The Smiley Smile Message Board

August, 1992. I find the new Beach Boys album in the bins in Stuart Florida. Cool. But Hurricane Andrew is coming ashore and I run the CD over and over while wind and rain beat 'gainst the house thru the night. Pleased as it sinks in with repetition. Well alright, sounds like my old friends are back. The record becomes the soundtrack to our summers in FLA.

Another August, 23 years later, stuck in Nanjing days before school begins, I crank it up and reflect.

Yeah, I don't really like the sequencing. Should open with the fade up to Island Fever and its invitation to "get away."

Then into the ballsy remake of Surfin' - some energy here, sadly lacking in so much the Boys had produced since Holland

Summer of Love is a hoot, tongue firmly in cheek - ridiculous Superbad dudes looking to get laid - funny, and those background vocals - yes!

I never felt the Hot Fun cover adds anything to Sly's original, in fact kinda shied away from the cut, but works better here then as album opener and I think I'm warming to it.

Under the Boardwalk - nice work - love it love it.

Slow Dancing - extends the romanticism of Boardwalk - I can still see the night, the stars, Japanese lanterns on the pier at Cocoa Beach.

Strange Things Happen - a standout track (Funky Pretty's Pisces Lady take's it all a step higher - the Rio conference was supposed to address environmental issues, it didn't, but the cosmically conscious among us understand the unity of being). I love the ride out. A totally psychedelic track.

Still Surfin' quoting Don't Worry Baby comes across as an elegy. Surfer Joe, of course, was the flip side to the Safari's Wipeout (or was it the Chantay's pipeline?). A garage rock classic in which the protagonist ends up in the Marines. Now we meet the Viet Vet back on his board, eco-conscious. But who is the "pretty little seniorita" referenced in the lyric?

Walking in the Sand - who did this originally? Not the Ronettes, they were Walking in the Rain. Check out the "Little Girl I Once Knew" in the lyric. Actually, the album is littered with musical and lyrical references. Another energetic remake.

Lahaina Aloha - Another standout track - Carl's finest moment in this collection.

Kokomo - Well, of course this set is the natural home for this key latter BB track, recapping and fulfilling the invite of Island Fever.

Summer In Paradise - This one sure sounded like the Beach Boy's "Let It Be" back in 1992 and still does. A bittersweet ending to the set of tunes presented here, its message of aging, loss and regret all the more resonant today. "Bring us back our Summer in Paradise."

Oh, was there a remake of Forever on this record?   FAGEDDABOUDIT! Not in my mix.

Anyway, a dam good collection of tunes, despite the general dismissal and scorn it receives. The best, in fact, Beach Boys album between Holland and That's Why God Made the Radio.

You know, I've been afraid to say it on this board, but I enjoy SIP. It has some really pleasant songs. I think had BB85, Still Crusin', and SIP had better production, they'd be considered classics. Well... Summer Of Love could've been excluded.

I wouldn't say it's the best LP between Holland and TWGMTR. I think that title goes to Love You (One of the all-time best albums, EVER)

If Summer In Paradise is one thing, it's fun. Friends is mellow, Pet Sounds is introspective, Sunflower is collaborative. SIP is fun. Well... Summer In Love isn't... It's just creepy.  :-\

I will say, I like Summer in Paradise more than Beach Boys 85.

It has some pretty good material but some of the other stuff is just diabolical. Strange Things Happen may not be much but it has that Beach Boys je ne sais quoi about it. Al's vocal on the chorus ("every time I touch my baby, strange things happen") is just AWESOME. That's one of my favorite vocals of his, even if it's just a few words.

Okay, I'm pissed. I saw the title on this thread and thought there was a recall out for SIP; I was about to package mine up and send it back.

LMFAO!

I guess every album has its fans, but no way would I trade BB85 or LA for this.

If you've got it on vinyl, please send it to me.

I place it in the BBs bottom 5 but there is some good stuff on it - cheap tacky production aside. Anyone who claims it is the worst album ever made needs to go listen to a Nicki Minaj record for some much needed perspective.

Just listened to the UK version of this album and, whew, what is that all about? Firstly, most of the tracks are clearly alternate takes. The compression, if that's what it is, is so high there is virtually no air, the tracks so aggressive they seem to reach out, grab me by the throat, rattle my head and scream "LISTENTOTHIS!!!"

Island Fever, Boardwalk and the title track are radically reworked, Fever containing another verse - "Doctor Doctor," and SIP containing the "reap what you sew" lyric that can be heard on the live version on MIC.

Was all this intended to work with some specific drug? What was happening in that department in '92?

Anyway, I still like the original well enough. Wonder what these tracks would sound like with a live drummer?

But wonderful ORIGINAL album cover art!

everyone keeps saying this. personally i think its really tacky

Very Franklin Mint.

Ah,you had me going for a minute.

Nice one. :lol

Technically good, but tacky, as opposed to KTSA, which is technically tacky and embarrassing.

I don't think I would call the artwork of the cover Art. Is more in the vein of those glow-in-the-dark velvet paintings of the Brooklyn Bridge.

OK - here come the snarks. But I don't care. It's only a rocknroll record. And I like it. But then, I liked the Troggs too.

(http://cf.chucklesnetwork.com/items/1/4/8/6/9/original/not-sure-if-trolling-or-being-serious.jpg)

No, I'm no troll. I've been a fan since 1964. Bought every album hot off the rack since Shut Down II

And have been reading these boards since 96.

And I can see there is this body of opinion that considers itself canonical

Cannot abide a view that departs from the dogma.

I don't care.

I'm the guy who bought the one copy of Sunflower in 1970 and had to endure the dismissal of serious rock fans

Where are those blues-boogie bands now? I can't even remember their names.

Anyway, SIP rocks in a way non others do between it and Holland.

Love You? Give me a break - retarded bullshit. MIU/LA/KTSA? - 3 flaccid, lifeless bores. 85? Totally plastic.

I get the feeling legs may be being pulled but sin points are deducted for liking The Troggs.

My father was a serious jazzman. We had the best sound system in town. When I brought home Wild Thing he pulled it off the turntable and threw it out the window.

Did you ever forgive him? I once broke my dad's Gina G cd under strict instructions from my stepmum because he wouldn't stop playing it at parties when he was drunk.

Nah, it was, you know, generation gap to the max at our house in 1966. But I go back to the jazz classics for refreshment from time to time. I traced it from beginnings up thru Coltrane. But after that it seemed to crawl up its own ass, pretty much the way rock did in the mid to late seventies.

As far as rock goes, it's the Beatles, Beach Boys and Rolling Stones who are the Holy Trinity.

I was definitely Made in the 60's

Love You "retarded bullshit" while SIP's a "damn good collection of tunes"? I think it's time for me to meditate.

Yeah. The one sounds like an album by a working band, anchored around a handful of classics updated, the other like Elmer Fudd's greatest hits.

What, are you deaf?

Each person's garbage is another person's treasure. 

I'm a big fan of The Who's Endless Wire album that got a somewhat lukewarm response from many fans. 

I'm no fan of SIP, but you're entitled to your opinion. 

The eccentricity of Love You may be off-putting to some but I find it melodically endearing. Those 70s synths provide a sublime vibe. Can you imagine Solar System without 'em?

Thanks, TMPM, for giving such a thorough review of Summer in Paradise, an album that totally puts the listener in a summertime mood. That's essentially what Mike Love made here (as he states in the liner notes): a concept album centered on songs w/ a summer motif. It's as much about environmental awareness/appreciation as Pet Sounds is about loss of innocence in young lovers.

This is the kinda thread we need more of, not those negative & repetitive Myke Luhv hate threads. The Luvster has given us so much catchy music, like this lost classic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oC7DyhoDx6s. If only Mike himself would embrace this great but obscure output of his.

In closing, Summer in Paradise shouldn't be forgotten ;D

 

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/150x100q90/538/hWogu0.jpg) (http://imageshack.com/f/eyhWogu0j)

Both albums were DOA and need to be privately interred preferably in a pauper's cemetery. No marker, of course.

You know, there's a lot of good and a lot of bad in the Beach Boys catalogue, and I think Summer In Paradise is somewhere in the middle. It was great to hear new Beach Boys material at the time, and there are some really good songs on there. I've listened to it a lot more than I have to some of the mid/late 70's albums.

:) Mark

I wish they would have released a studio version of Summer in Paradise in the same vein as they performed it live at Wembly in 1993 (not 1995 as the MIC box purported).

:lol

Yes, the Holy Trinity!  ;)

And I love Carl on Lahaina Aloha!   :thewilsons

Setting the record straight on Summer In Paradise, I see? Some concepts/notions/ideas Don Draper couldn't even sell in his best pitch.  ;D

Just listen to the album, it would seem there was a hard-working band involved but only if you count the synths, drum machines, sequencers, quantizers, Eventide Harmonizers, early versions of ProTools, etc.  ::)

Enjoy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZbthkfJNFE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZbthkfJNFE)

Keep in mind, it's all a f**king "love thing..."

Don't worry 'bout it, toss your clothes, and get in the water.

in a way albums you love and hate are tied much closer to the ones you have complete apathy for..which BB album is the one you listen to/think of the least??

Party! I honestly keep forgetting this album exists.
Stars & Stripes I wish I could forget this album exists.
That's Why God Made The Radio Basically another horrible solo Brian album with a few Mike, Al and Bruce vocals added in.

Has any interviewer ever asked Mike point-blank about the Summer In Paradise album, specifically any reasons he might have for why it was such a colossal commercial flop? I just ask because he seemed to have no problems finding reasons why he thought other albums or songs didn't catch on, yet this one doesn't seem to face the same scrutiny.

I'm not a fan.

It sounds like all of the Band's solo music to me.

For all the wrong reasons this is the greatest fucking song and video of all time.

Smiley Smile - Some decent stuff, but to me, the Smile Sessions box pretty much renders this album obsolete. 

15 Big Ones - An appropriate title for this album would've been "It's OK." 

Love You - An improvement over 15 Big Ones, and there are some hints of something good.  But it's just not there. 

KTSA - With 15BO, The Beach Boys started to become a parody of the great group they once were.  After some promising moments on MIU & LA, the transformation is complete.

SIP - Ummmm....It's not all horrible.  But, it's up there with my least favorite albums done by bands I like, joining the ranks of Queen's Hot Space, Metallica's St. Anger, Van Halen 3, etc. 

The video apparently didn't even warrant an appearance from Hasselhoff. You know something is off when The Hoff won't even get his mug on the screen. They had to edit in the opening credit shots of him.

I mean, really...how could it fail when you had shots of Stamos playing electronic drums on the beach? That's TV gold, right there.

Of course this album is going to come across as awful when you compare it to Pet Sounds.  But comparing it with The Beach Boys and Still Cruisin'?  Still awful.

Milli Vanilli had a better sounding record at this time.

(https://adhoc_bucket.s3.amazonaws.com/cache/images/rsz_milli-vanilli-620x313_medium_image.jpg)

 :lol

Wins the thread.

People always talk about different versions of this song but.....You can't polish a turd...just my opinion of course.

It's kind of like that Spinal Tap diner scene where Jeanine says the Smell The Glove album would have sold better had it been mixed in "Doubly"

 :lol

CATP.

As a psychedelic rock fan, I'd have to say Brian, Hendrix and Syd. With Grace Slick, Janis Joplin and Dorothy Moskowitz as the female trinity

The albums that annoy me in a way no other BB albums do are KTSA and MIU. I mean, things were disintegrating but guys were all around (kind of)! And LA, because there were tracks around that would've improved it, though with our luck we'd have been presented with more stuff in the manner of Shortenin' Bread or Sumahama. My bottom five would be (in no particular order): Looking Back with Love, SIP, Still Cruisin, Stars and Stripes and...  GIOMH or Youngblood (or Going Public).

C'mon, Youngblood isn't THAT bad...

I have a soft spot for SIP. Some of it isn't great but I've never quite understood the hatred it seems to generate.

How do I know which version I have? I'm in the UK but THINK I may have the US version. What are the differences and how do I tell?

There he is! Get 'im!! (mob, torches)

If the “SIP” CD has an EMI logo, it’s the UK version. (I also believe the UK version may have come in a standard jewel case). Whereas, the US version doesn’t have an EMI logo and came in that weird fold-out, “eco” digipak packaging. That’s the easiest way to tell without looking at track times and listening.

Ah, so mine is a US version then. How odd, I don't remember buying it as an import. So how different is the UK version then?

Would you have such a soft spot for Summer in Paradise if you knew it was directly responsible due to anomalies in time and space for Sly Stone's debilitating crack addiction? "Hot Fun in the Summertime" was so bad that George Clinton officially declared The Funk dead for a full fortnight before it was reconstituted using DNA found on James Brown's socks.

