Your SMiLE mix...for the fun of it

[Phoenix]

I have a quick question for those who are experts with the dates. Can someone tell me dates and/or origins for the following pieces and stuff?


The "Cool Cool Water" fragment from the Good Vibrations box set
Also, does anyone know of or remember a Smile mix out there that synced up that fragment with "Dada"?

The "Water, water, water...na na na na..." chant, also where I can find it? I can't remember the original, official source.

The dates and/or origins of the "Wind Chimes" mix on the GV box set.

The date for the "second tag" on the "Windchimes" mix from disc 1 of TSS. (The part between the second and third "wordless chorus repeats")

And for reference's sake, the date of Derek's "Smile is scrapped" statement.


Thanks!

[soniclovenoize]

So...half a song is an Element? That makes no sense.

Well, if each Element was 1 minute long, then they'd be strung together into a 4 minute song.  Mrs O'Leary's Cow itself is only 1:30, and the Wind Chimes tag is 1:14.  Maybe you and I have different conceptions of just what The Elements actually was or supposed to be?  idk.

Why is it tagged as WC then and not the Elements.

idk why is Bicycle Rider tagged Heroes and Villains if it still had the Do You like Worms lyrics in it and was the wrong key?  Why was Who ran The Iron Horse tagged as it was if it was simply the chorus to Cabin Essence? 

Or maybe it was just moved from one track to another, like False Barnshine. 

Ive said it before and Ill say it again: Air, Water and Earth never happened. Never officially worked on, much less finished. That said, Undersea Chant and Breathing represent working versions of them. The way Anderle talks about them, and if I remember right, Vosse, I get the idea theyre linked.

So where's your proof?  Or is this just a hunch? 

But more important, these were unofficial recordings--just Brian playing around with ideas for SMiLE while the band was gone. And, wouldnt you know it, he rerecorded one of them later with them--the water chant. Obviously he didnt do that with Breathing--either because he didnt like the idea or changed his mind or whatever. But doesnt it stand to reason that if we know the water chant fromPS was a working idea, that the air one was too?

Which part specifically of the PS evolved into Water Chant?  I'm not hearing it; PS is more atonal chanting while Water Chant is a bit more musical over a droning E major chord with vocal harmonies.  Or is there a bit of info I'm missing? 

Seriously, its just common sense, and I think you know that but are just being difficult because you want to believe its something else.

See, this is the problem I'm trying to explain to you: You are making the same type of assumptions as I am, but you are labeling your assumptions common sense, yet mine requite burden of proof. 

Also, no, I don't WANT the Wind Chimes tag to be Air.  I prefer it at the end of Wind Chimes, and it doesn't sound right in the middle of The Elements (see the soudn sample I posted a few hours ago).  But in my mind, it's just common sense to know that
1) Brian mentioned Air was a piano piece that was never finished;
2) the SMiLE version of Wind Chimes was not finished because it was remade for Smiley Smile, and it has a specific minimalist piano piece
3) Air = Wind

I know you'll scoff at point 3, but it's the exact same type of logical conclusion you are making with Beathing = Air  (btw it sounds more like the ambient sound at a gym in my opinion.  Maybe the Breathing is actually Earth because it's the sound of exercise?)

Its not that hard to understand why unofficial experiments wouldnt be tracked as The Elements, yet official recordings would--either on the tape boxes, session sheets, studio chatter SOMETHING. It makes perfect sense, and hence why the burden of proof, if you believe the other elements were officially recorded/worked on, is on you.

Is the shuffling of song fragments from one proper track to another "official"? 

Hey, here's a wacky observation. If the piano fade is air, then why was it cut from BWPS AND TSS' versions of the song Wind Chimes? Why go thru the trouble to make a 4-song elements suite including WC and then cut the section that was apparently air according to you?

For the same reason Vege-Tables fade was cut: it was not appropriate for a live performance. 

I'm surprised that you turned to BWPS for evidence here; I guess IIGS and Holidays are also a part of The Elements? 

Im gonna go even further and say if youre really trying to claim Breathing doesnt make you visualize wind, air, breath, etc, then youre lying to make your argument look better by undermining mine. Pure and simple.

I would hope you could keep personal attacks of my character out of this.  I made the assumption we were just politely discussing music here, not attempting to attack me personally. 

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Im just gonna make one more post about it, and then let it rest because Im sick of having this same debate, reiterating the same points just to get pulled out of context, told I dont know what Im talking about for not reading XYZ articles, etc. Its getting ridiculous. I was led to believe that reading Anderle/Vosse would set me straight so to speak, but on the contrary, I think a lot of what they said either corroborated what I said or else were vague on topics of contention.

My theory is that Fire was the only Element recorded. Now, lets ignore all the articles, speculation, interviews years after the fact etc and just look at the music/recordings/official paperwork/archives and nothing more.

We have a track called The Elements on the official tracklist, as well as two other tracks WC and VT. Neither Dada nor anything we could look to as Water is there to be found. This suggests, in fact I would say proves, The Elements was one song.

Those three tracks are also labelled as such on the tape boxes, session logs and during studio chatter.

The only piece which is referred to as an element on any of those is what we know as Fire. It is always clearly labelled as Elements: Fire or Elements Part One or some such.

At no point, in any OFFICIAL medium whatsoever, is WC referred to as an element. Neither is Dada. VT has the lone mention in the booklet, which you could say is proof, or a mistake, or proof it evolved from an element into its own thing. In any case, this lone mention is totally outweighed by all other media, which in no way call it an element.

At the same time, we have a bootleg of some unofficial recordings Brian was doing with his friends. A lot of it seems to be junk--I could pull up mentions of spoken word humor, etc, but we're ignoring all that right now and just looking at whats recorded here. Even doing that, however, there's Hal Blaine prominent and undeniable on the tape, so theres obviously an air of respectability and seriousness about at least some of this material. Theres also takes of SMiLE songs on there, which seems to suggest a connection, however tenuous with the album. Now, with an argument about veggies on there, and water/air vocal experiments...that suggests something, doesnt it? You might say, oh but thats just Brian and his friends goofing off. Nothing ever came of these stoned sessions. Ok. Well, we have later an official Surfs Up session where Brian has the Wrecking Crew pretend to fall into french horns. Gee...that sounds kinda like those fall into a piano/mic skits he did in PS. Hmm. Seems to establish a precedent that at least some of these PS were working ideas meant to be more fully realized for SMiLE later. And the argument with Hal was completely sober and officially recorded. Brian is just as in control and determined as any official studio chatter recordings.

So, that George Fell skit was never used in an official SMiLE, you say? Well...theres also the Water Chant, which is absolutely similar in style and concept to the Undersea Chant.* So, again, there's precedent of him reusing an idea tried out during PS with the professionals--this time the Beach Boys themselves, and this time something that was used officially in BWPS & TSS. So...really now...doesnt it stand to reason Undersea Chant was at least a working idea for Water? I seriously think thats beyond proven at this point. Anyone who argues against it is really just grasping at straws--and will probably unironically use Water Chant at the beginning of their Dada to boot.

*EDIT: Sonic, if you really cant see how UC is similar--NOT the same--similar, to Water Chant I dont know what to say. Yes, the Water Chant is more melodic. But thats probably WHY Brian redid it in the first place, would you not say? To make it more melodic? I mean really, if you cant admit that a chant imitating fish and ocean sounds is similar to chanting "water" in a way that sounds rippling, flowing and watery...i think youre just being difficult. Like you refuse to give any ground to a theory which casts even the slightest doubt on the narrative youve settled on. Thats not an attack on your character, thats just my honest reaction if you cant see or admit something thats so obvious.

