Your SMiLE mix...for the fun of it

[soniclovenoize]

That was my opinion too, that such a specific term as "Four Elements Suite" coming from someone like Peter Brown with a direct personal connection to Paul (and Mal Evans who traveled to the States with Paul in April '67) wouldn't seem to be a throwaway, or something cribbed from another book or report as other books tend to do. It's too specific.

And as far as challenging Peter Brown's memory or details in general, if we fact check Brown's account of Paul and Mal's trip to the states, all of the details and dates line up quite well, including placing Paul at a Vegetables session that week in April '67. Brown when his book came out had no internet timelines, articles, or much else in the way of date-specific Smile information to consult or research. If he wrote that Paul was at a session where Brian was working on this "Elements" music, and the date lines up, that's straight from either Paul's or Mal's own account of the meeting with Brian.

Brown also mentioned one of Paul's first hang-out sessions when he arrived in the US April 3 being with members of the Jefferson Airplane, and not more than a few weeks ago or so a photo of them hanging out that day showed up on Facebook.

Well...   sh*t.   That's actually really interesting. 

Then why in god's name is Vege-Tables listed separately from The Elements on the tracklist if they were meant to be together!?!?!?!?

[stlabc]

I'll offer this as a parallel example to consider, no opinion but just food for thought:

Say the final mix and released version of Good Vibrations never happened in 1966. Brian never did that final mixdown and edit that got released.

Years later fans have access to several discs full of various sessions done for Good Vibrations. Take after take, remake after rework after experiment. Which we do have, officially and unofficially for years now.

Could anyone have come close to what ended up on that 45 single that hit #1 on the charts as Brian created it?

There would be several hours worth of various snapshots in time of the working process that could have suggested a different edit, different feel, different sequences, different this or that...and would any attempt to build as close to a recreation of Brian's concept for the song be anywhere close to what it would end up being in reality?

Take even that production flair Brian added by simply muting a lead vocal track on the words "we find" in order to boost the effect of the multiple drum tracks and bass line building to a climax before the hook...if an early rough mix of that lead vocal even existed, would any fan mixers think to mute those two words out of the track to supercharge the effect of that build-up in the instrumental tracks as Brian did? You'd lose one of the prime examples of what Brian as producer would do to make hit records come alive, those little things like a simple mute in a mixdown.

And even taking any number of the existing GV sessions available and trying to mix them into a conceptual version as it might have been in 1966...would anyone have come close?

It's a microcosm of trying to recreate a working Smile. At some point, I'd rather consider the attempts a fantasy mix and judge them on those aesthetics rather than trying to do a historically correct version of what was left unfinished and in a state of flux for decades until the two guys who came up with all that stuff decided to finish it as they chose.

My sentiments exactly as  I suggested earlier in this thread.  In fact, if you consider that it took 7 months to record GV, minus a couple of months dedicated to Pet Sounds, that is roughly 5 months which is 216,00 minutes to record a 3.5 minute song......or 61,714 minutes per 1 minute of final product.

Apply that to a 45 minute SMiLE album and it becomes reasonable to assume it would have taken over 5.28 years to complete SMiLE.....roughly late 1971.

This is just one the ideas used in my mix along with Zen Interpretation, American Suite, Elements and the overwhelming feeling that some songs, like Wonderful, were meant as metaphors.

[soniclovenoize]

Sonic, what's your take on any Water Chant/CCW and Dada connection?

Well, let's look at the history of the piece... 

It first emerged as a little instrumental pieces called "Da Da" taped on 12/22/66.  Not sure if these were simply experiments or recordings proper. 

Next they were recorded as a H&V segment called "All Day" on 1/27/67, with both Part 1 and 2 fully formed (or at least the session tapes sound like it was being arranged while it was being recorded).  Interestingly enough Brian mentions that dialog would be inserted in-between the song's pauses.  That segment was obviously not used in any iteration of H&V (we know of anyways) and the segments went unused and shelved for two months....

Brian seemingly reworked All Day into it's own song in March 1967 after moving to Bellagio Road, and conceptually the song was about a baby and titled "Love to Say Da Da (As in, what a baby would say, evidently). 

