Mike and Bruce Tour 2014

[mikeddonn]

Water under the bridge to Brian and Mike.  The 'banter' C50 clip posted is similar to stories from the Campfire scenes during the Endless Summer tv show.  Brian and Mike always seem to have a camaraderie whenever they meet up.  They know each other inside out. They like to tease each other and reminisce.  I don't think Brian sits around cursing Mike Love or vice versa.  Other insiders have at times said as much.  The guys are ok with each other and I don't think any of them would definitely say "no" to a collaboration in future.  Maybe I'm wrong about all of the above but it seems to me the fans care about it all more than the cousins do.

[Mendota Heights]

Brian Wilson receives nothing but praise....

[Wirestone]

I think it's hilarious that when Mike's defenders are challenged the tiniest bit on the passive-aggressive nonsense they consistently spout, that they just go nuts. They can't handle it. Shut down the threads! (Even though they can disparage Brian, his loved ones and collaborators in countless messages for years.) We've had this discussion before! (Even though, again, they seemingly never tire of telling us how washed up, manipulated and drugged Brian is.) You just hate Mike personally and are obsessed with him! (Never mind the endless flow of their posts about Brian's coddled behavior.)

Look at Pinder's reply after reply on this thread. Look at Cam's Orwellian turns of phrase. It's an alternate reality they've constructed in their minds, and any attempt to dismantle it has to be utterly destroyed or they can't function. It's practically cultish.

[Niko]

.

[Nicko1234]

The turn in this thread is only natural since there has been an overall negativity aimed at anything related to Brian since the summertime. It seems to be an agenda when on one thread alone there are 40 some odd pages of posts badmouthing BW in a variety of ways. Let me break them down:

1. The Love and Mercy movie- This project has been trashed from the get go for a variety of reasons, from it being a "BW vanity project" that trashes the other BB’s, to the woodie in a 10 second clip not being accurate enough, to calling the actors in it "has beens" and so on, when in fact this movie opened at the Toronto Film Festival to rave reviews.

2. Brian is controlled by his wife/Joe Thomas- This theme has been repeated ad nauseum by some posters, I would say increasingly since the summertime. Implying BW doesn’t make his own musical decisions is almost a sick fantasy , as some posters want a BW/ML -BB's album more than anything. BW was more than willing to record another BB's album until Mike ended the C50; to say that BW is not in charge of his creative and personal life is irresponsible at best.

3. The Autobio/Jason Fine- The premise by some that this book will be another hack job like the last one, written by Todd Gold without any input by Brian, is like wishful thinking. Jason Fine is probably hard at work with a cooperative Brian, in order to get a good summary of Brian's life. This is important, as the last book was such a Landy fiasco which had very little to do with reality.

4. The various attempts by some posters to rewrite history ; from the end of C50 , to the Wally Heider episode; it appears to be an agenda to change the history from where blame shifts from Mike to Brian on these events in Beach Boys history.

5. The Smiley Smile message board- This place seems to have an odd anti-BW outlook in some circles. This vocal minority was finally pushed back yesterday by annoyed BW fans who had enough. The response was to clog the board with more anti-BW stuff that was not related to the topic at hand. This mucking up of the board was to hide the fact that Mike Love had said some really negative stuff in the Tanglewood interview. His sentiments were oddly the same as the small vocal group that derailed the board yesterday....

 

The idea that somebody not liking the woodie used in Love and Mercy indicates `anti-Brian` feeling is utterly preposterous. I love it though...

[SMiLE Brian]

I agree with wirestone, its this strange cult of Mike followers that make any positive praise of BW hard to do.

[Mendota Heights]

The idea that somebody not liking the woodie used in Love and Mercy indicates `anti-Brian` feeling is utterly preposterous.

Strawmanning much?

[Cam Mott]

I think it's hilarious that when Mike's defenders are challenged the tiniest bit on the passive-aggressive nonsense they consistently spout, that they just go nuts. They can't handle it. Shut down the threads! (Even though they can disparage Brian, his loved ones and collaborators in countless messages for years.) We've had this discussion before! (Even though, again, they seemingly never tire of telling us how washed up, manipulated and drugged Brian is.) You just hate Mike personally and are obsessed with him! (Never mind the endless flow of their posts about Brian's coddled behavior.)

Look at Pinder's reply after reply on this thread. Look at Cam's Orwellian turns of phrase. It's an alternate reality they've constructed in their minds, and any attempt to dismantle it has to be utterly destroyed or they can't function. It's practically cultish.

