built a whole industry for themselves doing just this.

Brian does some peculiar things and I have no use for the Bloo otherwise, but one thing he has done right is let some stuff out of the bag on the website, like the MAD/Forever Surfer Girl demos.   Or we get a link to something special at a special time from a special person with access.  THAT'S how you keep the fanbase interested.

Now if Mike (and Al) jump off the cliff and do this they might be pleasantly surprised.  The couple of Mike tracks I have heard, like "Cool Head Warm Heart", are pretty good.  If the rest of the album is that good he should be in fine shape.  On the other hand, if they've been told of this option and still want to opt for the old dinosaurs to give them a big advance, then they both will have a long wait and I stand by my wisecrack.

Here endeth my discussion of Brian's production tricks.

[Mr. Cohen]

Jonathan Blum, so BWPS had some "stunning" reviews? Well, it must be great then....

Exactly. Most of those critics had already been wowed by the original Smile material, and all BWPS had to do was be a pale facsimile to get rave reviews. Their reviews were part of an attempt to get the concept of the Smile project out there in the public eye. The reviewers were more in love with that than BWPS. Fact is, BWPS is simply NOT talked about in musical circles now unless you count BB-centric ones like this message board. People ignore it. It makes no "best of..." lists or anything like that. It gets a little respect if it's brought up, but that has more do to with it being in the afterglow of Smile's mythology. Do you think that Smile '67 would have had the same reception? I don't. Even if a released Smile '67 had turned into an unholy mess, with "CIFOTM" and "With Me Tonight" put into the song "Vegetables" or the jazzy take of "Wonderful" being used over the original to give examples, it still would get more attention now from musical circles than BWPS does.

I like BWPS. But most people I know also think there is something wrong with me for listening to an album full of growly Brian Wilson vocals.

edit - Which brings me to another point. Brian shouldn't have sang on BWPS. It would've been like using a horribly out of tune piano that's in disrepair on all of the tracks because it was from some vintage Smile sessions. I understand that with Brian there is a human element you have to account for, he's not just an instrument. I'm just speaking performance wise.

[The Song Of The Grange]

Sorry for the bad vibes sockittome.  Please accept my apology.  Apparently I am a bit touchy on the subject!

[BJL]

Thank you Mr. Blum.  I make stuff up, but you've got the STATS.  So TLOS did pretty well after all - even in spite of the music biz falling apart in 2008, it still hit #21.  I don't think that's having it both ways.  Though even if it was of course that's my job to do that.  And that's the real measure.  TLOS was the real BWPS follow-up, on a major label. 

Perhaps more like TLOS did pretty well because of the collapse of the music industry as we know it.  In short, the boomers are the only ones who still buy albums at all, which means that Capitol has an incentive to sign a guy like Brian, what with the teen and college oriented music market having been co-opted by the web, and his record is far more likely to move up the charts when the over all volume of sales has gone down, especially if the only people still buying albums are over 40 :-) 

[sofonanm]

from dada
edit - Which brings me to another point. Brian shouldn't have sang on BWPS. It would've been like using a horribly out of tune piano that's in disrepair on all of the tracks because it was from some vintage Smile sessions. I understand that with Brian there is a human element you have to account for, he's not just an instrument. I'm just speaking performance wise.

erm... so who would've sung? the faceless wondermints? they pretty much did everything else that if you removed brian's voice it would be "the wondermints perform a collection of edited songs from the beach boys' ill-fated 'smile' album."

[Mr. Cohen]

the faceless wondermints? they pretty much did everything else that if you removed brian's voice it would be "the wondermints perform a collection of edited songs from the beach boys' ill-fated 'smile' album."

Darian Sahanaja. Look at him, he should be a star:

[sofonanm]

the faceless wondermints? they pretty much did everything else that if you removed brian's voice it would be "the wondermints perform a collection of edited songs from the beach boys' ill-fated 'smile' album."

Darian Sahanaja. Look at him, he should be a star:

hellllllllllllllllllllllllllll no.

brian singing badly destroys darian singing his best. he's just bland.

