The Smiley Smile Message Board

alright, i was reading in BW's WIBN My Own Story (I do know the story of how Redwood got together) and Brian was saying he was teaching those guys 4 songs (including Time to Get alone & Darlin), so the question is....what are the other two? I know that in the SS/WH two-fer booklet, it mentions A Thing Or Two being apart of the Redwood sessions if I'm not mistaken. Maybe Here Comes the night as well? that's just a stab in the dark...also, on the following page in that book...it tells a story of working with the Philharmonic and Brian asking Marilyn to get Binaka for all the string players...was this Time to Get Alone sessions?
If you know of any other details of dates/places recorded and good stories, tell me!  ;D

The other song you're after is one that never came out, I think.  I can't remember the exact title at the moment, but I'm pretty sure it has "Maiden" in it.

Sunflower Maiden?

Were any of these songs ever recorded/released?

Yes.

Yeah.

YAH!

A BDW/VDP collaboration. Never recorded as far as I know. Someone once told me - waaaay before the 2fers came out, 1983 or so -  that "A Thing Or Two" was originally intended for Redwood.

really? awesome.

I'd bet you dollars to donuts several of the songs on Wild Honey were originally earmarked for Redwood, at least in Brian's mind, accounting for the change of style.

I asked Van Dyke about "Sunflower Maiden," and he said he'd ask Danny Hutton next time he saw him, but he never got back to me about it. Maybe I'll nag him and see.

Isn't it strange how the songs intended for Redwood are back-to-basic (Darlin' & assuming other Wild Honey material), but Time to Get Alone, the major song recorded and later released is more of a big production and in some ways, Smile like?

I highly doubt Brian was forced out crying by big bullies Mike and Al. The Wild Honey sessions were quite joyus.

Al? He's less than 5-5, he's probably never bullied a person in his life lol ;D

Maybe D. Marks  ;)

i thought i read where it was Mike and Carl...or maybe I'm confusing that with later (a lot later) years.

I, for one, believe Brian was bullied and forced out crying.  Why would the member of 3 Dog Night make that story up?  He told it years after it happened, and he had no axe to grind, seeing as the group made it big on their own.  In fact, they probably had a much better career on their own than they would have had with Brian's help.

Love and merci,   Dan Lega

The only source for this is is a recent autobiography (Wells or Negron, I forget which), and I find it odd that in the intervening 40-odd years, the usually loquacious Danny Hutton never said a single word about any such incident.

I don't think that's the kind of story that I would tell about my friend to reporters, though, so I can understand Danny not mentioning it.

It was Chuck Negron.

It's bull.

Redwood wanted to record an album but Brian only signed them for singles.

Negron supposed knew what all was said while admitting he couldn't hear what was said.

Brian "borrowed" a BBs' track and let Redwood record vocals for it.

In the Brian Wilson: Songwriter DVD, Hutton says that Mike was pissed when he found out that Redwood were recording Darlin' (and that he understood him being upset).  Danny suggests that the lyrics were written for him, as he was always calling people "Darlin'."  But didn't Mike write the lyrics?

I think Brian was attracted to Redwood because Lake Arrowhead is redwood country. Just guessin'.

what if Brian had used Redwood to finish SMiLE

I think that Brian's envisioning of the album as a Beach Boys album from the start (one that would fool Mike & Murry & all else who thought along square lines) and his sticking to that perfect vision prevent such questions from even being considered.

This can go either way right now, it dies here, or we go through 15 pages of arguing over whether or not Redwood had the capacity to finish SMiLE...annnnd go!

Ahhhh.... the blending of those three dog voices, the good the bad and the ugly, would shirley have been able to handle all the nuances of Smile!

He had the chance, he didn't. Next.

What if he asks Andrew G. Doe to help him finish the vocals now? ;D

Yes, Mike is credited, so I guess he wrote the lyrics.
The other story sounds like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlecMWk_lUU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlecMWk_lUU)

As the spoken parts were read by Brian, the question is, who wrote those words and how accurate are they? Maybe they just needed a way to introduce the song and have it sung by TDN. Brian doesn't mention Danny Hutton when he talks about "Darlin'" on the Roxy-album interview (of course that doesn't mean very much).
I also wonder why Brian re-used "Thinking about you baby" for "Darlin" and then went back to the original with American Spring. Not that there's anything wrong with it, I love all three versions, but it seems kinda odd. How came he up with that idea?




