What's VDP's problem?

[Mikie]

I may have missed the answer to this somewhere along the way, and I apologize if it's been documented here or elsewhere in an interview with Van Dyke recently. A very basic question:

Why didn't Van contribute an essay for the Smile Sessions book?  Did he just want to take a back seat with this and let Brian get all the 'glory' for it? He was in the spotlight briefly and was interviewed back in '04 for BWPS and even showed up for the RFH Smile show in London to a standing ovation. Why did he maintain a somewhat low profile this time for this Beach Boys Smile release?

[hypehat]

Simply put, we don't know. He might consider his work in 2004 to be the final word on the subject. He might just be sick of talking about it. He might have stepped back from proceedings to ensure it went smoothly. But it's all speculation at this point.

[OGoldin]

"Why didn't Van contribute an essay for the Smile Sessions book?  Did he just want to take a back seat with this and let Brian get all the 'glory' for it? He was in the spotlight briefly and was interviewed back in '04 for BWPS and even showed up for the RFH Smile show in London to a standing ovation. Why did he maintain a somewhat low profile this time for this Beach Boys Smile release?"

Only Mr. Doe has suggested that he knows, and he ain't talkin.  I suspect that he feels like he has already been through the accolades for that work, done in the distant past, and doesn't want to be bothered by it this time around -- his contribution is already recognized and honored, and he has already said about Smile what he wants to say.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Only Mr. Doe has suggested that he knows, and he ain't talkin.  

Actually, AGD indicated once in my readings, that someone who made a guess was on the right track. Unfortunately I can't really remember - maybe, something about VDP doing something himself with the Smile material? Can't really recall and nobody else seemed to pick up on it.

[Mikie]

After reading the interview at the top of this thread, it made me think about it again as to why we never saw a VDP essay in the TSS book. Maybe there's still a little animosity that exists between Van Dyke and Mike and/or Brian and like you say he just wants to be absolved of discussing it - maybe it opens up sensitivities again or he's said all he's going to about it. My thoughts are that at minimum, they could have had Van authorize an old interview with statements and publish that in the the TSS book.....  

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

My 2 cents. Please no anger these are just my observations or views. I respect others opinions that don't concur with mine.
Van Dyke always struck me as pretentious and bitter. Even in the 1971 Rolling Stone article he is nasty to Brian. Hey I love Smile and Sail On Sailor but Come To The Sunshine aside nothing else Van Dyke has done entertains me. I just don't like those kind of "too cool for school" people.  Mike isn't an angel, nor has he always done or said the right thing, but he has brought me far more entertainment (pre 1976) than Van Dyke and that's ultimately how I judge artists. I don't really care if someone is a jerk or not. The grooves matter nothing else.

Mike's interest and growth through TM is sincere and if those are his views spiritually why attack that? The good in Brian's relationship with The Beach Boys far outweighs the bad at least if we are talking pre Landy. Even now I think all the surviving Beach Boys do love Brian and he them. They are a family and I for one can relate to their success and (thankfully not currently) their dysfunction.  I am a Beach Boys fan far more than I am of any individual in the band. I think they are special group who really went well together. I'm glad it wasn't just Mike or just Brian or even just Dennis (by far the best on his own) THE BEACH BOYS as a group were the best. If the Grammy's is anything to go by they are going to end it right.

Word.  Another thing that bothered me...why did he put the word 'author' in quotes right in front of your name? I thought that was a bit shitty.

Small problem with your premise here - Brian wasn't dragged kicking and screaming into this C50 project, he was approached and agreed to take part, and right now, he's enjoying it (don't ask how I can be so sure, just accept that if it wasn't so I wouldn't be dumb enough to post it on a public forum) and enjoying being part of a band again. The new album sessions have seemingly been agreeable and proceeded smoothly. I think the album will be nothing less than acceptable.

"Acceptable" doesn't sound particularly optimistic, but I have heard others express hope that the new album will be good. I'm not quite sure I understand the logic. The BBs have not made a decent album in decades. Brian has made several good albums, yet every time he releases something people say they have doubts that it will be any good. I hope, hope, hope that with Brian relatively healthy right now, the new BBs album will be decent. But I don't know how people can necessarily think it will be acceptable, let alone good.