[Jonathan Blum]

Fact is, BWPS is simply NOT talked about in musical circles now unless you count BB-centric ones like this message board.  People ignore it. It makes no "best of..." lists or anything like that. It gets a little respect if it's brought up, but that has more do to with it being in the afterglow of Smile's mythology.

Fact is, you're just making this up.

Or, less confrontationally -- can you give me some examples of "musical circles" in which Smile is discussed today, at all, but BWPS is ignored?

Bonus points if those links aren't just to wanky circle-jerks among other flavors of music fanboys, either.  :-)

Do you think that Smile '67 would have had the same reception?

I think Smile in '67 would have had a decent reception, but it wouldn't have had forty years of whispered mythologizing on its side to make people worship it either.  I think today it would be regarded as Brian Wilson's interesting experimental followup to "Pet Sounds", appreciated by conoisseurs, but way more of a "Their Satanic Majesties Request" than a "Sgt. Pepper" or a "Pet Sounds".  A cult album, a fan favorite, "Holland" writ large...  at most a "Forever Changes", beloved by the cognoscenti, rather than an "Are You Experienced?", which everyone knows as a classic.

(And none of this has any bearing on how good I think the music is -- in that universe I'd be listening to it thinking "Why don't more people appreciate this little gem of an album?", just as I do with Holland or TLOS...)

Cheers,
Jon Blum

[Dancing Bear]

Smile is discussed today but BWPS is ignored

Look, Smile is and always be a lost and unfinished Beach Boys album that should have been released in 1967 but got shelved, after which Brian Wilson, their leader, started his downward spiral. Period. That's rocklore. Arguing that the composer should have final say about the subject, that it was finished in 2004 and was always meant to happen that way, that's stuff for Beach Boys message boards. BWPS moved a respectable number of copies thanks to the myth built by 37 years of hype. To some extent, Smile is still debated out there: the album that would top Sgt Pepper or some crap like that. BWPS is a footnote at best.

[buddhahat]

You could call BWPS a fake because it is similar to Knossos palace in Crete. This is where the story of Theseus fighting the Minotaur comes from. It is an amazing ruined palace, except in the early 20th century the guy who excavated it added loads of concrete and painted bits to try and reproduce how he suspected or imagined the original palace to look. The result is that as a visitor you can't really tell which ruins are authentic, and which are recent concrete additions, which is a bit frustrating.

BWPS however is not the same. Firstly the principle composers are significantly involved in the 'reconstruction', unlike Knossos Palace. Secondly they are not attaching the new bits (e.g. the new melody/words to Blue Hawaii/dada) to the original fragments, which means the original sessions remain entirely unspoiled by the new reconstruction. This allows the hardcore fan to easily appreciate the ruins as they stood in 67, to discern what in the 04 rebuild is largely authentic to the original design (i.e. Cabinessence) and to spot what is a new addition.

If you'll indulge this pretentious analogy for one more paragraph: If BWPS were Knossos it would be a life-size reconstruction and rehash of the ruins by King Minos, his chief advisor, and a modern day hot-shot architect, that stood not in place of, but next to the original ruins so the curious visitor could easily compare the original and the new version. Many would argue that the original ruins had a certain charm lacking in the new life-size model and they'd be right. But if they just venture next door to the reconstruction they'll see that it contains some beautiful authentic features remembered by Minos himself, that were lost in the ruins. Some people would also enjoy the chance to walk around the re-imagined palace without coming up against giant holes, and crumbling walls everywhere. So both the original and the reconstruction have their own merits and are not mutually exclusive. Personally I don't believe BWPS is a fake, but just another piece of the puzzle which you can incorporate or discard depending on your p.o.v.

[Billgoodman]

As I said in my earlier (and first post) there is lot's of talk about SMiLE 2004 in my generation (born in the 80's).
You can pick up a copy of SMiLE 2004 for like 8 dollars and bring it as a present to a diner party. You can't come with some dvd filled with 60 versions of all the H&V-elements, that just a bad gift for the uninitiated. That is just what SMiLE 2004 is: a real record, that can bring the joy of SMiLE to the noobs, the people that normally won't download/buy a bootleg.