So, now we have established that theres a swath of unofficial recordings at least tentatively linked to SMiLE, with precedent for ideas there to be reused officially later. Whether its a coincidence in your mind or not, there are water, air and vegetable themed skits there just as we know SMiLE was going to have songs of those themes on it. More obliquely, theres also skits of a cab driver talking about how to get to chicago while we have a journey across America theme for half the album, with two songs referencing all kinds of transportation (Worms--Ocean Liners, Bicycles, concrete ribbons/roads & CE--Horses, Trains, Truck Drivers) and a section of a song called Mrs OLearys Fire--an obvious reference to the CHICAGO fire. Also skits about childhood endeavors like basketball and ice cream, when we have songs like SU, CIFOTM and Wonderful exploring childhood, growing up and innocence. Now, a good number of people dismiss PS. Say it was just Brian goofing off, smoking weed and wasting time, meant for another project, etc. I tell ya, I dont buy it at all. Anyone who actually listens to PS with an open mind can see its linked, and we have precedents of ideas therein worked on during SMiLE in an official setting, with both the Wrecking Crew and Beach Boys.

All that said, and it leads to one simple conclusion: The Breathing skit was an early idea for air Brian experimented with. Not the official Air. But THERE IS NO OFFICIAL AIR. And to deny such, is to deny the official tracklist, recordings, and everything else Ive meticulously gone over just now. So...thats my argument. Its simple, straightforward, and makes a whole lot of sense when you drop all pre-conceived notions and just look at the PHYSICAL EVIDENCE. It really is just a matter of that, dropping what youve decided is true, looking at the physical evidence, and just occams razor at that point. Some may try to turn it around and say "But breathing wasnt called Air either!!" Well...it wasnt officially recorded, so thered be no need to. It was just an experiment--Brian working out an "airy" idea on off hours, that he might do later in the studio if he liked it. And who came up with the name Breathing--who released the bootleg? For all we know, Brian couldve thought of it as Air, and wouldve labelled it as such had it been officially recorded, or had he known itd be booted. Its probably just one of his friends labeling it in the most literal way possible. But, again, this was an unofficial experimental recording that, unlike Undersea Chant, was never followed up on for whatever reason. UC became WATER chant, and Id wager Breathing couldve become AIR or AIR Chant had he followed up on it. Whether Brian changed his mind on using Breathing later is irrelevant--it was an idea he had at one point, which is all Im saying. Again, my argument is not that this is the final unquestionable air thatd be on the album. Im saying none of the other 3 were officially done period, and all we have are rough working concepts like this one. Simple.

But no. Apparently Im crazy, and yet some of you want to believe that the last half of Wind Chimes (but not the first part! that would be silly!) is air...even though at no point in any of the official media is it identified as such. Even tho its seperate on the tracklist, and the apparent airy WC part isnt on BWPS or TSS elements suites.**

**EDIT: Im using BWPS and TSS as a source because your argument, Sonic, is that all the elements were officially recorded. And aside from none of the official documentation corroborating that, none of the official recordings/releases do either. If WC fade is air...where is it? Why is it not used in the official releases of WC--or paired with Fire as a reconstructed Elements? Youd think thatd be a really simple thing for them to do, wouldnt it? And your excuse about live performances doesnt hold with TSS.

VT is...more complicated. There seems to be some proof it couldve been an element at least at one time--its in the booklet, which is official. And there are chants which Ive just argued were working ideas for two other elements. So its up to people to decide with this one. I personally think the tracklist, tape boxes and session sheets outweigh the booklet and PS. This was an officially recorded track, remember, and I find it hard to believe its seperate on the tracklist, and none of the tapes or studio chatter refer to it as an element if that was the plan.

Then Ive heard of Dada and even Surfs Up as Water. Personally, I find this ridiculous as well for the same reasons. No official mention in any annotations or documents of them as elements whatsoever. Dada it looks like didnt even make the initial cut. If people want to use it, for water or air, totally fine by me. I think its a nice way of giving an unused piece of music a home--similar to using Workshop as Earth because there is no Earth and it fits well enough. Just dont tell me its what Brian wouldve done, or get all uppity at me and my theory over it.

So thats really it. Ask yourselves...whats harder to believe? That Brian worked on some rough ideas unofficially for at least two other elements he never followed up on...or that he actually recorded EVERYTHING and yet only one was ever referred to anywhere as an element, and rather than use the title Mrs OLearys Fire, he called that one piece The Elements, even tho its just fire, and all the other songs are seperate on the tracklist, with no mention of being elements whatsoever on there? Oh, and apparently one of those elements is only half a song too...because reasons. Now, Im just a prickly bully with pink hair, but gee when you look at it that way, it really becomes obvious what the answer is, would you not say?

The reason I expunged all articles and questions of aesthetics from this conversation is because I think, while the former can be great sources, they lead to a lot of speculation and people trying desperately to find even the tiniest bits of evidence that suit their ideas even if it doesnt make sense or contrasts with a simpler narrative which doesnt require so many assumptions and forced interpretations. If you look too hard in them, for theories you desperately want to be true, you can start seeing things that arent there. I mean, come on now. "Oh, but Vosse talked about WC just after talking about the elements--so thats proof!" Bullshit. With all due respect, bullshit. Thats NOT a good enough reason to throw out what the physical evidence tells us, its just completely baseless speculation. Not even speculation, just grasping desperately for any little thing you can think of to prove what you've already decided is true. If any other known official SMiLE track was an element, he or Anderle--SOMEONE--would specifically say so. If the Elements was a four song suite rather than one 4 part track, SOMEONE would clarify that in no uncertain terms in all these interviews. It wouldnt require all this reaching and forced interpretation passed off as fact. And THATS what I had to read to even have a say in this conversation, without being accused of hobby horsing and bullying? Give me a break. Well, I gave those articles a read, and didnt find any definitive proof that contradicts the simpler narrative which the physical evidence presents us with. I didnt go into aesthetics because admittedly its subjective, tho I cant believe I should have to explain why half a song, a fully vocalized/instrumentalized piece, and a monotonous one minute instrumental would NOT make a strong, compelling, flowing elements suite. C'mon, Brian was WAY better than that. And this is just my opinion, but if he thought VT/WC/Fire/Dada would be an effective way to force a listener to visualized the elements...well, I hate to speak ill of my idol, but he failed because I think its a clumsy, forced mess. Its good for what it is in BWPS, but Im confident '66 Brian knew better. And its a moot point anyway, because again, the physical evidence tell us all we need without this kind of subjective/opinionated crap.

Ok, so thats my take on the elements in detail and thats the last Im gonna say on the debate. Im tired of getting roped into this argument again and again, being accused of things I never said (like Workshop being Earth) and all other annoyances. Maybe some of you will disagree, but we've been reiterating the same points and its getting us nowhere. Here's my stance, summed up as fully as I can bear at the moment, and if you wanna do the same, by all means.

/rant

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Hey, here's a wacky observation. If the piano fade is air, then why was it cut from BWPS AND TSS' versions of the song Wind Chimes? Why go thru the trouble to make a 4-song elements suite including WC and then cut the section that was apparently air according to you?

MY answer? Because by 2004 Brian couldn't have really cared less about finishing Smile but agreed with Melinda, etc. that was a great business idea. With Darian's help, they piece it together and Brian answered the definitive stuff, as he remembered it: IIGS, Barnyard, etc.* But when they got to "The Elements", which we know was never finished and was constantly in a state of flux before it was abandoned, Brian tells Darian, "All I ever knew for sure was MOC was Fire." Add to that the fact that like me and many others, the GV box set version of "Wind Chines" was the completed, definitive, Smile era version, they used it with (nearly) that same arrangment and quickly checked that song off the list and moved onto the next one, with all parites involved hoping they would in fact, make it to the finish line in time wih a completed version of Smile.

As for that there asterisk up there *
I honestly don't see why so many people have a hard time accepting the 2004 arrangements of IIGS and Barnyard (TOMP). Is it because they're listed as sections on BWPS and were listed as songs on the back cover and hand written list? Conversely, it boggles my mind how so many "purists" precede MOC with the HV Intro, when Brian has said he got that idea from fan edits (that he thought saounded cool) DECADES after the original album was scrapped.  If you're like Brian and just like the sound of it, that's fine but if you're going with "what he had in mind", it's just crazy, especially when couple with the rearrangements on IIGS and Barnyard.

Absolutely agreed

[soniclovenoize]

I have a quick question for those who are experts with the dates. Can someone tell me dates and/or origins for the following pieces and stuff?

