Carl and Mike's relationship

[Mike's Beard]

Runners, I don't think Mike fully understood Brian's new creative process for the last 15 years and was disappointed to see how things had changed. Brian wrote songs with Mike in the 1990s but nothing much came out of that, the Baywatch nights song was apparently horrible.

That was twenty years ago, though. Folks' sense of time gets totally warped when talking about music, for some reason. It's like yeah, their last album of original material was Summer In Paradise, but it was 21 years ago and done under totally different circumstances. Also, we've never heard the Mike and Brian 90s songs, have we?

Also, I'm not sayin' Mike and Brian should write the entire album and should do so with zero input from others, but I do think it'd be cool to see what initial results could come of that. Have the band write and THEN have a Joe Thomas or a Scott Bennett character come in with suggestions and possibly revisions and editing if need be, but try to be as hands off as possible. And hey, if Brian and Joe Thomas or whoever write something really cool, toss that into the hat of possibilities as well. I don't know, I think this approach is worlds simpler and would get better results overall.

I think it could result in the Beach Boys actually being closer to being a band of human beings again as opposed to what they are now: a bunch of different corporate entities and camps whom are constantly being spiteful to one another and trying to one up the other guy back and forth. It's all totally cold, sterile, and too much attention is given to the "people" around the band, the money, the egos etc. rather than five human beings and their songs. I just feel like we'd be seeing a lot more peace and a functional group again as opposed to the clusterfuck of now.

Mike and Brian wrote "Warmth Of The Sun" in one night at Brian's house at his piano. Just two guys in a house with a piano. "Surfin'" was written by a bunch of kids in a garage for the love of playing music, nothing more. I'm not saying they're gonna come up with things as good as "Warmth Of The Sun", that's almost irrelevant to everything I said, I'd just like to see some simplicity brought back into the picture.

Great post. Why have they made it so complicated? Why can't Brian call Mike up and say "I've got some new tunes I've been working on, do you want to call by on X day and try some things?" We have to face the fact that either Brian doesn't want to or his managment are still putting obstacles in his path to stop it from happening.

[Cam Mott]

Runners, I don't think Mike fully understood Brian's new creative process for the last 15 years and was disappointed to see how things had changed. Brian wrote songs with Mike in the 1990s but nothing much came out of that, the Baywatch nights song was apparently horrible.

That was twenty years ago, though. Folks' sense of time gets totally warped when talking about music, for some reason. It's like yeah, their last album of original material was Summer In Paradise, but it was 21 years ago and done under totally different circumstances. Also, we've never heard the Mike and Brian 90s songs, have we?

Also, I'm not sayin' Mike and Brian should write the entire album and should do so with zero input from others, but I do think it'd be cool to see what initial results could come of that. Have the band write and THEN have a Joe Thomas or a Scott Bennett character come in with suggestions and possibly revisions and editing if need be, but try to be as hands off as possible. And hey, if Brian and Joe Thomas or whoever write something really cool, toss that into the hat of possibilities as well. I don't know, I think this approach is worlds simpler and would get better results overall.

I think it could result in the Beach Boys actually being closer to being a band of human beings again as opposed to what they are now: a bunch of different corporate entities and camps whom are constantly being spiteful to one another and trying to one up the other guy back and forth. It's all totally cold, sterile, and too much attention is given to the "people" around the band, the money, the egos etc. rather than five human beings and their songs. I just feel like we'd be seeing a lot more peace and a functional group again as opposed to the clusterfuck of now.

Mike and Brian wrote "Warmth Of The Sun" in one night at Brian's house at his piano. Just two guys in a house with a piano. "Surfin'" was written by a bunch of kids in a garage for the love of playing music, nothing more. I'm not saying they're gonna come up with things as good as "Warmth Of The Sun", that's almost irrelevant to everything I said, I'd just like to see some simplicity brought back into the picture.

Great post. Why have they made it so complicated? Why can't Brian call Mike up and say "I've got some new tunes I've been working on, do you want to call by on X day and try some things?" We have to face the fact that either Brian doesn't want to or his managment are still putting obstacles in his path to stop it from happening.

Agreed. At least Brian should stop leading Mike to believe something will happen if it's not.