Saying that SMiLE 2004 isn't Smile is pretty funny considering that all the sessions from '66/'67 aren't Smile either. It does not exist. I see them both as variations on the same theme, the original sessions being the better (and sometimes only decent) versions of the great songs, the 2004-album as the only pop record that is based on those songs. Nobody really knows what it was supposed to sound like, including Van Dyke and Brian.

Saying that 2004 is disrespectful to the original Beach Boys or their fans is somewhat disrespectful to common people who know nothing about the sandbox, a guy who fell into his french horn and what the difference between the sound a real harpsichord and a sampled on is.
 

[Dr. Tim]

Buddhahat's analogy is pretty good.  The analogy I like is to compare the completion of Smile 2004 with the Deryck Cooke completion/performing version of Mahler's 10th Symphony.  Of course Mahler was dead 50 years when Cooke first presented his initial orchestration (Mahler had through-composed the entire symphony but only orchestrated a couple of the movements).  In 2004 Brian and Van Dyke revisited their work (with Darian and others) and produced their concert performing version, which I think will be the one that "sticks" historically.   Many of the arguments we are having here about 1966 Smile and 2004 Smile were (and still are) made about the Mahler 10th.   Mahler's widow originally vetoed it (which would have been the end), but then relented.   There were a few cranks who think it should have been left in the box unheard.  Before he died Cooke revised his first version to strip it down a bit.  Both have been recorded and there is a debate over which is the better one, both have their advocates.  Several other musicologists have since tried their hand at performing versions trying to suss out other orchestral choices Mahler might have made.   The fundamental question with both works is: how do they sound as a performance?  Do they pack a wallop or not?  In the case of Mahler's 10th, academic correctness aside, the consensus is that it's a worthy concert experience, with a finale that brings down the house and ranks with Mahler's best self-completed work.

Not a bad comparison, methinks, with a BDW work where the musical community is judging it on what it is, not on what is correct, and not on whether it should be allowed to be heard by anybody in any form.  Your mileage, as they say, may vary.

Hah! Another production trick!

[Mahalo]

As I said in my earlier (and first post) there is lot's of talk about SMiLE 2004 in my generation (born in the 80's).
You can pick up a copy of SMiLE 2004 for like 8 dollars and bring it as a present to a diner party. You can't come with some dvd filled with 60 versions of all the H&V-elements, that just a bad gift for the uninitiated. That is just what SMiLE 2004 is: a real record, that can bring the joy of SMiLE to the noobs, the people that normally won't download/buy a bootleg.

Saying that SMiLE 2004 isn't Smile is pretty funny considering that all the sessions from '66/'67 aren't Smile either. It does not exist. I see them both as variations on the same theme, the original sessions being the better (and sometimes only decent) versions of the great songs, the 2004-album as the only pop record that is based on those songs. Nobody really knows what it was supposed to sound like, including Van Dyke and Brian.

Saying that 2004 is disrespectful to the original Beach Boys or their fans is somewhat disrespectful to common people who know nothing about the sandbox, a guy who fell into his french horn and what the difference between the sound a real harpsichord and a sampled on is.
 

Good Point...I ran into some dudes our age, (children of the 80's!), at a Christmas party and I overheard them raving about BWPS. One is in a Rock/punk/emo band from NYC, and the other dude was a hipster (for lack of a better word). I immediatley got excited, jumped into the conversation, and then quickly realized that they couldn't give two poops about the original tapes. They (and many others I've met) liked the story of the sandbox, but that was about as far as it went. They will probably never track down the origianl Cabinessence or even Surf's Up 71. That's OK with me. I think they are missing the good stuff, but they aren't too into the Boyz'.