On 5/16/67 it was recorded properly as "Love to Say Da Da", recording the Part 1 (a sort of introduction) initially.  The following day, attempts were made to track a Part 2, and the infamous "wah wah" vocals were added to the Part 2.  The following day on 5/17/67, Part 2 was completely rerecorded, called out as "Part 2, Second Day" (as in the second day that Part 2 was worked on.  That was essentially the final SMiLE Recording session, as the album was scrapped in June. 

Then it gets a bit sketchy... Someone certainly feel free to jump in and correct me if I'm wrong, but the droning Water was always believed to have been recorded on 6/7/67.  But we now know that sessions was actually for Cool Cool Water, which was the next evolution of I Love to Say Da Da, and it was Water that was recorded during the late Wild Honey sessions later that fall (perhaps the session tapes were only vaguely labeled as "Water", making confusion inevitable?). 

But of course a short version of Cool Cool Water was tracked in October '67, left off of Wild Honey but heard by Lenny Waraonker who implored the BBs to remake it in 1970 for Sunflower.

So as you can see, Da Da/CooL cool water had a long gestation, with at least six known iterations (12/22/66, 1/27/67, May '67, 6/7/67, October '67 and July '70).  But it's important to know that based on the chronology, when SMiLE ceased to exist the piece was I Love to Say Da Da and it didn't become Cool Cool Water until Smiley Smile was begun.  With that in mind, I Love To Say Da Da--no matter that the arrangement sounds "watery" and that it evolved into a song about water--probably couldn't have been the Water Element. 

guitarfool prompted me to re-read the Vosse interview, which states he specifically recorded water samples that Brian was going to assemble into a piece, which was never completed...  Not sure about you guys, but that sounds like what should have been the Water Element.  Not I Love to Say Da Da, as convenient as it was. 

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

That was my opinion too, that such a specific term as "Four Elements Suite" coming from someone like Peter Brown with a direct personal connection to Paul (and Mal Evans who traveled to the States with Paul in April '67) wouldn't seem to be a throwaway, or something cribbed from another book or report as other books tend to do. It's too specific.

And as far as challenging Peter Brown's memory or details in general, if we fact check Brown's account of Paul and Mal's trip to the states, all of the details and dates line up quite well, including placing Paul at a Vegetables session that week in April '67. Brown when his book came out had no internet timelines, articles, or much else in the way of date-specific Smile information to consult or research. If he wrote that Paul was at a session where Brian was working on this "Elements" music, and the date lines up, that's straight from either Paul's or Mal's own account of the meeting with Brian.

Brown also mentioned one of Paul's first hang-out sessions when he arrived in the US April 3 being with members of the Jefferson Airplane, and not more than a few weeks ago or so a photo of them hanging out that day showed up on Facebook.

Well...   sh*t.   That's actually really interesting. 

Then why in god's name is Vege-Tables listed separately from The Elements on the tracklist if they were meant to be together!?!?!?!?

I used to think of Veggies separately for that very reason. After debating the point with HolyBee, Im thinking now that it started off as part of it, but then grew into its own song. Like once Fire happened and all that, Brian mustve decided hed sort out the elements trouble later and do something new with it, but still used Veggies as a song.

[Sheriff John Stone]

When it's broken down to something other than the "rebuilding after the fire" notion of what the woodworking sounds were supposed to be, it actually makes very basic, common sense that you would probably hear hammering and sawing and building on an active farm, whether they're either building or repairing a fence, a chicken coup, the barn itself...any number of things. Sometimes the most simple possibility is actually the best possibility. The fact that some of these little sections got shuffled around so much definitely doesn't make it easier to figure out, which is why having Vosse's firsthand account (since he was *there* as the whole thing first started developing) is so valuable.

Agreed. Its frustrating how Priore, fan speculation, the shoehorning of Water into Dada and H&V intro into Fire that Sheriff brought up, and BWPS' new third movement have muddied the waters so to speak. Not that there's anything wrong with alternate ideas, but it just feels like making the historical SMiLE is that much harder because of all the "repeated so much its taken as fact" misinformation, and the PR of BWPS being the finished SMiLE (which it is...just not finished as it would have been, is all Im saying.)

