"Kokomo" is a great song

[Sheriff John Stone]

But, I will always believe, even to this day, that they (all of the guys) would want Brian there - even in his damaged and difficult state - because they never knew when he might come up with something brilliant, whether it be a song, an arrangement, a chord, or a note....

[Wirestone]

RBB -- I wouldn't go that far. Nice try.

I think Mike does like Brian's work, but his own perspective (often a commercial one) and personality limit how he expresses it. I think he also wildly overestimates his importance and talents as a writer.

Mike is in many ways unfortunately a member of the Wilson family. If he were just a friend who collaborated with BW in the 60s, we might all see him as another Usher or something. Instead, he was put in the middle of family psychodrama that continues to this day. I think he's often handled himself shabbily, but no one is blameless in this history, as everyone acknowledges.

[TdHabib]

Since Carl was Brian's baby brother, he probably looked up to him until 1966 or 67, only to find Brian slowly deteriorate into an overgrown child. 

I'd say he still looked up to him until 1971. The passion he puts into the production...and more importantly the singing in Sunflower bears that out. On Friends I think he very much deferred to Brian's leadership...and the result was a classic. I think it was in 71 and more importantly by 72 when Bri's decline via cocaine use was evident it started to wane. Having said that, I do think he threw himself into Love You fully and completely...he was VERY important to that album's success (if you dislike the album say 'completion' instead of 'success').

[Sheriff John Stone]

When discussing how Carl felt about Brian, I think you have to differentiate between Brian the man and Brian the musician. I don't even wanna know what Carl thought of Brian the man, but I think he respected Brian the musician right up to the very end. There is a later interview/article in Musician magazine where Carl says something to the effect that any future Beach Boys' album would be crap without Brian producing. However, that article might've been before Landy fried Brian's brain.

[donald]

Kokomo hit big due to the movie connection and promotion  PLUS, to the casual fan who had not followed the band for years, it was like surfin usa, inviting one and all to a summer of fantasy, fun in the sun, and escape to a laundry list of cool beach scenes.  AND, it was a grown up version, for those 30 somethings who could afford exotic island fantasy vacations.  It pushed the right buttons at the right time., with the right cross section of listeners.

Hard core fans resented this simplistic redigesting of the beachboys.  But it worked just like it worked in the days of surfin usa.  And don't forget this all dovetailed nicely with the huge buffet parrothead thing happening around the same time.

Truly; sh*t happens!

[MBE]

Since Carl was Brian's baby brother, he probably looked up to him until 1966 or 67, only to find Brian slowly deteriorate into an overgrown child. 

I'd say he still looked up to him until 1971. The passion he puts into the production...and more importantly the singing in Sunflower bears that out. On Friends I think he very much deferred to Brian's leadership...and the result was a classic. I think it was in 71 and more importantly by 72 when Bri's decline via cocaine use was evident it started to wane. Having said that, I do think he threw himself into Love You fully and completely...he was VERY important to that album's success (if you dislike the album say 'completion' instead of 'success').

I think you hit the nail on the head. Brian had the final say until 1971 or so. They may have disliked certain songs, but while Depser was working for them everything else was dropped when Brian wanted to do something. Putting Surf's Up on the LP of the same name seems to be the first major act that went against Brian's wishes. Carl has said he first noticed something was really wrong as far as hard drugs went during the So Tough sessions. That was the beginning of the real decline.

Still Carl at least still tried to support Brian for a while in the studio. In 1976 Carl talked of going home in frustration during one 15 Big Ones session and then coming back and working because it was for Brian. After Landy came back a second time he made things so unpleasant that I don't think Carl was willing to defer to Brian anymore.

[Wirestone]

I think all you have to know about how Carl felt about Brian as a musician in the 90s can be summed up in two points.

1.) He quashed the Paley sessions as a BB album. They would have potentially been a great album, make no mistake.

2.) He refused to do a tour of Pet Sounds because he thought Brian couldn't sing the songs.

I think both of those are the actions of someone who just has no confidence in his brother's abilities anymore -- in the studio or out of it.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Don't forget the sessions for Keepin' The Summer Alive - at least a couple of days of them - when Carl excitedly proclaimed that Brian was "singing like a bird" and was "back, he was all right there in the room". Carl really got behind (I think) "Oh Darlin", "and "Goin' On". He also appeared pretty happy (with Brian?) in the Goin' Platinum documentary and the 20/20 segment. And, of course, it was Carl who spearheaded the second Landy intervention to save Brian.

[MBE]

I think all you have to know about how Carl felt about Brian as a musician in the 90s can be summed up in two points.