[SG7]

I have not  posted in quite a while, as I feel I have nothing of true worth to say on this board. However, reading this thread has stirred me to speak my mind here. Once again we are judging BWPS on a variety of merits. I will say at one point I felt strongly about both sides of the issue. BWPS came out when at a time I didn't even know what a bootleg was. I had only heard snippets  of the "former" smile and I really did not know what to expect. That day September 28th, 2004 I was completely blown away by what I heard. From then on, my curiosity in smile became an all time high. I was hell bent in trying to find any snippets of the 66 - 67 stuff as I could. Eventually I heard most of what is out there, and I began to think differently. Now it has been 5 (soon to be 6) years since BWPS's release. I came to the conclusion is as a purist and someone who does appreciate the  newer stuff, that both of these Smiles  can coexist. As many of you would love to forget, most of us were ecstatic for BWPS. Then the criticism came out. Darian sang too many Doo You's. Mrs. O Leary's Cow wasn't scary enough. Pro tools made Brian suck. The list goes on and on. As criticism isn't a bad thing, I feel that overtime it has gotten worse. To the point that it has become silly. Now we have people saying they should have never done it? Good grief and coming out of the mouths of some people who waited all the night to get the bootleg of the first Smile performance in February of 04? I am not calling everyone out, but how hypocritical can some of you be? BWPS was the next step for them to take. The time was perfect and the right people were in that project. It should not be judged on the merit that it was not going to be the 66 - 67 smile. It should be judged on it's own terms. Yes we can't hear it without wondering about the Smile beforehand, but without the smile of before, it stands as not only an accomplishment on Brian's part but the band and everyone else involved who made it happen too. Those are real heroes for Brian's music.

Now, the second thing that has gotten to me here is the bashing I should say of Wondermints and "faceless?" Is that all you can say? A common misconception, the Wondermints is not the entire Brian Wilson band. That is only 4 out of 10 people. Second , I don't get the negative vibe people have about his band. They are not only fantastic musicians in their own write but loyal to Brian and great people. For those who seem to think down on the Wondermints, I would be more than happy to direct you here http://caravangems.podbean.com/ I just did a Wondermints show just recently on my college radio station. I would like to challenge some of you skeptics to hear some of this. Unless my ears are lying to me, they are fabulous in their own write and as a side note I had so many great responses from that show, that I am even doing another one next semester! So unless a lot of deaf people are listening to my show  

[Mahalo]

Pro tools made Brian suck.

That's a funny sentence! 

[Dancing Bear]

Hmm ok. So BWPS is adored between the silent majority of the youngsters today. That kinda closes the debate. 

[sofonanm]

Now, the second thing that has gotten to me here is the bashing I should say of Wondermints and "faceless?" Is that all you can say? A common misconception, the Wondermints is not the entire Brian Wilson band. That is only 4 out of 10 people. Second , I don't get the negative vibe people have about his band. They are not only fantastic musicians in their own write but loyal to Brian and great people. For those who seem to think down on the Wondermints, I would be more than happy to direct you here http://caravangems.podbean.com/ I just did a Wondermints show just recently on my college radio station. I would like to challenge some of you skeptics to hear some of this. Unless my ears are lying to me, they are fabulous in their own write and as a side note I had so many great responses from that show, that I am even doing another one next semester! So unless a lot of deaf people are listening to my show  

"Faceless" - in that I cannot distinguish who's singing while listening to the record.

It's not that I'm unfamiliar with the musicians on it either - I've watched the DVD plenty of times, enough to remember what each person looks like and what (when it can be distinguished) their individual voices sound like, but on the record it just feels so faceless to me compared to hearing the Beach Boys. Do you like the singers on the I Just Wasn't Made For These Times album? Would you like them to work with Brian and re-record Pet Sounds? Why not?

It would have been part of the beauty of a completed Smile album back then - that a public, however underwhelmed and confused with the dramatic change, would hear a voice like Mike Love's, more famous for singing about girls, cars, surfin' and beaches - singing the cryptic "Over and over the crow cries uncover the wheat field" in some of his best singing to date.

