Brian's codas

[AndrewHickey]

I was listening to Sgt Pepper's today and realized McCartney also has a mini-coda at the end of Getting Better and a more obvious one at the end of Rita Meter Maid. Someday I should listen to all of Paul's songs prior to the Pet Sounds release and see if he added any notable tags (can't think of any offhand). If not, that adds to the evidence he was copying Brian, at least a bit.

Drive My Car? Paperback Writer was recorded before Pet Sounds was released.

Paperback Writer is a definite case of Paul copying Brian though -- specifically it seems to have been inspired by Sloop John B, which did come out before Paperback Writer was recorded.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I was listening to Sgt Pepper's today and realized McCartney also has a mini-coda at the end of Getting Better and a more obvious one at the end of Rita Meter Maid. Someday I should listen to all of Paul's songs prior to the Pet Sounds release and see if he added any notable tags (can't think of any offhand). If not, that adds to the evidence he was copying Brian, at least a bit.

Drive My Car? Paperback Writer was recorded before Pet Sounds was released.

Paperback Writer is a definite case of Paul copying Brian though -- specifically it seems to have been inspired by Sloop John B, which did come out before Paperback Writer was recorded.

Yes, that's true. I remember reading a quote from Paul from around that time (haven't seen it since, so I can't verify it) where he said that the stuff they were working on was like The Beach Boys meets The Who.

[SMiLE-addict]

Drive My Car?

Yeah, a little bit I suppose. Not a really strong coda, but there nonetheless. Still not nearly the same kind of coda as on Rita Meter Maid, though.

EDIT: Just checked it out, Rita's coda is a full half-minute. Off the top of my head that's gotta be Paul's most prominent one by that date.

[SMiLE-addict]

As for Paperback Writer, it doesn't sound to me like he was trying to make a distinctive coda (Rita definitely is). It's more along the lines of a longer fade-out. Though I suppose we could start quibbling over definitions and such on that one.

Most of Brian's codas under discussion here were (at least a bit) more than elongated fade-outs IMO.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Explain to me the difference between God Only Knows and Paperback Writer.

[SMiLE-addict]

Good question. God Only Knows has a bit more "oomph." Technical term, y'know. I suppose the phrases (and their arrangement) in the tag to GOK are less like the corresponding phrases in the rest of the song than the comparable phrases in the tag in PW are in the rest of PW. The tag to PW is somewhat similar to the phrases in the intro to the song (and a couple other spots); on the other hand, there is no other fugue elsewhere in GOK. So in that sense, the tag to GOK is "more different" from the rest of the song than the tag in PW is to the rest of *that* song.

Hope that made sense.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Good question. God Only Knows has a bit more "oomph." Technical term, y'know. I suppose the phrases (and their arrangement) in the tag to GOK are less like the corresponding phrases in the rest of the song than the comparable phrases in the tag in PW are in the rest of PW. The tag to PW is somewhat similar to the phrases in the intro to the song (and a couple other spots); on the other hand, there is no other fugue elsewhere in GOK. So in that sense, the tag to GOK is "more different" from the rest of the song than the tag in PW is to the rest of *that* song.

Hope that made sense.

It makes sense but while the end of Paperback Writer is similar to the phrases in the intro, it is nevertheless different. Meanwhile, the end to God Only Knows, in part, repeats the exact phrase that is at the end of each verse. Personally, I think God Only Knows has one of the greatest endings to any pop song, yet while I think its coda is better, I don't think it's any more of a coda than the one at the end of PW. Anyone can play this game though - I remember playing the ending of GOK to a friend, telling him how great it was and it his reaction was: "A fade out?"

And for what its worth, I do not hear the end of Lovely Rita as being the kind of coda that you seem to suggest it is. It sounds like an extended jam that they just decided to keep because it was in keeping with the spirit of the Sgt. Pepper atmosphere.

[SMiLE-addict]

2 things that just occurred to me:

1. The coda for Paperback Writer is probably more akin to the coda of California Girls than God Only Knows. So if Paul was borrowing coda ideas from Brian on that song, it obviously wasn't from God Only Knows, but *maybe* it could have been from California Girls.
2. That said, it just occurred to me that Michelle has a VERY strong coda. Paul even gears the listener up for it when he sings, "And I will say the only words I know, that you'll understand, my Michelle" ---> go to (instrumental) coda. So that kills my idea that Paul got the idea of writing elaborate codas on Sgt Pepper from Pet Sounds, since he had already done (at least) one pretty elaborate one beforehand.