I just wanted to reiterate my point/wish one more time before I put it to bed - I promise.

Yes, absolutely the various articles circa 1966 and 1967 are invaluable, but they only take us so far and not all the way there. Michael Vosse mentioned that the wood sawing and hammering were part of Brian's "barnyard" and "farm concept". I appreciate him saying that, but, we kind of assumed that; that's not in question. The question remains, what was Brian going to do with these sound effects after he recorded them? On BWPS (though I put little creedence in the BWPS sequence; it's a combination of fan mixes), "Workshop" isn't even near "Barnyard" or "The Old Master Painter". What was Brian's original intention(s)? That's what I want to know.

You can literally make a multiple choice question out of it:

a) the sound effects were the building of the home of the range
b) the sound effects were the building of the cart to cart off and sell the vegetables
c) the sound effects were the re-building of the barn after the fire
d) the sound effects were the re-building of a broken heart (not sure where that one came from)
e) the sound effects were to be incorporated into a Barnyard Suite
f) Brian just thought it would be cool to record barnyard/farm sound effects not to be incorporated anywhere in particular
g) all of the above at some particular moment in the SMiLE timeline

That's why it is necessary to dig deeper and follow up on basic questions/answers. And the only way to do that is an in depth Q & A with the parties involved. Yes, I'm glad we have the magazine articles, but we need more than that!

I welcome more fan mixes if anybody would like to show their sequencing. I especially like to see what opening and closing tracks people are using, where they are placing "Good Vibrations", and if they are splitting up "Heroes And Villains" into Part 1 and Part 2 and incorporating BOTH parts.

[The_Holy_Bee]

I welcome more fan mixes if anybody would like to show their sequencing. I especially like to see what opening and closing tracks people are using, where they are placing "Good Vibrations", and if they are splitting up "Heroes And Villains" into Part 1 and Part 2 and incorporating BOTH parts.

Kinda, on the latter point. I operate on the basis (and I think Humble Harv/the transcription of the Durrie Parks acetates provide sufficient grounds for it) that H&V began as a much less unified song than it became in '67, and that "I'm in Great Shape" as given by the tracklist is shorthand for a medley of the excised sections. Mine, and this is just a matter of personal preference, goes "I Wanna Be Around", then about thirty seconds of "Workshop" (an inclusion based on Vosse's recollections as well as the contentious (Great Shape) session notation), then IIGS - the piano part of the first leads quite nicely into the intro of the other - and finally "Barnyard" out of the tape explosion to fade (as we know this and IIGS were together in the Nov "H&V" demo).

It functions, then, as both a standalone track named "I'm in Great Shape" and essentially an "H&V" Part Two - and, interestingly enough, a "Barnyard suite... four short pieces, we never finished that." I know Soniclovenoise has taken a similar approach, though the sequencing is a little different.

EDIT, ADDITIONAL: Mujan has suggested that "Do a Lot" (the Heroes version) could also be a contender for IIGS. It's not present in my mix because a) I tried to primarily use pieces actually tracked in '66 but mainly b) because I wasn't able to satisfyingly fit into the song. I really dig the notion though.

[Jason Penick]

Re-reading the Vosse article was enlightening for me on a number of levels. For those people interested in creating a "vintage" 1966 Smile, there's a number of clues that he drops:


Surf's Up -- "It was going to kind of close the album, and then after it was over they were going to a sort of choral, a-men thing".

Wind Chimes -- A dub existed at one point featuring a break with voices as percussive elements.

Barnyard/ Sunshine/ Workshop -- As discussed.

Cabin Essence -- Originally two songs, "Cabin Essence" (sung by Dennis) and "Who Ran the Iron Horse" (including "Grand Coulee" tag). "Who Ran the Iron Horse" supposedly attempted to be merged with "Bicycle Rider" at one point.


The "Who Ran the Iron Horse" comments got me thinking of the chronology Vosse presents. He mentions being at a dinner party at Brian's where he heard "Good Vibrations" prior to its release, and where Brian and Van tried to integrate "Horse" with "Bicycle Rider". Likely this is the same party Jules Siegel described as Brian's "first hip social event".