Wikipedia has Negron's quote:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_to_Get_Alone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_to_Get_Alone)

"It all came to a head...when Mike Love, Carl Wilson and Al Jardine came to the studio and heard our version of 'Time To Get Alone'...They manoeuvred Brian into the control booth and reduced him to tears. It was a cruel and pathetic scene. Danny, Cory and I were in the studio and could see it all happening through the control-booth window. It was as if Brian had turned into a little boy. The conversation appeared quiet and calm, but we could tell it was emotional and intense. The others were doing most of the talking, like overbearing, controlling parents. Brian would move away, and they would block his escape. We couldn't hear what was being said, but I think a good lip-reader would have picked up something like, 'We don't give a sh*t about these guys, and we want those songs for us.' We could actually feel Brian crumbling, and when he came out of the booth, a tear dropped down his cheek. His head was lowered and his shoulders sagged. It was the body language of a child who had just been scolded and punished. And this brilliant musical icon - whose songs defined one generation and influenced another - weepingly told us, 'We can't do this. I have to give the songs to them. They're family and I have to take care of my family. They want the songs. I'll give you any amount of money you want to finish an album, but I can't produce it. They won't let me.'"

I'd consider it.

I remember reading that story in the Domenic Priore Smile book (not LLVS) - if that account of events is true (and it doesn't seem implausible) then that's very sad...

In the others defense, they'd just had the first big flop album of their career. Timing wise, Brian giving the (by far) 2 best songs he had lying around to another group was not the smartest thing he could do.

WOW! I was unaware that Redwood was discussed on that doc!
Though I haven't seen it yet, this excites me even more to get it.

Didn't he explain this is in that weird long interview with Diane Brian did to promote the spring album?  I seem to recall that it was Diane's idea, who must have remembered the song from the first time, and that Brian just went along with it?  Someone correct me if I'm wrong. 

Wikipedia leaves out the part where Negron says he doesn't blame the other Beach Boys for wanting those songs for themselves and would have done the same thing if he were them...... Also, if Mike did indeed write the lyrics for Darlin, then he indeed had every right to want his own group to record the song. I'd like to know how this song came about exactly. So, Brian wants to write a song about Danny Hutton called Darlin so he grabs Mike who writes some words???

The purpose of setting up Brother Records was to discover, promote, and be successful with other artists which would then put more capital back into the parent company...at least that was the initial thought, much like Apple Records and The Beatles. It was as much an outlet for the band members to work outside the label "Beach Boys" and make their own mark. Mike Love tried it and failed too. Brian just happened to have a pocketful of killer, catchy "new" songs which he thought would work for another group, and Brother was set up for him to do just that.

I think it was smart of him if he was going with the intent of Brother Records as an outlet for this kind of thing. If the Beach Boys got jealous, that's their problem, IMO, not Brian for actually finding a band and having good songs to record with that band. What did Al or Carl bring to Brother at that same time? That's my point.

Brian was doing outside production and writing songs for other artists since the Beach Boys first got big. Find the post about the land deal Nick Grillo tried to work for them at this same time - the "Boys" were not lacking for money at this time at all. The issue of family loyalty is huge in this particular story, and Brian caught the most hell for it.

Perhaps Brian wrote all the lyrics to "Darlin'" himself and gave Mike credit since they had written "Thinkin' About My Baby" together. Or, Brian came up with the new chorus and Mike wrote the new verses. This could have been just another collaboration between them and Mike was unaware (or didn't initially care) that the track would go to Redwood.

That's a good possibility. I'd venture to guess that Brian had the title and concept and Mike wrote the lyrics with Brian having input on the chorus. Just my best guess.

And yeah, I'd assume Mike thought he was writing another song for The Beach Boys with Brian. I doubt Brian said "Hey come here, Mike! I got this great melody and want to turn it into a killer song and give it to these Redwood guys! Wanna help me with it"?

I don't know, depends. Hadn't Mike and Bruce written a song for another group like a year or two before?

Also remember, in his book he also claimed that his manhood split open like a hot dog due to using it so much. Believe what you will.

It's just possible that he had his manhood figured bass-ackwards

Considering that Brian had just written the stunningly gorgeous lyrics to time to get alone without the help of Mr. Love, I wouldn't put it past him to have written the Darling lyrics by himself. 

Sure, but why would he then go and credit the lyrics to Mr. Love? Especially considering he had no problem pulling the opposite on Mike here and there for whatever reasons.

Because its based on Thinking About You Baby which was co-written with Mike Love. Perhaps.