I still think there's the possibility he might have gotten the idea for Michelle's coda from Brian's other, earlier codas, but I can't think offhand what song(s) that might have been. Sometimes when I listen to Rubber Soul there seems to be some borrowing from the B-side of Today!, but that's another topic.

[SMiLE-addict]

And for what its worth, I do not hear the end of Lovely Rita as being the kind of coda that you seem to suggest it is. It sounds like an extended jam that they just decided to keep because it was in keeping with the spirit of the Sgt. Pepper atmosphere.

Perhaps. To me it seems like an early version of the coda on Hello Goodbye (kinda sorta). I guess it depends on your perspective.

What we *really* need is for Paul McCartney to show up here and straighten this all out for us!

[metal flake paint]

I think what sets the GOK coda apart from the rest of the song is the "wacky" drumming, as Danny Hutton puts it, in "Brian Wilson - Songwriter 1962-1969."

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I still think there's the possibility he might have gotten the idea for Michelle's coda from Brian's other, earlier codas, but I can't think offhand what song(s) that might have been. Sometimes when I listen to Rubber Soul there seems to be some borrowing from the B-side of Today!, but that's another topic.

Before 1966, there is way more of a chance that Paul is being influenced by soul music and Bob Dylan than he is The Beach Boys.

[SMiLE-addict]

^
You're probably right. But it's nice to think he was stealing stuff from Brian anyway.

The Wiki article for "Girl" has a quote by Paul saying the idea for some of the background harmonies came from a BB song, though it's not clear which song Paul is referring to.

[LetHimRun]

^
You're probably right. But it's nice to think he was stealing stuff from Brian anyway.

The Wiki article for "Girl" has a quote by Paul saying the idea for some of the background harmonies came from a BB song, though it's not clear which song Paul is referring to.

No sense in presenting quotes from Paul, rocknroll will just shoot them down. The BBs were obviously so far beneath The Beatles, that the notion that a BB song, idea, melody, arrangement, etc could compare is laughable.

He can't stand the thought of it actually happening.

At least, that's how his attitude keeps being presented.

[Jay]

My all time favortite coda is on A Day In The Life of A Tree. It's a teaser and should last 7 minutes longer.  

I'm not ashamed to admit that the first time I listened to A Day In The Life Of A Tree with headphones on, I broke down and cried like a baby.

[Amazing Larry]

My all time favortite coda is on A Day In The Life of A Tree. It's a teaser and should last 7 minutes longer.  

I'm not ashamed to admit that the first time I listened to A Day In The Life Of A Tree with headphones on, I broke down and cried like a baby.

So did I, man. So did I...

[Mr. Cohen]

"I'd Love Just Once to See You" has a great, subtle tag, and the little lyrical punchline is fun.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

^
You're probably right. But it's nice to think he was stealing stuff from Brian anyway.

The Wiki article for "Girl" has a quote by Paul saying the idea for some of the background harmonies came from a BB song, though it's not clear which song Paul is referring to.

No sense in presenting quotes from Paul, rocknroll will just shoot them down. The BBs were obviously so far beneath The Beatles, that the notion that a BB song, idea, melody, arrangement, etc could compare is laughable.

He can't stand the thought of it actually happening.

At least, that's how his attitude keeps being presented.

Is it? Then explain this thread:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,12007.msg239375.html#msg239375

[Chocolate Shake Man]

But back to reality, I think the song Paul was referring to in that quote was probably "You're So Good To Me." In The Beatles Anthology when Paul, George, and Ringo are sitting around the kitchen table, Paul uses that same background when he is illustrating The Beach Boys sound that he was into.

[SMiLE-addict]

But back to reality, I think the song Paul was referring to in that quote was probably "You're So Good To Me." In The Beatles Anthology when Paul, George, and Ringo are sitting around the kitchen table, Paul uses that same background when he is illustrating The Beach Boys sound that he was into.

