Why do you hate Mike Love?

[elnombre]

Guitarfool's long post up there was a bit of an eye-opener, I have to say! The Baywatch thing being a while after SIP tanked I think I was vaguely aware of but I hadn't realised it was a matter of years, or that the advance rumour was of a new (or refurbished) Brian and Mike song for the appearance. That must have been an absolute kick in the nuts for any fan. Any more info on the reasoning?

[SurfRiderHawaii]

Looks like we all agree Mike's HoF speech is being spun but disagree about which way by who.

Umm, no Cam. We all agree it was a drunken embarrassment except you. To you, because it's Mike no doubt, it was some iconic Rock n Roll moment where the brave Mike put the big bad establishment in its place. And just a few posts ago you were claiming the moment "didnt register" in the media's radar. So which is it? You cant even keep your own interpretation straight. It's all about saving face. For Mike, and yourself. 

You might want to reread because I'm not the only one.

Imo, the HoF speech was both at the same time: not on the radar of the world in general and also a Rock and Roll moment challenging and criticizing his peers.

Ok, one or maybe two other posters. Still...the point remains that any reputable source and the vast majority of fans see it as an outright embarrassment or something to laugh *at* Mike for. So...maybe there are a few outliers but the overwhelming read on it is the opposite of what you're saying. You're objectively wrong about the media ignoring it too, and we all know you'll continue to blindly defend this and everything else Mike has ever done so your opinion is hardly unbiased

Exactly! But it's the fun of the board. Cam loves Mike. He is very unwavering in that, which I sort of admire.

[rab2591]

Looks like we all agree Mike's HoF speech is being spun but disagree about which way by who.

Umm, no Cam. We all agree it was a drunken embarrassment except you. To you, because it's Mike no doubt, it was some iconic Rock n Roll moment where the brave Mike put the big bad establishment in its place. And just a few posts ago you were claiming the moment "didnt register" in the media's radar. So which is it? You cant even keep your own interpretation straight. It's all about saving face. For Mike, and yourself.  

Exactly. This HoF moment was even brought up to Mike recently and he himself admitted something like "I guess I didn't meditate that morning [chuckles]" - gee, if he was so proud of this revolutionary moment why would he allude to the idea that he lost his cool that night?

Mike apologists will stoop to any defense to try and make Mike Love look good (these are actual arguments I've heard):

Brian fans don't like SIP? Must be because Brian wasn't on it! - lest we forget many Brian fans dislike GIOMH, so obviously we don't all go gaga over everything the man does, but let's not let logic get in the way.

Mike makes a tactless comment about Brian in an interview? Not Mike's fault, the interviewer probably edited Mike's words to make the story more sensational - lest we forget, Mike gets to approve these things before they're released, right? At the very least he can call up the tabloid and demand his words be changed if he was unfairly represented.

Mike won't see the L&M film? Must be because the Landy scenes will be too emotional for him. Lest we forget he called the multiple page Evan Landy article an interesting read...ya know that article that goes into explicit detail about Brian's treatment during the Landy era. But let's not let logic get in the way.

And now the HoF speech is some incredible radical punk moment where Mike love stood up to the man. Sighhhh. You guys don't do Mike any favors whatsoever

[Ang Jones]

Looks like we all agree Mike's HoF speech is being spun but disagree about which way by who.

Umm, no Cam. We all agree it was a drunken embarrassment except you. To you, because it's Mike no doubt, it was some iconic Rock n Roll moment where the brave Mike put the big bad establishment in its place. And just a few posts ago you were claiming the moment "didnt register" in the media's radar. So which is it? You cant even keep your own interpretation straight. It's all about saving face. For Mike, and yourself.  

Exactly. This HoF moment was even brought up to Mike recently and he himself admitted something like "I guess I didn't meditate that morning [chuckles]" - gee, if he was so proud of this revolutionary moment why would he allude to the idea that he lost his cool that night?

Mike apologists will stoop to any defense to try and make Mike Love look good (these are actual arguments I've heard):

Brian fans don't like SIP? Must be because Brian wasn't on it! - lest we forget many Brian fans dislike GIOMH, so obviously we don't all go gaga over everything the man does, but let's not let logic get in the way.

Mike makes a tactless comment about Brian in an interview? Not Mike's fault, the interviewer probably edited Mike's words to make the story more sensational - lest we forget, Mike gets to approve these things before they're released, right? At the very least he can call up the tabloid and demand his words be changed if he was unfairly represented.