For a long time whenever the BB made an album, there was too much excess baggage for it to be 'good' ( I for one like the post Holland albums for the most part, although not nearly as much as what came before). Whether it was Brian being high/depressed, Dennis and Carl having their own issues, Landy entering the picture, Al & Mike having a falling out...something was always standing in their way. This time, it seems as their legacy is the most important thing to them, and it seems they *want* to go out on top. Never underestimate the power of motivation can have on the quality of a product.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

One more thing...when reading this thread, did anybody else flash back to Brian's drunken version of Barbara Ann, where he says "Van Dyke Parks is the biggest butthole in the world"? I don't know which is funnier...the fact he said that out of nowhere, or the fact that he actually said butthole rather than asshole.

[Disney Boy (1985)]

Wish i could believe that, but anyone else just thinking in their gut: Man this new album is going to be awful.

I wish they'd just drop it. Enough attempts were made to tarnish their rep in the '80's - it'd be so much better if they just STOPPED! Let the bands incredible back catalogue speak for itself. Release more of the (superb) unreleased material from their prime if they really wanna release something.

Yeah it's nice to see 'em getting together in the Do It Again video, but that's the only nice thing about it. I'd just rather they got together in private and finally just left the legacy alone.

[SMiLE Brian]

Wish i could believe that, but anyone else just thinking in their gut: Man this new album is going to be awful.

I wish they'd just drop it. Enough attempts were made to tarnish their rep in the '80's - it'd be so much better if they just STOPPED! Let the bands incredible back catalogue speak for itself. Release more of the (superb) unreleased material from their prime if they really wanna release something.

Yeah it's nice to see 'em getting together in the Do It Again video, but that's the only nice thing about it. I'd just rather they got together in private and finally just left the legacy alone.

No, SIP can't be the last BBs album.

[Mikie]

One more thing...when reading this thread, did anybody else flash back to Brian's drunken version of Barbara Ann, where he says "Van Dyke Parks is the biggest butthole in the world"? I don't know which is funnier...the fact he said that out of nowhere, or the fact that he actually said butthole rather than asshole.

I thought immediately about posting that, but thought it was a little outta context. I think I have a recording of that somewhere. Was it at Ringo Starr's party or somewhere else where Brian said that. Didn't he say it over the PA?

"Brian, cut the sh*t and sit down right here and write this middle-eight!"

[Chocolate Shake Man]

One more thing...when reading this thread, did anybody else flash back to Brian's drunken version of Barbara Ann, where he says "Van Dyke Parks is the biggest butthole in the world"? I don't know which is funnier...the fact he said that out of nowhere, or the fact that he actually said butthole rather than asshole.

I thought immediately about posting that, but thought it was a little outta context. I think I have a recording of that somewhere. Was it at Ringo Starr's party or somewhere else where Brian said that. Didn't he say it over the PA?

"Brian, cut the sh*t and sit down right here and write this middle-eight!"

Yeah, it was Ringo's birthday. Brian was clearly intoxicated. I always thought it was a case of gentle ribbing - that maybe Van Dyke was in the large audience of people laughing along.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I just have to ask.......

Did it make VDP happy in the least when Brian did Smile in 2004 and got VDP standing ovations and got him all over the Beautiful Dreamer docu (and in the best possible light) .... ?

Did it make VDP happy at all that Capitol actually released The Smile Sessions with his lyrics intact and with him credited?

What would be enough at this point for him?

Why does he care that The Beach Boys will be going out there and playing their hits that he had nothing to do with?

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Why does he care that The Beach Boys will be going out there and playing their hits that he had nothing to do with?

He does seem to suggest that what they do artistically could be great. So I think that's the wrong question.

[Autotune]

Mike has criticized VDP's lyrics, and points him as part of an entourage that took his cousin from that safety zone they'd shared in their teenage years.

