Carl and Mike's relationship

[BergenWhitesMoustache]

One thing I've noticed about 'bad' Beach Boys albums is that up to a point they all have some pretty bang on material on them.

I mean- 15 Big Ones, I LOVE, despite it's deficiencies (everyones in love with you, back home, few too many covers), but I have to admit it's still a 2 or 3 out of 5.

BUT it's got 'it's ok' 'rock n roll music' 'had to phone ya'...those are some pretty high, high points

[Wah Wah Wah Ooooo]

I too have always enjoyed 15BO. The 15BO/Love You twofer is actually one of my most played on itunes.

[Nicko1234]

The line in bold print may be where opinions we agree on start to drift apart, hear me out: What you say is correct, to a point, because once again it has to be remembered that at the same time we had all the Summer In Paradise and Baywatch and Problem Child debacles and missteps coming out, we also had the CD releases of the classic albums for the first time, as well as a continued buzz about the Pet Sounds CD release. I remember that well, and while not on the mass appeal level of 1987 when I witnessed people lining up at record stores to get the newest crop of Beatles releases on CD, there were a lot of people seriously getting into the *music* of the Beach Boys through those albums which they could buy for the first time on CD, and that legacy was alive and well, and serving the band quite well, thank you.

I completely agree that the legacy was alive and well but I'm not sure exactly which period we are talking about now or what course you are saying the band should have taken. What I mean by that is that from 1986 onwards Brian was playing a lesser and lesser role in the group which basically meant Mike had to choose whether they kept recording or just became an oldies act. I would guess that he knew they would need some boost in order to have any chart success which led to the duets and movie songs (and of course they made money off some of these things too). After Kokomo and Still Cruisin' were both successful I think it was inevitable the band would record another album and that Terry Melcher would produce it.

Although I'm sure there were many people getting into the Beach Boys music when the twofers were re-released in 1990 and when Pet Sounds was reissued, it is still shocking that Pet Sounds didn't go gold until 2000 (I think that's right).

When you write "keep the band in the public eye", I'd suggest a better phrase would be "keep Mike in the public eye".

As a distant observer and fan, a lot of what gets done and said seems more about Mike's desire to be in the spotlight than it does any notion of the band or the legacy.

Sorry, I cut some bits from your post just to make it easier to quote.

I don't think Mike is too bothered about the legacy at all. I think he is more concerned with the here and now.

Due to Mike's ego I can imagine that there were times during the C50 tour that maybe he did begrudge Brian his cheers and so-forth. But Mike was very much the central figure on stage in terms of the number of leads that he sang and his roles as the MC and front man.

I honestly think that bigger concerns for Mike would be that he would rather tour more simply than acquiesce to Brian's demands, would rather have his son play rhythm guitar than Al and that he would rather not have his wife around so that he can have sex with whoever he chooses. I could be wrong though.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

As the years wore on and Mike ran out of highly creative and motivated collaborators (Brian, Carl, Dennis), bandleaders, he had basically two choices: 1. let the band collapse, or 2. focus on what he did well: lead singer/front-man, lyricist (if there's anyone around with a good song idea) .... So, under the circumstances, he chose option 2: .... everything past that point was basically just an excuse to keep the ball rolling so that he could continue to be the lead singer of the Beach Boys for concerts ...... Can we really blame him? It was the 80's and basically all of The Beach Boys contemporaries were either dead, in turmoil or sucking massive balls.... When taken in the context of the times, The Beach Boys come out rather well. I mean, Kokomo, Still Cruising, Somewhere Near Japan, Rock And Roll To The Rescue:  not bad stuff at all.

[Nicko1234]

sweetdudejim, I agree with you 100%. That's the way they should've gone, no doubt about it. The point I am making, and have been making for years, is that even though they made a mistake with 15 Big Ones, and took a hit with it to some extent, they were still very much alive. It was still 1976 and they were still riding high - literally. But, instead of moving forward from 15 Big Ones and recording that artistic, post-Holland, blah blah blah album, they did Love You and the game was over. There was still a chance AFTER 15 Big Ones is my point I guess.