Cool Cool Water was from 10/67

The Water Chant is unreleased, but is found on the bootlegs Unsurpassed Masters vol 16 (stereo mix) and vol 17 (stereo tracking session).

The mono mix of Wind Chimes on the GV box was done by Mark Linette but he emulated the structure of Brian's rough mono mix from 1966.  

Which part of Wind Chimes are you asking the date for?  What track is it on TSS?

[Phoenix]

Thanks!

With "Wind Chimes", I'm talking about TSS's main version of it: disc 1, track 16.
I'm referring to the last new section of that version.

[soniclovenoize]

Thanks!

With "Wind Chimes", I'm talking about TSS's main version of it: disc 1, track 16.
I'm referring to the last new section of that version.

Oh oh yeah 8/3/66, the very first SMiLE recording sessions proper (excluding Good Vibrations of course). 

[Phoenix]

Wow. That section goes back that far. Interesting. Since Mark followed Brian's '66 rough mix for the first box, do we know if Brian ever made a contemporary mix of "Wind Chimes" with that section also included or was the decision to include it more of a 2004 idea?

[soniclovenoize]

Wow. That section goes back that far. Interesting. Since Mark followed Brian's '66 rough mix for the first box, do we know if Brian ever made a contemporary mix of "Wind Chimes" with that section also included or was the decision to include it more of a 2004 idea?

I would say that ending tag remake from 10/5/66 was dropped and the original "chorus reprises" from 8/3/66 were reinstated in 2004 to  make an exciting performance. 

[Phoenix]

Got it. Thanks again for all your help!

[Sheriff John Stone]

I wanted to ask a question about the possibility of "Workshop" as an Element. Feel free to shoot the question/theory down. Pure speculation I admit...

I've been obsessing over "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" lately, trying to figure out what Brian was doing with it, where he placed it, etc. Early in many/most mixes, we get the first mention of "the lamp" in "Cabinessence" - light the LAMP and fire mellow. So Brian and Van Dyke established the lamp. But where is the lamp? In the barn, of course. And where is the barn? Out in the barnyard! So now we've established that there is a lamp and a barnyard/barn, with "Cabinessence" and "Barnyard". But, what's going on in the barnyard? Out in the barnyard the cook is chopping lumber!

Now for one of the questions. Is "Workshop" actually the cooks chopping lumber, with Brian employing humor with the power tools? What else could it be? That's a serious question. Forget the cooks, but it has to be "somebody" working with wood (lumber?) and probably inside (a barn?) because of the electrical cords? I mean, doesn't it sound like somebody woodworking...inside?

OK, now right to the issue. "Workshop" is basically 1:25 to 1:35, the perfect length for one of "The Elements". And, it's an instrumental full of sound effects; some might say that falls in line with "The Elements". Do you see where I'm going with this? You're in the barn. It's at night and we already lit the lamp. People are working in the barn (somebody was working in the barn on the actual night of the fire in 1871), and the next thing you know there's a fire. Admittedly, however, I can't find a cow.

I tried making a mix, going straight from "Workshop" into "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" (with and without the intro); it doesn't flow that great. But it's a possibility. Although I don't know what "element" you want to attach to "Workshop"; it's a stretch whichever element you choose. And, then there's the theory of rebuilding the barn by putting "Workshop" after "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" and having it still be an element.

Two last things, both personal opinions. Even grafted to "I Wanna Be Around", "Workshop" never seemed like a standalone track to me. I just think it has to part of a bigger, and I hate to use the term...suite. Maybe "The Elements" suite. And, "Workshop" isn't written separately on the handwritten list either. Personally, I use "Workshop" near "I'm In Great Shape" and before "Vegetables", but, hell, what do I know.

And, finally, if you listen closely near the end of "Workshop", you'll hear somebody (I wonder who that is?) going "Oww", like they're in pain from hitting their thumb with a hammer or something, or maybe being burned by fire...

EDIT: I also read there were high WINDS on the night of the Chicago fire which contributed to its spreading.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I wanted to ask a question about the possibility of "Workshop" as an Element. Feel free to shoot the question/theory down. Pure speculation I admit...

I've been obsessing over "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" lately, trying to figure out what Brian was doing with it, where he placed it, etc. Early in many/most mixes, we get the first mention of "the lamp" in "Cabinessence" - light the LAMP and fire mellow. So Brian and Van Dyke established the lamp. But where is the lamp? In the barn, of course. And where is the barn? Out in the barnyard! So now we've established that there is a lamp and a barnyard/barn, with "Cabinessence" and "Barnyard". But, what's going on in the barnyard? Out in the barnyard the cook is chopping lumber!

Now for one of the questions. Is "Workshop" actually the cooks chopping lumber, with Brian employing humor with the power tools? What else could it be? That's a serious question. Forget the cooks, but it has to be "somebody" working with wood (lumber?) and probably inside (a barn?) because of the electrical cords? I mean, doesn't it sound like somebody woodworking...inside?

OK, now right to the issue. "Workshop" is basically 1:25 to 1:35, the perfect length for one of "The Elements". And, it's an instrumental (or no vocals); some might say that falls in line with "The Elements". Do you see where I'm going with this? You're in the barn. It's at night and we already lit the lamp. People are working in the barn (somebody was working in the barn on the actual night of the fire in 1871). and the next think you know there's a fire. Admittedly, however, I can't find a cow.

I tried making a mix, going straight from "Workshop" into "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" (with and without the intro); it doesn't flow that great. But it's a possibility. Although I don't know what "element" you want to attach to "Workshop"; it's a stretch whichever element you choose. And, then there's the theory of rebuilding the barn by putting "Workshop" after "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" and having it still be an element.

Two last things, both personal opinions. Even grafted to "I Wanna Be Around", "Workshop" never seemed like a standalone track to me. I just think it has to part of a bigger, and I hate to use the term...suite. And, "Workshop" isn't written separately on the handwritten list either. Personally, I use "Workshop" near "I'm In Great Shape" and before "Vegetables", but, hell, what do I know.

And, finally, if you listen closely near the end of "Workshop", you'll hear somebody (I wonder who that is?) going "Oww", like they're in pain from hitting their thumb with a hammer or something, or maybe being burned by fire...

It makes about as much sense as WC tag or Dada as elements, thats for sure. I think, from a purely aesthetic view, it fits great after Fire, conveys the feeling of Earth, or working the Earth, and of rebuilding after destruction. Its an instrumental of about the same length as you say. Frankly, and Ive been saying this for over a year now, I wish we could just accept the elements is incomplete and just move on. I completely understand why people want to piece together their own version--but I wish we could just admit at least part of that is an aesthetics choice, rather than all this assuming there really was a finished, official recording right under our noses which isnt so.

My personal favorite version of the elements would be Breathing/Fire/Workshop/Undersea Chant and perhaps even experiment with that as an album closer. Then you have something that has a parellel with life as well as 4 clear, undeniable elemental sounding pieces of music. You could see it as a man having a heart attack, the desperate gasps of breath to terror (and/or death) itself, then a metaphorical rebuilding and returning to where life began. Kinda cheesy I admit, but its something cool I dont think anyones tried and Id like to next time I get around to making a mix. Fire is unquestionable. And I just put up an impassioned case for why UC and Breathing are the closest things to a vintage Water and Air we'll ever have. Where I admit aesthetics comes into it is using Workshop. Yeah, perhaps there's a better case to be made for Veggies--but so what, Veggies in there sounds terrible (my opinion, yes) and its so overly layered and complex compared to those simplistic instrumentals and a capellas it doesnt fit to my ears.

Someone else will say "I think Fire/Workshop/Water Chant/Dada(for Air) sounds better." And Id love to see that exact configuration tried too. Or the other idea I keep seeing people mention but never do-- Fire/Dada/Fall Breaks/Second Day. Those are 99.999999% not what Brian wouldve done. But what does it matter when no one can know for sure, and its almost positive the other 3, or at least one of the other 3, was never and will never be recorded? The point is, they sound great and use the material we have to amazing, and plausible, effect.