[bgas]

Runners, I don't think Mike fully understood Brian's new creative process for the last 15 years and was disappointed to see how things had changed. Brian wrote songs with Mike in the 1990s but nothing much came out of that, the Baywatch nights song was apparently horrible.

That was twenty years ago, though. Folks' sense of time gets totally warped when talking about music, for some reason. It's like yeah, their last album of original material was Summer In Paradise, but it was 21 years ago and done under totally different circumstances. Also, we've never heard the Mike and Brian 90s songs, have we?

Also, I'm not sayin' Mike and Brian should write the entire album and should do so with zero input from others, but I do think it'd be cool to see what initial results could come of that. Have the band write and THEN have a Joe Thomas or a Scott Bennett character come in with suggestions and possibly revisions and editing if need be, but try to be as hands off as possible. And hey, if Brian and Joe Thomas or whoever write something really cool, toss that into the hat of possibilities as well. I don't know, I think this approach is worlds simpler and would get better results overall.

I think it could result in the Beach Boys actually being closer to being a band of human beings again as opposed to what they are now: a bunch of different corporate entities and camps whom are constantly being spiteful to one another and trying to one up the other guy back and forth. It's all totally cold, sterile, and too much attention is given to the "people" around the band, the money, the egos etc. rather than five human beings and their songs. I just feel like we'd be seeing a lot more peace and a functional group again as opposed to the clusterfuck of now.

Mike and Brian wrote "Warmth Of The Sun" in one night at Brian's house at his piano. Just two guys in a house with a piano. "Surfin'" was written by a bunch of kids in a garage for the love of playing music, nothing more. I'm not saying they're gonna come up with things as good as "Warmth Of The Sun", that's almost irrelevant to everything I said, I'd just like to see some simplicity brought back into the picture.

Great post. Why have they made it so complicated? Why can't Brian call Mike up and say "I've got some new tunes I've been working on, do you want to call by on X day and try some things?" We have to face the fact that either Brian doesn't want to or his managment are still putting obstacles in his path to stop it from happening.

Agreed. At least Brian should stop leading Mike to believe something will happen if it's not.

Who's to say he hasn't already done so, but Muike refuses to believe it. 

[Cam Mott]

Nobody. Nobody has said he has already done it.

[bgas]

Nobody. Nobody has said he has already done it.

Sure, that's right, it's Brian's fault for not telling the world what he says privately to Mike

[Cam Mott]

Nobody. Nobody has said he has already done it.

Sure, that's right, it's Brian's fault for not telling the world what he says privately to Mike

[laugh] Good one.

[clack]

Why didn't Carl use Mike as a lyricist? I know that that they did collaborate on a few songs, but those songs involved at least one other Beach Boy. You didn't get the C. Wilson-M. Love credit like you did the B. Wilson-M. Love , the A. Jardine-M. Love, or even, in a few cases, the D. Wilson-M. Love one. Carl, from the late 70's on, always -- with the exception of a Bruce collaboration -- used outside lyricists.

That has to tell us something about the Mike/Carl relationship, no?

[adamghost]

Why didn't Carl use Mike as a lyricist? I know that that they did collaborate on a few songs, but those songs involved at least one other Beach Boy. You didn't get the C. Wilson-M. Love credit like you did the B. Wilson-M. Love , the A. Jardine-M. Love, or even, in a few cases, the D. Wilson-M. Love one. Carl, from the late 70's on, always -- with the exception of a Bruce collaboration -- used outside lyricists.

That has to tell us something about the Mike/Carl relationship, no?

It might tell us that Carl didn't like Mike's lyrics and/or didn't find them surprising.  And given his choice in lyricists, ranging from competent (e.g. Cushing-Murray) to verbose (Rieley), but none of them having Mike's moon-june flair for simplicity, that's probably the most likely explanation.

[Myk Luhv]

Mike is a better lyricist than either of those people. Or at least was once upon a time. Anyone can be forgiven not wanting to work with Mike post-'78/79, I guess, since he seems to have quit trying.

[adamghost]

I have to admit one thing about Mike's constant demand that he and Brian sit down together and write kinda irks me.  It comes from personal experience.  I used to have a bass player in my own band who always complained I would never let him cowrite with me.  And I said, fine, bring me some lyrics, bring me a riff, bring me some ideas, bring in your own song.  And he always had the same refrain:  no, he wanted to sit down and write head to head and collaborate.