He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past.

If you weren't so set on believing an alternate that has been constructed you would perceive the reality.

Bwaha! Bwahahahahaha! (lighting and thunder) (we Mike "defenders" cult dance around a bonfire of baseball caps and bling)

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I'll let that pic Swedish Frog's posted speak for me )

I'm also of the mind that when two sides are basically accusing each other of doing the exact same thing ....... both sides are likely right.

I'm heading over to Club Kokomo! Bruce is handing out free Pacificos for the first 10 people at the bar!!

[Empire Of Love]

Brian Wilson is not a pretty picture when looked into and discussed (nor are The Beach Boys) .... If this is an unacceptable reality, maybe try another idol?

Honest question: I'm not one to *fully* excuse bad behavior on the basis of mental illness, and I am not overly familiar with the full timeline of BB/BW events, but are there any "ugly" aspects of Brian's life/character prior to his known struggles with mental illness?  I get that (street and eventually prescribed) drugs complicated that issue, and I don't excuse anyone for choosing that option (street drugs) in order to deal with problems, but certainly more leniency should be granted to someone under such circumstances.  So my question is, what sort of ugliness can be attributed to Brian pre-mental health issues?  If there isn't really anything other than the standard human plight, then it would seem odd to compare his faults to Mike's if we are assuming Mike is mentally healthy.  Shouldn't we expect the struggles of a person suffering as Brian has to be greater than someone who is perfectly healthy?  Additionally, Brian carried the weight of writing the hits and keeping the cash cow flowing, no one else in the band knows what it is like to live with that tied around your neck.  I don't mean to give Brian a free pass, and he is accountable for his decisions, but to say "hey, you say bad things about Mike then I'm going to get you back by attacking Brian" isn't only immature, it lacks compassion and borders on cruelty.

[SMiLE Brian]

The idea that somebody not liking the woodie used in Love and Mercy indicates `anti-Brian` feeling is utterly preposterous.

Strawmanning much?

Exactly, its all they got as a defense.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Brian Wilson is not a pretty picture when looked into and discussed (nor are The Beach Boys) .... If this is an unacceptable reality, maybe try another idol?

Honest question: I'm not one to *fully* excuse bad behavior on the basis of mental illness, and I am not overly familiar with the full timeline of BB/BW events, but are there any "ugly" aspects of Brian's life/character prior to his known struggles with mental illness?  I get that (street and eventually prescribed) drugs complicated that issue, and I don't excuse anyone for choosing that option (street drugs) in order to deal with problems, but certainly more leniency should be granted to someone

under such circumstances.  So my question is, what sort of ugliness can be attributed to Brian pre-mental health issues?  If there isn't really anything other than the standard human plight, then it would seem odd to compare his faults to Mike's if we are assuming Mike is mentally healthy.  Shouldn't we expect the struggles of a person suffering as Brian has to be greater than someone who is perfectly healthy?  Additionally, Brian carried the weight of writing the hits and keeping the cash cow flowing, no one else in the band knows what it is like to live with that tied around your neck.  I don't mean to give Brian a free pass, and he is accountable for his decisions, but to say "hey, you say bad things about Mike then I'm going to get you back by attacking Brian" isn't only immature, it lacks compassion and borders on cruelty.

I wasn't making any judgements about Brian or accusing him of any ugly behavior... His life has been equal parts tragic and triumphant. No news there.

As for Mike: why on earth should we assume that he is mentally healthy? He's been in THE BEACH BOYS for 50 years!!!!

[SMiLE Brian]

I think it's hilarious that when Mike's defenders are challenged the tiniest bit on the passive-aggressive nonsense they consistently spout, that they just go nuts. They can't handle it. Shut down the threads! (Even though they can disparage Brian, his loved ones and collaborators in countless messages for years.) We've had this discussion before! (Even though, again, they seemingly never tire of telling us how washed up, manipulated and drugged Brian is.) You just hate Mike personally and are obsessed with him! (Never mind the endless flow of their posts about Brian's coddled behavior.)

Look at Pinder's reply after reply on this thread. Look at Cam's Orwellian turns of phrase. It's an alternate reality they've constructed in their minds, and any attempt to dismantle it has to be utterly destroyed or they can't function. It's practically cultish.

He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past.

If you weren't so set on believing an alternate that has been constructed you would perceive the reality.

Bwaha! Bwahahahahaha! (lighting and thunder) (we Mike "defenders" cult dance around a bonfire of baseball caps and bling)

So thats what goes on in club kokomo, wirestone was right about you guys living in another reality!