What drives me nuts enough to write such a long winded post before after I said I think talking about the Elements is a waste of time, is this annoying attitude that all elements were recorded officially, which just contradicts the evidence. Like, I dont care if you want to make an elements out of WC tag/VT (or just the tag of that too)/Fire and Surf's Up. Personally, I think that'd sound horrible and would fail to convey the feeling of the elements at all...but its your SMiLE. Just dont tell me you know what the elements really are, because of some forced interpretation of a vague quote from some article. If youre trying to say your elements is right and historical, the burden of proof is on you. And just above, one of the supporters of this theory even admitted they thought this version of the elements wouldnt sound good. Its like...ok, if you dont think it'll sound good...why are you doing it that way? Again, because of some very questionable "evidence" when officially there was nothing past Fire? Man...just have fun with it at that point. But ardently supporting WC tag and then acting like someone else is objectively wrong for using Workshop is just totally baffling to me. Its borderline hypocritical even.

Please forgive me. I know Im ranting like an asshole--and after I said my last post would be my final word on the subject--I just really need to get this outta my system. Ok. For reals now...bottom line...the elements, sans Fire was never officially recorded and will never be finished as Brian saw it. Thats what all my annoying ranting and raving boils down to. The TL;DR of both these past posts of mine. Now Im done.

[The_Holy_Bee]

Hey SJS, nice thoughts on 'Workshop' being an Element - in fact, I think used to be a pretty popular theory.  (Am I right in recalling it was used to follow 'Fire' in the Propoky Tapes?)

My own supposition, which I've gone into in greater detail elsewhere so will summarize here, is that most of the data points to 'IWBA/Workshop' being connected to 'I'm in Great Shape'/'Barnyard'. There's a (Great Shape) notation on the session logs for this track, and Mike Vosse speaks of it in conjunction with OMP/'Barnyard' in his crucial 'Fusion' article, for starters. The best guess I can make is that when H&V was decided on to be the single in late '66 (see Anderle in Crawdaddy! for an extended discussion of how this track was selected for A-side release), the original 'bits-and-pieces' construction ('Humble Harv') was considered not suitably commercial. So IIGS and 'Barnyard' were extracted and a new song title - 'I'm in Great Shape' - (cf. the 'Capitol memo') created to act as a clearinghouse for these newly orphaned sections.

EDIT: Re: this original conception of H&V, using 'Humble Harv' and the descriptions of the Durrie Parks acetates, I've suggested a possible assembly in the H&V thread on the TSS sub-board. No feedback on this yet, but would love to hear any thoughts folk might have on it. Shameless plug for a post on another thread over!

Anyway. IWBA/Workshop is recorded right at the end of November, the night after 'Fire'. So perhaps this part-cover, part-goof was hastily put together to pad out a track that would have been barely ninety seconds long if only the two sections mentioned above had been included. In my view - and it is only that - the timing of the sessions also explains Carol Kaye's oft-quoted comment (from the session tapes) about 'rebuilding after the fire'. Not that the tracks were meant to be connected, but because this jokey, relaxed session was the next to follow the extraordinary MOLC taping of the previous day.

(Regarding the workshop FX - these were dubbed over the instrumental recording at a later time/date, weren't they? Anyone - C-man? - able to confirm this?)

This said: A little discussed aspect of 'The Elements' is that this sorta-'opera' (Anderle) was also apparently intended to express some of Brian's enthusiasm for healthy living at the time (Anderle again). 'Vega-Tables' certainly fits the bill here. Perhaps IIGS/Sleep A Lot do too. So who knows?

[Sheriff John Stone]

I wanted to ask a question about the possibility of "Workshop" as an Element. Feel free to shoot the question/theory down. Pure speculation I admit...

I've been obsessing over "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" lately, trying to figure out what Brian was doing with it, where he placed it, etc. Early in many/most mixes, we get the first mention of "the lamp" in "Cabinessence" - light the LAMP and fire mellow. So Brian and Van Dyke established the lamp. But where is the lamp? In the barn, of course. And where is the barn? Out in the barnyard! So now we've established that there is a lamp and a barnyard/barn, with "Cabinessence" and "Barnyard". But, what's going on in the barnyard? Out in the barnyard the cook is chopping lumber!

Now for one of the questions. Is "Workshop" actually the cooks chopping lumber, with Brian employing humor with the power tools? What else could it be? That's a serious question. Forget the cooks, but it has to be "somebody" working with wood (lumber?) and probably inside (a barn?) because of the electrical cords? I mean, doesn't it sound like somebody woodworking...inside?

OK, now right to the issue. "Workshop" is basically 1:25 to 1:35, the perfect length for one of "The Elements". And, it's an instrumental (or no vocals); some might say that falls in line with "The Elements". Do you see where I'm going with this? You're in the barn. It's at night and we already lit the lamp. People are working in the barn (somebody was working in the barn on the actual night of the fire in 1871). and the next think you know there's a fire. Admittedly, however, I can't find a cow.

I tried making a mix, going straight from "Workshop" into "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" (with and without the intro); it doesn't flow that great. But it's a possibility. Although I don't know what "element" you want to attach to "Workshop"; it's a stretch whichever element you choose. And, then there's the theory of rebuilding the barn by putting "Workshop" after "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" and having it still be an element.

Two last things, both personal opinions. Even grafted to "I Wanna Be Around", "Workshop" never seemed like a standalone track to me. I just think it has to part of a bigger, and I hate to use the term...suite. And, "Workshop" isn't written separately on the handwritten list either. Personally, I use "Workshop" near "I'm In Great Shape" and before "Vegetables", but, hell, what do I know.

And, finally, if you listen closely near the end of "Workshop", you'll hear somebody (I wonder who that is?) going "Oww", like they're in pain from hitting their thumb with a hammer or something, or maybe being burned by fire...

It makes about as much sense as WC tag or Dada as elements, thats for sure. I think, from a purely aesthetic view, it fits great after Fire, conveys the feeling of Earth, or working the Earth, and of rebuilding after destruction. Its an instrumental of about the same length as you say. Frankly, and Ive been saying this for over a year now, I wish we could just accept the elements is incomplete and just move on. I completely understand why people want to piece together their own version--but I wish we could just admit at least part of that is an aesthetics choice, rather than all this assuming there really was a finished, official recording right under our noses which isnt so.

My personal favorite version of the elements would be Breathing/Fire/Workshop/Undersea Chant and perhaps even experiment with that as an album closer. Then you have something that has a parellel with life as well as 4 clear, undeniable elemental sounding pieces of music. You could see it as a man having a heart attack, the desperate gasps of breath to terror (and/or death) itself, then a metaphorical rebuilding and returning to where life began. Kinda cheesy I admit, but its something cool I dont think anyones tried and Id like to next time I get around to making a mix. Fire is unquestionable. And I just put up an impassioned case for why UC and Breathing are the closest things to a vintage Water and Air we'll ever have. Where I admit aesthetics comes into it is using Workshop. Yeah, perhaps there's a better case to be made for Veggies--but so what, Veggies in there sounds terrible (my opinion, yes) and its so overly layered and complex compared to those simplistic instrumentals and a capellas it doesnt fit to my ears.

Someone else will say "I think Fire/Workshop/Water Chant/Dada(for Air) sounds better." And Id love to see that exact configuration tried too. Or the other idea I keep seeing people mention but never do-- Fire/Dada/Fall Breaks/Second Day. Those are 99.999999% not what Brian wouldve done. But what does it matter when no one can know for sure, and its almost positive the other 3, or at least one of the other 3, was never and will never be recorded? The point is, they sound great and use the material we have to amazing, and plausible, effect.

What drives me nuts enough to write such a long winded post before after I said I think talking about the Elements is a waste of time, is this annoying attitude that all elements were recorded officially, which just contradicts the evidence. Like, I dont care if you want to make an elements out of WC tag/VT (or just the tag of that too)/Fire and Surf's Up. Personally, I think that'd sound horrible and would fail to convey the feeling of the elements at all...but its your SMiLE. Just dont tell me you know what the elements really are, because of some forced interpretation of a vague quote from some article. If youre trying to say your elements is right and historical, the burden of proof is on you. And just above, one of the supporters of this theory even admitted they thought this version of the elements wouldnt sound good. Its like...ok, if you dont think it'll sound good...why are you doing it that way? Again, because of some very questionable "evidence" when officially there was nothing past Fire? Man...just have fun with it at that point. But ardently supporting WC tag and then acting like someone else is objectively wrong for using Workshop is just totally baffling to me. Its borderline hypocritical even.

