Sgt. Pepper blew his mind?

[Cam Mott]

Obviously, Mike wouldn't written VDP lyrics but we wouldn't associate VDP lyrics with SMiLE either.  Mike would have done what he and all Brian's collaborators did, which is listen and try to get a sense of what Brian was after and do his best to fit in with that.

It is possible that SMiLE would have come out because they worked out lyrics which Brian didn't find to artsy and elaborate though Brian may still have felt his music wasn't right for vocals and was itself too artsy, elaborate, wrong mood, and the other objections Brian had with it.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Thing is, Sgt. Pepper is not a particularly great album. They made lots of much better records before and after that were much less self-indulgent. Its a triumph of hype over quality.

I think it's the best album ever made. Subjectivity wins out again.

Luther, I can never tell if you're being serious or not. Are you?

[Alex]

I can't believe no one's actually said this before, but even talking about SMiLE's lyrics being written by the Lovester is SACRILEGE!!! Love is the devil!!!
  :lolJust joking!

[the captain]

Luther, I can never tell if you're being serious or not. Are you?

I know, sarcasm doesn't do well online. But yeah, on any given day, I do believe Sgt. Pepper is not only the best Beatles album, but the best album ever. Other times, it's neither of the aforementioned. But for me, it never falls out of my favorite half dozen or so albums--ten at most. I've loved pretty close to everything about it for as long as I've known it. Its general critical standing rises and falls some, but not with me. I think it's wonderful.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Luther, I can never tell if you're being serious or not. Are you?

I know, sarcasm doesn't do well online. But yeah, on any given day, I do believe Sgt. Pepper is not only the best Beatles album, but the best album ever. Other times, it's neither of the aforementioned. But for me, it never falls out of my favorite half dozen or so albums--ten at most. I've loved pretty close to everything about it for as long as I've known it. Its general critical standing rises and falls some, but not with me. I think it's wonderful.

I'm surprised, Luther, but that's cool....

About Mike Love possibly writing lyrics for SMiLE....We are so far removed from the early/mid 1960's, that it's hard to realize that Mike Love's lyrics were actually "hip" for their time. The words to "Surfin' Safari", "Fun Fun Fun", "I Get Around", "California Girls", and "Good Vibrations" were "of that time".  We're four decades removed, and it was such an innocent time, but, in the Beach Boys' heyday, Mike was far removed from the parody he would become. I think Mike is too harshly judged by the "going back" lyrics on 15 Big Ones, MIU, KTSA, and SIP, that we don't give him enough credit for once being cool.

That being said, I'm not sure Mike could've handled the psychedelic vibe that was SMiLE (I know he wrote lyrics to "Good Vibrations"), but I also don't think it would've been as bad as most think. Again, if you follow Mike's progress from 1961 to 1974, his lyrics were actually quite good, almost all of them.

[the captain]

I'm surprised, Luther, but that's cool....

How the mighty have fallen that anyone would be surprised at anyone thinking highly of Sgt. Pepper.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I'm surprised, Luther, but that's cool....

How the mighty have fallen that anyone would be surprised at anyone thinking highly of Sgt. Pepper.

No, no, no.... Not surprised that you would think highly of Sgt. Pepper, but that you would consider it to be, on any given day, not only the Beatles best album, but THE BEST ALBUM EVER!

I always thought of you as being more "purist", and not so much a fan of "bells and whistles". But, I know you're a big fan of Freddie Mercury and Queen, so....

[the captain]

I love what strikes me as real pop: great melodies, good arrangements, songs to which I want to sing along. There is no band like the Beatles for that, and maybe no album like Pepper. (I know some people consider the songs weak on Pepper, but not me. I love them all.)

[TdHabib]

Luther, I can never tell if you're being serious or not. Are you?

I know, sarcasm doesn't do well online. But yeah, on any given day, I do believe Sgt. Pepper is not only the best Beatles album, but the best album ever. Other times, it's neither of the aforementioned. But for me, it never falls out of my favorite half dozen or so albums--ten at most. I've loved pretty close to everything about it for as long as I've known it. Its general critical standing rises and falls some, but not with me. I think it's wonderful.