Except that what he REALLY wanted to do was to get in a situation where we were together "collaborating" but I was writing 90% of the song, but he stuck a few ideas in, and got to claim 50% credit and say he cowrote the thing.  And being that songwriting is -- well, was at that time -- hard work, I kinda resented that.  I wanted to see equal effort for equal credit.

So when Brian sends Mike a track to write lyrics to, and Mike refuses, I have to wonder if it's because Mike just knows he can't do it without someone else in the room to help him out, but doesn't want to say so.  And it's well established that he went back and claimed songwriting credit on many songs where he made pretty minimal contributions (not "California Girls," but "Wouldn't It Be Nice" for example).

I may well be being unfair to Mike, who I agree wrote some ace lyrics back in the day, and I admit I'm biased by my own personal experience.  But just offering this up for consideration from a songwriter's point of view.  Mike definitely likes to publicly take credit and point out his songwriting success -- but he was one of four writers on "Kokomo" and didn't originate the song, and so forth and on and on.

[Nicko1234]

Why didn't Carl use Mike as a lyricist? I know that that they did collaborate on a few songs, but those songs involved at least one other Beach Boy. You didn't get the C. Wilson-M. Love credit like you did the B. Wilson-M. Love , the A. Jardine-M. Love, or even, in a few cases, the D. Wilson-M. Love one. Carl, from the late 70's on, always -- with the exception of a Bruce collaboration -- used outside lyricists.

That has to tell us something about the Mike/Carl relationship, no?

They wrote one or two things that were recorded in 1974 didn't they? I've no idea whether the recordings still exist or were destroyed.

I think the only thing to be read into them not collaborating in the 80s and 90s is maybe that The Beach Boys was a business at this point and the members didn't want to work together on anything much at all. How many songs were collaborations between any of the band members after KTSA? Crack at your Love, Male Ego and Somewhere Near Japan (Al has since said he doesn't remember Brian having anything to do with California Calling) and that's it.

[Nicko1234]

So when Brian sends Mike a track to write lyrics to, and Mike refuses, I have to wonder if it's because Mike just knows he can't do it without someone else in the room to help him out, but doesn't want to say so.  And it's well established that he went back and claimed songwriting credit on many songs where he made pretty minimal contributions (not "California Girls," but "Wouldn't It Be Nice" for example).

I may well be being unfair to Mike, who I agree wrote some ace lyrics back in the day, and I admit I'm biased by my own personal experience.  But just offering this up for consideration from a songwriter's point of view.  Mike definitely likes to publicly take credit and point out his songwriting success -- but he was one of four writers on "Kokomo" and didn't originate the song, and so forth and on and on.

I would really doubt that to be honest.

Firstly because while Mike has many faults, I don't think a lack of self-belief is one of them.

But also because I really doubt that Mike would think, 'I need Brian to write some of the lyrics for me' (which happened anyway on Spring Vacation). Mike wrote quite a few new songs for Unleash the Love and his style of writing doesn't exactly rely heavily on inspiration.

Some people simply much prefer writing nose to nose. For example, the guitarist Tom Verlaine was given the chance to write with Morrissey years ago but turned it down due to Morrissey's style of writing the words separately. I guess it happens a lot.

[adamghost]

So when Brian sends Mike a track to write lyrics to, and Mike refuses, I have to wonder if it's because Mike just knows he can't do it without someone else in the room to help him out, but doesn't want to say so.  And it's well established that he went back and claimed songwriting credit on many songs where he made pretty minimal contributions (not "California Girls," but "Wouldn't It Be Nice" for example).

I may well be being unfair to Mike, who I agree wrote some ace lyrics back in the day, and I admit I'm biased by my own personal experience.  But just offering this up for consideration from a songwriter's point of view.  Mike definitely likes to publicly take credit and point out his songwriting success -- but he was one of four writers on "Kokomo" and didn't originate the song, and so forth and on and on.

I would really doubt that to be honest.

Firstly because while Mike has many faults, I don't think a lack of self-belief is one of them.