Iain, there's your reissue project. Convince Mike to put out a two-LP Summer in Paradise ultimate Masterpiece edition. You know you want to liner note that sh*t up, wax rhapsodic about it and use that as your pitch.

Here's a quote to open it from the Maharishi:

"I let people make remarks about me, but it doesn't touch me, all those remarks."

A few tender extracts from the epic"Why Do You Hate Mike Love" thread and how could people resist?

The title track is a complete re-recording and an improvement on the original.  The arrangement is different, it's slightly faster paced with a more substantial chorus.  I think it has more of a Beach Boys feel to it.  It features Roger McGuinn playing one of his signature 12-string guitar parts and singing one of the verses. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUlPQokMjKk

It's very similar to the live version on Made in California which has Bruce Johnston singing the McGuinn verse.

I always thought I had the UK edition but it turns out I have the Yank version. After a quick listen on youtube, I personally find the UK mixes to be inferior.

Has Mike Love ever given his thoughts about SIP in an interview?

I was disappointed that a live version of Summer In Paradise, the song, is on Made In California, but Lahaina Aloha is not.

Not as far as I know. Not in over a decade at least. I think hes just as ashamed of it and willing to bury it as the others and the fans are.

Not trying to be a smartass, but finding the UK/US album differences isn’t a huge research chore:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summer_in_Paradise

I always found SIP superior to the awful Still Cruisin' (I only like Kokomo and Still Cruisin' on that album!), more fun, even if it's mostly for bad reasons.
And you have to admit that the Summer of Love / Baywatch video has a certain hypnotic quality, with Mike at his most nasal and creepy, Brian angry as an extra in the background and Bruce grinning like an idiot. You can't just watch it once, you have to watch it over and over again, show it to your friends. It's so addictive! So bad it's good!

Can anyone tell me who plays on this album? I know it came with a foldout blow-up of the cover art, and I think on the back of that the credits.

I'm wondering if it was the touring band?

Carl Wilson, Al Jardine (vocals, guitar); Bruce Johnston (vocals, keyboards); Mike Love (vocals).Additional personnel: John Stamos (vocals); Craig Fall (acoustic & electric guitars, mandolin, bass); Danny Kortchmar (acoustic & electric guitars); John Weston (pedal steel guitar); Van Dyke Parks (accordion, keyboards); Joel Peskin (saxophone); Keith Wechsler (keyboards, drums, programming) Terry Melcher (keyboards, background vocals); Rod Clark (bass); Sammy Merendino (drums); Sal Marullo (congas); Richard D. Titus (programming); Adrian Baker (background vocals)

Who were there guys?

Who were THESE guys?

Sorry. It's 6am in Nanjing and I'm on my first cup of coffee.

I find this album compelling now again.  Thank you for the discussion!

It's always been cheesy - but a flower in a desert.  A lame little flower, and that's cool with me.

  THE BEACH BOYS LOVE YOU plays like the music of the spheres next to the radioactive waste that is SUMMER IN PARADISE. The latter album remains the worst LP ever released by a major (or perhaps minor) rock band.

Not possitive but I think this is the most hilarious thing I've ever read here.  Elmer Fudd's greatest hits INDEED!!!  That's IT.  The perfect 'review'.  [or at least the most honest one.]  Not terribly huge on SIP but I'll take it over Love You 365 1/4 days a year.

Surfer Joe - Surfaris
Remember Walkin' In the Sand - The Leader of the Pack gals.

Never thought I'd be here defending the good parts of SIP, but Lahaina Aloha, Strange Things Happen, and Slow Summer Dancing all have their moments, and despite crappy production, aren't totally without their charms. I can also dig Hot Fun in the Summertime and when I'm feeling generous, I can take Still Surfin', Island Fever (total guilty pleasure) and the title track in small doses. Everything else is super, off-the-cliff abysmal in my opinion. It ain't great, but if you can acclimate to its production suck-titude and just focus on the better tracks, there are far bigger turds than this among the catalog of a great many famous bands, I'm sure.

It would have to be an album which has no redeeming value whatsoever on any song (Chinese Democracy comes to mind).

However, if you take JUST the other tracks from SIP (the ones I haven't mentioned), and if you released that as a BB's EP, I'd agree with you totally. That would be unlistenable.

Now as far as turds of this level coming from the same band that achieved as many unbelievably gorgeous musical moments of bliss as this band? That may be closer to a statement I can get behind. No other band, bar none, has as many moments of pure lard compared to many, many, many moments of perfection as this band. A strange, strange band this is.

Guess I knew going into this that the knives would be drawn. Too bad, as I'm just musing, out loud and before the whole world, over the memory of a nice time and how the music conjures images.

Could just as easily meditate on slow dancing to Side Two of Today in 1965 and whispering I Love You into her ear as Please Let Me Wonder comes to a close.

There's nothing these guys did after Good Vibrations that can equal the classic outpouring that came before. Altho I'd vote Smiley thru In Concert the second best period on vinyl, the best live. Now that I think of it, I'm on the cover of In Concert, in the audience of course.

But 15BO-Love You? No way. I was just emerging from a long period away from rock in 76. I associate Johnny Hartman singing with John Coltrane in memory as the sound of that time for me. Whoa, Lush Life. Yeah, you wanna get laid? Drop the needle on to The Gentle Side of John Coltrane and watch how fast she drops her drawers. (Still works, by the way.) Anyway, news that a new Beach Boys album was out sent me to the bins, but what did I waste my $2.74 on? You guessed it. And the following was no better. Am I seriously supposed to romance a grown woman to the strains of "wub id de wumin...?" I don't think so.

It may not be the best rock album ever made, or even a particularly good one (altho, and oddly enough, I kind of associate it with Sticky Fingers but can't say why) but at least Summer in Paradise doesn't drag me into the depressing world of Brian Wilson's endless bummer.

Oops!  Reading the title of this thread, I thought we were discussing something else!






Never mind!  ;D

IF SIP was intact, recalled, as we all thought it was being,

WOULD YOU GIVE YOUR COPY BACK?

I mean sure, the record is shitty compared to Pet Sounds (duh), but for us completists, would we hand our copies back?

Sure, if it means that they will fix it (in other words remaster it, or remix, or whatever, which seems to be the main issue with that album).  When your car gets recalled, they make it right, yes?

Love You is anything but a bummer

SIP rehashes old songs and old Beachboys lyrics.    and it is poorly mixed and produced.    they released this themselves....why  didn't they take more time to get it right?   they weren't under a contract deadline were they?   another in a long line of poorly thought out releases that followed Love You.    It's like they were guilty of poor judgment and taste, rather than lacking inate talent.   a hardcore fan ( like you or me)  could just sense the unrealized potential of these releases.     lack of vision, creativity, taste, and imagination from a band that often exhibited all of this when at their best.   I listen to SIP and think I myself could do better if given a chance to remaster/remix Those songs.

I've...ahem...gosh...OK...I'm gonna say it...I've never liked Love You.

Runs and hides...

There are always some gems on even the worst BB albums - yes, on SIP too. Strange Things Happen, certainly; also quite like Still Surfin' and some of the singing, especially Jardine, is very good. On GIOMH there are some great songs, it's just that the arrangements and recordings render them somewhat difficult to enjoy - never mind the ghastly context of the shite they're next to. Even the Lovester's album has its moments - though the most annoying thing about that is that we all know he had a far better album under wraps... (and a far worse one too, mind you (though Beth on the Mesa's not that baaaaaaaaad....) and some of his faux country singing is no worse than Jagger's faux hick accent.

Shouldn't we be Joe-Thomasing Terry Melcher over what we don't like about SIP? (thousand yard stare)

Look, ahh, I'm all for people having their own personal opinions, blah blah, and I'm happily ignoring the deluded opinions dissing Love You, but SIP ~ BB's LIB? A bit OTT, surely - or a great laugh (a gas, even) - or a ripper zinger directed at "Let It Be".

Well, I hear Let It Be as bringing the Beatles to a close, Yes, I know it was recorded before Abby Road, and yes I know the Beach Boys can't touch the Beatles as a class act, but the song does, in its way, pass the torch.

Cannot understand the bitter denunciations of this album.

While I'm not a fan of the SIP record by any means, one of the big reasons for the hate that this album gets is because Brian Wilson is not on it and had nothing to do with it.  Same reason many hate Kokomo.  Same reason many will not go see the touring version of The Beach Boys. 

SIP is bad, poorly recorded music by people who, at one time, made excellnt, well-recorded music. The fact that Terry Melcher doesn't get Joe Thomas-ed is proof that this is Kokomaoist Central.

I think the issue with SIP is more with the quality of songs rather than the production. 

I don't think there's a producer alive or dead that could make Summer of Love into something good. 

SIP is not their best album, but neither is Still Cruisin' or BB85. I like quite a few of the songs on SIP. Once I get past the production, it can be quite enjoyable. The vocals of both Al & Carl on SIP are it's saving grace.

Strange Things Happen is the clear standout on the record. I like the American version better than the shortened British version - the long instrumental sequence at the end of the song just brings the whole song full circle. Lahaina Aloha is a very close second.

It's also worth noting, I feel, that pretty much everything recorded in the mid-to-late 80s through the early 90s is riddled with a hi-cheese ratio.  It wasn't until the funk/grunge of the early 90s that rock/pop music returned to its earthy roots.

At this time, anything pop or "popular" was smothered with a thick creamy layer of Velveeta.  Had SIP been recorded earlier or a few years later, it would have fared better.

(http://cdn2.cagepotato.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/wwf_promo_photos-650x374.png)

1000% agree with everything you just typed.

Thanks MB,

And just for the record, I'm not a Kokomaoist, and I'm not a Brianista. 

I consider myself a fan of The Beach Boys - namely Brian, Mike, Dennis, Carl, Al, David, Bruce, Blondie, and Ricky (among others). 

I enjoyed NPP and Love & Mercy.  And I also highly enjoyed the Mike and Bruce Beach Boys concert I attended last weekend, almost as much as I enjoyed the Brian Wilson concert I attended in June. 

Thanks for allowing us to have opinions! Much appreciated.

Very true, Brian's lack of involvement makes it a categorically different product.  I love the Allmusic.com review, which basically says exactly that as its entire review:  "if you ever wondered what a beach boy record would sound like without Brian Wilson..."

 :lol

So you're all saying that a fan not liking the SIP album wouldn't have more to do with the fact that they might think the production is weak, the songs and songwriting is weak, and the whole project overall seemed to miss the mark by a few million miles?

Ahh, but it's all because Brian Wilson isn't on the album, though...right? That's a pretty bold statement to make, not to mention "explaining" why fans don't like it and ignoring the fact they might really, really think it sounds like doggie doo whether Brian Wilson or the King of Siam were involved.

Or in other words, it gets bad when fans have to read the reasons why they don't like something as explained by other people they've never met, instead of knowing what their own reasons were and are.

Is this another "set the record straight" type of deal?

GF,

I won't dispute that many don't like it because of the quality of songs and production.  That's one of the reasons I don't like it. 

But I'm saying that, there's a certain vocal minority of BB/BW fans out there that will decide to hate any BB product which doesn't include Brian D. Wilson.  (ie. Kokomo, BB concerts 1998-present excl C50). 

The poster asked why the album get so much hate.  I provided a reason.  It's not THE reason that the album is mostly hated.  But, its A reason. 

Nah, there are no doubt people who genuinely don't like the damn thing (and about five hundred million Red Chinese who don't give a sh*t either way!). But when you see the rather over excitable section of Brian's fanbase proclaiming it 'the worst album ever made', claiming there's not one redeemable aspect about the entire thing and how it's a testament to how talentless Mike Love is, then it's clear that something else is at work.

Conversely -- weak songs, weak songwriting and weak production are all common traits of a non-Brian Wilson project.

And my opinion is that the argument would be valid if those fans said that's their reason, but to make a general statement that the reason why the SIP album flopped and is considered the worst recorded product to ever carry the Beach Boys name smacks of trying to soften the impact a failure like this might have on the "legacy" of either the band or individual members.

Try the blind test, like the Pepsi Challenge. Show someone who wouldn't know or wouldn't care who is or isn't involved from the band the Baywatch video posted above, maybe play a few cuts from the album (US or UK mix, whatever) for them, and gauge their reactions. I think the results may be pretty obvious to predict, and it won't have much to do with Brian Wilson's involvement.

Something else is at work, for sure. Using that logic above, how would those who claimed Brian's latest album was "unlistenable" fall into your template? Ahh, but they're just expressing their opinions as fans, we need to respect and allow for that, if they hear copious amounts of autotune then god-dammit it's on there...but fans who genuinely don't like SIP are in it just to bash Mike and prove points? Nope, doesn't work that way.