That's what I was thinking.  Also, just to clarify, I am not trying to denigrate Mike, I think he's a fantastic lyricist and fully deserves probably more credit than he's gotten for his lyrical and musical contributions to the band.  It just seems odd in this particular case that Brian would offer an outside group not just one of his best songs, but a song recently co-written with someone else in the Beach Boys - an idea lent some credence perhaps by the fact that he wrote time to get alone by himself, and apparently called on Van Dyke Parks for another potential Red Wood song.

For all we know, Brian rewrote the song with Mike, but the chorus used the word "baby" instead of "darling" (considering that the original title was "Thinkin' 'Bout You Baby") . Then, when Brian was thinking of songs to record with Redwood, he thought of that song, and thinking of Hutton, decided that "darling" was better for the chorus than baby. Either way, it's still a Brian & Mike cowrite.

I mean, if we want to make some meaningless conjectures on events we have no firsthand knowledge of.

Maybe for the same reasons that he credited Van Dyke on She's Goin' Bald.  That is, if you believe that Van Dyke wrote the He Gives Speeches lyrics.  Which he says he didn't. 

Just thinkin' 'bout it......baby. 

Again I want to point out how well The Beach Boys were working together in the fall of 1967. Brian and Mike co-wrote nearly a whole album worth of songs, surely it's possible that Darlin' was one of them? They sound like Mike lyrics to me, Time To Get Alone being a little more airy.

Shhhhhh!!!! Say something like that too loud, this board will vanish in a puff of smoke!  :p

But I think you're theory is probably close to the truth. Brian and Mike probably wrote most of the Wild Honey stuff together pretty quickly. Darlin' being a handy item to dust off. Perhaps Brian might have brought up writing a song for Danny called Darlin and either he or Mike remembered "Thinkin Bout You Baby" and realized how easily the word baby could be swapped with "Darlin"!

I was just listening to the Wild Honey SOT-CD. Something I haven't thought of before: were the guys themselves playing on the track for Darlin' ? That of course would make another very good point for them for wanting the song for the Beach Boys. Why shouldn't they be cutting other people's records even if they were on their label ? C-Man, do you know which musicians played on Darlin ' ?

Focusing in on the drums: Does that sound like a part Dennis would play?

Sure sound like him to me. Actually, it's so basic, it could even be Carl or Brian. Seriously. And I'm astonished how simple the basic track is - drums/piano/bass.

Really? I guess it's all in how we hear it: The basic verse beats are one thing, but the fills sound more on top of the beat and driving than anything I'd imagine Dennis playing in 1967. I could be WAAAAY off but it sounds more like a Jim Gordon track to me, again those fills are what makes it different from the other Wild Honey tracks. I hope we find out who it was!

Plus, wasn't the backing of Darlin recorded by Brian independent of The Beach Boys? I thought the Boys just added vocals to the tracks Brian already laid down, maybe I'm confusing Darlin with another Redwood track, though.

EDIT: Wasn't there a bass player named Ron who played on parts of Wild Honey, according to Bruce some years ago? If they hired a bassist to play those simple lines, and hired Paul Tanner to play two notes on his Tannerin on the title track when any band member could have done it on Mike's Moog, the possibility of Brian getting someone like Gordon or Blaine for some drum tracks wouldn't be out of the question.

Absolutely no, but what about the other stuff? If Carl, Al and Brian (maybe even Bruce) played the other instruments plus Mike co-writing it I also would've thought that it was done for the Beach Boys.

Might be TTGA, actually - The Redwood version sounds essentially identical, but the band have insisted they re-recorded it for themselves. Where I read that, I can't remember....

I've always thought it wasn't Denny - I'm sure I read it one of the many books - possible Badman but I maybe wrong. Again, in said unknown book I was under the impression Brian was unhappy with trumpet sound on Darlin' as it was slightly out of tune with the piano? Does anyone else know anything about this or did I just dream it up...

Didn't Desper say the Beach Boys re-recorded the Darlin backing track themselves but using the same basic arrangement? Or am I thinking of Time To Get Alone?

We might be talking about the same thing....

Zander, Brian tended to complain about the piano a lot. There's a bit on the SOT 19 where he curses at it for a good while during a CWTL session. Thing is, he tuned it that way especially, to sound like an old family piano of the Wilsons!

i kinda prefer the speed of "thinkin bout you baby" to darlin. 

The bass on Darlin' sounds like it's played with a pick.

Not James Jamerson, then.  :lol

I remember almost 8 years ago or so on a message board having a similar discussion about this topic: Is there any documentation showing who was on these sessions, or was anything confirmed in the years since about claims like Bruce's of a hired session bass player named "Ron" on parts of Wild Honey?