But also because I really doubt that Mike would think, 'I need Brian to write some of the lyrics for me' (which happened anyway on Spring Vacation). Mike wrote quite a few new songs for Unleash the Love and his style of writing doesn't exactly rely heavily on inspiration.

Some people simply much prefer writing nose to nose. For example, the guitarist Tom Verlaine was given the chance to write with Morrissey years ago but turned it down due to Morrissey's style of writing the words separately. I guess it happens a lot.

M-m-maybe.  I'd just comment that outward self-belief takes place at one level of consciousness, and knowing one's own limits often at another.

But, lol...what do I know!  At a certain point it all becomes a parlor game.

[Cam Mott]

So when Brian sends Mike a track to write lyrics to, and Mike refuses, I have to wonder if it's because Mike just knows he can't do it without someone else in the room to help him out, but doesn't want to say so.  And it's well established that he went back and claimed songwriting credit on many songs where he made pretty minimal contributions (not "California Girls," but "Wouldn't It Be Nice" for example).

I may well be being unfair to Mike, who I agree wrote some ace lyrics back in the day, and I admit I'm biased by my own personal experience.  But just offering this up for consideration from a songwriter's point of view.  Mike definitely likes to publicly take credit and point out his songwriting success -- but he was one of four writers on "Kokomo" and didn't originate the song, and so forth and on and on.

I would really doubt that to be honest.

Firstly because while Mike has many faults, I don't think a lack of self-belief is one of them.

But also because I really doubt that Mike would think, 'I need Brian to write some of the lyrics for me' (which happened anyway on Spring Vacation). Mike wrote quite a few new songs for Unleash the Love and his style of writing doesn't exactly rely heavily on inspiration.

Some people simply much prefer writing nose to nose. For example, the guitarist Tom Verlaine was given the chance to write with Morrissey years ago but turned it down due to Morrissey's style of writing the words separately. I guess it happens a lot.

M-m-maybe.  I'd just comment that outward self-belief takes place at one level of consciousness, and knowing one's own limits often at another.

But, lol...what do I know!  At a certain point it all becomes a parlor game.

Mike wrote Good Vibrations in a car on the way to the studio and California Girls in the hallway at the studio, Mike obviously doesn't need to be in a room with Brian. Another thing is, as far as is known, it is Brian coming to Mike not the other way around and telling Mike he wants them to write together.

[Nicko1234]

M-m-maybe.  I'd just comment that outward self-belief takes place at one level of consciousness, and knowing one's own limits often at another.

But, lol...what do I know!  At a certain point it all becomes a parlor game.

Perhaps but I would have thought that if Mike did have doubts about writing an entire lyric that he would want to replicate the situation that they had with something like Isn't It Time. Other writers do some of the work but Mike still gets a credit.

As you say though, what do we know.  

[clack]

I guess Mike wants a creative collaboration.

He doesn't have to be sitting in the same room with Brian working on a song from scratch, but neither does he want (I'm guessing)  a make-work assignment from Brian and Joe Thomas : "Hey Mike, we composed the tune, selected the title and the subject matter, and wrote the chorus and most of the verses, but we've left a verse for you to write, just so we can have a Wilson-Thomas-Love credit."

But I don't know if Mike can even write a lyric nowadays that doesn't have a theme of 1) let's have fun in the sun,  2) remember those times in the past when we had fun in the sun? let's do that again, or 3) don't mess up the ocean environment.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

We've all heard the story of how Brian and Mike wrote Warmth Of The Sun together in a room late late at night....

Mike probably wants that experience again....

We would too if we could claim to have even farted in the general direction of such an amazing song...

[Doo Dah]

I guess Mike wants a creative collaboration.


But I don't know if Mike can even write a lyric nowadays that doesn't have a theme of 1) let's have fun in the sun,  2) remember those times in the past when we had fun in the sun? let's do that again, or 3) don't mess up the ocean environment.

Let's have some fun at the beach
Like we used to do
Make sure we pick up our trash when we go    

[Mike's Beard]

I have to admit one thing about Mike's constant demand that he and Brian sit down together and write kinda irks me.  It comes from personal experience.  I used to have a bass player in my own band who always complained I would never let him cowrite with me.  And I said, fine, bring me some lyrics, bring me a riff, bring me some ideas, bring in your own song.  And he always had the same refrain:  no, he wanted to sit down and write head to head and collaborate.