No, obviously people who don't like Brian's new album 'hate' Brian Wilson. I thought we'd clearly established that.

You're saying the same thing about fans who don't like SIP! They're just out to bash Mike, so what version of your logic are you going to apply? It either applies across the spectrum or it's flawed from the get-go. If fans posting opinions here about SIP are out to humiliate Mike as part of a campaign, then fans posting similar opinions about Brian's album are out to humiliate Brian as part of a campaign. That's what you're saying.

I agree.

But I think Mike's Beard made my point better than I did, saying that some Brian fans will rate SIP as worst album ever made and a testament to the failure of Mike Love.

After all, the Beach Boys put out a few duds when Brian was involved with the group. 

And so what? Find me a band or an artist that has a 100% pure track record of having slam-bang, corking good songs with no clunkers to speak of in a 5-decade long career. That's life, not everything is "great", right?

So what do *you* think about fans who declared openly on this and other boards that the latest Brian Wilson album was "unlistenable", "horrible", whatever the adjectives? Would you be willing to step up and apply the same logic to explain some of that hyperbole and say maybe those fans were trying to make NPP a testament to what they'd want to portray as failure of Brian Wilson? It's the same formula, if it plugs in and works for SIP and Mike then surely it applies to NPP and Brian as well.

Does it?

Never said people can't not like SIP, I'm not exactly a gushing fan of it myself. But there are times when it's criticism reads a tad suspect. In all your years as a fan, with all the dreck that is posted on sites such as youtube, you honestly don't think that there are times when a certain 'type' of Brian fan ramps up their dislike of SIP to the extreme in a misguided defense of their idol?

There's not any reason though for people not to like Brian's new stuff, unless of course it is actually sh*t. Do you honestly think anyone would not be delighted for Brian to regain his 1963-73 genius peak?

OK, we'll plug that logic into the formula. You don't think there are fans who would have liked to see a new Beach Boys album at the time SIP was released regain the magic of the Beach Boys' earlier albums, the 63-73 "classics"? Instead they got SIP. But according to your previous statements, the rejection of that album and criticisms had more to do with wanting to bash Mike Love, never mind the fact that you had SIP stocked in the same record shops next to one of the finest catalogs of albums from the 60's, all with the name "The Beach Boys" on their covers. But it's still all about bashing Mike?

Maybe fans would have wanted (or expected) a Beach Boys album to be of a certain quality and having a certain sound that SIP sorely lacked, whether Mike or Brian or whoever else was listed in the credits.

In here, if you would ask or even read all the stuff over the years you will find most people in this forum that don't like SIP, don"t like it because Brian isn't on it, first and foremost. Also, not all of the songwriting is bad, at least in my opinion, it isn't. I will agree with your production assessment, but there are a few people here who don't even mind that. We're all entitled to like what we want. And your statement that it is "doggie doo" is just as bold to my senses as having no Brian Wilson on it is to you. Singing-wise it doesn't bother me a bit that Brian isn't on it, but songwriting-wise, it could have been so much better with him than what we got without him.

I don't think anybody in their right mind was expecting another Pet Sounds quality record from the guys by 1992.

Then there is a justification for those who would suggest they know the reasons why someone really dislikes an album like SIP and that can be pinpointed to "Brian isn't on it" and taken further to imply they're out to bash Mike? Then where does that leave those who described Brian's new album as "unlistenable"? Using this logic, they're obviously saying that about NPP as much to bash Brian as it is expressing an opinion, and behind the comments like those "unlistenable" type opinions is the implication that they probably don't like it because Mike and Bruce aren't on the album. It's the same formula, we're just plugging in different names. If it's valid, then it should work for every variable.

Right? Some of those fans who didn't like NPP were doing so because first and foremost, Mike and Bruce were not on it and the same songs were not on a "Beach Boys" album, and among them they're out to "bash" Brian because of it. That's the logic, it would seem. is that valid?

I don't have the time to search this forum for specific posts, but I've seen it written here, and other forums, that fans openly expressed their dislike for Kokomo, SIP, and the current version of The Beach Boys because of the absence of Brian Wilson.  Not because Summer of Love is an awful attempt at rap.  Not because Kokomo is a cheesy Buffett-esque song.  Not because they don't care for Scott Totten's guitar playing.  But because Brian Wilson wasn't there.  I've seen it written, multiple times.  And when these fans criticize the record, they don't usually criticize Carl, or Bruce, or Al.  It's always Mike (and sometimes John Stamos). 

If any Brian Wilson fan thinks No Pier Pressure is unlistenable, I think that's their opinion.  But I haven't seen anyone post that they don't like NPP because they don't like Brian Wilson.  Not once.  They don't like the slickness, or the guest stars, or the adult contemporary feel, etc etc.  

I'm just summarizing what I've seen on this and other forums.  That's all.  

I doubt they were either. But having experienced it firsthand as a Beach Boys fan like everyone else when SIP hit the stores, I and I'm sure many others were expecting something that sounded at least close to what the Beach Boys sounded like and why we all got to be such devoted fans. Quite frankly, speaking for me and me only, hearing SIP sounded like a simultaneous kick in the ass, punch in the gut, and a Moe Howard style eye poke because it was really, really jarring to hear those sounds labeled as "The Beach Boys". And SIP just brought all of the bad stuff together in one place which no previous album had done, no matter how questionable. It wasn't the Beach Boys.

Again, just play it for "outsiders" who have no deep investment into the fandom of the band, and see what they think.

If you can find quotes of fans referring to Brian as a talentless, sleazy piece of sh*t who rode on the coattails of others, then absolutely. Until then...............  

Now it's onto the straw-man portion of the show. Totally irrelevant. Or maybe to play along, let's consider some of those who have said Brian sat back and loafed for a few decades and just collected the money while Mike did all the "heavy lifting" on the road...would those comments also imply that a negative review of NPP was more about "bashing" Brian than it would be an actual opinion about the music on the album?

See, it works many ways. If something is attempted to be used as a formula, then it either works or doesn't work no matter what variables are run through it.

Another thread bites the dust

SIP came too late in the Baywatch phenomenon, just as HCTN came with a disco version. It would be hard to convince me that The Bee Gees were more talented songwriters than the Boys.  Had they jumped into disco early, it might have been a niche resurrgence in a new area, but they had their own thing going with the Spirit of America phenomenon in the bicentennial of the U.S. circa 1975.

SIP also has a now-dated "electro-tech" feel that was perhaps construed as cutting edge, at that time. It isn't bad music but like everything else is a function of timing in the marketplace. I bought it and quite enjoyed it for the vocals. And it is the last of Carl's vocals. That, alone makes it a little treasure for me.  ;)

My biggest issue with Brian's new album is also with Production. I love most of the songs and love most of the singing. I like  Runaway Dancer as a song, but I do not care much for the arrangement. I do think it would have made a great Beach Boys album, but that is just from hearing what Al, Blondie and David added to it. You can't help making that connection. Again, what I dislike it about has nothing to do with Mike & Bruce, but more from what Brian did production-wise. It sounds too Joe Thomas-y, and that is also my only dislikes with TWGMTR and C50 Live. As to your first sentence, there is nothing to be inferred if you read what is posted in here, the very vocal anti-Mike faction make it abundantly clear that with no Brian, the album must then be sh*t. To my ears that just isn't so.

I like salad.  But I don't like the salad without salad dressing.  Therefore I don't like salad?  Is that what's going on here?   :lol

And I'm trying to figure out the logic in all of this. Saying NPP is unlistenable is a fan's opinion, but saying the same about SIP comes from an inherent desire to either bash or humiliate Mike Love? Are there different standards to apply when validating or dismissing fan opinions that change based on which band member's name is on the work? It looks like there is, and I don't buy it for a second.

Summing it up, based on this logic: Fans bashing SIP are doing it because they don't like Mike, and it's more about bashing Mike instead of the SIP album's slickness (synths, sequencing, early digital recording residue, vocal futzing), the guest stars (Stamos), the adult contemporary feel ( or confused mix of 'feels' overall from rap to bubblegum to A.C.). It wasn't about the music mostly, instead it was people out to get Mike.

But fans bashing NPP do it for more "pure" or justifiable reasons? There was nothing else at play there except a genuine desire across the board to express negative opinions based only on the music?

That seems to be the implication, and again I don't buy it. The formula and the template are flawed.

I think you're reading too much into this GF.  You're a mod.  You had to have seen posts like this, I know I have:

1.  SIP is a steaming pile.  Brian's not on it, and Mike proves himself to be a sleaze.

2.  Kokomo is terrible.  The Spanish version with Brian is much better.  

3.  There's no way I'm paying to see The Beach Boys.  No Brian.  No Wilsons.  No Beach Boys.  

This forum has been littered with these posts (especially #3).  

Quite frankly, I'm not sure why my observation that some fans chose to dismiss SIP purely for the fact that BW isn't on it has gotten you so fired up.

And, I think you are, bar none, the funniest poster on this forum!

It's Friday, Bean Bag!

One for you!   :beer

I think it is wrong to hold Brian accountable to Joe Thomas production and Mike accountable for Terry Melcher production.

Of course it's relevant. If people were constantly saying nasty things about Brian as both a person and his place in the history of music then one could argue that it colours how some people may review a release by him. As nobody does, your argument has zero logic.

(http://media.giphy.com/media/K34FVrUx8ggyA/giphy.gif)

That Baywatch episode was like 3 years after the album came out wasn't it?

What an amateur! We know you wouldn't spill a drop!  :lol

Simply because I consider the logic behind it to be flawed. It either applies and works in all directions or it doesn't work at all. All I've seen is attempts here to excuse overtly negative opinions of an album like NPP by calling them honest fan opinions, while trying to dismiss or make illegitimate negative opinions about SIP by suggesting it's all part of the continuous "Mike bashing".

So fans doing one or the other have their motivations either challenged or defended based on what they're criticizing? So if the negative opinions en masse on SIP are written off as more of the same Mike bashing, logic would then apply to say let's dismiss the negative opinions on NPP en masse as more of the same Brian bashing.

That's plugging in 2+2 and having it equal 4, aka simple logic. If it applies for one, then it would and should apply for another as well. Does it?

1989-2001 was the show run.

August, 1992, it came out.

Good point.  Haste makes waste.  Let's try this one...

(http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view2/3940185/homer-drinks-beer-o.gif)

Well, then, don't complain to me about the lack of logic involved.  It's not my logic.  I'm just pointing out what I've seen.  Much like politics, there's not much logistic among extreme Brianistas and extreme Kokomaoists.  I pointed out I'm on neither side of the fence.  

Whenever a poster says that they don't like something because Brian Wilson isn't involved, complain to them, not me.  

My observation has absolutely nothing to do with the criticism of NPP I've seen on this board because those reviewers have given clear concise reasons why they don't like the record, and it's not because Mike or Bruce or John Stamos or whoever are on the record.  

A poster who likes SIP simply said that he didn't understand the hate behind the record.  I simply pointed out that some fans (not all, but some) chose to hate any product with The Beach Boys in which Brian is not involved.  Which is 100% true.

That doesn't mean I agree with it.  I don't like SIP as an album because I think the majority of the songs are terrible.  The same reason why I don't like Keeping the Summer Alive.  Like you said, not everything a band is going to put out are winners.  

I thought I saw the episode aired like October 1995 or so.

Not them on it. But the phenomenon of the show, itself.

Efficient, but so misunderstood... :lol

SIP didn't come in too late in the Baywatch phenomenon, it was practically at the peak. Baywatch started as a network show in '89, then the studio making it went bankrupt, so Hasselhoff shopped it to syndication. By '91 it was picked up and began airing new episodes on what used to be called the "UHF" networks that ran syndication.

The show was a massive success at that time, in terms of pop culture. It was everywhere. It was so successful they started spinning off other projects from it. Among them, a series called Baywatch Nights which the rumors said at the time (circa 94-95) was going to feature a new song written by Brian and Mike. That never materialized.

Among them too was a series of soundtrack releases. In late 1994, a follow-up soundtrack was released on the Scotti Brothers label featuring "Summer Of Love" as one of the tracks. By that time, it was a two-year-old release taken from the SIP album.

In summer of 1995, they started filming scenes for the show featuring the Beach Boys. They did shoots featuring Brian on the beach supposed to be set to the "Summer Of Love" video. That's what we see in the clip posted earlier. There was also a concert planned which would be filmed and worked into the finale of the episode. The whole episode was written around the Beach Boys coming up with a song for the Surf Rider charity for ecological causes, and that song was "Summer In Paradise". It was by then 2 years old, but they wrote scenes of Mike and Al "writing" the song and auditioning it for Hasselhoff's character in the show before the concert.