Mike won't see the L&M film? Must be because the Landy scenes will be too emotional for him. Lest we forget he called the multiple page Evan Landy article an interesting read...ya know that article that goes into explicit detail about Brian's treatment during the Landy era. But let's not let logic get in the way.

And now the HoF speech is some incredible radical punk moment where Mike love stood up to the man. Sighhhh. You guys don't do Mike any favors whatsoever

Well put. And as I have already written so sorry for the repetition, the way Mike behaves when Brian is giving his speech is unacceptable as well.

But it isn't just about the HOF speech. Mike once accused Brian of watering his legend. Well, Mike has continued to water his as well.

I can understand some name calling - it's a natural reaction when someone has done something annoying - but it is pretty easy to criticise Mike by relying on factual instances of his behaviour. Even when such criticisms are made, there are those who try to write them off, either by obfuscation or simple denial. Perhaps the loyalty is commendable - to me sometimes it is just inexplicable. The only thing that comes close to explaining it for me is that those who want to see all the originals back together again think this is the likeliest way to achieve it.

[filledeplage]

Ringo is great, too! But Brian definitely belongs in there.

But Brian and Ringo were already in the RnRHoF, inducted in 1988. I'm not in favor of double (triple or more in some cases) inductions to the RnRHoF -- and that includes guys named John, Paul, George, Ringo, and Eric who have already been inducted, reinducted, re-reinducted -- until AFTER the huge backlog of deserving artists who have never been inducted get in.

Once that backlog gets cleared out, then I'm in favor of Brian going in -- again -- as a producer/songwriter.

As to the original question: I do not hate Mike Love, so the question is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.

Sheesh, eight nine pages of this so far....

Yes, nine pages... And started for misleading reasons...I agree.

The last couple of days I've been looking at the HOF.  Seems the ranks are including non-rock and roll artists.  And that clogs the list.  Something weird with the ballots, seems to have happened the year the Dave Clark 5 were nominated...

There is an interesting article on 105.7 - The Hawk - Classic Rock for the Jersey Shore about the HOF.  Maybe someone can jump in who is familiar...

Having separate categories for individual inductees who have contributed heavily or who are standouts is not a problem for me. After all there are a ton of behind-the-scenes people who work in sound production or promotion who get the music to the public.  But inducting non-rockers before others who are bona fide rockers makes no sense to me.

And, I was delighted to see Ringo get in, having read how he taught himself to play, on a drum pad, while in a long-term treatment sanatorium for TB, later using a biscuit tin, and other primitive percussion stand-ins, even a garbage can lid.  That merits solo recognition.  But the band was in there, already.  

But Ringo has inspired other musicians. "Play like Ringo."  I think when you get to the point where the next generation wants to imitate your self-taught style, someone should recognize that.  I like that he played DC with The Boys after Dennis passed.  

We only have one rock HOF.  Maybe the "industry" should work on getting the right people in there. It should not be the alter ego of a magazine, as it seems to be.

If pop artists (who are not rockers) want recognition, maybe  they should find a way to honor "their own" with their own HOF.  And get the real rockers in the door...

[Mike's Beard]

Brian fans don't like SIP? Must be because Brian wasn't on it! - lest we forget many Brian fans dislike GIOMH, so obviously we don't all go gaga over everything the man does, but let's not let logic get in the way.

SIP is a middling latter day release such as KTSA, BB85 and Still Crusin' and would be viewed as such by many Brianistas if Brian had even minimal involvement in it. As he doesn't it's used as Mike bashing fodder to the extreme ("worst album ever made" and other such BS). Granted the drum sound is the worst the BBs ever used.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Some of Mike's ideas for the group through the years have been perplexing, there's no doubt about that. Mike appears to be an intelligent man; he 's articulate and sometimes sophisticated. That's why it's hard to believe he has come up with some of the stuff he has. Some are questionable, there's no doubt about it. In regard to SMiLE, while I think he had very little to do with Brian scrapping it, Mike didn't "get it" in 1966 and he still doesn't "get it". His interviews have proven that.

That being said, to blame Mike Love for the ideas coming to fruition and ultimately failing is hypocritical, a double standard, and typical of some of the posters on this board. They either refuse or are unable to not only blame Mike Love, but to spread the blame around to the other band members, which is where it belongs.