Please forgive me. I know Im ranting like an asshole--and after I said my last post would be my final word on the subject--I just really need to get this outta my system. Ok. For reals now...bottom line...the elements, sans Fire was never officially recorded and will never be finished as Brian saw it. Thats what all my annoying ranting and raving boils down to. The TL;DR of both these past posts of mine. Now Im done.

Thanks for your thoughts. After reading your articulate posts, I think you should write to Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks, or start a campaign or something, and try to persuade them to sit down with Darian Sahanaja - over several days! - and take each SMiLE track one at a time and tell everything they know/remember about them. It's an important part of popular music history, and the fact that such an analysis has not been done shows that SMiLE has not been taken as seriously as it should've been. When I think of how many years have gone by (wasted?), and how many other songs/albums have been discussed and dissected by other performers/artists...

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I wanted to ask a question about the possibility of "Workshop" as an Element. Feel free to shoot the question/theory down. Pure speculation I admit...

I've been obsessing over "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" lately, trying to figure out what Brian was doing with it, where he placed it, etc. Early in many/most mixes, we get the first mention of "the lamp" in "Cabinessence" - light the LAMP and fire mellow. So Brian and Van Dyke established the lamp. But where is the lamp? In the barn, of course. And where is the barn? Out in the barnyard! So now we've established that there is a lamp and a barnyard/barn, with "Cabinessence" and "Barnyard". But, what's going on in the barnyard? Out in the barnyard the cook is chopping lumber!

Now for one of the questions. Is "Workshop" actually the cooks chopping lumber, with Brian employing humor with the power tools? What else could it be? That's a serious question. Forget the cooks, but it has to be "somebody" working with wood (lumber?) and probably inside (a barn?) because of the electrical cords? I mean, doesn't it sound like somebody woodworking...inside?

OK, now right to the issue. "Workshop" is basically 1:25 to 1:35, the perfect length for one of "The Elements". And, it's an instrumental (or no vocals); some might say that falls in line with "The Elements". Do you see where I'm going with this? You're in the barn. It's at night and we already lit the lamp. People are working in the barn (somebody was working in the barn on the actual night of the fire in 1871). and the next think you know there's a fire. Admittedly, however, I can't find a cow.

I tried making a mix, going straight from "Workshop" into "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" (with and without the intro); it doesn't flow that great. But it's a possibility. Although I don't know what "element" you want to attach to "Workshop"; it's a stretch whichever element you choose. And, then there's the theory of rebuilding the barn by putting "Workshop" after "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" and having it still be an element.

Two last things, both personal opinions. Even grafted to "I Wanna Be Around", "Workshop" never seemed like a standalone track to me. I just think it has to part of a bigger, and I hate to use the term...suite. And, "Workshop" isn't written separately on the handwritten list either. Personally, I use "Workshop" near "I'm In Great Shape" and before "Vegetables", but, hell, what do I know.

And, finally, if you listen closely near the end of "Workshop", you'll hear somebody (I wonder who that is?) going "Oww", like they're in pain from hitting their thumb with a hammer or something, or maybe being burned by fire...

It makes about as much sense as WC tag or Dada as elements, thats for sure. I think, from a purely aesthetic view, it fits great after Fire, conveys the feeling of Earth, or working the Earth, and of rebuilding after destruction. Its an instrumental of about the same length as you say. Frankly, and Ive been saying this for over a year now, I wish we could just accept the elements is incomplete and just move on. I completely understand why people want to piece together their own version--but I wish we could just admit at least part of that is an aesthetics choice, rather than all this assuming there really was a finished, official recording right under our noses which isnt so.

My personal favorite version of the elements would be Breathing/Fire/Workshop/Undersea Chant and perhaps even experiment with that as an album closer. Then you have something that has a parellel with life as well as 4 clear, undeniable elemental sounding pieces of music. You could see it as a man having a heart attack, the desperate gasps of breath to terror (and/or death) itself, then a metaphorical rebuilding and returning to where life began. Kinda cheesy I admit, but its something cool I dont think anyones tried and Id like to next time I get around to making a mix. Fire is unquestionable. And I just put up an impassioned case for why UC and Breathing are the closest things to a vintage Water and Air we'll ever have. Where I admit aesthetics comes into it is using Workshop. Yeah, perhaps there's a better case to be made for Veggies--but so what, Veggies in there sounds terrible (my opinion, yes) and its so overly layered and complex compared to those simplistic instrumentals and a capellas it doesnt fit to my ears.

Someone else will say "I think Fire/Workshop/Water Chant/Dada(for Air) sounds better." And Id love to see that exact configuration tried too. Or the other idea I keep seeing people mention but never do-- Fire/Dada/Fall Breaks/Second Day. Those are 99.999999% not what Brian wouldve done. But what does it matter when no one can know for sure, and its almost positive the other 3, or at least one of the other 3, was never and will never be recorded? The point is, they sound great and use the material we have to amazing, and plausible, effect.

What drives me nuts enough to write such a long winded post before after I said I think talking about the Elements is a waste of time, is this annoying attitude that all elements were recorded officially, which just contradicts the evidence. Like, I dont care if you want to make an elements out of WC tag/VT (or just the tag of that too)/Fire and Surf's Up. Personally, I think that'd sound horrible and would fail to convey the feeling of the elements at all...but its your SMiLE. Just dont tell me you know what the elements really are, because of some forced interpretation of a vague quote from some article. If youre trying to say your elements is right and historical, the burden of proof is on you. And just above, one of the supporters of this theory even admitted they thought this version of the elements wouldnt sound good. Its like...ok, if you dont think it'll sound good...why are you doing it that way? Again, because of some very questionable "evidence" when officially there was nothing past Fire? Man...just have fun with it at that point. But ardently supporting WC tag and then acting like someone else is objectively wrong for using Workshop is just totally baffling to me. Its borderline hypocritical even.

Please forgive me. I know Im ranting like an asshole--and after I said my last post would be my final word on the subject--I just really need to get this outta my system. Ok. For reals now...bottom line...the elements, sans Fire was never officially recorded and will never be finished as Brian saw it. Thats what all my annoying ranting and raving boils down to. The TL;DR of both these past posts of mine. Now Im done.

Thanks for your thoughts. After reading your articulate posts, I think you should write to Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks, or start a campaign or something, and try to persuade them to sit down with Darian Sahanaja - over several days! - and take each SMiLE track one at a time and tell everything they know/remember about them. It's an important part of popular music history, and the fact that such an analysis has not been done shows that SMiLE has not been taken as seriously as it should've been. When I think of how many years have gone by (wasted?), and how many other songs/albums have been discussed and dissected by other performers/artists...

I sincerely appreciate it. I wasnt expecting anyone to be anything but annoyed by them, honestly, but it was just something I had to get off my chest.

I tried asking Brian about Psychedelic Sounds in his Q&A but he predictably didnt answer. I wouldnt mind writing to him, or Melinda or VDP--whoever may appreciate it. The problem is VDP and Brian seem to loathe talking about this album and I wouldnt want to come off like I was harassing them. Id still be down to try--and be as respectful as possible about it--if anyone could provide me an address or email of any relevant people.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Hey SJS, nice thoughts on 'Workshop' being an Element - in fact, I think used to be a pretty popular theory.  (Am I right in recalling it was used to follow 'Fire' in the Propoky Tapes?)

My own supposition, which I've gone into in greater detail elsewhere so will summarize here, is that most of the data points to 'IWBA/Workshop' being connected to 'I'm in Great Shape'/'Barnyard'. There's a (Great Shape) notation on the session logs for this track, and Mike Vosse speaks of it in conjunction with OMP/'Barnyard' in his crucial 'Fusion' article, for starters. The best guess I can make is that when H&V was decided on to be the single in late '66 (see Anderle in Crawdaddy! for an extended discussion of how this track was selected for A-side release), the original 'bits-and-pieces' construction ('Humble Harv') was considered not suitably commercial. So IIGS and 'Barnyard' were extracted and a new song title - 'I'm in Great Shape' - (cf. the 'Capitol memo') created to act as a clearinghouse for these newly orphaned sections.

