Denny and Tex

[?]

I think Ed Saunders mentioned this in "The Family" but I could be wrong.

Anything written by Ed Sanders should be taken with a giant grain of salt.  I have zero respect for his book.  Trying to link Manson to The Process was preposterous and, as he found out, libelous.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

yeah, but I had this one tidbit mentioned by a more reliable source  

[18thofMay]

It's worth noting and I've mentioned it before that Dennis did NOT believe Charlie was behind the murders. The more I look into the case the more I believe this may be true. As you mention drugs can only brainwash a person to a certain point. You simply cannot brainwash a person to become a killer through LSD. The CIA tried this with the MK - Ultra project and failed. Are we to believe a smelly ex con achieved in a little over a year what the US Government's top scientists, with millions of dollars at their disposal over a period of a decade could not?

Unless someone can present me with solid proof otherwise , I'll stick with the theory that the murders were drug burn related. Manson may or may not have had a hand in them - with all the BS that surrounded the case it was never proved conclusively either way. Forget personal opinion on Manson (he was a thief, conman, freeloader, egotistical nutjob etc), it's clear he didnot receive a fair trial.
[/quote]

It worked on Mark Chapman!!

[hypehat]

This shows at best that he was highly amoral.

Charlie Manson? Amoral? No sh*t.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

And Sirhan Sirhan, right?

BTW, George W. Bush sent our troops off to kill how many countless innocent people for his own criminal reasons, and he's free as a bird?

He'd be Manson's cellmate if there was any justice in this world.

[18thofMay]

And Sirhan Sirhan, right?

BTW, George W.Bush sent our troops off to kill how many countless innocent people for his own criminal reasons, and he's free as a bird?

He'd be Manson's cellmate if there was any justice in this world.

100% agreed. Rumsfield and Cheeney can join him!

[Mike's Beard]

I think Ed Saunders mentioned this in "The Family" but I could be wrong.

Anything written by Ed Sanders should be taken with a giant grain of salt.  I have zero respect for his book.  Trying to link Manson to The Process was preposterous and, as he found out, libelous.

Get the UK edition, all the Process baloney is still in it.

This shows at best that he was highly amoral.

Charlie Manson? Amoral? No merda.

Walked into that one didn't I? I was just trying to make the distinction between amoral and evil.

Mike's Beard, you're funny!  You and Vince Bugliosi should sit down and have a coupla beers together.

I have much respect for the Bug, why, after Stephen King he's my favourite fiction writer.

[CosmicDancer]

Sorry to go on and on. I just find this topic endlessly fascinating.

Same here!  I have been mildly obsessed with it ever since I saw a documentary 16-17 years ago.  Of course, the Beach Boys and Beatles tie in made it even more fascinating.

I've always wondered if any of the remaining Family members ever harassed Dennis after the trial and convictions.  Until they went to prison for their own crimes, it seems to me as if Squeeky and Sandy Good, who have always remained loyal to Charlie, were still trying to do high profile things to spring Charlie out.  I just wonder if anything involving Dennis ever took place.

As far as the Tate/LaBianca murders go, it's all so murky now that I doubt the participants even remember 100% of the truth about those two nights.  I do think the whole Helter Skelter motive is shaky at best.  I do believe that Bugliosi had a week case, which he admits he did early on in the trail, and fabricated parts of the story.  That's not to say that I think Charlie, Tex and the girls are innocent, I just don't think it went down totally like history now says it did.  There have been to many inconsistencies in the stories along the way.  That's not to say that I know the answers, far from it, I just think the absolute truth is still floating around somewhere in the atmosphere more than likely never to be found.

I do think the Tate murders centered more around a drug burn.  IMO, they were probably after Frykowski, who was certainly involved in the CA drug culture at the time, and the others were in the wrong place at the wrong time.   I also believe that despite what some experts tell us, the Polanskis and their pals weren't anywhere near as innocent in their lifestyles as we are lead to believe.  They were all dabbling in drugs if nothing else.  I'd be willing to bet that even if brief and/or minor, the victims had interacted with family members in the past.