However, I don't think this is what we're hearing on the infamous "Brian's Smile Party" session, because engineer Ralph Valentin was also present for that, and you can hear Brian speaking through what sounds like a talkback mic later in the tape, which leads me to believe that they're in a recording studio and not Brian's house. This recording has been tentatively dated from October 18, and Vosse as I mentioned states the dinner party was prior to "Good Vibrations" being released, which occurred on October 10 if Wikipedia can be believed.

Yet the part that doesn't make sense to me is that, according to the established studio chronology, "Cabin Essence" in its instrumental entirety seems to have been tracked at the same session on October 3, which casts aspersions on Vosse's recollection, especially since "Bicycle Rider" was apparently not tracked until October 18 as part four of "Worms", after "Good Vibrations" was already released, and the same day as the "Smile Party". Indeed, later in the "Party" tape you can hear Brian cueing up "Bicycle Rider" over and over.

All of which leads me to three possible answers: Either my session dates are incorrect, or there are earlier versions of "Who Ran the Iron Horse" and "Bicycle Rider" that haven't emerged, or Vosse is conflating the two get-togethers.

Anybody want to help me get to the bottom of this?

[The_Holy_Bee]

Then why in god's name is Vege-Tables listed separately from The Elements on the tracklist if they were meant to be together!?!?!?!?

I actually thought you/we stumbled on a likely explanation for this earlier in the thread: It's mid-Dec 1966, Capitol are still looking at a Jan release for the album, and covers need to be printed. Diane/Carl/A. N. Other pin Brian down and get a list of titles for the slick, making sure to inform Capitol that final sequencing is still being decided ("see label" etc). The first few songs ("H&V" aside, but at this point in December - Anderle/Williams - it's set to be the single) are reasonably complete, with rough assemblies completed and in some cases, full vocals added. There are problems with the latter five or so, however - not least the fact that following the "Fire" debacle, Brian has "basically destroyed The Elements" (Anderle). No one's willing to completely scrap the idea of an Elements track/sequence, however - perhaps Brian is still thinking about reconceiving the selection ("a candle instead of a scary fire like that") or the writer hopes he won't end up giving up on a promising musical direction - so it goes on as one vague heading, open to interpretation and amendment.

Vega-Tables goes on too, because the ultimate fate of "The Elements" is still to be decided, as the only other part of the sequence to actually have been recorded - or, at least, recorded with the full involvement and understanding of the rest of the Beach Boys. Perhaps the assumption, as mooted above, is worse-come-to-worst, Vega-Tables can simply follow a "three element" medley under the simple title "The Elements". This way, when things are beginning to really get messy, a conventional twelve-song listing can be printed without having to pin Brian down too closely on what exactly some of these selections are going to be.

As it happens, I think the same can apply to "I'm in Great Shape": it's December, Brian is being strongly encouraged (see the Anderle/William exchange I quoted in above post) to make H&V the 45. As a result the original, rollicking "three minute comedy" version is having to be reconfigured into a more conventional pop tune - you know, one with repeated verse chords and choruses and so on. But there's a bunch of these fun little sections, originally planned/recorded for "H&V", which - like "Vega-Tables" - it seems a pity to scrap just because the track that originally housed them is being reconceived. So Brian is pushed for a "cover-all" heading to potentially include all/some of them, and the lyric "I'm in Great Shape" comes to mind.


All supposition, of course, but I don't think a totally implausible interpretation of the facts as we have 'em. Any thoughts?

[The_Holy_Bee]

Surf's Up -- "It was going to kind of close the album, and then after it was over they were going to a sort of choral, a-men thing".

Wind Chimes -- A dub existed at one point featuring a break with voices as percussive elements.

Yup, I took particular note of these comments too. My mix has a little vocal breakdown in Wind Chimes just before the booming chorus comes in (I believe I took it from SOT and mixed it down to mono - the stereo effect was really cool, actually) which has this kind of feel. And, rather perversely, I follow Surf's Up (my final full track) with "Prayer" - realising, of course, the "intro to the album" comment on the session tapes argues against this.