We have to mark this happening somehow--sound the alarms--
I completely agree with Luther. (No sarcasm)

[lance]

I poop on SGT Pepper.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I wonder what SMiLE would have sounded like written by Mike. Actually, Mike was influenced by what Brian wrote. Mike wrote hip lyrics because Brian was writing hip music. They were collaborators. Mike likewise wrote more profound lyrics when Brian wrote, well, more profound music. "The Warmth of the Sun" is the most obvious example, but don't forget "She Knows Me Too Well", which to me is criminally underrated... it's in my top 5 BB songs, easily. Mike didn't become a joke until 15 Big Ones; he really was an important artistic force in the band until then.

[mikeyj]

About Mike Love possibly writing lyrics for SMiLE....We are so far removed from the early/mid 1960's, that it's hard to realize that Mike Love's lyrics were actually "hip" for their time. The words to "Surfin' Safari", "Fun Fun Fun", "I Get Around", "California Girls", and "Good Vibrations" were "of that time".  We're four decades removed, and it was such an innocent time, but, in the Beach Boys' heyday, Mike was far removed from the parody he would become. I think Mike is too harshly judged by the "going back" lyrics on 15 Big Ones, MIU, KTSA, and SIP, that we don't give him enough credit for once being cool.

That is a really good post Sheriff... couldn't agree more... some people like to criticize Mike for his early lyrics (even though they somehow seem to miss songs like Warmth of the Sun) even though in a lot of cases, that is what draws people to the band initially (not in my case, but I'm guessing for a lot of people) and as you say those lyrics were of the time... And as I have said before (and others too) most of Mike's lyrics fit with the overall feel of the music... I honestly can't imagine a "God Only Knows" type lyric over the top of a song like I Get Around or something... Mike just followed Brian's musical direction. And people also seem to forget that sometimes that Mike DID write the lyrics to "Good Vibrations" and most of their hits...

[mikeyj]

I wonder what SMiLE would have sounded like written by Mike. Actually, Mike was influenced by what Brian wrote. Mike wrote hip lyrics because Brian was writing hip music. They were collaborators. Mike likewise wrote more profound lyrics when Brian wrote, well, more profound music. "The Warmth of the Sun" is the most obvious example, but don't forget "She Knows Me Too Well", which to me is criminally underrated... it's in my top 5 BB songs, easily. Mike didn't become a joke until 15 Big Ones; he really was an important artistic force in the band until then.

Ah sorry Billy, didn't see your post, but you make some of the same points as me... but yeah I agree with every word you say here... also I too love She Knows Me Too Well... GREAT song!! And also in my top 5 most of the time.

[mikeyj]

I love what strikes me as real pop: great melodies, good arrangements, songs to which I want to sing along. There is no band like the Beatles for that, and maybe no album like Pepper. (I know some people consider the songs weak on Pepper, but not me. I love them all.)

Luther I'm just curious (and I'm being honest here) on how you would rate each individual song out of 5? As I have stated numerous times, I'm not a big fan of Pepper except for a few of the songs so it'd just be interesting to hear your opinion on each individual track... I just talk to a lot of people who seem to think Pepper as being the greatest just cause either A) it's a production masterpiece and it was the first album to use the studio as an instrument (yes I have read that before) or B) they see it as the whole being greater than the sum of its parts....

Obviously you don't have to rate the songs if you don't want to, but I just think it'd be interesting.