Except that what he REALLY wanted to do was to get in a situation where we were together "collaborating" but I was writing 90% of the song, but he stuck a few ideas in, and got to claim 50% credit and say he cowrote the thing.  And being that songwriting is -- well, was at that time -- hard work, I kinda resented that.  I wanted to see equal effort for equal credit.

So when Brian sends Mike a track to write lyrics to, and Mike refuses, I have to wonder if it's because Mike just knows he can't do it without someone else in the room to help him out, but doesn't want to say so.  And it's well established that he went back and claimed songwriting credit on many songs where he made pretty minimal contributions (not "California Girls," but "Wouldn't It Be Nice" for example).

I may well be being unfair to Mike, who I agree wrote some ace lyrics back in the day, and I admit I'm biased by my own personal experience.  But just offering this up for consideration from a songwriter's point of view.  Mike definitely likes to publicly take credit and point out his songwriting success -- but he was one of four writers on "Kokomo" and didn't originate the song, and so forth and on and on.

Some people can't write from a 'blank page' perspective, they need an initial idea from someone else to get their creative juices flowing. I get the feeling this is how Mike often works.

[adamghost]

There's an interesting segment in the M.I.U. documentary where Al and Mike are working on the lyrics to "Kona Coast."  It's pretty enlightening as to this kind of creative process (even though some of it is probably staged).

[Nicko1234]

But I don't know if Mike can even write a lyric nowadays that doesn't have a theme of 1) let's have fun in the sun,  2) remember those times in the past when we had fun in the sun? let's do that again, or 3) don't mess up the ocean environment.

Yeah, he can. He just chooses to write like that because he believes that to be The Beach Boys' formula.

The solo stuff he wrote for Unleash the Love is nothing like that generally.

[Cam Mott]

Deleted and moved again by me for being off topic.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I think you forgot a few fads and circumstances they also exploited?/used to their advantage in the earlier hitmaking part of their career.

Such as?

Car culture, motorbikes, skateboarding, Santa Claus, and Psychedelia would be my examples.

They didn't write any songs about psychedelia as far as I know. But you are sort of correct about car culture, in a way although the car song has pretty much always been a more of an ongoing topic of American pop music rather than a fad. I also wouldn't call Santa Claus a fad.

Pet Sounds is considered the first (or at least, the precursor to) psychedelic rock album. SMiLE is about as psychedelic rock/pop as you get.

[drbeachboy]

I think you forgot a few fads and circumstances they also exploited?/used to their advantage in the earlier hitmaking part of their career.

Such as?

Car culture, motorbikes, skateboarding, Santa Claus, and Psychedelia would be my examples.

They didn't write any songs about psychedelia as far as I know. But you are sort of correct about car culture, in a way although the car song has pretty much always been a more of an ongoing topic of American pop music rather than a fad. I also wouldn't call Santa Claus a fad.

Pet Sounds is considered the first (or at least, the precursor to) psychedelic rock album. SMiLE is about as psychedelic rock/pop as you get.

Pet Sounds is not about psychedelia, as say Little Deuce Coupe is about a car or cars. Also, I find Lennon's songs on Rubber Soul are more psychedelic than anything on Pet Sounds and it was 1/2 year or so earlier.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I think you forgot a few fads and circumstances they also exploited?/used to their advantage in the earlier hitmaking part of their career.

Such as?

Car culture, motorbikes, skateboarding, Santa Claus, and Psychedelia would be my examples.

They didn't write any songs about psychedelia as far as I know. But you are sort of correct about car culture, in a way although the car song has pretty much always been a more of an ongoing topic of American pop music rather than a fad. I also wouldn't call Santa Claus a fad.

Pet Sounds is considered the first (or at least, the precursor to) psychedelic rock album. SMiLE is about as psychedelic rock/pop as you get.

Pet Sounds is not about psychedelia, as say Little Deuce Coupe is about a car or cars. Also, I find Lennon's songs on Rubber Soul are more psychedelic than anything on Pet Sounds and it was 1/2 year or so earlier.

Hang onto your Ego/I Know There's an Answer is about tripping. The backing tracks of PS are very complex and evocative which foreshadowed the psychedelic wall of sound in 1967. What's psychedelic about RS?