1.) He quashed the Paley sessions as a BB album. They would have potentially been a great album, make no mistake.

2.) He refused to do a tour of Pet Sounds because he thought Brian couldn't sing the songs.

I think both of those are the actions of someone who just has no confidence in his brother's abilities anymore -- in the studio or out of it.

I guess what's strange about Carl during the last ten years or so of his life is that he wasn't fully behind his brother anymore. It seems so out of character looking at some of that late 70's footage SJS brought up.

[Nicko]

I think all you have to know about how Carl felt about Brian as a musician in the 90s can be summed up in two points.

1.) He quashed the Paley sessions as a BB album. They would have potentially been a great album, make no mistake.

2.) He refused to do a tour of Pet Sounds because he thought Brian couldn't sing the songs.

I think both of those are the actions of someone who just has no confidence in his brother's abilities anymore -- in the studio or out of it.

I think Carl's decisions were understandable even if people can debate whether they were right or wrong...

The Paley Sessions had potential but Bruce has said that the sessions were underwhelming in every way which indicates that it certainly wasn't just about Carl disliking the material. We know that Brian wrote little of Soul Searchin and the fact that he had to bring Joe Thomas in a little later shows that he wasn't up to producing on his own either. GIOMH shows that he still isn't... So having to hire another producer further complicated things and the very difficult time the band members had had over the previous few years meant that understandably the band went into it willingly rather than enthusiastically.

As far as Pet Sounds goes, if Brian had rejoined The BBs on stage then would it have been well received? Debatable. An awful lot of the good responses that Brian has had from his shows have come from the fact that nobody expected to see him play live solo shows at all and that people want to commend him for being a genius with the work he did in the 60s. His band are also deservedly praised but, being honest, Brian is the least impressive performer at his shows. His voice is very limited and, despite the good will that so many have for Brian, a lot of the reviews that I read after PS Live was released commented on how his voice was very weak in places and that some of the live versions didn't come close to the originals.  Any BBs shows wouldn't have had quite the same hype and there is a possibility that the reviews would have been less kind to Brian.

[Jay]

I think all you have to know about how Carl felt about Brian as a musician in the 90s can be summed up in two points.

1.) He quashed the Paley sessions as a BB album. They would have potentially been a great album, make no mistake.

2.) He refused to do a tour of Pet Sounds because he thought Brian couldn't sing the songs.

I think both of those are the actions of someone who just has no confidence in his brother's abilities anymore -- in the studio or out of it.

I guess what's strange about Carl during the last ten years or so of his life is that he wasn't fully behind his brother anymore. It seems so out of character looking at some of that late 70's footage SJS brought up.

I think that Carl was a very troubled, tortured soul. Perhaps more than his brother's, because he was so private. I think that in the 10 or so years of his life, there were things going on in Carl's head that not even his own children and wives knew about. I am going to go one step further, and say something that will probably get me crucified. I think that Carl Wilson was afraid of losing his mental capacities. He saw what happened to Brian, and he saw it literally KILL his other brother. I think that in a way, Carl was scared to death to get to close to Brian, for fear of actually turning into Brian. Whew....what a heavy thought. Maybe this needs it's own topic.

[Nicko]

I think that Carl was a very troubled, tortured soul. Perhaps more than his brother's, because he was so private. I think that in the 10 or so years of his life, there were things going on in Carl's head that not even his own children and wives knew about. I am going to go one step further, and say something that will probably get me crucified. I think that Carl Wilson was afraid of losing his mental capacities. He saw what happened to Brian, and he saw it literally KILL his other brother. I think that in a way, Carl was scared to death to get to close to Brian, for fear of actually turning into Brian. Whew....what a heavy thought. Maybe this needs it's own topic.

Or it could just be that Brian hadn't been really competent on stage or in the studio with the BBs for several decades so it was only natural the other guys would be wary about him. Let's not forget that when the BBs worked with Status Quo and Rick Parfitt told Brian how great it was to meet him, Brian responded with a confused, 'Who are you?'. With the other band members seeing things like that and a million other similar incidents over the years, it's not surprising that they were unsure of Brian.

[The Heartical Don]

I think all you have to know about how Carl felt about Brian as a musician in the 90s can be summed up in two points.

1.) He quashed the Paley sessions as a BB album. They would have potentially been a great album, make no mistake.

2.) He refused to do a tour of Pet Sounds because he thought Brian couldn't sing the songs.

I think both of those are the actions of someone who just has no confidence in his brother's abilities anymore -- in the studio or out of it.