EDIT: Re: this original conception of H&V, using 'Humble Harv' and the descriptions of the Durrie Parks acetates, I've suggested a possible assembly in the H&V thread on the TSS sub-board. No feedback on this yet, but would love to hear any thoughts folk might have on it. Shameless plug for a post on another thread over!

Anyway. IWBA/Workshop is recorded right at the end of November, the night after 'Fire'. So perhaps this part-cover, part-goof was hastily put together to pad out a track that would have been barely ninety seconds long if only the two sections mentioned above had been included. In my view - and it is only that - the timing of the sessions also explains Carol Kaye's oft-quoted comment (from the session tapes) about 'rebuilding after the fire'. Not that the tracks were meant to be connected, but because this jokey, relaxed session was the next to follow the extraordinary MOLC taping of the previous day.

(Regarding the workshop FX - these were dubbed over the instrumental recording at a later time/date, weren't they? Anyone - C-man? - able to confirm this?)

This said: A little discussed aspect of 'The Elements' is that this sorta-'opera' (Anderle) was also apparently intended to express some of Brian's enthusiasm for healthy living at the time (Anderle again). 'Vega-Tables' certainly fits the bill here. Perhaps IIGS/Sleep A Lot do too. So who knows?

Thank you for your response. Yes, actual data/documentation would suggest that "Workshop" was NOT an element. But you have to admit, it has some things (length, sound effects, wood/lumber) going for it. Damn, this "fire" is driving me nuts!  

[Sheriff John Stone]

I wanted to ask a question about the possibility of "Workshop" as an Element. Feel free to shoot the question/theory down. Pure speculation I admit...

I've been obsessing over "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" lately, trying to figure out what Brian was doing with it, where he placed it, etc. Early in many/most mixes, we get the first mention of "the lamp" in "Cabinessence" - light the LAMP and fire mellow. So Brian and Van Dyke established the lamp. But where is the lamp? In the barn, of course. And where is the barn? Out in the barnyard! So now we've established that there is a lamp and a barnyard/barn, with "Cabinessence" and "Barnyard". But, what's going on in the barnyard? Out in the barnyard the cook is chopping lumber!

Now for one of the questions. Is "Workshop" actually the cooks chopping lumber, with Brian employing humor with the power tools? What else could it be? That's a serious question. Forget the cooks, but it has to be "somebody" working with wood (lumber?) and probably inside (a barn?) because of the electrical cords? I mean, doesn't it sound like somebody woodworking...inside?

OK, now right to the issue. "Workshop" is basically 1:25 to 1:35, the perfect length for one of "The Elements". And, it's an instrumental (or no vocals); some might say that falls in line with "The Elements". Do you see where I'm going with this? You're in the barn. It's at night and we already lit the lamp. People are working in the barn (somebody was working in the barn on the actual night of the fire in 1871). and the next think you know there's a fire. Admittedly, however, I can't find a cow.

I tried making a mix, going straight from "Workshop" into "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" (with and without the intro); it doesn't flow that great. But it's a possibility. Although I don't know what "element" you want to attach to "Workshop"; it's a stretch whichever element you choose. And, then there's the theory of rebuilding the barn by putting "Workshop" after "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" and having it still be an element.

Two last things, both personal opinions. Even grafted to "I Wanna Be Around", "Workshop" never seemed like a standalone track to me. I just think it has to part of a bigger, and I hate to use the term...suite. And, "Workshop" isn't written separately on the handwritten list either. Personally, I use "Workshop" near "I'm In Great Shape" and before "Vegetables", but, hell, what do I know.

And, finally, if you listen closely near the end of "Workshop", you'll hear somebody (I wonder who that is?) going "Oww", like they're in pain from hitting their thumb with a hammer or something, or maybe being burned by fire...

It makes about as much sense as WC tag or Dada as elements, thats for sure. I think, from a purely aesthetic view, it fits great after Fire, conveys the feeling of Earth, or working the Earth, and of rebuilding after destruction. Its an instrumental of about the same length as you say. Frankly, and Ive been saying this for over a year now, I wish we could just accept the elements is incomplete and just move on. I completely understand why people want to piece together their own version--but I wish we could just admit at least part of that is an aesthetics choice, rather than all this assuming there really was a finished, official recording right under our noses which isnt so.

My personal favorite version of the elements would be Breathing/Fire/Workshop/Undersea Chant and perhaps even experiment with that as an album closer. Then you have something that has a parellel with life as well as 4 clear, undeniable elemental sounding pieces of music. You could see it as a man having a heart attack, the desperate gasps of breath to terror (and/or death) itself, then a metaphorical rebuilding and returning to where life began. Kinda cheesy I admit, but its something cool I dont think anyones tried and Id like to next time I get around to making a mix. Fire is unquestionable. And I just put up an impassioned case for why UC and Breathing are the closest things to a vintage Water and Air we'll ever have. Where I admit aesthetics comes into it is using Workshop. Yeah, perhaps there's a better case to be made for Veggies--but so what, Veggies in there sounds terrible (my opinion, yes) and its so overly layered and complex compared to those simplistic instrumentals and a capellas it doesnt fit to my ears.

Someone else will say "I think Fire/Workshop/Water Chant/Dada(for Air) sounds better." And Id love to see that exact configuration tried too. Or the other idea I keep seeing people mention but never do-- Fire/Dada/Fall Breaks/Second Day. Those are 99.999999% not what Brian wouldve done. But what does it matter when no one can know for sure, and its almost positive the other 3, or at least one of the other 3, was never and will never be recorded? The point is, they sound great and use the material we have to amazing, and plausible, effect.

What drives me nuts enough to write such a long winded post before after I said I think talking about the Elements is a waste of time, is this annoying attitude that all elements were recorded officially, which just contradicts the evidence. Like, I dont care if you want to make an elements out of WC tag/VT (or just the tag of that too)/Fire and Surf's Up. Personally, I think that'd sound horrible and would fail to convey the feeling of the elements at all...but its your SMiLE. Just dont tell me you know what the elements really are, because of some forced interpretation of a vague quote from some article. If youre trying to say your elements is right and historical, the burden of proof is on you. And just above, one of the supporters of this theory even admitted they thought this version of the elements wouldnt sound good. Its like...ok, if you dont think it'll sound good...why are you doing it that way? Again, because of some very questionable "evidence" when officially there was nothing past Fire? Man...just have fun with it at that point. But ardently supporting WC tag and then acting like someone else is objectively wrong for using Workshop is just totally baffling to me. Its borderline hypocritical even.

Please forgive me. I know Im ranting like an asshole--and after I said my last post would be my final word on the subject--I just really need to get this outta my system. Ok. For reals now...bottom line...the elements, sans Fire was never officially recorded and will never be finished as Brian saw it. Thats what all my annoying ranting and raving boils down to. The TL;DR of both these past posts of mine. Now Im done.

Thanks for your thoughts. After reading your articulate posts, I think you should write to Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks, or start a campaign or something, and try to persuade them to sit down with Darian Sahanaja - over several days! - and take each SMiLE track one at a time and tell everything they know/remember about them. It's an important part of popular music history, and the fact that such an analysis has not been done shows that SMiLE has not been taken as seriously as it should've been. When I think of how many years have gone by (wasted?), and how many other songs/albums have been discussed and dissected by other performers/artists...

I sincerely appreciate it. I wasnt expecting anyone to be anything but annoyed by them, honestly, but it was just something I had to get off my chest.

I tried asking Brian about Psychedelic Sounds in his Q&A but he predictably didnt answer. I wouldnt mind writing to him, or Melinda or VDP--whoever may appreciate it. The problem is VDP and Brian seem to loathe talking about this album and I wouldnt want to come off like I was harassing them. Id still be down to try--and be as respectful as possible about it--if anyone could provide me an address or email of any relevant people.

Well, we're approaching the 50th Anniversary of SMiLE (whenever they choose), and you know something will be done by somebody.