I always liked the spacey kettle drumming of DYLW kicking off this eccentric and innovative album anyway.

[The_Holy_Bee]

All of which leads me to three possible answers: Either my session dates are incorrect, or there are earlier versions of "Who Ran the Iron Horse" and "Bicycle Rider" that haven't emerged, or Vosse is conflating the two get-togethers.

I think Vosse must be conflating two separate occasions, yeah. His interview was in '69, so between 18 months and 2 years after he departed the BR organisation. Which doesn't mean the bulk of his recollections are necessarily inaccurate, of course - just saying that if you asked me to cleanly separate out the events of two similar functions at the same mate's place which occurred between August and October 2013, I'd have some trouble doing so.

As to the Bicycle Rider/"Home on the Range" mash-up, I see no reason to doubt Vosse that this did indeed happen at some point - I can, for instance, distinctly recall my mate Matt's ipod on shuffle seguing directly from Dylan's "Like a Rolling Stone" to the rather tedious John Mayer cover while we sat on the deck drinking red wine, but whether or not that occurred at his birthday function in November '13 or the drinks we had in September after I finished a pretty punishing week of jury duty is now lost to the ether.

[Jason Penick]

Surf's Up -- "It was going to kind of close the album, and then after it was over they were going to a sort of choral, a-men thing".

Wind Chimes -- A dub existed at one point featuring a break with voices as percussive elements.

Yup, I took particular note of these comments too. My mix has a little vocal breakdown in Wind Chimes just before the booming chorus comes in (I believe I took it from SOT and mixed it down to mono - the stereo effect was really cool, actually) which has this kind of feel. And, rather perversely, I follow Surf's Up (my final full track) with "Prayer" - realising, of course, the "intro to the album" comment on the session tapes argues against this.

I always liked the spacey kettle drumming of DYLW kicking off this eccentric and innovative album anyway.

I enjoy Worms as a starting track too. I think it would have been a bold move to open the album that way.

Could it be possible that that "Prayer" would have both opened the album and closed it with the final "ahhh", similar to BWPS? I seem to remember an authentic mix existing that eliminates that final part.

[Jason Penick]

I think Vosse must be conflating two separate occasions, yeah. His interview was in '69, so between 18 months and 2 years after he departed the BR organisation. Which doesn't mean the bulk of his recollections are necessarily inaccurate, of course - just saying that if you asked me to cleanly separate out the events of two similar functions at the same mate's place which occurred between August and October 2013, I'd have some trouble doing so.

As to the Bicycle Rider/"Home on the Range" mash-up, I see no reason to doubt Vosse that this did indeed happen at some point - I can, for instance, distinctly recall my mate Matt's ipod on shuffle seguing directly from Dylan's "Like a Rolling Stone" to the rather tedious John Mayer cover while we sat on the deck drinking red wine, but whether or not that occurred at his birthday function in November '13 or the drinks we had in September after I finished a pretty punishing week of jury duty is now lost to the ether.

That's exactly my thoughts as well. I just wanted to be certain that I had all the session info accurate before I made any bold pronouncements.

[The_Holy_Bee]

Could it be possible that that "Prayer" would have both opened the album and closed it with the final "ahhh", similar to BWPS? I seem to remember an authentic mix existing that eliminates that final part.

Absolutely it could. goshdarn, having just felt my "'66 mix" was complete - and, in fact, having full CD cases/covers and discs printed up - now I'm going to have to go back to Audacity and reconfigure.

Don't get me wrong, though - it's brilliant and simple and plausible observations like that which mean I'm digging this thread so much.

[Jason Penick]

guitarfool prompted me to re-read the Vosse interview, which states he specifically recorded water samples that Brian was going to assemble into a piece, which was never completed...  Not sure about you guys, but that sounds like what should have been the Water Element.  Not I Love to Say Da Da, as convenient as it was.  

I don't know if this is news to anybody, in fact I'm guessing it isn't based on the time you all have put in studying this stuff, but there appears to be some aural evidence of this water symphony, vis a vis the November 4th track titled "Chewing Terry's/ Water Hose/ Tea Pot". Re-reading the Vosse article prompted me to give it a spin last night, and you can clearly hear Brian mashing up the sounds of the hose and tea pot in an attempt to create something musical.

