hi there

[cube_monkey]

Just wanted to introduce myself and say how I am astonished at all the great tidbits here.  I thought I knew a few things about the Smiley Smile era. I see now I do not.  But after "wasting" hours  [ok, i couldn't pull away!]  I now know the mixing board used for Smiley Smile.  I am sure a person with a life wouldn't care.  But i find this stuff totally fascinating. Just amazing knowledge here.

My first BB album was shutdown vol 2. my baby sitter gave it o me.  Wore it out, and some of the tracks on there got me interested in recording.  I had no idea about styles or current culture ( I think this was 68?)  so no one told me the BB's weren't cool.    Then I went to the Rexal drug store and picked up Smiley Smile.  Ok, this was a tad different.  Totally did not "get it",  but i really loved it -- whatever the hell it was.  Then Wild Honey, which I loved the organ sounds on the title track.  Then I got into the beatles, who, king crimson, and the BB's were on the back burner.  I was at my friends house, his big brother bought albums (this is how we got exposed to stuff). and we were sitting around on a summer day,  and the Pet Sounds/Carl and the Passions LP package was on the shelf.  Gee, who are carl and the passions? lets put it on...OMG,  I was not ready for the rawness of the first track. And it took me awhile to realize this was the beach boys.  Today, its in my top 10 albums. so much for taste eh?    Now If i can figure out how they get the drums so in  your face on Here She Comes, I will be happy. lol.  I have to wonder, who mixed that, My God, lets mix Blondie right out of it!  No room reverb or anything to bring the vocals out a tad. But hey, whatever. I still like it.


I just wanted to add some information here, because I have been overloaded with so much, I would like to contribute some back.  I had some email conversations with Steve Desper
and Carol Kaye.
I bought Steve's Spacializer thing, oh about 10 years ago.  I didn't like the midrange tone it produce, so I emailed him.  We got into a good discussion, and I asked about the CD's that
came out.  He was against  Surfs up and Sunflower because  him or the bb's had no input or got to listen to the mastering or anything.    just a FYI.

A more interesting conversation was with Carol Kaye. I had emailed her about something bass related, we were chatting and Of course I asked about who was playing on the early
records. (didnt have this site then ).  I asked her if Carl played the solo on Surfin' USA.  She says no, Billy Strange (he did the theme from the munsters), did it.  So I said,  ok, but
in Musician magazine in (I think 1982)  Carl did a short interview, I think it was on the last page.  And the interviewer asked if he played the solo on Surfin USA.  Carl seemed (from what i remember) was put back and said OF COURSE!.  
I mentioned this to Carol, and she said well, they can't say they don't play on their records because of their image and the "kids".  I said,  yea, maybe back in the early 50's, but not now,
and from all I have seen and heard about Carl, he is not one to boast.  She replied with "I was there".   I saw a post here that she was not even on the scene there until much later.
Although she said she had the AFM sheet for the session.     Just more info.

Jay

[Andrew G. Doe]

Short answer on CK - she's an amazing musician who deserves all the kudos she gets for her studio work.

However...

Her recall is sometimes faulty and her attitude when corrected is deplorable - essentially "I was there, you weren't and how dare you contradict me". She has, of course, also made some highly contentious claims about playing on sixties MoTown hits.

As for the AFM sheet for "Surfin' USA", if she was there then she wasn't listed. Also, David Marks doesn't recall anyone outside of the band playing guitar.

[buddhahat]

Greetings, Cube Monkey!

[Shady]

Hello and Welcome!!

[GeorgeFellInHisHorn]

so what mixing board was used on smiley smile? 

[Jon Stebbins]

A more interesting conversation was with Carol Kaye. I had emailed her about something bass related, we were chatting and Of course I asked about who was playing on the early
records. (didnt have this site then ).  I asked her if Carl played the solo on Surfin' USA.  She says no, Billy Strange (he did the theme from the munsters), did it.  So I said,  ok, but
in Musician magazine in (I think 1982)  Carl did a short interview, I think it was on the last page.  And the interviewer asked if he played the solo on Surfin USA.  Carl seemed (from what i remember) was put back and said OF COURSE!.  
I mentioned this to Carol, and she said well, they can't say they don't play on their records because of their image and the "kids".  I said,  yea, maybe back in the early 50's, but not now,
and from all I have seen and heard about Carl, he is not one to boast.  She replied with "I was there".   I saw a post here that she was not even on the scene there until much later.
Although she said she had the AFM sheet for the session.     Just more info.

Jay

This is not really info...its a solidly debunked claim. Sorry Carol is sticking to this as its been clearly shown to be untrue. Forget the AFM...just listen to the session tapes. Carl Wilson and David Marks play the guitars on everything through that period. Carol didn't play on any BB's session until 1/64...a year after SUSA was recorded. This is sad business.