By the time it came to film the concert, Brian didn't come to the shoot, although he had made it to the earlier "Summer In Love" shoot, the one featuring Stamos playing electronic drums on the beach. They had David Marks on stage instead. According to one news report from summer '95, people there for that concert/shoot were disappointed. No Brian. So the parts of that "concert" that got written into the show was the band with David Marks playing Fun Fun Fun and Summer In Paradise. The video for the "Summer Of Love" song aired elsewhere in the episode, not part of the storyline as they tried to make Summer In Paradise key to the plot.

So I'd suggest the notion that the Baywatch franchise had already passed its prime by the time the Beach Boys got involved isn't accurate. If anything, the years 1994-95 were when the show was riding pretty high in its popularity, and evidence of that is within this same span of time 94-95 there was a soundtrack release (featuring Summer Of Love) and a spinoff series given the green light (Baywatch Nights) among other related projects that were done to capitalize on the success of the franchise. Perhaps a few years later was when the show started to wane a bit.

You don't see that kind of interest and number of spin-off projects crossing over into soundtrack albums when a show has already jumped the shark and was on the way out. No studios or companies would sink money into a TV franchise that's limping to the finish line.

And the show lasted another 6 years after the Beach Boys appeared. Strangely, none of this tie-in promotional stuff seemed to help sales of either Summer In Paradise, Summer Of Love, or any of the other Baywatch-related releases.

And what I'd suggest is plugging this into the formula:

Posters who like NPP simply said that they didn't understand the hate behind the record.   It was pointed out that some fans (not all, but some) chose to hate any product with Brian in which either the Beach Boys as a group name or Mike Love and/or Bruce Johnston as individual band members are not involved.  Which is 100% true.

Is it still true with the changed variables?

I remember many things being said about NPP when it dropped but can't recall anyone saying they hated it because Mike and Bruce were not on it. I thought TWGMTR also stunk for the most part and that featured both of them.

I have no problem with someone hating a Brian record simply because there's none of "the boys" on it.  And I have no problem with someone hating Summer In Paradise because there's no Brian.

Is that what you're objecting to?  I also believe it's ok to believe one and not the other. 

GF - Baywatch (babe watch) came quickly after Hasselhoff's Knight Rider...big hit with the kids, complete with all the Christmas toys, etc. It was Hasselhoff and he went from one hit series from 1982-86 or so to Baywatch. He took his audience with him, as well as William Daniels, from St. Elsewhere, as the voice of KITT.

But I think it was (SIP) a little late on the draw, and not just for the BB TV appearance but for the association with the beach patrol job, that just screams BB music. JMHO
It was the dream job, on TV.

Cremation will take place.
Friends will be received at the funeral home on Friday, August 28, 2015 from 2-4 p.m. and 7-9 p.m. The Funeral Service will be held on Saturday, August 29, 2015 from the Chapel of the Funeral Home at 11 a.m.

If your NPP scenario were true, then I would no have issue with it being pointed out.  And just as it is with SIP, I would think its a silly reason to not like something. 

Ritchie Blackmore is my favorite guitar player of all time, and I still bought, and have enjoyed the Deep Purple albums with Tommy Bolin and Steve Morse.  Yet, there are many who will completely dismiss any Purple record that doesn't have Ritchie, regardless of content. 

Just as I wouldn't understand anyone who said that they don't enjoy Ritchie Blackmore's Rainbow because Ian Gillan or Jon Lord aren't in it. 

One poster questioned the hatred behind the SIP album.  Since the poster actually likes the SIP album, I gave him a reason I felt he would understand.   Because that is a reason posted by several Brianistas.  On this board.  That you moderate.   Yet, you come back with this inane argument over the people who criticize NPP, which has no merit because nobody has said the album stinks because Mike Love isn't on it.  If somebody actually said that on this board, or any other BB related board, they'd probably be banned. 

On that note, have a pleasant weekend everybody. 

 

I started this thread while listening to Summer in Paradise for the first time in years and musing over the memories it conjured of a time when my kids were young and we were poor and a vacation to Cocoa Beach was a treasure and the Beach Boys were our happy sound track.

And now you creeps have crawled out of the woodwork and sh*t all over that.

Well, f*** you all. It's pointless to continue coming here.

I'll be content with my happy memories and thank the Beach Boys for being a part of that.

All right, then.

I didn't originally post the inane argument that people criticizing Summer In Paradise are doing it just to bash Mike Love. Funny how the argument only becomes inane when the names "Brian Wilson" and NPP are plugged in to the exact same argument that must have been valid or less inane when the names were "Mike Love" and "SIP" using the same basic wording and logic.

Oh no, but it's different.

Sure.

I guess creeps crawling out of the woodwork to sh*t all over things people enjoyed when it happened before this wasn't as much of an issue since I don't remember seeing such strong objections in previous threads where it happened. Maybe it has to do with what they're shitting on and who is doing the shitting that makes some of it acceptable?

I know very well about Knight Rider, I watched the show back in the day. It was over and done, DOA by the time Baywatch came on. Baywatch wasn't seen by many people that first season it was on the network prime-time schedule. That was 1989. It was when it went into syndication with new first-run episodes in 1991 into 1992 that the show started to gain an audience, and soon it turned into a pop culture phenom. By the 1994 season it was firmly in the pop culture, successful in other words.

So 1994, in real-world terms it was about three years into it's main run. Hit show, spinoffs planned, scripted and ready to shoot, one soundtrack already out, a second one featuring "Summer Of Love" already out in '94...and the Beach Boys film their episode in summer 1995.

So a show that was still hot, a show that had spinoffs and cover stories and media attention and soundtrack albums all getting the public attention in the US...in 1995 it was late on the draw?

It hung on for 6 more years. If the Beach Boys had come on in 1999 or something, I could see it. If the Beach Boys had come on when the Baywatch Nights spinoff changed formats and tried to copy the success of the X-Files by going supernatural in the plots, I'd see your point. But they were on the show when it was still a hot commodity, a popular show, and the fact they would be on was a story reported in magazines and newspapers.

Keep in mind, I followed all this stuff with the Beach Boys news coming out at that time, like many others on this board. Closely. Magazines, newspapers, news reports, Entertainment Tonight, the other TV showbiz gossip shows, all of it. If there was something even vaguely related to the Beach Boys coming on TV, I'd set the VCR and record it. My friends and some roommates at the times watched Baywatch religiously, I couldn't stand it but it was always on the TV whenever it was on. I owned the house VCR so I used to be asked to tape it for them to watch. Yep. And I followed Knight Rider very close in my younger years. Toured Universal Studios in the 80's, they had "KITT" there on display and I got in and talked to it. For laughs. Yep, that was me too, the show was already long in the tooth but i wanted to tell people I talked to the Knight Rider car. Only thing I forgot to do was wear a black Members Only jacket when i was there. They also had the A-Team van waiting for a shoot on the backlot that day, and Columbo's car was also being readied to go to LAX to shoot scenes for one of his TV movies that was filming at one of the terminals. Hooray for Hollywood!

So if I don't quite understand the points being made in terms of Baywatch, Hasselhoff, the Beach Boys involvement, the timelines, the whole deal...it's because the points I'm reading don't line up with what I remember from experience.

SIP was a sh*t album then(1992) and it's a sh*t album now (2015). Nothing is redeeming about Mike Love rapping about banging women by the pool (summer of love)....

Just to put this into more perspective, let's go back to the summer of 1995, specifically August 1995 when the Beach Boys filmed their appearances on Baywatch spread out over several shoots. The beach scenes with Stamos and Brian, the concert after that, etc.

This is from an article in the LA Times, mid-August 1995 talking to David Hasselhoff about the success of Baywatch and the upcoming spin-off Baywatch Nights that would be premiering that fall. This is the first passage, note the paragraph in bold:

Cover Story - "Club Baywatch"
August 13, 1995|BETH KLEID | Beth Kleid is a regular contributor to TV Times and Calendar

David Hasselhoff isn't big on sitting still. He jumps out of his chair and admires his new ornately carved desk ("Isn't it great?"). He shows off pictures of his two young daughters ("I'm totally addicted to them. I have to look at them"). He proudly points out a framed MAD magazine "Baywatch" spoof on the wall ("It's so irreverent, it's incredible").

And then all 6-foot-4 of this human dose of caffeine takes a rock-star stance and with a booming voice belts out the closing song for his new show, "Baywatch Nights." Ah, to be serenaded by Mr. Chest Hair himself.

"So, what were we talking about?" he says with an impish smile. Oh, "Baywatch Nights," the spinoff to Hasselhoff's global mega-hit "Baywatch."
With all of his unbridled energy, it comes as no surprise that Hasselhoff is executive producing and starring in a TV show that will run concurrently with "Baywatch," the syndicated series that just happens to be the most-watched show on the planet with 1 billion fans in 140-plus countries, including those in the United States who would never admit to watching the luscious lifeguards strut their stuff on the beach.

The most-watched TV show on the planet, 1 billion viewers in 140-plus countries, and these are stats that were current the exact month the Beach Boys filmed their guest appearances on the show.

Just getting the stats and facts out there for anyone interested.

And to correct some of the information online and on various "official" and semi-official discographies for the band, this is the cover for a single that was released in 1995 on the Scotti Brothers label to tie in with the Beach Boys appearing on Baywatch. It seems to have disappeared without a trace from some sources, and again some official listings for the band don't even list this one or get the release date wrong. Here it is in living color, it did exist in 1995:

(http://eil.com/images/main/Beach-Boys-Summer-Of-Love-52892.jpg)

My problem with SIP is the sound, it is mixed way too heavy and loud.. also I think it would have been better if it had more songs by Carl (not just singing but writing) and Al (same) it seems to lean too much towards Mike and Terry, and it has too many cover tunes.. don't get me wrong I like the harmonies on the cd (the strong suit of the album) take off the cover tunes, the Rap remix of Surfin (which I'm assuming it's on there because it has Brian's name on the credits) and add 2 or 3 Carl songs and 2 or 3 Al songs then it would have been a way better cd..IMO...my favorite song is "Lahaina Aloha"  and I also like "Island Fever" (US version) because of it's Bass line and harmonies.. I'm mixed on "Forever" because I can see why they did it, for publicity, but I also keep thinking about what if the Beatles had John Stamos singing a Lennon or a Harrison tune on a Beatles CD (after they both had died) it would not seem right and would seem kind of bizarre. I guess my thoughts are that it's cool to introduce this great Dennis Wilson song to a new Gen (even though on the full House episode it was Stamos who wrote the song) but would Dennis WANT it to be sung by Stamos or appear on a TV show? of course we can't know that but it makes me wishy washy on the inclusion of the song..

78 millions viewers drove Kokomo to #1 but a billion viewers couldn't  chart SOL?   Hmmmmmm.

The BB always seem to be too late to the party. See Here Comes the Night for more evidence.

 :thumbsup :thumbsup  Precisely, it's still a good target for a quick outdoors whiz. And while good music ages well, SIP just gets more embarrassing, sleazy, and tacky.

How do you feel about the Taylor Hawkins version of Holy Man?

that's in interesting thought....since it was left unfinished maybe it is okay,,,but again I'm not sure what Dennis would have thought about it. Since he's more "Rock N Roll" then Stamos maybe he would like it, but we can't be sure.. personally I like it better than Stamos singing Forever though...

 I love how on the Denny BBC documentary, Taylor denies that he was trying to emulate Denny's voice on Holy Man, when it's obvious he did just that (even if subliminally). I think he did a solid job though. Stamos did ok, but I have to erase the Forever 1992 music video from my head to even get into the song slightly.

 :-D This board's sarcasm knobby is likely on 11.  But it's a board largely founded on the genius of Brian Wilson -- not something associated with begin overly pruned.  This overgrowth is like a big comforting belch of creativity to many.  And creativity is now being linked to neuroticism, by the way. 

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/21/SmileySmileCover.jpg)

SmileySmile.net A happy place

I used to watch Baywatch every week for a few years here in the UK.  It had always been popular in Europe which was one of the reasons Hasselhoff took it on after the network cancelled it after the first season.  He saw the potential to sell across the world.

However, it's popularity was on the wane for some time.  Then one day I picked up the paper and saw the Beach Boys together again on the beach for the photoshoot and the talk about Baywatch Nights, which I don't remember airing over here.  I think it had had it's day by this point.  That's the way I remember it.

The most-watched TV show on the planet, 1 billion viewers in 140-plus countries, and these are stats that were current the exact month the Beach Boys filmed their guest appearances on the show.

Just getting the stats and facts out there for anyone interested.