[Jason Penick]

Could it be possible that that "Prayer" would have both opened the album and closed it with the final "ahhh", similar to BWPS? I seem to remember an authentic mix existing that eliminates that final part.

Absolutely it could. goshdarn, having just felt my "'66 mix" was complete - and, in fact, having full CD cases/covers and discs printed up - now I'm going to have to go back to Audacity and reconfigure.

Don't get me wrong, though - it's brilliant and simple and plausible observations like that which mean I'm digging this thread so much.

No problem, I'm just spitballing here like everybody else. That's the fun of the whole enterprise.

Definitely post us a link to your '66 mix once you've finalized it!

[Sheriff John Stone]

Could it be possible that that "Prayer" would have both opened the album and closed it with the final "ahhh", similar to BWPS? I seem to remember an authentic mix existing that eliminates that final part.

Absolutely it could. goshdarn, having just felt my "'66 mix" was complete - and, in fact, having full CD cases/covers and discs printed up - now I'm going to have to go back to Audacity and reconfigure.

Don't get me wrong, though - it's brilliant and simple and plausible observations like that which mean I'm digging this thread so much.

No problem, I'm just spitballing here like everybody else. That's the fun of the whole enterprise.

Definitely post us a link to your '66 mix once you've finalized it!

Jason, you said above, "closed it with the final "ahhh, similar to BWPS"....well, that's a part of the BWPS mix that I like a lot, and came to use, in a way.

Maybe I was influenced (prejudiced?) by the 20/20 album placement of "Our Prayer" (yes, I know it has absolutely nothing to do with the SMiLE sequencing), but then BWPS did the same thing, as you say, in a way. So I have ended my mix for a long time:

- Our Prayer
- Surf's Up

I never bought "Our Prayer" as the opening track (but that's for later discussion I'm sure), and thought it was perfect near the end (a la BWPS, except the WHOLE prayer) and then ending with the masterpiece, "Surf's Up" (another topic for later).

[The_Holy_Bee]

I don't know if this is news to anybody, in fact I'm guessing it isn't based on the time you all have put in studying this stuff, but there appears to be some aural evidence of this water symphony, vis a vis the November 4th track titled "Chewing Terry's/ Water Hose/ Tea Pot". Re-reading the Vosse article prompted me to give it a spin last night, and you can clearly hear Brian mashing up the sounds of the hose and tea pot in an attempt to create something musical.

Again, thanks. (I'm just about to head out, so you can all feel relieved this will be my last effusive post for a while.) I was just thinking last night that "we had some idea of what water was going to be" (Anderle) and Vosse's comments about recording different water sounds might be connected. This bit of tape, which I had completely forgotten ever hearing, might be another clue as to the original (?) plan for "The Elements".

Conjecture: Fire (instrumental, some "crackling" FX)/Water (actual water sounds blended and cut up to create something akin to "music concrete")/Air ("a piano piece" - the much debated bio)/Earth (stripped down, largely vocal effort to close the sequence). Perhaps linked, as Mujan suggests, with "Psycodelic Sounds"-style chanting/vocal effects?

What's nice about this notion is we have two innovative instrumental pieces that nonetheless use conventional instrumentation, expansively and minimally arranged ("Fire" and "Air" respectively) interspersed with two equally avant garde sections, using non-traditional sounds ("Water") and a stripped down fragment employing SMiLE's much-referenced "humour" aspect ("Cornucopia" Veggies). Plus, the Boys being all involved in the last part means "The Elements" can be truthfully described as a Beach Boys track and not essentially a BW solo instrumental effort.

This is probably both a) total reaching and b) madness, but something about the idea tickles me regardless.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Conjecture: Fire (instrumental, some "crackling" FX)/Water (actual water sounds blended and cut up to create something akin to "music concrete")/Air ("a piano piece" - the much debated bio)/Earth (stripped down, largely vocal effort to close the sequence). Perhaps linked, as Mujan suggests, with "Psycodelic Sounds"-style chanting/vocal effects?