I have nothing against the musicians that work with Brian. I think they're pretty great for what they're doing. They all seem like pretty nice folk too judging from the TLOS 'making of' DVD thing. 

[Alex]

But most people got a great gift: an introduction to SMiLE. Now let's hope they all will dig deeper and listen to the original tapes.

That's pretty much how it happened for me. In 2005 I bought BWPS, after having read tons of articles about it and after hearing Pet Sounds for the first time and absolutely loving it. It was BWPS, and the whole legend behind SMiLE that made me want to seek out the original recordings. The Ryan Guidry SMiLE mix was the first taste of the 1966-67 tracks that I got and I ended up listening to it about twice as much as I did BWPS.

[SG7]

Well when you talk about public, who are you referring to? Are you referring to types like yourself or the younger crowd? I think the people that are super hip to BWPS are the young people who really don't know the whole story. I know people myself who have really liked the album who don't know the whole tale and like the album without needing to know the 37 + year history. That kind of scenario these days is possible...

Also another thing too, Brian's band is NOT trying to be the Beach Boys nor do I think they are trying to replace them. They do blend well, and sometimes with the way things are mixed you can't hear everyone like you would like to. That is why either seeing them live or hearing their other projects can give someone a better idea. After listening to Wondermints records for so long, I've begun to pick up people and that can get kind of freaky at times  

And I am not saying sofonanm that you have anything against them. In the past though there has been that issue and that has needed to be addressed. There are still people out there who look down on them for whatever reason and at the end of the day, your opinion is your opinion but I think that is unfair. Paul McCartney was right when he said Brian's band is the best touring band in the world.

[lance]

BWPS is what made me a fan. I was starting to become interested, but that was what sealed the deal.

I like the old stuff better....but it's unfinished.

BWPS is finished.

BWPS IS SMiLE.

 Not as it woulda-coulda-shoulda been. As it ended up. And it is a fucking cool piece of music.

[SG7]

BWPS is what made me a fan. I was starting to become interested, but that was what sealed the deal.

I like the old stuff better....but it's unfinished.

BWPS is finished.

BWPS IS SMiLE.

 Not as it woulda-coulda-shoulda been. As it ended up. And it is a friggin' cool piece of music.

Hearing about Smile made me a fan. I remember hearing about the shows in February on a music newsletter I was on when I was still in my hardcore Beatles stage. I thought it was cool but I didn't think much about it. Never realized how all that stuff would impact my life later.

[Sheriff John Stone]

BWPS however is not the same. Firstly the principle composers are significantly involved in the 'reconstruction', unlike Knossos Palace. Secondly they are not attaching the new bits (e.g. the new melody/words to Blue Hawaii/dada) to the original fragments, which means the original sessions remain entirely unspoiled by the new reconstruction. This allows the hardcore fan to easily appreciate the ruins as they stood in 67, to discern what in the 04 rebuild is largely authentic to the original design (i.e. Cabinessence) and to spot what is a new addition.

Respectfully, buddhahat, I could not disagree more. I do not believe Brian Wilson was significantly involved in the "reconstruction" at all. I believe Darian did the overwhelming majority of the work, both creatively and physically. And, I believe Van Dyke Parks filled in the gaps, both with the lyrics and the "linking music".

Second, ATTACHING NEW BITS is exactly what they did do. They changed the song titles, the endings (eliminating the great fades), added new lyrics (to the instrumentals), put in discarded lyrics (in "Good Vibrations"), added a female voice, and added new art work (because they were too cheap to pay for the old stuff?).

You really think Brian Wilson was SIGNIFICANTLY involved? He didn't sequence it (he's admiited that), he didn't write the new lyrics and new music (Darian and Van Dyke did that), and, did he even show up for the recording of the music? Oh, sure, he didn't have to; he wasn't gonna play anything anyway, but do you think he could've at least been interested enough to show up? Just to do some of that "fake producing". Hell, the idea to "finish" SMiLE wasn't his idea anyway. It was his wife's!