We often post about our Holy Grails in Beach Boys' fandom. It's a fun topic. We'll list Beach Boys' potato chips, badges, shorts, promo 45's, acetates, lost TV shows, and on and on. What I would like to see, or read - and have the posters on this board read - are the minutes for Beach Boys' meetings since they've been having meetings. I think they would not only be eye-opening, but prove, and more importantly DISPROVE several prevailing theories. Sure, Mike Love might've been the originator of several "ideas" for the group, but he alone could not pull them off without the blessing and formal approval of the other band members.

Mike Love couldn't just say, "Hey, let's do a tour with the Maharishi!" without approval from the group. He couldn't just say, "We're gonna get a bunch of country singers and do a duets album" without approval from the group. He couldn't arbitrarily pick a song from Summer In Paradise and go on Baywatch and perform it without approval from the group. Mike couldn't forcefully get ALL of the band members to appear on Full House and sing "Kokomo". In the 1970's and 1980's, Mike couldn't just make up the setlist without approval from Carl (and Brian and Dennis in some instances?). Mike couldn't get the permission to record Summer In Paradise the way he did without a vote from the group. Every time somebody takes a shot at The Beach Boys touring band, calling it an embarrassment and a "bar band", do they realize that Brian Wilson himself VOTED for it? I never see any outrage directed at Brian for that.  

But, Mike Love gets singled out. Mike Love is hated. And the other members walk away unscathed, virtually without any blame. It's hypocritical. It's a double standard. Ask Al about Stars And Stripes; did HE vote to allow it? Ask Brian about Summer In Paradise; did HE vote to allow it? Carl Wilson (God rest his soul); there he was on Full House. Dennis Wilson (God rest his soul), wasn't it he and James Guercio who were pushing for more oldies in the setlist? Yet for years, and especially on this board, it was Mike Love who was being BLAMED for it.

Yeah, I get it. Let's make excuses for Brian and Carl and Dennis and Al. Brian didn't care; he had other issues. Carl was burned out and tired. Dennis was an addict. Al had no power. Well, they had a vote. And I'd love to see those votes. Never will, though. So let's just blame Mike Love. Actually, let's just hate him. It's less painful. And then we won't have to make Brian, Carl, Dennis, and Al accountable.

[Mike's Beard]

This is part of one of the links Gregg posted.

His constant badgering of Brian Wilson, the band’s bassist, first lead singer, primary songwriter, visionary genius, resident virtuoso, and acid casualty drove Wilson literally crazy right around 1968. Wilson had composed and performed almost every note of the band’s critically adored, times-changing 1966 album Pet Sounds in solitude while the rest of the Beach Boys played concerts on the road; Brian worked insane hours to create an even grander follow-up, a double album called Smile, and the first fruit of those sessions, “Good Vibrations,” promised another huge sonic leap forward.

But when Mike Love came in to add his nasal baritone to the new songs he made a huge deal about the weird lyrics and browbeat Wilson — who by this time had already begun to invent Eccentric Rock Stardom as a thing by turning his thousand-square-foot living room into a sandbox with his grand piano at the center — until Wilson had a nervous breakdown, shelved the entire album, and spent the next 20 years in his bedroom a shell of his former self, never coming anywhere near the twin highs of Pet Sounds and “Good Vibrations.”

As long as there are those spewing such utter garbage as this and naive people are swallowing it hook, line and sinker then Mike will continue to get hatred his way.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Brian fans don't like SIP? Must be because Brian wasn't on it! - lest we forget many Brian fans dislike GIOMH, so obviously we don't all go gaga over everything the man does, but let's not let logic get in the way.

SIP is a middling latter day release such as KTSA, BB85 and Still Crusin' and would be viewed as such by many Brianistas if Brian had even minimal involvement in it. As he doesn't it's used as Mike bashing fodder to the extreme ("worst album ever made" and other such BS). Granted the drum sound is the worst the BBs ever used.

To be perfectly frank, I think it's more of the fact that John Stamos is on it.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Dennis Wilson (God rest his soul), wasn't it he and James Guercio who were pushing for more oldies in the setlist? Yet for years, and especially on this board, it was Mike Love who was being BLAMED for it.