What's nice about this notion is we have two innovative instrumental pieces that nonetheless use conventional instrumentation, expansively and minimally arranged ("Fire" and "Air" respectively) interspersed with two equally avant garde sections, using non-traditional sounds ("Water") and a stripped down fragment employing SMiLE's much-referenced "humour" aspect ("Cornucopia" Veggies). Plus, the Boys being all involved in the last part means "The Elements" can be truthfully described as a Beach Boys track and not essentially a BW solo instrumental effort.

Somebody has to mix this^! Please.

[Jason Penick]

Again, thanks. (I'm just about to head out, so you can all feel relieved this will be my last effusive post for a while.) I was just thinking last night that "we had some idea of what water was going to be" (Anderle) and Vosse's comments about recording different water sounds might be connected. This bit of tape, which I had completely forgotten ever hearing, might be another clue as to the original (?) plan for "The Elements".

Conjecture: Fire (instrumental, some "crackling" FX)/Water (actual water sounds blended and cut up to create something akin to "music concrete")/Air ("a piano piece" - the much debated bio)/Earth (stripped down, largely vocal effort to close the sequence). Perhaps linked, as Mujan suggests, with "Psycodelic Sounds"-style chanting/vocal effects?

What's nice about this notion is we have two innovative instrumental pieces that nonetheless use conventional instrumentation, expansively and minimally arranged ("Fire" and "Air" respectively) interspersed with two equally avant garde sections, using non-traditional sounds ("Water") and a stripped down fragment employing SMiLE's much-referenced "humour" aspect ("Cornucopia" Veggies). Plus, the Boys being all involved in the last part means "The Elements" can be truthfully described as a Beach Boys track and not essentially a BW solo instrumental effort.

This is probably both a) total reaching and b) madness, but something about the idea tickles me regardless.

Makes sense to me. I still tend to think "Dada" might have been water based on its ultimate manifestation on Sunflower and ultimately BWPS, but the "all water" track makes for a tempting alternative. Vosse actually muddies the waters somewhat by first stating Brian wants to record a water album, but then later has him talking about an individual track composed of water sounds.

Just for the record, does anyone know where the "Dada" = song about a baby quote comes from?

[Jason Penick]

Somebody has to mix this^! Please.

Sadly it can't be done, unless "Air" were to somehow materialize. I could make a quick mix using something in its place, such as the "whispering winds" section from "Holidays".

[Sheriff John Stone]

Somebody has to mix this^! Please.

Sadly it can't be done, unless "Air" were to somehow materialize. I could make a quick mix using something in its place, such as the "whispering winds" section from "Holidays".

Yeah, the "whispering winds" section would be fine, or if anybody has any other suggestions of "windy" piano pieces floating around, just for the fun of it...

[guitarfool2002]

When the "psychodelic sounds" chanting session happened, Brian and those with him already knew what the "fire" element was musically. Consider that once Brian got away from the humor skits, the falling into the microphone and Good Humor and falling into the piano comedy, he focused the assembled chanters into what to my ears has always sounded like three elements.

"I got a big bag of vegetables, wheres my beets and carrots..." - Vegetables grow from...The Earth.

"Underwater, swim fishy, etc" - Fish, underwater...Water.

"Breathe, inhale/exhale, all of the breath noises"...Air.

For those who wrote off those chant sessions as stoned experiments, is it a coincidence that once these guys got focused on a theme that didn't involve comedy skits, they chanted and breathed and hummed and whatever else around the themes of those three elements other than fire.

I never saw that as accidental. What i did see it as was almost a tragic loss of whatever creative spark Brian and his buddies had that night, because once they got going and jelled together, some of it makes for compelling listening, especially the "water" sounds when studio effects and echoes/reverbs were added to the vocal montages. I think it's brilliant, and for whatever reason the closest actual use of those sounds we ever got was Cool Cool Water on Sunflower, and even on that apparently Brian was really against the band using the chanting on the new track to the point of asking them not to do it. (Corrections on that welcome, as always)

Air as a piano piece...Vosse mentioned the "tag" to Wind Chimes, the multilayered overdubbed piano section...at some point in time, 1966, why could that not have been considered as a musical section for the "air" element? As a musical tag, in the edits we've heard, is it welded to the actual Wind Chimes vocal track in any way, or could it just as easily have been moved and used elsewhere? It could have been, it's definitely sounding like something "air" in nature, and it lines up with what Brian called "a piano piece" that was never finished.