I guess what's strange about Carl during the last ten years or so of his life is that he wasn't fully behind his brother anymore. It seems so out of character looking at some of that late 70's footage SJS brought up.

I think that Carl was a very troubled, tortured soul. Perhaps more than his brother's, because he was so private. I think that in the 10 or so years of his life, there were things going on in Carl's head that not even his own children and wives knew about. I am going to go one step further, and say something that will probably get me crucified. I think that Carl Wilson was afraid of losing his mental capacities. He saw what happened to Brian, and he saw it literally KILL his other brother. I think that in a way, Carl was scared to death to get to close to Brian, for fear of actually turning into Brian. Whew....what a heavy thought. Maybe this needs it's own topic.

I admire this line of reasoning. Carl was smart. He might very well have known in general what sorts of mental disorders Brian had/has, and also some inkling about the heriditary aspects of these ailments. I can see Carl posing hypothetical questions to himself, that Dennis and Brian were incapable of. Like:

'why are the three of us all battling severe addictions?'
'what effects did our upbringing have on our adult lives?'
'will I develop problems similar to those of Brian?'

...and keeping this to himself, quenching their sadness and fearfulness with drugs and alcohol.

[Amy B.]

I think that Carl was a very troubled, tortured soul. Perhaps more than his brother's, because he was so private. I think that in the 10 or so years of his life, there were things going on in Carl's head that not even his own children and wives knew about. I am going to go one step further, and say something that will probably get me crucified. I think that Carl Wilson was afraid of losing his mental capacities. He saw what happened to Brian, and he saw it literally KILL his other brother. I think that in a way, Carl was scared to death to get to close to Brian, for fear of actually turning into Brian. Whew....what a heavy thought. Maybe this needs it's own topic.
[/quote]

I'm not sure I agree that Carl was afraid of losing his mental capacities. I think he understood that he was a very different person from Brian. That said, I think there's something to your statement that Carl was a troubled soul. After all, he grew up in the Wilson household too. I think Brian, Dennis, Carl, AND Mike are/were also troubled in their own way--after all, they're all equally Wilsons, and there's a history in that family. But different personalities have different responses to a dysfunctional situation. Carl seemed to have been one of those non-confrontational people who bottled things up. There's a reason so many people called him an angel. I'm believe he was indeed a very kind person, but I also think he was one of those people who didn't want any trouble, so he was less likely to state his true feelings when he was unhappy or resentful about something and therefore was seen as a selfless angel. I know a lot of people like that-- kind and good for sure, but clearly also wanting to avoid trouble by not stating their true feelings. Carl probably DID have serious problems with Brian and Dennis, even though he loved them. Who wouldn't?

[Wirestone]

I think Carl had really lost his sense of perspective in the mid-90s.

If Brian had been allowed to produce a BB album with Andy Paley (which is what he wanted to do), possibly with Don Was along, the quality of the Paley material (much of which was self-consciously retro, so certainly in line with Love's aims) would have led to an excellent, well-received disc. A world changer? Nah. But the market (and record companies) were ready for it, especially after the one-two punch of OCA and IJWMFTT bringing Brian's name back into the media.

I don't think there was ever any notion that Brian would do it "on his own" -- and maybe that was the problem. Brian would have produced any BB album with someone else. And the group wanted serious say in that process.

As for Pet Sounds live, you could have easily given Brian just a couple of featured spots. His performances of Pet Sounds on his own were revelatory -- and there's no reason to think he couldn't have done his spot on Sloop Jon B along with IJWMFTT and Caroline, No. And if it had been done after the release of the sessions box, it would have been a huge deal.

Carl at that point (and possibly it was his own health, too) just didn't want to deal Brian as boss anymore. Especially after Carl had worked his buns off for decades on the road.

And Carl's own musical judgment really lapsed. If you listen to Beckley-Lamm-Wilson, two things are clear. One, Carl could still sing exquisitely, and two, his songs were awful. Not incompetent, just heartbreakingly generic. This was not a man to be passing a sentence on the Wilson-Paley material.

[TdHabib]

I think Carl had really lost his sense of perspective in the mid-90s.

If Brian had been allowed to produce a BB album with Andy Paley (which is what he wanted to do), possibly with Don Was along, the quality of the Paley material (much of which was self-consciously retro, so certainly in line with Love's aims) would have led to an excellent, well-received disc. A world changer? Nah. But the market (and record companies) were ready for it, especially after the one-two punch of OCA and IJWMFTT bringing Brian's name back into the media.