That sounds about right! Thanks, I probably wouldn't have thought of that myself. Had been wondering what song that might have been for a couple weeks now.

[Jay]

My all time favortite coda is on A Day In The Life of A Tree. It's a teaser and should last 7 minutes longer.  

I'm not ashamed to admit that the first time I listened to A Day In The Life Of A Tree with headphones on, I broke down and cried like a baby.

So did I, man. So did I...

Hearing Van Dyke sing the "trees like me weren't meant to live", and Al doing that really high"There's nothing left for meeeee"...wow. 

[Jukka]

The last three tracks on Surf's Up album are like a trilogy of all time greatest codas, each song's coda topping the last one. What a way to end an album.

[LetHimRun]

^
You're probably right. But it's nice to think he was stealing stuff from Brian anyway.

The Wiki article for "Girl" has a quote by Paul saying the idea for some of the background harmonies came from a BB song, though it's not clear which song Paul is referring to.

No sense in presenting quotes from Paul, rocknroll will just shoot them down. The BBs were obviously so far beneath The Beatles, that the notion that a BB song, idea, melody, arrangement, etc could compare is laughable.

He can't stand the thought of it actually happening.

At least, that's how his attitude keeps being presented.

Is it? Then explain this thread:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,12007.msg239375.html#msg239375

LOL You argue for a sequence of dogs barking. Wow, don't try so hard to hand out compliments.

Reality is, you're contrary. Shouldn't bother you when others take the same stance.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

^
You're probably right. But it's nice to think he was stealing stuff from Brian anyway.

The Wiki article for "Girl" has a quote by Paul saying the idea for some of the background harmonies came from a BB song, though it's not clear which song Paul is referring to.

No sense in presenting quotes from Paul, rocknroll will just shoot them down. The BBs were obviously so far beneath The Beatles, that the notion that a BB song, idea, melody, arrangement, etc could compare is laughable.

He can't stand the thought of it actually happening.

At least, that's how his attitude keeps being presented.

Is it? Then explain this thread:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,12007.msg239375.html#msg239375

LOL You argue for a sequence of dogs barking. Wow, don't try so hard to hand out compliments.

Reality is, you're contrary. Shouldn't bother you when others take the same stance.

Again, let's get back to reality. You suggested in the above quoted post that I believed that "the notion that a BB song, idea, melody, arrangement, etc could compare" to a Beatles song was "laughable" and that I couldn't "stand the thought of it actually happening."

The post that I drew you attention to showed you, in fact, that that is obviously not the case and that, in fact, it's quite obvious by that thread that I not only have no problem suggesting that The Beatles were influenced by The Beach Boys but will also defend that stance when others challenge it. So you are exactly 100% wrong and your mud slinging amounts to nothing other than a groundless assumption that flies in the face of factual evidence.

What's funny, however, is that even this example of me suggesting that The Beatles were influenced by The Beach Boys is not good enough for you. And herein lies the problem, as I see it. What are you actually critiquing is the fact that I'm not a fanatic who because of his all-encompassing obsession absolutely must see the source of my fanaticism as the absolute best and first in every situation always, which is why, of course, people so frequently want to suggest that The Beatles took something from The Beach Boys and not that, say, The Byrds took something from The Beach Boys. Both are, of course, equally possible, but The Byrds aren't considered the best band and so therefore to try and prove that they took something from The Beach Boys would ultimately be a fruitless endeavour in the real project of trying to get everyone to believe that The Beach Boys are better than the best band. Let me apologize then for not willing to be a fanatic - for saying, maybe The Beatles came up with a coda from somewhere other than The Beach Boys (I know! How ridiculous!). And finally, I'm sorry that I am not a fanatic who expects everyone else to meet the same fantatical standards that I have or else they shall be the recipient of groundless mud slinging. And, finally, I'm sorry that I refuse to sit with you at the children's table.

[BergenWhitesMoustache]

Explain to me the difference between God Only Knows and Paperback Writer.

God only Knows is one of the best songs ever, and Paperback Writer is a cheesy throwaway that would have been ignored if it were released by an unknown band? 

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Explain to me the difference between God Only Knows and Paperback Writer.

God only Knows is one of the best songs ever, and Paperback Writer is a cheesy throwaway that would have been ignored if it were released by an unknown band?