Jon & Ian's excellent In Concert book also has contemporary reports of Mike having several outbursts where he was pissed that the fans kept clamoring for the oldies as opposed to the newer songs, so yeah that is indeed a good point

[Mike's Beard]

Brian fans don't like SIP? Must be because Brian wasn't on it! - lest we forget many Brian fans dislike GIOMH, so obviously we don't all go gaga over everything the man does, but let's not let logic get in the way.

SIP is a middling latter day release such as KTSA, BB85 and Still Crusin' and would be viewed as such by many Brianistas if Brian had even minimal involvement in it. As he doesn't it's used as Mike bashing fodder to the extreme ("worst album ever made" and other such BS). Granted the drum sound is the worst the BBs ever used.

To be perfectly frank, I think it's more of the fact that John Stamos is on it.

That certainly didn't do it any favours.

[SMiLE Brian]

Summary of the bile above from certain posters: It's never Mike Love's fault for anything in the BBs, he is just a hardworking touring machine while BW ruins everything with drugs and strange music made without cousin Mike.

[rab2591]

Brian fans don't like SIP? Must be because Brian wasn't on it! - lest we forget many Brian fans dislike GIOMH, so obviously we don't all go gaga over everything the man does, but let's not let logic get in the way.

SIP is a middling latter day release such as KTSA, BB85 and Still Crusin' and would be viewed as such by many Brianistas if Brian had even minimal involvement in it. As he doesn't it's used as Mike bashing fodder to the extreme ("worst album ever made" and other such BS). Granted the drum sound is the worst the BBs ever used.

Oh really? Then why the hell isn't it sold anymore, Mike's Beard? KTSA, BB85 can be found on iTunes (and until recently so could Still Cruisin). But alas, if SIP is just another "middling latter day release" why hasn't it presence been made on any digital media outlet? Because (a) it either doesn't sell or (b) the powers the be realize what an embarrassment it is the Beach Boys name. BB85 had a song that went to #26 on the charts. KTSA had a single that reached #83. Still Cruisin went gold, included a #1 hit and a #12 hit. What did SIP have? Was it's great highlight that it sold less than 10,000 copies upon it's release?

Your argument makes absolutely no sense and further illustrates my point that Mike apologists will scrape the absolute bottom of the barrel to defend the guy.

Btw, even probably the most ardent Brianista would tell you that Brian's contributions on BB85 are the weaker points on that album, and that Getcha Back (a Mike Love song) is the highlight.

[drbeachboy]

Summary of the bile above from certain posters: It's never Mike Love's fault for anything in the BBs, he is just a hardworking touring machine while BW ruins everything with drugs and strange music made without cousin Mike.

On the other hand, you make Mike the fall guy for everything. You can't complain when you do the exact opposite.

[drbeachboy]

Brian fans don't like SIP? Must be because Brian wasn't on it! - lest we forget many Brian fans dislike GIOMH, so obviously we don't all go gaga over everything the man does, but let's not let logic get in the way.

SIP is a middling latter day release such as KTSA, BB85 and Still Crusin' and would be viewed as such by many Brianistas if Brian had even minimal involvement in it. As he doesn't it's used as Mike bashing fodder to the extreme ("worst album ever made" and other such BS). Granted the drum sound is the worst the BBs ever used.

Oh really? Then why the hell isn't it sold anymore, Mike's Beard? KTSA, BB85 can be found on iTunes (and until recently so could Still Cruisin). But alas, if SIP is just another "middling latter day release" why hasn't it presence been made on any digital media outlet? Because (a) it either doesn't sell or (b) the powers the be realize what an embarrassment it is the Beach Boys name. BB85 had a song that went to #26 on the charts. KTSA had a single that reached #83. Still Cruisin went gold, included a #1 hit and a #12 hit. What did SIP have? Was it's great highlight that it sold less than 10,000 copies upon it's release?

Your argument makes absolutely no sense and further illustrates my point that Mike apologists will scrape the absolute bottom of the barrel to defend the guy.

Btw, even probably the most ardent Brianista would tell you that Brian's contributions on BB85 are the weaker points on that album, and that Getcha Back (a Mike Love song) is the highlight.

Not to get in the middle of this thing, but this was not released by a normal record company, not even by Brother Records, but rather Brother Entertainment. For all we know there may legal issues or Capitol just does not have any interest in paying to license it.

To my ears, it is a half of a good album, but if it is ever re-released, I hope Mark or whoever works on it does a remix and tone that drum machine down.