There was still some chance but I guess the unanswerable question is, how turned off were the American public by 15 Big Ones itself and by Brian's TV performances? In the songwriter DVD someone (PA Carlin?) states that those appearances by Brian giving dire performances of Back Home and Love is a Woman turned off the entire nation and made people realize that they had been had. So even an artistic, quality album may have struggled after that perhaps.

Love You was clearly the wrong way to go though if they had any hope of selling any records...

[Nicko1234]

As the years wore on and Mike ran out of highly creative and motivated collaborators (Brian, Carl, Dennis), bandleaders, he had basically two choices: 1. let the band collapse, or 2. focus on what he did well: lead singer/front-man, lyricist (if there's anyone around with a good song idea) .... So, under the circumstances, he chose option 2: .... everything past that point was basically just an excuse to keep the ball rolling so that he could continue to be the lead singer of the Beach Boys for concerts ...... Can we really blame him? It was the 80's and basically all of The Beach Boys contemporaries were either dead, in turmoil or sucking massive balls.... When taken in the context of the times, The Beach Boys come out rather well. I mean, Kokomo, Still Cruising, Somewhere Near Japan, Rock And Roll To The Rescue:  not bad stuff at all.

I think that's oversimplifying things a little.

He could have had the band continue touring the oldies with no interest in new material (which is essentially what happened from 1998 to 2011), he could have accepted submissions from other songwriters for the band or he could have done as he did.

The success of Kokomo proved that they were right (in the 1980s at least) not to pick the first option (irrespective of what fans may think of the song). If they'd combined some Mike songs with songs from other songwriters then the quality would probably have been higher but maybe it would have sounded even less like The Beach Boys than it did.

[Sheriff John Stone]

sweetdudejim, I agree with you 100%. That's the way they should've gone, no doubt about it. The point I am making, and have been making for years, is that even though they made a mistake with 15 Big Ones, and took a hit with it to some extent, they were still very much alive. It was still 1976 and they were still riding high - literally. But, instead of moving forward from 15 Big Ones and recording that artistic, post-Holland, blah blah blah album, they did Love You and the game was over. There was still a chance AFTER 15 Big Ones is my point I guess.

There was still some chance but I guess the unanswerable question is, how turned off were the American public by 15 Big Ones itself and by Brian's TV performances? In the songwriter DVD someone (PA Carlin?) states that those appearances by Brian giving dire performances of Back Home and Love is a Woman turned off the entire nation and made people realize that they had been had. So even an artistic, quality album may have struggled after that perhaps.

Love You was clearly the wrong way to go though if they had any hope of selling any records...

There's no question that Brian's reputation took a hit after those 1976 TV appearances and his work on 15 Big Ones. But the Brian Wilson "genius mystique" was still very strong, and there were still so many unanswered questions - what the hell is wrong with that guy? - that he kind of got a mulligan. His appearance alone was so startling that it fed into that mystique.

What is also ironic is that while The Beach Boys Love You was the wrong album at the wrong time, it did receive some excellent reviews and kept the "Brian is Back" talk alive. Love You tanked, more Endless Summer fans left the fold, the band was starting on a downward spiral, but, oddly enough, if you were a Brian Wilson diehard, you were optimistic. Each new photograph showed more weight loss, his hair got shorter and cleaner, he played more bass and sang more lead vocals in concert, and you couldn't wait for the next album. Ho hum....

[Cam Mott]

As the years wore on and Mike ran out of highly creative and motivated collaborators (Brian, Carl, Dennis), bandleaders, he had basically two choices: 1. let the band collapse, or 2. focus on what he did well: lead singer/front-man, lyricist (if there's anyone around with a good song idea) .... So, under the circumstances, he chose option 2: .... everything past that point was basically just an excuse to keep the ball rolling so that he could continue to be the lead singer of the Beach Boys for concerts ...... Can we really blame him? It was the 80's and basically all of The Beach Boys contemporaries were either dead, in turmoil or sucking massive balls.... When taken in the context of the times, The Beach Boys come out rather well. I mean, Kokomo, Still Cruising, Somewhere Near Japan, Rock And Roll To The Rescue:  not bad stuff at all.