[/quote]

These seem less like facts and more like Mr Hasselhoff telling the writer what he wants her to put in an article promoting his show.  A bit like Mike Love would do when discussing how many people had bough Kokomo. ;)

No one cared much about Baywatch in the UK by 1995. It was HUGE over here for a couple of years in the early 90s. Then Gladiators took over as prime Saturday teatime jerkoff fodder for dads and naughty schoolboys.

Please.... You used to jerk off with your dad? Eeew.... Too much information.

(http://editorial.sidereel.com/Images/Pages/jump_the_shark.jpg)

Nice reply TMinthePM - we may not agreee, but I better understand where you are coming from - it's an admirable position to take. 

I have read on in this thread, and it's a shame you feel we creeps have driven you off - come on back: if you're going to go out with a bang; let's not burn our bridges over SIP, FFS  ;D

  If SIP gave you joy once upon a time, great. I don't think anyone is crapping on your happy memories, instead, the simple consensus is SIP is a crap album. There may be an album that conjures happy memories for me; if you happen to dislike said album, it's not a personal insult.

 I am not any sort of dyed in the wool Mike Love basher. My contempt for SIP is fairly objective: Mike was the "recording captain" and SIP does reflect his vision. But every other member of the band shares some level of blame, with the exception of Brian, who for all intents and purposes wasn't in the group at the time.

And share in the credit for songs that do work on SIP.

Thanks, GF for that great photo. I guess one dynamic of Bay Watch series, that I found important, was the inclusion of lifeguards who were women.  It was a relatively short amount of time that women could be qualified to work the pools and beaches. A good role model for women.  There were women who worked the Jersey Shore during WWII. It was the early 70's before it became more mainstream. 

So, even thought it was still sort of "babe watch" - the "babes" had a skill set on par with the men.  ;)

And, of course the music would be BB's!  :thewilsons

 Which songs are those, Doc?

 The one cut I do not abhor would be the title song.

 I bought SIP when it was new in 1992. In those largely pre-internet days, I had no idea The Beach Boys had new product - just found it in the racks at the local record chain. When I saw the package, it looked like a pretty cool cover. Cautious optimism would be a good description for the mood of the moment.

 Imagine my disgust when I got home and played it. Is this what Mike Love thinks The Beach Boys are about? Why did Carl, Al, and Bruce participate and allow Mike to release this under the group's name? These and other questions went through my head. On occasion they still do. It's a lousy album, crass and offensive on nearly every level.

  SUMMER IN PARADISE joins the likes of VAN HALEN III, METAL MACHINE MUSIC, HAVING FUN WITH ELVIS ON STAGE, SOMETIME IN NEW YORK CITY in the ranks of truly damned, that is to say wretched product released by artists of great talent. 

I feel your pain, man!  It's been getting pretty hostile around these parts.  I'm finding that some of the chatty-er folks  around here (higher post counts) seem to have their minds made up about certain things and that's that!

When I poked a little fun at your thread title earlier, it was because I did initially misinterpret it as a SIP-bashing affair.  It struck me as one of those April Fools joke-type thread titles.  Before I even clicked into the thread I was thinking "Oh, here we go!"  I learned a long time ago that you gotta be a little careful about how you word the titles.  Folks don't always read the first few threads.  That's one reason I rarely start new threads on these boards.
 

Yup. What started out as an interesting thread quickly devolved into crap. And all due to the usual suspects.

And, I like SIP as well. They are the "happy sound track" - like what you like (don't listen to naysayers) and please don't lose your optimism...  ;)

We saw recently some confusion between the numbers and release dates in the UK versus the US regarding the film Cocktail, but that got straightened out. That might be at play here as well. I'm assuming that's the issue.

Because otherwise, I don't understand why this is being challenged, argued, debated, etc. What's the rub, where's the catch? I'm not seeing where it would be necessary to challenge or argue something which was widely reported in 1995, that Baywatch for better or worse was the most-watched TV program in the world at that time. I only posted one article referencing that, and it got challenged as David Hasselhoff PR shucking. Well, that was summer 1995 when the BB's were filming their appearance. Baywatch Nights had not even premiered yet, but was set to air that fall. Hasselhoff didn't need to sell that pilot, it was already booked into the syndication schedule. So to say he was shilling for the show, naturally he was, he's the exec producer.

But it doesn't discount the fact that Baywatch - again for better or for worse - was reported in 1995 as the most-watched TV show in the world. If it were worth more than a few seconds of time and effort, we could go back and dig up numerous articles to back this up from the summer of 1995. But it's silly - you either argue something for a reason or you argue for the sake of arguing. In this case, Baywatch was what it was, whether human culture suffered as a result is another debate for the sociologists to take up. But let me restate this:

In the summer of 1995, the exact time the Beach Boys filmed their appearances on the TV show Baywatch, it was reported as the most watched TV show in the world. Unless every major media outlet reporting this was wrong, unless they were all in the employ of doing publicity to boost David Hasselhoff's finances and career, those are the facts relevant to the time the BB's appeared on the show.

To back it up more, here is another article from the NY Times, July 1995, a month before the Beach Boys' film shoots for the show. If anyone disputes the information given here, then both the LA Times and the NY Times along with dozens of others reporting the same thing in summer/fall 1995 must have gotten it wrong. Pick and choose whose word to believe. This is just the way it was reported at the time:

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/07/03/business/media-television-stand-aside-cnn-america-s-no-1-tv-export-no-scoffing-please.html (http://www.nytimes.com/1995/07/03/business/media-television-stand-aside-cnn-america-s-no-1-tv-export-no-scoffing-please.html)

Quote:
Media: TELEVISION; Stand aside, CNN. America's No. 1 TV export is -- no scoffing, please -- 'Baywatch.'
By Bill Carter
Published: July 3, 1995

AMERICA'S most pervasive cultural export is a television show that was canceled after one season on NBC, has never earned an award or even any critical respect for dramatic excellence and is often derisively called "Babewatch."

But facts are facts. "Baywatch," which is about the adventures of lifeguards on a California beach but is really mostly about swimwear and suntan lotion, has a wider audience on the planet Earth than any other entertainment show in history.


Now if the issue being avoided here is how did this exposure on the world's most watched TV show at the time not translate into more sales and demand for the "new" Beach Boys music which was actually at that time 2-3 years old and a single and song from and album which had already tanked in 92-93...

...Perhaps, just perhaps (Cam)...it had more to do with the music not being what audiences wanted to hear from the Beach Boys. Maybe the decision to release a quasi-rap song wasn't in tune with what the market was looking for from the Beach Boys. Perhaps the music being promoted on the Baywatch show wasn't that appealing.

And I find it a bit odd to hear the phrase "late to the party" repeated again when the band was going on the most watched show in the world.

Anything to excuse the actual quality of the music as a factor? Excuse the poor decisions which led to Summer Of Love becoming the so-called "single" that no one wanted?

I guess a billion fans worldwide who watched Baywatch in 1995 yet didn't buy either the SIP album or demand a single can't be wrong.  :)

Speak for yourself. Some of us discuss things. If you don't like the discussions, don't post in the thread. Simple as that.

That is my point (Craig), a billion viewers worldwide didn't determine the popularity SOL, just like 78 million viewers didn't determine Kokomo's #1 popularity, both songs apparently rose and fell on their own merits.  Two way logic, I suppose.

The "late to the party thing" I must be guilty of, but it was "an observation and not a criticism." But, besides, sun tan lotion sales for Panama Jack, (some of us used baby oil and iodine!) kids could have watched worse TV.

When the show " concept" arose, perhaps the BB's should have been brought on board to write the theme or other program scores.  It did get serious global attention.  Whether it was serious drama, or not, or got critical acclaim, it was a favorite, and found its way into the culture. And who knows how many kids learned lifeguard skills as a result of a TV show?

(I could not bear to watch Knight Rider.)  :lol

Change it up any way possible, the fact is both Summer In Paradise and the Summer Of Love single failed miserably. Having a video appear on "the world's most watched TV program" couldn't revive music that had already flatlined and sank numerous times upon release in 1992, re-release in 1993, release on a Baywatch soundtrack in 1994, and the full-blown video treatment in 1995.

So logic, Cam...in your opinion, the forces and the people behind Kokomo whose hard work and skill drove that song to success, removing the Tom Cruise and Cocktail tie-in for discussion purposes...they're the same basic team that produced Summer In Paradise and Summer Of Love. Same creative forces behind those records. Getting exposure on a show watched by a billion people worldwide, it still failed and failed miserably. The same formula, the same production outlook was applied to SIP and Summer Of Love as was Kokomo, it was almost the same scenario where the band didn't have a label but was jumping on a soundtrack and going for TV exposure this time around (1995) versus film. Perhaps *more* viewers saw Baywatch in Fall 1995 than had seen Cocktail in summer/fall 1988. The film and Tom Cruise helped Kokomo, this time it was Baywatch and all the trappings of that show in '95.

So why did SIP and Summer Of Love fail so miserably? I ask, could it be because the music just wasn't that good and people did not want to buy those sounds from the Beach Boys?

Or another angle, what was it about the driving forces in and around the band as you see them that put Kokomo into the hit singles charts that failed with SIP and SOL despite having the same people doing the work?

Sometimes a fluke really is a fluke instead of a mandate or a template for success. Maybe having rap verses on a mediocre Beach Boys song just wasn't a wise choice for a single to offer to Baywatch's billion worldwide viewers in 1995. Just a thought.

Atta boy, GF. :woot  SIP and interesting thread in the same sentence ??? ??? Oxymoron for sure.  :thud

When the tread starter leaves here pissed, then yes, the thread devolved. Speaking for myself, this was a positive thread, so why didn't you say that to the negative posters that changed the original direction instead of Jason?

I liked the discussion just fine until it devolved into the same old crap. When posters bow out that is conclusive proof that the discussion has lost whatever merit it once had.

You have something on your nose, bruh.

That's soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo clever of you!!!  ::) Wow. OK. Tit for tat. Is that brown shoe polish all over your face or have you been hangin' out with the luHvster again?

Angle it any way you want but logic, in my opinion, is sometimes it is the very nature of Popular Music.  SOL failed and K excelled simply because people buy songs based on if they like them or not, regardless of their exposure or connection to a movie or show or even who put the song together. Otherwise every song ever in heavy rotation on MTV/VH1 or in a popular movie/soundtrack or on an even more massively popular TV show would all go to #1 it seems to me and I'm pretty sure that hasn't happened.

"Usual suspects", who are they in the first few pages of this one, then? The OP posted something asking about the negativity back on page 3 or 4, yet if you scan who posted up to that point, who exactly stands out as the usual suspects out to scupper another discussion?

And if the thread/topic is about opinions on Summer In Paradise, click on this link to an SIP discussion that goes back to 2005. The link goes to page 5 specifically.

After reading through this, then come on and tell us who the "usual suspects" are that have been bashing the SIP album on this board. And try to suggest it's something specific to those people posting here this week.

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,949.100.html (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,949.100.html)

So what would you say was the main reason behind Kokomo's success? Or what would you credit for that song's success that you might also blame if possible for SIP/SOL failing when similar components were involved in making and selling those as were behind Kokomo? Only difference in theory would be TV versus film, and in this case the TV may have reached a larger audience of potential record buyers.

How about, Kokomo is a good song and Summer Of Love, not so much? I had to laugh watching the video, seeing Brian in that video is enough to scare me away from watching, let alone buying it.

Someone uploaded some more bits from the 1995 Baywatch episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1AT9p2OPZU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1AT9p2OPZU) Hilarious stuff!

By the way, Summer of Love was three years old when it appeared on the show, right? Why did they use an old song from an album that was their biggest commercial failure ever?

Sorry but to save me scrolling through this thread in forensic detail AM I NOT CORRECT in saying that 'Summer Of Love' was never released as a single ? I certainly don't even recall a promo copy being issued......

If it was, can someone please point me in the right direction.

 

Here ya go, hope this helps

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bgas, you're a caution.

Cheers, that certainly helped  :smokin   :lol

ahhhh.......  
Succintly, I was presuming you were referring to vinyl.  

There was a USA promo CD single; cover and info borrowed from :  

  

Many thanks, honestly didn't realise it existed - Interesting reading the engineering credits. 

I would assume in part it was an awkward attempt for Mike to try to get the song, from a project that had been such a sales failure, to finally get some traction; a desperate move to prove that Kokomo wasn't a fluke (I say desperate since SIP didn't just sink and go away, but it kept coming back in different regurgitated forms, with no success at any point). I can't imagine that any of the Boys believed in the song as much as Mike, nor did any of them stand to feel as ego-wounded by its failure as Mike did. It's like "It's gonna be a hit one way or another, dammmit!", yet this obviously did not pan out as planned, for SIP or SOL, no matter how much re-recording, remixing, or TV show tie-ins were repeatedly attempted.