[ontor pertawst]

"Club Kokomo. It was an All-in-One and One-in-All of limitless being and self - not merely a thing of one space-time continuum, but allied to the ultimate animating essence of existence's whole unbounded sweep - the last, utter sweep which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike. It was perhaps that which certain secret cults of Earth had whispered of as Mike Love, and which has been a deity under other names; that which the crustaceans of Smiley Smile worship as Mr. Positivity, the Beyond-One, The Bringer of Endless Summer and of dark chattering car sounds, and which the vaporous brains of the spiral nebulae know by an untranslatable sign that resembles a hand waving along to the words "Good Vibrations" - yet in a flash the Pinder-facet realized how slight and fractional all these conceptions are.

And now Mike Love was addressing the Pinder-facet in prodigious waves that smote and burned and thundered - a concentration of energy that blasted its recipient with well-nigh unendurable violence, and that paralleled in an unearthly rhythm the curious swaying and mic-adjusting of Bruce Johnston, and the flickering of the monstrous lights, in that baffling region somewhere beyond Jeff Foskett. It was as though suns and worlds and universes had converged upon one point whose very position in space they had conspired to annihilate with an impact of resistless fury. But amidst the greater terror one lesser terror was diminished; for the searing waves appeared somehow to isolate the positivity and Unleash the Love.

The waves surged forth again, and Pinder knew that Mike Love had heard. And now there poured from that limitless Mike a flood of knowledge and explanation which opened new vistas to the seeker, and prepared him for such a grasp of the cosmos and who contributed lyrics to what song as he had never hoped to possess. He was told how childish and limited are the notions of David Leaf and how backwards Dennis Wilson's claim of being messengers truly were, and what an infinity of directions there are besides the known directions of up-down, forward-backward, right-left, talented songwriter possessed of genius and an uncanny gift for harmony-sporadically inspired lyricist and nasal frontman. He was shown the smallness and tinsel emptiness of the little Pet Sounds fans who still nursed grudges over Smile, with their petty, human interests and connections - their hatreds, rages, loves and vanities; their craving for praise and sacrifice, and their demands for faiths contrary to reason and nature. "

- H.P. Lovecraft, 'Through the Gates of Club Kokomo'

[Jim V.]

I'll let that pic Swedish Frog's posted speak for me )

I'm also of the mind that when two sides are basically accusing each other of doing the exact same thing ....... both sides are likely right.

I'm heading over to Club Kokomo! Bruce is handing out free Pacificos for the first 10 people at the bar!!

Bruce doesn't hand out free ANYTHING! It's all about the free market baby. Buy your own drinks!

[Empire Of Love]

I'll let that pic Swedish Frog's posted speak for me )

I'm also of the mind that when two sides are basically accusing each other of doing the exact same thing ....... both sides are likely right.

I'm heading over to Club Kokomo! Bruce is handing out free Pacificos for the first 10 people at the bar!!

What happened to your post, it has been edited?  Everything I addressed in my post has disappeared?!?

[HeyJude]

There are people who immediately (or eventually) resort to personal attacks on Mike. This is wrong (and also ineffective if one is trying to make a point). But a few important points: First of all, there are PLENTY of learned, scholarly, knowledgeable folks here who make cogent, well-written arguments that sometimes can fall on the critical side of Mike.

The continual lumping in of a few crackpots with those who know their s**t and can make concise, polite points has always troubled me.

Part of this may come from another separate but related phenomenon: The apparent lack of ability to discern what a "personal attack" is. It's like the same stuff that happens during a debate in politics: The continual assertion that one is making "personal attacks."

"Mike is full of crap because he's ugly and bald." That is a personal attack.

"It's a bummer Mike made the decision that directly led to the end of a reunited group." That IS NOT a personal attack.

"Mike is a dick for ending the reunion." This may not be as eloquently put, and name calling can be construed as an attack. But on the whole, this is not a personal attack either. It's a judgment to be sure, and a subjective one at that.

Separate from all of this, there is also the "get over it" mentality that continues to be used a primary defense of Mike and his actions. "Mike ended the reunion? Get the f*** over it!" "You think Mike shouldn't use the BB name? Get over it." Not only is this a tired, invalid defense of anything or anyone, it makes a false assumption that those who would be critical of Mike or pine for a reunion (or insert whatever assertion is at play) haven't "gotten over it" already.

