The Smiley Smile Message Board

Would Carl and the passions-So tough be considered an alias/pseudonym or side project album ? Esp since it sounds nothing like the BBs and no album before or after.. the double LP with Pet Sounds doesn't even say beach boys on it..

As far as I ever seen it was always a Beach Boys product. On the first day of release, it was in the bin under The Beach Boys. So record stores knew it was a Beach Boys album.

Carl and the Passions was either a group Carl dabbled with prior to the Beach Boys OR a name the Beach Boys considered before someone else named them instead.   Beach Boys somehow worked better.  Kept these guys young up until oh...say...NOW.   Either way...It is the Beach Boys.  Same lineup as is the case with Holland and with that fantastic 1973 live 2 record set.  It ain't no 'side' project.  Never was.

Too bad that lineup didn't last a whole lot longer.  [not to mention the forward thinking.]

CATP sounds like Holland and "In Concert."

I was just thinking about this the other day - it actually was a pretty audacious move - subtitling the album as a fictitious band name ("So Tough" is the name of the album per se) a la Sgt. Pepper's, that no one has EVER talked about or questioned the reasoning of.  Someone somewhere must have come up with the idea (Jack Reiley?).  Carl certainly was trying to reinvent the band at that point with the new members.  It certainly had to have been a factor.

Even though most fans would be in the know, others might not have been. I imagine that they lost a few sales just by the Beach Boys name not spreading on the anywhere.

But Eric...Didn't all of the copies originally released come with the added bonus of the second album [Pet Sounds] and wasn't it HIGHLY promoted in the trades that THIS was, in fact, the NEW Beach Boys album with the bonus 12 incher?  It also happened that 'You Need a Mess Of Help to Stand Alone' and 'Cuddle Up' were released at the same time as the new Beach Boys single...A side/B side.

I was living up in Northern Ontario that summer working for Allied Van Lines as a summer job while taking the break from college.  Even up there in North Bay I knew what was going on. 8)

C&TP reminds me of the Mothers of Invention album Cruising with Ruben & the Jets, which actually spawned a band of that name, led by one Ruben Guevara...

Anyone know how the title "So Tough" came about. Sounds like a Sha-Na-Na type of thing.

I think Lee is right that Carl and the Passions was one of the original possible ideas for the name of the group before they decided on The Pendletones.   

I do agree that, at least for the first two or three songs, the album doesn't really sound like The Beach Boys.  I think Marcella is the first BB sounding track on that album. 

I think Blondie and Ricky blended more with the group on Holland. 

Really only three songs that have the trademark harmonies; Marcella, All This Is That and Cuddle Up. I guess you could add He Come Down too. Personally, I liked that it was different. I liked that all four early 70's albums sounded different from each other. That they pushed themselves and tried new things to move themselves forward. It was great time to be a fan and see them progress as a band.

Since we're talking So Tough, why did the record company think bundling the new album with a six-year-old album was a good idea? That's a head-scratcher to me. Didn't the likely audience for a new album have all the old ones already?

No doubt.  I agree 100%.  I don't think it's a bad album at all.  It's probably my least favorite of the four from the early 70s.  But still better than each album they released in the late 70s. 

And I should note one of my favorite tracks from this era is Leaving This Town, which sounds nothing like The Beach Boys. 

My biggest complaint with it is that all of the faster numbers like ...Stand ALone, Marcella and even ...Dear Brother could of used a little faster tempo. All good songs, but they kind of feel constipated, if you know what I mean.

I know what you mean.  The live version of Marcella is much better. 

And I like the Brian Wilson and Friends version of Hold On Dear Brother a lot.  Nate Ruess's voice really works well on that one. 

Absolutely, it was a delight and highlight of the show, for me. It was one of the most energetic songs of the evening.

yeah definitely not an important/essential album by any means.

It makes you wonder if the addition of Blondie and Rikki led to a discussion along those lines... Is this the same group? Maybe they considered the name change ala "Beach", scrapped the idea but kept the title anyway because they liked it.

Mr. Kook, sometimes I think you're putting us all on. 

I thought you said that all BB albums from Holland and prior were great, and every album after Holland is crap.

 ;D 

That's not a tough question at all.  ;)  It is not even in the slightest a side project.  And btw it sounds very similar to Holland and somewhat similar to LA.

That is a stumper, for sure. In hindsight though, it was a blessing. As it turned out, it has been the best mono pressing by either Capitol or Reprise to this day. Some argue that Hoffman's DCC release is best, but I'd beg to differ on that.

Maybe the slower tempos were due to the band smoking a bunch of weed, which can lend itself to stony, slower BPMs...