Makes a lot of sense.

[Cam Mott]

sweetdudejim, I agree with you 100%. That's the way they should've gone, no doubt about it. The point I am making, and have been making for years, is that even though they made a mistake with 15 Big Ones, and took a hit with it to some extent, they were still very much alive. It was still 1976 and they were still riding high - literally. But, instead of moving forward from 15 Big Ones and recording that artistic, post-Holland, blah blah blah album, they did Love You and the game was over. There was still a chance AFTER 15 Big Ones is my point I guess.

There was still some chance but I guess the unanswerable question is, how turned off were the American public by 15 Big Ones itself and by Brian's TV performances? In the songwriter DVD someone (PA Carlin?) states that those appearances by Brian giving dire performances of Back Home and Love is a Woman turned off the entire nation and made people realize that they had been had. So even an artistic, quality album may have struggled after that perhaps.

Love You was clearly the wrong way to go though if they had any hope of selling any records...

15BO went to #8, how is that a turned off public?

[Lonely Summer]

sweetdudejim, I agree with you 100%. That's the way they should've gone, no doubt about it. The point I am making, and have been making for years, is that even though they made a mistake with 15 Big Ones, and took a hit with it to some extent, they were still very much alive. It was still 1976 and they were still riding high - literally. But, instead of moving forward from 15 Big Ones and recording that artistic, post-Holland, blah blah blah album, they did Love You and the game was over. There was still a chance AFTER 15 Big Ones is my point I guess.

There was still some chance but I guess the unanswerable question is, how turned off were the American public by 15 Big Ones itself and by Brian's TV performances? In the songwriter DVD someone (PA Carlin?) states that those appearances by Brian giving dire performances of Back Home and Love is a Woman turned off the entire nation and made people realize that they had been had. So even an artistic, quality album may have struggled after that perhaps.

Love You was clearly the wrong way to go though if they had any hope of selling any records...

15BO went to #8, how is that a turned off public?

I'm guessing they bought it because they liked the Rock And Roll Music single, and also because they were expecting a return to the sound heard on Endless Summer and Spirit of America. When 1BO failed to deliver, the fans stopped buying BB's albums. 15BO was also a staple of the cutout bins for years after - joined there shortly after by Love You and MIU.

[Mike's Beard]

sweetdudejim, I agree with you 100%. That's the way they should've gone, no doubt about it. The point I am making, and have been making for years, is that even though they made a mistake with 15 Big Ones, and took a hit with it to some extent, they were still very much alive. It was still 1976 and they were still riding high - literally. But, instead of moving forward from 15 Big Ones and recording that artistic, post-Holland, blah blah blah album, they did Love You and the game was over. There was still a chance AFTER 15 Big Ones is my point I guess.

There was still some chance but I guess the unanswerable question is, how turned off were the American public by 15 Big Ones itself and by Brian's TV performances? In the songwriter DVD someone (PA Carlin?) states that those appearances by Brian giving dire performances of Back Home and Love is a Woman turned off the entire nation and made people realize that they had been had. So even an artistic, quality album may have struggled after that perhaps.

Love You was clearly the wrong way to go though if they had any hope of selling any records...

15BO went to #8, how is that a turned off public?

The public bought it expecting classic Beach Boys and instead got a weak, hodge podge album. It entered high but soon dropped out of sight, subsquent albums bombed and the follow up single from it underperformed.
What's maddening is at the time the band had either in the can or at least demoed Pacific Ocean Blues, River Song, Rainbows, Angel Come Home, Glow Cresent Glow and California Feeling. That's half a fantasic album right there. But no, they had to go with the 'fun' direction.The band really squandered their chance to make a great comeback.

[Myk Luhv]

If releasing this fantasy "fantastic album" some of you speak of would mean there then wouldn't be Love You, I say: Bring on 15 Big Ones. For as shitty as 3/4 of that album is... I wouldn't want to live in a world without Love You!