When a community of people become too negative about something, it's a good idea (in theory at least) to try to examine this and see if people are perhaps starting to live in a vacuum and not realize how toxic the environment has become. But as this sort of thing relates to "anti-Mike" stuff on this board, I would offer two points: One, the folks attacking those they perceive as "anti-Mike"  are equally (some would argue moreso) contributing to any element of a toxic atmosphere. Secondly, and more pointedly, I would submit that perhaps the level of critical comments about Mike may not be due to those making the comments, but rather the target of the criticism. Crazy concept, I know. We're heading into the 53rd year of this band, and while everybody in the group including Mike has been subjected to plenty of unfair, false criticisms, I can't really say that there is a vast conspiracy of fans cooking up things to criticize Mike about. With the aforementioned exception of some truly unfair, false things (that ALL of the band members have been subjected to at one point or another), Mike for better or worse has done and said things that have led to fans feeling the way they do about him. Just as Brian being eccentric and weird has led to fans coming to the conclusion that, well, he's weird. Just as Bruce contributing next to zero to live shows since the 80's has led to the conclusion among some fans that he, well contributes next to zero to most shows. Just as Al spending entire shows tuning his guitar and adjusting the knobs and staring angrily at his stage monitor has led to that perception. And so on.

I'd like to point out how much this band and its music can HEAL the animosity from even the most crusty, negative fans. This was in plain evidence to me DURING C50. Many ardent "anti-Mike" folks saw their irritation washed away IMMEDIATELY when Mike played a key, seemingly enthusiastic role in the reunion. Howie Edelson has alluded to this in the past as well. SO MUCH negative stuff from the press and the fans was washed away and/or put on the back burner. By the end of 2012, it was WORSE than when C50 started, and that was the fault of NO ONE ELSE in the band.

[HeyJude]

The point of this message board, as I understand it, is to discuss the music.  

Maybe that's where there is some disconnect. I've NEVER seen a board dedicated to a band or artist where nothing but purely "the music" is discussed. What would that even entail? Only discussion of the musical structure? Or can we also talk about recording sessions? What about musical gear? But then are "What's your favorite era of Al's beard" threads not okay? What about talking about Jan & Dean?

What about talking about, say, "Smile?" How could one possibly have a real discussion about that project by ONLY talking about the music? So no discussion of Brian's state of mind? The rest of the band's attitude towards the material?

I've always felt this was a board dedicated to the group (and anything directly or tangentially related to it).

Talking only "about the music" would get boring very quickly, especially for those with not expertise or interest in any kind of music theory.

[HeyJude]

Scott, it may seem that way but a lot of the Mike talk is not without facts.

Mike was a major player in all those topics and he wasn't quiet about it.

Thank you. Well and simply put. There are some crackpot comments and groan-inducing personal attacks. But there is plenty (the majority I would say) of commentary coming from intelligent people making intelligent points.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I'll let that pic Swedish Frog's posted speak for me )

I'm also of the mind that when two sides are basically accusing each other of doing the exact same thing ....... both sides are likely right.

I'm heading over to Club Kokomo! Bruce is handing out free Pacificos for the first 10 people at the bar!!

Bruce doesn't hand out free ANYTHING! It's all about the free market baby. Buy your own drinks!

He buys you the first one (well, the club pays) and then 10 beers down the line you realize you're buying them for yourself AND Bruce

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Here's the thing... every member of the band has made major mistakes, and in many cases done things that I'd react very negatively to if they did that in my presence (except perhaps Dave, as he seems to be the one member of the band that nobody ever has anything bad to say about, and with seeming good reason). What I don't get is that there seems to be a very 'black or white' attitude, where if Brian's your favorite member, you automatically hate Mike, and if you like Mike, then, well, you're a 'Kokomoist' and are biased against Brian. Why in the hell does it have to be one or the other?! And yeah, there is a vast difference between rightly criticizing Mike for some of the decisions he has made, and calling him 'sad' and 'pathetic' like in a post on a previous page. The first is acceptable, the latter IMHO is not, unless you happen to know him personally, in which case go right ahead.  Truth be told...yeah, Brian's my favorite member of the band, and in fact is my favorite songwriter of all time. I have a bit of an obsession with his voice to the point where I'd rather hear a 'bad' vocal from Brian than a 'good' vocal from anybody else. Thing is...I don't let that cloud my judgment. I'm not going to act like Brian is God and the rest of the band were just riding his coattails. ALL of them were and are extremely talented vocalists and writers and deserve credit ;Brian was just on another level entirely, but that does NOT take away from the other members. That's how I feel, and nobody is going to be able to change how I feel any more than I could convince those who hate Mike that Looking Back with Love is an underrated album (which I do feel is the case). You know what? That's okay....we're not all going to like the same sh*t. But posts about how Mike is a 'talentless hack' (NOT my words, I'm quoting) or how Brian 'can't do anything on his own' and 'everything is ghost-written' and the 'wife and managers control everything' (ditto), well...unless you were *there*, then such speculation is talking out of your ass, and is just that...speculation. I for one am not going to form personal opinions on people I've never met and denigrate others based on hearsay. Why? Because I wasn't there . I don't know Brian personally (wish I did, but I don't), I don't know Mike personally (ditto), but am friends with people who know both, but... quite frankly what goes on behind the scenes, although fascinating, is none of our bloody business.