Not many artists would try not once, but twice after the initial release, to try and push the same product that had severely flopped both commercially and critically. It's like everyone got the memo that SOL blew chunks and should just go away - except Mike. Yet after 1995, SOL might as well have never existed in the band's canon, if one were to see how many times it every got mentioned by them again. Post-1995, I guess Mike must've gotten the memo.

Was SOL only used after the band nixed recording that new song they tried recording for the show (but then abandoned)? Was it the 2nd choice?

Even though I think SOL is the pits, Brian should have gotten a cowriting credit on SOL, since the chorus blatantly lifts his riff from Child of Winter, Wontha Come Out Tonight, Mike Come Back to LA, and Some of Your Love. Is that an instance of Mike not crediting Brian?

It must have crossed Mike's mind at some point, one would think, especially considering how hurt Mike had to have been when non-crediting happened to him.

So if it wasn't released as a single is that why it wasn't a hit?!

Or else, it wasn't as good as Kokomo.

Or how about the lyrics were more cheesy.

Maybe it was because, regardless of exposure some songs are hits and some aren't. 

  Mike probably just figured it was Games Two Can Play....

Yeah, I agree.

Great lead vocals.

Thin, unimaginative harmonies.

Half-assed material.

Plastic production.

Well, let's not undersell the production, about which words such as "horrific" and "abominable" seem insufficient. It takes real talent to make a snare drum sound like a metal sheet being struck by a tire iron.

Mike Love couldn't decide or choose or sign a contract to release "Summer Of Love" as a single without permission via a vote from the group.

Mike Love couldn't merely say, "Hey, everybody be at the TV studio by 1:00 PM. We're filming a video and a little dance to "Summer Of Love" without the agreement of the other guys via a vote from the group.

And since it is the topic of the thread, Mike Love couldn't dictate to the group what kind of album they would record, who the producer would be, and who the record company would (or wouldn't) be without consent from the group via a vote.

The Beach Boys were not a dictatorship, they were a corporation. It's easy to blame, and for several people on this board, to ridicule Mike Love. The reality is that all of the guys shared in the hits - and misses. They shared in both the praise and the blame. Again, on this board, several people don't understand that, or, understand it but prefer to be ignorant, because it's too hard, and in some cases impossible for them to make Brian Wilson, Carl Wilson, and Al Jardine accountable.

There is, of course, something to what you say.
But my sense is as time went on, it was just easier to roll with it, than fight Mike over the decisions that he ( alone) was probably making. That makes them all culpable for the decision, yes, but it's not as if they really "voted"' they simply let Mike do most of what he wanted.
 Al wasn't going to see things go his way no matter what.
Carl had more important things to do with his time then sppend it arguing with Mike

Al was nearly sacked from the band at the time, so I hardly think he was in any position to exert any power play. Carl probably went along with what Mike wanted; do you honestly think Carl was enthusiastic about this material? He did not wish to fight at this point in his life. Do you doubt that?

Face it: SIP and SOL are mostly Mike's babies, and the projects are *more* his "fault" than the other Boys', just as one can say it's *more* Brian's "fault" than the other Boys' that Smile was abandoned. Mike in the early 90s was riding high on Kokomo's success, so that had to have given him more power to have a project done more his way; just as if Al, instead of Mike, had written a #1 hit for The BBs in 1988, Al would probably have fenagled any 1992 BB album to be more Al's way, due to clout.

Not a question of clout so much as a matter of energy and ambition.

Carl was a spent force creatively, for reasons that remain somewhat mysterious. For whatever reasons, he failed to contribute a single song, arrangement, or production to the group in his last 12 years as a Beach Boy. And Al didn't have the drive or the leadership tools to take the reins.

Without Brian, there was a creative and leadership vacuum, and only Mike stepped up to fill it -- unsuccessfully, as it turned out.

But even for SIP, Mike and Terry hardly monopolized the songwriting. They contributed only what -- 6 songs? Plenty of room for songs from the other guys, if they were up to it.

I'm anything but convinced that if Al had readily offered a song, that he could have just gotten the song on SIP. He barely got to even sing on the album as a form of punishment.

I've been posting more on here lately thanks to two things: I recently lost my very time consuming job, which enabled me to finally rebuild my digital Beach Boys catalog.  As I began organizing everything again, I had some questions and posted them to the board and while I was really bummed out no one had anything to even say about any of them, beyond Andrew and a few others commenting on the original version of "Come Go With Me", that didn't sting nearly as much as then seeing this thread on the band's most infamous, if not outright worst album explode beyond 200 replies in just a couple days.

But since we're on the topic (tho by now, just barely still), I figured I'd toss the questions related to this one out here.  Any ideas?

Summer In Paradise: I know it's probably been answered before but why we're the "UK tracks" rerecorded?  Was the idea to improve them or did they think the alternate versions would appeal to those on the other side of the pond??  Who was behind the idea?

Nah, the reason people don't compare the two producers is that Joe Thomas seems to ruin things that might be great with a different production/sound ... Whereas Summer in Paradise would probably have been just as awful no matter how you slice it.

I seriously hope it was only their 2nd choice... I mean, you get these guys on one of the most successful TV shows of the 90s and instead of bothering to write and produce just one (!) new song (or even just rework something from the vaults) they give the producers what many consider to be their worst song ever, taken from an old album that was an outright embarrassment both in terms of sales and reviews? It's pretty incredible either way I guess...

The main reason is people love Kokomo and they don't SOL. That is it, imo. People heard both at a movie or on TV and they love K and they don't SOL. Promotion doesn't make people like it.

 Sounds more like a reward to me.  :lol

The use of Summer of Love must have had something to do w/ this bit in the lyrics: We'll be California dreamin' Baywatchin' everyday

How do we know these choices/decisions weren't made by the Scotti Bros or Hasselhoff or some Baywatch director or producer?

Btw, what happened to Melcher's taste level regarding production style? Back in the day, he produced some great records by the Byrds and Paul Revere and the Raiders.

And it's not that the SIP production was particularly current in the early 90's either, which would be an excuse. It was more mid-80's.

Probably. But that reason gets excused, rationalized, sympathized with, and Mike Love gets...blamed. As Mel Bernstein uttered before getting blown away by Tony Montana, "It didn't make any sense".

Start with our beloved brother Brian. Do we know that he WASN'T asked to participate in the recording of Summer Of Paradise. When did the Beach Boys NOT want him to write or record with them? Was he mad because he wasn't gonna be the producer? Did he want to keep all of his new songs for himself? Was Landy still controlling him? Was a girlfriend influencing him? Was he pissed at Carl because he was petitioning for a conservatorship? I ask these questions because I don't know the answers. I do know that - well, I don't know but I'm pretty sure - that Brian Wilson CHOSE to NOT be on The Beach Boys' new album. Does anybody know if he signed a contract for a new Beach Boys' album and got paid for it?

I don't have many problems with Carl Wilson and Summer In Paradise. I think it's one of his best albums vocally. People blast the "Forever" cover, but Carl saves it with one of the most emotional vocals of his career. But, why didn't Carl contribute any songs of his own? Did he have any? Well, maybe he was tired. No, he was uninspired. No, he was reluctant - just singing but nothing else, take it or leave it. No, it was because he didn't wanna fight. Why did he have to...fight? Just vote "No" to the album and Al votes "No" and Brian votes "No" and there's no album. Who needs to fight?

And then there's good old Al. I guess he wasn't "allowed" to offer any songs. Did he have any? Maybe he played his last ace with "Island Girl"? No, Mike was pissed at Al and Al was pissed at...the set lists and the cheerleaders and the excessive touring and the direction of the band and on and on. Sorry Al, no soup for you.

Hey, we can't forget about Bruce. He was allowed to offer a song, and what does he contribute? Half of a cover of a 1958 Danleeer's song.

FORGET ABOUT ALL THE ABOVE!!!!!! Summer In Paradise was Mike Love's fault!!!!!!

You guys remember when Still Cruisin' came out. Weren't you a little disappointed and didn't you want a FULL Beach Boys album? Of course you did. In those days you couldn't wait for a new Beach Boys' album. Who was the one pushing for a new Beach Boys' album? Brian? Carl? Al? After "Rock And Roll To The Rescue" and "California Dreamin" and "Kokomo" and "Somewhere Near Japan" and some others, was Terry Melcher such a bad choice? And who approved of that choice via a vote? And, in my opinion, "Still Surfin", "Lahaina Aloha", "Strange Things Happen", "Island Fever", and "Summer In Paradise" are good songs; not great songs, but good songs.

However, Summer In Paradise is NOT a good album (and "Summer Of Love" is the worst song in the entire Beach Boys' catalog). It's not a bad album; it's hard for The Beach Boys to make a bad album. There's some good new songs on there, two of the oldies are OK, and Carl and Al's vocals save the album. It's probably the worst Beach Boys' album if you rank 'em. You take off "Summer Of Love", "Surfin", and "Remember Walkin' In The Sand" - and add "Don't Let Her Know She's An Angel", "Hotter", and maybe "The Spirit Of Rock And Roll" and you have a much stronger album.

Mike Love came up with a lot of ideas, some good and some not so good. But, at least he was trying. You can't fault him for that even though many do. In some ways he was just trying to give us, the fans, something good. Something extra. SOMETHING! Whether it be cheerleaders at a concert, or a tribute album featuring country singers, or a summer-y album. And we fans always want something MORE from The Beach Boys. That never changes. Well, Mike was the one who was trying to give us more. Sure, you can criticize his ideas and some warrant criticism. I'M NOT DENYING THAT. But, as a Beach Boys' fan for over 40 years, I have a different perspective, a perspective that has changed over the years. At least Mike was trying, trying being the key word. And I appreciate that. I have a hard time blaming people who are trying, especially people who are trying to give me a new Beach Boys' album. To me, I still don't understand (well, actually I do understand) why fans are so quick to EXCUSE Beach Boys who were tired, burned out, uninspired, didn't want to fight, gave their vote to somebody else, and maybe just didn't care - and blame the one who is TRYING to do something good for the fans.

I mostly agree with the Sheriff, but what he maybe misses is that there is something comic about misplaced confidence. There is an impression of Mike rubbing his hands together and saying,  "Don't worry boys, I've got this covered" -- and then falling on his ass.

That said, it is the confident people -- as Brian currently is and was at points in the past -- who accomplish things.  And SOL was awful, granted, but the rest of the Love/Melcher songs were perfectly fine complementary numbers. They would have filled out quite nicely a Beach Boys lp comprised mainly of the best of Brian's Sweet Insanity-era songs.

It appears that myKe luHv easily pulled you in hook, line and sinker. "...for the fans." ?? Really? To line his pockets with money would be far more in line when speaking of the greedster. Put anything, anything out no matter how horrible as long as it has the BB name on it, who cares, myKe luHv ??? ??? Alimony's a bitch, isn't it?? :tm

No, I'm not missing that. I admitted above that some of Mike's ideas warrant criticism. But Summer In Paradise isn't one of them. It was the implementation of the concept that fell on its ass, and I don't blame Mike for that. You admitted above, and I agree with you, that "the Love/Melcher songs were perfectly fine complementary numbers". When Brian decided that he was "out", the project should've been nixed. But it wasn't. It was approved by the group. Why? Could one of the answers start with the letter m and end with the letter y?

First, in fairness to Melcher, he "isn't here" to defend himself.  And, he did have a significant corpus of successful industry work.

Second, I like Stars and Stripes.  As much as I've talked about "late to the party" - this one might have been "early to the party" in fairness to Thomas, who "is here" to defend himself. Country really became hot not long after the release.  I like that they brought in old-country (Willie Nelson) alongside new-country (Lorrie Morgan, etc.) to do leads with BB background vocals. It is beyond me, that this production didn't do really well.  

Controversial opinion or not, I like Melcher's production style on Kokomo and Somewhere Near Japan more than Joe Thomas' production style on the vast majority of his work with Brian/BBs. SIP, however ,is where Melcher dropped the ball.

:lol

The thing is, undoubtedly Al and Carl's voices are virtually the only saving grace of SIP. If they had been absent, the album would have much fewer redeeming qualities. I wonder if Carl's mindset was "I know this material is subpar, but at least my voice will bring some dignity to it, if it's going to be released as a BB product".

(http://i58.tinypic.com/29w5p28.jpg)

Al was kicked out of the band before they started the record and was only allowed back in when it was almost finished. If I was fired from my job, but still showed up expecting to wok, I'd probably get slapped with a restraining order. It is ridiculous and idiotic to put part of the blame for SIP on Al for this reason.