[Nicko1234]

sweetdudejim, I agree with you 100%. That's the way they should've gone, no doubt about it. The point I am making, and have been making for years, is that even though they made a mistake with 15 Big Ones, and took a hit with it to some extent, they were still very much alive. It was still 1976 and they were still riding high - literally. But, instead of moving forward from 15 Big Ones and recording that artistic, post-Holland, blah blah blah album, they did Love You and the game was over. There was still a chance AFTER 15 Big Ones is my point I guess.

There was still some chance but I guess the unanswerable question is, how turned off were the American public by 15 Big Ones itself and by Brian's TV performances? In the songwriter DVD someone (PA Carlin?) states that those appearances by Brian giving dire performances of Back Home and Love is a Woman turned off the entire nation and made people realize that they had been had. So even an artistic, quality album may have struggled after that perhaps.

Love You was clearly the wrong way to go though if they had any hope of selling any records...

15BO went to #8, how is that a turned off public?

The public bought it expecting classic Beach Boys and instead got a weak, hodge podge album. It entered high but soon dropped out of sight, subsquent albums bombed and the follow up single from it underperformed.
What's maddening is at the time the band had either in the can or at least demoed Pacific Ocean Blues, River Song, Rainbows, Angel Come Home, Glow Cresent Glow and California Feeling. That's half a fantasic album right there. But no, they had to go with the 'fun' direction.The band really squandered their chance to make a great comeback.

This.

[guitarfool2002]

sweetdudejim, I agree with you 100%. That's the way they should've gone, no doubt about it. The point I am making, and have been making for years, is that even though they made a mistake with 15 Big Ones, and took a hit with it to some extent, they were still very much alive. It was still 1976 and they were still riding high - literally. But, instead of moving forward from 15 Big Ones and recording that artistic, post-Holland, blah blah blah album, they did Love You and the game was over. There was still a chance AFTER 15 Big Ones is my point I guess.

There was still some chance but I guess the unanswerable question is, how turned off were the American public by 15 Big Ones itself and by Brian's TV performances? In the songwriter DVD someone (PA Carlin?) states that those appearances by Brian giving dire performances of Back Home and Love is a Woman turned off the entire nation and made people realize that they had been had. So even an artistic, quality album may have struggled after that perhaps.

Love You was clearly the wrong way to go though if they had any hope of selling any records...

15BO went to #8, how is that a turned off public?

The public bought it expecting classic Beach Boys and instead got a weak, hodge podge album. It entered high but soon dropped out of sight, subsquent albums bombed and the follow up single from it underperformed.
What's maddening is at the time the band had either in the can or at least demoed Pacific Ocean Blues, River Song, Rainbows, Angel Come Home, Glow Cresent Glow and California Feeling. That's half a fantasic album right there. But no, they had to go with the 'fun' direction.The band really squandered their chance to make a great comeback.

This.

This, exactly...now can some of the folks better understand why other fans might be a little miffed if not outright calling bullshit on Mike's comments about #3 being "not bad"?

They have been consistently squandering such chances to make something great for four decades! And when they did make a successful and well received comeback album last year, Mike most recently acted bitchy in an interview when asked about it.

Consider it was the highest charting album the Beach Boys had in the US since 1965, and the highest charting in the UK since 1970.

In light of that, and this most recent discussion on 15 B.O. and the rest, Mike's comments are even more foolish. And I'll continue to call them out any chance I get, call it a cause celebre for me because I liked the new album and Mike is both embarrassing himself and angering fans yet again when he could be celebrating the best charting album they've had in 40+ years.

And quite a respectable "comeback" effort too, considering how weak some of the previous comebacks have been.

[AndrewHickey]

If releasing this fantasy "fantastic album" some of you speak of would mean there then wouldn't be Love You, I say: Bring on 15 Big Ones. For as shitty as 3/4 of that album is... I wouldn't want to live in a world without Love You!

Absolutely.

[Myk Luhv]

And that quarter of an album rules: I will drunkenly fight anyone who hates on "It's OK", "Had To Phone Ya", "Chapel Of Love"*, "Talk To Me"**, "Pallisades Park"***, "Back Home", and "Just Once In My Life"!