[LostArt]

I’ve enjoyed reading this thread very much.  I am now, for the first time really, considering what a SMiLE would’ve been like with some (not all) Love lyrics.  I think using Van Dyke was a great idea, and I like his lyrics to Heroes and Villains, and Wonderful, and Cabinessence, and Surf’s Up a lot.  I wouldn’t change a word of those songs.  But I think one of the reasons that the Beatles remained so popular during the psychedelic era was that they had Lennon doing the abstract SFF type lyrics, and they had Paul writing more mainstream lyrics for the masses.  It was the best of both worlds.  What if Mike had been asked to write lyrics for some of the other songs on SMiLE.  I can imagine Wind Chimes with Mike lyrics.  Maybe the song is no longer about Wind Chimes (maybe Sunshine or something), but I think that one has a very commercial melody.  Maybe that’s all Mike was looking for…something hip, but commercial and accessible, like Good Vibrations.  And with some more support from Mike (and others), maybe Brian would’ve had an easier time completing the album.           

[carl r]

I don't know. I thought Smile was intended to be cohesive. Brian wanted avant-garde music and that was what he created - the chord changes and overall sound were meant to be disconcerting.  He was helped with the music as well as the words, to a certain extent. That's my take, at any rate.

[the captain]

Luther I'm just curious (and I'm being honest here) on how you would rate each individual song out of 5? As I have stated numerous times, I'm not a big fan of Pepper except for a few of the songs so it'd just be interesting to hear your opinion on each individual track... I just talk to a lot of people who seem to think Pepper as being the greatest just cause either A) it's a production masterpiece and it was the first album to use the studio as an instrument (yes I have read that before) or B) they see it as the whole being greater than the sum of its parts....

Obviously you don't have to rate the songs if you don't want to, but I just think it'd be interesting.

I'll start a thread in the non-BBs music forum for it.

[buddhahat]

But I think one of the reasons that the Beatles remained so popular during the psychedelic era was that they had Lennon doing the abstract SFF type lyrics, and they had Paul writing more mainstream lyrics for the masses.  It was the best of both worlds.       

And I think this is what was so fantastic about the Beatles, that you had two brilliant writers that so perfectly complimented each other, and covered both the arty and popular bases. They also looked great - the perfect band in so many ways. The Beach Boys didn't have nearly the same unity, and so would never have been able to produce as popular a record as Sergeant Pepper. But I think Brian had the edge in producing emotive music. I think he was able to create music that was more emotionally expressive than the beatles. I think Pet Sounds is a greater piece of art than anything the Beatles ever did. I just wish BW had managed to get it together to make his definitive psychedelic statement. I don't think it would have been as in tune with the 'now' as Sergeant Pepper was, or as together a record, but anything that contained Cabinessence, Heroes & Villains, Surf's Up, Worms, Wonderful, Child is father of The Man & Good Vibrations, would have been an immensely fulfilling and stimulating album and its lasting critical acclaim could quite likely have endured much better than Pepper has.

[grillo]

But I think one of the reasons that the Beatles remained so popular during the psychedelic era was that they had Lennon doing the abstract SFF type lyrics, and they had Paul writing more mainstream lyrics for the masses.  It was the best of both worlds.       

And I think this is what was so fantastic about the Beatles, that you had two brilliant writers that so perfectly complimented each other, and covered both the arty and popular bases. They also looked great - the perfect band in so many ways. The Beach Boys didn't have nearly the same unity, and so would never have been able to produce as popular a record as Sergeant Pepper. But I think Brian had the edge in producing emotive music. I think he was able to create music that was more emotionally expressive than the beatles. I think Pet Sounds is a greater piece of art than anything the Beatles ever did. I just wish BW had managed to get it together to make his definitive psychedelic statement. I don't think it would have been as in tune with the 'now' as Sergeant Pepper was, or as together a record, but anything that contained Cabinessence, Heroes & Villains, Surf's Up, Worms, Wonderful, Child is father of The Man & Good Vibrations, would have been an immensely fulfilling and stimulating album and its lasting critical acclaim could quite likely have endured much better than Pepper has.

Seems like the argument is; it's better to be right in the middle of the road rather than carving an entirely new path. I agree with Lance and poop on the Pepper!