[cube_monkey]

Oh yea, Carol is a great bass player. and i do love her playing on those albums.  as a kid,  that pick bass stood out.  much more to me than the guitars . thats why i became a bass player.   that and Mccartney's bass on SGT pepper. 

Also as you all know from the Endless Harmony dvd ( or is it the other one),  Carl is shown on stage in a clip playing it. Actually I can play it.
I think this comes down to some people underrate Carl and dennis's playing. I know this has been discussed before.  But even though I like drummers
like billy cobham, bill bruford, Ricky fataar,  I really like dennis's drumming.  I haven't figured out how when I listen to tracks from Wild Honey or
Smiley Smiley still,  it fools me into thinking its a full band, but its like JUST a bass, or bass and piano.  And who doesn't love the extensive flurry
of percussion on Country Air?  Its perfect.  Maybe because I have heard it since childhood and STILL listen. lol

No, I know now Carol's memory isn't good. ahem. i am in my 50's and if you ask my wife...um...lets not go there.  And to her credit, she actually
will answer your questions and stuff. Especially about playing.

WHAT?  YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT MIXING BOARD WAS USED ON SMILEY SMILE??  (cough).   DOESN'T EVERY ONE KNOW THAT?
 ITS a radio broadcast board. a Gates    Duralux 2 channel thing.  It is probably better than the old tube abbey road boards in terms of flexibility. dunno.

[Jon Stebbins]

Oh yea, Carol is a great bass player. and i do love her playing on those albums.  as a kid,  that pick bass stood out.  much more to me than the guitars . thats why i became a bass player

She is great. Wondering which tracks on "those albums" you like her playing on?

[bgas]

Oh yea, Carol is a great bass player. and i do love her playing on those albums.  as a kid,  that pick bass stood out.  much more to me than the guitars . thats why i became a bass player

She is great. Wondering which tracks on "those albums" you like her playing on?

I like her on the one after 909

[cube_monkey]

I like her playing on basically any of the BB songs.  Not that the parts are complex, but i just like the sound of that bass.  Oh, yea, I like
her playing on the Hogans Heroes theme. she makes the bass sound like a tuba.  


 I have never heard her on a jazz record (which is her main focus).  She produced an album  for Joe Pass and played on it. Here is the critics take:

http://www.allmusic.com/album/better-days-r259443   

I am betting her instructional material is great. She really wants to help people.  She knows Jass/Bebop theory  which says alot.

[Jon Stebbins]

I like her playing on basically any of the BB songs.  Not that the parts are complex, but i just like the sound of that bass. 

But what you're saying is that there is a distinct audible difference between her bass performances on BB's material, as opposed to Brian Wilson's or Al Jardine's or Ray Pohlman's or Lyle Ritz' or Larry Knetchel's or Joe Chemay's or Jimmy Bond's or Joe Osborne's or Ron Brown's or James Guercio's or Blondie Chaplin's or Ed Carter's or the many, many great bass players who have performed on BB's material. Given that, i'm interested to know which songs with Carol's bass stand out in your mind?

[cube_monkey]

Remember, I am talking how the bass sounds.  I'd say Fun Fun Fun,  I get Around to start.  Brian was great of course early on, especially when you hear the live material, i thought he and dennis rocked. 

[Andrew G. Doe]

Remember, I am talking how the bass sounds.  I'd say Fun Fun Fun,  I get Around to start.  Brian was great of course early on, especially when you hear the live material, i thought he and dennis rocked. 

She's not on "FFF": bass on that is probably Ray Pohlman, maybe Alan.

[hypehat]

Not only could Carol's basslines be a multitude of other session dudes, they aren't just Carol by herself - Brian had two or three bassists on a session, for the 'big' stuff.

[c-man]

Remember, I am talking how the bass sounds.  I'd say Fun Fun Fun,  I get Around to start.  Brian was great of course early on, especially when you hear the live material, i thought he and dennis rocked. 

She's not on "FFF": bass on that is probably Ray Pohlman, maybe Alan.

Nor is she on "I Get Around".  I'm pretty sure Al  Jardine plays Fender bass and Ray Pohlman plays Dano bass on both of those.
To me, the best "Carol Kaye" bass playing on a BBs record (tone-wise) is "Sloop John B.".  THAT'S one where the pick-on-strings attack REALLY stands out.
In regards to the "Surfin' USA" AFM contract:  yes, Carol's name is on it...only thing is, it's not the contract for the BBs version, but rather one of countless cover versions by other people...this one from 1964, a full year after the original BBs recording.

[southisland]

does CK really play on "i was made to love her"? i think i saw that claim somewhere on the internet and it surprised me, from the stripped-down vibe of it i thought wild honey was mostly BBs performances, although i'm sort of illiterate on personnel issues like that so i could be wrong.