* "Chapel Of Love" is great because Brian sounds like he desperately wants to believe what he's saying but doesn't exactly care enough to sing it. f*** you, it's great.
** "Talk To Me" kinda underwhelms as a song but I love the synth/horn/guitar (?) bit of instrumentation. If nothing else the album is very interesting texturally...
*** I wish this was sped up but it cooks man! Even Carl knows it! You hear that nasty synth/guitar stuff? Hell yeah.

The Beach Boys should've released EPs, I think they would've benefited from both the shorter running time (7 Big Ones EP, oh yes!) and the freedom to do one-off, quick things while working on albums.

"Back Home" is punk as f***. Brian gives no shits. You love it.

And "Sea Cruise" rules too. Why was this left off in favour of shitty songs by Mike and Al? AND WHERE IS THE 'HOT MIX' OF "ROCK AND ROLL MUSIC"

[Cam Mott]

Holland had gone to #36 and 15 BO went to #8 and LY to #53. I don't know if all of the fanecdotal justifications are true or not but it seems the public's support was pretty well expressed with its bucks. If I had a band I think this would tell me a story about my public support.

[Nicko1234]

And that quarter of an album rules: I will drunkenly fight anyone who hates on "It's OK", "Had To Phone Ya", "Chapel Of Love"*, "Talk To Me"**, "Pallisades Park"***, "Back Home", and "Just Once In My Life"!

* "Chapel Of Love" is great because Brian sounds like he desperately wants to believe what he's saying but doesn't exactly care enough to sing it. f*** you, it's great.
** "Talk To Me" kinda underwhelms as a song but I love the synth/horn/guitar (?) bit of instrumentation. If nothing else the album is very interesting texturally...
*** I wish this was sped up but it cooks man! Even Carl knows it! You hear that nasty synth/guitar stuff? Hell yeah.

The Beach Boys should've released EPs, I think they would've benefited from both the shorter running time (7 Big Ones EP, oh yes!) and the freedom to do one-off, quick things while working on albums.

"Back Home" is punk as f***. Brian gives no shits. You love it.

And "Sea Cruise" rules too. Why was this left off in favour of shitty songs by Mike and Al? AND WHERE IS THE 'HOT MIX' OF "ROCK AND ROLL MUSIC"

Start drinking in preparation. Chapel of Love and Back Home are pretty crappy.

The mix of Rock and Roll Music that Carl played on the radio was certainly superior to the single though.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Holland had gone to #36 and 15 BO went to #8 and LY to #53. I don't know if all of the fanecdotal justifications are true or not but it seems the public's support was pretty well expressed with its bucks. If I had a band I think this would tell me a story about my public support.

You are being surprisingly naive in your underestimating of the power of Endless Summer and Spirit Of America. While I love 15 Big Ones and Love You as much as anybody, their commercial success is almost directly related (i.e. riding the coattails) to fans wanting more fun in the sun classics. If you want a truer indication of the merits, or lack of, of 15 Big Ones and Love You, it might be more applicable to look at how many fans hung around for M.I.U. By that time many fans had enough of these new - or now "older" - Beach Boys and were content with the comps of the classic oldies.

I also wanted to mention that in addition to the 1976 NBC-TV special and Brian's TV appearances, Mike and Al appeared on the Mike Douglas TV show, the Beach Boys appeared on the cover of People magazine, Brian appeared on the cover of Rolling Stone, and there were other "greatest hits" albums surfacing.

[Cam Mott]

Holland had gone to #36 and 15 BO went to #8 and LY to #53. I don't know if all of the fanecdotal justifications are true or not but it seems the public's support was pretty well expressed with its bucks. If I had a band I think this would tell me a story about my public support.

You are being surprisingly naive in your underestimating of the power of Endless Summer and Spirit Of America. While I love 15 Big Ones and Love You as much as anybody, their commercial success is almost directly related (i.e. riding the coattails) to fans wanting more fun in the sun classics. If you want a truer indication of the merits, or lack of, of 15 Big Ones and Love You, it might be more applicable to look at how many fans hung around for M.I.U. By that time many fans had enough of these new - or now "older" - Beach Boys and were content with the comps of the classic oldies.