The LaBiancas are a bit more difficult to figure out.  There have been plenty of stories of Leno being involved heavily in mob affairs and gambling.  There is talk of a "black book" that Charlie wanted from him.  Who knows?  It's a mystery.  Before this thread, I don't recall ever reading about the possibility of Rosemary being involved in selling drugs.  Interesting.

I don't think Charlie is innocent by any means, especially if he did go with for the LaBianca murders.  I just think that the girls and Tex (along with Beauselei (sp?), Clem and all of the others jumped on the Helter Skelter train in order to shift blame from themselves onto Charlie in hopes of getting out someday (and it worked for Clem!).  I believe they all are where they belong.  I don't believe in the death penalty, but I have no problem at all with life in prison for crimes such as theirs.  Also, though I believe she was an integral part of the conviction of the others, I think Linda Kasabian got away with murder, or at least being an accessory, by turning states evidence.  I don't think she is the little miss innocent that the Bug turned her into either.

I'm just interested in knowing the truth though I'm sure it will never be fully revealed.  Even Kasabian fudged some case facts in the 40th anniversary specials in '09.  Between her, the Bug and Debra Tate (don't get me started on her!  She isn't half the woman her mother and sister Patti were) too many untruths that are taken to be factual have been spread about this case for the truth to see the light at this point.

Sorry to have strayed so far from the topic.  I just always enjoy a good Manson thread!  At least I did put in something Dennis related.

For those that are interested, there a couple of very interesting Manson case blogs that I look at a lot that are full of interesting facts.  Check them out if you are interested in the case.  Here they are:

http://tatelabianca.blogspot.com/  Tons of info archived here.  About 5 years worth of interesting articles.
http://www.eviliz.com/  this one is updated more frequently presently.

Edit:  Just to clarify, in saying that I don't believe the Polanskis and other victims lived the innocent lifestyles we are led to believe, I AM NOT saying that they deserved what happened to them.  Nobody, regardless of anything they have done wrong in life, deserves that kind of brutality.  I just wanted to clarify that.

[Mike's Beard]

Great post summed up my feelings exactly. Too much inconsistency in the the principal participant's statements. For example since the 90's Krenwinke has said as to why the caretaker wasn't killed;

a/ "I tried the door to the guesthouse but it was locked and I couldn't enter."
b/ "I entered the guesthouse, but it was empty".
c/ "I got halfway up the path to the guesthouse when I has a flash of conscious and realised what we were doing was wrong".

Get your story straight Pat!

Kasabian was spoonfed by Buglosi what to say on the stand, parroting parts of Sadie's withdrawn testimony. Speaking of Sadie, knife or no knife her claim that she entered the bedroom where Tate and Sebring were and marched them to the main room - Jay was an average sized guy - Sadie weighed about 120 pounds and half of that was in her tits. He could have wrestled the knife off her fairly easily.

[dennyschild]

I just think the absolute truth is still floating around somewhere in the atmosphere more than likely never to be found.


I agree. We'll never know the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

[sherryluvsbrian]

Wrong way round. Dennis introduced Tex to Manson. Manson and co were already staying at Dennis's home when one day Dennis was hitchhiking (the family had wrecked both of his cars!) and was picked up by Tex Watson. Dennis told Watson all about Manson and insisted that he meet him for himself.

That's what  the article said. I learn more everyday. Thanks.

In case you come back looking around. Dennis had nothing to do with any murders. He was smart and got away from them months befor.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

And Sirhan Sirhan, right?

BTW, George W.Bush sent our troops off to kill how many countless innocent people for his own criminal reasons, and he's free as a bird?

He'd be Manson's cellmate if there was any justice in this world.

100% agreed. Rumsfield and Cheeney can join him!

I also agree. And throw, Eisenhower and LBJ in there as well. Obama could be next.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Toss in Henry Kissinger, Paul Wolfowitz, Colin Powell, and Condi Rice as well!

[Mike's Beard]

"You're gonna need a bigger cell". 

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Nah, let em spend their remaining days in a cramped version of a Twister game.

[Jason Penick]

Question for mike's gut and AvanTodd; why are both of you convinced that Manson had no affiliation with the Process Church of the Final Judgement?  I'm not saying I doubt either of you, but I enjoyed the Sanders book and was curious as to why you were both so sure that the Process stuff was b.s.