[Ganz Allein]

I don't think that SMiLE would have been SMiLE with Mike's lyrics.  Mike has a talent for writing words that express straightforward, simple, everyday things, sometimes with a clever twist of phrase.  But obviously his words were too corny or straightforward for Brian at the time and weren't turning him on or in tune with the music he was creating - otherwise, Brian wouldn't have sought out another lyricist in the first place.

As for GV, I personally like some of Tony Asher's lyrics better than Mike's.  The stuff about "it's weird how she comes in so strong" and "I wonder what she's picking up from me" capture the whole vibrationessence thing better for me, and I'm glad Brian used them on BWPS.  I just wish that he'd gotten Tony or Van Dyke to give him a new opening line.  "I love the colorful clothes she wears" doesn't go smoothly into "and she's already working on my brain."

Anyway, I don't think that even letting Mike do some of the lyrics on SMiLE would've helped Brian.  Mike probably still would've hated that the music wasn't following the formula, and 1967-2003 would thus still have been the era of "Brian Wilson Prevents SMiLE."

[Alex]

Pepper is an OK record, but not really as mind-blowing as its been purported to be in the press over the past 40 years or so. It has some good songs, but with the exceptions of For the Benefit of Mr. Kite, A Day In The Life, and maybe Lucy In The Sky, it doesn't really stand up to SMiLE or even some parts of Pet Sounds. Pepper can be an enjoyable listen, but it never grabbed me emotionally the way Pet Sounds did. Really, its the harmonies, and just the sincerity in the boys' voices that often times make me want to listen to the BBs rather than the Beatles. I still enjoy listening to Beatles' music, but it's mostly the pre-Pepper stuff plus about 3/4 of the White Album that I enjoy the most. There are psychedelic albums I'd rather listen to than Pepper. Their Satanic Majesties Request, The Piper at the Gates of Dawn, both SMiLE and Smiley Smile, and to a certain extent, Odessey and Oracle engage me more than most of the songs on Sgt. Pepper.


EDIT: To answer people talking about Mike Love writing lyrics for SMiLE, I've said it once, and I'll say it again... PHOOEY!! Do we really want to hear a SMiLE tune with lyrics a la Amusement Parks USA or Salt Lake City? Those are nice songs, but SMiLE is on a whole 'nother level. Van Dyke's lyrics are part of the charm of SMiLE. VDP's involvement is one of the reasons I love SMiLE! If we're going to talk about SMiLE with different lyricists, what if Gary Usher, Roger Christian, Bob Norberg, Steve Kalinich, Jack Reiley, or Geoffrey Cushing-Murray wrote the lyrics to SMiLE?

[Dove Nested Towers]

Pepper is an OK record, but not really as mind-blowing as its been purported to be in the press over the past 40 years or so. It has some good songs, but with the exceptions of For the Benefit of Mr. Kite, A Day In The Life, and maybe Lucy In The Sky, it doesn't really stand up to SMiLE or even some parts of Pet Sounds. Pepper can be an enjoyable listen, but it never grabbed me emotionally the way Pet Sounds did. Really, its the harmonies, and just the sincerity in the boys' voices that often times make me want to listen to the BBs rather than the Beatles. I still enjoy listening to Beatles' music, but it's mostly the pre-Pepper stuff plus about 3/4 of the White Album that I enjoy the most. There are psychedelic albums I'd rather listen to than Pepper. Their Satanic Majesties Request, The Piper at the Gates of Dawn, both SMiLE and Smiley Smile, and to a certain extent, Odessey and Oracle engage me more than most of the songs on Sgt. Pepper.


EDIT: To answer people talking about Mike Love writing lyrics for SMiLE, I've said it once, and I'll say it again... PHOOEY!! Do we really want to hear a SMiLE tune with lyrics a la Amusement Parks USA or Salt Lake City? Those are nice songs, but SMiLE is on a whole 'nother level. Van Dyke's lyrics are part of the charm of SMiLE. VDP's involvement is one of the reasons I love SMiLE! If we're going to talk about SMiLE with different lyricists, what if Gary Usher, Roger Christian, Bob Norberg, Steve Kalinich, Jack Reiley, or Geoffrey Cushing-Murray wrote the lyrics to SMiLE?