[Mike's Beard]

Oh really? Then why the hell isn't it sold anymore, Mike's Beard? KTSA, BB85 can be found on iTunes (and until recently so could Still Cruisin). But alas, if SIP is just another "middling latter day release" why hasn't it presence been made on any digital media outlet? Because (a) it either doesn't sell or (b) the powers the be realize what an embarrassment it is the Beach Boys name. BB85 had a song that went to #26 on the charts. KTSA had a single that reached #83. Still Cruisin went gold, included a #1 hit and a #12 hit. What did SIP have? Was it's great highlight that it sold less than 10,000 copies upon it's release?

So if we're going with the sales and hit singles pulled from it arguement, then by that logic NPP must be a real steaming pile of dogshit - oh wait... it is.

As for being out of print - how many years was POB unavailable? That the title track for SIP was on the MIC box must mean that it hasn't been totally disowned.

[SMiLE Brian]

Let's see Mike do better with a solo album of his own, oh wait he won't release one without rerecordings of songs by BW.

[drbeachboy]

Let's see Mike do better with a solo album of his own, oh wait he won't release one without rerecordings of songs by BW.

They ain't been too good either.

[rab2591]

Oh really? Then why the hell isn't it sold anymore, Mike's Beard? KTSA, BB85 can be found on iTunes (and until recently so could Still Cruisin). But alas, if SIP is just another "middling latter day release" why hasn't it presence been made on any digital media outlet? Because (a) it either doesn't sell or (b) the powers the be realize what an embarrassment it is the Beach Boys name. BB85 had a song that went to #26 on the charts. KTSA had a single that reached #83. Still Cruisin went gold, included a #1 hit and a #12 hit. What did SIP have? Was it's great highlight that it sold less than 10,000 copies upon it's release?

So if we're going with the sales and hit singles pulled from it arguement, then by that logic NPP must be a real steaming pile of dogshit sh*t - oh wait... it is.

I'm going by the accolades each album and their songs got. No Pier Pressure went to #28 on the Billboard 200. 'One Kind of Love' won best song at the Nashville Film Festival. Again, what did SIP get?

The dour opinion of SIP has nothing to do with fan loyalties to certain band members. It has to do with the music itself and how bad it is, that it has gotten no accolades and isn't even sold anymore proves my point correct.

[SMiLE Brian]

Exactly Rab, NPP proves BW is great artist even on a solo album. Mike couldn't even sell his practically solo album SIP under the Beach Boys name.

[Cam Mott]

The S & S album liner notes show Mike as Executive Producer but thank "Eddie Haddad for the great idea" and "Dan Wojcik for introducing us to Joe Thomas", Brian is a Producer and all of the equal partners are all over everything about it.     

Well that's him on my shitlist and no mistake...

Which "him", ol' pal?

Ah. Time for new trifocals I guess. Are there quadfocals?

[SMiLE Brian]

Remember that the C50 promo material showing all the BBs albums also left SIP out, easy to say it's been disowned as a piece of sh*t.

[Cam Mott]

How come the rest of the band made sure they got credit by appearing on the S&S and Baywatch on national TV in the video if they were not in favor?  

Doesn't Randy Bachman claim Carl was the force behind KTSA, getting Bachman to write songs with him and record demos with him and wanting Bachman to produce the BBs' album?

Carlin claims Brian was working on a Beach Boys' revision of "Dancin' The Night Away" especially for Baywatch.

[rab2591]

As for being out of print - how many years was POB unavailable? That the title track for SIP was on the MIC box must mean that it hasn't been totally disowned.

Just saw you edited this^ in to your last post...

The 1991 POB re-release became unavailable due to copyright ownership disagreements...not because it didn't sell. POB has been critically acclaimed, stayed on the billboard charts for 12 weeks at it's release, it's on MOJOs list of 'Lost Albums You Must Own'. Again, what did SIP get? Your comparisons aren't doing your argument any favors. And it's very telling how they feel about the studio album if the only inclusion on MIC from SIP material was a live version of the title track.

[Mike's Beard]

The 1991 POB re-release became unavailable due to copyright ownership disagreements...not because it didn't sell.

Which was exactly my point, that there are other reasons an album could be out of print besides poor sales.

 POB has been critically acclaimed, stayed on the billboard charts for 12 weeks at it's release, it's on MOJOs list of 'Lost Albums You Must Own'. Again, what did SIP get?

Good thing I'm not claiming SIP to be in the same league as POB then, isn't it?