I also wanted to mention that in addition to the 1976 NBC-TV special and Brian's TV appearances, Mike and Al appeared on the Mike Douglas TV show, the Beach Boys appeared on the cover of People magazine, Brian appeared on the cover of Rolling Stone, and there were other "greatest hits" albums surfacing.

I'm not sure I understand you, I just posted the numbers for ES and SoA. The public wanted oldies, they still want oldies, they had been wanting oldies and they didn't want the Boys' new music so much. I agree the public did not want MIU either. Or Friends, 20/20, Sunflower, or CATP. What are you saying?

[Sheriff John Stone]

Holland had gone to #36 and 15 BO went to #8 and LY to #53. I don't know if all of the fanecdotal justifications are true or not but it seems the public's support was pretty well expressed with its bucks. If I had a band I think this would tell me a story about my public support.

You are being surprisingly naive in your underestimating of the power of Endless Summer and Spirit Of America. While I love 15 Big Ones and Love You as much as anybody, their commercial success is almost directly related (i.e. riding the coattails) to fans wanting more fun in the sun classics. If you want a truer indication of the merits, or lack of, of 15 Big Ones and Love You, it might be more applicable to look at how many fans hung around for M.I.U. By that time many fans had enough of these new - or now "older" - Beach Boys and were content with the comps of the classic oldies.

I also wanted to mention that in addition to the 1976 NBC-TV special and Brian's TV appearances, Mike and Al appeared on the Mike Douglas TV show, the Beach Boys appeared on the cover of People magazine, Brian appeared on the cover of Rolling Stone, and there were other "greatest hits" albums surfacing.

I'm not sure I understand you, I just posted the numbers for ES and SoA. The public wanted oldies, they still want oldies, they had been wanting oldies and they didn't want the Boys' new music so much. I agree the public did not want MIU either. Or Friends, 20/20, Sunflower, or CATP. What are you saying?

In your above post that I quoted, you listed 15 Big One's chart position of #8 and Love You's chart position of #53 and said "I think this would tell me a story about my public support". I am simply saying that those chart positions could be misleading because of the overwhelming success of Endless Summer and Spirit Of America and there was some serious "piggybacking" going on there. How do you think 15 Big Ones and Love You would of fared if they directly followed Holland WITHOUT the effects of Endless Summer and Spirit Of America? And I'll say again that I love 15 Big Ones and Love You....

[Cam Mott]

LY tanked, so I don't see an ES/SoA effect in effect for it.

ES and SoA were a success because the public supported oldies, 15BO had oldies and was supported. LY and MIU and other new music albums on either side [except SU] tanked. ES and SoA were supported because they were oldies. 15BO supported because it had oldies presumably. New music albums mostly tanked. That's the story as I see it. Oldies supported, new not. What am I missing?

[HeyJude]

LY tanked, so I don't see an ES/SoA effect in effect for it.

ES and SoA were a success because the public supported oldies, 15BO had oldies and was supported. LY and MIU and other new music albums on either side [except SU] tanked. ES and SoA were supported because they were oldies. 15BO supported because it had oldies presumably. New music albums mostly tanked. That's the story as I see it. Oldies supported, new not. What am I missing?

I’ve never sensed that “15 Big Ones” had the amount of “success” it did because it had oldies. If anything, it succeeded to the degree it did despite the presence of oldies (and despite a lot of things, including Brian’s voice, the clunky overall production, etc.). “15 Big Ones” seems to me to have had its level of success purely due to the amount of publicity the group had at the time due to press, TV appearances, etc. Had they released “MIU” or “Love You” or something else at the same time as 15BO, I think it would have had a similar amount of success. That 1976 era seems to have been one of the last times that the group were being afforded the opportunity of an eager public wanting *new* music due to publicity and the success of oldies in concert and on record. They squandered it, and more often than not from that point on tended to attempt some level of integrating “oldies” or a “retro” 60’s sound element into their albums, and never had much success album-wise until 2012.