Yeah, you are probably right.  :lol

There's the rub. He's realised CATP_ST doesn't fit his statement, so he's seeking a way he can explain it away as not a proper Beach Boys album.

It's also worth pointing out that the respect for CATP is pretty recent.  If you read books and articles about the BBs from the time of its release up into the '80s, it was mostly talked about in critical terms comparable to SUMMER IN PARADISE.  People at the time really reacted badly to the album's shift in sound direction.

On the original 16 track of FALLIN' IN LOVE, just before the master take begins, Dennis (who was singing live during the basic tracking) quietly announces, "'So Tough' by Carl and the Passions."

There's a good chance the phrase "so tough" is a reference to the teenage slang that was thrown around back in Hawthorne (and probably other nearby locales). See also, "cool head." Some of these phrases are listed here for your edification:

http://cougartown.com/slang.html (http://cougartown.com/slang.html)

I always took So Tough to be a reference to the song by the Casuals.

Interesting. This is a song I didn't know about; thanks for the heads up. You're probably right.

Wow, that is fascinating. Must have been a double-take moment when you first heard that on the tape!

and a lot of those reviews also compared it with Pet Sounds which did it no favors.

Yup, also absolutely true.  It was really a baffling move all 'round, particularly after the relative success of SURF'S UP.

I dont literally think every BB album after holland is crap but its widely agreed that they were weak. And there were earlier albums that weren't thar strong either like friends...but so tough without marcella is undeniably weak any by no means essential. Its not a crucial collectible like all summer long-summer days-pet sounds-wild honey etc. Is that a better clarification?

This is really fascinating.  Could Dennis have been contemplating that Fallin' In Love would be on the next BB album following Sunflower, and thinking at the time, I guess some time in late 1970, that the next album would be titled Carl and the Passions So Tough (or some derivation thereof)?

And exactly why did Sound of Free/Lady see release under the name Dennis Wilson and Rumbo, and was not released in the US?  And why is the sound quality so poor on the single, especially on Sound of Free, which comes across sounding like it's being played through a small inexpensive transistor radio, with virtually no low end or high end, just a bunch of tinny midrange?

Allegedly, and I stress the allegedly, the name originated in highschool when Brian wanted Carl to sing in an ad-hoc band he was putting together for a school assembly. Carl said no, so Brian threatened to call the band Carl & The Passions. Daft enough to be true.  ;D

As for the album itself, been saying for decades, it's more four singles* than an album... and seriously, how bad did some of the outtakes have to be that they had to beg Dennis for two cuts from his solo album then in progress ?

[* - the BW/JR single, the TM single, the DW single and the Flame single]

I bought Carl and the Passions off the wrack back in, what - '72. Loved the cover art from the first. In fact I'd say it's the best cover art they ever put out. It got into a heavy rotation in my gang of n'er-do -wells, along with Stevie Wonder, Argent and the Moody Blues - Art Rock I suppose. It sounds just like Holland.  I think of them as being essentially the same album and have mixed them together with a couple of Charles Lloyd tracks. Don't think I ever listened to the copy of Pet Sounds that came packaged with it.

Over the years, I've grown to like it, but it still seems a little lacking. I would have liked Out in the Country on it too. To be honest, I'm not a great fan of Mess of Help. I like Marcella, Cuddle Up and All This Is That, Don't mind Hold On. I think it's their weakest album between Pet Sounds and Holland. By far.  What were the other tracks in contention? Ten Years of Harmony?

I'm guessing if Bruce had remained in the band Ten Years of Harmony would have been on the record. Rooftop Harry was from around this time. I always wish Brian had offered up Sweet Mountain for the guys.

Ask and ye shall recieve...:

gigs & sessions 1971 (http://www.esquarterly.com/bellagio/gigs71.html)

gigs & sessions 1972 (http://www.esquarterly.com/bellagio/gigs72.html)

I know, I know, I( know. I should've looked it up but I was in a hurry. I feel guilty. Sorry!!!!!

I can only comment on what I've heard, and I'm not familiar with Beatrice (which morphed into Mess of Help) or Body Talk or Spark in the Dark. I have heard It's a New Day, Out in the Country and Bruce's Ten Years of Harmony* the first two of which I wouldn't have minded on the album - it's a pretty short album anyhow - but I would still peg it as their weakest between Pet Sounds and Holland

* Or was it Brand New Old Friends? About the Marx Brothers but sentimental and sappy, but I'd have it on the album

Checking Bellagio, which I should have done in the first place, I see that Lady/Fallin' In Love was recorded in Dec 1969.  So if Dennis was somehow seriously making reference to the title of the next BB album, it would have been for Sunflower rather than Surfs Up.