So we know they brought in Paul Tanner for the title track, there's this bassist "Ron" on the tracks, Bruce played on some tracks...I still think those fills sound like Jim Gordon on Darlin. Or someone of his caliber as a session drummer. And "I Was Made To Love Her" - I cannot recall, but wasn't that Carol Kaye? I'm thinking it was, but whoever it was it is a bassline more complex than I could see anyone in the core BB's band playing that solid in 1967. That's not a critique, but that kind of bassline was out of their usual style.

The AFM sheet for the session for "Here Comes the Night" and "Cool, Cool Water" lists the following:

Dianne Rovell
Bill Halvorsen
Alan
Bruce
Jim Lockert
Brian
Carl
Dennis
Mike

... and yes, CK played on "IWMTLH".

Ok... you are thinking of Ron Brown... I have to do some reading but came across something here from this board which mentions the bass tracks for Wild Honey recorded on their own track... speculation is overdubs... an AFM sheet for overdubs hasn't turned up or has it by now? Interestingly, James Jamerson was recorded this same way... he had his own track so nothing else got in the way. Apparently Ron Brown recorded a bass track for Time to Get Alone so it is possible he could be playing the bass on Darlin' as well... and another thing... James Jamerson used his index finger and his attack was pick-like... the index finger has less meat on the tip than the second finger... you get a punchier or sharper attack... add callouses and the strength developed and maybe some fingernail you get that sound. It's been a long time since I read how Jamerson set his bass up, but I remember the use of flat wound strings and he turned his tone control all the way down and the volume all the way up. I emulated it myself at one time.
I think you are right about session players playing, regardless... the use of the tom as an accent in those fills and the bass uses the octave punch and pushes the beat at times which makes the line funky.

Also came across this from a steve hoffman archive:
Steve Hoffman 03-30-2004, 01:13 PM
DARLIN' (like several other songs on Wild Honey) is just a "snippet" spliced up to full length. Listen carefully and you can hear the edits where they start it over about halfway through. Listen to the final fade out. It starts going into the verse again. http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/archive/index.php/t-31329.html

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php?action=printpage;topic=3437.0  discussion on Wild Honey

I think it's Bruce playing bass on Darlin'...

Andrew, you asked him and he said he played bass on the "A Thing or Two" and those were tracked at the same session.
He uses the octave in this song too, although there is a different bass thing happening tonally though the verses.

Anyone notice what happens to the bass in Time To Get Alone? during the "valley so deep and wide" section... it changes... the attack and tone change. I found the Hawthorne and Redwood versions on youtube. So comparing all three from 20/20, Hawthorne, and Redwood... the bass changes in all three at the same spot. The Redwood version sounds like a couple bass edits in there... but then everything flies away and the fade back in is the same sound as the beginning. In both Beach Boys versions the bass keeps going and you can hear the difference all the way through to the end.

Gene Pello (Drums) was at the session for Time To Get Alone on Oct 15th according to Badman.. is that correct info, Andrew?

If there's AFM confirmation, yes. If not, then no. I think I know where Badman got a lot of his non-AFM musician info, and it's questionable. Craig would know more on this, but currently he's, ah, doing something else.  :)

I believe it's the same on "Here comes the night" and maybe some others

James Jamerson migrated to the Fender P-Bass after playing acoustic upright, so his technique was developed and his fingers were hardened already, and that was a big part of his attack. Carol Kaye migrated to the P-Bass after playing guitar, so her use of a pick to play those basslines was the major part of her attack. It's neat to trace the origins of these sounds: It didn't happen in a vacuum!  :) Add Paul McCartney and Joe Osborn (both pick-style players) along with Ray Pohlman and maybe a few others and those 60's bass sounds are still among the best and most influential (to me at least!)

I gave Wild Honey a listen yesterday. The most polished and advanced-sounding track on the album is Darlin, and it sounds tighter and more driving than what surrounds it. It's as if Darlin came from another place, and actually it did in some ways. Those drums on Darlin are superior to every drum track on the album, which leads me to believe it was a drummer on the level of Jim Gordon or Hal. The "glue" holding it all together, on nearly every track, is Brian's detuned piano. His sense of drive and rhythm on that piano throughout most of Wild Honey's tracks is an overlooked element: The guy was awesome on piano and this album needed his piano to hold the rhythms together. The most advanced track for bass if I Was Made To Love Her - again, none of the core Beach Boys band could have played a bassline like that and even the other instruments apart from Brian's piano seem to be playing catch-up to Carol's bass. It's not as tight as a Motown session, or Wrecking Crew session might be, but her and Brian hold it together.