I don't think there was ever any notion that Brian would do it "on his own" -- and maybe that was the problem. Brian would have produced any BB album with someone else. And the group wanted serious say in that process.

As for Pet Sounds live, you could have easily given Brian just a couple of featured spots. His performances of Pet Sounds on his own were revelatory -- and there's no reason to think he couldn't have done his spot on Sloop Jon B along with IJWMFTT and Caroline, No. And if it had been done after the release of the sessions box, it would have been a huge deal.

Carl at that point (and possibly it was his own health, too) just didn't want to deal Brian as boss anymore. Especially after Carl had worked his buns off for decades on the road.

And Carl's own musical judgment really lapsed. If you listen to Beckley-Lamm-Wilson, two things are clear. One, Carl could still sing exquisitely, and two, his songs were awful. Not incompetent, just heartbreakingly generic. This was not a man to be passing a sentence on the Wilson-Paley material.

I agree on every point 100%...maybe even a little more than that.

I also would like to restate a point that many have made re:Carl. He had the voice of an angel, had a great heart, loved his fans and was fully committed to the group. But he moved closer and closer to acting like Mike as time marched on (I'd say post 1985)...he let Mike have his way possibly way too many times and just let all of his previously creative notions fall by the wayside.

[Emdeeh]

A couple of things for perspective's sake: Carl never got over losing Dennis, he was still sensitive on the subject many years after Denny's passing. He was also very, very concerned about Brian. The whole business with Landy was a painful experience for Carl, and it left lingering aftereffects in the brothers' relationship once Landy was out of the picture.

[Wirestone]

I think it's fair to say that after Landy, Carl became more interested with and concerned about Brian as a person than as a creative partner. And that makes sense. He was his brother. It seems Carl thought it would be healthier to separate their personal relationship from their musical / business one. And that makes sense, too.

[Amy B.]

All this makes me think of Carl when he was sick, and how he must have felt once he knew that he didn't have much time left. In addition to his concerns about his wife, the band, etc., he must have been very concerned about Brian's future, knowing that Brian had already lost one brother and had so many emotional issues.

[KokoMoses]

Whoa, I think we should all leave such deep down insights into Carl's soul to those who actually knew the guy! And let's try and not forget that after all the hassles these guys had been through, the ups, the downs, ect. that at the end of the day a 50something year old Carl might have simply wanted to live an enjoyable life. And being locked in the studio as one of Brian's musical tools might not have been how he wanted to spend his days and nights. And yeah, after all the effort he'd put into establishing the Boys as a progressive/vibrant live act in the 70's, and stuggling with his own substance problems.... maybe he'd simply had enough.... Maybe the Beach Boys at that point were just a fun (for the most part) day job. And why the heck not? They were already a legendary band. What's there to lose? So Carl goes out and plays some show full of hits, gets paid and goes home to his family. Not a bad life for a guy who's already put more physical emotional and mental effort into being an artist for more man-hours than any of us could ever comprehend.

[Jason]

Brian had no lack of venom for Carl in the mid-90s, even going so far as calling Carl an asshole.

[KokoMoses]

I also remember him complaining that Audree used to talk about how great Carl was all the time and Brian was like "Ok, so Carl's so great, go hang out with Carl and quit talking about it"  I wish I could recall where I read that, but I remember it distincly! But that all sonds like typical family/sibling stuff.... which all this REALLY is, when we get down to it.

[donald]

Brian had no lack of venom for Carl in the mid-90s, even going so far as calling Carl an butthole.

Didn't he call VDP a butthole too?  I'm glad Brian broke out and designated the buttholes.  Good for the soul.  I always say.

[Jason]

Brian seems to attract the buttholes...he just never seemed to turn his fine-tuned sense of butthole-sniffing on himself.

Shall I bend over now or later before I get buttfucked by the Brianistas for saying that?

[The Heartical Don]

Brian had no lack of venom for Carl in the mid-90s, even going so far as calling Carl an butthole.

Didn't he call VDP a butthole too?  I'm glad Brian broke out and designated the buttholes.  Good for the soul.  I always say.

My take: Brian never meant to call anyone a butthole, much less VDP and Carl. But he did it. He used SSRI medication back then, and does so nowadays. I dare place a safe bet on him having used alcohol on the side. It's well known that SSRIs and alcohol lead to disinhibition. You tend to vent anything that crops up in your mind, and don't have much grasp of what you actually are saying, and what impact it might have on others.

BTW: I dare place another bet: SSRIs are sometimes in the spotlight for their adverse side effects. I'd think that in many cases observed, secret co-use of alcohol was the damaging factor.