Which means Dennis deserves Sole credit for the LP title as someone subsequently used his voiced thought

The more I think about it, the album almost seems like something they needed to come up with to hang on/pair with the rerelease of PET SOUNDS, rather than vice versa.  I'm not saying that's what it was, but it would explain a lot.

They really were kind of in a tight spot because Carl didn't really write (I mean of course he did, but he was probably the least prolific writer in the whole band, with only two songs under his belt as of CATP), so he couldn't really spearhead the band without songs to work with, and that meant cadging them out of Brian or Dennis or molding what Mike and Al brought to the table, which probably didn't jibe with where he thought the band should go in 1972.  No surprise in that situation that Ricky and Blondie were brought in and given two songs straightaway.

 Warner wanted CARL & THE PASSIONS as part of a double set with the version of SMILE assembled by Carl Wilson around this time. When SMILE '72 wasn't forthcoming, they made PET SOUNDS record two of the set. I think that's the case anyway.


  It's the least of the four early 70s Beach Boys' albums but never offensive and sometimes rather good. Agree that "Sweet Mountain" would have been a nice addition. 

The Reprise contract called for a master for Smile to be delivered no later than May 1973. Another clause included the rights to all post-Party ! Capitol albums, and seemingly someone had the bright idea of pairing them with new Reprise releases. It's an area I'd like to know more about...

I think this insight is on the money. I read a Beach Boys interview where a few members of the group were hyping up this album.

I'd like to know more about this as well.  For sure Capitol owned the rights to Pet Sounds, so what type of recompense were they given for the allowing Brother/Reprise to release that album?  Smiley Smile was released on the Brother Record label, but the BBs went back to Capitol for Wild Honey, Friends, and 20/20.  Since the rights for everything thru 20/20 reverted to Capitol many years ago, I'm assuming the rights for Brother/Reprise to release these albums either had a set end date or ended when the BBs were no longer signed to Warner Reprise.

It would have been interesting to see how the track listing for Endless Summer and Spirit of America would have changed if Capitol still had the rights to tracks such as Wouldn't It Be Nice, Sloop John B, God Only Knows, Darlin, and Do It Again.  Personally, I liked it better the way it played out, with the earlier stuff appearing on Endless Summer and Spirit of America in 1974 and 75, and Pet Sounds (single LP by itself), Wild Honey & 20/20 (double LP), and Friends & Smiley Smile (double LP) all seeing re-release on Brother/Reprise during the BBs resurgence of 1974, followed by a "Best of" in 1975 featuring songs from every BB album from Pet Sounds thru Holland except for CATP-ST.

At what point after the Warner Reprise contract was signed did the guys start lobbying Brian to finish Smile?  Had he agreed to the original deadline of May 1973, or was he initially unaware of it's presence in the Warner Reprise contract?  And at what point did it become very apparent that Brian had no desire to revisit the Smile tracks and it's release at that time wasn't gonna happen?  Being a huge fan back then, I don't recall any PR saying that a release of Smile was forthcoming, or even being considered.

I remember hearing two theories as to why Pet Sounds was coupled with CATP-ST in the US back in 1972.  The first was the claim, as Andrew mentioned, that each of the five albums from Pet Sounds thru 20/20 would be paired with a new BB release, which seems like an idiotic idea, but it did in fact happen with CATP in the US (but not elsewhere where EMI still owned the rights to the five albums in question), and I do recall reading somewhere in print back then that that was why Pet Sounds was coupled with CATP.  The second was the claim that Warner Reprise found CATP to be such a weak album that they felt compelled to add Pet Sounds to CATP-ST to either (1) offer the consumer more for their money, or (2) show Brian and the BBs what they were once capable of, or (3) a combination of both.

I always assumed it was packaged with Pet Sounds because it would have needed a mess of help to stand alone. :drumroll

Ahem.  I'll show myself out now.

Pray do. The door is over there.

:lol  Good one!



Unpopular opinion time....this is one of my favorite BB albums, period, and some days I prefer it to Surf's Up, although it still falls below Sunflower and Holland to me. It could've used a couple of more songs, though, and I run hot and cold with 'Make it Good'. Also, the mix leaves a bit to be desired at times...although instrumentally it is ace, sometimes the vocals are buried a bit. Other than that, though, the album is tits. And despite the prevalent belief that Brian is nowhere to be found, he's actually present on three.... Mess of Help and He Come Down were at least partially produced by him, and is audible vocally on the backups for Mess, He Come Down, and Marcella (the latter two sounding suspiciously like his 1975 self....)

Tits?  ;D

Yup...gotta love 'em

What part does Brian sing on Marcella?