Every time I hear the album I remember how much I love hearing Brian grooving away at that detuned piano.

Indeed, Brian had/has a fantastic feel for rhythm.

Where was that piano located? I am thinking he recorded the piano part at his home studio and then had the bass and drums tracked at Wally Heider's... (if the Badman info is correct it does say tracked at Heider's)... did Brian move that piano around or did it stay put in his studio? That might explain why the songs are in snippets. I think the original idea for a home studio was for the muse at 3am... he could just go in and record ideas... you get sections of this and that... but that Darlin tune... yeah, that song does cook along... Brian was making a hit record and think about how that song would sound with the Three Dog Night vocal style. Number 1 hit?

I posted a vid from youtube I found of a show in december '67... listen to Dennis and Bruce on Barbara Ann... they are cookin'.
I am starting to think it is Dennis and Bruce playing on Darlin'. And there is a guy in the background playing bass on God Only Knows... Ron Brown?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgIscI9NL_Y

It's just those fills going into the breaks on Darlin that are so wildly different than the rest of Wild Honey. The rest of the drum track is just as basic as the remainer of the album. With the tambourine whacking away the whole time, it's almost impossible to tell if time is being kept with a hi-hat. I suspect a hi-hat is there, but it's too hard to really tell. Either way, there's nothing so advanced going on drum-wise that Dennis wasn't capable of handling at that time.... Think about all the killer drum tracks that we were all previously sure just HAD to have been Hal Blaine but ended up being Dennis.

Listened some more... 8th note hi-hat under the tambourine. It's those tom/snare combos. I don't hear any guitar on the track. I watched the Beach Boys 25th anniversary with Three Dog Night... this is just the clip I found of that song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlecMWk_lUU&NR=1

Bitchin' vid!
After all the searches I've done on youtube I never turned that one up.
Theramin and everything! Wish I could see more of the other players.

Well, Dennis could certainly handle those fills as well as a straightforward 8th note hi-hat pattern...

However, I'm inclined to guess it's not him, if only because Darlin hasn't turned up on any of Stebbins' lists of songs Dennis drummed on.

I had the chance recently, to ask Chuck Negron if there were any more Redwood
tracks besides Time To Get Alone from the sessions with Brian Wilson.. Chuck said
no there were not, there were supposed to be, but they didin't get a chance to lay
their vocals down, he told me.

I suppose his memory could possibly be faulty, or he didin't want me to know
the answer, but I don't think so. Are people saying there are more tracks with
vocals from Redwood?

It would be easier if the session data was written down somewhere when the session took place. The Redwood "Time to Get Alone" sounds unfinished, hence the fade in for the ending. But I think Darlin' was definitely an idea for making a hit record with a newly signed band on the label. If they recorded vocals and they were erased, it was the right choice to have Carl sing on it because he sounds great. But, maybe they never recorded their voices in the first place. It's one of my favorite tunes... 

Well as I said, I asked Chuck Negron this very question, perhaps six weeks ago. "Were there any more songs recorded with vocals
from those Time To Get Alone sessions as Redwood.  He said, there were supposed to be, but they never got a chance to sing anything
else. Chuck would know I presume. I guess it's possible he is wrong, or misunderstood me. I highly doubt that however.

Ok... it sounded like you might still have had some doubt... but it sounds like they never actually laid any voices down... I am guessing no scratch vocals, either, or they might have turned up... I am really curious about who played on the tracks, though.

There was apparently a BW/VDP composition with some 'Sunshine'ish name also touted for Redwood. Or am I losing my mind?

What I find interesting is that Brian produced a Redwood version of "Time" than he rewrote some of the words and recorded vocals (dual lead-he and Carl) that fall (the unreleased version on Hawthorne) and then the group recorded a version closer to the original Redwood version for 20/20.  Personally I prefer the Hawthorne version-because I prefer the dual lead with Brian and Carl in their prime. 

I heard Brian Wilson was writing a couple tunes and or producing or arranging a track or
two of Danny Hutton on his new Three Dog Night album. Anybody know anything about that?

I read that online, that Cory Wells had his producer, and Danny Hutton was doing his tracks
with Richie Podolor and Bill Cooper and that somehow Brian Wilson wrote a song or two for
Hutton and was helping in the studio as arranger or something like that.

As far as I know. this would mark the first time since Redwood, that Wilson was helping
Hutton on a Three Dog Night Track