Yeah, Brian and Van Dyke formally discussing the SMiLE tracks is a huge long-shot, probably down in the low, single digit percentile. But, you never know, just like BWPS coming out in 2004...

[The_Holy_Bee]

After reading your articulate posts, I think you should write to Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks, or start a campaign or something, and try to persuade them to sit down with Darian Sahanaja - over several days! - and take each SMiLE track one at a time and tell everything they know/remember about them.

I realize this post is directed at Mujan - and I quite agree with its sentiment! - but it does remind me of a relevant story I'm not sure I've shared here before. Right at the end of the '04 SMiLE tour, Brian and his band played in Wellington, New Zealand. I was lucky enough to be sitting in the fourth row, right behind a group of BB fanatics who recognized me (though a little younger) as one of their own. As a result, I was invited to have a few drinks with the band at the Intercontinental Hotel after the show.

My friend Chris, who sadly died very young a couple of years back, and I spent a number of hours hanging with several of the musicians - most of that time chatting with Darian and Nick. They were both incredibly friendly and patient with two young SMiLE geeks, especially considering it was right at the end of a major and involved tour and did seem quite tired and keen to take a break. Nick particularly talked a bit about getting into more non-BW, Wondermints-focussed musical activity now SMiLE was 'over', though this doesn't seem to have really happened. (Surreal moment for a 22 year old: sitting on a street bench in downtown Wellington at 2am, eating kebabs with Brian Wilson's guitarist while he tells you about being responsible for song selection in an impromptu trailer-based jam session with Neil Young, Pete Townshend and Eric Clapton.)

It was about ten years ago, obviously, so much of what we discussed is now lost to history, but I did ask Darian about 'Child is Father of the Man' lyrics at least ('Van Dyke didn't have them - I don't think he was sure if he'd ever actually written any.') My overall 'takeaway' is that, in his many conversations with BW & VDP while putting together BWPS, there weren't actually many secrets to be revealed - or, at least, able to be recalled - regarding sequencing intentions, missing lyrics, etc. In short, if Brian or Van Dyke had remembered any particular plans for the album from '66, my impression is that they would have been employed in the eventual assembly. Indeed, when either did make any such suggestions - Look into CFOTM, for instance - they were usually, and immediately, implemented. I didn't get the sense that Darian felt there was all that much info still to excavate.

One other quick memory, on a lighter note, was Darian's fantastic story about the night of SMiLE's London premiere, when he was sitting with Brian at the back of the reception room after the show. 'Brian,' Darian said, seeing Paul McCartney and his bodyguard on the far side of the room, 'You know you and Sir Paul have always been my most important musical influences. No problem if you're uncomfortable about it, but do you think I might be able to get a photo with the two of you?'

Brian paused, looked seriously at Darian for a moment, and then suddenly hollered at top volume across the room, gesturing vaguely at his longtime collaborator and 'musical secretary': 'HEY PAUL! WANNA TAKE A PHOTO WITH THIS GUY?'

Macca immediately waved away his security, came over to the bench and sat on the other side of Darian, arm over his shoulder, for the requested picture. Which was still in his wallet when he told us that story about a decade ago.

[The Old Master Painter]

Prayer begins the album....

Good Vibrations is the next song, mainly due to Capitol's insistence.

Heroes and Villains begins the story OUT IN THE BARNYARD

Do You Like Worms deals with Pilgrims, the war between religion, belief, and American Indian spirituality

Wonderful is about a girl who loses love but finds God instead, which ties in with the spiritual side

Cabin Essence lights the lamp, and fire mellow, and kicks forward the Industrial Revolution

Mrs. O' Leary's Cow kicks the lamp and starts a Fire in the Barnyard

Love to Say Dada (or any prefered "Water" element) cools the fire to the ground

Workshop rebuilds the barnyard

The man now carts off and sells his Vega-Tables

He goes on a Holiday

with his tinkling Wind Chimes

Raises his children in Child Is The Father of The Man

and meets the Old Master Painter

and hear's the children's song in Surf's Up.

I don't, but this is just my hunch of a literal "concept" album.

[Phoenix]

Now for one of the questions. Is "Workshop" actually the cooks chopping lumber, with Brian employing humor with the power tools? What else could it be? That's a serious question. Forget the cooks, but it has to be "somebody" working with wood (lumber?) and probably inside (a barn?) because of the electrical cords? I mean, doesn't it sound like somebody woodworking...inside?

Two last things, both personal opinions. Even grafted to "I Wanna Be Around", "Workshop" never seemed like a standalone track to me. I just think it has to part of a bigger, and I hate to use the term...suite. Maybe "The Elements" suite. And, "Workshop" isn't written separately on the handwritten list either. Personally, I use "Workshop" near "I'm In Great Shape" and before "Vegetables", but, hell, what do I know.

And, finally, if you listen closely near the end of "Workshop", you'll hear somebody (I wonder who that is?) going "Oww", like they're in pain from hitting their thumb with a hammer or something, or maybe being burned by fire...

"Workshop" isn't an element. the rebuilding theory spun out of Carole remembering Brian saying it was "the rebuilding after the fire" but I took that to mean the session or the spirit of it, not one song being in direct relation to the other.  Either that, or another example of her faulty memory. 

It is what it was it's always been, ever since Brian spun "Great Shape out in to its own song: the end part of a suite, specifically "I'm In Great Shape". The people in the song are working inside (or outside), putting the pieces of the singer's heart back together.

The "ow" is because yes, someone hit their thumb with a hammer or whatever.

Brian asking for the "Great Shape" fragment (as opposed to the song) to be grouped with "Heroes And Villains was either to a) show its association with its former parent songs, since it was going to wind up grouped with it on the corresponding sessions disc, b) offer a slight variation between the tracklisting for TSS first disc and BWPS, c) to f*ck with the die hard obsessives, or d) some combination of the above.

Take it for what it's worth but I am 100% convinced of this.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Im already getting ideas for my next mix today, just reading those articles and arguing about this sh*t. Now Im thinking:

Youre Welcome or possibly H&V intro/H&V
Vega-Tables (w/argument)
some kind of simplistic GS, like maybe just that and Barnyard
Cabin Essence (w/ Taxi Cab)
Worms
OMP (w/He Gives Speeches lyrics over the Barnshine Fade)

GV
Wonderful(w/ George Fell)
CIFOTM
Wind Chimes
Elements (Breathing/Fire/Workshop/UnderseaChant)
Surf's Up (w/ Prayer at the end...POSSIBLY followed by Moaning Laugh if I think it sounds good)

Yeah, its essentially just shuffling around some tracks from the last two times. But I think this does a few important things, and bridges what I liked about my last two mixes together. Ive decided to experiment with Prayer as the last rather than first track, as Vosse and Siegel allude too. I really like this idea and dont see too many if any people actually do it. After my numerology experiment, Im 100% convinced these groupings are canon. What I mean is, the songs on both sides were meant to go on the same side in some kind of order. I had it that way in Olorin, but changed things around in Romestamo. Now Im putting them back, but still mixing up the order on each side a bit to keep things fresh. This time too, Im controlling the use of PS. Yeah its still present--because I honestly think some of it WOULD be present--but I admit I took it too far with Olorin. And now its more controlled--something after every two songs. A comedy skit per side, a "mood-setter" like UC and Taxi Cabber per side and thats it. Enough that you get the taste of Brian's humor--which all the big sources agree was super important--but that it doesnt get distracting. And then with pseudo-hidden tracks at the end, with HGS and Prayer. This way, I can try out that new idea for the elements. And hopefully with that, it'll sound more "lifey" and not as forced on Side 2 as I think it came off in Olorin. It can be the elements and also someone reborn--which ties into the second trip which inspired Fire, with Brian dying and being reborn in fire. Normally Im a big supporter of Worms as the first track, but Id like to experiment with putting it and CE back to back again, and connected by the Taxi Cab skit. Unfortunately, now the reference to Chicago is wasted because it doesnt precede Fire...but there's always sacrifices. And without Prayer first, I can retain the YW opening I really loved from Aquarian SMiLE...or try H&V intro first, which to my knowledge no one has done and I think could be really cool as the very first thing you hear on SMiLE. Its unnerving enough that you dont know what to expect, but playful enough it matches the cover/title. Now I can try out having Veggies come second after Heroes like on Smiley. This way the humor starts out really strong and then kinda slowly fizzles out. This way, the leap from Side 1 to Side 2 wont be quite so drastic as I feel it was in Romestamo. And Id like to honor that "the big finale" remark regarding OMP, and keep the HGS lyrics over the Barnshine fade i really loved with Aquarian. One of my beefs with Romestamo was how much noticeably less energized and fun Side 2 was in comparison to side 1. I think moving the elements back, and using this new, more organic arrangement, will help rectify that. As will having Prayer there.