Wind Chimes survived structurally and lyrically on Smiley Smile, but this original "tag" did not, replaced by the whispering winds vocal outtro and fade. Which suggests it may have been more than a tag and may have been interchangeable to serve another musical purpose. It wasn't crucial to the actual song, it was a "tag". Or was it "air"?

[The_Holy_Bee]

When the "psychodelic sounds" chanting session happened, Brian and those with him already knew what the "fire" element was musically. Consider that once Brian got away from the humor skits, the falling into the microphone and Good Humor and falling into the piano comedy, he focused the assembled chanters into what to my ears has always sounded like three elements.

Not true - or at least, not true according to the record as we have it. The Psycodelic Sounds session happened on 4th Nov. The "Fire" recording session happened on 28 Nov (as I posted above), almost a month later. If you have data supporting "Brian... already knew what the "fire" element was musically" on the fourth of November 1966, I'd be genuinely thrilled to learn it. 

[guitarfool2002]

When the "psychodelic sounds" chanting session happened, Brian and those with him already knew what the "fire" element was musically. Consider that once Brian got away from the humor skits, the falling into the microphone and Good Humor and falling into the piano comedy, he focused the assembled chanters into what to my ears has always sounded like three elements.

Not true - or at least, not true according to the record as we have it. The Psycodelic Sounds session happened on 4th Nov. The "Fire" recording session happened on 28 Nov (as I posted above), almost a month later. If you have data supporting "Brian... already knew what the "fire" element was musically" on the fourth of November 1966, I'd be genuinely thrilled to learn it.  

What record as we have it states exactly when in 1966 Brian created and developed the Fire music, or even the concept that "Fire" was to be an instrumental piece? Brian and Van Dyke were working off and on that fall, some weeks doing back-to-back sessions four or more days each week, in October alone there were three weeks that were basically filled with sessions for Smile music...when was all of that written? Not recorded, but written? Some sources say "Surf's Up" was written minus some final lyrics as early as the summer of '66, yet wasn't actually taken into a recording session until November. So does that mean Brian didn't know what "Surf's Up" was conceptually until he actually recorded take 1 in the studio? Of course not.

Can we see where the logic of something like Surf's Up being written months before it first got a recording session would open up the "Fire" issue more than assuming it was conceived and written the week of or even the month of the studio session when it was recorded?

I do love it how sometimes in these discussions one sentence out of many gets pulled out, then the fact-checking machine starts cranking up, made even more confusing in this case where the discussion is centered around nothing but fantasy versions of Smile that only exist in the minds of fan-mixers, not to mention trying to find every which way to bend and shape the actual evidence that does exist from Smile (like the only tracklist that exists from 1966 which we know of) in order to fit some fantasy running order or self-styled notion of what the album was going to be or what songs were going to represent this or that. It's entertaining, at least.  

I'd suggest trying to see the forest instead of the trees, hopefully some others reading this might go back to the chants and hear something new or at least get a different take on them, perhaps a more 'elemental' take on what they were beyond stoned studio hijinks.

Unless it was a pure accident and coincidence that three of the chants were centered on the three elements that up to 2004 did not have specific music to represent them, but rather those three elements had only theories and suppositions as to what they may have been.

I mean...they do chant and riff on things related to water, air, and earth on those November '66 tapes...right? And we're trying to find any evidence of something "elemental" in songs that have no relationship at all to any elements? Hmmm.  

[stlabc]

My mix

https://youtu.be/yXjLo3mYVVI

https://youtu.be/Z5Y03Yldd8w

https://youtu.be/10lsycE9t1k

https://youtu.be/aYtjCZTBDWI

https://youtu.be/7HTiVweBCv8

https://youtu.be/DoFi59asxZ4