VDP attacks Mike Love whenever he has the chance. He comes up with the L word even if no one asks him. He does so, for instance, in the recent online interview with O'Hagan.

People far more talented than Parks, who is a great talent himself (and according to many, including  Mike Love, a nice guy), have had their fits of bitterness. Beethoven, for example (why would the biggest musical talent of the world then have to hold bitterness? What did he have to prove?). One can indulge VDP for this most human trait. It can happen to all of us at one time or another.

Let us dig his work and let the man in peace.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Maybe he's afraid they'll be playing some Smile stuff with Mike all enthusiastic and hugging Brian onstage: things like that.

Now, that I could understand bugging him greatly.

[Justin]

Wish i could believe that, but anyone else just thinking in their gut: Man this new album is going to be awful.

Not really.  I'm actually looking forward to it very much, and I was extremely skeptical in the beginning.  But ever since hearing that they are not as single-driven with writing these songs, and that Al has already labeled it "Pet Sounds" level of goodness and the song titles we know of so far aren't cheesey--all point to a well-intended album.  I'm not expecting a masterpeice (but I wouldn't be totally surprised if it happened) but I'm passed the point where I think it's going to be a disaster.

What I"m more worried about is if the album gets finished at all.  In the latest Mike/Brian interview they reveal that the album is half finished.  With them going back to work on it in "a couple weeks" as Mike says, that only leaves them about a month and change till their first show of the tour. I'm not sure how many days they want to devote to rehearsals but I recall Al's expectations some time ago to be several weeks of rehearsals.  I remember him saying in an interview how it takes a lot of work to get a tour going and he's up for the challenge, saying something like "we gotta get in there, rehearse like hell for a few weeks" and get out on the road.  Not sure if Al still feels the same way but it seems like they may have bitten more than they can chew here with anticipating that the album would be done before they get on the road.  I just pray that the songwriting doesn't suffer because of the time restraints or worst of all...the album is shelved.

[Wirestone]

My 2 cents. Please no anger these are just my observations or views. I respect others opinions that don't concur with mine.
Van Dyke always struck me as pretentious and bitter. Even in the 1971 Rolling Stone article he is nasty to Brian. Hey I love Smile and Sail On Sailor but Come To The Sunshine aside nothing else Van Dyke has done entertains me. I just don't like those kind of "too cool for school" people.  Mike isn't an angel, nor has he always done or said the right thing, but he has brought me far more entertainment (pre 1976) than Van Dyke and that's ultimately how I judge artists. I don't really care if someone is a jerk or not. The grooves matter nothing else.

I don't think Van Dyke has ever struck me as bitter. A bit pretentious, sure. That's his schtick; same as Mike's fun in the sun attitude.

I've never seen him as "too cool for school," either. What a curious thing to say. Do you think that the mere possession of a big vocabulary and musical ability means that someone is putting themselves above you? That seems pretty rockist and anti-intellectual to me. I mean, he has labored in the trenches for decades, churning out film scores and arrangements, without a lot to show for it. I don't think that's "too cool" at all -- it's someone who loves their chosen field so much that they have sacrificed for it.

I'm glad that you feel entertained by Mike. He has often been entertaining. But Van Dyke is the only lyricist who has worked with Brian who remotely equaled the music, and Surf's Up, Wonderful, Cabinessence and Heroes and Villains are perhaps the highest peaks of Brian and his band's output. Van Dyke's lyrics and conceptual framework are essential to the best music Brian ever made.

Mike's interest and growth through TM is sincere and if those are his views spiritually why attack that? The good in Brian's relationship with The Beach Boys far outweighs the bad at least if we are talking pre Landy. Even now I think all the surviving Beach Boys do love Brian and he them. They are a family and I for one can relate to their success and (thankfully not currently) their dysfunction.  I am a Beach Boys fan far more than I am of any individual in the band. I think they are special group who really went well together. I'm glad it wasn't just Mike or just Brian or even just Dennis (by far the best on his own) THE BEACH BOYS as a group were the best. If the Grammy's is anything to go by they are going to end it right.