The 'Marcella Hey' part in the tag, and also the high(-ish) part of the 'hey yeah Mar...CELL...A' (bolded the most audible part)

Alley oop...

:lol

Bravo!

Yes, it needed something to Make It Good.

I'm Leaving This Town for another one. I think I'll Cuddle Up in a cozy nook, with a warm drink and a book.

And we'll have Fun Fun Fun til I die on the Sloop John B.

Worst trip, indeed.

To be honest what these jokes need is some Good Timin'

Still I Dream Of It.

I always assumed that was a combination of Al and Bruce. As noted, once you know what to look for, Brian is all over his 3 Carl & The Passions tracks.

Here's a quote from Mike from the NME as featured in John Tobler's book.  Doesn't answer your questions or add anything new, but thought you might like the read:
"We've bought the rights of five old albums to distribute them for seven years plus Smile, the album that was never released.  

The thing we want to do is a combination of bringing everyone up to date and giving everyone a chance to get an old collectors' item that has been discontinued by the record company.

Americans have to write to England if they want copies of albums like Smiley Smile.  So we are going to issue the new Beach Boys album (CATP) and one of the old classics in a double set but won't charge any more money for the old album.  In England, it's coming out as a single album because we couldn't get the rights to the old albums over here."  

John T then talks about the pairing of CATP with PS as a bit of a strange move.

The Byron Preiss book says the specific pairing was a label decision.  Both tomes quite old.

Thank you to all acknowledging So Tough as an album by the Beach Boys and NOT a side project!! I'd been arguing on Facebook with a few fans who keep referring to it as a side project. There's no side project about it, title or no title! It's the album before Holland and after Surfs Up.

100% agreed!

Mike Love announces that Smile is coming out "this year" in a 1972 live recording of Wonderful, as heard on Endless Harmony.

On a computer at home, I've got a scan of a 1972 article by Richard Williams (I don't know what magazine it's from, maybe Melody Maker?), titled "SMILE! It's Carl and the Passions".  It's very hard to read, but I'll see if I can transcribe the relevant bits and post them later.

Okay...I've transcribed the part of the article about Smile '72:

    You thought “Surf’s Up” was a nice surprise, maybe?  Well listen, kids: If you can steer clear of the grim reaper ‘til next Fall, “Smile” is coming your way.

     And, yes, it’s the real “Smile” – the original tapes, made in 1967 by Brian Wilson and never released because . . .  well, I guess you know the story about the “Fire” track, and how it caused a rash of conflagrations within the immediate vicinity of the studio.

     But didn’t we all think Brian had destroyed those tapes?  Sure we did.  He said so, didn’t he?  A million times.

     He must have been putting us on, though.  All the tapes have now been found, pieced together, new vocals overdubbed where necessary, and the whole album will be out [unreadable…I’m guessing ‘before’] long.

     The complete list of tracks is: “The Child Is Father To The Man”, “Surf’s Up”, “Sunshine”, “The Old Master Painter”, “Barnyard”, “Cabin-essence” (incorporating “Iron Horse”), “Mrs. O’Leary’s Cow”, “I Love To Say Dada” (incorporating “Cool Cool Water”), and the different original versions of “Vege-tables”, “Wind Chimes”, and “Wonderful”.  Most of them seem to come under the overall sub-title of “Heroes and Villains”.

     Carl Wilson tells a story about the day he was working on the tape of “Master Painter”.  “Somebody put the tape out with the garbage, by mistake.  It got shredded, into a thousand pieces.  I had to go out, find it, and put it back together again.  It’s okay now, but we’ve made safety copies of everything, just in case.  Those old things were done on four-track tape, and they’re very fragile.”

     Carl is making his revelations by candlelight in a conference room at London’s Royal Garden Hotel.

I don't have time to do the rest of the article.  It goes on talking about Blondie and Ricky joining the group, the resolution of the legal battle with Capitol, the new album (Carl and the Passions - So Tough), and upcoming shows.

I always forget about the '72 SMiLE.  Do we know definitively, if it was that close, why it didn't happen?

Alan, Joel, and LostArt, your posts add a lot to the discussion.  Thanks for posting!

 This is not verified fact, but in my opinion the 1972 SMiLE was pieced together by Carl Wilson. An active Brian Wilson was essential for any reconstruction. That is why SMiLE '72 was never fully realized. I'm open to corrections.  8)

 A real album to be sure, but it will always seem a bit tenuous in comparison with its predecessor and successor.

According to Steve Desper, he & Carl got the tapes from the archives, listened to them, copied them... and put them straight back on the racks. That's my recall, hopefully SWD will amplify or correct.