Anyway, regarding the goings-on at the Polanski house and other locations, here's an excerpt from a letter Charlie wrote to noted Hollywood gossip columnist William Dakota.  I published the contents of this rare correspondence over on my blog www.crystalsphere1.blogspot.com, but I'm not sure how many people actually read it.  I should stress that the following are the exact words of Charles Manson, and are re-printed by Dakota directly from his letter.

Elvis couldn't f*** over me but I could-over any little fat girl in his dream bed because I earned them when I lived at Tom Mix's old beach house on Sunset out by the beach. We had a pool of naked beauties and strobe lights in the living room & sex in 5 bedrooms & all closets had secret doors that go from bedroom to bedroom plus the guest house, big beds & pool shacks-bedrooms, little ones and mattresses in the living room, a tree house, sex all over the grounds, in the rose garden, under the trees everywhere...  Neil Diamond used to come over, Mike Love of the Beachboys, Doris Day's son, Angela Lansbury's daughter, DeeDee, Nancy Sinatra's daughter used to be at the beach pad. Dennis Wilson of (the Beach Boys) & I lived with 15 or 20 of the best. We kicked Jane Fonda out of that dream because her jewish boyfriend wanted to bring a black guy to play ping-pong with her & I said I don't play mixing blood for phony christians that work for their money selling children. She had a big dog and a crummy camera & I said no no, I do what I do for love, not money...  They had a key to Red Skelton's beach pad. I had been there before, so I went and fixed the window so I could look in and they found my peek place. I just wanted to see what they did with the dog & guy they picked up over at UCLA, I don't think she was playing stop the war. She was (I think) making some kind of video tapes like Peter Sellers & Yul Brynner (bald headed guy) were making. Dennis gave me a $5,000 video tape, TV thing for tapes that fit only an elite bunch (porno ring) that was world wide...  I heard Polanski got money from dog and children movies to make movies with...  There is more but I can't spell. Like one night a girl took me to Elvis' pad...with big iron gates & she was begging to suck on my ice cream. Elvis's wife came home that night and when Dennis Wilson came around he had so many broads. Elvis got afraid, cause that little girl had his heart. I could have eaten it there in front of them but was playing a front & I was having sex in the back. I could have f***ed him. He had a car I wanted but Terry Melcher gave one of my buddies a new XKZ Jaguar, for me because he didn't want anyone to know about me & his mom, & when D Wilson gave me the Ferrari my other buddy wrecked it & we went off to shoot a game of pool & someone ripped it off...  And Dennis is (a wonderful person no bullshit) he got mad at me. He had a phony French bitch running after him only because she was a star f*cker & was fucking Jimi Hendrix. When she asked me to f*** her I rammed it up her ass & wiped it in her face & throwed her out of the pad because all she wanted was money money money...

That's the main excerpt.  The rest is available on my blog for anybody interested.

[MBE]

I highly doubt he knew Elvis!

[Jason Penick]

Yeah, well, who's to say though?  Unless you were running with that particular crowd at the time, it's really impossible to say who knew who.

[Mike's Beard]

Jason, at one point in '67-'68 Manson and co were living in very close proximity to The Process headquarters. One of the main duties of the lower level Process members was to sell their literature on the street to fund the commune. Manson undoubtedly picked up one of these magazines in passing one day and cribbed some of their philosophies to add to his repertoire of pseudo hippie sermons.

Most Process members had to live under VERY strict guidelines set out by Mary Ellen and Robert De Grimson, the church's leaders. No sex, no drugs and doing whatever was asked of you without question. Hardly sounds like Charlie's bag now does it? 

Saunder's book was an enjoyable if frustrating read. Remember much of his gossip sources came from a guy called "White Rabbit" who is full of it. He's the guy who convinced authorities a couple of years ago that there were dozens of dead bodies buried behind Spahn and Barker Ranch. A massive dig took place and nothing was found. Zilch. Zero. He's also a convicted pedoass.

I highly doubt he knew Elvis!

Charlie claimed to have played cards at Elvis's mansion. Don't be so suprised, Charlie was hobnobbing with everyone at the time. Melcher was in a lot deeper with him then he would ever admit.