And as far as "they could have said 'no'. Mike was only a few years removed from Kokomo, the biggest hit they would have. Does anyone honestly think Mike would have stepped aside if Carl presented something he wrote? Mike, back then especially, was all about the hits and to him, hits for the BB were all about the Kokmo formula. If Carl was writing, he may have felt whatever he was working on 1.) might not get a fair hearing from the de facto leader at the time 2.) might not have been a good fit to the style that Mike and Terry  Melcher were developing. Even the cover songs they did on SIP are Kokomo-ish.

Regarding SOL... Wasn't the Wilson-Love penned "Baywatch Nights" song going to be in its place?

I agree! In my opinion, Somewhere Near Japan/Kokomo was their best 80s sound by far, much more interesting than what Steve Levine had come up with a couple years prior. Also, while it's a pretty slick style overall, I find it much more aurally satisfying than the Joe Thomas stuff. For example, I really like the way Melcher used to draw attention to each individual singer's voice - very 80s but pretty good nonetheless!

Completely disagree. I hate hate hate HATE Melcher's production at that time period. Very brittle and plastic sounding, and no different from Thomas's horrible production on Imagination.

No reason for Mike having to step aside. Mike and Terry wrote only half an album. It seems unlikely that Mike would have rejected a song from Carl in favor of a cover of 'Walking in the Sand' (which is not at all a Kokomo-like song, btw). And are you saying that Mike was completely in charge, with Carl having no say whatsoever? Mike could veto a Carl song? I find that to be implausible.

The cover songs were turned into Kokomo-clones. That is what I meant.

And yes, I could easily see Mike turning down something that he felt didn't fit his vision.

Look at him during smile and multiply that by x1000 by Kokomo and SIP. The man's ego was at deranged levels at that point in 1992.

The look on Carl's face at 0:07 in an interview from that era basically says it all.

http://youtu.be/jfs7jm3uJdM

Well, we've gone from the joys of SIP to trying to put an asterisks next to the record of a homerun hit without the BBs' star player to imaginary insults. Well done everybody. (slow clap)

Could the Beach Boys, as they were constituted in 1992, have produced a good album under any conditions? Is Mike to blame for thinking they could? What would have been the ideal alternative to SIP?

In hindsight, they should have waited for Brian, but at the time they had no way of knowing when, if ever, he'd be ready to rejoin the band.

http://www.ew.com/article/1995/03/31/back-beach From March 31st, 1995

Pop maestro Brian Wilson, 53, brother Carl, 50, and cousin Mike Love, 54, are gathered round the microphone, just like old times, singing one of those unmistakable harmonies that so often lifted the Beach Boys to the top of the charts. But this is no oldies show. The three are actually working on a new song, happily crooning, ”Meet me somewhere out in Malibu!” ”We’re putting Carl’s guitar on next,” announces Brian Wilson, ”which will make it even more raucous. It might even fly away. It’s good enough to totally fly out of the universe.”

The song is tentatively slated for submission to a new syndicated TV spin-off called Baywatch Nights. But Wilson is so pleased with the results, he’s reluctant to let it go for anything other than a Beach Boys album. ”We need this kind of a song,” he insists. ”You can’t throw away your ace.”

Baywatch Nights/Dancin' the Night Away  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgJLQeWdHTs

SIP a homerun? I don't know what you're smoking  :smokin Cam  :smokin but I'd really like to get some.    

Kokomo is the homerun.

I'm of the opinion that, yes, a good album could have been produced if - if - they could've/would've (whichever) gone along with Mike's idea and filled in the gaps. Brian hadn't released a solo album in four years and had enough songs stockpiled. Maybe he could've provided three or four of them to The Beach Boys:

01  Mike & Terry - Island Fever
02  Mike & Terry - Still Surfin'
03  Mike & Terry - Strange Things Happen
04  Mike & Terry - Lahaina Aloha
05  Mike & Terry - Summer In Paradise

06  Brian - The Spirit Of Rock And Roll
07  Brian - Don't Let Her Know She's An Angel
08  Brian - Rainbow Eyes

09  Oldie - Hot Fun In The Summertime
10  Oldie - Under The Boardwalk

11  Carl - ?
12  Al - Don't Fight The Sea
13  Bruce - Slow Summer Dancin' (One Summer Night)

Pick any three Brian songs, they're better than the songs you're eliminating (Summer Of Love, Remember Walking In The Sand, and Surfin'). I don't mind keeping "Forever"; I think it's a good cover, Carl sings his heart out, and Stamos was very popular at that time. Anybody for the Spanish version of "Kokomo"? Anyway, just the additions, and more importantly the subtractions, make it a stronger album, even respectable.

Whoa.  Above you asked how do we know Brian wasn't asked to be a part of SIP, now you are asserting that it was his choice?  Did I miss a step?  Was this proven somewhere in-between your two posts?

EoL

OK...It's 2015.  Things have changed.  It's been a LONG time since Carl and Dennis were more than memories added up on the video screen at a Beach Boys show.  It's been eons since Kokomo and SIP...and WAY longer than that for everything else except for TWGMTR which was hardly an across the board/one in every home hit album.  3 weeks ago LAST night I went to see the Beach Boys.  The crowd although predominantly 'older' [50s-70s] also included loads of folks in their 20s, 30s and 40s...and the song which seemed to be MOST appreciated by the majority of the people in attendance?  I'd say that very clearly it was Kokomo.  First time I've seen that but then I haven't seen the Beach Boys live since Carl passed away.  Obviously it wouldn't be an 'item' at a Brian show.  Kokomo and Barbara Ann might have been the biggest tunes in terms of audience response.

But, and I have to keep reminding myself of this FACT.  A Beach Boys show...Mike and Bruce et al...is a P A R T Y.  And it works...BIG time.

I love the song myself.

I believe that Kokomo received the biggest response in Cincinnati for C50 as well.  I wasn't surprised because I think most people like the Beach Boys for the fun, as you indicated.  That isn't my experience so I can't relate (I like the summer/surf stuff, but not because it's fun).  I wish more people liked music for reasons other than fun, perhaps then we wouldn't have the crapola we have on the radio today, but it is what it is.  Lots of people like Stamos and Barbara Ann and Kokomo.  What can I say, I don't fit in in a lot of other ways either.

EoL

I guess it does, as an oldies/nostalgia show. Me, I prefer the rock pop jewels  of Pet Sounds and after. If Paul and Ringo were touring as the Beatles doing 80% pre 1966 songs, they'd be crucified.
             I Can Hear Music. .........

But the premise of the question is " as they were constituted in 1992" -- that is, with Brian not involved. (Do we know the full story behind why he wasn't? Too soon after Landy?) If they had waited a year, yes this new and improved SIP might have been possible.

But really, does your revised track listing constitute a "good" album? I'd rank it on the same level as BB'85 -- not good, exactly, but a step up from KTSA-like mediocrity. B minus, maybe? C plus?

My conclusion is that the 1992 version of the band needed outside help in order to produce a good album, a hit album. Don Was producing? Song doctors? Aerosmith wasn't above bringing in songwriting pros to help out Steven Tyler and Joe Perry in the 90's.
 
I blame Mike only for trying to do what could not be done.

I think this is a great analogy.  It seems to me Brian saw where things were going in the mid 60s and sought to stay ahead of the curve.  Regardless of the reason that didn't work out.  At some point Mike gave up/realized that without Brian leading the way he had two choices: hang it up or Endless Summer.

EoL

I TOO prefer the Brian presentation...mainly because of the songs he includes.  But I was very impressed with the Beach Boys circa 2015 and enjoyed it way more than I thought I would.  I expected it to be 'nice'.  It was far beyond that.  I recommend it unabashedly.

It's a very good band for sure. Just think it should be the "C50 Five" or not billed as the Beach Boys. No Carl, Brian, Dennis, Al, David - Not the Beach Boys.

But the're licensed by BRI...as the Beach Boys.  Heck...Jeff has been a Beach Boy, or with Brian, for close to 35 years.  Mike obviously can lay claim...and he sang close to half the leads on their hits.  Bruce has been a part of it for over 50 years...since California Girls/Summer Days.  Scott and John have been around for years and do the show proud.  They have enough credentials and the legal right to be called the Beach Boys.  So too would Brian...with Al, Blondie and his amazing crew but Brian has voted [as have the others in the business structure] to have Mike and his gang represent the name...and they do it week after week, month after month, year after year.  NO ONE else can make that claim.

As such?  I'n 100% 'good' with it. :hat

Oh christ. Having a license doesn't make them the BBs. The Temptations have a license but it isn't the Temptations singing out there in 2015. (well, one of them, sometimes).

My first BB show was December 31st, 1973 in Long Beach CA. Saw them several more times in the 70's. That was the Beach Boys! No Wilsons, not the Beach Boys.

The M&B show is equivalent to a Herman's Hermits show. Peter Noone does a great oldies show with a very good band.

I'll be darned - and I really hesitate to jump back into this - but I do believe SUMMER IN PARADISE (THE TRACK) IS A STRAIGHT REWRITE OF LET IT BE!

I have long thought there was a lyrical kinship, but while running SIP today began singing LIB, and it fits - I think.

Now I'll have to dig out the chart and see if it works harmonically.

hmmm...

It's more than a licence though… it's Brian and Al's blessing along with that of Carl's estate. You can't get higher authority than that. And I doubt if Herman's Hermits or the Temptations have quite the audience-draw…

Just as a quick jump back to this point... it's indisputable that Baywatch was absolutely huge worldwide around that time.  Anyone who wants to say Hasselhoff was just bigging it up -- nope.  Far too many reliable reports from industry papers back him up.

However:  worldwide broadcasts wouldn't help "Summer In Paradise" that much given that it wasn't released worldwide.

Given that we're really only talking about US and UK releases for the album...  well, we'd have to look at the ratings in those two countries.  And it's possible to make a case that Baywatch was beginning its downswing in the US...  ratings info of that sort is patchy, but I've found records of it getting a 6.9 rating in November 1994 and 5.3-5.5 ratings in November/December 1995 (i.e, a few weeks after the "Summer of Love" episode).

Cause and effect?  I'm sure some people would like to think so.  :-)  But more generally, you could actually argue that the Beach Boys had missed the party somewhat -- in their target market, Baywatch was no longer the king of syndication, but instead rating a bit lower than "Hercules", "Xena", and "Star Trek:  Deep Space Nine".

Now, maybe if Mike had booked them *there*...!

Cheers,
Jon Blum

Now, maybe if Mike had booked them *there*...! Yep, sure got me thinking

Anna Lee's 'Hercules'

'Xena' Come-a come-a come-a come to me

Star Trek : How Deep is the Space Nine Ocean ?


My coat is ready  ::)

Well, as I posted earlier, when it was determined that - for whatever reason - Brian would not be participating, the project should've been shelved, or, as you stated, put on hold UNTIL Brian did come around. Frankly, I'm surprised that the project did get the green light, but I also gave my reason WHY I thought it was ultimately approved by BRI.

I think my revised track listing is "good" at best. I wouldn't go any further than that because it lacks great songs. I can understand why some would say "mediocre", but by eliminating some tracks you escape "bad".

We can guess why Brian didn't participate on SIP but it would be nice to know definitively (which is sometimes impossible with Brian) because during Landy's second stay, with the exception of "Kokomo", Brian participated in some degree on most of The Beach Boys' projects including singles, albums, TV appearances, TV series, etc.

So we are back to uncertainty now?

EoL

Maybe I am off the mark here, but I listen to what I like and what I like is fun for me. I have fun listening to music, even if it is in a traffic jam at rush hour. While I kind of get where you were going with your remark, understand that when people go to concerts, they expect to have fun, even at Brian Wilson concerts. ;) 

I understand what you are saying.  I wouldn't say I listen to music for fun.  I'm not even sure I have fun while listening.  Maybe.  It's more of a personal and emotional experience.  I'm not sure I can define it, but I'm pretty sure I would not describe it as fun.  There are exceptions, I have been to concerts I would describe as fun (for myself).  This usually involved stage diving or some sort of fist-pumping rebellion against one form of purported authority or another.  It was fun, but only because I was releasing a deeper angst or emotion.  It was not "innocent fun" like I suppose my children are having when we go to an amusement park.

To each his own.  I don't have dancing-in-the-aisles fun at a Beach Boys concert, I'm too reserved for that (my stage diving days are long over, that behavior was an anomaly).  But I realize many do, and that is what Mike appeals to, I get it.  I think Brian appreciates this as well, but I think there is a greater depth with Brian.  I relate much more to this perceived depth than the fun, fun, fun.