[drbeachboy]

I agree with wirestone, its this strange cult of Mike followers that make any positive praise of BW hard to do.

Brian deserves all the praise in the world. What I don't like is when that praise is at the expense of the rest of the band. It seems Brianista's need to teardown everyone else, especially if they have to defend Brian when his Sainthood is even slightly tarnished.


Billy, right on the money. Well said!

[CenturyDeprived]

Scott, it may seem that way but a lot of the Mike talk is not without facts.

Mike was a major player in all those topics and he wasn't quiet about it.

Thank you. Well and simply put. There are some crackpot comments and groan-inducing personal attacks. But there is plenty (the majority I would say) of commentary coming from intelligent people making intelligent points.

I think the exchange of ideas, thoughts, and speculations about a particular band is interesting, as different viewpoints get exchanged. Sometimes the thoughts aren’t pretty, but as long as people posting don’t lose their cool, avoid sarcasm, and act like intelligent adults despite disagreement, I don’t see simple conversation as being a bad thing in and of itself, even if someone in the band is being pointed out for something negative. It's entirely different from "bashing", which I certainly see some people do.

And I do get it that some points seem to be repeated, a la Brian’s Shortenin’ Bread riff. But to whatever degree that points seem to be repeated, I’ll say that if I repeat a thought from another thread, it’s my view of how it might newly apply to something else in context. Not like some “throwback Thursday” post where a prior post is randomly repeated with no context.  For as much grief as I might give to my thoughts about some of Mike’s actions in various posts, I’m also someone who at numerous points has gone out of my way to defend Mike’s talents in real life conversations with other people (usually people who are ignorant of the deeper details of the band). I don't hate Mike.

And as I’ve said before, I’ve read posts by people on this board at various times which have made me see more positive aspects of Mike, and as a result I’ve walked away with a higher opinion of him at times. I try hard, very hard, to present whatever critical thoughts I have as simply opinions, and I’m always willing to hear intelligent conversation of opposing viewpoints.

[Lee Marshall]

Geez that term Brianista is so off putting.  Brian hears stuff that most don't, can't, won't, and will never hear.  AND he brings it to life.  His arrangements are different than those of his comtemporaries...doesn't matter the era.  That makes him one of a kind and we have all been lucky enough to be on hand...as it happened...so that we could hear it unfold ourselves.  Of course when it didn't happen...we got pissed off about it.  It's kind of like we were addicted to his SOUNDS and went into withdrawl when we weren't provided with more.  Then we reacted by taking it out on whomever was handy and easy to blame.

Brian lucked out having Carl and Dennis for a brother, having Mike for a cousin and David and Al as a neighbour and a friend.  Carl lucked out having David living right across the street.  They all lucked out that the Wilson and Love households encouraged the concepts of playing instruments, singing together and listening to music.  Brian may not have been able to pull it off without the boys who formed the group.  If he had...it would probably have taken a whole lot longer and much of what we heard would never have been realized.

So?  The Beach Boys would not have been all that significant without the songs and the sound.  Those songs and sound would not have been brought to life without the able-bodied participation of those who DID it.  Brian learned how to bring his thing to life with the specific help of his bandmates.  Now he can do it without them.  But that is kind of not all that ethical if the original guys are willing and able and want to do it.  I just don't think that they're all willing, able and want to all that often.  Maybe it's too much work.  Maybe it isn't the direction eveyone wants to take.  Naybe some are satisfied with the body of work as it stands.  It's pretty darned impressive.

Someone suggested that Brian is about the art side of the music...and Mike is about the fun side.  That seems accurate enough...and it has for  about 50 years now.  The twain then will seldom meet.  

Brianista!!!  Rubbish.

[alf wiedersehen]