I always figured that the public largely bought whatever was new from the BB’s in 1976, and they could have probably even gained more artistic credibility or critical acclaim by simply taking the tracks from the “Holland” album and repackaging them in a “15 Big Ones” sleeve. Lol……

[Jim V.]

sweetdudejim, I agree with you 100%. That's the way they should've gone, no doubt about it. The point I am making, and have been making for years, is that even though they made a mistake with 15 Big Ones, and took a hit with it to some extent, they were still very much alive. It was still 1976 and they were still riding high - literally. But, instead of moving forward from 15 Big Ones and recording that artistic, post-Holland, blah blah blah album, they did Love You and the game was over. There was still a chance AFTER 15 Big Ones is my point I guess.

There was still some chance but I guess the unanswerable question is, how turned off were the American public by 15 Big Ones itself and by Brian's TV performances? In the songwriter DVD someone (PA Carlin?) states that those appearances by Brian giving dire performances of Back Home and Love is a Woman turned off the entire nation and made people realize that they had been had. So even an artistic, quality album may have struggled after that perhaps.

Love You was clearly the wrong way to go though if they had any hope of selling any records...

15BO went to #8, how is that a turned off public?

It's funny that you say this, but at the same time support Mike when he badmouths how TWGMTR went to #3. Also, is it not obvious that a lot of people didn't give Love You a chance because of the supreme disappointment of 15 Big Ones? And isn't it also obvious that the public was turned onto 15 Big Ones because they were still buzzing over Endless Summer and the hype that the guy who made the classic music had returned? And then once they actually heard most of the music, they realized that those guys were washed up* and they were no longer interested, even if their next album after that (Love You) was actually quite good.

*I actually like 15 Big Ones, but there is no doubt that they (mostly Brian, Al, and Mike) squandered a golden opportunity to be even bigger than they were before.

[Cam Mott]

sweetdudejim, I agree with you 100%. That's the way they should've gone, no doubt about it. The point I am making, and have been making for years, is that even though they made a mistake with 15 Big Ones, and took a hit with it to some extent, they were still very much alive. It was still 1976 and they were still riding high - literally. But, instead of moving forward from 15 Big Ones and recording that artistic, post-Holland, blah blah blah album, they did Love You and the game was over. There was still a chance AFTER 15 Big Ones is my point I guess.

There was still some chance but I guess the unanswerable question is, how turned off were the American public by 15 Big Ones itself and by Brian's TV performances? In the songwriter DVD someone (PA Carlin?) states that those appearances by Brian giving dire performances of Back Home and Love is a Woman turned off the entire nation and made people realize that they had been had. So even an artistic, quality album may have struggled after that perhaps.

Love You was clearly the wrong way to go though if they had any hope of selling any records...

15BO went to #8, how is that a turned off public?

It's funny that you say this, but at the same time support Mike when he badmouths how TWGMTR went to #3. Also, is it not obvious that a lot of people didn't give Love You a chance because of the supreme disappointment of 15 Big Ones? And isn't it also obvious that the public was turned onto 15 Big Ones because they were still buzzing over Endless Summer and the hype that the guy who made the classic music had returned? And then once they actually heard most of the music, they realized that those guys were washed up* and they were no longer interested, even if their next album after that (Love You) was actually quite good.

*I actually like 15 Big Ones, but there is no doubt that they (mostly Brian, Al, and Mike) squandered a golden opportunity to be even bigger than they were before.

When did I support Mike's #3 comments? Mike has an opinion on their last album, big deal, everybody will take it the way they want to take it.

None of that is obvious to me. The charts show what they show, the rest is conjecture.

I'm not a particular fan of 15BO or LY. I skip the oldies on 15BO, they make me cringe. My opinion on that doesn't matter. But my opinion is Brian [and presumably Mike and Al] was right about 15BO and people don't ignore or not buy new music because old music is available, if they want it they get both. I have never not bought someone's new music because I enjoyed their old music or their old music was also available in a flashy comp. People just did not support their new music and that can't be blamed on oldies imo.