Just because you like a group doesn't make them all equally talented, good or essential. And just because they have shared history doesn't mean that it's automatically right -- artistically or personally -- to collaborate again. The work will show us one way or another. Although Brian's repeated citation of the money to be made can't be reassuring, can it?

[Iron Horse-Apples]

People far more talented than Parks, who is a great talent himself (and according to many, including  Mike Love, a nice guy), have had their fits of bitterness. Beethoven, for example (why would the biggest musical talent of the world then have to hold bitterness?)

Not sure off the top of my head, but it may have to do with the fact he went completely deaf. You're right of course though. That miserable f*@ker should have torn up the Heiligenstadt testament and just got on with things.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I've never seen him as "too cool for school," either. What a curious thing to say. Do you think that the mere possession of a big vocabulary and musical ability means that someone is putting themselves above you? That seems pretty rockist and anti-intellectual to me. I mean, he has labored in the trenches for decades, churning out film scores and arrangements, without a lot to show for it. I don't think that's "too cool" at all -- it's someone who loves their chosen field so much that they have sacrificed for it.

 I don't think that came across as 'rockist' and 'anti-intellectual' at all. I can't speak for Mike, but his seeming pretentiousness annoys the hell out of me, and anyone who thinks I myself am 'anti-intellectual' knows jack sh*t about me, and I would take offense to that.

Just because you like a group doesn't make them all equally talented, good or essential.

Just my opinion, but liking them has nothing to do with it. One just has to listen to Sunflower, for instance, to know that they really were a special group who went really well together.

As for Brian's bringing up of money, well... Mike's been talking a lot about the artistic side of the band, hasn't he? Considering Brian and Mike's rather wry senses of humor, doesn't anybody else think in a way they're fucking with us?

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

"I'm glad that you feel entertained by Mike. He has often been entertaining. But Van Dyke is the only lyricist who has worked with Brian who remotely equaled the music"

Can't agree with this at all.

If you're ONLY talking about the Smile music: maybe so (and even then it's arguable)

The most stirring and emotional parts of Smile for me are both Our Prayer, Good Vibrations and Surfs Up, and VDP only had something to do with one of those songs.

I think Mike, Gary Usher, Tony Asher, Roger Christian were all up to the task as well and they're words are as important to Brian's music as the music.

[Custom Machine]

A very basic question:

Why didn't Van contribute an essay for the Smile Sessions book?  Did he just want to take a back seat with this and let Brian get all the 'glory' for it? He was in the spotlight briefly and was interviewed back in '04 for BWPS and even showed up for the RFH Smile show in London to a standing ovation. Why did he maintain a somewhat low profile this time for this Beach Boys Smile release?

Another possibility ... Maybe Van did contribute an essay for the Smile Sessions box.  Maybe parts of it sounded like his recent diatribe and he was asked to modify it but he refused, causing it to be rejected.

[anazgnos]

I've just been assuming there was some conflict over money or rights or something.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I'm just glad I'm not still raked over the coals for some stupid merda I did or said when I was still in my mid 20's!

Sheesh!

[rab2591]

[Mikie]

A very basic question:

Why didn't Van contribute an essay for the Smile Sessions book?  Did he just want to take a back seat with this and let Brian get all the 'glory' for it? He was in the spotlight briefly and was interviewed back in '04 for BWPS and even showed up for the RFH Smile show in London to a standing ovation. Why did he maintain a somewhat low profile this time for this Beach Boys Smile release?

Another possibility ... Maybe Van did contribute an essay for the Smile Sessions box.  Maybe parts of it sounded like his recent diatribe and he was asked to modify it but he refused, causing it to be rejected.

That very well could be, CM.

My favorite Van Dyke Parks moment:

Standing in front of Tower Records on Sunset Blvd. talking about the Beach Boys coming off the road and "people were making fun of them - they were wearing tennies". And referring to the surf lyrics of the past as "dim widdie pearl" or whatever it was. He said, "But the Beach Boys were denied they were ever at the beach."

"Dennis Wilson - he had a lotta meat - he could take me like straw in the wind".   Ha Ha Ha!   Always liked that one from VDP.