Van Dyke Parks and Brian Wilson combined (and combine) to form a brilliant, symbiotic, ephemeral,
organic entity that is not duplicable by any other combination. Each songwriting partnership that Brian has been involved with has had its own merits and could be taken on its own terms (except perhaps
Wilson/Landy) but Smile was a brilliant creation which only could have sprung exclusively from those
two minds.

Sgt. Pepper could be said to have a couple of songs that could almost qualify as "filler". Lovely Rita
and When I'm 64 come to mind (I can hear it now: "BLASPHEMY!") George Martin himself was quoted
as saying that one of the greatest regrets of his whole Beatles producer tenure was deciding not to
put Strawberry Fields and Penny Lane, which as you all know were recorded earlier but released later,
on Sgt. Pepper. That would have made for a serious mind-blower!

I don't think there would have been anything on a 1966-1967 completed and released "Smile" that wouldn't have been lean, essential and absolutely integral to the conceptual integrity of the album as
a whole.

[mikeyj]

To answer people talking about Mike Love writing lyrics for SMiLE, I've said it once, and I'll say it again... PHOOEY!! Do we really want to hear a SMiLE tune with lyrics a la Amusement Parks USA or Salt Lake City? Those are nice songs, but SMiLE is on a whole 'nother level. Van Dyke's lyrics are part of the charm of SMiLE. VDP's involvement is one of the reasons I love SMiLE! If we're going to talk about SMiLE with different lyricists, what if Gary Usher, Roger Christian, Bob Norberg, Steve Kalinich, Jack Reiley, or Geoffrey Cushing-Murray wrote the lyrics to SMiLE?

It's always easier to use your own examples isn't it? Salt Lake City and Amusement Parks USA? Come on, Mike wrote plenty of lyrics better than that and you know it... whether or not he could have written lyrics for SMiLE is debatable but Mike was more capable than some people give him credit for... I have said this before, but I reckon Mike could have done a good job with Pet Sounds but I'm not so sure about SMiLE.

[smile-holland]

"Brian Wilson Prevents SMiLE."

good word-joke 

[buddhahat]

Sgt. Pepper could be said to have a couple of songs that could almost qualify as "filler". Lovely Rita
and When I'm 64 come to mind (I can hear it now: "BLASPHEMY!") George Martin himself was quoted
as saying that one of the greatest regrets of his whole Beatles producer tenure was deciding not to
put Strawberry Fields and Penny Lane, which as you all know were recorded earlier but released later,
on Sgt. Pepper. That would have made for a serious mind-blower!

Agreed! I think the inclusion of those songs would have made Pepper far less vulnerable, almost dare I say, immune to criticism. How could you fault an album including Strawberry Fields, Penny Lane, With a Little Help from my Friends, She's Leaving Home and A Day in The Life? Hell, they could have put Maxwell's Silver Hammer on there and it'd still have been the greatest album ever made!!

The question is, what would you swap SFF and PL for?! personally I'd swap SFF for Lucy In The Sky, and Penny Lane for When I'm 64, and I don't think the overall sequencing and character of the album would be altered that much.

I don't think there would have been anything on a 1966-1967 completed and released "Smile" that wouldn't have been lean, essential and absolutely integral to the conceptual integrity of the album as
a whole.

I'm not so sure. I don't think Vegatables is anything special (although we have no idea what form the song would have taken on a 67 release) and we don't know how songs such as I'm in Great Shape, The Elements and Old Master Painter would have ended up, but they could well have turned out to be arguable 'filler', or beautiful yet slightly unfocused experiments in Brian's modular composition technique, or perfect mini-suites that complemented the grander songs - Who knows? I guess it's impossible to say, but I do suspect that Brian and VDP would have struggled to unify all the concepts of Smile into a focused album. It's more likely that it would have been a spawling, albeit achingly beautiful, mess imo.