[desmondo]

Welcome to the board

[smokeythebear]

Seem to remember a CK  about the doors not playing on their own albums so the womans memory is not what it should be. Sure they overdubbed the bass because Rays fender keyboard bass was conciderd to weak for recording, except for When the musics over. So Larry Knechtel overdubbed the first album, on the other albums they used session bassplayers, even Jerry Scheff (Elvis old bass player) but its a long stretch saying they didnt play on their own records.

[Jon Stebbins]

Remember, I am talking how the bass sounds.  I'd say Fun Fun Fun,  I get Around to start.  Brian was great of course early on, especially when you hear the live material, i thought he and dennis rocked.  

I guess you might have gathered that my point is, like you, many people assume they are hearing Wrecking Crew musicians on the tracks you chose when in fact the Beach Boys are playing 90% of the instruments on those two tracks. The bass on Fun Fun Fun and on I Get Around is Al Jardine and Ray Pohlman. Carol did play on a number of great BB's tracks, but no where near as many as well meaning fans like you might assume. Don't trust the conventional wisdom because when it comes to who played on BB's sessions new research has turned that conventional wisdom on its head.

[DonnyL]

Remember, I am talking how the bass sounds.  I'd say Fun Fun Fun,  I get Around to start.  Brian was great of course early on, especially when you hear the live material, i thought he and dennis rocked.  

I guess you might have gathered that my point is, like you, many people assume they are hearing Wrecking Crew musicians on the tracks you chose when in fact the Beach Boys are playing 90% of the instruments on those two tracks. The bass on Fun Fun Fun and on I Get Around is Al Jardine and Ray Pohlman. Carol did play on a number of great BB's tracks, but no where near as many as well meaning fans like you might assume. Don't trust the conventional wisdom because when it comes to who played on BB's sessions new research has turned that conventional wisdom on its head.

Yeh, i tend to agree with you here!  The Wrecking Crew were indispensible, GREAT musicians BUT ... they were for-hire.  and in my opinion, most of the Beach Boys' "sound" came from Brian Wilson's production style.  You can even hear Brian on the sessions telling Carol to get more highs on the bass, when to turn them off/on, etc.  The proof is in the pudding; no other '60s records sound like the Beach Boys' ... the same session players appear on countless other '60s hits, many recorded at the same studios, etc.  For instance, you can tell by listening to the records that Brian was not fond of sounds like hi-hats and certain standard elements that you hear on other records from the era ... records like Jan and Dean, etc, using the same musicians.  I think that Dennis' drumming style kind of developed over time to work with Brian's vision and carried through Dennis' entire career with the group.  the Wrecking Crew were great because they knew how to translate Brian's ideas and concepts into something tangible ... and indeed, that is what they were hired for!  They were pros.  But you know what?  So were the Beach Boys.

I had an epiphany when I found out that the boys themselves were the core band on tracks like "Then I Kissed Her" -- I think examples like that track say it all.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I had an epiphany when I found out that the boys themselves were the core band on tracks like "Then I Kissed Her" -- I think examples like that track say it all.

Um... none of the band play a note on "Then I Kissed Her". Sorry.

[guitarfool2002]

To me, the best "Carol Kaye" bass playing on a BBs record (tone-wise) is "Sloop John B.".  THAT'S one where the pick-on-strings attack REALLY stands out.

When I transcribed that bassline, I was surprised to find out she was tuned down 1/2 step (or a 'semitone' on the Hoffman board... )  for that session. I just assumed most of those sessions were done in standard tuning for some reason.

There is an audible "punch" on Sloop's bass track that is more pronounced than on similar sessions. I'm wondering if the drop tuning making the strings a little more loose contributed to that sound, and wondering if this was done on other tracks as well.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

Remember, I am talking how the bass sounds.  I'd say Fun Fun Fun,  I get Around to start.  Brian was great of course early on, especially when you hear the live material, i thought he and dennis rocked. 

Soon, you'll learn not to voice your opinion on here, because people will tell you you're wrong, or they'll be pricks about it. As you've probably already seen.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Remember, I am talking how the bass sounds.  I'd say Fun Fun Fun,  I get Around to start.  Brian was great of course early on, especially when you hear the live material, i thought he and dennis rocked. 

Soon, you'll learn not to voice your opinion on here, because people will tell you you're wrong, or they'll be pricks about it. As you've probably already seen.

Opinions are fine. Debunked myths are not. 

[rab2591]

Remember, I am talking how the bass sounds.  I'd say Fun Fun Fun,  I get Around to start.  Brian was great of course early on, especially when you hear the live material, i thought he and dennis rocked. 

Soon, you'll learn not to voice your opinion on here, because people will tell you you're wrong, or they'll be pricks about it. As you've probably already seen.

It's better to be told "You're wrong" than to go through life believing something that isn't true. I've been corrected numerous times on this site - and I'm glad I was corrected.