EoL

I never took myself that seriously to feel that way, except for certain songs like IJWMFTT that struck a nerve. Most probably why I prefer upbeat, faster type songs over ballads and slower introspective type songs. Remember, with Brian, he wrote all that stuff. Throughout his career he touched on all facets of feelings and emotions that one goes through growing up. That is the main reason for me loving the Beach Boys; they hit on all emotions that I was going through growing up. I feel quite fortunate to have it in my life, still do. :)

Just to clear it up, that project was mentioned in numerous articles and came from the Was/Paley time. The first I heard of it at the time was Don Was mentioning it in a magazine. Baywatch Nights was set to air in the Fall of 95 as a separate spinoff, and Hasselhoff wanted to incorporate more music into the storylines so he cast Lou Rawls to play a nightclub owner where the plots would bring them into that nightclub and the music would be less "pop/beach/etc" and lean more toward blues...in concept. That's why Lou Rawls was cast.

I remember clearly following all of this as it played out in the press, because quite frankly it was major news in the world of the Beach Boys that Brian and Mike had been writing new songs and one of them was going to be on "Baywatch Nights" when that show finally premiered in the fall of 95.

Then the reports that summer of the filming at the beach for Baywatch (the original, not 'Nights') didn't add up, as it reported Brian being there for one video shoot (I remember thinking this had to be the Brian-Mike Baywatch Nights appearance) but he didn't show for the concert on the beach and David Marks showed up to play guitar instead. It wasn't adding up (at the time) when or how either the guys or this "new" Wilson/Love original song would actually show up on TV, so in those pre-internet days (for me at least), I followed all the papers and mags and even TV Guide, which would drop hints about what was happening.

Keep in mind what a shock it was when the Beach Boys actually ***did*** appear on something connected to Baywatch, and it was them miming in a video for a song that was three years old and featured hardly any of the musicians shown in the video actually on the track, and it was prominently a vehicle for Mike rapping the verses. And the concert and plot itself was written around the Beach Boys creating a "new" song for a charity written into the plot, only problem was the song itself was familiar to any BB's fan and it was also 3-years old, the title track of a failed album from 1992.

It was one of the most baffling, WTF? moments as a fan that i can remember, because one of the sad things was that there had been a positive buzz and anticipation going around that there would be a new Wilson-Love song connected to a new show called Baywatch Nights that was going to have Lou Rawls cast as a music nightclub owner...and instead we got whatever that Summer Of Love video was supposed to be, Mike rapping and Stamos playing electronic drums in the sand. It still makes absolutely no sense, and it didn't line up with what fans may have expected to see on TV if they had been reading the press reports leading up to it.

Just a total wasted opportunity and one which makes no sense at all. IMO

In fairness, CD - that video was "clipped" from a 1991 interview in Japan. It is not in the context of the interview.

How many of us make faces or look intense from thought or look serious? Carl looks tired, perhaps understandably jet-lagged.

Here is the interview in proper context.  ;)

http://youtu.be/KMiqDuH-vxl

Hope it copies...

If not, it is

"The Beach Boys Live in Japan '91 Interview"

I get where you are coming from, and I have in no way experienced the depths of pain that Brian Wilson has, so I don't mean I can relate to the extent of his despair.  But for whatever reason his music strikes a chord with me and, as I've said before, the "happy" songs are sometimes as sad for me as the sad songs.

Yes, people can look tired, but do you think it's impossible that Carl maybe, just maybe, found the way Mike was gloating about Kokomo to be a bit over the top, and that he perhaps tired of hearing Mike brag about it so many times?

Do you truthfully consider that to be an absolutely impossible scenario?

Are you relying on the interview or the parody? It makes a difference. 

Carl involved himself in many projects, that some ''now"consider to be tacky.  They all did. 

That song put the band back on the map in a big way. "Gloating" is a value judgement. Mike had man good reasons to be proud of a #1 hit in many years. As did they all.

You didn't answer my question: do you really think it's absolutely impossible that Carl's look on his face was possibly due to feeling that Mike was going on and on about Kokomo? Can you respond to that question? I'd assume either you think it's possible (but unlikely), or absolutely, categorically impossible. Which is it?

After all, we have on record instances such as Old Man River sessions, where Mike got sick and tired of working on material over and over again, and his feelings on the matter obviously came to light. I don't see why it's impossible to think that other members of the band got tired of various stuff, and their feelings leaked out too - case in point, Al "bad attitude" Jardine around this same time. I'm not trying to throw either Carl or Mike under the bus, just being realistic that it makes little sense to try and pretend that there wasn't a gloat-a-thon going on which could have worn on other members. That's not impossible.

And I have seen the entire interview, separate from the parody video.

CD - I haven't a clue, on this planet, as to why Carl made a face.  It is unrealistic to imagine why anyone makes a face. You can't take a "walk through someone's cranium," a wise professor once told a class I took.

And I fail to understand why, if you ask a question, why you think you can demand a response. This is supposed to be an open forum on music, not a court of law.  Just sayin'

You can answer or not answer anything you want... just let's not pretend it's any kind of actual conversation at that point, once you refuse to answer. I might as well ask you for the time and your reply is "quack".

You were given a plausible response; but not the one you wished.  And I found it to be a ridiculous theory.

You must have the gift of a mind reader to assert you know what is going in someone else's mind.

Sorry.

Yes, you can't take a "walk through someone's cranium," but on the same token, you also can't say it's impossible that he felt the way I am assuming he felt either.  How does that not work both ways?

I am willing to say I myself cannot be certain I'm right either. I could be wrong. You don't seem to be able to say the same thing. That, above all else, is the point I'm trying to make.

CD - I have no knowledge of these sessions and won't be relying on a discussion board to make a judgement of a band member. 

You just did make a judgment by saying that Carl had jetlag. How is that not making a judgment one way or another?

Point is, you could be wrong, and I could be right... or vice versa.  Only someone who thinks it's categorically impossible that they are wrong would be afraid to say that this is the case.

No, jet lag isn't a judgement.  It is a reasonable inference, knowing that the band lives in the U.S., and would have to travel a distance to get there.  it has nothing to do with the type of person I think he is. It is neutral.

Carl has the look of "here Mike goes again about Kokomo" ::)

Smile Brian - how about the possibility, since it is a press conference that there is an agreed upon set of "talking points" which is what press and publicity people get paid to do?

Carl has the same bored expression throughout the entire interview.

Maybe it is his don't-ask-me-anything look?

Anything for defending Mike's crass statements and behavior in the interview. Even throwing Carl Wilson under the bus by implying he was in a bad mood, suffering from jet lag, etc.

How about he was actually annoyed with Mike Love acting like the "end all, be all" of the BBs since the fluky success of kokomo's hit status due to "cocktail".

My recollection is that Mike asked for complete control on SIP and got it. He complained to Goldmine that Still Cruisin' was supposed to have been an album of all songs used in movies, but that it got watered down because Al wanted to have a song on the album, Brian (or Landy) insisted on having a song on the album. He also complained about Levine's production on BB85. That album was really Carl's baby; he picked the producer, was the one really pushing the guys to do new music at that point. Too bad he didn't bring Youngblood producer Jeff Baxter to produce the album. I was not at all surprised that Brian was not involved in SIP - after that terrible, slanderous book with his name on it, I didn't expect to EVER see Brian with the BB's again.

Why this is such an impossible option for some people to just at least *consider* is beyond my comprehension. The same few people could at least just say "while I doubt that's the case, it is possible".

That would be an actual neutral opinion.

How about we just use "jet lag" as the reason that Dennis rudely yanked Mike's hat off onstage, and the reason why Shawn never received paternal recognition. These wacky Boys were always flying around, so jet lag is the reason for any and all behavior. Makes sense to me. Then we can all be "neutral" and no blame ever assigned to anyone. Right? Right?

I don't understand why you always force these silly question on people.  They seem to show up in nearly every Mike Love related thread.  Of course it's possible!  It's always the same few people who give their opinion, then you randomly come in to ask "don't you think it's possible that (insert negative light cast on Mike)?" 

Thing is, you're the one who is sitting around making up hypothetical situations that paint Mike in the worst light possible and then getting angry when people don't agree with you or want to argue with you endlessly about it.

It's what he does and why I got out from participating in the thread. He doesn't get that we are only giving opinions to things that simply have no correct answer.

While my posts might make you think otherwise, the truth is that I'm not looking to argue endlessly. I'm pointing out that it's preposterous that people cannot concede that they *may* not be correct in their assumptions. Since I'm fully capable of conceding that about my own assumptions - I am saying point blank that I MAY BE WRONG - I'm not sure why it's so hard for others to do the same. Does that sound like extremist words to you?

Extremism is people who refuse to admit they could ever be wrong. Don't you think?
 
I'm trying to make a point that yes, we are all reading in certain things into what we see in this interview clip, and yes, we ALL cannot know for sure that we are right. That's a neutral and well-balanced point of view as one could hope to have, yet it's pulling teeth to get a few people to simply say that.

On the other hand, you're always pushing back with the Mike is solely to blame bit. Just like you never concede that others may be correct, why would anyone concede their POV to you?

Firstly, kindly don't put words in my mouth. Any "solely to blame" stuff has not been said by me. "More" to blame about certain things than others? Yes, in my opinion. Also, please don't use the word "always"... shades of grey, man.  That's my mindset.

But I'm saying point blank that my opinions may not always be 100% correct. You heard it here first. Perhaps the answer is somewhere in the middle a bunch of the time.  Is there anything vague or unclear about that?

People who won't admit their mindset could possibly be faulty some of the time (particularly about "unprovable" things) truly create the most divisive, absurd atmosphere here. Anyone who can't concede they may not be 100% right in their assumptions absolutely contributes to this. Do you dispute that?

I made a mistake once.

I thought I was wrong about something but it turned out I was right all along.

It's the Beach Boys. When have they done anything that made sense? ;p

http://articles.latimes.com/1995-08-17/entertainment/ca-36177_1_beach-boy A nice article from 95, if anyone wants to read more on the Beach Boys Baywatch saga. I luv how Al says Brian is a leprechaun  ;D

Perhaps we should rate our opinions on a certainty percentage scale. As in, "Terry Melcher's production on SIP gave the record a flat, plasticky sound (71%)", or "Carl was disengaged in the making of SIP (64%)". :)

"Brian is an enigma, a leprechaun," said rhythm guitarist Al Jardine. "I had a dream in which the four of us are together in a phone booth--and Brian's on the other side of the street, looking on at us from a distance. You could say he's a bit reclusive."

What an image! This should've made it into the biopic!

It was early 90's coming off the heels of techno-music.  Next to that, it might even sound mellow.  It is already nearly 25 years, and what is mostly wrong is the presentation and not the actual music. Lahaina Aloha is brilliant.  And Carl's vocals are incredible.  It was recorded between 1991 and mid 1992. Brian was in the process (thanks to Melinda) of being extricated from that late, purported medical provider.  I do like the MIC version of SIP.  It rocks, live. It, coupled with Don't Go Near the Water from 1972 on Surf's Up are activist-based, whether they were hits, or not.  It is the awareness raising that matters to me.   ;)

save $$, oh, too late now...  

bgas - you just made my day!  :lol

One for you, baby!  :beer

Problem is, you are the one placing yourself in the moderate center of the spectrum of opinions. Nobody else is doing it. Perhaps because nobody sees you that way. It's not up to you to place yourself in that spectrum; you have to let those who read your posts do that, and deal with lt.

You can certainly feel free to think that I'm some sort of extremist if you want to, but how do you reconcile that I can admit that I might be wrong, while others (not myself) refuse to admit that they could possibly be wrong when specifically asked such, thus implying that they know 100% they are correct without a shadow of a doubt?  

This isn't a contest, but I'm simply proving a point that anyone on this board should at least concede that while they may feel strongly about certain things, unprovable assumptions are just that.  We can argue and bicker all we want, but the end of the day, there are certain things that we might not be totally, completely correct about. *All of us*. Don't you think? If we all were a bit more self-deprecating  and not so incredibly defensive, it certainly wouldn't hurt.

I definitely do not see him that way. If he is moderate, then I am misreading everything single post. It must be the wording. I also don't like being called out after I have decided that I have had enough participating in the arguing. I'll stick around if a thread stays in "discussion" mode, but once the calling out starts, it turns me right off. I am here for enjoyment, not for arguing. :)

I think the better deal would be getting that trainwreck of an album :tm for free if you buy the Tone(with coupon).  :tm

Listeners might have needed the bar of soap to wash off after listening...

ahh, that was a bit harsh.  ;)

 :lol :lol No, it was kind of a mild soap. It was the koko butter(degreaser) that actually washed the filth away after listening.   ;)

SSDD.