Yessir...thats my idea of a concept album

[Phoenix]

The best guess I can make is that when H&V was decided on to be the single in late '66 (see Anderle in Crawdaddy! for an extended discussion of how this track was selected for A-side release), the original 'bits-and-pieces' construction ('Humble Harv') was considered not suitably commercial. So IIGS and 'Barnyard' were extracted and a new song title - 'I'm in Great Shape' - (cf. the 'Capitol memo') created to act as a clearinghouse for these newly orphaned sections.

Very close to my conclusion. The way I see it, both songs were spun into their own, separate mini-suites. "Great Shape" was paired with IWBA and "Workshop", while "Barnyard" was grouped with TOMP, YWMS, and the "Barnshine" fade. On the tracklisting, the former is named "I'm In Great Shape", while the latter, which Brian had clearly not settled on a definitive name yet, was written as (The Old Master Painter) (with crossed out parenthesis). During that time (and later) it was also being referred to as "(the) Barnyard Suite". I think the correct name, had Brian had more time to think about it, would have been written as "Barnyard (The Old Master painter)"

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Now for one of the questions. Is "Workshop" actually the cooks chopping lumber, with Brian employing humor with the power tools? What else could it be? That's a serious question. Forget the cooks, but it has to be "somebody" working with wood (lumber?) and probably inside (a barn?) because of the electrical cords? I mean, doesn't it sound like somebody woodworking...inside?

Two last things, both personal opinions. Even grafted to "I Wanna Be Around", "Workshop" never seemed like a standalone track to me. I just think it has to part of a bigger, and I hate to use the term...suite. Maybe "The Elements" suite. And, "Workshop" isn't written separately on the handwritten list either. Personally, I use "Workshop" near "I'm In Great Shape" and before "Vegetables", but, hell, what do I know.

And, finally, if you listen closely near the end of "Workshop", you'll hear somebody (I wonder who that is?) going "Oww", like they're in pain from hitting their thumb with a hammer or something, or maybe being burned by fire...

"Workshop" isn't an element. the rebuilding theory spun out of Carole remembering Brian saying it was "the rebuilding after the fire" but I took that to mean the session or the spirit of it, not one song being in direct relation to the other.  Either that, or another example of her faulty memory. 

It is what it was it's always been, ever since Brian spun "Great Shape out in to its own song: the end part of a suite, specially "I'm In Great Shape". The people in the song are working inside (or outside), putting the pieces of the singer's heart back together.

The "ow" is because yes, someone hit their thumb with a hammer or whatever.

Brian asking for the "Great Shape" fragment (as opposed to the song) with "Heroes And Villains was either to a) show its association with its former parent songs, since it was going to wind up grouped with it on the corresponding sessions disc, b) offer a slight variation between the tracklisting for TSS first disc and BWPS, c) to f*ck with the die hard obsessives, or d) some combination of the above.

Take it for what it's worth but I am 100% convinced of this.

Personally, I just think this idea of a Barnyard suite is kinda overblown. I know what Vosse said--but that was an extremely early take and times change. I think IIGS was supposed to just use some leftover lyrics and ideas from H&V and maybe other songs--maybe even the cornucopeia lyrics too--and give them a new home. Similar to how Iron Horse, Grand Coulee Dam and Home on the Range became Cabin Essence, I think something similar wouldve happened here. Like a verse/chorus/verse/chorus/bridge/fade of GS, Do A Lot, All Day Barnyard or something similar to that.

Theres some evidence the BWPS conglomeration is vintage but personally I just dont like it at all, nor do I see the relevance. Youre in great shape...I Wanna Be Around (boring, lousy cover that takes precious time away from better material) and then workshop. Now, I get the joke with Workshop coming after IWBA; its literally rebuilding the pieces. But I dont get how IIGS fits in. I just think its kind of a lame collection of music, and Ive seen a lot of people put Barnyard in there too for the fade, but that makes even less sense with everything together then. Its not a coherent idea expressed there.

This is like the Elements for me, its another case where I say "this track is unfinished, and its SO unfinished that I have no idea what to do with it. Any direction I take is based on speculation from minimal evidence...so Im just gonna do what I think sounds right."

I really like Workshop. Its a really cool, trippy bit of music. I personally think it fits better as a fade to Wonderful or as a stand in for Earth. Without proper lyrics, I also think the verse melody for GS fits better as an intro to Wonderful. I personally dislike the covers on SMiLE: Gee, IWBA and OMP. I think theyre a waste of time, the worst bits there are, and theres better things to fit on the album. Ive accepted OMP because its on the tracklist and I think it actually does have a significant theme to it which helps tie the album together. But Im happy to leave Gee and IWBA off.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Now for one of the questions. Is "Workshop" actually the cooks chopping lumber, with Brian employing humor with the power tools? What else could it be? That's a serious question. Forget the cooks, but it has to be "somebody" working with wood (lumber?) and probably inside (a barn?) because of the electrical cords? I mean, doesn't it sound like somebody woodworking...inside?

Two last things, both personal opinions. Even grafted to "I Wanna Be Around", "Workshop" never seemed like a standalone track to me. I just think it has to part of a bigger, and I hate to use the term...suite. Maybe "The Elements" suite. And, "Workshop" isn't written separately on the handwritten list either. Personally, I use "Workshop" near "I'm In Great Shape" and before "Vegetables", but, hell, what do I know.

And, finally, if you listen closely near the end of "Workshop", you'll hear somebody (I wonder who that is?) going "Oww", like they're in pain from hitting their thumb with a hammer or something, or maybe being burned by fire...

It is what it was it's always been, ever since Brian spun "Great Shape out in to its own song: the end part of a suite, specially "I'm In Great Shape". The people in the song are working inside (or outside), putting the pieces of the singer's heart back together.

I'm not disagreeing with you. Hell, what do I know?

But it never made any sense to me. It's morning, the guy tumbles out of bed, fresh air all around his head, he's surrounded by agriculture, he's in great shape! And then, a second later, pieces of his broken heart are being put back together. OOOOKKKKK...

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Now for one of the questions. Is "Workshop" actually the cooks chopping lumber, with Brian employing humor with the power tools? What else could it be? That's a serious question. Forget the cooks, but it has to be "somebody" working with wood (lumber?) and probably inside (a barn?) because of the electrical cords? I mean, doesn't it sound like somebody woodworking...inside?

Two last things, both personal opinions. Even grafted to "I Wanna Be Around", "Workshop" never seemed like a standalone track to me. I just think it has to part of a bigger, and I hate to use the term...suite. Maybe "The Elements" suite. And, "Workshop" isn't written separately on the handwritten list either. Personally, I use "Workshop" near "I'm In Great Shape" and before "Vegetables", but, hell, what do I know.

And, finally, if you listen closely near the end of "Workshop", you'll hear somebody (I wonder who that is?) going "Oww", like they're in pain from hitting their thumb with a hammer or something, or maybe being burned by fire...

It is what it was it's always been, ever since Brian spun "Great Shape out in to its own song: the end part of a suite, specially "I'm In Great Shape". The people in the song are working inside (or outside), putting the pieces of the singer's heart back together.

I'm not disagreeing with you. Hell, what do I know?

But it never made any sense to me. It's morning, the guy tumbles out of bed, fresh air all around his head, he's surrounded by agriculture, he's in great shape! And then, a second later, pieces of his broken heart are being put back together. OOOOKKKKK...

Yep, exactly my issue